S05.E18: Godspeed

[Trini]

Quote

After discovering that Nora is working with Thawne, Barry and Iris disagree about how to handle their daughter in the wake of this shocking news. Team Flash isn't sure they can trust Nora, so they go through her journal to find out exactly how she came to work alongside their greatest nemesis.

Danielle Panabaker directed the episode written by Judalina Neira & Kelly Wheeler.

Airdate: 4/16/2019

[mxc90]

FYI for people living in the NYC area watching on WPIX: this episode will not be shown at its normal time due to the NY Yankees' game.

My DVR states it will air on 04/20/19 at 8:00 pm or you can watch it on demand the next day 04/17/19.

Edited April 14, 2019 by mxc90

[Trini]

Another family photo to add to the album!

Edited April 17, 2019 by Trini

[cambridgeguy]

Nora was able to beat an evil speedster in just a few days.  Does this mean she's already better at it than Barry? 

Speaking of Barry - while he probably shouldn't have been so blase about Nora sticking around in the present for so long this season he can't be stupid enough to believe Iris will be OK with his apparently unilateral decision to send her to the future.  She pulled rank and sprung her from her cell, so she's going to be against a one way trip. 

[shantown]

If Nora can beat someone named the god of speed on Day 1 of being a speedster, I don't understand how any villain has EVER beaten Barry. For real?!?!

Edited April 17, 2019 by shantown
I’m bad with names

[woodstock]

What was that? Seriously what did I just watch???

All I kept thinking was ‘I need to be folding laundry’ during the episode.

[Writing Wrongs]

That was the first time in a while that I've been riveted by a Flash episode. Good job.

[tennisgurl]

Barry isn’t mad Nora. He’s just...disappointed. Classic dad move. 

[BeautifulFlower]

I actually liked this episode.

So Thawne is on death row. In some of the shots where Nora can't see him, it's clear as day he is manipulating her. 

WE FINALLY GOT TO SEE FUTURE IRIS!!!!!!!!!!! Black don't crack baby

As I already knew, Nora ran off without even trying to finish hear what Iris had to say. Maybe future Iris would have told her the truth about Barry being the Flash. It looked like she never.

Who is everyone? Did future Iris just mean Nora's family who knew about Barry being The Flash. We still don't know what Nora's relationship with other Team Flash is like. However, as I saw someone say on twitter, she doesn't call them uncle or auntie. So she is most likely not close with them or they're not in her life. I'm going with the latter. Considering Nora said future Iris freaks out at the mention of meta, I assume she broke off all contact with team flash.

I'm actually curious as to how Thawne did get arrested. Who brought him down? They made it seem like it's a mystery.

So Wally didn't return to CC to protect it after Barry left? Come on now.

Who created The Flash museum? I really want to know that.

I was kinda hoping Nora brought she technically did stop working with Thawne after finding out he killed her grandmother. She could've reminded Barry on why she asked if he thought Thawne could be redeemed.

I was with Nora when future Iris called. Just because you're her mom, doesn't mean you have the right to know information about an open case.

[bettername2come]

I always love Barry teary-eyed and yelling through the glass at Thawne. My heart broke for him when he said “One wasn’t enough?” God, he’s so damaged. He has every right to his trust issues and I don’t think he’s wrong to send Nora back but damn he needs to talk to Iris about this. 

I liked Nora’s friend Leah. I’m going crazy trying to figure out what I know her from. So, Nora never knew her dad was the Flash. I’ve been under the impression this whole time that she’d known. So why was she so obsessed with The Flash Museum?

1 minute ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I was with Nora when future Iris called. Just because you're her mom, doesn't mean you have the right to know information about an open case.

I laughed out loud when Nora said “you married a CSI, how do you not know that?” Cause Barry had no filter even before Iris was in the know.

[quarks]

So, er, where's Wally/Kid Flash in this future? Still in Asia? Back with Team Legends?

[SimoneS]

4 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

So why was she so obsessed with The Flash Museum?

Because Iris told her that her father loved the Flash.

[tennisgurl]

First of all, future Iris still looks amazing. Those grey streaks look great on her! So Nora never knew that her father was the Flash? So why was she so obsessed with the Flash museum? Just a kid/young adult with a love for super heroes? So did she just know Team Flash as friends of the family? It sounds like she knew them at least.

I think that Barry will regret sending Nora back into the future so quickly, but I dont blame him for being so upset. He wasnt even upset that she learned running stuff from him, or that she met with him, but still going back to him after what happened to his mother, her grandmother? That just killed him. Grant really nails those almost tears, especially when he went back to see Thawne again. And that video he left her, ouch!

I liked Nora's future friend, even though I knew she was toast as soon as Nora was saying how she was the only one she could trust. Although, Nora still didnt see the parallel of what her buddy Thawne did to Cisco, one of her dads best friends? Yeah it got erased in this timeline, but still. 

So who finally caught Thawne in the future?

I am not a huge Nora fan, and wanted to see more of the rest of the cast, but I did like the episode and getting more context as to why Nora would trust Thawne, an actual supervillain.

Edited April 17, 2019 by tennisgurl

[SimoneS]

They did the one thing that I dreaded that they would do; they made Iris come off as the bad guy/bad mother to justify Nora turning to Thawne. I HATE this! Nora turning to Thawne was indefensible, IMO, stop trying to put it on Iris! At least, they had Barry banish Nora to the future so all usual the online fandom hate isn't being targeted at Iris. Small mercies, I suppose.

