S08.E02: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms

[Drogo]

6 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

No love for Lannister on the bannister?

The Lannisters are sooo last season. 

 

1 minute ago, LadyChaos said:

Jon's succession is not about who has the 'right' genitalia or who is more most worthy.

There are a lot of people with penises on this show.  There are a lot of worthy people also.

None of those people are sitting on the Iron Throne.

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

That is quite a negative campaign ad against Jon Snow.   As I said, I am Dany for Iron Throne 2019, but many of those complaints against him aren't really valid and in other cases Dany shared in them  or made similar mistakes.

Was Jon really supposed to let Ramsey kill his little brother and the heir to House Stark, without trying to save him?  Yes, it was a "dumb" move, but it was also the human move and the brave move.   You could argue Dany was just as "dumb" for risking her own life and losing a dragon to save the beyond the wall party.  Both of them tend to be recklessly  righteous, rather than pragmatic.  

He was given the title of KITN by the Nothern Lords, because he had earned their respect with his courage and leadership.  

He brought the Wildlings in because a) they needed them to help fight the dead rather than become part of the NK's army b) It was the right thing to do.  

Dany signed off on the stupid, bring a wight to Cersei plan, so she shares in that blunder.

He didn't "abandon" the people of the North.  He risked his life going to Dragonstone to try to get what he needed to save them, and succeeded, bringing back not only tons of dragon glass, but huge armies and and pair of dragons.  

He bent the knee because he believed Dany was worthy of his allegiance and the allegiance of the North.   It was a bad move politically, IMO, but Jon is not a politician.   

Dany made similar questionable political decisions.  Executing, her loyal friend and subject Mossodar was perhaps the "right" thing to do,  but it caused her loyal supporters who she had liberated to turn against her viciously.   Burning the Tarly's was also questionable.  

Cersei (as Sansa gently reminder her) also got conned by Cersei.   

Jon and Dany are really a lot alike.  The Seven Kingdoms could do a whole lot worse than having either of them as ruler.   Neither are perfect, but both put their people first.  

I like this post.  Thanks for saving me a lot of typing.  

[larapu2000]

13 minutes ago, shockermolar said:

The thing is GoT is not THIS world, whether historical or present day. It is its own world and the writers have done a pretty specific job in showing what that world is.  It’s at heart a misogynistic society where women are not viewed as having an innate right to rule if there is a viable male candidate in their stead. However Jon is viewed, within the specific world creation that we are handed as viewers, his right to the throne supersedes Dany's.  Of course, that world as we have been shown, is being turned on its head in many different ways and on many different fronts. It doesn't HAVE to be like that, but that too is within the scope of what we are being shown, totally without any kind of outside perception of our own universe's reality now or previously.

Sigh.  I wasn't disputing who has a "better claim" to the Iron Throne.  I was pointing out the ridiculous insinuation that using modern sensibilities to point out the misogyny of the show and its patriarchal construct is perfectly fine, and it's not mired in some kind of "historical accuracy" loophole.  Creating a misogynistic fantasy world doesn't leave it immune from being able to criticize and analyze the misogyny.  I'm not sure why you think it does.

Further, it's always been my impression through the books and the show, that it doesn't matter who has a claim to the throne through parentage, it's about the worthiness of the person ascending, and getting that person to the throne, or about overthrowing the old traditions and ideals of a world where so many suffer needlessly and instituting a form of government or leadership that is by, for, and of the people.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

They haven't know each other long enough to have that kind of love. And I don't know why Dany's first thoughts should be on Jon's feelings. That news is a blow to her too. She spent the last 6 years with one goal, getting the Iron Throne. Now everything she did was for nothing. Jon has more of a right than her because he has a penis. They are both dealing with a lot. Jon doesn't know what Dany's been through to get where she is. He was thinking about his feelings not hers as well. 

I agree that Dany would have every right to be upset by the revelation that she is not first in line for the throne.  But, it has nothing to do with Jon's penis.   He is the only living, legitimate child of her older brother, who was firstborn and the one the succession runs through. 

If Dany were a man, she would still be behind Jon.  If Jon were a woman, Dany would still be behind her.   

[BooBear]

23 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I'm curious to see, which scene/interaction was the most emotional for everyone?

Honestly it was Davos with that little girl and Gilly stepping in to take care of her. It was kind of like Davos got reminded that there will always be the spirit of Shireen out there and always be people, like him, around to help them out.  If he is alive or not. It was almost like it was his recognition that he can move on now and rest. 

But if he does survive I want him to have to adopt her. 

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

No, (s)he wouldn't. It's no accident there's never been a ruling queen on the Iron Throne, and it was established in s1 that uncles come before nieces in the royal line.

Dany put two male heirs ahead of herself in s1. First Viserys, then her own son. That's who she she and Drogo planned to take the throne for, with no mention of her own rights. It was only after Rhaego's death in the finale that she considered herself a queen. 

Next you'll tell me women can't be knights

[Clanstarling]

1 minute ago, BooBear said:

26 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I'm curious to see, which scene/interaction was the most emotional for everyone?

Breinne getting knighted. It was so well played by everyone, but especially by Gwendolyn. I was choked up.

