Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (2019)

[TVSpectator]

11 hours ago, Anduin said:

Do you have any source for these rumours? From everything I've heard over the years, it's pretty much the opposite. JJ didn't bother to leave anything behind, and as of a couple of months back, Rian Johnson was still confident about Star Wars.

All I really have are people talking on Youtube for the past two years about TLJ. Also I could swear that JJ even came out and (vaguely) admitted that his ideas weren't used in TLJ but I can't find it as of now (maybe later I can link to something in an edit). Note, here is an article  from March that states that Daisy Ridley said that JJ did have a plan for this trilogy but Johnson threw it out:

https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/925958/Star-Wars-8-Rian-Johnson-JJ-Abrams-Last-Jedi-outline-plot-script-Daisy-Ridley

But here is an article from like August with JJ saying that Johnson didn't derail his plans:

https://www.indiewire.com/2019/08/jj-abrams-rian-johnson-derail-star-wars-story-1202169944/

 

But overall the main consensus among hardcore Star Wars fans is that Rain Johnson thew whatever plans JJ had out the window and that this movie tried to course correct everything (and this movie kinds of proves that certain unpopular things about TLJ were kind of sidelined and Rey's lineage was retcon to now be from one of most powerful villains in the franchise). But please take everything with giant grains of salt because these are just rumors because nothing really was confirmed 100%. I also doubt that anything will be 100% confirmed as well. 

 

 

As with KK leaving- that is more speculation but with Feige's Star Wars on the horizon it seems that Disney is not happy with the current state of Star Wars. Solo was a failure and from what I heard KK was the one who got rid of Lord and Miller and brought Ron Howard onto the project- which also lead to reshoots- which probably added to Solo's budget. Also, rumors of poor testing for TROS seems to have align with rumors of reshoots. Granted these are all just rumors but I would guess that Dave Filoni might be replacing KK within a few years anyways- and this is more speculation on my part but Filoni seems to be kind of popular with the current fan base and he has the success of The Mandalorian under his belt as well.  

[Traveller519]

I was pretty Meh on this one. I think endings are hard for Storytellers when you're crossing multiple iterations/series, and especially when you have a rabid fan base who for better or worse has its own ideas about how to end it. So I am willing to give Abrams and crew a good bit of latitude here.

I liked the Force Awakens for its ability to reset the tenor and spirit of the films, although in reflection it was a very close rehashing of A New Hope. I LOVED Rogue One because it told a captivating story and presumed you were up to speed on everything going on around the story and the battle scenes were amazing. I really enjoyed The Last Jedi, despite some of its flaws, because it felt like we were going to go in a new direction to close out the story. I really disliked Solo, because it felt like a comic book that gets released alongside a bigger media production, and so much of the movie was just *Wink Wink, Nudge Nudge.

This one decided to go back to closing out the predictable beats from the first two Trilogies along with mass celebrations by everyone. Which I can understand, but still felt underwhelming to me. That said I did enjoy the Kylo and Rey storyline, right up until they kissed. Poe and Finn were well done, and the actors gave good performances.

I do agree with the take that this felt like Abrams was trying to shoehorn his own ideas for what TLJ was supposed to be into this which really made it feel bloated. This felt every bit of its running time (which to be fair, TLJ did as well, for me). Palpatine being back wasn't shocking or interesting to me, and I would have enjoyed seeing the fallout from Rey had Chewie actually died in the Transport or Hux deciding to join our crew of ragtags. But all-in-all, it served its purpose.

[Anduin]

Thanks, @TVSpectator. But I've officially hit burnout. I've got sick of arguing about Star Wars. I just want to enjoy it. However, I will probably continue arguing about Star Wars until I wear my fingers down to stubs. Essentially, I'm the guy in this XKCD strip. And it's frustrating.

[slf]

2 hours ago, SnoGirl said:

That was my pet theory. It would have been more circular, and more interesting.

[...]And if Rey had been a Kenobi, once again we have a Kenobi trying to save a Skywalker from going darkside.

There really did seem to be plenty of parallells between Rey/Obi-wan and Kylo/Anakin. Hell, they could have still done Palpatine!Lives with Rey being a Kenobi (tho I still think having a traditional Big Bad was unnecessary, that Kylo Ren, Rey's own pull to the Dark, and the First Order were enough obstacles to overcome in the finale). It would have made more sense.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

Granted these are all just rumors but I would guess that Dave Filoni might be replacing KK within a few years anyways- and this is more speculation on my part but Filoni seems to be kind of popular with the current fan base and he has the success of The Mandalorian under his belt as well

Feloni is fucking awesome. I loved Rebels and he actually made me care about Anakin in The Clone Wars. Plus the final confrontation between Vardar/Anakin and Ahsoka in Rebels is so heartbreakingly beautiful. He also writes fantastic female characters (Ahsoka, Sabine and Hera).

I don't know if he's a good person to take over for Kennedy, that's a more political/corporate job but, I've been hoping they would give him his own trilogy or let him develop a live action Ahsoka Tano movie.

[absnow54]

I thought the movie was fine, so long as you didn’t think too hard about it. I feel like it will fall apart with additional rewatches, which is a bummer because tying together new story threads is one of my favorite things from the other movies. I thought Williams’ score was beautiful, and the chase scenes were fun. The space battles were pretty lackluster (same with TFA) they need to take some notes from Rogue One.

My two biggest gripes were burying Anakin’s and Leia’s lightsabers on Tatooine, because Anakin hated that place and it meant nothing to Leia. I guess they were buried with Shmi, who was the founder of the bloodline, so that’s kind of nice. It would have made the most sense to bury Luke’s lightsaber there, since it’s when his story began, but JJ doesn’t give a shit about the green saber. Second, if you’re going to take the Skywalker name, you get the Skywalker droid. I get that BB8 is the star of this trilogy, but R2D2 has been so loyal to that family. He deserved to look at that binary sunset as the saga came to a close.

My heart hurts for Chewie. He lost the most this trilogy. I’m glad he’s found a new ragtag gang to protect the galaxy with. 

[Zuleikha]

TFA made me think that if they were going to make Rey descended from someone known then they were going to do Rey Kenobi not Rey Palpatine.

How could Rey be a Kenobi? Jedi are celibate, and Obi-Wan is not a rules breaker like Anakin. 

I think Rey was set up to be either a Solo or Skywalker or a random student who survived Kylo's massacre. And I think any of those possibilities would have been better than her being a Palpatine. But once Johnson made those impossible, I think a Palpatine was the best option. 

Abrams has talked about being rushed, so I get him going the easiest possible path with the Wayfinders as Macguffin. But another thing that would have been cool is if Rey had to intentionally give into the Dark Side in order to find Exogel, so that we had Dark Side Rey as the mid-point twist and then bringing Rey back to a balance as the final part. That would have been the perfect point to give Finn more plot relevance by making his Force sensitivity meaningful, conveniently also addressing the complaints about bloodline's significance.

On a different thought, did anyone else thing the ending with Lando bringing the not-a-Navy-just-people was meant to be a deliberate incorporation of the ending of TLJ? I thought the sparks of hope that Luke Skywalker lit was supposed to be the change between the Battle of Crait's distress call going unanswered and TROS's masses rising up. 

 

[TVSpectator]

1 hour ago, Anduin said:

Thanks, @TVSpectator. But I've officially hit burnout. I've got sick of arguing about Star Wars. I just want to enjoy it. However, I will probably continue arguing about Star Wars until I wear my fingers down to stubs. Essentially, I'm the guy in this XKCD strip. And it's frustrating.

I know the feeling. But personally looking at all three movies it seems that TFA laid some plot seeds that TLJ derail and that TROS tried to course corrected. Given the rumors that Iger himself got involved sounds like they were hoping to please everyone- which seems to not have happened. Personally I would love it if JJ's notes, KK's notes, Lucas's notes (oh yeah he claimed to have left notes for Disney when they bought Lucasfilm),  Disney's and Lucasfilms' notes, and Rain Johnson's notes were revealed to see what the hell actually happened. But looking at this movie and TFA I would say that their wasn't a plan. If their was a plan I would say that it was poorly eastablished in TFA. Although, I would assume that JJ wanted Snoke to be the big bad but RJ killed him off in TLJ (like what the rumors claimed). But their was absolutely NO hint that Rey was a Palpatine in TFA.

