S08.E01: Winterfell

[DarkRaichu]

8 hours ago, terrymct said:

I had a thought.  Two things were mentioned this episode.  Sansa asked if they have enough food and supplies for the newly arriving troops.   Dany mentioned that the dragons don't like the cold and aren't eating as they should.

Remember the idea of Chekov's gun?  If you place an element in a scene, you should use it.

Think of what happened when various armies tried to invade Russia.  The soldiers from warmer countries tried to fight but were handicapped by the weather.  The locals suffered with the weather but were able to withstand and do what needed to be done to defend.   

I'm wondering if the dragons and new troops won't be as much use as everyone hopes or needs.   The dragons could be sluggish and not willing to perform as needed.   The Unsullied and other southern troops could be under prepared or not as hardened to the weather.  

It might still come down to the Northerners and the Wildlings to win this thing.

Yep. I have no idea how the Unsullied are going to fight effectively in the COLD wearing their sleeveless vests

[LadyChaos]

To all of you who are complaining about Jon falling into Ramsey trap, that Sansa warned him about.  RE: Trying to save his brother before Ramsey put an arrow in him....

I want you to answer honestly......if you were warned that a man likes to toy with people, and you see him in front of you with your little 'baby' brother (since Rickon was like 3 the last time Jon saw him), and the man says if he makes it to you before he gets an arrow in him, he can live..........would you have stood there and let the man kill your brother?

If you would have let him die without even trying to save him......so glad we're not related ....thanks.

Edited April 18, 2019 by LadyChaos

[Calamity Jane]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

Most of those people (the nobles) died when she blew up the Great Sept.  It is fitting that the emptiness in her life is the direct result of her actions.

True, but she still seemed to have some court people last season when Euron was there. It was striking to see the empty room. 

[DarkRaichu]

33 minutes ago, Calamity Jane said:

True, but she still seemed to have some court people last season when Euron was there. It was striking to see the empty room. 

IIRC whoever leftover were related to either Tyrell or Tarly.  Cersei had a hand in the destruction of both houses

[Constantinople]

Sometimes a man has to make hard choices, choices that might look wrong to others but you know are right in the long run - Sam to Olly in Season 5

What's good for the goose is good for the gander Sam

[hypnotoad]

Quote

One problem is that Jon showed the wight to cersei, but he didn't show it to his northerners. A lot of them still don't quite believe it - and they're in for a rude awakening.

Agreed. As a viewer (and book reader), I knew the white walkers and wights were the bad guys. The things to be feared and all of that. But I don't think I appreciated the enormity of the threat until 'Hardhome.' That episode scared the crap out of me and then ... then I knew.

Most of these people that Jon is talking to are not truly understanding what is coming. Even showing someone one wight doesn't really do the threat justice.

This episode was certainly a lot of 'putting pieces where they need to be' and reunions. And I was okay with that because it was needed. Now let's get this going!

[Nanrad]

When doing a side by side comparison, arya’s features are clearly more mature. Her baby face is gone, but her features haven’t drastically changed. I’m also not sure with her wearing masculine clothes has to do anything about how gendry (May) view her romantically. There connection has primarily been centered around their friendship and how they understand one another. 

[GrailKing]

5 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

To all of you who are complaining about Jon falling into Ramsey trap, that Sansa warned him about.  RE: Trying to save his brother before Ramsey put an arrow in him....

I want you to answer honestly......if you were warned that a man likes to toy with people, and you see him in front of you with your little 'baby' brother (since Rickon was like 3 the last time Jon saw him), and the man says if he makes it to you before he gets an arrow in him, he can live..........would you have stood there and let the man kill your brother?

If you would have let him die without even trying to save him......so glad we're not related ....thanks.

It was a Koboyashi Maru for Jon, Davos and Tormond knew it was a mistake, Jon loves his family.

Just think if Sansa was there and she told him to stay put. What a shit storm that be.

Rickon did have a slightly better chance if Jon did stay back, something like .0002 %

but yeah it was a no win situation.

[GrailKing]

6 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Yep. I have no idea how the Unsullied are going to fight effectively in the COLD wearing their sleeveless vests

If this is to be believed, sickness and cold have to be apart of the attrition to Danny's army, not just TAOD .

Pox may most likely take KL.

Bronn gets his castle and dies from it. Poor Bronn.

