S02.E05: All the World Is Birthday Cake

[chaifan]

5 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't think the guards were over-the-top antagonistic. We didn't see anything to indicate that they treated the planet's own Gilliacs harshly or with antagonism. Their antagonism was only directed at Kelly and Bortus, and even most of that was in reaction to Kelly and Bortus being less-than-model inmates.

I'm going to disagree here, as the accommodations were purposely spartan, with no privacy, the food was purposely disgusting, and the guards came in and trashed the barracks under the guise of "security check".  This isn't a temporary prison, this is their permanent home, where they live their entire life, birth to death.  If the only need was to separate Gilliacs from society, they could have them live relatively normal lives on an isolated island.  And it seemed like the Gilliads were on-board with being separated from society, so the prison atmosphere served no purpose other than to punish them simply for being born in the wrong month.

I was really hoping that the tooth thing would break on Talla.  I'm surprised they missed that opportunity.  I like Talla, and I'd go so far to say I like her better than Alara. 

I was surprised by how little attention Bortus got.  For a society that has never seen aliens at all, I'd think people would be a little more surprised by him compared to the rest of the bunch.  I didn't like the escape attempt at all - like others, it left open the huge issue of no repercussions for killing the guards.  But also, what were Kelly & Bortus going to do if they got out?  They have no way to contact the ship.  All that said, I agree with a lot of the criticism of this show, but I also agree with a post above that noted that this is one of those shows that you just watch to enjoy. 

[AngelKitty]

My eyes actually filled with tears of joy along with the crew as they heard the First Contact message so it really didn't matter, to me, about all the nonsensical plot contrivances I can see now that they've been discussed here. 

[shapeshifter]

50 minutes ago, chaifan said:

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't think the guards were over-the-top antagonistic. 

I'm going to disagree here,

Me too, especially WRT the "Gilliac-trash" trash-talking nazi,
and WRT:

51 minutes ago, chaifan said:

. . . the food was purposely disgusting . . .

I had to pretend (and hope the prop really was) chocolate Jell-O Whip 'n Chill.

[jaigurudeva]

25 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I was really hoping that the tooth thing would break on Talla.  I'm surprised they missed that opportunity.  I like Talla, and I'd go so far to say I like her better than Alara. 

I don't think Xelayans are any more indestructible as other humanoid species, they're just comparatively stronger because they're adapted to and born in high-gravity, and so have "super strength" against materials and in environments adapted to lesser gravity. I did get something of a sinister vibe from Talla, with her "punch now, ask questions later" thing. I've already deleted the episode, but when she was strangling the doctor who was going to extract their tooth samples and Ed stopped her, she seemed loathe to let him go, and she said something like, "You're lucky this time." I think her propensity to violence is going to come up again. (I agree with the rest of your post 100%!)

Kelly and Bortus' genius plan was, "How can we stop these people whose prejudice believes us to be violent, homicidal criminals? I know! Let's be violent, homicidal criminals!" The astrological belief system doesn't really hold up. I can get behind that, through cultural conditioning, the other signs might be self-fulfilling prophecies. If you're indoctrinated into the global religion and are told all your life that you're going to be a great leader because of your star sign, get all the opportunities and education to track you along that career path, then you'll probably end up a great leader. But have no other signs committed violence or crime in their society, especially when it's still a capitalistic society and thus open to currency competition and wealth inequality, corporate greed, homelessness and poverty? Further still, the Giliacs in the concentration camps said that no one has ever tried to break out before, because they accept the dogma that they're inherently worthy of incarceration. They've passively accepted their lot in life, their history is 100% nonviolence, and yet the rest of society hasn't caught on that Giliacs aren't acting according to prescribed belief? With a track record like that, where are the skeptics and atheists in this society?

[Sandman]

21 hours ago, marketdoctor said:

1.  Ed invites them to the Galaxy, not the Union. 

I thought this implied something about the chain of command, as well, rather than anything about Ed's personal reservations. Ed may not have the authority to offer them membership in the Union. This suggests to me that some thought was given to issues of hierarchy, but perhaps not enough.

The Federation's rule about non-interference with other civilizations until they achieve warp drive suddenly makes a lot more sense to me; a degree of technological parity might lessen the chance of encountering a superstitious and backward culture who emit an interstellar message more or less by accident.  