I, on the other hand, enjoyed the hell out of Barry telling Nora the harsh truth about her lies, taking her back to the future, and telling her to stay there. It was only topped by his brief confrontation with Thawne. Best scenes of the episode. 

I find it impossible to believe that Nora was able to stop Godspeed after one lesson from Thawne. I stopped caring about Nora around the fourth or fifth episode and her back story hasn't changed that. If anything it reinforces that she is an idiot. Going back to stop Cicada was her idea? Right. Thawne is playing her like the fool that she is.

ETA:  My money is on Grace or someone whose name I will only mention on the spoiler thread as Thawne's other visitor. Helping him set up his scheme to escape.

Edited April 17, 2019 by SimoneS

[RedVitC]

Still processing a bit, but overall I liked the episode. A few thoughts as they come:

-I like that we finally got to see more of the future, and future Iris, but there wasn't enough time to really flesh it out imo. The story was there, I liked the setting, but I can't help but think how they really could have delved into the story if they'd just slowly started giving us future scenes after the hiatus culminating in this episode.

I feel like if we could have seen Iris make that decision instead of constantly being told about it it would help balance the narrative more. If we could have seen that partnership Nora start with Thawne develop over a few missions it would make it more evident why she trusts him so much. and just stuff like her wearing her suit on for the first time (Iris' jacket!). It was an interesting story and I did enjoy it, but it could have used so much more room to breathe. (I did miss a few scenes so perhaps we did see her with her suit for the first time?)

- Lots of fun callbacks! Having said that, not every aspect of her backstory has to parallel Barry

-I was a bit weary going into the episode about that first scene with Barry and iris arguing from the inside the episode featurette and while I still don't really like it, it wasn't as bad as I thought it might be. I do wish we could have seen some more togetherness from Barry and Iris. I get that they were both hurting, especially Barry, but that's when in the past they've drawn together most.

I don't mean necessarily change their stance, i actually kind of liked that Iris went into mama bear mode, but I wanted to see them deal with it together. The whole gamut. Yes, bring forward their respective points, but also like just cry together or something. Iris knows firsthand, maybe more than anyone what losing his mother did to Barry. And it affected her life too. Of course she understands what that revelation would do to him. So I'd have like to see that acknowledgement and then move on to the but she's still our daughter stuff

Ideally (and this is not because I don't like team flash, I do! I've come to really enjoy the team family dynamic, but this particular issue is directly related to Barry and Iris' little family and something that affected both their lives growing up) I would have liked to see it just being Barry and Iris reading the diary together. Then we could have flashbacks to them talking, crying and yes, even arguing about it and it would have felt more complete to me. The team could then join them and Barry could then have given the diary to them and with some camera trick make clear that the rest had been filled in.

Though I guess then him bringing Nora to the future wouldn't have made sense. 

-Barry's goodbye video to Nora! Cries. That was so good. That was supposedly during crisis, right? Barry thought he might die? (Of course my Iris brain immediately kicked in, in the 'if  you think you're going to die you don't leave a message for Iris also?' sense, but I guess he probably said goodbye to Iris in person.

About bringing Nora to the future. I understand his hurt, and I think the idea of Nora going back to the future isn't necessarily wrong, but apart from not talking to Iris (which, Barry we've been over this!) it felt so sad to see him say goodbye to Nora so coldly knowing he'd never see her again while we had just seen a video of him telling her he'd always love her. That version of him was so sweet and warm so it felt extra sad (great acting job by Grant, though)

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

They did the one thing that I dreaded that they would do; they made Iris come off as the bad guy/bad mother to justify Nora turning to Thawne. I HATE this! Nora turning to Thawne was indefensible, IMO, stop trying to put it on Iris! At least, they had Barry banish Nora to the future so all usual the online fandom hate isn't being targeted at Iris. Small mercies, I suppose.

I don't think she comes off as the bad guy. I completely understand someone who lost her husband wouldn't want the same to happen to her only child. She did come off as very overprotective which was already putting a strain on their relationship and Nora finding out about the dampener was the last straw. Her going to Thawne also both grief about Lea and the absence of a father figure in her more than anything.  Haters are always going to find any excuse though.

I would question Iris not aging except for a few grey hairs if Angela Bassett didn't exist.

Edited April 17, 2019 by VCRTracking

[ottoDbusdriver]

5 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I would question Iris not aging except for a few grey hairs if Angela Bassett didn't exist.

And it wasn't like 4-5 years had gone by -- it was nearly 30 years.

[SimoneS]

11 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I don't think she comes off as the bad guy.  She did come off as very overprotective which was already putting a strain on their relationship and Nora finding out about the dampener was the last straw. Her going to Thawne also both grief about Lea and the absence of a father figure in her more than anything.  Haters are always going to find any excuse though.

We have to agree to disagree on this one. I think that the show has deliberately worked from the beginning to make Iris seem like a bad mother who deceived Nora, thereby laying the groundwork to justify Nora's anger and sick relationship with Thawne. I think that this is far more damaging to Iris as a character than the lack of WestAllen romance that a lot of people complain about. The show will move on from this story with Nora, but it will always hang over Iris' head if this version of Nora survives.

11 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I would question Iris not aging except for a few grey hairs if Angela Bassett didn't exist.

