S08.E03: The Long Night

[taanja]

On 4/29/2019 at 5:45 PM, WatchrTina said:

Some people have commented how Sansa's behavior in the crypt is so very different from how she behaved during the Battle of the Blackwater.  

But in THIS episode she is with Northerners and they keep to the old gods.  They pray in front of a weirwood tree and I think they pray silently.  I suspect that Sansa offering to lead the group in prayer would have been completely at odds with cultural norms. Furthermore she is the Lady of Winterfell and she needs to look strong.  For her to pray aloud, asking to be kept safe while hiding from the battle might be viewed as weakness by Northerners.  I suppose she could have led them in prayers for the fighting men but, again, I suspect that's not how they roll.

Prayer? What good would prayer do? Sansa said a while ago she was done with that shit.

When Sansa enters the crypt-- her face is deadly serious and there are tears in her eyes. She doesn't say a word but her expression and the very fact that she is down in the crypt says it all -- the fight is NOT going well.

Tyrion takes one look at her face and sort of nods and takes a swig of booze -- because he understands -- like all the others down there -- that Sansa is down in the crypt because the living are losing! Period.

Silly prayers and hollow words of comfort would have ruined that otherwise poignant scene.

[dreamcatcher]

On 4/29/2019 at 6:26 AM, Lemuria said:

Yep, that was certainly blown out of the water, wasn't it?  All that buildup (not to mention, the whole Robert's Rebellion thing) for naught.  

Why did the Lord of Light bring Jon back, then?

These are the things I want answered in the books. Jon needed to rally the north and bring Dany to the cause is big enough, but it’s one of those things that can only be conveyed properly in a book, not on a tv show. And the fact that everything that happened from the moment Rhaegar laid eyes on Lyanna until now was meaningless (as in, no TPWWP was needed) sounds something that Martin would’ve come up with. But at the same time, I don’t want all this backstory to be for nothing. I want Starks to have their own mythos-that there is a reason why they are important and there must always be a stark in winterfell. I want Bran to have more to do than just stare at people and lure the NK out. 

On 4/29/2019 at 6:34 AM, SimoneS said:

No Glover is dead. As Tormund said, anyone who didn't make it to Winterfell is dead. The Northern lords are basically decimated.

I think at this point all major houses are gone, except for the Lannisters and Starks. Plus Baratheons if Jon/Dany say so-which would also make sense since he is a survivor of the great war and well they kinda need lords for all these abandon places anyway.

On 4/30/2019 at 3:47 PM, SeanC said:

From the “Game Revealed” video (at around the 19 minute mark) it looks like the crypt sequence was planned to be much longer but got cut down to basically nothing.  That would explain the emphasis on, for instance, Sansa being given the dagger that she never does anything with in the finished product.  She and Tyrion were meant to be killing wights, but as edited they dramatically rise from behind the hiding place and then go hunker in another corner.

The episode was spectacular, but also disappointing story-wise. We’re over here debating whether Jon was just screaming at a dead dragon or was hyping Arya and whether Sansa is a coward or tried to do her best, while there is a definite answer to both. Especially with sansa, they’ve been trying to redeem her character and are telling us she’s smart and good at politics and that’s her strength. And they just decided to cut her scenes to the point that it looked like she let the other die even though they literally filmed them fighting. Why?? This was the longest episode of the series, 6 extra seconds wouldn’t have killed them.

I don’t think Martin will ever finish the book. At best, we will get one more book and I suspect that might end up being ghostwritten as well. Can’t he just release a rough draft of his plans? For example, I don’t see how Rickon could ever die at the hands of a northern traitor. I believe he will be alive at the end of the books or die during the equivalent of the great war at worse. How is Sansa going to end up ar WF and alive? Unless she dies in the next 3 episodes, then that must mean she’s still alive at the end of the books too. Would book!tyrion really ally with Dany? How is theon going to redeem himself if there’s no sansa to save from Ramsey? What about the other Aegon? Is he important? Is he the actual heir and Jon isn’t even alive in the books-some say he came back just because he took over the other Aegon’s storyline.

While I love the show, I just feel like they’re separate things now. I can’t predict anything only because I don’t see how all these characters could get to the point they are now and do similar things.

[tv-talk]

6 minutes ago, dreamcatcher said:

it’s one of those things that can only be conveyed properly in a book, not on a tv show.