3 hours ago, Dobian said:

... not of some primitive society but a fully advanced 21st century-level civilization.

But I think that was MacFarlane's point, such as it was: This planet's technology was no more advanced than ours, and we are no more prepared -- suspicious, xenophobic and, yes, superstitious as we are -- to deal with a truly alien civilization. It's a ham-fisted sort of point, sloppily developed, but not without a degree of validity.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Sandman

[Sandman]

16 minutes ago, jaigurudeva said:

Further still, the Giliacs in the concentration camps said that no one has ever tried to break out before, because they accept the dogma that they're inherently worthy of incarceration. They've passively accepted their lot in life, their history is 100% nonviolence, and yet the rest of society hasn't caught on that Giliacs aren't acting according to prescribed belief? With a track record like that, where are the skeptics and atheists in this society?

I thought about this, too. It's one thing to have an ingrained belief about self-worth become a self-fulfilling prophecy, but what happens when none of the purportedly incorrigibly violent population actually conforms to that expectation? Is none of the science or public policy on this planet based on the collection of evidence? (Original Recipe ST sort of dealt with this in the episode "The Cloud-Minders," but there, the underclass did mostly conform to the violent stereotype ascribed to them, but only because they were being environmentally poisoned.)

Edited January 26, 2019 by Sandman

[Latverian Diplomat]

On 1/25/2019 at 12:23 AM, HunterHunted said:

It is a little weird, but these shows never spend enough time in these cultures to figure out if there's a solid reason for that name. Jupiter, Saturn, Mars, Venus and Mercury are visible with the naked eye. The Romans named them after their gods thousands of years ago. Perhaps in their mythology, Reger 1 is where their version of the titanomachy happened. The losing gods are imprisoned on Reger 1; the winning gods went to Reger 2 with all of the mortals to eventually become the civilization we saw.

 

For that matter, I'm never sure why the magic universal translator doesn't translate what they're saying to "Welcome to earth" or "Welcome to the ground". That would probably be the literal translation. Maybe there is special "code" to override that literal a translation. 

[ganesh]

I'm surprised that the Orville is a high enough class ship to be able to make first contact, although if they're exploratory maybe that's the point. I did like the refreshing enthusiasm of everyone.

The plot was predictable, but I will give them credit for taking in a somewhat interesting direction with the astrology. I sound tepid, but I did enjoy the show and the crew having to deal with Ted Danson's order not to interfere. 

[jaigurudeva]

22 hours ago, Nellise said:

I was really disappointed in this episode since Seth wrote it and barely any of it made any logical sense. Really did feel like Seth wanted to make a comment about Astrology and never really thought much else about the plot.

I think the message isn't about astrology, it's about how terrible and dumb it is to prejudge, persecute, and condemn a group of people based on something they were born with, whether that be their astrological sign, or their race, sex, gender, or nationality.

On 1/24/2019 at 8:15 PM, benteen said:

Doesn't Union policy suggest anywhere that you might want to do some, I don't know, RESEARCH before you make contact with an unknown and primitive (by Union standards) people?  Though from what I've seen of the Union, I wouldn't count on it. 

I was waiting for Ed's hand to start melting after he shook hands with the leader. "Oh, by the way, we sweat hydrofluoric acid, that isn't a problem for you aliens, is it?" After that didn't happen, I expected during the feast it would be discovered that what might be a delicacy to the Regorians is deadly poison to (most of) the crew (with Bortus obviously enjoying the meal seasoned with arsenic and washed down with mercury). You should know more about a species and culture you intend to make first contact with other than, "Can we breathe their air?" If they still have access to Kool and the Gang, they must have seen Signs. 

Also, where is Isaac? He only had a few brief scenes in Dr. Claire's episode, and a line in this one. You'd think he'd be one of the first to go down to scan, study, and catalog a new sentient species, since that's his whole raison d'être. I also just plain need more deadpan robot humor, he's one of my favorite characters!

[ganesh]

17 minutes ago, jaigurudeva said:

I think the message isn't about astrology, it's about how terrible and dumb it is to prejudge, persecute, and condemn a group of people based on something they were born with, whether that be their astrological sign, or their race, sex, gender, or nationality.