[LadyChaos]

38 minutes ago, AshleyN said:

I get that Jon is the closest thing this show has to to a traditional hero and that he's basically the only male contender among a bunch of women, which is a turnoff for people who look to this show to break conventions. And honestly, I'm not even sure myself if he'd be the best person to rule. But the narrative that he's incompetent or useless or that he's undeserving of any of the success he's had is tiresome, and honestly, pretty lazy. The dude has flaws, obviously, but so does every single character on the series. To me, the central theme of the series is less about how one should go about ruling, than the fact that ruling is HARD and that there's no one perfect way to do it. Sure, Sansa has done a good job managing the details as Lady of Winterfell, but Jon is the one with the ability to see the big picture, while Dany has the iron will to get the job done no matter lousy the odds. All of these traits are important.

Honestly, I don't think there is one person more suited then the other to sit the throne.  In a sense, I believe that Tywin was right.  A good King can't just be just, or wise, or strong, or honorable.  Because sometimes A Good King has to make choices that are not easy, for the good of the Kingdom.  I don't think anyone left, is the 'BEST' person to rule, honestly. 

Everyone left that has potential for the throne has their strengths and weakness, but no one left is really perfect for ruling.

Dany has a certain degree of ruthlessness to make the hard choice, but she lacks the skills to play politics when its necessary and often has to be counceled against being more ruthless than necessary.

Jon often sees the big picture, and will always put the people first, but he is too honorable. So its not that he can't play the game, and lie when it might be the right thing to do; its that he refuses too. Which means, that (like the scenario Tywin offered) if two fighting families come to him for aid, he will likely give his support to the one he feels needs it most, even if the decision costs him a major allie. 

Sansa has shown that she is capable of running Winterfell very well, she has even shown that she is capable of being ruthless and playing the game.  However she lacks the ability to see the bigger picture, and needs to learn to set aside her own person personal feelings and agenda for the better of the people.  IMO, I think Sansa is like a young Cersei without the incest. I can see her going down a slippery slop as a ruler, who slowly over time falls into this pattern of doing what she thinks best for herself, over her people.

Bran....isn't even human anymore......lets move on.

Gendry is an honorable, strong, fighter. However, he has no idea how to run anything except a blacksmith shop or how to play the game so no one in their right mind would support him for the throne.  At least Jon grew up in Winterfell and knows what it takes to run one.

Cersei's ass better be dead....lets move on.....

Jaime is strong, he knows how to be ruthless when it calls for it. He will do whatever he can to save the most about of people. However he is a soldier, not a leader; and honestly I think he so ashamed of some of the things he's done, that he wouldn't trust himself to be a good King.

I don't consider Arya an option at all because she will outright refuse in favor of being about to be the family assassin. 

Did I miss anyone?

[cambridgeguy]

54 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Those are modern terms of succession and it took centuries for them to be solidified. By the time Mary and Elizabeth Tudor came to the throne it was because there really were no male options left and they didn't have the French law barring all women and children of a female line in favor of distant male cousins. Hell, in the early years of the Normans/Angevins, adult brothers coming behind underage sons was hardly a settled rule either.

Well sure, because the reality is that the rules of succession are words on a piece of paper.  If you have enough strength then you get to jump over the "rightful" heir and while there might be some grumbling people will yield, one way or another although you may have to constantly watch your back for assassins and rebels.  Dany's army and dragons are loyal to her specifically, not House Targaryen in general, although we don't know if Rhaegal would hurt Dany if Jon wanted him to.  If she loses most of those forces in the battle against the AOTD and Cersei then this is irrelevant - she won't be able to hold the 7 Kingdoms together anyway because someone will rise up to throw off her rule.  If she gets out of this with the largest standing army and at least one dragon then she can declare herself queen and anyone who doesn't like it can either shut up or stare down a dragon's mouth. 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, larapu2000 said:

Sigh.  I wasn't disputing who has a "better claim" to the Iron Throne.  I was pointing out the ridiculous insinuation that using modern sensibilities to point out the misogyny of the show and its patriarchal construct is perfectly fine, and it's not mired in some kind of "historical accuracy" loophole.  Creating a misogynistic fantasy world doesn't leave it immune from being able to criticize and analyze the misogyny.  I'm not sure why you think it does.

Further, it's always been my impression through the books and the show, that it doesn't matter who has a claim to the throne through parentage, it's about the worthiness of the person ascending, and getting that person to the throne, or about overthrowing the old traditions and ideals of a world where so many suffer needlessly and instituting a form of government or leadership that is by, for, and of the people.

It is not really misogyny that might prevent Dany from ascending to the Iron Throne.  That is not to say that there is not misogyny (and misanthropy in general) in the fictional world of GOT.   

But it is primogeniture (which one could argue is just as arbitrary and unfair as gender based discrimination) that is blocking her path to the throne.

The current ruler of Westeros is a woman.  Dany was well on her way to becoming the new ruler (and she might still become that) before the revelation that her older brother has a surviving legitimate child created a new complication.

Primogeniture also made Joffrey king ahead of Tommen, which is not a choice that any sane group of people would make.   

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, Timetoread said:

Poor martyr Jon.  Nobody has ever suffered more.  Crown him quickly before he ascends full bodied into heaven.