[GrailKing]

6 hours ago, taurusrose said:

I don't like Sansa. I don't have a problem with her asking the question.  I have a problem with her consistently pissy attitude and the way she asked it.  It's really not called for and if I were Jon I would have called Sansa on her attitude ages ago. 

Well we're on the outside looking in, so it's easy to say this.

[Lady S.]

3 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Sometimes a man has to make hard choices, choices that might look wrong to others but you know are right in the long run - Sam to Olly in Season 5

What's good for the goose is good for the gander Sam

He also told Jon Robb's murder didn't matter and to suck it up and ask the Boltons to aid the Watch.

Speaking of Olly, it's funny that he existed just so one of the mutineers could be sympathetic and Dickon begged to die just so one of Dany's casualties would be sympathetic, yet the reaction to their executions is so different. (And it's not about the manner of execution with people denying the Tarlys should have been killed at all and that they did nothing wrong.)

1 hour ago, Nanrad said:

When doing a side by side comparison, arya’s features are clearly more mature. Her baby face is gone, but her features haven’t drastically changed. I’m also not sure with her wearing masculine clothes has to do anything about how gendry (May) view her romantically.

I'm pretty sure Maisie had boobage in her final season with Gendry, hidden under that ugly baggy costume. She's been over 18 for a while now and is only 1 year younger than Sophie, with Arya only two years younger than Sansa. As quite a petite person who was offered kids' menus into my 20s, I'm kind of offended by the double standard that because Sophie is a giantess Sansa can be shipped with every imaginable adult man while Arya/Maisie is a perpetual child.  And the comment about her not dressing like a "she", yikes. (I guess that goes for Brienne too then?) It's not like Gendry has always been an adult and knew her since was wittle bitty. He was 16 at most when they met to her 12 or almost 12, and there are quotes from Joe and Maisie indicating she was meant to have a crush on him back then, so this is a natural progression now she's old enough for him to return her interest.

I'm disappointed about the missed opportunities. We didn't get to see anyone learning of and reacting to Littlefinger's death, and because of all of this other baggage with Sam and Jon, neither of them will tell Dany about her great-uncle Aemon.

[Friendly kitty]

10 hours ago, Leroux said:

5 seconds less of the joyride could have given us at least 30 second of Ghost. 

I am outraged about the fact that Ghost was not there, Jon hasn't asked about him or seemed to care, they used to be what Daenerys and her dragons are, connected by some kind of strange link. 

Yes! I also hurt that the Ghost was not shown. This is the most touching moment to be - the meeting of John with the wolf. But, apparently, all the money went to the dragons ... However, I hope it will appear in the following episodes. Must!

6 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Yep. I have no idea how the Unsullied are going to fight effectively in the COLD wearing their sleeveless vests

The only way out is to sew clothes for them from animal skins. And I think that they will do it later, when half of the army of Deineris will die of cold even before the main battle begins ...

[Nanrad]

48 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

I'm pretty sure Maisie had boobage in her final season with Gendry, hidden under that ugly baggy costume. She's been over 18 for a while now and is only 1 year younger than Sophie, with Arya only two years younger than Sansa. As quite a petite person who was offered kids' menus into my 20s, I'm kind of offended by the double standard that because Sophie is a giantess Sansa can be shipped with every imaginable adult man while Arya/Maisie is a perpetual child.  And the comment about her not dressing like a "she", yikes. (I guess that goes for Brienne too then?) It's not like Gendry has always been an adult and knew her since was wittle bitty. He was 16 at most when they met to her 12 or almost 12, and there are quotes from Joe and Maisie indicating she was meant to have a crush on him back then, so this is a natural progression now she's old enough for him to return her interest.

I'm disappointed about the missed opportunities. We didn't get to see anyone learning of and reacting to Littlefinger's death, and because of all of this other baggage with Sam and Jon, neither of them will tell Dany about her great-uncle Aemon.

Right. Sansa is almost shipped with every imaginable person and my issue with that has nothing to do with whatever my feelings are towards her, but the appalling double standards. Arya is small/petite, but she is clearly no longer a child physically and emotionally. Arya quite clearly had a crush on gendry. She is ogling him while he is making something at the forge shirtless.

Arya isn’t disinterested in romance, her life was pretty dark for a while, so it makes sense that that wasn’t a priority. But, I don’t see why her looks, clothes, when they met, her character arc, etc means that she can’t like someone let alone gendry.

