S14.E15: Peace of Mind

[OrigamiNightmare]

5 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Thanks, that makes sense!

I still prefer when Cas could put someone to sleep by simply touching their forehead. That was back when he was a real angel, when just looking at his true form would burn out your eyes.  I know those days are gone, but to me it still seems bizarre, and to tell the truth pretty unimpressive, to see an angel struggling and punching and rolling around on the ground trying to subdue a mere human. 

remember when punching an Angel would hurt your hand?

[bozodegama]

Loved that ep  Old school Supernatural Meta episode, silly, weird and funny.  Best line "Your not God. God has a beard"  Just needed one classic rock song and it would've been great.  I know people didn't like it, not sure why.  There's so few funny episodes these days.

[juppschmitz]

3 hours ago, OrigamiNightmare said:

remember when punching an Angel would hurt your hand?

Well, I suppose this is what happens when new writers get told to watch the early seasons while doing the cleaning.

[juppschmitz]

I haven't watched the ep, so maybe I'm missing on Misha's line reading, but that supposed joke "You're not God. God wears a beard." makes me cringe. 

Because if God has a beard (in one incarnation) he couldn't decide to look completely differently whenever he pleases. Or, you know, shave.

*eyeroll*

[gonzosgirrl]

7 hours ago, ahrtee said:

If it was a newbie writer, I'd guess when they started blocking the scenes they found the ep was way too long.  And decided that the Dean scenes were unnecessary and so decided to cut them.  I'm guessing what they cut was all of Dean's angst/guilt scenes and decided to go with just a few flashbacks for Sam.  

What I really don't understand is, if time is an issue, why the everloving hell do they spend 1-2-3 minutes every week on the "Then", sometimes showing scenes we saw last freaking week. The writers don't give a single fuck about canon anyway so showing us the past is extra aggravating. They know most of the audience is obsessive about the show and knows more about it than any given writer - so put that time back into the episode ffs.

[Res]

2 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

I haven't watched the ep, so maybe I'm missing on Misha's line reading, but that supposed joke "You're not God. God wears a beard." makes me cringe. 

Because if God has a beard (in one incarnation) he couldn't decide to look completely differently whenever he pleases. Or, you know, shave.

*eyeroll*

It made me cringe when he said it as well. It also made me cringe enormously when the show actually had Chuck play God which is something that I still cannot stomach to this day.

[SueB]

23 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I respectfully disagree. The writers demonstrated that they have no clue what makes and good and effective leader and  Sam suffered for it. At best, they wrote him as a fairly decent middle manager. Sam was terrible at prioritizing; he either didn’t want to delegate – – either because he didn’t trust his crew or because  he could not relinquish control – – or he didn’t understand why an effective leader delegates (it so they don’t walk around ready to fall over from lack of sleep. Leaders let the second in command handle the groundwork and the day-to-day routine work); he made a bunch of really bad decisions ( bringing Jack and Maggie into a known trap by demons when they know next to nothing and we’re total liabilities? Really?) but got repeatedly pimped about how great he was at the job (which he accepted); he shied away from making the tough calls—just as some examples. 

And I do think that Sam *and* Cas *were* responsible for whatever released Michael did. 

I think Sam’s leadership journey is just beginning.  Yes, he made obvious rookie mistakes — trying to substitute tech for experience (for example).  Once they had the ‘buddy’ rule, I felt Sam had a good system for the AUHunters.  He was balancing his life/responsibilities and they were making a difference. Win/win.  But they were obviously there as narrative chum ripe for tragedy.  And so now Sam is going to have to work through this.  He inspired Maggie, he inspired others. I hope Sam doesn’t give up.  I think long term he has the right idea - organize the hunters to help each other.  

Dean is still the unambiguous leader of TFW 2.0.  Leadership comes naturally to him. He has referent authority based on his track record.    But he’s never really been sparked by the idea of an organized group.  He’s content to let Sam work that.  And he’s smart enough to know that it’s a good idea.  

So, I fully expect that eventually Sam will work through this and continue his efforts.  

In short, Sam has made mistakes but he’s NOT a failure*. He has inspired loyalty. He’s inspired people to save others.  They could have all floated away by now.  I expect they will rebuild.

*And Cas is also NOT a failure but he was burned too badly to try again anytime soon IMO.   I’d love to see him take leadership of Heaven one day.  But not until the series is over.   

I do agree with you that the final damage caused by AUMichael falls heavily on Sam and Cas.  They were not actively working options. They were resisting Dean’s solution.   When Dean got knocked out they should have store him inside the box or at least cuffed him.  But I think they feel that guilt.  I will be happier if they wrestle with it more openly.  

[7kstar]

8 hours ago, OrigamiNightmare said:

remember when punching an Angel would hurt your hand?

I'm half and half on this.  I miss the old days when Cas wasn't weak and yes hitting him would hurt your hand but at least he wasn't taken down by all the Happy humans and didn't turn into the damsel in distress.

5 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Well, I suppose this is what happens when new writers get told to watch the early seasons while doing the cleaning.

Won't say this is the worst ep ever, but it could have been so much more.  The Jack and Dean scenes felt like filler and not really needed.  I didn't mind Dean not being involved in the ep and the Brother talk at the end was pretty much a fail.  I didn't think it was true to character and didn't like what they did to Dean's character.

I guess that is what happens when you don't care about canon and /or characters. 

I got the Pleasantville vibe from the spoilers but the gross way they killed them off - wasn't a fan of.  If it was supposed to fix Sam's depression why would we care?  Only one hunter was ever given a name and we didn't see enough of Maggie to get attached to her, did we? 

I will admit that I thought it was the food at first but misdirects did seem too easy so when the reveal happened I wasn't surprised. 

Meghan Fitzmartin, don't quit your day job, maybe Yockey saved it somewhat...don't know.   But I loved Pleasantville and this wasn't it.  Again the potential is there but it is found lacking. This is the crime for me.  It wasn't because it was Sam and Cas instead of Sam and Dean. I didn't have a problem with them mixing it up.

I would have to think about it to put my finger on it, but not sure I care enough...

Since I had zero expectations, I didn't hate it.  Which is sad because it could have been an awesome idea.  But that would mean the writers understood why the first 4 seasons drew people in. 

My biggest fear, the rest of the season can only go downhill from here...I would love to be proven wrong.

[BlueDiamond]

19 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Isn't this the episode that Jensen posted on instagram that he had some "unexpected" time off?  He took the fam to NO on a surprise vacation.  I wonder what happened to the script that made Dean's participation unnecessary. 

No. The surprise NOLA trip was just after the New Years before they returned to Vancouver after their Christmas hiatus and started filming ep 14. This episode was filmed at the end of January/beginning of February I believe because they switched the filming with episode 16, which was filmed first. 

[gonzosgirrl]

42 minutes ago, BlueDiamond said:

No. The surprise NOLA trip was just after the New Years before they returned to Vancouver after their Christmas hiatus and started filming ep 14. This episode was filmed at the end of January/beginning of February I believe because they switched the filming with episode 16, which was filmed first. 

So is there any known reason why Dean was essentially written out of this episode beyond contracted time off?

[BlueDiamond]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So is there any known reason why Dean was essentially written out of this episode beyond contracted time off?

Not that I know. They just randomly gave Jensen some time off I guess. I don't think he was doing anything specific - that we know off. 

[SueB]

20 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So is there any known reason why Dean was essentially written out of this episode beyond contracted time off?

Essentially 'written out' is more like Sam in "The End".  Dean/Jack's story was definitely second banana but more akin to Sam/Charlie story earlier this season IMO.  Maybe if contracted time off is the driving force, then we've already seen the equivalent for Jared in "Optimism". 