I think the "Arya is a Mary Sue" dynamic and coming up with a theory of how Jon actually allowed her to kill the NK is all from people who havent read the books and dont actually understand what Arya had become and how she became that way. I think when you've read her character it's virtually impossible to not love that she's the one who did the NK in and how she managed to do it. Meanwhile in the tv-only universe of the show she catches inordinate amount of resentment. Sansa too really.

[dreamcatcher]

21 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

I think the "Arya is a Mary Sue" dynamic and coming up with a theory of how Jon actually allowed her to kill the NK is all from people who havent read the books and dont actually understand what Arya had become and how she became that way. I think when you've read her character it's virtually impossible to not love that she's the one who did the NK in and how she managed to do it. Meanwhile in the tv-only universe of the show she catches inordinate amount of resentment. Sansa too really.

I think the show did it as best as it could honestly. Jon has had epic battles and fights and was declared both lord commander and KiTN. Those are things you can show to establish Jon=hero and survivor. But Sansa and Arya’s stories are a bit more psychological and you can’t properly convey them using a visual medium. Arya had a lot of scenes proving that she is fast, a great fighter and well, sneaks up on people. It’s quite obvious she’s the perfect person for this job, especially because the enemy would know to avoid someone like Jon but wouldn’t expect this little girl to be a worthy opponent. Sansa also is really good at getting to know people and gain their trust. She knows how to act in all circumstances and for me, how she behaved in the crypts vs in KL shows that she can read the room and act appropriately. And considering that all leaders so far who had nothing but a big name and were presented as warriors/fighters were useless at the end of thr day, the fact that for one we have a leader who knows how to lead and doesn’t want to just create chaos is amazing. Last thing to end my rant, even the show told us multiple times that Sansa wanted Jon and then Bran to be restored as the lord of winterfell and yet, people accuse her of trying to get the ‘crown’ from jon. Of course those people wouldn’t believe Arya was deserving of this one win after all we’ve seen from her.

[rmontro]

9 hours ago, taanja said:

Prayer? What good would prayer do? Sansa said a while ago she was done with that shit.

We've seen that at the religions of at least the Lord of Light and probably the Many-Faced God have some power in this world.  Was Sansa there to see Melisandre light the Dothraki torches?  Plus there's an army of dead people marching down their throats.  Might be a good time to regain some faith.

As for Arya, I thought the TV show did a good enough job of showing all of the training she had received, and all the things she had gone through.  The people who complain about Arya being the one to take out the Night King are going to find something to complain about anyway.  

On the behind the scenes special, they said it was assumed Jon Snow would take down the NK, but when the time came closer, it didn't seem right somehow, so they ended up having Arya do it.  They showed them filming the scene, and afterward the guy who played the NK, in full costume, gave her a high five, like "Good job", it's a pretty surreal sight.

[Affogato]

15 hours ago, tv-talk said:

I think the "Arya is a Mary Sue" dynamic and coming up with a theory of how Jon actually allowed her to kill the NK is all from people who havent read the books and dont actually understand what Arya had become and how she became that way. I think when you've read her character it's virtually impossible to not love that she's the one who did the NK in and how she managed to do it. Meanwhile in the tv-only universe of the show she catches inordinate amount of resentment. Sansa too really.

Honestly people really have issues with female heroes. They nitpick them, mary sue them, clap loudly if the rise high and start to fall.It is hard to eradicate. 

[Maximum Taco]

8 hours ago, rmontro said:

As for Arya, I thought the TV show did a good enough job of showing all of the training she had received, and all the things she had gone through.  The people who complain about Arya being the one to take out the Night King are going to find something to complain about anyway.  

I think they did a good enough job showing that she's capable of accomplishing that goal. Nobody who watched the show or read the books can legitimately argue against Arya's lethality. 

I think where they failed was showing exactly how she accomplished it. This was obviously in service to the moment where she strikes, they wanted us to lose all hope for Bran and then have Arya spring to his rescue. The problem with this is it smacks of Deus ex Machina. Arya jumps at him, but from where? The walls of the godswood are far from the weirwood tree. Arya got to him but how? He was surrounded by undead and his most trusted generals. Arya has supernatural stealth powers, but we don't ever see her use them in this episode, and it's a stretch for us to assume she did here. 

If any character snuck through an entire army and attacked a general in the open while drawing zero attention from his underlings I'd cry foul too if no explanation was given and none was, and I don't think one is forthcoming.