Nice one. I was glad that they didn't of overboard aging Iris. However, I thought both JPK and Candice's make up in the future scenes were not well done.

Edited April 17, 2019 by SimoneS

[adora721]

A very decent episode. Glad to see V-9 brought back into play.  I noticed the building that had the stabilizing agent for V-9 was in the Tracy Brand Building; glad to know Tracy is alive and thriving.

Still don't like Barry raising his voice to Iris; that's just disrespectful. Glad Iris gets to shout back at Barry next week.  Barry often forgets that his pain isn't the only one that matters. Barry's lament about not having someone around he can't trust is hypocritical considering who is still on the team. 

Well acted story, but not many lines from the team, so why were they even there? I was hoping they'd excuse themselves, but they stood around watching the very intimate West-Allen family heartache as if it were dinner theater. Good friends would have had the decency to leave and learn the details later.

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

We are having to agree to disagree on this one. I think that the show has deliberately worked from the beginning to make Iris seem like a bad mother who deceived Nora, thereby laying the groundwork to justify Nora's anger and sick relationship with Thawne. I think that this is far more damaging to Iris as a character than the lack of WestAllen romance that a lot of people complain about. The show will move on from this story with Nora, but it will always hang over Iris' head if this version of Nora survives.

We've seen how Nora's view of Iris was skewed. Iris was actually loving and kind but Nora's memories were clouded by resentment. Now that she got to know her in this time they've reconciled and Nora understands why her mom did what she did. Now Iris is the reasonable parent while Barry is blinded by anger and his hatred of Thawne.

Edited April 17, 2019 by VCRTracking

[SimoneS]

7 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Well acted story, but not many lines from the team, so why were they even there? 

I was going to mention this. My issue is not that the Team Flash was there for the WestAllen family drama, they are always in each other's business, but rather that those scenes showed yet again that there are way too many people on Team Flash. Rather than three relatives/friends, there is a ring of unnecessary spectators. Joe, Cisco, and Caitlin all have first hand experience with Thawne's manipulation so they have something to contribute in the debate about Nora's behavior, but there was no reason for Cecile, Ralph, and Sherloque to be there. This cast needs a serious cull.

[adora721]

24 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

We've seen how Nora's view of Iris was skewed. Iris was actually loving and kind but Nora's memories were clouded by resentment. Now that she got to know her in this time they've reconciled and Nora understands why her mom did what shed did. Now Iris is the reasonable parent while Barry is blinded by anger and his hatred of Thawne.

I think the writers are trying to play both sides: blame Iris and "redeem" Iris. 

What doesn't hold water about blaming Iris is that Nora is at least 25, not a 10 year old experiencing tragedy from such a tender age. While Nora didn't have a father, she had a father figure in Papa Joe, so having daddy issues seems out of place IMO. 

She's also a PhD and trained CSI who illegally entered the Tracy Brand building with her coworker without police backup at night. This showed immaturity, lack of foresight, and irresponsibility. Nora is partially to blame for Lia's death. 

All this cannot be Iris' fault. There's something fundamentally wacko about Nora West-Allen. And her continuing to see Thawne after learning about her grandma's death shows this very well. None of that is on Iris either. 

If the writers had just made Nora much younger like a child prodigy who graduated early and worked as a CSI, that would help make her immaturity make more sense. 

[Trini]

So really, the entire cast was only needed for the first scene in the Cortex. (Or not even then, if they hadn't had everyone in the reveal scene in the previous episode.) Why do they feel the need to keep everyone around all the time? And poor Carlos/Cisco didn't even get a line. *sigh*

I do have nitpicks, but I thought this was a good, compelling episode; and I'm glad we finally got some answers about Nora.

So they really used Godspeed as just a villain-of-the-week. Kind of a waste. (Can't imagine how much they spent on that costume - which looked pretty good.)

I get that Nora was mad at Iris (and maybe "everyone"), but I still don't think it makes sense that Nora (apparently) never tried to talk to Iris again about her powers and her father, the Flash. She also could have gone to Joe, or Cisco, or whoever from Team Flash was still around.

I did love that we got to see Future Iris! And the loft - it's been so long. And that Central City Citizen has grown to have it's own building!

Liked the little callbacks to Season 1 and the few easter eggs I caught on first watch.

So Thawne is set to be executed? I would think that the death penalty would be gone in the future.

Grant almost-crying always gets me! That goodbye message for Nora - 😭

I mean, Nora should have been sent back a while ago, but the circumstances here were really sad. (Max angst!) And you don't have to see the promo to know that decision is going to fly with Iris.

BD Wong was in the guest star credits; I'm guessing he did the voice for Godspeed?

[blugirlami21]

That was kind of all over the place for me. I simply don't find Nora that interesting or compelling tbh and this backstory didn't really help with that. I was disappointed that they stuck with Iris being the one to give Nora the chip. I think it would have been far more interesting for Barry to suggest it in light of what happened in this episode and I'm over Nora being nasty to Iris for trying to protect her. 

I hate how naive and kind of stupid she is. Did she think that Thawne hadn't done something major to wind up where he was? That he couldn't just be manipulating her the whole time? Why didn't she go back to Iris for answers? Iris would know better than anyone about the Flash.

I think they hit the nail on the head for the true reason for Barry's reaction to Nora. I said this episodes ago. I completely understand Nora going back to Thawne in the beginning, she didn't know any better but going back after finding out what he did to her grandmother was and is unconscionable to me.