Not only did gendry figure out that she was a girl, he kept her secret and didn’t treat her any differently. They were clearly closer than her and hot pie. Arya was incredibly upset when he decided to go on another path without her and said, “I can be your family.” 

Arya was too young to understand her feelings and act on them...maybe. And gendry may have felt something for her too, but again, the age thing. She’s now an adult and the circumstances are different.

its quite odd for people to be against Arya dating “much” older (only five years) gendry or her being in any relationship at all. 

Edited April 18, 2019 by Nanrad

[GodsBeloved]

5 hours ago, GrailKing said:

It was a Koboyashi Maru for Jon, Davos and Tormond knew it was a mistake, Jon loves his family.

Just think if Sansa was there and she told him to stay put. What a shit storm that be.

Rickon did have a slightly better chance if Jon did stay back, something like .0002 %

but yeah it was a no win situation.

Every time I watch that episode I lament that Rickon did not zig and zag. I don't care how good a shot Ramsey was, trying to hit a moving target, one that was not only going forward but moving side to side would have been more difficult and I think had Rickon done that he would have made it to Jon.

[AnnaL]

11 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

To all of you who are complaining about Jon falling into Ramsey trap, that Sansa warned him about.  RE: Trying to save his brother before Ramsey put an arrow in him....

I want you to answer honestly......if you were warned that a man likes to toy with people, and you see him in front of you with your little 'baby' brother (since Rickon was like 3 the last time Jon saw him), and the man says if he makes it to you before he gets an arrow in him, he can live..........would you have stood there and let the man kill your brother?

If you would have let him die without even trying to save him......so glad we're not related ....thanks.

From the human point of view I get were Jon was coming from, that Rickon is his brother and he was trying to do his best to save him. I cried during that scene being him so determined to try to save Rickon. I wanted so badly for Rickon to make it. 

However, Jon was not just a brother, he was the commander of his troops, his troops depended on his and his actions, which he was warned several times by Davos, Tormund and everybody besides Sansa, their plan depended heavily on the strategy that they would wait for Ramsey to attack them, it was the only way to have a fighting chance being that the numbers were not on their favor. 

Jon's action were not the ones of a commander, he basically lead his troops to the slaughter because he allowed Ramsey to trick him and fell for his trap. I do not blame him, he is only human. 

GRRM nails it time and time again that ruling should not be a privilege, it is an honor that comes but very heavy responsibilities, only rulers who understand this concept are great rulers. Wasn't it master Aemon who told Jon that love is the death of duty? This scene was the perfect explanation of that, Jon allowed his heart to direct his actions instead of stick to the strategic plan they have devised and not only he lost his brother but also a lot of his men.  

Rulers do not have the luxury to rule with their heart, they have to do what duty demands and that is their burden. Great power comes with even greater responsibilities. 

[GodsBeloved]

11 minutes ago, AnnaL said:

From the human point of view I get were Jon was coming from, that Rickon is his brother and he was trying to do his best to save him. I cried during that scene being him so determined to try to save Rickon. I wanted so badly for Rickon to make it. 

However, Jon was not just a brother, he was the commander of his troops, his troops depended on his and his actions, which he was warned several times by Davos, Tormund and everybody besides Sansa, their plan depended heavily on the strategy that they would wait for Ramsey to attack them, it was the only way to have a fighting chance being that the numbers were not on their favor. 

This reminds me of Robb and Cat in season 2. She wanted him to trade Jamie for Sansa and Arya and Robb responded that he couldn't do that. Cat I believe said something else and Robb told her it wasn't that simple and she knew it.

Robb was a brother and commander too and I believe he loved his sisters as much as Jon loved Rickon. Definitely a hard place to be in and Jon had it worse imo because Rickon was right there in his face which I think made it harder for him to control his emotions.

[Clanstarling]

6 hours ago, Nanrad said:

Right. Sansa is almost shipped with every imaginable person and my issue with that has nothing to do with whatever my feelings are towards her, but the appalling double standards. Arya is small/petite, but she is clearly no longer a child physically and emotionally. Arya quite clearly had a crush on gendry. She is ogling him while he is making something at the forge shirtless.

Arya isn’t disinterested in romance, her life was pretty dark for a while, so it makes sense that that wasn’t a priority. But, I don’t see why her looks, clothes, when they met, her character arc, etc means that she can’t like someone let alone gendry.