[Bobcatkitten]

I would have loved this episode as a full MOTW - not splitting the storyline again. I want a full hunting episode (though I don't think we are getting those anymore). I thought Jared-playing-Sam-playing-Justin was brilliant and Cas' deadpan confusion was awesome. 

Dean was a nonfactor and I could care less about Jack. 

[Aeryn13]

5 minutes ago, SueB said:

Essentially 'written out' is more like Sam in "The End".  Dean/Jack's story was definitely second banana but more akin to Sam/Charlie story earlier this season IMO.  Maybe if contracted time off is the driving force, then we've already seen the equivalent for Jared in "Optimism". 

Sam still played a valid role in Optimism. This one had a Jack storyline with Donatello as the B plot but Dean was really just shoehorned in as a driver and comic relief with out of context overdone snake fear. He really played no role in this. And his not being affected at all out of everyone was just bizarre.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, SueB said:

Essentially 'written out' is more like Sam in "The End".  Dean/Jack's story was definitely second banana but more akin to Sam/Charlie story earlier this season IMO.  Maybe if contracted time off is the driving force, then we've already seen the equivalent for Jared in "Optimism". 

Not quite the same. The point of Sam being out in The End was to show Dean an alternative future that centered around Sam and Lucifer. Dean/Jensen had the heavy lifting time wise in that  and Jared had a major scene playing Lucifer for the first time. And In the Beginning, Sam's absence was again to show Dean something important about Sam's life and what Dean had to do to help Sam which was Central to the episode. Sam was still key to Optimism.

Jack seeing Donatello could have been done by Castiel or Sam even better who was you know, actually soulless. Sam and Cas hunting together doesn't mesh for me.

They gave Cas lines that sounded like Dean especially the Scanners quip.

Of course, this just fuels my ongoing headcanon that they are going to kill off Dean for real and the pairing of Sam and Cas is to get the auidence used to that pairing vs Dean and Cas.

The only instory reason I can see for Dean to be the one to talk to Jack is setting up Dean to kill him later when and if he goes medium dark side.

And worse, it was weird that Dean suddenly had trouble talking to Jack about being soulless when he had no trouble talking to him  about other things. The awkwardness of that convo fit Cas way more than Dean. Its almost like they filpped Dean and Cas parts on this story but didn't change the lines to fit the characters.

Now, if Jensen had to be written out, I can't see it being solely about the Mardi Gras King thing. So, maybe, there is something else... Much bigger than that he was doing. That's my story and  sticking to it.

[mertensia]

On 3/15/2019 at 6:14 AM, trudysmom said:

All I got from this waste of airspace is that Sam still yearns for a normal, apple pie life.  He was so ready to sucked in to the town's fake perfection.  

See, I saw that as the mayor's brainwashing rays working on Sam. He probably shared most people, had to let a few go because they were too famous/important to keep and may not have been able to control a paranoid schizophrenic not on his meds or an alcoholic too far gone but otherwise kept them.

[catrox14]

Or the mayor pinged on what his victims yearn for on some level,so his ability to control them was made easier because they were happier there than facing whatever trauma befell them.

And I think Sam still wants out of the life and he can't admit it to himself. If Dabb is trying to undo Carver's era, and take Sam back to who he seems to interpret him as, then he has to return Sam to only hunting because of his family dragged him back into it vs what his heart really wants. Maybe they should find another magic pearl and find out Sam's true heart...

[PAForrest]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Not quite the same. The point of Sam being out in The End was to show Dean an alternative future that centered around Sam and Lucifer. Dean/Jensen had the heavy lifting time wise in that  and Jared had a major scene playing Lucifer for the first time. And In the Beginning, Sam's absence was again to show Dean something important about Sam's life and what Dean had to do to help Sam which was Central to the episode. Sam was still key to Optimism.

Jack seeing Donatello could have been done by Castiel or Sam even better who was you know, actually soulless.

I agree there was no logical storyline reason to write out Dean just to babysit Nougat Sue because SOULLESS! when Cas or Sam would be far better equipped to relate. And I don't buy the contract reason here given the fact that Jensen isn't exactly being overworked this year, and was probably under his contract hours at this point.

There is simply no good plot or storytelling purpose for reducing Dean to lunchmeat-sucking comic relief in the aftermath of last week's episode. The truly stupid thing is that if Dabb's assistant simply doesn't want to write for Dean, there was a legit plot excuse to send him away entirely by stating that Dean was rightly pissed off at Sam and Cas for what happened, because it is on them for not doing what he asked them to do with the box, and that Dean needed time away from them and the bunker and was off on his own. Easy peasy, and then Dabb's little protege didn't even have to include him at all.

I'd say too that the CW wouldn't have had to cobble together a promo lie that Dean was in the episode, but they probably would have done that anyway even, if not especially, if he didn't appear at all - or maybe only showed up at the very end from being off on his own. Which, again, would have been a much better and more logical story.

[Bergamot]

On 3/15/2019 at 9:48 AM, rue721 said:

What didn't work for me was that climax when Cas and Sam fought and Cas made Sam come to his senses. Cas's arguments just didn't seem that moving, and I was kind of surprised that Dreamworld!Sam would even be up for randomly stabbing people to death in the diner anyway. Like really, I would have been like, "You're not a murderer! You're not a puppet!" Not "Sure you were a failure as a leader, blah blah blah." Seemed like a weird (and unpersuasive) tact for Cas to take.

I think the idea behind Cas's words was to make clear for the viewer the reason for Sam's behavior in this episode, by echoing the thoughts inside his head: "You have lost your army!" "You failed as a leader!"  It was poorly written, though. For one thing, it was unnecessary, because we all knew from the beginning what was bothering Sam; no big revelation was needed. But also, I thought it was poorly written because it makes it sound as if Sam's biggest problem is that he no longer gets to be the Chief.  Like he was mourning the loss of his leadership position more than he was mourning the loss of his fellow hunters. I mean, come on, I guess it is sad that Sam has lost his "Chief" credentials, but he wasn't exactly the biggest loser in what happened -- Maggie and the others lost their lives.

The fact is though that the writers did such an incredibly poor job this season with the Apocalypse World hunters that it is hard to imagine Sam or anyone else really missing them.  Did Sam have a personal relationship with any of these people? We never saw him eating a meal with them, or joking around with them, or sharing a memory or a story, or even having a conversation with any of them about anything but a hunt. We were told by the writers that they saw Sam as their leader, but we never saw why that was, or why they trusted him enough to follow his orders. So to me Sam as the insta-leader of the hunters always seemed like a pointless artificial construct, not something real or believable.

Sam did seem to have formed a bond with Maggie, but as far as I could tell, she was the exception, and again their conversations were never anything personal, only about hunting assignments. (After she nearly got killed on that one hunt, Sam felt the angst about having sent her, but Dean was the one who talked about it with her afterwards.)  But as others have pointed out, at least we knew her face, her name and something of her history, unlike the majority of that group of anonymous people.

However if Sam was the one who "inspired" her to be a hunter, I'm not sure that he was doing her a favor.  Right after they escaped from the apocalypse world, the first thing we heard about Maggie was not that she was going on a hunt, but that she was dating that convenience store clerk, and why not?  Maggie was very young, and coming to this world gave her a second chance. Maybe Maggie should have been encouraged to try living a normal life in our world, instead of just being enlisted into Sam's army and installed in the bunker for the rest of her short life.

So is Sam going to rebuild his army? I sincerely hope not. For one thing, the writers were not capable of handling the crowd of extra characters. The AU hunters were without depth, just two-dimensional figures that were awkwardly and randomly inserted into certain episodes. When the show needed them for some plot point, the writers would give us an instant snapshot of them filling every corner of the bunker, talking and laughing and hanging out. And when they weren't needed for an episode, suddenly they had completely and totally vanished from sight without any explanation. It was so obvious and ridiculous.