On a personal note I'd take martyr over the white savior who's had throngs of brown and black ppl kneeling before her naked body and lifting her up calling her mommy... But that's not really the point... I never wrote and I really haven't seen many posts advocating for Jon to have the iron throne.. Especially to have it more so than Dany.. Dont really get why you seem to be so anti-jon snow ( and we've all read the posts.. They seem to have an anti-jon edge) .. He is just one of the many heroes of this tale

[Bryce Lynch]

8 minutes ago, BooBear said:

Honestly it was Davos with that little girl and Gilly stepping in to take care of her. It was kind of like Davos got reminded that there will always be the spirit of Shireen out there and always be people, like him, around to help them out.  If he is alive or not. It was almost like it was his recognition that he can move on now and rest. 

But if he does survive I want him to have to adopt her. 

I loved how Davos and especially Gilly protected the girl by convincing her that they needed her to help protect the people in the crypts, so going there was the brave thing to do.  

[shockermolar]

2 minutes ago, larapu2000 said:

Sigh.  I wasn't disputing who has a "better claim" to the Iron Throne.  I was pointing out the ridiculous insinuation that using modern sensibilities to point out the misogyny of the show and its patriarchal construct is perfectly fine, and it's not mired in some kind of "historical accuracy" loophole.  Creating a misogynistic fantasy world doesn't leave it immune from being able to criticize and analyze the misogyny.  I'm not sure why you think it does.

Further, it's always been my impression through the books and the show, that it doesn't matter who has a claim to the throne through parentage, it's about the worthiness of the person ascending, and getting that person to the throne, or about overthrowing the old traditions and ideals of a world where so many suffer needlessly and instituting a form of government or leadership that is by, for, and of the people.

Because that's not what you seem to be doing. Your posts read as indictments against viewers - like me - who are not actively here to analyze the misogynistic viewpoint of a television show that falls firmly within the sword & sorcerer genre, which is known specifically for it's misogynistic tendencies, or against viewers that can rightly present the real world historical representations of the various storylines presented within the GoT and trace them to their accurate roots of male dominated history.  Yes, the misogyny explicit in GoT is problematic, which is why suspension of disbelief can be required for viewing.  I'm not watching GoT to delve into rail against it's failings as viewed through a 21st century lens.  Whatever problems I have with that aspect of it I set aside, much as I do the inexplicably executed travel timelines.  You don't need to 'sigh' at me as if I am too simple minded to understand you point. I just disagree with your point and wonder why, if you have so much to criticize based on a having a viewpoint not intrinsic to the created world of the show or even the novels, you bother to watch them or read them.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, UNOSEZ said:

On a personal note I'd take martyr over the white savior who's had throngs of brown and black ppl kneeling before her naked body and lifting her up calling her mommy... But that's not really the point... I never wrote and I really haven't seen many posts advocating for Jon to have the iron throne.. Especially to have it more so than Dany.. Dont really get why you seem to be so anti-jon snow ( and we've all read the posts.. They seem to have an anti-jon edge) .. He is just one of the many heroes of this tale

Exactly.  There are so many legitimately hateable characters in this show, that I don't get how anyone could have so much animosity towards generally heroic characters like Jon or Dany.  I also don't get all the Jon vs. Sansa, and Sansa vs. Dany feuds.  

They are all basically good characters, who have suffered a lot, and have good intentions, but disagreements of what is best for Westeros and the North.  

[Lady S.]

19 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

You point is still moot because Jon still is ahead of her in line of succession, regardless of sex.

I know how primogeniture works, and you don't know your history if you think it's always been a set and unquestioned process in our world history or even more specifically the British royal family. There is no always. That's why I provided quotes proving that traditionally younger brothers come before the elder brother's daughters in Westeros royalty.

Go back before Victoria and Liz II. Henry Tudor's (distant) blood claim came from his mother, who was still alive, and yet he took the throne instead of her. He married Elizabeth of York, eldest surviving child of Edward IV, whose brothers were both dead, yet she was only considered a bargaining chip by all sides to legitimize someone else's rule, not an heiress in her own right. Their granddaughters, Mary I and Elizabeth I, were the first ruling queens, but not the first daughters of kings or crown princes to have no living brothers. A whole bunch of shit happened in the meantime including Henry VIII's quest for a male heirs and killing off his male cousins.

GoT is a lot closer to the Wars of the Roses years or even earlier than the Elizabethan or Victorian era. 

[CherryMalotte]

Quote

Ser Jorah is still all sex and devotion and honor dripping in garlic butter.  Why does no one love him again?

Tormund is my bacon, but yeah, I wouldn't refuse Jorah a tour around the godswood.
 

3 hours ago, Last Time Lord said:

Ghost and Nymeria hooking up! That's my biggest "ship." I'd love a last scene of the show with new baby direwolves being born. Circle of life, and all that. Something Stark enduring.

I'd foster those puppies.  

[Growsonwalls]

1 minute ago, CherryMalotte said:

Tormund is my bacon, but yeah, I wouldn't refuse Jorah a tour around the godswood.

Issue with Jorah is that a roll in the hay with him would lead to him screaming out "Dany!" as he's about to climax which would lead to bad feelings for whichever not-Dany girl he bedded.

[DarkRaichu]

18 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Did I miss anyone?