However Barry taking Nora back to the future without talking to Iris was wild. Like ooc, who wrote that wild. He would never hurt Iris like that. I don't care how upset he is.

Has the show explained why the time wraiths are not after Nora? Did I miss an explanation for that?

Edited April 17, 2019 by blugirlami21

[Trini]

if anyone is interested in behind-the-scenes stuff, Danielle P. and one of writers for this episode tweeted some info tonight:

[Trini]

28 minutes ago, blugirlami21 said:

However Barry taking Nora back to the future without talking to Iris was wild. Like ooc, who wrote that wild. He would never hurt Iris like that. I don't care how upset he is.

It is out of character, and they're clearly doing it for DRAMA, but I'm still here for the fallout, though.

 

Quote

Has the show explained why the time wraiths are not after Nora? Did I miss an explanation for that?

No explanation. But maybe Thawne taught her his tricks.

[ruby24]

Unless you care about Nora as a person (I do not) this show has nothing to offer its audience anymore.

It's not about Barry. I once liked the idea of bringing in a kid from the future. I thought there were so many things they could do with that.

They have executed this whole thing hideously. I never wanted the show to now be ABOUT the kid from the future. We don't need her carrying entire episodes as if she's the star (she is this season- it's unbelievable). I liked the idea of the future kid as an extension of WestAllen only, and the idea of the Flash family/legacy, not as the new star of the show! 

This is absurd. The show is crap. Every episode is terrible. They could have had the Tornado Twins, they could have tied it into comics canon. They've done NOTHING. And Nora is not interesting.

[thuganomics85]

So, I see between this and Arrow last night, this was the week for the leads to have some more vacation time, apparently, due to their lack of screen time.  At least this episode fared better since I prefer Nora; flaws and all; to Black Siren (certainly helped that I really do think Jessica Parker Kennedy is doing a great job, all things considering.)

For some reason, I was under the impression that Iris only kept Nora's speed powers hidden, but she actually kept Barry being The Flash from her, too?  Oof!  I still think Nora was way too harsh on her mom, but Future Iris really didn't take the best approach here.  Of course, that still doesn't change the fact that Nora willingly aligned herself with a known criminal, so she still doesn't really have a leg to stand on with me.

If the last episode's ending was Barry basically sending Nora to her room, this one was apparently Barry flat-out kicking Nora out of the house and disowning her.  Ouch!  I understand his anger, but he really doesn't see how this is going to blow up in his face, since Iris clearly wanted to try and give Nora a second chance, and he just did that without even consulting her.  Poor form, Barry!  And I'm sure this is also somehow going to be all a part of Eobard's grand, evil plan, and Barry is just unwillingly helping him.  Sigh.

I got excited seeing B.D. Wong's name in the credits, but slightly bummed that he was only just the voice for Godspeed.

I was kind of hoping for more cameos in 2049.  Like, what's Singh up to?  Is he still the Captain?  Did he get promoted?  Demoted?!

I guess Danielle Panabaker did a good job directing-wise, since there wasn't anything that made me feel like I was watching an inexperienced director.

[steelyis]

3 hours ago, adora721 said:

If the writers had just made Nora much younger like a child prodigy who graduated early and worked as a CSI, that would help make her immaturity make more sense. 

Instead they make her an immature fuck-up.

2 hours ago, Trini said:

So Thawne is set to be executed? I would think that the death penalty would be gone in the future.

I'm still trying to figure out why they're allowed to torture him on what seems like a daily basis.

48 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Unless you care about Nora as a person (I do not) this show has nothing to offer its audience anymore. 

Preach.

I'm at the point where the sound of her voice grates my nerves.

35 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

I guess Danielle Panabaker did a good job directing-wise, since there wasn't anything that made me feel like I was watching an inexperienced director.

She did great!

I think she could have given the actors in the smaller roles more life, but her direction of the mains was on point.

I have to say Kathryn Gallagher as Lia was the only thing that made the future parts bearable. I was sorry to see her go.

[cambridgeguy]

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I was kind of hoping for more cameos in 2049.  Like, what's Singh up to?  Is he still the Captain?  Did he get promoted?  Demoted?!

I think they mentioned in a previous episode that Singh ended up being the mayor at some point. 

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

If the last episode's ending was Barry basically sending Nora to her room, this one was apparently Barry flat-out kicking Nora out of the house and disowning her.  Ouch!  I understand his anger, but he really doesn't see how this is going to blow up in his face, since Iris clearly wanted to try and give Nora a second chance, and he just did that without even consulting her.  Poor form, Barry!  And I'm sure this is also somehow going to be all a part of Eobard's grand, evil plan, and Barry is just unwillingly helping him.  Sigh.

This isn't going to last.  Barry's only had a few hours to process all of this so he's still running on emotion.  Once he calms down he's not going to be OK with the idea of never seeing his daughter again.

1 hour ago, steelyis said:

I'm still trying to figure out why they're allowed to torture him on what seems like a daily basis.

The question is what took them so long.  The warden (?) said that Thawne had been in prison for at least 15 years.  If you're going to execute him then why keep him locked up for so long?  Does he have a good lawyer fighting against the death sentence?  Or has everyone gotten their fill of torturing him by now?

While it's sad that Lia was murdered by Godspeed opening that drum of dioxygen difluoride would have killed her anyway, so who knows which way would have been more painful.