Another thing is that if there is going to be a new army, Sam is not going to be simply handed, as he was with the AU hunters, a whole plateful of experienced guerrilla fighters who had spent years battling supernatural evil. (At least, that's what they were before they came to our world. Then all of the sudden they were goofy neophytes who needed Sam to monitor their every move.) Are we going to see him go to the trouble of recruiting people one-by-one? I don't know why he would want to do that to anyone.

From the beginning, hunters got into "the life" because of some horrible and deadly encounter with the supernatural, which turned their life upside down and led them to dedicate their lives to fighting it. If someone was not already a hunter, why would you want to ask them to be one?

Also, personally I think it's a very bad strategy to form hunters into an organized army, rather than a loose association of equals. It's just asking for something to wipe them all out with one strike. (For example: the hunters at Ellen's roadhouse, the American Men of Letters, the British Men of Letters, the AU hunters in Sam's army.) For all of the above reasons, I hope that the writers will admit to themselves that having an army for Sam to lead was a bad idea, and just drop it.

[BlueDiamond]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Now, if Jensen had to be written out, I can't see it being solely about the Mardi Gras King thing. So, maybe, there is something else... Much bigger than that he was doing. That's my story and  sticking to it.

It couldn't be about Mardi Gras King at all, because that was at the beginning of March. They filmed episode 14.15  almost a whole month earlier than Jensen was needed as Bacchus. So yeah, whatever the reason was, it's something else. 
IIRC, Jensen was briefly seen in Austin when had time off during the filming of this episode. But other than that, I don't think he was seen anywhere to give us any hint what he could have been doing and if his absence in the episode was simply just a bonus time off for him or there actually was a reason why they had to write him out. 

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

 Did Sam have a personal relationship with any of these people?

I would say no because I thought it was very telling that when they rescued Maggie.  When she came home all the AU hunters gathered around her and welcomed her home.  No one even glanced in Sam and Dean's direction and no on even thanked Dean Sam for rescuing her.

8 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Sam did seem to have formed a bond with Maggie,

I wouldn't say they had a bond, other than Sam knew her name.  Because when he asked her to do something and she didn't know how, Sam seemed annoyed that he had to to it himself.   He didn't take the time to really teach her and as you mentioned it was Dean checking up on her afterwards.  So they really didn't seem to have any kind of relationship other than Sam knew her name. 

I agree with the rest of your post about how badly the storyline was handled because I can't disagree with Cas.  IMO, there is a big difference between being in charge and being a leader.  Sam came across mostly as the former.  He gave an order and expected it be followed.  We didn't see him doing any teaching, or mentoring.  He didn't even seemed to trust the people under him since he seemed to be doing it all himself, rather than delegating.   He did this long after Dean came home so its wasn't simply, he needed a distraction from thinking about Dean.   Sam has trouble letting go of control and that is why this whole leader storyline also didn't work.   It just seemed like he liked being called Chief and have people listen to him rather than actually wanting to lead the people under him.

[ahrtee]

The problem I have with the whole Sam-guilt thing is that it's completely ignoring the reason he *should* feel guilty.  It wasn't a failure of leadership--there was no way he could have had his "army" fight off Michael.  His fault was in refusing to let Dean handle Michael in his own way, in his own time, and (other than one brief "I told you so" in the previous episode) that's been completely ignored.  

And, of course, if they want to twist it in the worst possible way (to Deangirls, at least), the reason the army wasn't prepared for Michael was because Sam had trusted that Dean was strong enough to hold off Michael forever.  So the apology would be something like: "I'm sorry I trusted you too much, Dean. I was wrong to have such faith in you."  

[Macbeth]

On March 14, 2019 at 11:53 PM, ParadoxLost said:

It was the first time I saw even a glimpse of the Supernatural I used to love in ages.  I really miss the whacked out nonsense episodes.  Cas' "very tall guy" and "hair" descriptions were approaching meta.  I miss meta episodes too.

Everything about Cas' reactions to 50's land was wonderfully funny.  The problem was that they didn't play with the concept and develop that story enough.  Once Sam got the Stepford treatment it was basically story over lets wrap this up.  Frankly, at the mid point they should have had Cas at wits end and call in Dean for reinforcements and really play around in the environment and deal with Stepford Sam.

I haven't been more amused by the possibilities of exploding heads since BrainDead..

I really liked this episode. And it did remind me of earlier great, stand alone, shows. I haven't watched the newer episodes since early last season except for the 300th. 

I really liked the Cas and Sam pairing, and Castiel's blunt description of the exploding head like "a ripe melon on the sun. "

And Norman Rockwell is basically Castiel's porn is perfect. 

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

He did this long after Dean came home so its wasn't simply, he needed a distraction from thinking about Dean.   Sam has trouble letting go of control and that is why this whole leader storyline also didn't work.   It just seemed like he liked being called Chief and have people listen to him rather than actually wanting to lead the people under him.

I disagree. Sam pretty much relinquished field control to Maggie at least 6 episode ago, which in show time - because there was a time gap - is weeks at least, potentially a month or more by this episode. And Sam seemed perfectly fine with having Maggie take over, beyond apologizing for her having to take on the responsibility. Maggie pretty much had the field leadership role handed over to her in episode 9, and I doubt that would have just happened out of the blue. Sam likely would have been working with her enough or interacting with her enough to trust giving her all of that responsibility.

I didn't see Sam having any trouble letting go of control. As far as I remember, Sam praised Maggie for the job that she had been doing, and seemed to trust her a lot.

And in the last episode, Sam seemed fine with just "checking in" every once in a while while Maggie and the others took care of things on their own while Sam worked his own case with the Gorgon. Maybe that's one of the reasons why he feels guilty now... he's questioning if he should have been there more for the team like he was before: no, in my opinion, because there wasn't anything he could have done beyond putting Dean in the box earlier.

This was just a set up for Sam to fail all around. There was no way - as far as I could tell - that Sam wasn't going to fail. And then imo this episode let us know that that was the purpose through having Castiel point it out.

[SueB]

25 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

This was just a set up for Sam to fail all around. There was no way - as far as I could tell - that Sam wasn't going to fail. And then imo this episode let us know that that was the purpose through having Castiel point it out.

I agree the AUHunters were always fated to die.  I believe Sam will get a recovery arc that will hopefully show Sam accepting this loss and able to lead again.  AUBobby is the better advisor on this than Cas.  Every leader in war loses people - and hunters are always at war.  It sucks.  The good leaders are distraught by the loss but keep moving forward.  I believe Sam will get there and not stagnate with this loss.

[Morrigan2575]

I really liked this episode. Pleasantville Sam was adorable.  It was nice seeing Sam/Castiel out in a case. 

I adore Jack and the Jack/Dean relationship. When Jack first joined the show I likened him to a cat, who always cuddles up to the person that doesn't like cats. Later, I thought Jack developed a bit of hero worship when it came to Dean. In any case I really do love their interactions.

I'm not sure what they're doing with Jack but, I really hope this isn't a Jack goes evil and become the Big Bad situation because I have really come to adore Jack. 