 

[VCRTracking]

I've noticed while a lot of fans who hated TLJ were angry and enraged, those with a negative reaction to TROS are more bummed out and depressed.

I do sympathize with disappointed Reylos but I wonder what they thought would happen? If Ben/Kylo had lived he would have gone to trial for war crimes! He wasn't going to just be free and live a life with Rey. Same if Vader hadn't died at the end of ROTJ and was captured. He'd be tried in the Rebel version of the Nuremberg and sentenced to life in prison.

Edited December 23, 2019 by VCRTracking

[absnow54]

7 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I do sympathize with disappointed Reylos but I wonder what they though would happen? If Ben/Kylo had lived he would have gone to trial for war crimes! He wasn't going to just be free and live a life with Rey. Same if Vader hadn't died at the end of ROTJ and was captured. He'd be tried in the Rebel version of the Nuremberg and sentenced to life in prison.

He could put his Solo genes to use and live a life on the run while atoning his sins across the galaxy.

Let’s face it, the Resistance was even less organized than the Rebellion, and their one leader with any understanding of setting up and maintaining a government died. The Second Order is all but imminent. 

[Zuleikha]

The Second Order is all but imminent.

So another problem with Johnson's TLJ  choices is that as far as we saw in TFA, the New Republic was a strong, dominating government. The First Order struck a strong blow with the surprise attack on the Hosnian system, but then Starkiller Base was immediately destroyed along with what was portrayed as a good chunk of First Order troops. This was shown as a strong Resistance victory.

However, in TLJ, all of a sudden the First Order is described as being the dominant force. We are shown nothing to explain how and why. Even if the First Order didn't just suffer a major, unexpected military setback, there's also the sheer scale of the galaxy. How would the First Order have significantly expanded their areas of control in what was supposed to be a few days?

Then in TLJ, once again the First Order suffers what should have been some significant setbacks with the killing of Snoke and destabilization of the mission when Kylo Ren took command. 

So to me, it seems very likely that the New Republic would have the time and space to regroup into a fairly coherent government. I see Hosnian Prime compared to DC, and an attack on DC would be devastating. But there's a chain of succession for the presidency and the odds are that at least one person in it would have been out of DC during the attack. Each state would still have its governors, legislative bodies, and judicial bodies. There would still be a structure to rebuild from. That's even more true in the New Republic, where most of the planets would have members of their government affected by the deaths of Hosnian Prime but the actual planets themselves wouldn't have been.

[TVSpectator]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

I've noticed while a lot of fans who hated TLJ were angry and enraged, those with a negative reaction to TROS are more bummed out and depressed.

 

Well, I wasn't happy with the TLJ but this movie did leave me feeling depressed. I guess it came down to how the Skywalker Saga ended with Ben just given Rey his life force and then dying from it. Like that was a a WTF moment but I feel like the Skywalker family really got the short stick in this new trilogy and having Ben dying (and then killing off the Skywalker linage) is another giant "fuck you" to people who liked the Original Trilogy. 

 

1 hour ago, absnow54 said:

Quote

I do sympathize with disappointed Reylos but I wonder what they though would happen? If Ben/Kylo had lived he would have gone to trial for war crimes! He wasn't going to just be free and live a life with Rey. Same if Vader hadn't died at the end of ROTJ and was captured. He'd be tried in the Rebel version of the Nuremberg and sentenced to life in prison

He could put his Solo genes to use and live a life on the run while atoning his sins across the galaxy.

Let’s face it, the Resistance was even less organized than the Rebellion, and their one leader with any understanding of setting up and maintaining a government died. The Second Order is all but imminent. 

 

From the moment they had Kylo killed Han I knew that his only way to redemption would've been death. (edit: it's kind of how a typical redemption story would go. Vader got the same treatment but he had two children to carry on his legacy. With Ben- he was literally the last line of Skywalker and their is no one to carry that legacy and Rey is a dumb character, in my opinion). I get it but it just left a bad taste in my mouth. That is why I am still mad at JJ for doing that in TFA (along with having Han leaving Leia and Ben for a life of smuggling....). But somehow Palpatine not only secretly fathered a son, but his son was able to lead a low enough profile to live a life where he can be called a "nobody", gets married, and  Sheev's granddaughter literally grew up in obscurity and poverty as some kind of salvage slave on Jakku? But not only that but the entire plot of the Original Trilogy means shit now because nothing good came from it and the OG characters completed nothing (even their personal relationships turned to shit as well).  Instead Palpatine was never defeated- he was somehow able to go into exile- after somehow surviving the explosion of the Second Death Star.  Resurrects the Empire as the First Order, turns Ben to the Darkside, makes Luke go crazy enough for him to try to kill his only nephew (in his sleep), makes Luke hid in exile, etc... Not only that but Palpatine continued to live (almost) 40 years in secrecy and then just announced to the galaxy that he was back spontaneously. Not only that but he had an entire armada of imperial star destroyers (fully staff, btw) hiding under ice on some planet in the Uncharted System? And those ships all had laser cannons which turned out to be mini mobile version of a Death Star/Starkiller Bases? 

 

Let's not go into how the hell that much of wreckage even could survived the explosion over Endor but those things that I have listed above are enough for anyone to go, WTF film? For this film only- the other two films all had their problems but at least the TFA did have some kind of plot seeds sprinkled throughout it but it all just peters out into nothing by this film. 

 

Edited December 24, 2019 by TVSpectator

[absnow54]

21 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

 

 

So another problem with Johnson's TLJ  choices is that as far as we saw in TFA, the New Republic was a strong, dominating government. The First Order struck a strong blow with the surprise attack on the Hosnian system, but then Starkiller Base was immediately destroyed along with what was portrayed as a good chunk of First Order troops. This was shown as a strong Resistance victory.

However, in TLJ, all of a sudden the First Order is described as being the dominant force. We are shown nothing to explain how and why. Even if the First Order didn't just suffer a major, unexpected military setback, there's also the sheer scale of the galaxy. How would the First Order have significantly expanded their areas of control in what was supposed to be a few days?

Then in TLJ, once again the First Order suffers what should have been some significant setbacks with the killing of Snoke and destabilization of the mission when Kylo Ren took command. 

So to me, it seems very likely that the New Republic would have the time and space to regroup into a fairly coherent government. I see Hosnian Prime compared to DC, and an attack on DC would be devastating. But there's a chain of succession for the presidency and the odds are that at least one person in it would have been out of DC during the attack. Each state would still have its governors, legislative bodies, and judicial bodies. There would still be a structure to rebuild from. That's even more true in the New Republic, where most of the planets would have members of their government affected by the deaths of Hosnian Prime but the actual planets themselves wouldn't have been.

This bothers me so much. I think according to supplemental reading material, the entire New Republic fleet was destroyed with Hosnian Prime, but shouldn’t have enraged local governments sent all of their ships and militias to the Resistance cause? The fact that NOBODY shows up in TLJ is ridiculous. 

Edited December 24, 2019 by absnow54

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, absnow54 said:

This bothers me so much. I think according to supplemental reading material, the entire New Republic fleet was destroyed with Hosnian Prime, but shouldn’t have enraged local governments sent all of their ships and militias to the Resistance cause? The fact that NOBODY shows up in TLJ is ridiculous. 

I don't read the supplemental books but, I heard that the fleet around the New Republic Homeworld was destroyed but, that wasn't the entire fleet. Which makea sense, why would anyone keep their entire Navy/Military at home instead of spread out protecting the planets of the New Republic?

I think the big problem is that Johnson assumed New Republic = Resistance which wasn't the case.

And yeah that bigged the crap out of me in TLJ.  TFA ends with First Order suffering a major defeat and running home to Snoke but TLJ starts immediately afterwards and is treated as if the First Orders were in a stronger position than in TFA before losing Star Killer base, tons for military/troops and ships

Edited December 24, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[scrb]

The Ringer Watch podcast really went over it in depth.