Not only did gendry figure out that she was a girl, he kept her secret and didn’t treat her any differently. They were clearly closer than her and hot pie. Arya was incredibly upset when he decided to go on another path without her and said, “I can be your family.” 

Arya was too young to understand her feelings and act on them...maybe. And gendry may have felt something for her too, but again, the age thing. She’s now an adult and the circumstances are different.

its quite odd for people to be against Arya dating “much” older (only five years) gendry or her being in any relationship at all. 

Yeah, I know I wasn't too young to understand my feelings at that age. Then again, I never went through a boy-hating period, and never got sidetracked by horses. 😉 I think Gendry's completely appropriate given that they were close and he was an honorable friend. They're all grown up now - there's nothing left of the child in Arya given her experiences. Gendry's not only a fond memory of her past, but now a viable friend in the present. Someone (other than family) who knew her at the start of her journey. That's a powerful connection.

[Bali]

One thing that I really loved about this episode (Other than "I've always had blue eyes") is that Dany told Sam what she did. THEN she got to see the human reaction. She's never had to face down a relative of anyone she has crispied. But in Episode 1, she saw what it did. And she saw it on the face of someone she admired. (Sam cured Jorah)

But I also like that Sansa is thinking about how to feed all of these people. Someone needs to think of that stuff. The dead don't eat. Her army needs food, water and protection from the cold. But really, why is she so mean to Tyrion?

Dragons don't like cold. But they could always start a fire. I mean, they are fire breathing creatures. DUH!

I thought that Arya told the faceless men that the Hound is no longer on her list?

I despise Cersei. I really, really do. I don't care about her brat. I just want someone to kill her good and dead before this is all over.  Not to mention- she is SO STUPID!! Yes, you evil *** your son won't be happy when you blow up his wife and her whole family. And then last season she is all happy about how the dead have monsters and the North has monsters, so let the monsters fight it out. YOU STUPID! If all of the monsters die- then the undead Monsters will come after you- you arrogant. UGH! WHY DIDN'T OLEANA KILL HER FOR ME?????

"Why are you so offended by dwarf jokes, but so ready to make with eunuch jokes?" "Because I have balls." Sorry. It made me laugh.

Arya and Jon.

[LadyChaos]

32 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

This reminds me of Robb and Cat in season 2. She wanted him to trade Jamie for Sansa and Arya and Robb responded that he couldn't do that. Cat I believe said something else and Robb told her it wasn't that simple and she knew it.

Robb was a brother and commander too and I believe he loved his sisters as much as Jon loved Rickon. Definitely a hard place to be in and Jon had it worse imo because Rickon was right there in his face which I think made it harder for him to control his emotions.

Yes, but Robb also had the benefit of

1) not physically seeing his sisters in danger right in front of his eyes.

2) knowing that while he had the Kingslayer in his hands, his sister were likely safe. 

[QuinnM]

3 minutes ago, Bali said:

I thought that Arya told the faceless men that the Hound is no longer on her list?

During the game she said that he was on her list and Jaqen hit her, indicating that he knew that was a lie.

[GodsBeloved]

20 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Yes, but Robb also had the benefit of

1) not physically seeing his sisters in danger right in front of his eyes.

2) knowing that while he had the Kingslayer in his hands, his sister were likely safe. 

Right. I did say Jon had it harder. I also agree that another advantage Robb had was having Jamie was a bit of protection for Sansa and Arya.

To be honest though, I love the Young Wolf and lament his death as much as I do Rickon's but I think he would have acted the same as Jon had it been him. 

The idiot blew up the agreement with Walder Frey because he was so in lurve and look at how that turned out.

Arg! Now I'm pissy with Robb again LOL

So back to this episode.

So, the NK, does he only come out in winter? I don't fully understand that aspect yet. Can he and his cohorts survive/roam about in the summer?

Edited April 18, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Constantinople]

I don't know why Tyrion felt the need to pipe up after Jon explained why he bent the knee.
He should be sufficiently self-aware to know that he Northerners hate him because he's a Lannister, and consequently anything Tyrion said would be more likely to put them off than to persuade them.

[AnnaL]

43 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

This reminds me of Robb and Cat in season 2. She wanted him to trade Jamie for Sansa and Arya and Robb responded that he couldn't do that. Cat I believe said something else and Robb told her it wasn't that simple and she knew it.

