S08.E05: The Bells

[DarkRaichu]

5 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Oh okay, so you think she should have just run away.  I disagree.

Abandoning her army seems a poor choice for a conquering Queen who has every ability to take over Westeros as intended.  

Especially an army that could re-spawn back to life after brutal massacre in episode 8.03. 👍

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree since we're looking at this differently.  Whoever was responsible for crucifying the slave children, they were dead wrong and they were monstrous.  They made innocents suffer to make a point to (from their perspective) an upstart invader.  Those who were part of the "master class" who argued against that particular crime were still complicit in the act--they didn't do anything to prevent the crucifixion of children--and were guilty of other crimes against people (enslaving them).  Dany made a point of destroying the "master class" to show them who was boss without benefit of trial or discussion.  She was conquering a nation on her way to becoming Queen of Westeros.  She wasn't about trying to be just in everyone's eyes, just hers. She was about flexing her muscle and expanding her power.  As I said, there were no good guys in this scenario.  Just different perspectives which led to people committing crimes against other people.  Neither side learned anything except to dig in in favor of their beliefs.  

I agree...  The thrust of my arguments over the last two weeks in Regard to Dany haven't been me passing judgment on her actions so much as me saying.. Her turn to complete darkness wasn't surprising and maybe because I was someone who was always uneasy with her whole white savior motif I wasn't as upset or invested as some other posters.. I'm also a guy so maybe its a bit easier for me to not hand wave some of the earlier signs... I know just about any show with just the one black/ mixed guy... I'm probably gonna pay extra attention to what they do and how they are portrayed.. But that could just be me so.. Also Arya has been the character I've seen the most of myself in so maybe not a guy thing I dunno... 

But as you put it.. I'm of the belief that as Dany sent a message to the "Master Class" with mass crucifixion.. She sent an even louder and deadlier message to the lords and ladies of westeros with this.. Very regrettable and sad display of power

[Bryce Lynch]

13 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Oh okay, so you think she should have just run away.  I disagree.

Abandoning her army seems a poor choice for a conquering Queen who has every ability to take over Westeros as intended.  

She had already taken KL and the people were scared to death of her, her troops and Drogon.  If she only torched the scorpions,, the main gate, Cersei, The Mountain, Qyburn, the Golden Company, The Iron Fleet, and the Lannister soldiers, until they surrendered, and then spared all the innocent people, she would have been in total control and both feared and loved by the people of KL.

To the extent she had a treason problem among her advisors, she should have handled that directly.   

[Kate47]

1 hour ago, Francie said:

Dany was always benevolent - when she got her way. When she didn't get her way, she could be very destructive and without empathy or sympathy. 

This is definitely accurate, and a way the show suffered where the books did well. 

We always got that "if I look back I am lost" perspective when Dany had to make hard choices, that allowed us to understand her a bit even when she was displaying that cold unemotional resolve. We didn't agree with a lot of her choices, but we could see the humanity inside them.

The show (necessarily) can't show us Dany's inner dialogue, although there are ways to do it, and so the same cold and unemotional decisions come across without that seed of humanity in them.

[Francie]

11 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

But as you put it.. I'm of the belief that as Dany sent a message to the "Master Class" with mass crucifixion.. She sent an even louder and deadlier message to the lords and ladies of westeros with this.. Very regrettable and sad display of power

Great point! Cersei was able to recount that to the lords she was trying to recruit. Dany put the Westerosi lords on notice that they could be next. 

[Drogo]

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

She had already taken KL and the people were scared to death of her, her troops and Drogon.  If she only torched the scorpions,, the main gate, Cersei, The Mountain, Qyburn, the Golden Company, The Iron Fleet, and the Lannister soldiers, until they surrendered, and then spared all the innocent people, she would have been in total control and both feared and loved by the people of KL.

To the extent she had a treason problem among her advisors, she should have handled that directly.   

It's unfortunate she didn't have an advisor like you. 

See- the ones she had were all dead, proven incompetent, or trying to kill her. 