But they summarized the movie and the trilogy as for “fandom” not for “thoughtful engagement.”

They also noted the ending won’t matter because Disney will do more Star Wars movies, meaning new heroes and villains will be created, because they’re not chug story but release dates.

[Perfect Xero]

11 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Me too! But I so wanted her to say something like, 'we heard about another stromtrooper who escaped, and it gave us hope that we could do that for ourselves too, so we did!'.  

I think it might have been cool though to have had one or two of Finn's old unit to have followed his example and ended up there too.

But I think it's pretty powerful that they all made that choice on their own without having to follow someone else's lead. That TFO suppressing those stories from spreading among the ranks/units still doesn't stop it from happening.

[katha]

9 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I've noticed while a lot of fans who hated TLJ were angry and enraged, those with a negative reaction to TROS are more bummed out and depressed.

I do sympathize with disappointed Reylos but I wonder what they thought would happen? If Ben/Kylo had lived he would have gone to trial for war crimes! He wasn't going to just be free and live a life with Rey. Same if Vader hadn't died at the end of ROTJ and was captured. He'd be tried in the Rebel version of the Nuremberg and sentenced to life in prison.

The moment Kylo killed Han in TFA, the only possible redemption for him would be death. I mean, I know this is not what fans/shippers want to hear, but in a conventional storytelling set-up, this is just how it goes. And at the end of the day, Star Wars is deeply conventional and follows rather simple hero/villain tropes. Nothing wrong with that, but that's just the reality of it.

Having said that: I...still don't get fandom sometimes, I guess. Because Kylo Ren/Ben Solo? Duuuuude, he got as much of a happy ending as was possible. He's a mass murderer...had he lived, he'd have to face the consequences of that. There'd have been no happily ever after for him. I think Driver's performance was stellar, particularly how his whole phisicality as Ben showed that he'd thrown away the temper tantrums and fear of Kylo. The confidence/swagger and slight Han Solo reminders were awesome.

Like, Ben died in peace, having helped Rey in her fight against Palpatine. And he died reassured of their connection and knowing that she accepted him, he died somewhat reconciled to his parents/their ghosts. That's as good as it was going to get. And Rey knows this. Which is why she is at peace with it, because she knows that this is the absolute best outcome for him. He died with that smile (again, all the kudos to Driver for that performance) on his face and at peace with himself. Then he vanished, so he's somehow connected with the force/his parents now? Rey's worst case scenario was always having to kill him, having him stay with the dark side. So...I don't get the griping with that aspect either? Everything else? Sure. That stuff? Made perfect sense IMO and Kylo's/Ben's arc was one of the strongest aspects of the trilogy IMO (no doubt elevated by Driver, who had to sell just as much nonsense as everybody else).

I mean, yeah, it was an obvious rush job. Like everything in that movie was a rush job, but at least it made sense and was emotionally rewarding. You can't say that for various other elements of the trilogy.

 

[slf]

20 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

 

 

How could Rey be a Kenobi? Jedi are celibate, and Obi-Wan is not a rules breaker like Anakin. 

I think Rey was set up to be either a Solo or Skywalker or a random student who survived Kylo's massacre. 

The Jedi are not a celibate order. AFAIK that is not stated in any of the films. They were never meant to be seen as such, either; George Lucas has weighed in on this before, the Jedi can fuck but not marry. Catching feelings is a no-no. 

As to whether Obi-Wan would ever, that's a matter of opinion. I think he would, under the right circumstances. And in at least one of the shows he did have a love interest who he considered giving up the order to be with.

Edited December 24, 2019 by slf

[Morrigan2575]

Obi-Wan had a Love Interest in The Clone Wars (cartoon) which is part of the Disney canon so Obi-Wan could have has a little romance and a grandchild running around out there.

Obviously they didn't go in that direction but the pieces were all there if they wanted to make Rey a Kenobi while still keeping her a 'nobody'

[BlackberryJam]

I saw it and really enjoyed it. I expected to though. For me, this is Star Wars, not rocket science. I'm in it for the entertainment value and all three films in this trilogy were highly entertaining.

I enjoyed TFA for bringing back the original joy of first watching Star Wars.

I enjoyed TLJ for expanding the universe. The casino in Canto Bight is the first time we ever see the black and white clothing of the Empire and the neutral, earthy tones of the Resistance interacting socially. Every other interaction between those color palettes is adversarial. I loved the idea that the Force is bigger and stronger and not just for the chosen few.

TROS wrapped things up and I truly, truly enjoyed it. The theatre for a 3pm showing on a Monday was decently full, including several little girls dressed as Rey who clapped and Oooohed and Ahhhed through the whole thing. Their enjoyment was contagious.

That being said, I had a few problems with TROS. 

Adam Driver is really an incredible actor and Daisy Ridley struggled in comparison. While Driver's face is so mobile, I began to wonder if Ridley got botox in her forehead because it never, ever moved, even when it should have.

I felt like the movie needed an extra thirty minutes to breathe. We needed at least one scene back at the Rebel base while our trio was off on adventures. Rey wandering off on her own happened far too many times. You'd think she'd learn at some point that wandering off endangers others or at least to tell people where she's going and what she's doing. I wanted someone to slap a leash on her.

Oscar Isaac was looking thick, slow and bloaty. He's always seemed like a lean guy, but there was a definite pudge factor. I'm not body shaming here. SW made it a thing when Carrie Fisher and Mark Hamill had to drop weight to get back on screen. Oscar didn't look swole. He looked like he was carrying a food baby and retaining water. It didn't work with his performance. Especially when he was standing next to Keri Russell in her body stocking.

Speaking of Keri, my headcanon is that she got the captain's medallion in trade from Captain Phasma who SURVIVED as the awesome Gwendoline Christie should have, and struck out on her own. 

John Boyega was lovely and I loved his hair.

I did not like that Rose was sidelined. I needed a hug or something between the two.

I loved the banter between the trio.

I ABSOLUTELY LOVED that other Stormtroopers deserted because of a feeling in the Force. The Force is what gives the entire universe hope and without more of it, the Empire/First Order/Sith/Whatever wins.

Adam Driver stole the show though. He acted circles around everyone, but Domhnall Gleeson was fantastic in his quick return as Hux. What a petulant little bitch he was. My headcanon there is Hux had a massive crush on Kylo and Kylo turned him down.

Carrie. Oh Carrie. When Carrie's daughter, Billie Lourd, was the one escorting the ailing General inside, my heart broke. 

Loved seeing Lando again.

This movie brought me far more joy than irritation. 

 

[Wynterwolf]

9 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

But I think it's pretty powerful that they all made that choice on their own without having to follow someone else's lead. That TFO suppressing those stories from spreading among the ranks/units still doesn't stop it from happening.

Yes, you're totally right, that is a powerful message too... even if you don't see anyone else doing it, still do the right thing.  

[BlackberryJam]

Oh, I forgot to say that I LOVED that Rey's mom was Jodie Comer, crazy assassin Villanelle from Killing Eve. 

Here she is escaping from Palpatine!

I want someone to photo shop those into Star Wars PJs.

[VCRTracking]

I admit I first heard the rumors of the Rey-Palpatine connection months ago and my reaction was "No! C'mon! Really?! You gotta be fucking kidding me! That can't be true! Ugh!" Now it makes the moments where she overpowers Kylo in the interrogation scene and fight scene in TFA make more sense to me. Because if she really was a nobody, she was an insanely gifted nobody.

[Sakura12]

28 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Oh, I forgot to say that I LOVED that Rey's mom was Jodie Comer, crazy assassin Villanelle from Killing Eve. 

Here she is escaping from Palpatine!

I want someone to photo shop those into Star Wars PJs.

That was my thought, Rey can't be a nobody with Villanelle as a mother. 

 

[Danny Franks]

I'll add my voice to the choir of 'I enjoyed it, but it could have been better.' There was lots I liked, some stuff I was iffy on, and some stuff I really didn't care for.