Robb was a brother and commander too and I believe he loved his sisters as much as Jon loved Rickon. Definitely a hard place to be in and Jon had it worse imo because Rickon was right there in his face which I think made it harder for him to control his emotions.

Awww Rob, I loved Robb, the young wolf, handsome and charismatic. I understood his reasons for refusing the trade. I hated the fact that his sisters were so expendable but I understood that he was making the hard decisions that a person in command sometimes must make.  But then Robb goes ahead and does the most stupid decision he could have made, he married a woman whom he had fallen in love and paid with his life for it. Again, he chose love over duty.  

Jon has made the same mistake over and over, he chose love over duty with Ygritte and then rectify but she still died,  he chose love over duty with Rickon and he died and a lot of his men paid with his life, he chose love over duty when he bent the knee when he didn't have to and I wonder who will pay the price this time.

It never seems to be Jon as he has plot armor but I do wonder down the line who will be. I am leaning towards him doing again something careless in the upcoming war and going for the heroic to defend someone he loves (Dany) and then paying this time with his life. I just hope this time he at least get to kill the NK. 

Edited April 18, 2019 by AnnaL

[Bali]

I think that Jon should tell Dany. Then the proposal can happen. Remember the Targaryans (or however you spell it) are okay with marrying their relatives. Jon and Dany can co-rule.

[Bali]

9 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I don't know why Tyrion felt the need to pipe up after Jon explained why he bent the knee.
He should be sufficiently self-aware to know that he Northerners hate him because he's a Lannister, and consequently anything Tyrion said would be more likely to put them off than to persuade them.

But- Tyrion helped Bran after he fell. And made the whole speech about like cripples, bastards, and broken things. The North also should know that Sansa was married to Tyrion and that Tyrion killed Joffrey. I don't think the Northerners would have a knee jerk "I hate him" reaction to that Lannister. 

[GodsBeloved]

4 minutes ago, AnnaL said:

Awww Rob, I loved Robb, the young wolf, handsome and charismatic. I understood his reasons for refusing the trade. I hated the fact that his sisters were so expendable but I understood that he was making the hard decisions that a person in command sometimes must make.  But then Robb goes ahead and does the most stupid decision he could have made, he married a woman whom he had fallen in love and paid with his life for it. Again, he chose love over duty.  Jon has made the same mistake over and over, he chose love over duty with Ygritte and she paid with her life,  he chose love over duty with Rickon and a lot of his men paid with his life, he chose love over duty when he bent the knee when he didn't have to and I wonder who will pay the price this time. It never seems to be Jon as he has plot armor but I do wonder down the line who will be. 

The entire post and especially the bold part ... You and me ...

Great point about Jon always choosing love over duty. His rearend doesn't belong on the throne LOL

[TaurusRose]

17 minutes ago, AnnaL said:

Awww Rob, I loved Robb, the young wolf, handsome and charismatic. I understood his reasons for refusing the trade. I hated the fact that his sisters were so expendable but I understood that he was making the hard decisions that a person in command sometimes must make.  But then Robb goes ahead and does the most stupid decision he could have made, he married a woman whom he had fallen in love and paid with his life for it. Again, he chose love over duty.  Jon has made the same mistake over and over, he chose love over duty with Ygritte and she paid with her life,  he chose love over duty with Rickon and a lot of his men paid with his life, he chose love over duty when he bent the knee when he didn't have to and I wonder who will pay the price this time. It never seems to be Jon as he has plot armor but I do wonder down the line who will be. 

This is an oversimplification of the facts and ignores all context in which Jon’s actions occurred. He was undercover with the wildlings and though he fell in love with Ygritte, he left her, returned to the NW, and reported on what he learned. So duty over love. Ygritte died because she was part of the raid on the wall. Her life was on the line no matter what because of her decision. Jon’s side was going to rack up massive losses no matter what he did, they were outnumbered. Argue all you want about what Jon did, that is his personality and he was never going to sit still for Rickon.  His duty was to fight with his men to the death, take back Winterfell, and put Ramsay down. He did all of that.  Duty and love are not mutually exclusive.  As far as Dany is concerned and his choice to bend the knee, that story isn’t over. But I will never believe he did that because he loves her. He did it because  she proved herself worthy of his fealty. But... by all means, keep hanging on the narrative that Jon is a simpleton.