Edited April 17, 2019 by cambridgeguy

[ottoDbusdriver]

I'm still convinced that Thawne will get his pizza for free when that countdown timer hits zero.  :)

[Lantern7]

On 4/14/2019 at 7:38 AM, mxc90 said:

FYI for people living in the NYC area watching on WPIX: this episode will not be shown at its normal time due to the NY Yankees' game.

My DVR states it will air on 04/20/19 at 8:00 pm or you can watch it on demand the next day 04/17/19.

. . . and that’s why I’m running late to work now. I saw the episode was “On Demand” (unlike Legends and Arrow early yesterday morning), and I had to watch because tonight is too stacked for me. I wound up checking the Yankees and Mets’ schedules, and I think we’re good through season’s end.

Basically, Nora is a dope, and Barry is using Man!Pain and Dad!Pain soaps in the shower. Barry probably made the wrong call . . . but fuck it, we got a few more episodes. Gotta increase the drama.

Anybody else figure that Nora’s timeline is basically what got “fixed” by Barry a few times? We got Stagg Industries, and that guy got killed in the second episode. The warden looked more like Wolfe from the comics that the character we got last year who wound out getting killed. The big thing is Thrawne being there. Did he stop off in 2049 before coming four decades earlier? I think Barry got credited for putting him away, but then you have to think of Eddie’s sacrifice, Thrawne’s antics on Legends, and the Earth-X business. I should probably do what I do while watching Legends . . . just sit back and nod silently when stuff happens.

[SimoneS]

Overall, I thought this was one of the strongest episodes of this season which quite frankly has been too often abysmal. If nothing else, it has moved the story along.

9 hours ago, adora721 said:

Still don't like Barry raising his voice to Iris; that's just disrespectful. Glad Iris gets to shout back at Barry next week.  Barry often forgets that his pain isn't the only one that matters. Barry's lament about not having someone around he can't trust is hypocritical considering who is still on the team. 

I agree. The bit in the promo didn't seem likely yelling, but Barry did start yelling at Iris and that was not good. I know it is supposed to show how upset Barry was, but still even when they have fought, he and Iris have always been able to communicate in a respectful way. Since Nora (and the show) loves to blame Iris for her bad behavior and lack of judgement, I will blame Nora for Barry's towards her mother. On the other hand, Barry banishing her to the future was Nora's well earned punishment for being a dumbass.

5 hours ago, ruby24 said:

It's not about Barry. I once liked the idea of bringing in a kid from the future. I thought there were so many things they could do with that.

They have executed this whole thing hideously. I never wanted the show to now be ABOUT the kid from the future. We don't need her carrying entire episodes as if she's the star (she is this season- it's unbelievable). I liked the idea of the future kid as an extension of WestAllen only, and the idea of the Flash family/legacy, not as the new star of the show! 

I have to agree. I don't understand why they decided to make Nora this major character and give her so much screen time. Helbing said that we would continue following Nora's journey in one of the interviews. I don't understand why he thinks the audience would be interested in a character that will be gone soon. After all, she cannot stay in the past. I can only conclude that Helbing must be bored. Good thing he is leaving.

Edited April 17, 2019 by SimoneS

[RandomWatcher]

Flash-dickery

[Jediknight]

9 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I would question Iris not aging except for a few grey hairs if Angela Bassett didn't exist.

And Gina Torres, Jennifer Garner, and Flash guest star Kimberly Williams-Paisley.  Some people age only like a year or 2 in a decade.  Hell, Gina's ex-husband is Laurence Fishburne and except for more weight and grey, that man still looks the same as he did when he was Furious.

Nora's running is still looking like it would be more at him in the Adam West Batman show.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Jediknight

[Whatever88]

5 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Hell, Gina's husband was Laurence Fishburne 

They are no longer together. They separated in 2017. 😥

Edited April 17, 2019 by Whatever88

[Lady Calypso]

I do question how they aged Iris because it looked like they got the wig from Future Dinah on Arrow and slightly altered the colour in post. For me, I felt like they could have put a little bit of effort in aging her. It wouldn't have had to be a lot, but just more than a wig. 

The episode wasn't actually bad, per say. I'm just tired of Nora. It took 18 episodes to get some answers about her and I feel like this flashforward/future episode should have been earlier. I get why they had it now, but I'm sick and tired of Nora, at this point. 

Oh man, this show is going to have Barry look like the bad guy, just like they've made Iris look like the bad mom in the future. No, show, I do support Barry's anger at Nora. Ok, I don't support him shipping her off to the future without a goodbye, but I support everything else he's done. They've known Nora for months, at this point. Barry's right in that Nora continued to lie to them for months after she knew about Eobard Thawne. I will always support Barry's hatred over his nemesis. 

Hi Lia! Bye Lia! You were kind of cool, in a Cisco-esque way! 

I will say that I finally got good flashbacks to season 1 Harrison Thawne with him training Nora. I can excuse how fast Nora caught on because of Thawne's practice with how he trained Barry, but I also can't excuse Nora suddenly being able to catch on within a day while Barry took months. I guess it IS easier when Thawne doesn't have to pretend to not be a speedster, but still. 