[LadyPenelope]

Cersei was left with no options but to blow up the sept or die. I feel sorry for Loras and Margaery, who were basically prisoners there, but the majority of those people were just there for the satisfaction of seeing the queen put on trial and executed. And, importantly, not for any of her actual crimes, but for having sex outside of marriage. So fuck ‘em all, they deserved to burn. Much like when Dany burned the khals - they wanted her dead for no reason but misogyny so it’s really hard to care. 

Dany’s more recent pyrotechnics were, I think, an expression of her grief and her rage that the people of King’s Landing were treating her like an invader rather than a liberator. I get it. It’s a shame, but I think her capacity for vengeance has been repeatedly foreshadowed.

I don’t, however, think either of them are mad, or enjoy hurting people just for the sake of it. Ramsay Bolton was a psychopath who enjoyed pain for pain’s sake; Cersei and Dany are just ruthless, unyielding and vengeful. As were many men before then who never got called crazy. 

On a separate note, I loved the shot of Drogon coming out of the darkness and thought it foreshadowed Dany’s actions well - we have been conditioned to love the dragons and cheer them on but in that moment we were reminded of what they really were - terrifying and dangerous. 

[DigitalCount]

53 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Once rhaegar is dead Drogan now commnads all the magic? 

Inverse ninja law, but for dragons? I like it.

[kelslamu]

You know the bank is coming after Tyrian as the last Lannister who has to pay his debts. lol

[izabella]

Just now, kelslamu said:

You know the bank is coming after Tyrian as the last Lannister who has to pay his debts. lol

Bronn will be coming for Highgarden, too.

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Dany slaughtering tens of thousands of innocents, for no reason, was totally out of character, and terrible writing

Except it wasn't actually out of character for her.  We'd seen her threatened to burn cities to the ground in both Season 2 and Season 6 with no regard for the inhabitants of those cities.  The only reason she didn't destroy Astapor and Yunkai, cities full of re-enslaved people, for the actions of the Masters, was that Tyrion talked her out of it.

[FormerMod-a1]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

The tragic part is, a little tweak in writing / plotting could have made this last season much better.  For example, I would have been ok with Rhaegal killed during the attack at KL in 8.05, making the death of yet another child the last straw that broke Dany.

I would have liked that tweak as well.  I also would have liked one more, where after the surrender she takes off to the Red Keep and goes directly after it and Cersei and in the process she kills many innocents (even thousands) just to be sure Cersei didn't escape and is indeed dead, clearing a good circumference around the keep, etc,. and have that disregard for the people lead to the same result of her supporters (Jon et al) turning on her.  

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, screamin said:

Not to mention Mirri was a prophetess who foresaw that Dany's unborn son would be a vicious conqueror who would do to the world what Drogon had done to her people. (Either that, or the mistreatment of Mirri drove her mad and gave her delusions; same difference to Mirri). Mirri knew she would pay horribly for what she was doing, she still did it for what she considered the needs of the future, not just her revenge. I still find her a heroic figure.

So, I don't recall the exact prophecy, or the order of events, but it occurred to me as I read your post that the unborn son could have referred to her dragon instead of her baby. 

2 hours ago, taurusrose said:

No one has clean hands in this scenario; therefore, no one can play the "victim" or "hero" card.  Everyone concerned behaved poorly towards fellow human beings.  At this point, people are just trying to "one up" each other in who is worse.  They all are worse!

Which to me has always been the point of this saga. No one is pure of heart (except maybe Brianne). Not by the end of the story.

[screamin]

16 minutes ago, izabella said:

Bronn will be coming for Highgarden, too.

It annoys me to death, the idea that he'll show up, Tyrion will say to whoever's in charge, "Yeah, he made me promise at gunpoint to give him Highgarden, the richest territory in Westeros, then he slunk off and did absolutely nothing to help," and the person in charge will reply, "Awesome, a fine ruler!" and hand it over.

[RealReality]

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

I think you missed my objective.  I was replying to your assertion that "Cersei burning the sept was an act of self-preservation but Dany burning KL was not." 

Dany absolutely burnt KL to retain her power and position via instilling fear in her subjects.  The only way for Daenerys to stay alive at this point is by retaining her power and position.  Self-preservation. 