Looming large in my disdain was Kylo Ren, galactic stalker and gaslighter, lately given a cheap redemption arc by the ghost of Han Solo. Great, he felt bad after being responsible for the death of his other parent. That doesn't make up for anything that he did in life. We got a glimpse at the end of who he could have been, had he been stronger and made better choices. But he wasn't, and he didn't.

The kiss with Rey sucked, because it felt like an endorsement of the twisted, sadistic version of 'romance' that their relationship boiled down to - Kylo Ren mentally abusing Rey and her being sure, somehow, that he could be saved. That should have ended at the end of The Last Jedi.

And the Knights of Ren... what a bunch of emo, melodramatic dorks. Turning up and posing in 'cool' ways, but not actually doing anything. They were more funny than threatening.

I felt like they tried to cram too much in, and failed to really develop any of the new characters - a girl to prove Poe is straight, an ex-Storm Trooper to answer questions about why Finn was able to break his conditioning - but they could have done more with those characters, had they just focused on one or the other (for my money, the ex-Storm Trooper company was way more interesting).

There were some CGI bits that hearkened back to the dark days of the prequels - the CGI slug, the horn headed guy who told them about the spy and the cavalry charge (really didn't care for that). But I liked the lived in feel of the Rebel hideout, the grimy, worn out equipment and the weary Rebels. I love that the Corellian Corvette was the de facto flagship of that genuinely ragtag fleet.

Clearly, Disney are going all out on the merch push, this year. First Baby Yoda, then Babu Frik and D-0. They're going to make as much money off those three characters as they do off everyone else combined.

I wasn't sure about Leia having Jedi training - It seemed unnecessary - but as I watched the scene play out, I liked it. Young Luke and Leia together, one more time, and it made sense that Leia would have felt an obligation to learn, and to give Luke someone to teach.

But here's one thing that this movie, and the trilogy as a whole, got 100% right - Rey. She has been every bit the hero that the franchise needed. She's been strong, vulnerable, warm and honourable. She's made mistakes (including her penchant for wandering off, in this movie), and she's had moments of doubt, but she's always come through. And Daisy Ridley has played every moment perfectly. She has such a great physicality, in action scenes, fight scenes and in moments where she has to show comic timing or great emotion.

I didn't care that she was a Palpatine, and anyone scoffing at that really is nitpicking for the sake of it (but it does look like some people had already decided to hate the movie, before they even saw it). Palpatine was a real man, and there's no reason he wouldn't have had a family. Most evil dictators do. It explains why Rey's parents abandoned her, it explains why she has so much Force sensitivity. As explanations go, it was fine.

Palpatine being back? The how of it didn't bother me, because this is a fantasy movie, and Palpatine was always focused on more than just material power. Revived from the dead? Sure. Cloned? Fine (and even though I didn't read any of the novels, even I know he had a cloning kink). Force ghost made real? Okay. I just wish they'd not used that as a way to renege on Kylo Ren's choices in The Last Jedi.

Every ship in the galaxy turning up to fight the Final Order was cheesy, but okay, it got me. I love that "they're not a navy, they're just people" sentiment, and the idea of people power is always potent, in the face of oppression. Still, I can't help but think the Final Order built their Star Destroyers with a massive, glaring weak point - that giant cannon that blew up the entire ship when it was hit a few times.

I liked the triumvirate of Rey, Poe and Finn, and the time they got together. But that early scene that showed Rey and Poe bickering like Han and Leia sadly never went anywhere, and Finn never really did come clean about his apparent Force sensibility.

So, the end of the trilogy. The end of the Skywalker saga? I don't know. If they do anything else with Rey, I'm there. Movies, TV, even the books written by mediocre sci-fi authors. I'm sure Daisy Ridley is going to have a very full calendar, for the foreseeable future, but she's the best thing to happen to Star Wars, in my opinion, since Return of the Jedi.

I loved that last shot, of Rey and BB-8 looking at the binary sunset. That really did feel like an earned moment of peace, with Rey ending her (current) journey where Luke began his. Yes, she earned the name Skywalker, far more than Kylo Ren ever did. And I was delighted that JJ Abrams didn't make Lucas's mistake, and include Kylo Ren's ghost alongside Luke and Leia.

Edited December 24, 2019 by Danny Franks

[Zuleikha]

And in at least one of the shows he did have a love interest who he considered giving up the order to be with.

And had he left and had her canon ending been different, I could buy a Kenobi. But he didn't leave, and he would have if they'd had a child together. While Jedi may not have been required to actually be celibate (which is still blowing my mind!), I can't buy Obi-Wan specifically having flings or one night stands or abandoning a child.
Qui-Gon Jinn maybe. 

I'm not convinced Lucas fully thought things through with saying the Jedi aren't celibate, though. They were a large enough order that there's no way that some of them wouldn't accidentally get pregnant/impregnate or form romantic bonds. I think everything with Anakin/Padme would have read very differently if relationships and kids were an occasional conflict (and also, that there would be a lot more ex-Jedi running around!).

[slf]

2 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

And had he left and had her canon ending been different, I could buy a Kenobi. But he didn't leave, and he would have if they'd had a child together. While Jedi may not have been required to actually be celibate (which is still blowing my mind!), I can't buy Obi-Wan specifically having flings or one night stands or abandoning a child.
Qui-Gon Jinn maybe. 

I'm not convinced Lucas fully thought things through with saying the Jedi aren't celibate, though. They were a large enough order that there's no way that some of them wouldn't accidentally get pregnant/impregnate or form romantic bonds. I think everything with Anakin/Padme would have read very differently if relationships and kids were an occasional conflict (and also, that there would be a lot more ex-Jedi running around!).

Just because celibacy wasn't a rule doesn't mean it wasn't a common practice. People often end up developing feelings for someone they have a sexual relationship with and that's something a Jedi would have to contend with. As is getting pregnant; obviously the Jedi would have to give up their child, and if said child was themself force-sensitive there's no way their parent could be their Master. So I can see most Jedi choosing to abstain from sex altogether, or it being very uncommon except for the highly emotionally controlled/repressed ones.

And it's always a possibility that Obi-Wan could have fathered a child without being aware of it. To me, that makes a lot more sense than Rey somehow being Leia and Han's child or Luke's child without any of them being aware of it (or being aware but pretending otherwise for some reason) and Rey not remembering because her memories were wiped away with the Force. And I just like it better, narrative-wise, than her being a Palpatine and everything having been Palpatine pulling strings behind the scenes.

But to each their own.

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 12/22/2019 at 5:39 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Damn, Abrams killed Greg Grunberg's character!  I didn't know he would do in his buddy like that!  At least Dominic Monaghan is now here!

Was there any real point to Keri Russell's character?  Other than to look cool in a suit and have someone for Poe to "have history" with?

What on earth was the point of Dominic's character?  Or even Greg's?  Keri had more point than those, even though I thought all 3 were just nonsense ways of J.J. forcing his friends into the movie.

On 12/22/2019 at 5:39 AM, thuganomics85 said:

(copy of text box)

 

Edited December 25, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Danny Franks]

31 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

What on earth was the point of Dominic's character?  Or even Greg's?  Keri had more point than those, even though I thought all 3 were just nonsense ways of J.J. forcing his friends into the movie.

There wasn't a point to them. There doesnt need to be a point to every character, or the movie would be even more packed than it was. They were glorified extras - the script needed some named characters with a few lines, and they cast better known faces than they normally would. I imagine there's no shortage of relatively well known actors who would accept a five line part, just to say they were in Star Wars.

Like Richard E. Grant. There's no reason, other than that throwaway 'I served you in the Empire' explanation, why that role couldn't have been filled by Hux, instead of killing him off half an hour in.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I never implied there is a point to every character.  I just thought it was funny that Keri's character was pointed out as pointless whereas I thought Greg's and Dominic's were far moreso.

[Morrigan2575]

56 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

They were glorified extras - the script needed some named characters with a few lines, and they cast better known faces than they normally would. I imagine there's no shortage of relatively well known actors who would accept a five line part, just to say they were in Star Wars.