[SueB]

Rewatch thoughts (see bold and summary for TL;DR):

Pre-amble: I liked it much better on rewatch.  For me, I think that often is the case because I put my preconceived notions on hold and just watch what they give.  But (and I may have said this before), I think some of what appears jarring/disconnected on first watch feels less of an issue on second watch.  And I think that the number of times they revise the scripts and run through the editing process contributes to the sense of discontinuties for live, once-only viewers.  Specifically, the creators reread/rewatch the episode so many times that they start to miss the problems.  Supernatural has a tendancy to assume more out of it's audience (IMO) than most shows.  So, although we spend time in the "then" revisiting history to help smooth plot points, the writers/creators presume that some elements of Supernatural lore are expected knowledge before watching an episode.  Example: they don't need to remind us that 'messy, bodily fluids' damage is a witch indicator.  Sam just says 'feel's witchy' and we understand why.  BUT, everyone's knowledge and intensity level varies and sometimes I think they expect too much.  It was nice, for example that we got an acknowledgement that Cas told Dean about Pleasantville Sam on the phone.  Sometimes we are left uncertain as to what info was passed on in 'offscreenville'.  

Specifics:

• Dean's storyline made more sense this second time.  The first time I was a bit distracted by the comedy bits.  While fun, I couldn't see the through-line of his story.  And his story is simple that of post-Michael damage management- mostly in the form of impact to his family (because Dean IS the head of the family as a default mode for most of the time). 
  - For Sam, they had already done 4 hunts in a row and Dean assesses him to be 'full of crap' when he says he's fine.  Sam's was clearly in 'distraction mode', a tried and true Winchester recovery model, and Dean supported it while understanding Sam wasn't really coping well.  So Dean was quick to point out the need for sleep.  And when Sam wasn't ready for that, he was comfortable enough with Cas on 'Sam patrol' while he took over Jack-management.  And it worked well.  When Sam came home from his Pleasantville adventure, Dean got his 1-on-1 Sammy time in and Sam opened up.  And Dean's 'family management' skills here are awesome.  He triggers the conversation with 'Really happy, huh?'  And that was all Sam needed to spill his guts.  Dean's totally engaged in the conversation but doesn't interrrupt.  He lets Sam work himself into the right headspace (and he does) and then gives him a head nod/shoulder squeeze and "Okay."  If Sam hadn't spoken frankly and then come to the right conclusion, Dean was (IMO) more than ready to jump in.  But this is not the Dean of 2007. He's MUCH more patient.  He knew that letting Sam talk it thru outloud would result in a Sam-authentic solution.  And the remaining action of 'more time' is exactly right.  So all that was left was for Dean to affirm Sam (and he did need to provide that affirmation) with an 'okay' (and the implied 'I trust your judgement').  THIS is parenting/leadership - tailored just right for his brother.  Very subtle and spot on. 
  - Jack, OTOH, is just 'off'.  And while Cas said he didn't think the soul was completely gone, Dean is not so sure.  I really like Dean's 'parenting' approach of taking him to Donatello for a 'read'.  He lets the two of them talk WITHOUT him hovering over Jack -- allowing Jack to speak freely to Donatello.  Again, subtle but excellent skills on display. We heard from Jack that TFW 2.0 hovering was an issue -- so Dean's pretty smart in 'hanging back' for that dialog.  But he did not get everything he was hoping for from Donatello. When he flat out asked 'Donny' if Jack has a soul, Donatello equivocates and tells him to just keep an eye on Jack.  So Dean did NOT get an unambigous answer.  If anything, Dean comes back more worrried about Jack than he was before they went.  I'm glad they did a call-back to the Soulless Sam time and Dean's distress during that time. I think Dean's is going to be the best judge of whether or not Jack has a soul - and the answer is potentially 'no'.  (see discussion below on why Jack is not simply an 'angel' now). So the episode ends with Jack is NOT fine and Dean definitely knows it. 
  - Cas was pretty much Dean's partner in the family damagement control this week.  Dean knows Cas is most worried about Jack and that's where Dean spends his time.  Again, a good strategy to try to work on the problem via divide and conquer this week. Because helping Jack helps Cas. However, its not lost on me that Cas immediately races off to check on Jack (hovering!) as soon as he gets back.  I suspect (but can't say for sure) that Dean picked up on that.
  - Rowena: Noticed how she called Dean?  Normally Sam would be her go-to for routine matters.  But it's Dean she calls to 'check in'.  She's family-adjacent vice family, but Dean feels a responsibility to her and defers sleeptime to talk to her.  And his assessment for her is that she's 'coping' and at least she's not dead. Seems about the right level of engagement.
  - Dean himself: I think part of Dean's "lightness" this week is that he is no longer hearing Michael pounding in his head like he had for months prior.  It's like losing a migraine after several weeks.  You feel disproportionately better in comparison to where you were before.  I also suspect Dean feels lucky that the full extent of the AUMichael escape damage was limited to the death of the AUHunters versus the loss of the planet (as Billy told him).  While the AUHunters death is bad, Dean is right (IMO) to feel like they dodged a major bullet -- they got off relatively lucky.  So while Dean needs to address his OWN issues - his first and foremost thought is to do family 'triage'. This episode was that triage. When Dean feels the family is on the recovery tract,  he might start his own mental unpacking -- right now, it's not a priority to him.  And I'm actually okay with that.  So long as it happens sooner rather than later, a delay is okay.  If it never happens, then that is unhealthy.  But his 'upswing' after being AUMichael's jailor is natural IMO.
  Note: I have thoughts on the writer's choices for Dean -- I'm taking that to BvJ. 
   
• Pleasantville was really well done.  The A & B stories (Pleasantville vs FieldTrip) did NOT mesh well in editing but when Pleasantville is looked at in isolation - the MOTW story was really good.  Regarding the A & B plot issue -- it's one of 'tone'.  They tried to lighten up the Field Trip plot with Dean humor but it was jarring to go from Pleasantville to Field Trip.  Pleasantville would have been better served without any B-plot.  Because the 'altered reality' got disrupted everytime we went back to reality.  And the ease with which Sam gives himself over to 'pot roast for dinner!' happiness is on-target for where Sam's issues are.  Which is often what these MOTW stories are supposed to do -- they give us insight into where our characters are.  At first I was bothered by how the guy seemed to randomly control the town.  Then I picked up that he was 'always lucky' in the past -- especially at poker.  Which means his nascent skills were primarily telepathy until the death of his wife.  Then he had a related rage-induced moment regarding how shitty life was and his powers kicked in.  Starting with simply getting more people into his store.  Once he figured it out, just like the psychic kids from S1/S2, he learned how to control it.  I don't think that means he was a 'special kid' of a different generation (because he passed on his telepathy skills genetically to his daughter).  But simply a natural telepath (like Magda of "American Nightmare) turned rotten by his own personality.  And I like how Sunny's powers went up a notch once her rage over Conrad's death was evident.  Tracks with how she was now able to take on her Dad.  But beyond plot details, the props, the sets, and the humor were all outstanding.  I had no problem with the mayor making his world with selective technology.  He was the beardless 'god' of his little domain.  So cell phones 'no', electric alarm clocks 'yes'.  It also took me until the second watch to realize that the mayor was telepathically able to be in contact with EVERYONE in the town.  Which is why the 'agents' news was immeidately spread to all the 1950's Stepford Townspeople.  Had a bit of a 'Get Out' vibe for me when the previous 'Justin' woke up.  Also, I noticed that there was some diversity in the people.  Perhaps it's simply who showed up in town (that could then be turned into mind-controlled residence).   Still, the mayor was flat-out evil -- no doubt.  And I'm worried that Sunny, now that she's more powerful, will need some guidance rather than be simply left alone.  While her father's crimes are an important cautionary tale for her -- that's an awful lot of unchecked power in one person.  This whole storyline is chockful of quotes and memes.  
   