Dany may tell herself that, but I don't think it's true.  The people of KL hated cersei but generally abided by her rules and accepted her as queen.  These are not the freemen, these are people used to living under the rule of a queen...even one they have no great love for.

I don't remember the people of KL revolting at any time so there was no reason to think they would revolt after they had surrendered.

You probably don't need to burn down and entire city even if you want to rule by fear.  The very existence of a dragon should do it.  If not like 3-4 public dracracys executions should do it.

[Drogo]

6 minutes ago, RealReality said:

You probably don't need to burn down and entire city even if you want to rule by fear.  The very existence of a dragon should do it.  If not like 3-4 public dracracys executions should do it.

It wasn't enough in the North, where despite her dragon and Dracarys'ing plans were in motion to unseat and/or kill her.

[Bryce Lynch]

28 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Except it wasn't actually out of character for her.  We'd seen her threatened to burn cities to the ground in both Season 2 and Season 6 with no regard for the inhabitants of those cities.  The only reason she didn't destroy Astapor and Yunkai, cities full of re-enslaved people, for the actions of the Masters, was that Tyrion talked her out of it.

I don't recall her Season 6 threat.  Her season 2 threat was a desperate, idle threat with her and her people dying of starvation and thirst at the gates of Qarth.   

[Drogo]

12 minutes ago, screamin said:

It annoys me to death, the idea that he'll show up, Tyrion will say to whoever's in charge, "Yeah, he made me promise at gunpoint to give him Highgarden, the richest territory in Westeros, then he slunk off and did absolutely nothing to help," and the person in charge will reply, "Awesome, a fine ruler!" and hand it over.

Considering the circumstances under which the arrangement was made and the fact that Bronn has no contract ethics, I don't see Tyrion feeling the need to pay his Lannister debts to him.

Bronn:  You said you'd give me Highgarden.
Tyrion:  But what if I don't?

[Bryce Lynch]

13 minutes ago, Drogo said:

It wasn't enough in the North, where despite her dragon and Dracarys'ing plans were in motion to unseat and/or kill her.

That treason against her was put in place by a high Lady and one of Dany's top advisors, not commoners.  The commoners have no power to to arrange or prevent coups or assassinations by her inner circle and their family members.   

All the massacre did was make everyone, both noble and commoner want to kill her at the first opportunity.   

The deal is supposed to be, "We bend the knee, you don't burn us with dragonfire.".   

If surrender and submission bring death anyway, why not go down fighting or continually plot the assassination of the Queen?

Edited May 15, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Macbeth]

Dany is going to kill Tyrion long before Bronn gets to him.

I loved Varys.  He was one of my favorite characters.  And being 1 of the 2 living characters who knew the Mad King very well (other being Jaime) - he could spot a potentially mad-Targaryen when he sees one. 

He was for the realm which he viewed as the commoners.  Their needs was his priority.  Too bad Dany proved him right in his assessment of her.  

No one will truly know all that you did Varys.  Now your watch has ended.  

[RealReality]

15 minutes ago, Drogo said:

It wasn't enough in the North, where despite her dragon and Dracarys'ing plans were in motion to unseat and/or kill her.

The northerners seemed so far removed from KL that they never fully respected the rule of whoever sat on the throne.  I think KL is different.

And even in the north, the common people weren't planning a revolt...it seemed like Sansa was.  And I'm not sure how many people would have had her back.

[enoughcats]

26 minutes ago, RealReality said:

Dany may tell herself that, but I don't think it's true.  The people of KL hated cersei but generally abided by her rules and accepted her as queen.  These are not the freemen, these are people used to living under the rule of a queen...even one they have no great love for.

I don't remember the people of KL revolting at any time so there was no reason to think they would revolt after they had surrendered.

Was there a scene (or something) to indicate that the people of Kings' Landing knew that Cersei was responsible for blowing up the sept and the murder of beloved Margarey as well as the death of Tommen? 

It was an unexpected massive blow with no lead in and I'd assume no survivors who understood the cause and effect much less who had instigated it. 

Cersei was no Margery , but who else did they have?

[RealReality]

2 minutes ago, enoughcats said:

Was there a scene (or something) to indicate that the people of Kings' Landing knew that Cersei was responsible for blowing up the sept and the murder of beloved Margarey as well as the death of Tommen? 