Edited April 18, 2019 by taurusrose

[Constantinople]

4 minutes ago, Bali said:

But- Tyrion helped Bran after he fell. And made the whole speech about like cripples, bastards, and broken things.

Only a few people were in the room the time, and all of them except for Tyrion, Bran and Theon are dead.  If Bran was even present during Tyrion's speech in this episode, Bran didn't say anything. Theon wasn't present and would be even less popular than Tyrion.

5 minutes ago, Bali said:

The North also should know that Sansa was married to Tyrion and that Tyrion killed Joffrey.

I don't see how his marriage to Sansa would make Tyrion more popular in the North.

And those who believe Tyrion killed Joffrey may just as easily believe that proves Tyrion is even less trustworthy than a typical Lannister.  Tyrion's portrayal was terrible in the the play performed in Braavos by Lady Crane and Company. The Northerners didn't have the benefit of seeing that play, but it might well summarize popular opinion regarding Tyrion.

[Bali]

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 1:11 AM, Joimiaroxeu said:

Yeah, he might actually be stupid or p-whipped enough not to tell her. But if/when he does it better be in front of a lot of people and not out in the wilderness with the dragons. She'd probably just say "Dracarys" and go on about her day.

Perhaps, but what would happen is she said "Dracarys" and the dragons didn't crispy him?

[AnnaL]

17 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

This is an oversimplification of the facts and ignores all context in which Jon’s actions occurred. He was undercover with the wildlings and though he fell in love with Ygritte, he left her, returned to the NW, and reported on what he learned. So duty over love. Ygritte died because she was part of the raid on the wall. Her life was on the line no matter what because of her decision. Jon’s side was going to rack up massive losses no matter what he did, they were outnumbered. Argue all you want about what Jon did, that is his personality and he was never going to sit still for Rickon.  As far as Dany is concerned and his choice to bend the knee, that story isn’t over. But I will never believe he did that because he loves her. He did it because  she proved herself worthy of his fealty. But... by all means, keep hanging on the narrative that Jon is a simpleton.

I don't think he is a simpleton. I admire him a great deal. He is one of the few who has never actively seek power and the only one who understood since the beginning that the Iron Throne was not the final goal but the war against the WW. Is he perfect? absolutely not, he is as flawed as any other character and he has make and will make mistakes. 

If I could chose anybody to live at the end (besides the Stark kids) it would be Jon. The fact that he makes this mistakes proves that in the world of Game of thrones nobody is perfect. 

I once read an interview with GRRM where he explained that in his world there was no black and white but only shades of gray, some were light grey and some were dark grey and this changed at different point of their lives . Any character (even Cersei) has things they have done for love and that is what makes GRRM narrative so compelling, there is not one character who is perfect, they are all flawed and some learn from their mistakes while other don't. 

Jon will have very hard decisions to make ahead of him, he needs to use his big head. That is all I am saying. I am willing to bet that one of those hard decisions would put him again on the path to chose love over duty and I just hope he makes the right choice

Edited April 18, 2019 by AnnaL

[AnnaL]

48 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

The entire post and especially the bold part ... You and me ...

Great point about Jon always choosing love over duty. His rearend doesn't belong on the throne LOL

LOL

I do think that Jon belongs in the throne though, he doesn't want to but I think that he probably is humble enough to know that he will need good advisors and hopefully he will learn how to use them and will chose them wisely. Daenerys is too arrogant to listen to advice and that is what makes her dangerous in my opinion. Her main drive has been the Iron Throne for too long and there is nothing she will not do to get there. 

An arrogant leader with weapons of mass destruction (dragons) is IMO always a dangerous combination. Co-ruling is an option: Daenerys in the south and Jon in the North (if they don't marry) but if they do marry I think that Daenerys would want to be the Queen, not consort, but Queen with all the powers that this implies. She will not willingly give up the throne to anybody

I actually have thought that Daenerys after they win against the WW and Cersei will go on a power trip and will do something that Jon cannot agree with and this might be the pivotal moment when he realizes that he will have to challenge her claim for the good of the realm, just like Sam told him. I hope it doesn't get to that point but my gut feeling is leaning in that direction. 