• Jack's in trouble.  As mentioned above, I think Jack is near soulless and it's NOT that he's simply an almost-angel now that his soul is mostly burned off.  Because angels were literally made by God (the bearded one).  They all have the prophets 'inscribed' on their eyelids.  They were all give their 'root instructions' by God (see Crowley's torture of Alphie).  They were conditioned to follow Heaven's orders -- although that conditioning was eventually broken.  But they have eons of time living a certain ethos.  Jack is a nephilm with his soul burned off of his humanity.  Now, it's definitely a WTF'ery that he's still uber-powerful if there is no soul-power adding the secret sauce to make him more than an archangel.  But maybe he's just closer to archangel class in powers now.  Either way, what his is NOT is an eons-old angel hand crafted by God.  He's a unique powerful entity with an improvised moral code (what would the Winchesters do).  And his instincts are off (killing the snake was bad). I adore the Cinnamon Role.  As he is now, he's dead inside.  He's only going thru the nougat motions.  I'm keenly interested in seeing him get his soul back -- and not sure where you can pick one of those badboys up -- cause I think Chuck MADE souls -- and it made him naseous.  I don't think a soul can be borrowed.  

Bottom Line for the TL;DR:  Dean's story was much more interesting on second watch.  It was all about his triage of the post-AUMichael family and their 'peace of mind'.  Sam's better, Rowena will be okay.  Cas is wound tight and Jack is a hot mess.  The Pleasantville story was well done but didn't mesh well with a B-plot.  The tonal shift was an issue.  Still, I'm more more invested in the character outcomes of this episode after second watch. 

[Dobian]

On 3/15/2019 at 3:55 AM, PinkChicken said:

I really didn't like the angel vs devil food cake bit, *dramatic music* we get it already. Also real smooth Dean. 

What Dean could have done was throw in a third option, like a pack of Ho-Hos.  Jack could have avoided the moral controversy by choosing Ho-Hos.

I liked the episode because I like these kind of episodes where they split the group up and have a main and a side plot.  And the main plot was pretty interesting and funny, with Sam turning into the Stepford husband.  That wife screaming at Castiel when he was about to sit in her husband's chair was hysterical.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, Dobian said:

What Dean could have done was throw in a third option, like a pack of Ho-Hos.  Jack could have avoided the moral controversy by choosing Ho-Hos.

I think Ho-Ho's come with their own moral controversy.  LOL.

[companionenvy]

This wasn't the best or most ambitious episode SPN has ever done, but it was the most purely enjoyable MOW I've seen in a while, one with a humor and energy that's been missing for me for some time. Yeah, the retconned depiction of soullessness still bugs, and Dean's part was pretty minimal, but he's gotten plenty of focus this season, and I liked the opportunity to explore the rarer team-up of Sam and Cas - with Cas winding up taking the lead, no less. This is also the first time in a long time I've been interested enough in the case of the week not to fast forward through the non-main cast scenes. 

I hope this writer gets another chance. For me, she got the humor/angst balance of an MOW episode of SPN just right, and I wouldn't assume that she can't write the bro-bond or Dean just because it was mostly MIA for this particular episode. 

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

I think Ho-Ho's come with their own moral controversy.  LOL.

I was gonna say the same thing - hee!

[Bergamot]

3 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I wouldn't assume that she can't write the bro-bond or Dean just because it was mostly MIA for this particular episode. 

Actually, I am not assuming that she can't write for Dean. I would just like to know why she didn't.

And to be clear, by that I am not referring to the quantity of screen time or focus that Dean got in the episode, but rather to the quality of her writing for Dean. It would have been perfectly fine with me if in the previous episode -- instead of Michael exiting Dean and then Jack burning off his soul to kill him -- if Michael had taken back control of Dean while he was unconscious, and then Jack burned off his soul to force him into the Ma'lak Box. I would prefer a hundred times more that Dean had been missing from this entire episode because he was in the box, than have him in the episode the way that he was. That would have been totally fine with me.

I knew that there would be excuses attempted on the basis that what we saw was Dean was just setting aside his own issues to take care of his family, but that excuse doesn't fly with me. For one thing, with the possible exception of one scene at the end, there was never any indication that Dean even had any issues of his own to be set aside. If you didn't know why Dean might be struggling with what happened with Michael, or to the AU hunters or Jack, you would not learn anything about it in this episode.

For another thing, the Dean we saw in this episode was not all that interested in helping his family deal with their issues, from what I could tell. He was interested in eating a huge sandwich and in getting a good night's rest. Cas was the one who said that he would go on the hunt to watch out for Sam, and Cas was the one who suggested that Dean should try to help Jack. Dean was so unenthusiastic about this idea that Cas got angry about it, scornfully adding that afterwards Dean could "sleep til the cows come home". Not exactly a picture of someone who is determined to help his family, if he has to be scorned into doing it.

And then after that, Dean spent the rest of the episode basically doing nothing but being stupidly afraid of the snake, a gag that was pointlessly carried on way too long. If the show had wanted us to see Dean repressing his own issues, we would have -- Jensen would have had no problem showing us that. The only exception to all this, where Dean was not bizarro Dean, was the scene at the end where Dean talks to Sam; thanks to Jensen's acting, you can see that he is sympathizing with Sam and ready to listen to him if he needs to talk. And I wanted to think that when Dean said, "Not much happy around here" that he was speaking of himself as well. But I might have been reading something into that line because I wanted to.

[gonzosgirrl]

The cheap, lazy insulting rip-off  re-enactment of Dean and Cas's epic fight in The Prisoner is enough for me to discount Dabb's mouthpiece as a legitimate Supernatural writer. She is, however,  the perfect embodiment of a Dabbernatural writer. I imagine she'll be a producer by next season. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Bergamot said:

For another thing, the Dean we saw in this episode was not all that interested in helping his family deal with their issues, from what I could tell. He was interested in eating a huge sandwich and in getting a good night's rest.

And bacon. Don't forget that award worthy scene where he tells us he loves bacon. I guess that's the new remedy for instantly recovering from archangel possession. 

[trudysmom]

On 3/16/2019 at 3:27 PM, SueB said:

AUBobby is the better advisor on this than Cas.

Unless he comes back from his ramblings and tears Sam a new one for letting "his people" die.  That's another thing that pisses me off.  He brought his surly butt over her with his people he was so dedicated to saving, then he and Mary, who if I recall, also chose saving them over her own sons, then they  up and left.  Left Sam and Dean to deal with Michael.  Left his people to sink or swim in this 'where'.   I loved original recipe Bobby but this asshat can stay gone. 

As to Sam and his leadership, I think he was sort of leader by default after Dean was gone with Michael.  But when they were all killed, he just felt guilty.  That's sort of the Winchester go-to feels when someone dies, like they failed at protecting them.  

[gonzosgirrl]

I allow that there were some funny moments in this episode, and I do appreciate most of the high-concept episodes of the series. And I can appreciate that using humor to deal with trauma is a Dean characteristic and one of the reasons I love him. But there was no balance, no nuance, no trace of him having any lasting effects from having Michael bashing his brain from the inside for weeks, or escaping and murdering a half dozen people in the bunker. This is not bitter Dean fan or BvJ - I would have said the same if Sam was acting like last week didn't happen, too. But that didn't happen. We got silly, dorky Stepford husband Sam, but we also got to see how badly he was affected by Michael. How could they just leave Dean to comic relief?

Edited March 18, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[tessathereaper]

Moved to bitch vs jerk.  Sorry can't figure out how to edit this right.

Edited March 19, 2019 by tessathereaper

[tessathereaper]

On 3/17/2019 at 1:21 PM, SueB said:

Bottom Line for the TL;DR:  Dean's story was much more interesting on second watch.  It was all about his triage of the post-AUMichael family and their 'peace of mind'.  Sam's better, Rowena will be okay.  Cas is wound tight and Jack is a hot mess.  The Pleasantville story was well done but didn't mesh well with a B-plot.  The tonal shift was an issue.  Still, I'm more more invested in the character outcomes of this episode after second watch. 