It was an unexpected massive blow with no lead in and I'd assume no survivors who understood the cause and effect much less who had instigated it. 

Cersei was no Margery , but who else did they have?

I don't remember such a scene, but Tyrion said that she didn't like the people and the people didn't like her.  And Jaime seemed to hate them too...or at least was ambivalent.

I'm not sure why they hated cersei.  But cersei doesn't seem like the type that inspires a warm fuzzy feeling, so they could just not like her for whatever.

[Drogo]

8 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The deal is supposed to be, "We bend the knee, you don't burn us with dragonfire.".   

That was the deal until those who had bent the knee started conspiring against her.

Now her time in the North has left her isolated and she has no one to talk her out of using her dragon - so use him she did. 

11 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

Dany is going to kill Tyrion long before Bronn gets to him.

Tyrion's now directly or indirectly caused the deaths of his mother, father, sister and brother. 

[Constantinople]

1 minute ago, enoughcats said:

Was there a scene (or something) to indicate that the people of Kings' Landing knew that Cersei was responsible for blowing up the sept and the murder of beloved Margarey as well as the death of Tommen? 

People would have to be daft not to wonder if Cersei was behind blowing up the Sept of Baelor.

And aside from that, there are always conspiracy theories

[ShellsandCheese]

16 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

Dany is going to kill Tyrion long before Bronn gets to him.

I loved Varys.  He was one of my favorite characters.  And being 1 of the 2 living characters who knew the Mad King very well (other being Jaime) - he could spot a potentially mad-Targaryen when he sees one. 

He was for the realm which he viewed as the commoners.  Their needs was his priority.  Too bad Dany proved him right in his assessment of her.  

No one will truly know all that you did Varys.  Now your watch has ended.  

I totally disagree about Varys. There was nothing that Dany did from the moment Varys met up with her to the time that he ended up trying to poison her that would justify him betraying her like that. The only things that I can tell that he didn't like were, her burning the Tarly's.

Also, Varys didn't really care about the realm - sure he liked to tell himself that but someone who really cared about the realm wouldn't have been working behind the scenes to sow the kind of chaos that results in a war that will largely impact commoners. Varys is quite frankly, full of shit. And he wanted Jon because he saw that Jon would be easy to manipulate. 

[Francie]

7 minutes ago, enoughcats said:

Was there a scene (or something) to indicate that the people of Kings' Landing knew that Cersei was responsible for blowing up the sept and the murder of beloved Margarey as well as the death of Tommen? 

It was an unexpected massive blow with no lead in and I'd assume no survivors who understood the cause and effect much less who had instigated it. 

Cersei was no Margery , but who else did they have?

I think Hot Pie mentioned it to Arya. So I think it was common perception. 

But, to the people, even that act was more about the Game of Thrones that the lords played, and had nothing to do with them.  

At the time, the High Sparrow was imposing a morality code on the people, and his sparrows were armed thugs. So Cersei getting rid of him and his minions may have been a blessing (seven blessings!) to them. 

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I totally disagree about Varys. There was nothing that Dany did from the moment Varys met up with her to the time that he ended up trying to poison her that would justify him betraying her like that. The only things that I can tell that he didn't like were, her burning the Tarly's.

Also, Varys didn't really care about the realm - sure he liked to tell himself that but someone who really cared about the realm wouldn't have been working behind the scenes to sow the kind of chaos that results in a war that will largely impact commoners. Varys is quite frankly, full of shit. And he wanted Jon because he saw that Jon would be easy to manipulate. 

Yes, Varys's behavior just made no sense. It made perfect sense that he would want to have the information of who Jon is. It makes sense he'd want to have that backup for future, whether he was needing a backup himself or if he was just on the lookout for other people using this information.

But here he did exactly the type of thing he wouldn't have done. He decided to make himself pretty much the entire coup and it was based only on not being able to be sure Dany was the best leader even though he was apparently fine with her before that and she actually hadn't done anything to cause such a huge change of mind for him. Enough to have other options just in case? Sure. Enough to be pretty openly conspiring against her? No! 