[tv-talk]

14 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

If any character snuck through an entire army and attacked a general in the open while drawing zero attention from his underlings I'd cry foul too if no explanation was given and none was, and I don't think one is forthcoming.

Fair enough but relatively speaking it's no worse and arguably more believable than 300 undead swarmed onto Brianne and Jamie with their backs against a wall yet they survive, or Sam actually being covered in them on the floor and somehow living, and of course best of all the invincible Jon Snow able to literally survive numerous 1 vs Thousands scenarios over course of the show. Arya sneaking up as everyone focused on the NK is very implausible but so is all he rest.

Another thing I liked about Arya killing him is the NK was too powerful for Jon or ANY human to beat in combat. The ONLY way he was going to lose was via stealth and/or trickery and that's Arya all the way. An extended battle scene of him and Jon would have been pretty weak UNLESS Jon killed him but died in the process...and since the show is now full Hollywood there was no way Jon would die yet.

[jeansheridan]

18 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Frankly he never had much of a personality even before he found out the Night King existed.

He grew on me after he killed Ygrette on the show. Going through that first battle, stepping up to lead the attack, sending his friends to die...But I also liked when Brienne of all people commented that of course he was moody coming back from the dead. That changes a person. Then his frustration trying to talk with Dany and Sansa. He is not good with women at all and I think that's fair. The fact that he is handsome and yes, smaller, really serves him well in dealing with them. He looks them in the eye rather than dominates which is awesome. I mean, this isn't written down. It's just implied. But they have said he is not great with the big speeches (Sam teases him about not being a poet). Like Jaime he tries to learn from his failures (not listening to Sansa, recognizing Dany's offer of dragon glass was an olive branch, not sitting on the news Sam told him). I have grown to love Kit as Jon Snow. In fact, I cannot say I am tired of any of these characters other.than Season 6 Tyrion when all he did was drink and know things. By this point on a show, even my beloved Buffy and Veronica Mars, I was done. More than done. I still want to know what will happen next week. I still worry about Bronn and his crossbow. And if Dragon wings heal. And if dragons lay eggs and if Nymeria will finally show up.

[Maximum Taco]

9 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Fair enough but relatively speaking it's no worse and arguably more believable than 300 undead swarmed onto Brianne and Jamie with their backs against a wall yet they survive, or Sam actually being covered in them on the floor and somehow living, and of course best of all the invincible Jon Snow able to literally survive numerous 1 vs Thousands scenarios over course of the show. Arya sneaking up as everyone focused on the NK is very implausible but so is all he rest.

Another thing I liked about Arya killing him is the NK was too powerful for Jon or ANY human to beat in combat. The ONLY way he was going to lose was via stealth and/or trickery and that's Arya all the way. An extended battle scene of him and Jon would have been pretty weak UNLESS Jon killed him but died in the process...and since the show is now full Hollywood there was no way Jon would die yet.

All legitimate complaints too. The whole episode was rife with these kinds of issues. 

But the climactic moment (arguably of the entire series) is (IMO appropriately) going to be judged harsher then stuff like "how did Sam survive?"

It's just the way a story works. Tiny things like a (relatively minor character's) survival can be hand waved. Big stuff like "How did we defeat the menace that threatened the entire world?" is going to be scrutinized. 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[tv-talk]

9 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

It's just the way a story works. Tiny things like survival can be hand waved. Big stuff like "How did we defeat the menace that threaten the entire world" is going to be scrutinized. 

If the NKs last act was crushing Arya's throat and she fell dead to the ground as he shattered, no complaints (and no I dont 'want' Arya to die). As it stands the show isnt that anymore so no matter how they did it, it would be rife with issues because the framework is all of humanity may die but none of the major characters do (sorry Jorah).

Edited May 3, 2019 by tv-talk

[Maximum Taco]

16 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

If the NKs last act was crushing Arya's throat and she fell dead to the ground as he shattered, no complaints (and no I dont 'want' Arya to die). As it stands the show isnt that anymore so no matter how they did it, it would be rife with issues because the framework is all of humanity may die but none of the major characters do (sorry Jorah).

I'd still have complaints. 

It's not about the brutality of the story, it's about the integrity of the story. How did Arya sneak up on the NK? It's not good enough (IMO) to say "She's good at sneaking lols"

Let's compare to another fantasy epic. In Lord of the Rings, I guess spoilers if someone hasn't seen/read LoTR yet... 