Grunberg is his buddy, I think he's appeared in every JJ production or something. I'm guessing Dominic is a buddy from Lost days and a Star Wars fan so he gave him a tiny role. We know that Simon Pegg has that role in TFA fpr the same reason JJ buddy/Star Wars fan.

Long way to say you're absolutely right, just a bone to his friends that love Star Wars.

20 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I never implied there is a point to every character.  I just thought it was funny that Keri's character was pointed out as pointless whereas I thought Greg's and Dominic's were far moreso.

Grunberg was in all 3 movies and Dominic was a glorified Cameo. Keri Russell's character was a minor character, part of the plot/story and got promotion stills. She was on the same level as Jannah, the other 2 weren't at that level.  That's why people are saying casting Keri was pointless and not saying that about that cameos

Edited December 25, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[ShadowHunter]

9 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I saw it and really enjoyed it. I expected to though. For me, this is Star Wars, not rocket science. I'm in it for the entertainment value and all three films in this trilogy were highly entertaining.

I enjoyed TFA for bringing back the original joy of first watching Star Wars.

I enjoyed TLJ for expanding the universe. The casino in Canto Bight is the first time we ever see the black and white clothing of the Empire and the neutral, earthy tones of the Resistance interacting socially. Every other interaction between those color palettes is adversarial. I loved the idea that the Force is bigger and stronger and not just for the chosen few.

TROS wrapped things up and I truly, truly enjoyed it. The theatre for a 3pm showing on a Monday was decently full, including several little girls dressed as Rey who clapped and Oooohed and Ahhhed through the whole thing. Their enjoyment was contagious.

That being said, I had a few problems with TROS. 

Adam Driver is really an incredible actor and Daisy Ridley struggled in comparison. While Driver's face is so mobile, I began to wonder if Ridley got botox in her forehead because it never, ever moved, even when it should have.

I felt like the movie needed an extra thirty minutes to breathe. We needed at least one scene back at the Rebel base while our trio was off on adventures. Rey wandering off on her own happened far too many times. You'd think she'd learn at some point that wandering off endangers others or at least to tell people where she's going and what she's doing. I wanted someone to slap a leash on her.

Oscar Isaac was looking thick, slow and bloaty. He's always seemed like a lean guy, but there was a definite pudge factor. I'm not body shaming here. SW made it a thing when Carrie Fisher and Mark Hamill had to drop weight to get back on screen. Oscar didn't look swole. He looked like he was carrying a food baby and retaining water. It didn't work with his performance. Especially when he was standing next to Keri Russell in her body stocking.

Speaking of Keri, my headcanon is that she got the captain's medallion in trade from Captain Phasma who SURVIVED as the awesome Gwendoline Christie should have, and struck out on her own. 

John Boyega was lovely and I loved his hair.

I did not like that Rose was sidelined. I needed a hug or something between the two.

I loved the banter between the trio.

I ABSOLUTELY LOVED that other Stormtroopers deserted because of a feeling in the Force. The Force is what gives the entire universe hope and without more of it, the Empire/First Order/Sith/Whatever wins.

Adam Driver stole the show though. He acted circles around everyone, but Domhnall Gleeson was fantastic in his quick return as Hux. What a petulant little bitch he was. My headcanon there is Hux had a massive crush on Kylo and Kylo turned him down.

Carrie. Oh Carrie. When Carrie's daughter, Billie Lourd, was the one escorting the ailing General inside, my heart broke. 

Loved seeing Lando again.

This movie brought me far more joy than irritation. 

 

Adam Driver in my opinion has always been the best actor in these films. I am not surprised he has been in so many projects lately. I am sure he will continue to be busy. In fact his next project is with Jodie Comer.  Kylo Ren and Rey's mom I can see the fan fiction now lol.

 

[Simon Boccanegra]

Driver and Oscar Isaac are two of the best actors of their generation. They were already well along in establishing their reputations before 2015, as both had had parts for major directors: Baumbach, Chandor, Eastwood, Refn, Spielberg, the Coens (the Coens even put them in the same film). They were great acquisitions for Abrams/Kennedy/et al., and I am sure they will both be hitting new highs for a long time. Their presence may even add to this trilogy's retrospective appeal. 

Edited December 25, 2019 by Simon Boccanegra

[Ravenya003]

On 12/24/2019 at 11:46 AM, VCRTracking said:

I do sympathize with disappointed Reylos but I wonder what they thought would happen? If Ben/Kylo had lived he would have gone to trial for war crimes! He wasn't going to just be free and live a life with Rey. Same if Vader hadn't died at the end of ROTJ and was captured. He'd be tried in the Rebel version of the Nuremberg and sentenced to life in prison.

I am as baffled in 2019 as I was in 2015 that so many people honestly thought Kylo and Rey were going to live happily ever after together. No way in hell was Disney going to give a fairy tale romance to the franchise's first female protagonist and a mass murderer (even going as far as they did with them seems to be what's causing the most controversy in and out of fandom).

Like you said: even if he had survived, there was one of only two options for him: imprisonment or life-long solitary exile. Whatever path they chose for Kylo, Rey was always going to end up exactly where she did: in the arms of Finn and Poe, the men who loved her without violence, manipulation or agenda. 

But that's kinda what struck me about this movie: it was so clearly designed to try and appease as many segments of the fandom as possible.

Do you stan for Kylo Ren? He gets redeemed. Do you hate his guts? He dies. Do you ship Rey/Kylo? Here's a kiss. Do you hate that ship? It's a pretty chaste "thanks and goodbye" kiss, and Rey is over him by the time she joins the party that's literally celebrating his death.

Did you ship Finn with Rey or Poe? There's plenty of ship bait between both to let you imagine he hooks up with your person of choice five minutes after the credits roll. Heck, there's a reading for it being a polyamorous relationship given that three-way hug.

Pretty much every controversial/interesting idea in The Last Jedi is walked back to appease the internet trolls: Rey Nobody is retconned to explain her proficiency in the Force and quiet the misogynists who complained she was a Mary Sue. Kylo Ren's clear and deliberate choice to plant his flag on the Dark Side is dialed back and he gets a THIRD chance to do the right thing. Rose is severely minimized. 

Finn is Force Sensitive, a wildly popular internet theory is made true, even though it has no real part to play in the story itself. 

I honestly feel like JJ trawled the internet message boards in search of what audiences wanted, only to realize that everyone wanted VASTLY different things, and cast the net wide in a bid to please everyone.

So many narrative choices are so obviously an attempt to cater to every dissenting faction of fandom on the internet, that the only sensible thing for people to do is take the piece of the pie designed for them, and go eat it in their respective corners.

[katha]

59 minutes ago, Ravenya003 said:

I am as baffled in 2019 as I was in 2015 that so many people honestly thought Kylo and Rey were going to live happily ever after together. No way in hell was Disney going to give a fairy tale romance to the franchise's first female protagonist and a mass murderer (even going as far as they did with them seems to be what's causing the most controversy in and out of fandom).

Like you said: even if he had survived, there was one of only two options for him: imprisonment or life-long solitary exile. Whatever path they chose for Kylo, Rey was always going to end up exactly where she did: in the arms of Finn and Poe, the men who loved her without violence, manipulation or agenda. 

But that's kinda what struck me about this movie: it was so clearly designed to try and appease as many segments of the fandom as possible.

Do you stan for Kylo Ren? He gets redeemed. Do you hate his guts? He dies. Do you ship Rey/Kylo? Here's a kiss. Do you hate that ship? It's a pretty chaste "thanks and goodbye" kiss, and Rey is over him by the time she joins the party that's literally celebrating his death.

Did you ship Finn with Rey or Poe? There's plenty of ship bait between both to let you imagine he hooks up with your person of choice five minutes after the credits roll. Heck, there's a reading for it being a polyamorous relationship given that three-way hug.

Pretty much every controversial/interesting idea in The Last Jedi is walked back to appease the internet trolls: Rey Nobody is retconned to explain her proficiency in the Force and quiet the misogynists who complained she was a Mary Sue. Kylo Ren's clear and deliberate choice to plant his flag on the Dark Side is dialed back and he gets a THIRD chance to do the right thing. Rose is severely minimized. 