It shouldn't take a second watch to make Dean's storyline interesting, IMO or to be able to come with some sort of ideas for it that aren't actually on the screen.  The story had nothing to do with Dean.  He just floundered around Jack.  I saw nothing about him taking an active part, he just was sort of along for the ride, coasting along on his "immunity".  

On 3/16/2019 at 10:25 AM, PAForrest said:

I agree there was no logical storyline reason to write out Dean just to babysit Nougat Sue because SOULLESS! when Cas or Sam would be far better equipped to relate. And I don't buy the contract reason here given the fact that Jensen isn't exactly being overworked this year, and was probably under his contract hours at this point.

There is simply no good plot or storytelling purpose for reducing Dean to lunchmeat-sucking comic relief in the aftermath of last week's episode. The truly stupid thing is that if Dabb's assistant simply doesn't want to write for Dean, there was a legit plot excuse to send him away entirely by stating that Dean was rightly pissed off at Sam and Cas for what happened, because it is on them for not doing what he asked them to do with the box, and that Dean needed time away from them and the bunker and was off on his own. Easy peasy, and then Dabb's little protege didn't even have to include him at all.

I'd say too that the CW wouldn't have had to cobble together a promo lie that Dean was in the episode, but they probably would have done that anyway even, if not especially, if he didn't appear at all - or maybe only showed up at the very end from being off on his own. Which, again, would have been a much better and more logical story.

Now THAT would have been good, I'd have liked that.  Dean taking off on his own for a few days because he was quite rightly pissed off at Sam and Castiel.  But instead we get the Dumbo Dean who doesn't know how to eat like a grown man and is comically afraid of snakes who has to be berated into doing something other than sleep.  Dabb's assistant is a terrible writer who knows nothing about the characterization.  I don't think she even paid attention when she was cleaning her house.

On 3/16/2019 at 9:55 AM, catrox14 said:

Not quite the same. The point of Sam being out in The End was to show Dean an alternative future that centered around Sam and Lucifer. Dean/Jensen had the heavy lifting time wise in that  and Jared had a major scene playing Lucifer for the first time. And In the Beginning, Sam's absence was again to show Dean something important about Sam's life and what Dean had to do to help Sam which was Central to the episode. Sam was still key to Optimism.

Jack seeing Donatello could have been done by Castiel or Sam even better who was you know, actually soulless. Sam and Cas hunting together doesn't mesh for me.

They gave Cas lines that sounded like Dean especially the Scanners quip.

Of course, this just fuels my ongoing headcanon that they are going to kill off Dean for real and the pairing of Sam and Cas is to get the auidence used to that pairing vs Dean and Cas.

The only instory reason I can see for Dean to be the one to talk to Jack is setting up Dean to kill him later when and if he goes medium dark side.

And worse, it was weird that Dean suddenly had trouble talking to Jack about being soulless when he had no trouble talking to him  about other things. The awkwardness of that convo fit Cas way more than Dean. Its almost like they filpped Dean and Cas parts on this story but didn't change the lines to fit the characters.

Now, if Jensen had to be written out, I can't see it being solely about the Mardi Gras King thing. So, maybe, there is something else... Much bigger than that he was doing. That's my story and  sticking to it.

Couldn't have been much bigger, I mean he's doing conventions this hiatus, if he had something bigger to do, he wouldn't have time to do conventions.  It was beyond weird that Dean had trouble talking to Jack all of sudden?  I swear to god, this is like Bizarro Supernatural.  Maybe we'll find out all this time we've actually been in another AU of our world and the real Dean(and the rest of them) of our original Supernatural world are dealing with other dangerous, exciting, dark stuff, that's actually interesting and feels like Supernatural and we'll find out all about in Season 15!(see I can't be hopeful too LOL)

On 3/16/2019 at 12:37 PM, Bergamot said:

I think the idea behind Cas's words was to make clear for the viewer the reason for Sam's behavior in this episode, by echoing the thoughts inside his head: "You have lost your army!" "You failed as a leader!"  It was poorly written, though. For one thing, it was unnecessary, because we all knew from the beginning what was bothering Sam; no big revelation was needed. But also, I thought it was poorly written because it makes it sound as if Sam's biggest problem is that he no longer gets to be the Chief.  Like he was mourning the loss of his leadership position more than he was mourning the loss of his fellow hunters. I mean, come on, I guess it is sad that Sam has lost his "Chief" credentials, but he wasn't exactly the biggest loser in what happened -- Maggie and the others lost their lives.

The fact is though that the writers did such an incredibly poor job this season with the Apocalypse World hunters that it is hard to imagine Sam or anyone else really missing them.  Did Sam have a personal relationship with any of these people? We never saw him eating a meal with them, or joking around with them, or sharing a memory or a story, or even having a conversation with any of them about anything but a hunt. We were told by the writers that they saw Sam as their leader, but we never saw why that was, or why they trusted him enough to follow his orders. So to me Sam as the insta-leader of the hunters always seemed like a pointless artificial construct, not something real or believable.

Sam did seem to have formed a bond with Maggie, but as far as I could tell, she was the exception, and again their conversations were never anything personal, only about hunting assignments. (After she nearly got killed on that one hunt, Sam felt the angst about having sent her, but Dean was the one who talked about it with her afterwards.)  But as others have pointed out, at least we knew her face, her name and something of her history, unlike the majority of that group of anonymous people.

However if Sam was the one who "inspired" her to be a hunter, I'm not sure that he was doing her a favor.  Right after they escaped from the apocalypse world, the first thing we heard about Maggie was not that she was going on a hunt, but that she was dating that convenience store clerk, and why not?  Maggie was very young, and coming to this world gave her a second chance. Maybe Maggie should have been encouraged to try living a normal life in our world, instead of just being enlisted into Sam's army and installed in the bunker for the rest of her short life.

So is Sam going to rebuild his army? I sincerely hope not. For one thing, the writers were not capable of handling the crowd of extra characters. The AU hunters were without depth, just two-dimensional figures that were awkwardly and randomly inserted into certain episodes. When the show needed them for some plot point, the writers would give us an instant snapshot of them filling every corner of the bunker, talking and laughing and hanging out. And when they weren't needed for an episode, suddenly they had completely and totally vanished from sight without any explanation. It was so obvious and ridiculous.

Another thing is that if there is going to be a new army, Sam is not going to be simply handed, as he was with the AU hunters, a whole plateful of experienced guerrilla fighters who had spent years battling supernatural evil. (At least, that's what they were before they came to our world. Then all of the sudden they were goofy neophytes who needed Sam to monitor their every move.) Are we going to see him go to the trouble of recruiting people one-by-one? I don't know why he would want to do that to anyone.

From the beginning, hunters got into "the life" because of some horrible and deadly encounter with the supernatural, which turned their life upside down and led them to dedicate their lives to fighting it. If someone was not already a hunter, why would you want to ask them to be one?

Also, personally I think it's a very bad strategy to form hunters into an organized army, rather than a loose association of equals. It's just asking for something to wipe them all out with one strike. (For example: the hunters at Ellen's roadhouse, the American Men of Letters, the British Men of Letters, the AU hunters in Sam's army.) For all of the above reasons, I hope that the writers will admit to themselves that having an army for Sam to lead was a bad idea, and just drop it.