Spoiler

Frodo (and Samwise) are small creatures trekking through a large (mostly barren) land. But is that the only explanation given to how they manage to evade Sauron? No. Through luck Pippin touched a palantir at Isengard and made Sauron think Saruman had captured the hobbits with the One Ring. Later Aragorn taunts him through a palantir and makes Sauron think the Ring is with Isildur's heir. Merry and Eowyn slay his highest general and put doubt into his mind about the strength of his army, and the armies of Gondor arrive at the Black Gate making him think they are trying to break in by force and take the Ring to Mount Doom. 

LoTR is not particularly brutal, but the logic of how the undertaking was accomplished is intact. Sure there are little inconsistencies with minor things, but the BIG THING is pretty well explained. 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[bijoux]

32 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

He grew on me after he killed Ygrette on the show. 

Jon didn't kill Ygritte. Olly shot an arrow through her. 

[tv-talk]

So if she had thrown the dagger from a tree she was hiding in and killed him it would have been a better story and scene? 

[benteen]

The only body in the crypts that might have had enough flesh on it to be a wight was Rickon.  That's the only wight that should have been able to come back from the dead.

Considering the North has such a long memory in regards to the Long Night, it's surprising they haven't been burning their dead all along.

I didn't think about Glover being dead but that's probably true.  Truth be told, on the show, it feels like Westeros is completely empty except for Winterfell and King's Landing.  That's an exaggeration of course but with how small the armies are and with so many of the major houses going down, that's what it feels like.

[Maximum Taco]

48 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

So if she had thrown the dagger from a tree she was hiding in and killed him it would have been a better story and scene? 

No. Because that doesn't explain how she infiltrated the godswood after the NK and his cronies arrive. 

The best option (IMO and without changing the rest of the episode/season entirely), would've been something like: The Night King stands before Bran, he draws his sword and raises it high above his head poised to strike him down. Bran stares at him, unafraid but clearly helpless, until he stands and swiftly stabs him with the Valyrian Steel dagger. Everyone shatters. "Bran" runs around to the other side of the weirwood where another Bran sits. Arya removes her Bran mask and embraces her brother.

This explains most of the issues. 

1) How did Arya infiltrate the godswood? She did it BEFORE the Night King arrived. Theon and the others helped her to replace Bran and hid him on the opposite side of the weirwood. You don't even need to explicitly state this, it would be obvious when she runs around to check on him. 

2) How did Arya get the drop on the Night King? He thought she was Bran, and since Bran was in close proximity he didn't realize she was a fake. This might require a little inferral from the audience, but the integrity of the logic is sound IMO. 

3) Why didn't Arya intervene when Theon was getting butchered, or atleast strike at the same time to improve their odds? She had committed to waiting until the NK got close. 

This also 

1) Cements the fact that ONLY Arya could have accomplished this. She's the only Faceless Man

2) Brings her supernatural powers into this fight for humanity. If now isn't the time to use everything in your arsenal, when is it time?

Edited May 3, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[taanja]

10 hours ago, rmontro said:

We've seen that at the religions of at least the Lord of Light and probably the Many-Faced God have some power in this world.  Was Sansa there to see Melisandre light the Dothraki torches?  Plus there's an army of dead people marching down their throats.  Might be a good time to regain some faith.

As for Arya, I thought the TV show did a good enough job of showing all of the training she had received, and all the things she had gone through.  The people who complain about Arya being the one to take out the Night King are going to find something to complain about anyway.  

On the behind the scenes special, they said it was assumed Jon Snow would take down the NK, but when the time came closer, it didn't seem right somehow, so they ended up having Arya do it.  They showed them filming the scene, and afterward the guy who played the NK, in full costume, gave her a high five, like "Good job", it's a pretty surreal sight.

I think Sansa's character is over the religion thing. Why would she suddenly start believing just because Mel lit up some torches? I'm sorry - that just doesn't make sense to me.

Anyway on the behind the scenes thing -- they said they knew for 3 years that Arya was going to be the one to kill the Night King.

[Constantinople]

42 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

The best option (IMO and without changing the rest of the episode/season entirely), would've been something like: The Night King stands before Bran, he draws his sword and raises it high above his head poised to strike him down. Bran stares at him, unafraid but clearly helpless, until he stands and swiftly stabs him with the Valyrian Steel dagger. Everyone shatters. "Bran" runs around to the other side of the weirwood where another Bran sits. Arya removes her Bran mask and embraces her brother.