[UNOSEZ]

2 hours ago, Drogo said:

And when she's overthrown for all the reasons I described, what do you suppose happens to Daenerys and Drogon?  

Thanked for their assistance with the AotD and sent on their merry way? 

Dollars to donuts Jon would and maybe Tyrion too would try to convince her to go back to  Mereen.. Where she's loved and be a good queen there... Doubt it'll work.. But maybe in a moment of clarity she'll stop giving herself bs rationalizations and see what she's actually done.. And say this ain't worth it... I doubt it.. 

On anothet note... She's really screwed Jon.. If he does wanna be king.. Not only is he a half targ ( as im sure that'll spread around like wildfire no pun intended)  but he vouched for this  murderer and was at the head of her army that went on to rape and pillage and kill soldiers who put down their weapons... 

[Bryce Lynch]

10 minutes ago, Drogo said:

That was the deal until those who had bent the knee started conspiring against her.

Now her time in the North has left her isolated and she has no one to talk her out of using her dragon - so use him she did. 

Tyrion's now directly or indirectly caused the deaths of his mother, father, sister and brother. 

The North wasn't conspiring against her, Sansa was and Varys was.  Tyrion entertained the ideas a bit too, but ultimately shut it down and turned in Varys.   

The innocent people of KL had nothing to do with that, and even the soldiers lay down their arms and surrendered.

If she wanted to show what happens to traitors (and make me really happy), she could have flown to WF and taken Sansa and executed her in front of the people of KL.   If she felt Jon and/or Tyrion were also traitors she could have executed them.

Instead, the message she sent was that she kills without reason, and submitting to and obeying her is no more likely to lead to a long and peaceful life than fighting her.   At least if you fight her, there is a chance.   

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The North wasn't conspiring against her, Sansa was and Varys was.  Tyrion entertained the ideas a bit too, but ultimately shut it down and turned in Varys.   

Sansa hadn't started conspiring against her yet that we saw. She gave the information to Tyrion and probably knew he'd tell Varys. She'd no doubt be interested in Varys doing something to undermine her. But she's not actually running any conspiracy herself.

Though of course she is doing exactly that in Dany's eyes. Just telling Tyrion the information is a conspiracy to her and she's not entirely wrong when it comes to her motivation. But by that same token she'd probably consider the North pretty similar. She knew Sansa would back Jon against her and she knows the same thing about the North. 

[DarkRaichu]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Instead, the message she sent was that she kills without reason, and submitting to and obeying her is no more likely to lead to a long and peaceful life than fighting her.   At least if you fight her, there is a chance.

I hate to say this, but this is most like what D&D had intended.  Dany had to do something so extreme for Jon to finally let go of his blind loyalty and take arms against her.

[Drogo]

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

The North wasn't conspiring against her, Sansa was and Varys was.  Tyrion entertained the ideas a bit too, but ultimately shut it down and turned in Varys.

The North loves Sansa and would support any campaign she ran- and it's a pretty clear anti-Daenerys campaign Sansa's chosen. 

As far as Daenerys is concerned, this (packaged with the recent loss of Jon's affections) is enough to feel the North is willing to turn against her. 

[UNOSEZ]

25 minutes ago, Drogo said:

That was the deal until those who had bent the knee started conspiring against her.

Now her time in the North has left her isolated and she has no one to talk her out of using her dragon - so use him she did. 

Tyrion's now directly or indirectly caused the deaths of his mother, father, sister and brother. 

He also sent myrcella to Dorne.. Tho when he did that she was safe... Until Cersei tried to kill him and oberyn came to his rescue then got killed... So yeah I guess he's responsible for her too... Man the greatest killer of Lannisters ever... Hail Tyrion Hand to Queen Dany/Sansa/Arya

[Giselle]

4 hours ago, Sarnia said:

That sums up perfectly the showrunners' investment in their show at this point.

For me season 8 GOT is Godfather 3.

I hear that exists. I don't believe it.

[RealReality]

5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The North wasn't conspiring against her, Sansa was and Varys was.  Tyrion entertained the ideas a bit too, but ultimately shut it down and turned in Varys.   