I think it's a cousin to the religion episode. I did like how they had fairly advanced technology but used it for astrology. They were inquisitive enough to send out a message, but how about a satellite? I mean, we have several. 

[Chyromaniac]

First, an observation: I don’t know if anyone else here follows Critical Role, but I think Palicki would make a great live action Beauregard.

On 1/25/2019 at 12:08 PM, Chaos Theory said:

This episode was a fun first contact episode that does what science fiction first contact episodes are supposed to do.  Make a point about society but then have the crew just go back to crewing.

I guess my problem with the episode is that I don’t know what point it’s trying to make. A society driven by astrology is an interesting premise- but when the solution is just to throw an additional layer of BS on to their beliefs, then what exactly are we saying here?

I think the closest we get to a “message” is when Kelly and Bortus decide to break out- the point being that the system has transformed them into the very things they were accused of being. Which, great- you’ve just turned two main characters into Rambos.  But I don’t know if the show even supports that, considering that practically all of the Gilliacs (sp?) in the prison are sheep.

 I think a stronger message would have been that the circumstances of one’s birth should not determine their opportunities. At the very least, they could’ve pointed out that the actual sociopaths on that planet were the ones who called in the SWAT team in their dinner guests. I suppose this whole thing just feels like a missed opportunity.

[ganesh]

But what were they going to do? They can't not try to escape.

[Sandman]

38 minutes ago, jaigurudeva said:

I was waiting for Ed's hand to start melting after he shook hands with the leader. "Oh, by the way, we sweat hydrofluoric acid, that isn't a problem for you aliens, is it?" After that didn't happen, I expected during the feast it would be discovered that what might be a delicacy to the Regorians is deadly poison to (most of) the crew (with Bortus obviously enjoying the meal seasoned with arsenic and washed down with mercury). You should know more about a species and culture you intend to make first contact with other than, "Can we breathe their air?" If they still have access to Kool and the Gang, they must have seen Signs. 

I have now officially laughed at this post more than I ever have at the show. Thank you.

[shapeshifter]

39 MINUTES AGO, CHYROMANIAC SAID:

I think the closest we get to a “message” is when Kelly and Bortus decide to break out- the point being that the system has transformed them into the very things they were accused of being. Which, great- you’ve just turned two main characters into Rambos. But I don’t know if the show even supports that, considering that practically all of the Gilliacs (sp?) in the prison are sheep.

Plus, Kelly and Bortus seemed better trained to be violent than the Reegorians. But that would have worked to make the point if there had been a little more clarity WRT Kelley and Bortus's motivations to use violence or something. It was there in the script, now that you point it out, @Chyromaniac, but I didn't notice it until you mentioned it. Maybe it's just because I tend to mentally tune out hand-to-hand combat and shootouts and spaceship dogfights on TV shows as filler.

 

39 MINUTES AGO, CHYROMANIAC SAID:

 I think a stronger message would have been that the circumstances of one’s birth should not determine their opportunities. At the very least, they could’ve pointed out that the actual sociopaths on that planet were the ones who called in the SWAT team in their dinner guests. I suppose this whole thing just feels like a missed opportunity

They came close to making the point about equal opportunity regardless of birthright with the brief bit about the Union being a non-monetary society. Maybe Isaac or Bortus could have drawn more attention to the differences/parallels with a throwaway line.

[Bort]

1 hour ago, jaigurudeva said:

I think the message isn't about astrology, it's about how terrible and dumb it is to prejudge, persecute, and condemn a group of people based on something they were born with, whether that be their astrological sign, or their race, sex, gender, or nationality.

I found the prison camps to be very reminiscent of the Japanese camps in the US during WWII -- not to eradicate them, like the Nazi concentration camps, but keep them segregated from the rest of society.

[Sandman]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I had to pretend (and hope the prop really was) chocolate Jell-O Whip 'n Chill.

Man alive, I'm suddenly glad I hadn't noticed this!

[chaifan]

4 hours ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

For that matter, I'm never sure why the magic universal translator doesn't translate what they're saying to "Welcome to earth" or "Welcome to the ground". That would probably be the literal translation. Maybe there is special "code" to override that literal a translation. 