Honestly, Nora's presence has gotten me irritated with how quick Iris is to defend the daughter that was lying to them. Barry's anger makes sense; sure, it's not fun to watch his reaction and he may be wrong in his choices, but I honestly can't be too mad since we know the extensive history and why he's upset. It's definitely extreme, though. I don't mind Iris being the voice of reason, but the unfortunate part is that HER reaction is biased as well! She's only having Nora's back because she feels guilty about how Future Iris treated her. 

I'm just waiting for the finale when I hope Nora will go away and we can get back to other characters.

[Lantern7]

One more thing while I'm thinking:

Sherloque: I had a case in front of me, I solved it. I non know what else you'd expect of me.

Iris; Cicada! We brought you in to stop Cicada! God, you are a dick!!

Sherloque: Oh, non, non, non. You -- how you say? -- mispronounce that word. Eet is spelled D-I-C-Q-U-E. Dicque. Common mistake!

Iris: (to Barry) Murder him. Just vibrate his guts out!!

Barry: But that face . . . !

Honestly, Sherloque is the second biggest asshole Tom Cavanaugh has played, and that includes somewhat surly Harry, hipster dipshit HR, and whatever other variations of Wells he's had to deal with. I mean, Eobard killed Barry's mom, but Sherloque keeps way too many secrets.

[quarks]

9 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Nice one. I was glad that they didn't of overboard aging Iris. However, I thought both JPK and Candice's make up in the future scenes were not well done.

It wasn't, but I was so relieved to be spared the horror show that has been the aging makeup this season over on Arrow that I'm going to let it pass.

Current Iris looked great as always, though, so we have that consolation. 

8 hours ago, SimoneS said:

My issue is not that the Team Flash was there for the WestAllen family drama, they are always in each other's business, but rather that those scenes showed yet again that there are way too many people on Team Flash. [....] but there was no reason for Cecile, Ralph, and Sherloque to be there. This cast needs a serious cull.

Agreed, though with this particular episode, my sense was that a) they were trying to cut down on Caitlin's lines to allow DP to focus on directing, b) for whatever reason, they are cutting back on Jesse Martin's screentime/lines - Ralph and Cecile both got lines that in previous seasons would have gone to Joe.  It's very possible that Martin requested a lighter workload for the rest of the season, given his earlier injury.

8 hours ago, adora721 said:

She's also a PhD and trained CSI who illegally entered the Tracy Brand building with her coworker without police backup at night. This showed immaturity, lack of foresight, and irresponsibility. Nora is partially to blame for Lia's death. 

All this cannot be Iris' fault. There's something fundamentally wacko about Nora West-Allen. And her continuing to see Thawne after learning about her grandma's death shows this very well. None of that is on Iris either. 

If the writers had just made Nora much younger like a child prodigy who graduated early and worked as a CSI, that would help make her immaturity make more sense. 

I really, really wish they had gone the child prodigy route. Because there's a fundamental disconnect with what we are seeing on screen - a character who frequently acts like a 12 year old, played by an actress clearly in her mid-20s. And it's a specific Nora problem - yeah, other people in the Arrowverse have their immature moments (hi, Oliver Queen!) but nothing to this extent. Quite a few of the kid characters have displayed more maturity.

And I'm just seeing nothing in the background here to justify any of this. Sure, Iris was overprotective - but little Nora was still able to go to museums and school and even earn a PhD. And she's working in a police department and investigating major crimes, which immediately should have matured her. Meanwhile, over on Arrow, Mia grew up completely isolated, with only her overprotective mother and one assassin, apparently, and yet doesn't act like a 12 year old. I mean, there's multiple, multiple other problems with that storyline and I think in general Flash is doing a better job presenting its future than Arrow is (low bar) but at least the character is acting like her visible age.

Add me to those finding Sherloque the least likeable of the various HRs. I'm even liking Reverse-Flash more.

[Jenniferbug]

I really wish they would have handled Nora's whole story better. There was a lot of potential and somehow this season is not working. Is she done for the season?

Of course, it was confirmed this episode that she'll be back for Crisis. Leah mentioned no speedsters being seen since then, and specifically named Flash, Kid Flash, Jay Garrick, and whoever the purple one was (who we know to be Nora). I'm wondering where the heck Wally is in the future. Also why Star City in 2040 is such a hell hole but Central City in 2049 looks pretty fantastic was a little jarring. Seems like what's going on with Arrow and what was mentioned on Legends as Zari's backstory just never affects Central City? It's weird. 

[SimoneS]

Sherloque is an ass, but I understand why he didn't tell them sooner. I have said it before Barry and Iris had to have known that something was off with Nora's story, yet they ignored it because they were happy to have in their lives. How does a novice speedster who can barely control her powers time travel so easily? It took Thawne, Jay, and time for Barry to figure out how to time travel deliberately. If Sherloque had told them about his suspicions, they would have dismissed them immediately. They just met him and he didn't have any proof. Look at Iris' reaction when she realized that Sherloque was investigating Nora.

I hope Sherloque goes back to his earth at the end of this season also. He is one Wells I won't miss. The only one I do miss is Harry. 

28 minutes ago, quarks said:

I really, really wish they had gone the child prodigy route. Because there's a fundamental disconnect with what we are seeing on screen - a character who frequently acts like a 12 year old, played by an actress clearly in her mid-20s. And it's a specific Nora problem - yeah, other people in the Arrowverse have their immature moments (hi, Oliver Queen!) but nothing to this extent. Quite a few of the kid characters have displayed more maturity.