Tyrion is so sure of himself he made miscalculations after miscalculations.  Plus he is more of a softy and would not be able to be as ruthless as Tywin / Dany

Sam is such a book nerd he would rather live in the Citadel for the rest of his life

Davos, Jorah, Brianne lacked the ambition

Varys would rather be the puppeteer pulling the strings behind the scene

Edited April 22, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[LadyChaos]

1 minute ago, Lady S. said:

I know how primogeniture works, and you don't know your history if you think it's always been a set and unquestioned process in our world history or even more specifically the British royal family. There is no always. That's why I provided quotes proving that traditionally younger brothers come before the elder brother's daughters in Westeros royalty.

Go back before Victoria and Liz II. Henry Tudor's (distant) blood claim came from his mother, who was still alive, and yet he took the throne instead of her. He married Elizabeth of York, eldest surviving child of Edward IV, whose brothers were both dead, yet she was only considered a bargaining chip by all sides to legitimize someone else's rule, not an heiress in her own right. Their granddaughters, Mary I and Elizabeth I, were the first ruling queens, but not the first daughters of kings or crown princes to have no living brothers. A whole bunch of shit happened in the meantime including Henry VIII's quest for a male heirs and killing off his male cousins.

GoT is a lot closer to the Wars of the Roses years or even earlier than the Elizabethan or Victorian era. 

I SAID that it doesn't matter that DANY IS A GIRL BECAUSE....Jon is the last born heir of the first born child of the King.....therefore REGARDLESS OF GENDERS.....Jon still supersedes Dany's claim.  Because ANY CHILD Rhaegar had has a higher claim to the throne than Dany does by rules of succession.

Just now, DarkRaichu said:

Tyrion is so sure of himself he made miscalculations after miscalculations.  Plus he is more of a softy and would not be able as ruthless as Tywin / Dany

Sam is such a book nerd he would rather live in the Citadel for the rest of his life

Davos, Jorah, Brianne lacked the ambition

Varys would rather be the puppeteer pulling the strings behind the scene

Thank you!

[taanja]

2 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Hmm, I thought the point of this story was not so much about what he did but about how he got to be so big (ie due to giant's milk).  If his body is big because of the milk, guess which of his anatomy is also big because of the giant's milk. 😉

But yeah he got no game.

To each his own-- Tormund's game was Fiiiiiine!

[ToniG]

7 hours ago, terrymct said:

Check out Dany watching that.  Uh huh, Dragon girl.  No one in Westeros other than those you brought with you (primarily Jorah and the slaves you freed, Tyrion is more complex) feel any sort of dedication to you like you just saw there.    They don't know you.  They have no emotional investment in you.  You're an old rumor, the living extension of a story from the bad old days.   They need your army and your dragons.   Other than that, you're nothing to them.  I wish she'd realize that and start to think about how to establish herself.

This.

Now, about Dany’s dragons. We know that Jon rode one, but as the true heir to the Iron Throne, what are the chances that they will obey Jon and not Dany at some point? Or, she’ll try to use them against him, and they turn on her?

There’s an odd vibe about her from last week’s episode that I can’t pin down, and I wouldn’t be sorry to see her fall.

[ToniG]

5 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Are we supposed to suppose that because Jon was her brother's child and has a penis that she should just GIVE him everything, become his concubine, so he can just casually saunter up to the throne?  The thought of that pisses me off because it feels EXTREMELY sexist.  

Not because he was her brother’s child, but because he was the king’s son and heir. Big difference.

[MadameKillerB]

25 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Sansa has shown that she is capable of running Winterfell very well, she has even shown that she is capable of being ruthless and playing the game.  However she lacks the ability to see the bigger picture"

This part in your post: totally agree. I think this is her Stark-ness showing.

[Constantinople]

50 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

sucession works like this:

Current ruler: A

A has 4 legitimate children, in order they are called B,C,D, and E.

B, because they are the first born, they are first in line in succession.  So if A, dies today, they succeed to the throne.  Siblings C,D,and E are 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in line for the throne, and only can take the throne if all ahead of them in line of succession dies.

Now A is not dead, but B marries and has 4 children of their own; F, G, H, and I.  Now all of B's children succeed C,D, and E's claim to the throne.  Since B is the first born of A and 1st in line for the throne, so would their first born be 2nd in line for the throne. G,H, and I are 3rd, 4th, and fifth respectively.

Now A is still ruler, B is first in line for the throne, and F 2nd in line for the throne. So if A still rules, and somehow B dies, F is now second in line for the throne. 

Line of succession is always First born from first born from first born.

Except when it isn't.

There's a real life example of A having 4 legitimate sons: B, C, D and E.  B & D died before A, B died childless, but D had a legitimate son X. C became King after A died. When C died childless, it was E who succeeded, not X.

Plus, there have been plenty of laws passed over time altering the laws of succession: barring foreigners, permitting bastards, barring Catholics, etc.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Constantinople

[Bryce Lynch]

23 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Honestly, I don't think there is one person more suited then the other to sit the throne.  In a sense, I believe that Tywin was right.  A good King can't just be just, or wise, or strong, or honorable.  Because sometimes A Good King has to make choices that are not easy, for the good of the Kingdom.  I don't think anyone left, is the 'BEST' person to rule, honestly. 

Everyone left that has potential for the throne has their strengths and weakness, but no one left is really perfect for ruling.

Dany has a certain degree of ruthlessness to make the hard choice, but she lacks the skills to play politics when its necessary and often has to be counceled against being more ruthless than necessary.