Finn is Force Sensitive, a wildly popular internet theory is made true, even though it has no real part to play in the story itself. 

I honestly feel like JJ trawled the internet message boards in search of what audiences wanted, only to realize that everyone wanted VASTLY different things, and cast the net wide in a bid to please everyone.

So many narrative choices are so obviously an attempt to cater to every dissenting faction of fandom on the internet, that the only sensible thing for people to do is take the piece of the pie designed for them, and go eat it in their respective corners.

Yeah, I think this is the ultimate downfall of TROS as a movie. It doesn't want to make decisions about anything for fear of offending various fan segments/agendas. As a result, no one is happy. I think this pandering and inconsequence makes it the weakest of the three movies by far. It had cool and nice things, but it could have been better if TPTB made clear decisions about anything (I think this goes beyond just Abrams, tbh). OTOH, considering the corporate pressures it probably faced (let's not kid ourselves, this movie is supposed to make as much money as possible, everything else it just superfluous nonsense), perhaps there was not really a way to make it any better.

Or perhaps there might have been a way if there was a strong enough unifying concept laid out from the start. Since there wasn't, Abrams and Johnson...did stuff they wanted in the first two movies. And then the third had to clean up the mess. Idk, a stronger producer, stronger studio etc. might have prevented something like that?

ETA: There's very revealing footage for the last Hobbit movie showing that Peter Jackson basically had no plan anymore and the whole set descended into chaos. It would probably be interesting to have a glimpse at what went on during the shooting of TROS, but I guess Disney has a tighter rein on things like that.

Edited December 25, 2019 by katha

[raven]

Though I've enjoyed them in different stages I think my disappointment with these last three movies is the lack of imagination.    Palpatine has always been a dull villain for me and this movie didn't change that.

As someone who enjoyed TLJ, I thought that movie set up things for potentially interesting directions.   We could have opened with Leia's death and some disarray in our heroic group; we could have had Dark Rey pulled back to the light by a combination of her own strength and her friendships with Finn and Poe; Finn's force sensitivity should have been explored more.

Adam Driver's turn from Ren to Ben was so well done - he is really a very good actor, you could spot the character differences right away - I would have liked to have seen more Ben in flashbacks with Luke at least, if Harrison Ford was not willing to do more than what we got.   I needed something more for his turn back to the light.  What we got was handled okay mostly on the strength of Driver's performance.   I never thought he would get a HEA but I expected something along the lines of Anakin's ending which is what we got.

Instead we got the basic good vs bad that we've had before.  I won't bother on pointing out the many plot holes that others have.

The good stuff - Daisy Ridley is an extremely likeable hero.   If she wasn't so good in this role, these movies would be a huge fail.   I was glad that Finn got more to do here as I like John Boyega and Finn's story in TLJ was the worst part of that movie for me.  Also, what is the point of Finn constantly mentioning something and never finding out in the movie what it is?  That's a weird storytelling choice.

Oscar Isaac also takes a trope character and elevates Poe on performance alone.   The scene where Rey activates her saber and Poe is holding the flashlight - the look on his face got a big laugh in my theater.

The chemistry between the three is excellent.   I wouldn't mind movies with the three of them having adventures.  I am always here for characters I like having some first class banter.  It's one of the reasons I enjoyed both Solo and Rogue One.

Visually the movie is beautiful.    They handled the Leia scenes fine.  I liked the ending with Rey naming herself a Skywalker. 

I have to laugh at characters suddenly becoming Generals.  You're a General! and you!  Everyone gets a General!  LOL.

My co-worker's 10 year old son is a huge fan of Rey.  My theater was packed with kids.   I think having these new heroes is a good thing.  Some of that is nostalgia for me - I saw Star Wars when I was eleven and I wanted to be that hero, so seeing those same feelings in kids today is fun.

 

 

[Ravenya003]

6 hours ago, raven said:

  Also, what is the point of Finn constantly mentioning something and never finding out in the movie what it is?  That's a weird storytelling choice.

It seemed pretty obvious to me that Finn was going to tell Rey he loved her, since it's a pretty well-established trope that any attempt by a character to declare one's love for another will constantly get interrupted. According to a post on Tumblr (so take with a pinch of salt) the leaker who accurately spilled details about the storyline months ago said that the movie originally ended with Rey AND Finn on Tattooine, Finn finally trying to spit out his confession, and Rey interrupting him for the last time, saying: "I know," and taking his hand. There's even a picture of it:

But like I said in my above post, this movie was designed to NOT commit to anything. A scene like the one described above would have been too explicitly in favour of FinnRey, and that would have upset fans of other ships, so it was left ambiguous.

Cast and crew are currently saying that Finn was trying to tell Rey he was Force Sensitive, which is so blatantly untrue and utterly at odds with the way those scenes were staged, timed and performed that I'm just going to avoid any and all interviews from now on. They're still making this stuff up as they go.

[SnoGirl]

Ahsoka lives! Dave Filioni posted a drawing on his Instagram Gandalf talking to Ahsoka saying “Everyone thought I was dead too. Look how that turned out.”

I had read an interview where Abrams said Ahsoka would have a role in the movie. I thought she was going to be the spy-return of Fulcrum. When it was revealed the spy was Hux, I was waiting for Ahsoka to appear somewhere else-For a beat I thought maybe Felicity Russell was playing Ahsoka or Sabine. I was disappointed the only Ahsoka we got after that Abrams tease was her saying “Rey.” 

I actually LOVE this turn of events because who’s to say Jedi can’t reach out to reach other when one is asking to help? Someone give Dave Filioni the keys to the kingdom-or at least that other trilogy that’s been talked about.

[Wynterwolf]

I love force-sensitive Finn!  And that has been my headcanon since Kylo first seemed to sense him in that first stormtrooper battle, but they really dropped the ball on using/showing it.  I was glad that they implied it as strongly as they did, but it was something that could have been used to amazing storytelling effect, but it just really wasn't.

I understand why they went back to Tatooine for the ending, (though I agree with some comments I've seen that it was a weird choice given the planet's relationship, or lack thereof, to the various Skywalkers), but I would have loved to have seen Finn and Poe lounging near a ship in the distance, waiting for Rey to finish her goodbyes to Luke and Leia, and then seeing her walking back towards them... 

12 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

Ahsoka lives! Dave Filioni posted a drawing on his Instagram Gandalf talking to Ahsoka saying “Everyone thought I was dead too. Look how that turned out.”

That would be awesome!!!

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, SnoGirl said:

Ahsoka lives! Dave Filioni posted a drawing on his Instagram Gandalf talking to Ahsoka saying “Everyone thought I was dead too. Look how that turned out.”

Awesome! I was pissed when it seemed like they killed her off-screen.

[Chyromaniac]

After seeing it twice now, I think I have a better idea of how I feel.  In general, it’s fun.  There are plenty of cool moments and strong performances - and overall it’s enjoyable film.  However, I’m still not thrilled with bringing back Palpatine, making Rey his grandchild, or the idea that somehow Luke and Leia knew about that all along.  I also feel the script is too busy shuffling the heroes along on the MacGuffin quest(s), and as a result misses out on potentially interesting character beats (revealing Finn’s secret, providing the Knights of Ren with personalities, giving Rose anything to do, etc...).

One thing that did stand out for me was that I was getting very strong Disneyland vibes throughout the film- there were at least three moments where I basically felt like I was watching a promo reel for Galaxy’s Edge: 1) the Star Destroyer rescue is exactly how I imagine Rise of the Resistance, 2) the lightspeed skipping sequence could easily be worked into Smugglers Run or Star Tours, and 3) I wouldn’t be surprised to see a little area setup for the Pasaana festival dance (assuming they have park rights for the music).