Same this idea that they need some sort of 'hunter army' is terrible and impractical and frankly leaves them open for mass killings.   At best they need some lose communications networks, like with Bobby or the Roadhouse(and even Kripke saw the idiocy of the Roadhouse, that's why  he destroyed it, THAT is what the hunting life is supposed to be), it's not supposed to family friendly, it's not supposed to be fuzzy and glorious and heroic, though some of those taking part in it ARE heroes.  It's supposed to lonely and dangerous and dark and something you would never pull someone into who wasn't in it already but which once you were in it, it was almost impossible to get out of, at least alive.  Hunters are supposed to be suspicious of everyone, except perhaps a few well-earned, battle tested friends.  Not Sam giving pep talks to AUCharlie that sound like some sort of recruitment commercial.  

On 3/16/2019 at 12:53 PM, ILoveReading said:

I would say no because I thought it was very telling that when they rescued Maggie.  When she came home all the AU hunters gathered around her and welcomed her home.  No one even glanced in Sam and Dean's direction and no on even thanked Dean Sam for rescuing her.

I wouldn't say they had a bond, other than Sam knew her name.  Because when he asked her to do something and she didn't know how, Sam seemed annoyed that he had to to it himself.   He didn't take the time to really teach her and as you mentioned it was Dean checking up on her afterwards.  So they really didn't seem to have any kind of relationship other than Sam knew her name. 

I agree with the rest of your post about how badly the storyline was handled because I can't disagree with Cas.  IMO, there is a big difference between being in charge and being a leader.  Sam came across mostly as the former.  He gave an order and expected it be followed.  We didn't see him doing any teaching, or mentoring.  He didn't even seemed to trust the people under him since he seemed to be doing it all himself, rather than delegating.   He did this long after Dean came home so its wasn't simply, he needed a distraction from thinking about Dean.   Sam has trouble letting go of control and that is why this whole leader storyline also didn't work.   It just seemed like he liked being called Chief and have people listen to him rather than actually wanting to lead the people under him.

Yep, Underpants Gnomes. 🙂

On 3/16/2019 at 12:59 PM, ahrtee said:

The problem I have with the whole Sam-guilt thing is that it's completely ignoring the reason he *should* feel guilty.  It wasn't a failure of leadership--there was no way he could have had his "army" fight off Michael.  His fault was in refusing to let Dean handle Michael in his own way, in his own time, and (other than one brief "I told you so" in the previous episode) that's been completely ignored.  

And, of course, if they want to twist it in the worst possible way (to Deangirls, at least), the reason the army wasn't prepared for Michael was because Sam had trusted that Dean was strong enough to hold off Michael forever.  So the apology would be something like: "I'm sorry I trusted you too much, Dean. I was wrong to have such faith in you."  

Actually this would be VERY in character for Sam if I thought for a single second that is what they were going to for, but just like in the past, I suspect it is not.  This is how he's been written over and over again over the years but is never ever called on it.  He feels guilty for the crap he isn't responsible for(because it ignores what he IS actually to blame for, which he couldn't get a pat on the head and a "isn't your fault" or "its on all of us").  And then he finds a way to blame it on Dean in some way, which the show invariably lets said accusation/blame stand unquestioned and as accepted fact.  

[ZennyKenny]

On 3/14/2019 at 8:09 PM, S Cook Productions said:

I can’t believe how different I am from most of you lol. I loved this episode! It reminded me of Hunter Heroci from season 8, which I also loved.

Same here! We all loved it and were dying at Sam's make-over. My favorite episode this season other than the slasher tribute one.

Tbh I can barely even remember any of the other episodes. (if it helps, I don't really follow the lore much anymore, because... well, why? The writers obviously don't.)

[Emma9]

On 3/15/2019 at 2:10 PM, BlueSapphire said:

I was rolling my eyes at the ridiculously dramatic long shots of the cream swirling in the coffee, which apparently was so mesmerizing that the episode needed two of them.

That was the point when this one went from 'Eh, it's a crack episode, and I always find those hit-or-miss' to 'Someone turn me to a pile of ash and end this torture already.' Let's put it this way:

On 3/15/2019 at 9:46 AM, starfishka said:

All am gonna say is: am really happy this season has "only" 20 episodes.

When I read that, I glanced up at the post header, and I was relieved that we're 3/4 of the way through.

~

On 3/15/2019 at 3:16 AM, tennisgurl said:

I wish we could have had the whole episode about the town so they could more fully explore the concept, but everytime it started getting really interesting, we had to cut back to Jack, the true star of the show apparently.

Sing it. The guy who suddenly started remembering his daughter got to me more than anything - especially with what happened with Sam, clearly the mayor has just been assimilating passers-by into the town as needed. You'd think there'd be a spike of missing persons in the area that would have drawn their attention to begin with. (Scarecrow, anyone? Talk about nostalgia.) Were the mayor and his daughter the only (presumably immortal/ish?) remnants of the original townsfolk, or did everybody else stay the same as long as they didn't start questioning their 'reality'? If not, did everybody else just suddenly wake up once the mayor was neutralized? I would have liked to see some of those ramifications.

But no.

Look, I'll confess: I still don't like Cas all that much. Hated Crowley by the end. Never was a huge fan of Kevin. Etc. But at least I got why those characters attracted enough fandom commotion to merit a bigger presence on the show. I may be out of the loop these days due to severe lack of interest, but were there really that many people out there clamoring for Jack to become basically the centerpiece?

When he told Donatello he wanted some time to himself, I thought, 'AWESOME, why don't you go disappear for a dozen or so episodes and we can get Mary and Bobby back instead.'

Edited March 21, 2019 by Emma9

[Pondlass1]

I thought it lightweight and silly considering what has gone down with Dean.

[ILoveReading]

https://fangasmthebook.com/2019/03/21/supernatural-brings-some-laughs-with-peace-of-mind/

You know the writing is bad when Fangasm "I love everything" sees the same problem with the writing for Dean in this ep that a lot of us had.

That he was too jolly and cheerful and he should have been feeling guilt too,

[PAForrest]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

https://fangasmthebook.com/2019/03/21/supernatural-brings-some-laughs-with-peace-of-mind/

You know the writing is bad when Fangasm "I love everything" sees the same problem with the writing for Dean in this ep that a lot of us had.

That he was too jolly and cheerful and he should have been feeling guilt too,

Yeah, they don't normally find fault with the show ever, especially where it concerns Dean. So that is both surprising and really not as Bergamot so eloquently explained it:

On 3/17/2019 at 10:22 PM, Bergamot said:

...It would have been perfectly fine with me if in the previous episode -- instead of Michael exiting Dean and then Jack burning off his soul to kill him -- if Michael had taken back control of Dean while he was unconscious, and then Jack burned off his soul to force him into the Ma'lak Box. I would prefer a hundred times more that Dean had been missing from this entire episode because he was in the box, than have him in the episode the way that he was. That would have been totally fine with me.

I knew that there would be excuses attempted on the basis that what we saw was Dean was just setting aside his own issues to take care of his family, but that excuse doesn't fly with me. For one thing, with the possible exception of one scene at the end, there was never any indication that Dean even had any issues of his own to be set aside. If you didn't know why Dean might be struggling with what happened with Michael, or to the AU hunters or Jack, you would not learn anything about it in this episode.

For another thing, the Dean we saw in this episode was not all that interested in helping his family deal with their issues, from what I could tell. He was interested in eating a huge sandwich and in getting a good night's rest. Cas was the one who said that he would go on the hunt to watch out for Sam, and Cas was the one who suggested that Dean should try to help Jack. Dean was so unenthusiastic about this idea that Cas got angry about it, scornfully adding that afterwards Dean could "sleep til the cows come home". Not exactly a picture of someone who is determined to help his family, if he has to be scorned into doing it.