Nora's age is dictated by the timeline of Barry's disappearance. She has got to be around 25 years old. All this could have avoided if they wrote Nora as a grown woman with daddy issues rather than a petulant teenager always throwing a tantrum. I mean, an adult would have predicted Barry's reaction to her betrayal and been prepared to face whatever consequences. How else did she think he was going to react?

10 hours ago, adora721 said:

All this cannot be Iris' fault. There's something fundamentally wacko about Nora West-Allen. And her continuing to see Thawne after learning about her grandma's death shows this very well. None of that is on Iris either. 

I concur. Nora knew Thawne committed serious crimes which is why he was locked up, that he was her father's greatest enemy and that Barry was fighting him when he disappeared. She finds out that Thawne killed her grandmother and continues to work with him! As Barry pointed out, she didn't have to continue to keep working with Thawne, she chose to do so. Nora has a screw loose. She is a nutjob. 

Edited April 17, 2019 by SimoneS

[bluemm]

47 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I'm sick and tired of Nora, at this point. 

I was actually pulling for Godspeed for a while, until he killed Lia.

[adora721]

7 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

If the last episode's ending was Barry basically sending Nora to her room, this one was apparently Barry flat-out kicking Nora out of the house and disowning her.  Ouch!  I understand his anger, but he really doesn't see how this is going to blow up in his face, since Iris clearly wanted to try and give Nora a second chance, and he just did that without even consulting her.  Poor form, Barry!  And I'm sure this is also somehow going to be all a part of Eobard's grand, evil plan, and Barry is just unwillingly helping him.  Sigh.

Yep. Barry putting his pain ahead of everybody else's is regression from S2. He's currently working with the woman who took Iris to be murdered, but can't see past Nora working with Thawne. Um...no. boo. 

7 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I guess Danielle Panabaker did a good job directing-wise, since there wasn't anything that made me feel like I was watching an inexperienced director.

DP was set up to not fail: 

• Given an episode with Godspeed in it.
• No B or C plots to manage.
• Minimal dialogue from the series regulars.
• Only one main person to manage.

9 hours ago, Trini said:

And poor Carlos/Cisco didn't even get a line. *sigh*

He did have a line that mentioned how maniuplative Thawne was and that he must have taught Nora how to lie.

[Trini]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

... I have to agree. I don't understand why they decided to make Nora this major character and give her so much screen time. Helbing said that we would continue following Nora's journey in one of the interviews. I don't understand why he thinks the audience would be interested in a character that will be gone soon. After all, she cannot stay in the past. I can only conclude that Helbing must be bored. Good thing he is leaving. 

I still like Nora, though I have some problems with how they've written her. And I think them bringing in Barry & Iris' child as a major character was a good idea, but as usual with this show, the problems are in the execution.
 

22 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Nora's age is dictated by the timeline of Barry's disappearance. She has got to be around 25 years old. All this could have avoided if they wrote Nora as a grown woman with daddy issues rather than a petulant teenager always throwing a tantrum. I mean, an adult would have predicted Barry's reaction to her betrayal and been prepared to face whatever consequences. How else did she think he was going to react?

Even if they had to have her born at a certain time, the age at which she decided to time travel, etc., was up to them. And they chose to make her mid-twenties but act a decade younger.

[Trini]

3 minutes ago, adora721 said:

He did have a line that mentioned how maniuplative Thawne was and that he must have taught Nora how to lie.

Okay, thanks!

It was still silly that the whole team was in this episode, when they weren't needed at all. Only Nora, Barry, Iris, and Sherloque for one scene.

[adora721]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

I really, really wish they had gone the child prodigy route. Because there's a fundamental disconnect with what we are seeing on screen - a character who frequently acts like a 12 year old, played by an actress clearly in her mid-20s. And it's a specific Nora problem - yeah, other people in the Arrowverse have their immature moments (hi, Oliver Queen!) but nothing to this extent. Quite a few of the kid characters have displayed more maturity.

And I'm just seeing nothing in the background here to justify any of this. Sure, Iris was overprotective - but little Nora was still able to go to museums and school and even earn a PhD. And she's working in a police department and investigating major crimes, which immediately should have matured her.

I'm still hoping we'll have future Iris explain that being born a speedster caused baby Nora to start aging rapidly. And that the only way to stop her from dying prematurely was to dampen her speed. However, the unfortunate side effect was that her emotional growth was stunted, which would explain her tantrums, irrational emotional responses, and emotional volatility. I'd also like future Iris to explain that a transfusion or some other kind of biological donation from Barry would have allowed Nora to mature, physically and emotionally, like a normal person, but Barry was gone by the time Iris found out baby Nora had a genetic defect.  This would explain everything and be a call back to the comics regarding Impulse.

ETA: Of course, they would have tried to use Uncle Wally as a donor for baby Nora, but he wasn't a match.

Edited April 17, 2019 by adora721

[SimoneS]

19 minutes ago, adora721 said:

He did have a line that mentioned how maniuplative Thawne was and that he must have taught Nora how to lie.

And it was a good line. I thought it was going to set off a conversation where Joe, Cisco, and Caitlin reminded Barry that Thawne is a psychopath and how persuasive he can be, that he had likely manipulated Nora and is continuing to do so. I thought that they were going to interrogate Nora to figure out exactly what Thawne is really up to and that is exactly what they should have done before Barry took her back. They know that Thawne is dangerous and doesn't do anything unless it helps him accomplish his goal which means that stopping Cicada must help him escape.