I thought a Faceless Man/Woman could only wear the face of the dead

[Maximum Taco]

11 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I thought a Faceless Man/Woman could only wear the face of the dead

That's true in the novels, and the Faceless Man must also be the one to kill the face and "take" it.

The show plays pretty fast and loose with the rules though. Did Arya kill the serving wench she wore in the "Frey Pie" episode? 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[andipandi]

^ it was discussed elsewhere, arya stole the wench face from the faceless man temple. She made an effort not to kill innocents (frey wives, children, wenches)

I don't think Faceless men can mimic the 3eyed raven. The Night King can sense Bran via the weirwood wifi. Arya could not duplicate that.

Edited May 3, 2019 by andipandi

[Maximum Taco]

4 minutes ago, andipandi said:

I don't think Faceless men can mimic the 3eyed raven. The Night King can sense Bran via the weirwood wifi. Arya could not duplicate that.

I was under the impression that he senses Bran through the mark Bran wears. 

Also how accurate is that? Is it GPS accurate in which case he knows exactly where Bran is? Or is it more of a general "He's around here somewhere." or a "He's in that direction?"

In which case he could be fooled if Bran was still in the vicinity. 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Portia4844]

When I watched the episode live, I was struck by the NK entering the Godswood.  The wights stopped and parted for him to walk through.  My thought was that he stopped all of them and made it about himself and Bran.  I've rewatched numerous times and still get the same impression since they clearly stop, part to let him through, and then stand there with him while Theon attacks and while he walks towards Bran.  I might be giving the writers too much credit and seeing something that wasn't intended but it was why Arya moving through without being attacked made sense at the time.  

[tv-talk]

29 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Also how accurate is that? Is it GPS accurate in which case he knows exactly where Bran is? Or is it more of a general "He's around here somewhere." or a "He's in that direction?"

In which case he could be fooled if Bran was still in the vicinity. 

I think it seems as if he and Bran are actually communicating at time and there's no way he'd be fooled by Arya- but again, virtually anyway they did it would have some issue people could point out. My point in the NK killing Arya was not for brutality of it but rather the loss. At the end of the day this plague upon the world that had been in making for thousands of years which all humanity had to unite to stop...was unable to kill a single major character. For me that's the weakness in the story rather than the how and why's as to Arya managing to creep up on him.

[MVFrostsMyPie]

On 4/30/2019 at 6:46 PM, Chaser said:

I still can’t get over some of those military choices. I wonder what it would have looked like if Robb planned it.

A lot sexier. Mmm, Robb.

[sistermagpie]

I think the main reason Arya pretending to be Bran seems preferable (though if it had happened there'd still be problems found with it) is it makes it a plan Bran and she either worked out together, or a plan where Bran told her what to do, a plan that relies completely on the face skill instead of her fighting skills. Though as has been pointed out, Arya can't steal the face of a living person. (And it would be harder to put into practice at the last minute so that might need to be rewritten too.)

But there's a difference between not showing how something was done and it not being logical. The whole area is covered in mist so we don't see where Arya's jumping from. We know she slipped past a White Walker when there was a slight breeze. If "she's really good at sneaking--REALLY good at sneaking, as we just showed in the library to remind you)"--isn't enough to explain how she did it, it seems like that would still apply if they showed her sneaking past them after Theon appeared to be the last defense. 

[tv-talk]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

The whole area is covered in mist so we don't see where Arya's jumping from

maybe that's the answer, visibility was almost nil so she was able to get into position and take her chances.

[sistermagpie]

Just now, tv-talk said:

maybe that's the answer, visibility was almost nil so she was able to get into position and take her chances.

And we should probably remember that she didn't actually sneak up on him. He turned around and caught her easily. If it's really hard to believe she could sneak up on him, one could just imagine she didn't and he just waited for her to come to him to kill her.

[MadameKillerB]

I think she wanted it to go down that way. So she could surprise him with the knife trick. If she stabbed him in the back? Wouldn't have been the right spot (if you believe he had to be knifed in the spot where he was created).

[GodsBeloved]

3 minutes ago, MadameKillerB said:

I think she wanted it to go down that way. So she could surprise him with the knife trick. If she stabbed him in the back? Wouldn't have been the right spot (if you believe he had to be knifed in the spot where he was created).

This is what I thought too. She needed him to expose his center mass to her. But how did she know that's how he had to be killed ... oh non communicating Bran 😂

Edited May 3, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[tv-talk]

Yep I too thought the knife trick was her plan for sure. Of course how could she know he wouldnt just turn and devastate her in one blow rather than hold her up allowing for the trick? She didnt.