Jon often sees the big picture, and will always put the people first, but he is too honorable. So its not that he can't play the game, and lie when it might be the right thing to do; its that he refuses too. Which means, that (like the scenario Tywin offered) if two fighting families come to him for aid, he will likely give his support to the one he feels needs it most, even if the decision costs him a major allie. 

Sansa has shown that she is capable of running Winterfell very well, she has even shown that she is capable of being ruthless and playing the game.  However she lacks the ability to see the bigger picture, and needs to learn to set aside her own person personal feelings and agenda for the better of the people.  IMO, I think Sansa is like a young Cersei without the incest. I can see her going down a slippery slop as a ruler, who slowly over time falls into this pattern of doing what she thinks best for herself, over her people.

Bran....isn't even human anymore......lets move on.

Gendry is an honorable, strong, fighter. However, he has no idea how to run anything except a blacksmith shop or how to play the game so no one in their right mind would support him for the throne.  At least Jon grew up in Winterfell and knows what it takes to run one.

Cersei's ass better be dead....lets move on.....

Jaime is strong, he knows how to be ruthless when it calls for it. He will do whatever he can to save the most about of people. However he is a soldier, not a leader; and honestly I think he so ashamed of some of the things he's done, that he wouldn't trust himself to be a good King.

I don't consider Arya an option at all because she will outright refuse in favor of being about to be the family assassin. 

Did I miss anyone?

Tyrion?

Davos?

Varys?

The Hound?

Brienne?

Greyworm?

Lyanna Mormont? (I think if she glares at the NK, he will turn around and flee North).

Hotpie?

[Chris24601]

31 minutes ago, Kate47 said:

This is a really interesting post. I wanted to ask if her dragons would also be considered a symbol of her authority, and if she needs to give them up as well.

I don’t know that she has to deliberately give them up (in the sense of setting them free in the Grass Sea of Essos or something) to pass the test of character... just that she needs to gain respect and authority without falling back on “I have dragons” as her primary implement of enforcing her will.

Let’s look at the other King archetype in the story; Jon. He was able to unite warring factions for a common cause without any sort of dragon giving him the ability to enforce his will. It’s no accident that as Jon and Sansa are out asking old family allies for aid against Ramsey, Dany is taking advantage of her fire immunity to murder the Khals, having the Dothraki bowing to her like a goddess and then psyching them up for war (“what will you do for ME?”) from the back of a dragon. He becomes King based solely on people’s faith in him... not “I have dragons.”

This isn’t to say Jon is without flaws. He is perilously close to the opposite Shadow King from Dany... the Impotent King (Dany masks her insecurity with shows of power... Jon’s insecurity manifests as surrendering his power at the first good opportunity).

Also of note for those hoping for Jonerys still happening... that’s so dead not even the Night King could reanimate it. After the “best spend your last hours with your loved ones” at the end of the war council, Dany was clearly looking at Jon like she wanted a booty call, but Jon had already ghosted out of there like “NOPE! Not gonna spend my last hours banging my aunt!”

But the other reason it’s dead is because two opposing shadow archetypes don’t balance each out; they make each other worse. Whoever gets the Throne is the one who finds their center and becomes the True King archetype.

The primary means of attaining the King archetype is through coming together with the Lover (usually the first, provides initial encouragement and council), Magician (provides hidden knowledge that empowers them) and Warrior (reminds them of the importance of loyalty to a larger cause) archetypes.

That’s the Starks and their relationship to Jon in a nutshell. He reunited with Sansa first and she’s the one who initially pushed him to fight for Winterfell. Bran has supplied him the secret knowledge that completely recasts his relationship to Dany. Arya is reminding Jon of the importance of loyalty to his family.

Reunion with the Stark pack is THE archetypal formula for Jon to shift from Impotent King to True King.

Likewise, for Dany to go from her shadow to True King, she too will need to find some synthesis with a Lover, Magician and Warrior.

Her biggest problem is that her advisors are actually the shadow archetypes of the Lover (Tyrion the Addict; whose obsession with their desires blinds them), Magician (Varys the Manipulator; who keeps secrets to advance their own schemes instead of to enlighten... and wants to control Dany for the good of the Realm) and Warrior (Jorah the Masochist; who believes he has no worth save to die for the cause).

The only way for Dany to grow is for her council to do so first or for her to find new advisors (ironically, her instinct to dump Tyrion was actually the correct one to follow the the course of evolving into a “King” until Jorah the Masochist archetype convinces her to keep him because he doesn’t value himself enough to step in as her loyal Hand).

What Dany really needs is for Greyworm and Missandre to reassert themselves as the Warrior and Lover archetypes in her life and to rid herself of Tyrion and Varys (Dany was at her strongest with Greyworm/Warrior, Missandre/Lover and Barristan Selmy/Magician as her chief advisors... she’s grown weaker relying on Tyrion, Varys and Jorah).

At least that’s my read on it.

[Lady S.]

1 minute ago, LadyChaos said:

I SAID that it doesn't matter that DANY IS A GIRL BECAUSE....Jon is the last born heir of the first born child of the King.....therefore REGARDLESS OF GENDERS.....Jon still supersedes Dany's claim.  Because ANY CHILD Rhaegar had has a higher claim to the throne than Dany does by rules of succession.