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

DP was set up to not fail: 

• Given an episode with Godspeed in it.
• No B or C plots to manage.
• Minimal dialogue from the series regulars.
• Only one main person to manage.

It's still a daunting job directing an episode weekly of show for the first time that has lots of setups on a two week schedule involving a lot of effects and technical. If there had been plots involving more regular cast members people would say these were actors who already knew their roles and who had worked with her so of course their scenes would be easy. This however was a new actress to the show and involved exploring a non-character along with introducing other new characters that had to be established quickly for you to care about them. I also shudder to think what the reaction would be if we got more than one Caitlin scene! Of course they're not going to give her a very difficult episode like "Cause and XS" for her first time, but even the average episode of the show wouldn't be a walk in the park.  If the episode was terribly made I'd see Danielle's name a LOT more on this thread than I've seen so far.

I don't mind Danielle not getting props because honestly there are very well directed episodes where we don't even talk about the director. Or the writers(unless to complain about the plot or dialogue). I do want to point out how far we've come because I remember reading what Linda Grey had to go through just to direct one episode of Dallas in the 80s. From the AV Club:
 

Quote

AVC: You were brave then to take on directing episodes on that show, knowing all the hijinks that you were going to have to corral by going behind the camera. How did that come about?

LG: I wrote a very long piece about it in my book because I felt that, in the end, that it would help women directors. And it has. I was very truthful in my book. And what happened was, at the end of season eight I went to my producers—it was the time to negotiate for the next two years—and I said, “I would like to direct.” I had been studying with a French woman director, whom I adored. And I said, look, I don’t want to go in there and say, “I want to direct and and you’re going to let me direct, blah blah blah.” I didn’t want to be that person. I wanted to go in with a solid bag of my solid work, my homework, and I did it. I said to my director I was studying with, “Tell me when you feel that I’m ready.” So after a long time, she said, “Okay. You’re ready.”

So I went in at the end of season eight and I said, “I’m really tired of Sue Ellen drinking and having affairs. And the world is changing and women are changing and I really would like to direct.” And I said, “I don’t want money, I’m not asking for money, I’m just asking to direct one in 52 episodes. The next 52.” And they said no.

AVC: Wow.

LG: And they said, “Is that your final negotiation?” You know, it’s a lot more involved, but the bottom line is, I said, “That’s it. That’s what I want. I’m not asking for more money, blah blah blah.” So they said no. And so I said, “Well, okay.” And so basically I was fired at the end of season eight.

So I told Larry, “I’m not coming back.” And he said, “What do you mean you’re not coming back?” So he went in, and he said, “If she goes, I go.” So that’s another Larry Hagman prankster, right? Coming from a good place, but still, Larry Hagman would never have left that show. Even if everybody left. Anyway, it sounded good, it made him feel good, he kind of puffed up, and in my head I can envision him riding in in a white Stetson on a white horse, saying, “I’ll save the day.” And it didn’t matter to me. I didn’t care. I said, “If I’m fired I’m fired. If they take me back, great.”

So they hired me for one. One episode. And so I stepped up, did it, and I felt that it would be great for future young women directors.

AVC: It looks like you did a few more after that?

LG: Yeah! Well, because they liked what I did. It was great for women, because I did it, and that was in the ’80s. I speak to young women directors now, and it’s still a male industry. So they’re inching toward it, but I thought it would be better by now.

Edited April 17, 2019 by VCRTracking

[adora721]

37 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

It's still a daunting job directing an episode weekly of show for the first time that has lots of setups on a two week schedule involving a lot of effects and technical. If there had been plots involving more regular cast members people would say these were actors who already knew their roles and who had worked with her so of course their scenes would be easy. This however was a new actress to the show and involved exploring a non-character along with introducing other new characters that had to be established quickly for you to care about them. I also shudder to think what the reaction would be if we got more than one Caitlin scene! Of course they're not going to give her a very difficult episode like "Cause and XS" for her first time, but even the average episode of the show wouldn't be a walk in the park.  If the episode was terribly made I'd see Danielle's name a LOT more on this thread than I've seen so far.

I think I gave her enough credit by saying she didn't fail, which is how it was set up for a first time director.  I'm sure TPTB would have done the same for anyone else in the cast directing for the first time, which is only logical. I don't comment on Tom C's directing efforts ever. 

But if you're expecting me to give kudos to DP beyond this, it's like asking me to praise her if she'd coached the Warriors against the Mavericks or the New England Pats against the Bills for the first time. It's less about DP than it is about the team around her and the challenges she faced, which were minimized to allow her to not fail. Now, when she starts directing multi-plot, multi-arc, multi-character episodes with excellence, I might give her more praise.

ETA: How about this: She's a better first-time director than she is a veteran actress.

Edited April 17, 2019 by adora721

[SimoneS]

Another thing: I thought that Joe and Cisco specifically would have started to wonder if there was a connection between Thawne and Grace/Cicada after learning that Nora was working with him. They are two of the most suspicious and curious members of the team and neither have voiced the following questions: How did Grace find out about that time sphere built for Thawne was kept in Star Labs' secure storage? How did she get it to work? How did she know to go to Star Labs to rescue Orlin at that exact time? These are a lot of coincidences.

Edited April 17, 2019 by SimoneS