[FierceCritter]

On 4/29/2019 at 3:28 PM, Misplaced said:

Hmmmm I have always seen Jon Snow as the same kind of (superlative) leader as Hazel in Richard Adams’ *Watership Down*.  Yeah I know bunnies but bear (or indeed bunny) with me here. Hazel is the leader not because he’s the smartest (that’s Blackberry) or because he sees into the future (that’s Fiver) or because he’s the biggest (Bigwig) or even the bravest (arguably Captain Holly) but because he knows how to speak to the strengths in each person and drive the collective forward, because he forces his tribe to act as one by acting himself.  He doesn’t have to carry out the Great Actions to be Chief Rabbit - he inspires loyalty in part by being willing to risk his own neck, and that is ultimately why he is Chief Rabbit.

Yeah ok I just re-read WD but that logic makes sense to me. In short, Jon gets sh7t done one way or another. 

 Elil-Hrair-Rah!

(I read WD twice by the time I was 11, and many times since. Great analogy.)

[tv-talk]

Yeah I mean you can envision that if Sam blurted out "Jon is actually the heir to Iron Throne and King of the 7 Kingdoms" after the gasps everyone from the Night's Watch to the Freefolk to all the Northerners to Tyrion and Jorah and Danny herself would be all "yeah that does make sense, I mean just look what this dude has done"

[FemmyV]

4 hours ago, Affogato said:

Honestly people really have issues with female heroes. They nitpick them, mary sue them, clap loudly if the rise high and start to fall.It is hard to eradicate. 

Yep. Over in Freefolk, people are calling out the Mary Sue kids as incels.

[tv-talk]

5 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Yep. Over in Freefolk, people are calling out the Mary Sue kids as incels.

There is definitely a lot of ugliness out there as many movies and shows move towards featuring heroines getting the job done- it's just the way of the world. I just wish these people had read the books because then you love Arya and also truly appreciate what Sansa has gone thru and what she's become- they're real people and not just vying for the best scenes.

[FierceCritter]

Sorry if this has been stated - it's taking me too long to get through every single post and if it hasn't been said already, I wanted to blurt this out.

Bran knew the NK would be making a beeline for him. By planting himself where harm could easily have befallen him, he guaranteed that someone who could take a stab at killing the NK (not quite meant to be literal) would be able to know exactly where he would be once he could make his way through the melee to the Weirwood.

Bran may not have been much - if any - help in the battle. But he made it strategically easy for someone to be at the right place at the right time to take the NK down. 

(As to why didn't he at least warg Viserion, I don't know all the lore by rote, but can a technically dead animal/person be warged?)

Edited May 3, 2019 by FierceCritter

[iMonrey]

Quote

I think at this point all major houses are gone, except for the Lannisters and Starks. 

Robin Arryn is still alive as far as I know, although I think most of the Nights of the Vale were at the battle as well. Edmure Tully is still alive as well so House Tully is still there. House Greyjoy survives. There are undoubtedly other "great houses" that don't rule their respective kingdoms that are still kicking too. Not sure about House Martell - I think the Prince that was supposed to marry Myrcella Baratheon survived too. 

[proserpina65]

6 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

If any character snuck through an entire army and attacked a general in the open while drawing zero attention from his underlings I'd cry foul too if no explanation was given and none was, and I don't think one is forthcoming.

Except that they did show us Arya moving quickly and silently through the library, so, for me, they established the how well enough.  As always, ymmv.

5 hours ago, benteen said:

Considering the North has such a long memory in regards to the Long Night, it's surprising they haven't been burning their dead all along.

The Long Night seems to have been viewed as mostly legend by even the residents of the North (except Old Nan), so I'm not surprised that a thousand years later they aren't burning their dead.

As for Rickon being the only one with enough meat on his bones to be a wight, that first one to emerge from the tomb seemed fairly well preserved.  Maybe they mummify the dead in the North?

4 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

The show plays pretty fast and loose with the rules though. Did Arya kill the serving wench she wore in the "Frey Pie" episode? 

We didn't see it, but I assumed she had.  Either that, or it was a face she brought with her from the House of Black and White.

2 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Not sure about House Martell - I think the Prince that was supposed to marry Myrcella Baratheon survived too. 