The innocent people of KL had nothing to do with that, and even the soldiers lay down their arms and surrendered.

If she wanted to show what happens to traitors (and make me really happy), she could have flown to WF and taken Sansa and executed her in front of the people of KL.   If she felt Jon and/or Tyrion were also traitors she could have executed them.

Instead, the message she sent was that she kills without reason, and submitting to and obeying her is no more likely to lead to a long and peaceful life than fighting her.   At least if you fight her, there is a chance.   

Yeah, I also got the impression that the conspiracy was coming from Sansa.  I'm not entirely sure the people of the north would have gone along with it....I'm not entirely sure the northerners are all that into her.  

They chose Jon as king of the north, so I'm not sure how much regard they have for Sansa....

I think the north MAYBE follows Jon into battle with a queen who has dothraki, unsullied and a dragon....and that's a big maybe.  But I don't really think they follow Sansa into that suicide mission 

[UNOSEZ]

24 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I totally disagree about Varys. There was nothing that Dany did from the moment Varys met up with her to the time that he ended up trying to poison her that would justify him betraying her like that. The only things that I can tell that he didn't like were, her burning the Tarly's.

Also, Varys didn't really care about the realm - sure he liked to tell himself that but someone who really cared about the realm wouldn't have been working behind the scenes to sow the kind of chaos that results in a war that will largely impact commoners. Varys is quite frankly, full of shit. And he wanted Jon because he saw that Jon would be easy to manipulate. 

I've said it before.. But Dany started yo lose Varys the minute she did that to the Tarlys.. And it was the method after that scene he immediately started asking tyrion if she was alright and got worried.. Because he'd been thru this before.. One place the show failed in my humble opinion.. Is not really letting us viewers know just How bad Dany's father was and her bloodline in general that the minute they do anything that seems extreme ppl are scared this is it.. This is when the bad comes out... Kinda like an alcoholic from an alcoholic family... We already know they are predisposed.. They themselves have done some scary things and every time something even seems a little off ur wondering if they're drinking again

[TigerLynx]

5 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Ignoring that my comment specifically said.. What in this episode led to the conclusion that the poster came to ( was it initially you or someone else  forgive me the memory is wonky)  if we wanna take the series in general into question what has Jon done that would even be considered  an atrocity?  Because the initial post... And I'm paraphrasing... Was basically saying that if the point of the episode was to walk away from it thinking Dany was Bad and Jon was Good then they ( writers/showrunners)  failed..to which I asked how??  after watching that episode.. Regardless of how we got here and what they felt about the writing.. Did they reach that conclusion 

This was a slight of hand so Jon could be King.  Dany could have already taken Kings Landing, and never gone North to help with the Knight King (who it turned out was killed by Arya), and not lost two dragons in the process.  It was boring TV tropes to put the guy on the throne instead of the girl.  Poor delicate insane woman can't handle rejection or power goes psycho, and the reluctant guy has to become King. {major eyeroll}

Also, Sansa had it right when she mocked Tyrion for believing Cersei would send her army to help fight the Knight King in the North.  Basically, the guys had it wrong, Sansa and Dany were right, but a guy gets the throne.

5 hours ago, Friendly kitty said:

Therefore, you must first kill the dragon, and only then you can go to kill Deyneris. Otherwise, nothing happens.

If...
Naturally, if the Missandea pushed Cersei from the roof everything would have ended well. But the writers needed a sudden turnaround ... so Missandea died, and Deineris went crazy and became the main villain. Now Cersei looks white and fluffy compared to Deineris. She did not even burn the surrendered people indiscriminately ...

Cersei will never look white and fluffy no matter what Dany or anyone else does.

4 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Nope. She blew them up during peace time when least expected

Which is not at all unusual for the characters on this show or in real life.

[UNOSEZ]

25 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But here he did exactly the type of thing he wouldn't have done. He decided to make himself pretty much the entire coup and it was based only on not being able to be sure Dany was the best leader even though he was apparently fine with her before that and she actually hadn't done anything to cause such a huge change of mind for him. Enough to have other options just in case? Sure. Enough to be pretty openly conspiring against her? No! 