[RedHackle]

So sorry if this has already been addressed; honestly, I went through this thread looking for it but all the Dany and Sansa bashing made me skip a lot.

Anyway, here's my question; though it's hard to know for sure, it appears maybe two weeks to a month has elapsed since the previous episode (last ep of Season 7). (I'm basing this on the fact that we know it takes a month to get from King's Landing to Winterfell at least by road, though Jon and Dany et al came by ship. So quicker, no doubt, but on the other hand, while Theon's hair is longer, Cersei's pregnancy has not yet started to show.)

So why did it take this long for Tormund and Beric to get down to the bottom of the wall? We know they can climb the wall in a day. I find it hard to believe it would take two weeks to a month longer to go down. Or am I missing something? I have a feeling I may have missed something which would answer this but I've been puzzling over this.

[Bali]

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 3:42 AM, JayBird23 said:

Maybe she thinks she's not a target right now and she may be right. In many ways, I hate to say it, Cercei at least has a plan. Dany's Dragons are no match for the Night King and his death javelin, he already showed his Olympic acuity. Why shouldn't Cercei roll the dice? 

Uhmmm- because by the time the NK gets to Kings Landing, by that reasoning, he will have 3 undead dragons and then be able to raise the skeletons that are under the keep also.

[Leroux]

18 hours ago, rmontro said:

Whatever fate might await Dany, I hope she doesn't suffer it due to Cersei's machinations.  She doesn't deserve that indignity.

When it comes to Jaime and Cersei this is my wish. 

When the WW take over WF and heads towards KL, Jaime gets there first and sees that Cersei is about to blow up KL with wildfire and just as he did with the Mad King, that he will kill Cersei (valongar) and stabs her in the heart so his sword (which I think is made in part of Ice from Ned) would become light bringer , the magical sword that will kill the NK. So Jaime would become Azor Ahai reincarnated, Jaime would the TPTWP and would vindicate his name. Then Jaime marries Brienne and they have beautiful babies.  

I know it is a long shot but it would hit all the prophesies on the spot. 🙂 

I don't think that Cersei and Daenerys would ever meet again. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

Perhaps, but what would happen is she said "Dracarys" and the dragons didn't crispy him?

Then Dany would have something to think about, wouldn't she? Maybe she's not the reason the dragons tolerate mommy's, uh, boyfriend.

[Leroux]

18 hours ago, izabella said:

It would have been a lot better for everyone if Jon had started things off by introducing Dany at the Council as the woman who saved his life, and lost one of her dragons to do so, while personally risking her own life for him as well.   Who among them wouldn't respect that?

Uhmmm , that could work but I am not so sure that the Northern people would be happy to find out that the NK has an ice dragon now. 

When they hear that the reason why they lost the dragon was because Daenerys didn't want to help Jon and the North unless they could convince Cersei to help and that why they went into that foolish mission then they would be even more worried about their leaders. I mean that mission was completely idiotic if you ask me. Reasons:

1)  They have bothered to spend time to catch a WW and show to Cersei but they haven't bother to show it to them who are in the direct line of fire. 99.5% on them are trusting Jon's word but have never come across one. 

2) Now there is an ice dragon that can potentially decimate their troops in seconds. How do you even manage to protect from it. 

3) After all that waste of time and effort, Cersei is still not coming. 

Maybe for right now that part should be better to leave under wraps. 

[Andromeda]

18 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Yep. I have no idea how the Unsullied are going to fight effectively in the COLD wearing their sleeveless vests

They have sleeves in E1. And gloves.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Andromeda
Gloves!

[BitterApple]

2 hours ago, RedHackle said:

So why did it take this long for Tormund and Beric to get down to the bottom of the wall? We know they can climb the wall in a day. I find it hard to believe it would take two weeks to a month longer to go down. Or am I missing something? I have a feeling I may have missed something which would answer this but I've been puzzling over this.

I don't think he meant "came down" from the Wall literally, as in descend. I think he was using the phrase to say they traveled from the Wall to Last Hearth. I'm not sure about distances, but you could rationalize two weeks if they had to regroup, nurse injuries and assemble supplies after the Night King destroyed the outpost. 

[taanja]

22 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I agree. Everyone across forums and social media was making such a huge deal about the Jon/Arya reunion, but for me that paled in comparison to Sam/Dany. Watching that "Oh, shit" expression on Dany's face as she realized her P.R. problems were about to get a hell of a lot worse and Sam struggling not to breakdown was gut-wrenching. I didn't expect Dany to apologize because it would've been disingenuous, but Sam's such a lovable sweetheart it's hard not to feel like a complete asshole in that moment.