No, Prince Trystane was on the same ship as Myrcella and Jaime, and was killed by two of the Sand Snakes.

But there are other major houses who aren't rulers of one of the Seven Kingdoms.

[bijoux]

1 minute ago, iMonrey said:

Not sure about House Martell - I think the Prince that was supposed to marry Myrcella Baratheon survived too. 

He didn't, the Sand Snakes killed him. 

[GodsBeloved]

2 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Not sure about House Martell - I think the Prince that was supposed to marry Myrcella Baratheon survived too. 

He was murdered by his cousin on the boat.

[Constantinople]

As for Arya sneaking up on the Night King in the Godswood, all I know is it was foreshadowed in the Season 8 premiere when Jon asks Arya how she snuck up on him in the Godswood

As for not showing us her supernatural stealth powers, there was no need for Arya to put on a face since the Night King probably doesn't know her from Adam. As for any other supernatural stealth powers she may have, I'm not sure how they would show that.

In the Season 3 premiere, when Daenerys almost got herself assassinated by the girl wizard, we see her jump off the pier and hear a splash. Then we see her standing on a roof far out of range. But we don't see how she managed to do that.

[domina89]

I love all the twists of fate in this series.  Think about this- when Arya saw Hot Pie at the inn, he told her about Jon which set her on her path to Winterfell to basically save humanity by killing the NK.  BUT... what if Hot Pie hadn't seen her?  Or told her about Jon?  Would she have gone to KL and crossed Cersei off her list?  If Cersei had been eliminated first, would Team Stargaryen be better or worse off?  Was Arya the ONLY one that could kill the NK?  If that's true, then Hot Pie saved humanity! 😂

The smart thing to do now would be to allow Arya to take her bag of faces to KL and get close to Cersei's maid, then take her face.  She could sneak in, take care of Cersei, and be out before anyone was the wiser.  Dany could secretly ask her to do this, not telling Tyrion because his loyalty is compromised, with the promise that the North could remain independent if Arya helps Dany take the throne without more bloodshed.  Everyone wins (except Cersei).  Of course this will never happen because of D & D and their preference for spectacle over intelligent writing.  Sigh.

Edited May 3, 2019 by domina89

[Constantinople]

43 minutes ago, domina89 said:

I love all the twists of fate in this series.  Think about this- when Arya saw Hot Pie at the inn, he told her about Jon which set her on her path to Winterfell to basically save humanity by killing the NK.  BUT... what if Hot Pie hadn't seen her?  Or told her about Jon?  Would she have gone to KL and crossed Cersei off her list?  If Cersei had been eliminated first, would Team Stargaryen be better or worse off?  Was Arya the ONLY one that could kill the NK?  If that's true, then Hot Pie saved humanity! 😂

One of the things I miss about Hot Pie is that , as far as I recall, he is the the only ordinary person in the show who remained ordinary.  Other "commoners" turn out to be bastard royals, are top advisors to a King or Queen, or have become knights or lords. Even Edd appeared to have been serving as the acting Commander of the Night's Watch.

But Hot Pie just keeps cooking and baking away, the only one who embodies what Jorah told Dany back in Season 1

Quote

The common people pray for rain, health and a summer that never ends. They don't care what games the high Lords play.

Still, it would have been nice to see him feeding people at Winterfell before the battle, even though that would have been total fan service

Edited May 3, 2019 by Constantinople

[rmontro]

11 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

I think where they failed was showing exactly how she accomplished it. This was obviously in service to the moment where she strikes, they wanted us to lose all hope for Bran and then have Arya spring to his rescue. The problem with this is it smacks of Deus ex Machina. Arya jumps at him, but from where?

I'm fine that they didn't show it, as you pointed out, she was capable, that's good enough for me.  Isn't the weirwood tree in a woods?  She could have climbed through the trees.  In my mind, she jumps from a tree when she attacks the Night King.  For all we knew, she could have been already in the tree before Bran was talking to Theon.  

Evading a zombie army is something they do on Walking Dead all the time, they just cover themselves with dead guts and the dead don't recognize them.  Arya still has her powers of disguise, does she not (and they appear to be somewhat supernatural in nature)?  Maybe she disguised herself as a zombie to get closer to where Bran was.  Plus she probably knew a shortcut from the castle to the godswood.