My favorite moment of unintentional comedy was when Palpatine orders General Richard E Grant to “destroy a planet that they care about”- and he picks Kijimi of all places?!? Did he just go with that because it was literally the last place he knew the heroes had been?  And besides Poe, would it really matter to anyone in the resistance if this random planet gets blown up?  I mean, there’s a reason why we care (Babu Frik), but still.  And for a hot second I actually thought that’s what Palpatine was saying- “blow up something that the audience cares about.” But, Star Wars is never that meta....

I also thought it was hilarious that the final space battle was all about shooting Star Destroyers in the dick.

Otherwise, taken on its own I thought Rise of Skywalker felt enough like a Star Wars film- but that it wasn’t a particularly good finale for the sequel trilogy, or the saga as a whole.

[Eve93]

Hey, I just needed one answer.. Did Finn tell Rey what he was going to say at the end? I can't remember for the life of me what they said when the 3 of them hugged.. (I'm assuming he was going to tell her he loves her but I know that he didn't say that) So I thought he said something else in the end

[Anduin]

18 minutes ago, Eve93 said:

Hey, I just needed one answer.. Did Finn tell Rey what he was going to say at the end? I can't remember for the life of me what they said when the 3 of them hugged.. (I'm assuming he was going to tell her he loves her but I know that he didn't say that) So I thought he said something else in the end

He didn't. And apparently, he was going to say that he's Force-sensitive.

[absnow54]

2 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

One thing that did stand out for me was that I was getting very strong Disneyland vibes throughout the film- there were at least three moments where I basically felt like I was watching a promo reel for Galaxy’s Edge: 1) the Star Destroyer rescue is exactly how I imagine Rise of the Resistance, 2) the lightspeed skipping sequence could easily be worked into Smugglers Run or Star Tours, and 3) I wouldn’t be surprised to see a little area setup for the Pasaana festival dance (assuming they have park rights for the music).

And they 100% repaired Kylo Ren’s mask so they’d be able to sell new toys, now with cool red stitching. 

[Jillibean]

7 hours ago, absnow54 said:

And they 100% repaired Kylo Ren’s mask so they’d be able to sell new toys, now with cool red stitching. 

A hundred percent. Also because JJ clearly thought it looked cool. But I think it was Rian Johnson with the right idea here. Putting a helmet on an actor like Driver is a crime. Let the guy act. 

19 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

There's even a picture of it.

I don’t want to crush any shipper dreams, but my immediate thought is that picture is from filming Pasaana scenes. They used Jordan for both desert planets, so the setting would look the same. The Reylos are also convinced another ending was shot with Ben and Rey, interestingly. My initial interpretation of what Finn was going to say was the same as yours, but the force sensitive reveal makes more sense in terms of what Finn’s presented storyline was in this movie, if not the delivery. I do think it was purposely ambiguous, though. 

On 12/25/2019 at 12:48 AM, Simon Boccanegra said:

Driver and Oscar Isaac are two of the best actors of their generation. 

Which makes the fact that this movie isn’t better even more of a disappointment. Oh, what could have been.

On 12/24/2019 at 4:50 PM, Zuleikha said:

And had he left and had her canon ending been different, I could buy a Kenobi. 

I love the ongoing thoughtful discussion about whether Rey as a Kenobi is logistically possible. I also guarantee that if that’s what JJ had wanted to do, he would have done so with no thought as to whether it made sense and drummed up some sort of half thought out explanation later when called on to explain it. I’m remembering more and more that JJ’s thing is big twists and reveals with no actual in world explanations. See: Rimbaldi and smoke monster.

On 12/23/2019 at 3:16 PM, Lugal said:

That's Abrams' MO.

The fact that this whole trilogy was not planned out in advance is classic Abrams.

You’re absolutely right and I don’t know why I keep letting myself forget it with each new project. Fool me...what are we up to, five times? Shame on both me and him, I think. 

On 12/23/2019 at 12:58 PM, Wynterwolf said:

Me too! But I so wanted her to say something like, 'we heard about another stromtrooper who escaped, and it gave us hope that we could do that for ourselves too, so we did!'.  

How cool would it have been to have a hint dropped in movie one or two that Finn wasn’t the only one, followed by the reveal in this one? This is why it’s good to plan trilogies out before they’re made. 

In terms of Ben’s fate, I think it’s pretty clear that he had to die. The perception of that relationship is interesting because people have SUCH different views of it. The people who are into the ship firmly believe that Ben was tortured by the dark side invading his head since birth (which I do think was alluded to by Palps in this movie) and was essentially an abuse victim who deserved a happy ending. (The fact that he’s a mass murderer doesn’t seem to be generally reflected on at all.) I personally think Star Wars has always been about being accountable for your own actions, and Kylo killed or was an accessory to killing literally planets worth of people, so I don’t really see how you get away from that no matter how sad you think his childhood was. I agree that the ending he got, reverting to Ben and getting to kiss the girl who cared about BEN (not Kylo) once was the absolute best one possible for the character. Anyone who believes they could have let him get the girl in the end and live isn’t seeing this very clearly, IMO.

On 12/25/2019 at 4:53 AM, Ravenya003 said:

Do you stan for Kylo Ren? He gets redeemed. Do you hate his guts? He dies. Do you ship Rey/Kylo? Here's a kiss. Do you hate that ship? It's a pretty chaste "thanks and goodbye" kiss, and Rey is over him by the time she joins the party that's literally celebrating his death.

This. There was so much hedging here. It really did seem like JJ was trying to throw a bone to everyone, but I think the reaction has been the opposite. None of the fandom bases got everything they wanted with the result that most people are annoyed or disappointed. Somehow both the shippers AND the anti shippers are unhappy with how things turned out, which is a pretty amazing (anti) achievement.

[benteen]

I very much enjoyed The Rise of Skywalker and have seen it twice now.  It wasn't perfect by any stretch...it felt like two movies were crammed into one (I don't know why they made the movie shorter) and has several other problems.  But it's an enjoyable movie with some great moments and does a lot to wipe the stain away of The Last Jedi away and the damage that Rian Johnson did to the franchise.

The Rey Palpatine reveal was a surprise to me but I liked it.  It was certainly better than the whole "Your parents were nobodies" retcon.  It provides an interesting personal stake.  I laughed at an article that wondered "who the lucky lady was" in regards to Palpatine's babymama.  The Rey Skywalker scene at the end also works for me...with Ben basically giving his life force to her, Rey is a born again Skywalker in both name and spirit.

The Rey/Ben kiss was questionable to say the least but Ben died right afterwards so that works.  There's definitely chemistry there between the two and I enjoyed them fighting together.  The Ben/Han scene was great and Harrison Ford's two best acting scenes in the Star Wars saga were definitely his final two with Adam Driver.

Very good lightsaber duel although the best ones were definitely in the prequels.

Finn was fine though I got annoyed with his constant "REY!!!!" screaming all the time.  Just assume she's fine like she always is.  He did get some good material with Jannah though, with their shared abducted child soldier past.

Poe is definitely more likable here than in The Last Jedi.  One of the worst thing Rian Johnson did was that he made Rey, Finn and Poe all far less interesting characters.  Though the spice runner thing was again just thrown in there.  Poe's backstory in the new EU (which is supposed to be canon) is that he was a New Republic pilot who joined the Resistance.  When the hell did he have time to be a drug smuggler?  If he was doing that at the end of his New Republic service because he was so dejected with his service, that would be more interesting.

The movie did very well with its three new characters, Zorii, Jannah and Pryde.  I only wish we'd had more time to flesh them out.

I thought the most emotional scene in the movie was Chewbacca's emotional breakdown when hearing about Leia's death.  That scene absolutely killed it and the medal scene was emotional too.  I was very happy with the Chewbacca scenes and the Threepio subplot.

I honesty don't think Abrams pushed Rose to the sidelines to please the pathetic bashers.  I think he did that because Rose just wasn't an interesting character.  I like Kelly Marie Tran and the trashing she went through was disgusting but if I had a list of 20 characters I wanted to see more of, Rose wouldn't be on it and wouldn't be close to being on it.

I loved the Luke/Leia flashback training scene.  I still think we would have gotten a deaged Luke, Han and Leia scene if Carrie were still alive.  That was failing of both JJ and Disney.