Sam's quivering lip! He's so teddy bear tender and tragically sweet.

[Gummo]

A lot of people are giving Bran shit for not just telling everyone exactly what's going to happen, but what if his foresight doesn't work like that?

What if he sees ALL possible futures and is metaphorically tiptoeing his way through each moment because he's not sure how what he says or does will affect getting from A to B? Or if he sees THE future but not every step on the path there? Again he would have to be very careful about his words & actions because he doesn't know for sure that his revelations wouldn't make people act differently than they did in his visions; heck, their foreknowledge might create a new timeline altogether.

Or (and this is more likely storytelling-wise) Bran is on such a cosmic, mystical plain now, he THINKS he's being simple and clear but to others his pronouncements are mysterious and gnomic.

.

..

... or it's just sloppy, rushed writing. 

[RedHackle]

7 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I don't think he meant "came down" from the Wall literally, as in descend. I think he was using the phrase to say they traveled from the Wall to Last Hearth

I get what you're saying, Bitterapple.  I actually wasn't quoting anyone - I meant it appeared, at least to me, that this was the first time that Tormund and Beric were poking around down at the bottom of the wall since the ice dragon knocked a big part of it down.  What I was wondering was that it seemed like if that's the case then they sure took their sweet time. I probably misunderstood the action, I'll have to rewatch the episode.

[BitterApple]

8 minutes ago, Gummo said:

A lot of people are giving Bran shit for not just telling everyone exactly what's going to happen, but what if his foresight doesn't work like that?

Can Bran see the future? I thought he could only see present and past?

[MarySNJ]

12 hours ago, GrailKing said:

It was a Koboyashi Maru for Jon, Davos and Tormond knew it was a mistake, Jon loves his family.

Just think if Sansa was there and she told him to stay put. What a shit storm that be.

Rickon did have a slightly better chance if Jon did stay back, something like .0002 %

but yeah it was a no win situation.

Do I misremember that before the BotB Sansa said something to Jon like "Rickon is already dead"? I think she already wrote off baby brother. 

[taanja]

13 hours ago, Nanrad said:

When doing a side by side comparison, arya’s features are clearly more mature. Her baby face is gone, but her features haven’t drastically changed. I’m also not sure with her wearing masculine clothes has to do anything about how gendry (May) view her romantically. There connection has primarily been centered around their friendship and how they understand one another. 

Still, in my opinion, that scene was weird and seemed to come out of nowhere. I never -- from what the show showed me and told me --- Never ever ever thought those two had any romantic anything toward one another. He was an older dude (not in a creepy way) who befriended a young girl pretending to be a boy. 

[Gummo]

20 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Can Bran see the future?

Damn good question -- I really don't know.

Okay, experts (I'm just a fan): can Bran see the future?

I thought the "3" in "3-eyed raven" referred to the past, present and future, though.

[proserpina65]

6 minutes ago, Gummo said:

Damn good question -- I really don't know.

Okay, experts (I'm just a fan): can Bran see the future?

I thought the "3" in "3-eyed raven" referred to the past, present and future, though.

I'm pretty sure Bran has said that he can see anything that has happened and is happening.  Nothing about what will happen.

[Kathemy]

My humble review would be here.

<Doux Reviews> <Winterfell>

In short I really liked this for unsuspected reasons. The post-Martin GoT may have found its footing.

[izabella]

1 hour ago, Andromeda said:

They have sleeves in E1. And gloves.

Damn, those Westeros seamstresses are always on their game!  They should be organizing the war.

[MissLucas]

9 minutes ago, izabella said:

Damn, those Westeros seamstresses are always on their game!  They should be organizing the war.

They sure are - they've also recreated Daenerys' gorgeous coat - this time with added Targaryen red!

[Bali]

4 hours ago, RedHackle said:

So why did it take this long for Tormund and Beric to get down to the bottom of the wall? We know they can climb the wall in a day. I find it hard to believe it would take two weeks to a month longer to go down. Or am I missing something? I have a feeling I may have missed something which would answer this but I've been puzzling over this.

They aren't still at the wall. I think they were at the Umber's keep.