I feel this was more about how things happened chronologically on the show... He's already had some reservations about her state of mind... He sees how she is after the Long night.. How she's looking at how Jon is treated.. ( probably already sensing that targaryen paranoia)  he's been in the room with the bristling between her and Sansa... He knows Jorah dying is a big blow and the loss of someone who she actually listens to... He's seen her losing patience and trust in Tyrion... Then he hears about Shiny Jon... And all the points he makes are valid.. How Jon is received.. How she would be received.. The fact she's a woman.. All of it... His wheels are turning... But like Tyrion says.. He doesn't want it... Maybe right now he's 55/45 jump to Jon and leave/betray Dany.... Then Rhaegal and Missandei get taken out... And he knows.. He's been here before.. He knows.. Maybe better than any character left save Jaime what a really angry and unchecked targaryen can/ will do... Now he's 100% Jon... There's little time left.. What will leaving really do.. So he writes his letters...  Apparently tries to poison her( I didn't get that when I watched it.. But that seems to be the consensus)  and then flat out asks Jon to  stop her.. Because if he doesn't right now.. In a day or two.. The little folk will be done for... Ned Stark Jr  chose loyalty...Tyrion chose to believe the best would happen  Varys gets bbq'd hoping he's wrong... 

He wasn't... 

[ShellsandCheese]

33 minutes ago, Drogo said:

The North loves Sansa and would support any campaign she ran- and it's a pretty clear anti-Daenerys campaign Sansa's chosen. 

As far as Daenerys is concerned, this (packaged with the recent loss of Jon's affections) is enough to feel the North is willing to turn against her. 

I disagree with this. The North loves a winner. Did everyone forget about season six when Sansa could hardly get any of the great houses to go fight again Ramsay Bolton. They didn't come around until after the battle was won, and even then, they made Jon Snow - bastard son of Ned Stark KITN; not Sansa Stark. The Vale came because of Peter Baelish, and that was because he had loved Catelyn Stark and was transferring that to Sansa. If Baelish had never loved Catelyn, I doubt the Knights of the Vale would have even bothered.  

Edited May 15, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[UNOSEZ]

10 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

could have already taken Kings Landing, and never gone North to help with the Knight King (who it turned out was killed by Arya), and not lost two dragons in the process.  It was boring TV tropes to put the guy on the throne instead of the girl.  Poor delicate insane woman can't handle rejection or power goes psycho, and the reluctant guy has to become King. {major eyeroll}

Also, Sansa had it right when she mocked Tyrion for believing Cersei would send her army to help fight the Knight King in the North.  Basically, the guys had it wrong, Sansa and Dany were right, but a guy gets the throne.

That doesn't seem to answer the question my last two posts in this thread with you asked... So I'm just gonna disengage... Enjoy the rest of the show 

[Bryce Lynch]

32 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Sansa hadn't started conspiring against her yet that we saw. She gave the information to Tyrion and probably knew he'd tell Varys. She'd no doubt be interested in Varys doing something to undermine her. But she's not actually running any conspiracy herself.

Though of course she is doing exactly that in Dany's eyes. Just telling Tyrion the information is a conspiracy to her and she's not entirely wrong when it comes to her motivation. But by that same token she'd probably consider the North pretty similar. She knew Sansa would back Jon against her and she knows the same thing about the North. 

I believe she asked Tyrion, "What if there is someone better?" before breaking her oath to Jon and telling him.  Clearly, her intent was to start a coup against her and make Jon the King.  Sansa invited the conspiracy.   

[RealReality]

26 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

I've said it before.. But Dany started yo lose Varys the minute she did that to the Tarlys.. And it was the method after that scene he immediately started asking tyrion if she was alright and got worried.. Because he'd been thru this before.. One place the show failed in my humble opinion.. Is not really letting us viewers know just How bad Dany's father was and her bloodline in general that the minute they do anything that seems extreme ppl are scared this is it.. This is when the bad comes out... Kinda like an alcoholic from an alcoholic family... We already know they are predisposed.. They themselves have done some scary things and every time something even seems a little off ur wondering if they're drinking again

I agree.  I'm not sure if they could have done it through brans Raven vision, but I get the impression that varys had been through this before and had seen the signs.  It would have been nice to see how closely parallel danys actions were to those early actions of the mad king and to see if varys had a point.