Loved the Luke scene and him finally lifting the X-wing out of the water.

Great final action sequence, space battle, etc.

Loved getting the various voice cameos from the classic trilogy, the prequels and even the pleasant surprise of The Clone Wars and Rebels.  I do think this trilogy really missed a major opportunity by not having the ghost of Anakin appear.  Especially when it was revealed that Palpatine was the "Vader" voice inside Kylo's head.

Loved the other various cameos, like Wicket.

Great to see Lando return and Billy Dee looked like he was having a blast.

There are plenty of things Disney did wrong here.  The first was not having one clear vision for the prequels and that is inexplicable.  The classic trilogy had three different directors but one creative force, GL.  For good or for bad, the prequel trilogy also had this.  I wouldn't have hired JJ because the man's movie career is completely lacking in originality.  But if you're going to hire him, make sure he sets a clear vision which future directors like Rian Johnson can't change so they can subvert expectations for the sake of subverting expectations.  I still can't believe control freak Disney allowed him to do that.

I found critics who say The Rise of Skywalker is the worst movie in the series to be ridiculous.  This is a franchise that includes The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones after all.  I'm also tired of critics cheerleading for Rian Johnson and The Last Jedi.

Also, Disney has learned that you can't use the Avengers model on Star Wars but literally every fan of the trilogy could have told you that.  One of the reasons these movies are so special is because they don't come around every year.  But Disney is arrogant and I truly believe they are still legitimately baffled by the idea that Star Wars ever became the success story it did without them.  

The future of Star Wars is television.  But I very much enjoyed this movie and I never thought I'd see a sequel trilogy.  

 

Edited December 26, 2019 by benteen

[caracas1914]

The film.did.not.breathe.

What did work for me was the giant serpent scene, where everyone including Poe is readY to blast the big baddie snake.

That Rey saw the creature was in pain and healed; it just made sense that she would have recognized that and had empathy for it. 

[cpcathy]

I enjoyed it very much. No, it did not breathe, for awhile I thought the pace was too breakneck and there was too much going on. But the stuff I enjoyed outweighed the stuff that was questionable. I WANT a coneface droid, "No thank you."

For me, this series is the chemistry between Rey, Finn and Po, and definitely the chemistry between Rey and Ben/Kylo. Adam Driver can do no wrong in my book. Not even walking out of an interview. Whoever upthread said that he and Daisy should play a couple was spot on. I'd like to see them play a couple in a Woody Allen-ISH (NOT Woody Allen!) film. They are very good together and he was fantastic in all of his scenes. And yes, I shipped them and didn't mind the kiss. So there!

[Zuleikha]

The people who are into the ship firmly believe that Ben was tortured by the dark side invading his head since birth (which I do think was alluded to by Palps in this movie) and was essentially an abuse victim who deserved a happy ending.

This is why I disagree so strongly with Johnson's choices in TLJ about Kylo/Snoke/Luke. Kylo's story would be more coherent if we understood exactly what happened with Snoke and why Kylo went to the Dark Side. Instead, we got no new information and a silly bit of faux-ambiguity that made no logical sense.

If Kylo really has been dealing with Palpatine being a shadowy voice in his head, I agree that he was an abuse victim. I don't think he deserved a happy ending per se because of how much blood was on his hands, but I do see the character as an Anakin-esque tragedy.

But that is not how I think he was portrayed in TFA, and I thought the TFA choice was more interesting. 

[Ravenya003]

9 hours ago, Jillibean said:

This. There was so much hedging here. It really did seem like JJ was trying to throw a bone to everyone, but I think the reaction has been the opposite. None of the fandom bases got everything they wanted with the result that most people are annoyed or disappointed. Somehow both the shippers AND the anti shippers are unhappy with how things turned out, which is a pretty amazing (anti) achievement.

That antis and reylos are united in their hatred of this movie is actually kinda sweet. It's a Christmas miracle!

4 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

This is why I disagree so strongly with Johnson's choices in TLJ about Kylo/Snoke/Luke. Kylo's story would be more coherent if we understood exactly what happened with Snoke and why Kylo went to the Dark Side. Instead, we got no new information and a silly bit of faux-ambiguity that made no logical sense.

To this day I have no idea what motivated Kylo/Ben or what he was trying to achieve at any given point. And no, I'm not going to track down a dozen comic books and tie-in novels to find out.

It would have taken balls of steel for Disney to keep Kylo on the Dark Side, but after the choices he made in the first two movies, a part of me feels it would have been the right creative decision - except they didn't have to kill him off, just find a way to remove his Force powers and imprison him. There he would have been visited by Leia, and whatever "redemption" he could have achieved could have taken place over the course of several years, and been mitigated with justice for all the people he killed and maimed. 

People are constantly saying that Vader got redeemed, so therefore Kylo deserved it too, but I don't personally find Vader's redemption any more deserving or satisfying than Kylo's - I buy it mostly because I grew up with it (and so internalized it long before I had the chance to start thinking critically about the implications of it) and because it's more about Luke than Vader. (Also what works in 1983 doesn't necessarily work in 2019).

I can understand why Luke was invested in wanting to save his father, but there's very little reason to understand why Rey was even remotely interested in helping a complete stranger who kidnapped her, assaulted her, tortured her, murdered his father in front of her, and beat her only friend into a coma. I know the existence of Reylos undermines what I'm about to say, but... women AREN'T attracted to men who do these things. Honest! Watching her scramble after him in TLJ took me completely out of the film, though it was ultimately done in service of Rian Johnson's GOTCHA moment when she realizes he had no intention of ever turning back to the Light.

Which was then walked back by JJ in this film. Oy, where was the master plan??

There were mitigating factors in TRoS when it came to Kylo's redemption - that Rey nearly falls to the Dark Side in her hatred of him, that his decision to turn is more about himself than her - but there's still an icky quality of the old "if you're nice and loving enough, a man will change for you." All that said, I'm going with message of this tweet:

Quote

My initial interpretation of what Finn was going to say was the same as yours, but the force sensitive reveal makes more sense in terms of what Finn’s presented storyline was in this movie, if not the delivery. I do think it was purposely ambiguous, though. 

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but if a film decides to be deliberately ambiguous in the attempt to please everyone, then it becomes an open invitation for viewers to take what they want from it (let's face it, everyone's got their shipping goggles!)

In this case, I honestly think JJ told the actors to go with their instincts regarding their characters, which explains a lot of what appeared on screen, in a script that kept all options open. (We know from interviews that Oscar Isaac supported Stormpilot, that John Boyega was more into Finnrey, and that Daisy Ridley was a little hesitant about Reylo, all of which meshes perfectly with how the dynamics played out here). 

For better or worse, it really was designed to be a free-for-all, and given the drama that's going on in the wider fandom, I really wish viewers would stop worrying about what's "canon" or "official" and just take what they want from it all.

Three more things:

1) It strikes me as funny that of the trilogy of trilogies, the most popular installments in each arc are completely different: for the prequels it was the third movie, for the originals it was the second, and for these sequels it was the first. 

2) I was deeply disappointed that they never did anything more with Finn and Kylo. They were perfect foils (much more so than Kylo/Rey) considering one grew up with a loving family and left them for the Dark Side, and the other was raised by the Dark Side and yet had the moral certitude to recognize it was wrong and leave. Their little moments of interaction across the course of TFA were some of my favourite moments in that film.

In fact, Finn is part of the reason I could never really get invested in the idea of Kylo's redemption. Finn had a tragic backstory Kylo could only dream of, and yet never used it as an excuse to hurt innocent people.

3) Someone did the math, and apparently Kelly Marie Tran had only one minute and sixteen seconds of screentime. That's appalling. 

At the end of the day, I wanted three things from this film: for Rey to be the Skywalker of the title, for Kylo to pay for his crimes through death or imprisonment, and for the movie not to shut the door on the possibility of FinnRey as a potential couple. I was not expecting to get all three, and judging from the wider reactions across the internet, I was lucky to get off so lightly.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Ravenya003
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