I'm not actually interested in de-railing this thread anymore discussing the rules of succession, which is pointless because Jon doesn't care. Shouting doesn't change the fact that we know from s1 that daughters do not come before royal brothers in Westeros and that girls did not have equal claims even without brothers through most of British history. What you're speaking of are fairly modern rules but if you're unwilling to consider any words about real world history or established show canon, I give up.

[dragonsbite]

I like the symbology of all the sword-swapping that has happened in GOT for the famous Valyrian steel swords, implying how Westeros is changing:

• Brienne & Jaime have the Stark blade (Ice remade into two swords)
• Jon (the Stark bastard) has the Mormont blade
• Jorah Mormont has the Tarly blade*

However, I'm concerned about the fate of all those swords once their handlers die on the battlefield. Will anyone else pick them up or will the Valyrian steel swords end up buried in the snow? If they're just lost in the snow, what was the purpose of talking so much about that special steel?

*Is Heart's Bane the same size that Ice was? Sure looked huge.

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Except when it isn't.

There's a real life example of A having 4 legitimate sons: B, C, D and E.  B & D died before A, B died childless, but D had a legitimate son X. C became King after A died. When C died childless, it was E who succeeded, not X.

Plus, there have been plenty of laws passed over time altering the laws of succession: barring foreigners, permitting bastards, barring Catholics, etc.

But, you are talking about exceptions.  The rule in a primogeniture system is that the line flows through the firstborn.  

[MadameKillerB]

You all crack me up. It's a show. It has it's own rules about succession, which may or may not be based on historical practices. And the writers can break their own rules if they want. We're along for the ride 🙂

[DarkRaichu]

7 minutes ago, dragonsbite said:

*Is Heart's Bane the same size that Ice was? Sure looked huge.

It looks longer but Ice was wider. IIRC of course

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, MadameKillerB said:

You all crack me up. It's a show. It has it's own rules about succession, which may or may not be based on historical practices. And the writers can break their own rules if they want. We're along for the ride 🙂

But, the writers have made it clear that Jon outranks Dany because he was the trueborn son of her older brother Rhaegar.   

We all know what the rules are.  The question is whether Dany will follow them or if Jon will even want her to follow them, assuming the point is not made moot by one or both of them dying in the battle.  

[GraceK]

19 minutes ago, ToniG said:

Now, about Dany’s dragons. We know that Jon rode one, but as the true heir to the Iron Throne, what are the chances that they will obey Jon and not Dany at some point? Or, she’ll try to use them against him, and they turn on her?

Dragons don’t care about the iron throne . Jon may have rode Rhaegal, but that doesn’t mean he will turn on his mother , and Drogon is bonded and connected to Daenerys. When Viserion died both Dragons roared in pain. This idea that because Jon rode Rhaegal they are gonna suddenly turn on their mother is a fantasy of every anti dany fan. That and having Jon feed her to her own dragons. Even if Rhaegal bonds with Jon, he is not gonna turn on Daenarys, and Drogon  will never obey anyone else or hurt his mother. 

[millennium]

2 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Did you guys see this?

Call me old-fashioned but I think it's pretty sick to do a Sesame Street - GoT crossover.   Amusing, yes.  But so very wrong.

[Growsonwalls]

4 minutes ago, millennium said:

Call me old-fashioned but I think it's pretty sick to do a Sesame Street - GoT crossover.   Amusing, yes.  But so very wrong.

This actually isn't the first one:

[LadyChaos]

1 hour ago, ToniG said:

There’s an odd vibe about her from last week’s episode that I can’t pin down, and I wouldn’t be sorry to see her fall.

1 hour ago, ToniG said:

Not because he was her brother’s child, but because he was the king’s son and heir. Big difference.

This is a big  and important distinction. 

Also....maybe Dany is acting weird because she already suspects she might be pregnant?

53 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But, you are talking about exceptions.  The rule in a primogeniture system is that the line flows through the firstborn.  

This! Thank you!  There are always exceptions, loopholes, and distinction. I was doing a basic layout of how succession works.  There are always going to be cases where it is not the case, however the basic line of succession stays the same.  Unless something happens like Jon abdicating his right to the throne and supporting Dany, dying, they agree to split the continent (unlikely), the current government is over thrown for another system.  It stands to reason that Jon is next in line for the throne because he is the last living child of the first born. 

45 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But, the writers have made it clear that Jon outranks Dany because he was the trueborn son of her older brother Rhaegar.   

We all know what the rules are.  The question is whether Dany will follow them or if Jon will even want her to follow them, assuming the point is not made moot by one or both of them dying in the battle.  

I do wonder this.  I don't see Dany wanting to play by the rules. The question I think is, now that she knows she actually is not the rightful heir to the throne, she now needs to decide if she even really wants it or if she was only trying to take it to honor her family as the last Targaeryen.  I think, if she decides she really wants it, nothing not even Jon would stop her.

Edited April 22, 2019 by LadyChaos

[Absurda]

Jon has already bent the knee to Dany, so an argument could be made that he's already acknowledged her as the legitimate ruler of Westeros.  Whether he knew his parentage at the time or not, he's bent the knee and he's not the type to go back on that.  His existence does throw a spanner in Dany's PR campaign of being the last legit Targ heir, but she can work around that.