[Bryce Lynch]

38 minutes ago, RealReality said:

Yeah, I also got the impression that the conspiracy was coming from Sansa.  I'm not entirely sure the people of the north would have gone along with it....I'm not entirely sure the northerners are all that into her.  

They chose Jon as king of the north, so I'm not sure how much regard they have for Sansa....

I think the north MAYBE follows Jon into battle with a queen who has dothraki, unsullied and a dragon....and that's a big maybe.  But I don't really think they follow Sansa into that suicide mission 

I'm not sure whether the Lords or commoners of the North would go along with Sansa, if they knew about it.  But, I am almost certain they did not know about it.  

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I believe she asked Tyrion, "What if there is someone better?" before breaking her oath to Jon and telling him.  Clearly, her intent was to start a coup against her and make Jon the King.  Sansa invited the conspiracy.   

Yes, she obviously was inviting it, but she didn't actually do anything but give Tyrion information. She didn't have anything to do with what Varys was doing, which were the active measures against Dany.

Of course Dany would consider Sansa part of it and for good reason, but it's not so much that Sansa is part of a coup at this point. She's just obviously going to support the coup.

[TigerLynx]

3 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Not really.  Cersei had another choice.  She could have gotten the hell out of Dodge, but her pride, greed and hatefulness wouldn't allow that. Mass murder is mass murder, the reasons for it don't make it any less.

Yes, and what's been shown over and over again is quite of few of these characters have no problem committing murder to get what they want.  If the way to the Iron Throne to win the game is killing, and losing means dying, then if you are after the throne, following someone who is, or in league with someone who wants it, that means people are going to die.  If these characters don't realize that by now, then they really are to stupid to live which is probably why so many of them are dead.

3 hours ago, Francie said:

The takeaway from Dany's decision to randomly pick 163 masters is that she didn't care if any particular one took part in the decision or didn't.  Now there's justification that those who voted against didn't do enough to stop it.  

When I hear those arguments, I immediately think of whether any American who can vote should be held accountable for 60 U.S. Senators voting to go to war. Or is there a recognition that one does not have power to override the majority in a democracy?

You can vote them out of office, and there are people who protest the wars.  Also, if a country bombs another country, I'm not sure why they are surprised when people return the favor and bomb them back.

[TaurusRose]

8 hours ago, Drogo said:

Daenerys sees burning KL as a necessary evil, an act of self preservation. 

• Her advisor was trying to kill her, at the advice of her Hand as far as she knows.
• Her Hand has freed his traitorous brother to continue his mission of helping their sister escape (we don't know if Daenerys knows this or not.)
• Her lover's sisters are actively trying to overthrow her.
• Her lover doesn't want to kiss her anymore because he's her aunt, but it's not in her nature to understand why. 

She's just lost her oldest friend, her closest confidante, thousands of her soldiers and two of her children.  She is alone, but she is the last dragon. 

Daenerys burnt KL as a message to those who would betray her:  Let it be fear. 

She made sure the Starks will think long and hard before pursuing their anti-Daenerys agenda because if KL can go down in 20 minutes, shitty-ass Winterfell should only take 10.

I don’t know whether to like or laugh at that comment. Both reactions are valid. Bravo!

Edited May 16, 2019 by taurusrose
Correct double comment.

[Constantinople]

Remarkable how Euron's plot armor fell off the moment he stepped ashore

They should have just let Drogon toast Euron

Euron and Jaime's fight was filler, and dull.

[DarkRaichu]

4 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Remarkable how Euron's plot armor fell off the moment he stepped ashore

They should have just let Drogon toast Euron

Euron and Jaime's fight was filler, and dull.

Last episode we saw Euron shooting Rheagal and Dany's ships accurately from good distance.  The real question is, why the hell did the best shooter in KL not sit in 1 of those scorpions when everyone KNEW Dany was attacking ??

Answer: D&D wanted to see KL burn to the ground 👍

[MadameKillerB]

Yeah, Euron swam ashore right at the spot Jaime would be in? Ok, show.