[AshleyN]

5 hours ago, Constantinople said:

As for Arya sneaking up on the Night King in the Godswood, all I know is it was foreshadowed in the Season 8 premiere when Jon asks Arya how she snuck up on him in the Godswood

52 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I'm fine that they didn't show it, as you pointed out, she was capable, that's good enough for me.  Isn't the weirwood tree in a woods?  She could have climbed through the trees.  In my mind, she jumps from a tree when she attacks the Night King.  For all we knew, she could have been already in the tree before Bran was talking to Theon. 

I agree with these two posts, and I'd also add that Arya grew up in Winterfell and was a very active, tomboyish child. She would likely know those woods like the back of her hand.

Everything we know about Arya's character explains how she has the skillset to pull this off. I don't really need the details spelled out for me.

[rmontro]

One more thing about this episode before I forget:

I've read a lot of posts talking about how the Hound was ready to give up, until he saw that "his baby, Arya" was being threatened, and that spurred him into action.  I just wanted to say that I didn't see that so much as a protective motivation.  I thought that seeing Arya fighting like she was shamed him into action.

Edited May 4, 2019 by rmontro

[MrsR]

7 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

14 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

If any character snuck through an entire army and attacked a general in the open while drawing zero attention from his underlings I'd cry foul too if no explanation was given and none was, and I don't think one is forthcoming.

Believable. Ever see the video studies with two basketball teams where people are asked to count how many passes the black team completed and then are asked later if they also noticed the dancing gorilla who walked through the scene? When people are intensely focused on one thing you'll miss the amazing.   

[Affogato]

18 hours ago, tv-talk said:

I think it seems as if he and Bran are actually communicating at time and there's no way he'd be fooled by Arya- but again, virtually anyway they did it would have some issue people could point out. My point in the NK killing Arya was not for brutality of it but rather the loss. At the end of the day this plague upon the world that had been in making for thousands of years which all humanity had to unite to stop...was unable to kill a single major character. For me that's the weakness in the story rather than the how and why's as to Arya managing to creep up on him.

Well they could have come back to find that everyone in the crypt  was dead. That would have made a lot of sense. Not only the people buried there but the dead coming in through escape routes built into the crypts. very tragic. 

Arya survives because she is insignificant and underestimated. If she is seen she isn't worth stopping. Look how easily she is stopped by the NK until she isn’t. 

[jeansheridan]

On 5/3/2019 at 6:50 AM, tv-talk said:

Another thing I liked about Arya killing him is the NK was too powerful for Jon or ANY human to beat in combat. The ONLY way he was going to lose was via stealth and/or trickery and that's Arya all the way. An

The show has set up the idea of being sneaky as a useful technique. Bronn saying he and 10 men could take the Eyre, Dany sending in three soldiers through the sewers to take Mereen, Tyrion using the sewers of Casterly Rock, the Wildings and their raiding parties. Or even the sneakiness of the Red Wedding and the Purple Wedding. Sometimes slyness wins the day. 

I still don't love the choreography of Arya's kill despite the awesome analysis up thread but I still can't believe Jon survived a damn ice lake with only Uncle Benjen. In some ways as the show's budget increased the battles got more improbable. I recently rewatched the Castle Black battle and so much more care was taken to show geography and defenses. And sniper Ygrette was impressive until someone sniped her. And Ghost got to play!

Edited May 4, 2019 by jeansheridan
Spelling

[jeansheridan]

20 hours ago, tv-talk said:

featuring heroines getting the job done- it's just the way of the world. I

But it doesn't need to be. When a dude gets it done, I don't mind. When a woman gets it done, why mind? It gets done! We don't need to keep thinking this way. 

Oh and I know you don't think this way! I just feel frustrated that this kind of thinking just won't fade. Because even show Arya has clearly been training for this moment.

Lyanna Mormant's kill was less probable but it looked neat.

Edited May 4, 2019 by jeansheridan

[BooBear]

On 5/3/2019 at 2:02 PM, tv-talk said:

There is definitely a lot of ugliness out there as many movies and shows move towards featuring heroines getting the job done- it's just the way of the world. I just wish these people had read the books because then you love Arya and also truly appreciate what Sansa has gone thru and what she's become- they're real people and not just vying for the best scenes.

I am typically with the incels because I dislike when a woman just wins the day without sufficient care taken to make it believable. But in this case Arya doing this was more than justified.  It is true that the show seemed to hint Jon would have some massive role but this show constantly makes you think a character is going to do something and then they come to nothing. Off the top of my head, Ned, Rob, Stannis.. all seemed fated for massive things only to have a quick and perfunctory end.