One of Dany's big problems is (if we believe Dothraki woman) she can't have any more children.  So, she doesn't have an obvious heir or a way to establish a dynasty.  Jon being a Targ could create an opportunity there.  In my mind, here's how the whole thing could be resolved:  Jon remains King in the (Independent) North while Dany takes the Iron Throne and rules 6 kingdoms.  Jon marries, has a kid as heir.  That heir is named successor to both crowns and eventually unites the kingdoms together as a combination Northern and Targ ruler.  Sort of like James VI/I did with Scotland and England.  Though allowing the North independence in her lifetime would be a big sacrifice for Dany, it does set up the Targ line as ruling beyond her time.

One of my favorite scenes (other than the Tormund/Jon tackle) was Jamie telling Brianne he'd be honored to fight under her command.  That, to me, was a great character moment.  I also loved all the WTF faces after Tormond told his giant story. 

[MarySNJ]

48 minutes ago, dragonsbite said:

I like the symbology of all the sword-swapping that has happened in GOT for the famous Valyrian steel swords, implying how Westeros is changing:

• Brienne & Jaime have the Stark blade (Ice remade into two swords)
• Jon (the Stark bastard) has the Mormont blade
• Jorah Mormont has the Tarly blade*

However, I'm concerned about the fate of all those swords once their handlers die on the battlefield. Will anyone else pick them up or will the Valyrian steel swords end up buried in the snow? If they're just lost in the snow, what was the purpose of talking so much about that special steel?

*Is Heart's Bane the same size that Ice was? Sure looked huge.

Well, Sam tells Jorah "I can't hold it upright" so it's definitely a big ass sword like Ice was. 

[meep.meep]

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

The Lannisters are sooo last season. 

Well excuuuuze me!  Guess who's sitting on the Iron Throne now!  And, as we all know, possession is nine tenths of the Game of Thrones.  Otherwise you're just wandering around, making dire threats about the "usurpers" and hoping people start following you.

[QuantumMechanic]

5 hours ago, taurusrose said:

And as an aside, the queen just did away with that type of nonsense when Kate was expecting her first child.

The queen may have changed some internal rules about what the royals can do amongst themselves and how they treat each other, but in the modern UK (and probably since at least 1688) the line of succession is set by Parliament.  Only Parliament can change it.  The monarch can't unilaterally change it.

Edited April 22, 2019 by QuantumMechanic

[GraceK]

8 minutes ago, Absurda said:

Jon has already bent the knee to Dany, so an argument could be made that he's already acknowledged her as the legitimate ruler of Westeros.  Whether he knew his parentage at the time or not, he's bent the knee and he's not the type to go back on that.  His existence does throw a spanner in Dany's PR campaign of being the last legit Targ heir, but she can work around that.

One of Dany's big problems is (if we believe Dothraki woman) she can't have any more children.  So, she doesn't have an obvious heir or a way to establish a dynasty.  Jon being a Targ could create an opportunity there.  In my mind, here's how the whole thing could be resolved:  Jon remains King in the (Independent) North while Dany takes the Iron Throne and rules 6 kingdoms.  Jon marries, has a kid as heir.  That heir is named successor to both crowns and eventually unites the kingdoms together as a combination Northern and Targ ruler.  Sort of like James VI/I did with Scotland and England.  Though allowing the North independence in her lifetime would be a big sacrifice for Dany, it does set up the Targ line as ruling beyond her time.

One of my favorite scenes (other than the Tormund/Jon tackle) was Jamie telling Brianne he'd be honored to fight under her command.  That, to me, was a great character moment.  I also loved all the WTF faces after Tormond told his giant story. 

But that’s way to logical. Stop making sense please. Bye now!!!! 😂

no but really, they are milking drama out of this. These past two episodes seem purposely written to make the audience forget just how reasonable Dany can be and what exactly went down last season in an attempt to make us as conflicted as possible about her character I think. And it’s working. The Dany hate has gone up to insane levels and a lot of people are convinced she’s gonna go mad queen. I am not in that camp, and I don’t think we are headed for a succession crisis or a D of D . 2, I think it’s a misdirect. Call me an optimist 😊 

Edited April 22, 2019 by GraceK

[BooBear]

7 hours ago, Timetoread said:

Brienne.  Bout time somebody knighted her.  I just wish she would have a decent man actually interested in her.  Tormund is funny but he is also disrespectful.  It just continues to feed into the ugly girl trope that she should be happy with whatever attention she can get, not that she's worthy of a man who is her equal and who loves her.

I wanted to go back to this. I am not sure what they are doing with Tormund but he is verging on insulting. I can see that he might be nervous and not know how to act but it has been going on too long. We know Tormund is adorable but she doesn't and he isn't doing a very good job. I am guessing this isn't going to get resolved properly but I think Jamie / Brienne is massively complex and I would kind of like to delve a bit into that and stop it with the wacky Tormund crush. Of course it was adorable for Jamie to realize someone else is interested. But Tormund's buffoonery kind of ruined it. 

[LadyChaos]

1 minute ago, GraceK said:

But that’s way to logical. Stop making sense please. Bye now!!!! 😂

no but really, they are milking drama out of this. These past two episodes seem purposely written to make the audience forget just how reasonable Dany can be and what exactly went down last season in an attempt to make us as conflicted as possible about her character I think. And it’s working. I don’t think we are headed for a succession crisis or a D of D . 2, I think it’s a misdirect. Call me an optimist 😊 

I agree.  I don't honestly think it matters who is 1st or 2nd in line for the throne.  I actually think there won't be a throne left. 