And then after that, Dean spent the rest of the episode basically doing nothing but being stupidly afraid of the snake, a gag that was pointlessly carried on way too long. If the show had wanted us to see Dean repressing his own issues, we would have ...

Lemuria said very much the same thing in one of the other threads, BvJ, I think. Bottom line, tv is a visual medium, and if you don't see it happening on screen - or if at the very least no one on screen references something or someone - then it didn't happen, or it's not happening. I very much thought, hey, if I was a newbie who happened to be flipping the channel and tuned into this episode, I would have come away assuming something bad happened the episode before that must have only had something to do with the characters of Sam and Jack, maybe Cas, and some chick named Rowena who isn't appearing in this episode for whatever reason. And that Dean guy wasn't even there and must only show up occasionally as comic relief.

Dean spending an episode - or at this point the rest of the season - in the Ma'lak Box would frankly have been pure brilliance by comparison, if for no other reason than it would have followed canon of only four freaking episodes before, and wouldn't have crapped all over not just Dean, but Billie as a character and her wonderful scene in Nihilism. I'm left not only baffled that Michael did nothing to Dean, but questioning whether Billie is a lying liar who lies, or who is simply the most moronic reaper in existence who clearly has no idea what the hell she's talking about. How did a reaper so stupid get the gig as Death? Is the cosmic bar really that low?

Short of shoving Dean in the Ma'lak Box, Dean should have spent this episode being pissed off - at Sam, at Cas, and even if not especially at Billie for telling him he had no options when obviously all he had to do was a whole lot of nothing and walk away fine and dandy to spend the rest of his days scarfing lunch meat.

[ILoveReading]

10 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Yeah, they don't normally find fault with the show ever, especially where it concerns Dean. So that is both surprising and really not as Bergamot so eloquently explained it:

Lemuria said very much the same thing in one of the other threads, BvJ, I think. Bottom line, tv is a visual medium, and if you don't see it happening on screen - or if at the very least no one on screen references something or someone - then it didn't happen, or it's not happening. I very much thought, hey, if I was a newbie who happened to be flipping the channel and tuned into this episode, I would have come away assuming something bad happened the episode before that must have only had something to do with the characters of Sam and Jack, maybe Cas, and some chick named Rowena who isn't appearing in this episode for whatever reason. And that Dean guy wasn't even there and must only show up occasionally as comic relief.

Dean spending an episode - or at this point the rest of the season - in the Ma'lak Box would frankly have been pure brilliance by comparison, if for no other reason than it would have followed canon of only four freaking episodes before, and wouldn't have crapped all over not just Dean, but Billie as a character and her wonderful scene in Nihilism. I'm left not only baffled that Michael did nothing to Dean, but questioning whether Billie is a lying liar who lies, or who is simply the most moronic reaper in existence who clearly has no idea what the hell she's talking about. How did a reaper so stupid get the gig as Death? Is the cosmic bar really that low?

Short of shoving Dean in the Ma'lak Box, Dean should have spent this episode being pissed off - at Sam, at Cas, and even if not especially at Billie for telling him he had no options when obviously all he had to do was a whole lot of nothing and walk away fine and dandy to spend the rest of his days scarfing lunch meat.

You all have summed up my problem with the writing in this ep better than I ever could.

Not only did Dean show no signs of guilt but he also didn't seem to really care that much about Sam.  He was more worried about his sandwich and his nap.  Now if Dean didn't want to be around Sam and Cas because he was mad at them and mad at himself for listening and he said, that would have made sense,

But it looks like Dean is back on the Valium.

[Myrelle]

9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

But it looks like Dean is back on the Valium

And this is what it looks like and what happens to a even an altogether awesome character/actor when a writer refuses to write anything of substance or even just something(anything!) related to previous canon and especially when that previous canon had such great bearing on ALL of the characters as recently as one, count it, ONE! episode ago.

I can't see how anyone can see the writer of this one as anything other than a bad fanfic writer who wanted Dean out of the way so she could write a Sastiel fic with a side of Nougatnatural thrown in for her boss.

Bah. Just another one that goes onto the refuse pile that S14 has become for this fan.

I can't wait until this season is over and maybe and hopefully we'll get some honest thoughts out of Jensen as to how he genuinely felt about the writing of this season.

[gonzosgirrl]

Dear Meghan Fitzmartin (aka @ megfitz89, aka Andrew Dabb's mouthpiece, aka writer of this hot mess of an episode):

Don't quit your day job. Better yet, go ahead and quit that, too, and take your boss with you.

[ILoveReading]

3 hours ago, Myrelle said:

And this is what it looks like and what happens to a even an altogether awesome character/actor when a writer refuses to write anything of substance or even just something(anything!) related to previous canon and especially when that previous canon had such great bearing on ALL of the characters as recently as one, count it, ONE! episode ago.

I can't see how anyone can see the writer of this one as anything other than a bad fanfic writer who wanted Dean out of the way so she could write a Sastiel fic with a side of Nougatnatural thrown in for her boss.

Bah. Just another one that goes onto the refuse pile that S14 has become for this fan.

I can't wait until this season is over and maybe and hopefully we'll get some honest thoughts out of Jensen as to how he genuinely felt about the writing of this season.

I can't help but compare this to the purge.  (I'm only talking about Jensen's acting not so much the episode itself, so I think its okay to put it here).  Both had very mediocre scripts,and there was very little reference to Deans' mental state in the Purge, but if I had never seen another ep, I would wonder what was up with Dean.  Jensen portrayed him as some who was desperately trying to pretend he was okay and not quite managing it.  I felt Dean's exhaustion and dispair every minute Jensen was on screen in that ep.

Here not so much.  What I got from Dean was mostly annoyance.  He seemed annoyed he couldn't just eat and sleep.  That he had to deal with Jack.  he didn't even try (except for that ridiculous cake scene).  He just drove him to talk to Donatello and literally waited next to the car like an uber driver. 

This had to one of my least favorite performances from Jensen.  Because even if its not in the script, he can put it in there.  The fact that Dean was so flat, I feel like we didn't see anything related to Dean's mental state is because we (general we, of course) weren't meant to.

[catrox14]

45 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I can't help but compare this to the purge.  (I'm only talking about Jensen's acting not so much the episode itself, so I think its okay to put it here).  Both had very mediocre scripts,and there was very little reference to Deans' mental state in the Purge, but if I had never seen another ep, I would wonder what was up with Dean.  Jensen portrayed him as some who was desperately trying to pretend he was okay and not quite managing it.  I felt Dean's exhaustion and dispair every minute Jensen was on screen in that ep.

Here not so much.  What I got from Dean was mostly annoyance.  He seemed annoyed he couldn't just eat and sleep.  That he had to deal with Jack.  he didn't even try (except for that ridiculous cake scene).  He just drove him to talk to Donatello and literally waited next to the car like an uber driver. 

This had to one of my least favorite performances from Jensen.  Because even if its not in the script, he can put it in there.  The fact that Dean was so flat, I feel like we didn't see anything related to Dean's mental state is because we (general we, of course) weren't meant to.

Which is completely unusual for Jensen. He makes deliberate choices for Dean so if he is not disengaged, then I wonder if he decided to play Dean as detached because Michael didn't fully leave Dean? Left some of his grace behind? Or at least another back door. I mean other then Dabb just deciding to scuttle Michael in the most unceremonious manner, why wouldn't Michael still use Dean as his spy especially if he wanted to corrupt Jack?

The is just no reason  for this aside from trying turn this into his Nougatnaural spinoff.

[Res]

Was this episode filmed out of order?

[SueB]

Just now, Res said:

Was this episode filmed out of order?

yes, tonights episode 14.16 was shot before 14.15