[GraceK]

Just now, BooBear said:

I wanted to go back to this. I am not sure what they are doing with Tormund but he is verging on insulting. I can see that he might be nervous and not know how to act but it has been going on too long. We know Tormund is adorable but she doesn't and he isn't doing a very good job. I am guessing this isn't going to get resolved properly but I think Jamie / Brienne is massively complex and I would kind of like to delve a bit into that and stop it with the wacky Tormund crush. Of course it was adorable for Jamie to realize someone else is interested. But Tormund's buffoonery kind of ruined it. 

I think they found something the audience loved and latched on. According to Inside the episode, Tormunds actor did say it was genuine love on his side. 🤷🏻‍♀️ I think the writers just don’t know when to quit when they think something is funny.

[Luckylyn]

Dany has always only known the idea that she’s entitled to rule by birthright as justification.   Finding out Jon has a claim shakes things up.  Plus the people of Westeros have made it clear they see her as a foreign conquerer.  Jon isn’t ambitious in that way and has no desire to shove Dany out of the way.  Still, there are a lot of people who if they knew the truth would ally themselves with Jon simply because they consider him to be one of them.  They will push to get rid of Dany regardless of what Jon wants or does.  So this revelation means Dany needs to think about how to win the hearts and minds of Westeros and not just rely on birthright alone.  This show had shown that birthright by itself the isn’t enough to succeed long term.  People have to be willing to back you.

[Azi]

13 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

This show had shown that birthright by itself the isn’t enough to succeed long term.  People have to be willing to back you.

"Power resides where men believe it resides." essentially.

(Also your icon hurts me Q_Q)

[LadyChaos]

7 hours ago, Timetoread said:

Brienne.  Bout time somebody knighted her.  I just wish she would have a decent man actually interested in her.  Tormund is funny but he is also disrespectful.  It just continues to feed into the ugly girl trope that she should be happy with whatever attention she can get, not that she's worthy of a man who is her equal and who loves her.

2 minutes ago, BooBear said:

I wanted to go back to this. I am not sure what they are doing with Tormund but he is verging on insulting. I can see that he might be nervous and not know how to act but it has been going on too long. We know Tormund is adorable but she doesn't and he isn't doing a very good job. I am guessing this isn't going to get resolved properly but I think Jamie / Brienne is massively complex and I would kind of like to delve a bit into that and stop it with the wacky Tormund crush. Of course it was adorable for Jamie to realize someone else is interested. But Tormund's buffoonery kind of ruined it. 

Honestly, I don't think they going for the ugly girl trope at all.  I think its clear that Brienne doesn't seek the company of men and would never choose someone just because he gave her attention.  Just the opposite, she clearly is disgusted by Turmunds actions and behavior towards her.  It creeps her out.  On the other hand, she has loved two men her whole like.  Renly, whom she never expected anything from, but treated her with respect and didn't treat her like dirt because she was a girl who wanted to be a knight. And Jaime, who, thought openly hostile in the beginning, respects her and admires her.  I think that Jaime does love Brienne, but is afraid to love her. 

[AnnaL]

6 hours ago, Wendy said:

I loved that scene as well. Sansa's concerns are completely valid and I am glad she voiced them, she has the welfare of her people at the front and center as it should be. I thought for a moment when Daenerys admitted that she had followed Jon only out of love, WOW, really? you didn't do it because of the real threat that the WW present to the kingdom that you want to rule but basically you dragged your troops and endangered your dragons because you felt in love? Maybe it is a Targaryen trait to make this kind of decisions. Oh well, it works to protect the North and Winterfell so more power to her. 

Out of the conversation between Sansa and Danaerys, this part was the most revealing. Danaerys admitting that the welfare of Westeros and specifically the North meant nothing to her, she followed Jon out of love. Let's say that instead of Jon, the North sent only Davos or Sansa, there is not one chance that Daenerys would have help them. Not a one, and this coming out of Danaery's own mouth. 

I think that might be why Sansa laughed, that admission was certainly very honest but also very stupid. For as stubborn and honest as Jon seems to be, at least he hasn't flat out say it. For the dragon queen to say something like that to Sansa who basically represents the interest of the north, it is very  telling of were she is at and how she will rule. 

She should have tried to embellish it a little bit, she should have said "I saw the AOTD and I was convinced that it was my responsibility and privilege to come and save the people of my kingdom defeat this great threat."  If I was a Dotraki, unsullied or anybody who followed her from Essos, that is a slap in the face. She has put them in the direct path of death, not out of conviction, not out of duty and honor, not for a higher call as a Queen, NOPE, she has put their lives at risk because she fell in love with a guy she just met few months ago.

I can't even imagine the outrage and the cries of GOT fans if Sansa would have used the phrase "Jon's war" , really? I thought this was the war from the living against the death. I guess I was wrong.  

[Drogo]

16 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Well, Sam tells Jorah "I can't hold it upright" so it's definitely a big ass sword like Ice was. 

Samwell Killer of Whitewalkers Lover of Women can't get it up.

[Luckylyn]

1 minute ago, Azi said:

"Power resides where men believe it resides." essentially.

(Also your icon hurts me Q_Q)

I know between The Magicians finale and next weeks battle I’m gonna just cry a river.  I’m so worried about who’s going to die.