It would be like someone from Italy coming to the US and meeting a woman named Bella.  Even though the Italian knows it translates to "beautiful woman", they also know it's a proper name, so they're not going to just go around calling her "beautiful woman", but Bella, which is her name.  Although it would be funny for there to be a character named Chip and everyone with a universal translator automatically calls him Small Piece of Something Broken Off of Something Else.

As to Earth = Terra = Ground = Dirt, I'm a bit surprised every home planet out there isn't called the equivalent of Ground.

[ganesh]

What I thought was interesting was that even though they were a 'sub warp' society, it seemed like they had a planetary government. 

[aemom]

On 2019-01-25 at 11:22 AM, Driad said:

I've never delivered a baby, but I know the mother shouldn't push until her cervix is sufficiently dilated.  Did Kelly even check that?  This is assuming the anatomy is similar, give or take the silver face decorations.

This freaked me the hell out.

She had only been in labor for 2 hours and Kelly comes along and just tells her to push?

That took me right out of the show along with when the residents of the planet called it Rigel 2.

[shapeshifter]

45 minutes ago, AEMom said:

On 1/25/2019 at 10:22 AM, Driad said:

I've never delivered a baby, but I know the mother shouldn't push until her cervix is sufficiently dilated.  Did Kelly even check that?  This is assuming the anatomy is similar, give or take the silver face decorations.

This freaked me the hell out.

She had only been in labor for 2 hours and Kelly comes along and just tells her to push?

That took me right out of the show . . .

I managed to get back into the show only because the actress doing the "pushing" actually did make realistic pushing sounds. 
But, seriously, 2 hours? Why even have that in the script? Is that supposed to mean something? Maybe the people on that planet labor for precisely 2 hours (never mind how many minutes apart the contractions are, I guess), and I guess Kelly read that somewhere? Are we supposed to guess that?

 

45 minutes ago, AEMom said:

That took me right out of the show along with when the residents of the planet called it Rigel 2.

I've finally come up with an excuse for the naming convention of their planet: Since they're obsessed with astrology, the number sequence of their planet from their sun star could be important to them.

[Jacks-Son]

On 1/24/2019 at 8:32 PM, Ottis said:

actually was going to post the opposite. I don’t know if her people smoke, but she sounds like she has a several-pack-a-day habit. It’s off putting. 

I liked this episode. But I don’t know exactly what it was about. I thought it was going to be a metaphor for religion IRL, but it wasn’t that tight. I did like the respect for local laws. Though i don’t know why the people of Reger 2 think Gilliacs are violent when the camp was pretty quiet. 

More 80s crap at the end, with technology that should have been long forgotten. 

I've only watched the episode once so I haven't been able to dissect the plot's points, both strong and weak.  I'll go on record that I absolutely hated this episode.  It's the worse Orville episode, for me, yet.  I found the whole thing ridiculous.  Let's place ourselves in a similar situation:  You travel to a new country, you've never been there before, nor have they ever seen anyone like you before.  They accept that you're new and unfamiliar with their culture.  They're eager to show you their country and advancements.  You're in awe of their similarity to your own culture and country.  You make an innocent remark in idle chit-chat and suddenly you're deemed. a dangerous criminal, arrested, and thrown into a prison.  In no way, does this make any sense.  My country, when trying to extract me, after they were told it's impossible, my country says, "We don't want to start an incident, so we'll just have to let it pass".  Again, "In no way, does this make any sense".  

I thought the episode was sloppy and cheesy.  The special effects were retreads of existing shots, the supposed NEW world of first contact, looks like any city in California, palm trees, mountains and all.  Too cheap for green screens.

Some of the jokes were funny, but they were based on repeats of already aired jokes.  Bortus wants to be the star of his own birthday celebration; Gordon hasn't learned to filter his mouth and lets his internal dialogue spew forth; the new Louie is a badass and is played by a coarse, ill-mannered Xyleyan who managed to make me miss Alara even more than I  already did.  Dickhead McTrunkFace is still one of the worse characters on the show. I also missed Issac.  It's bad when you miss a robot.  The saving grace of the show were John's return to the screen, and Kelly's Bobby "Mockingbird" Morse moments. (D.C.'s Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.)

I suppose I can rewatch the episode so that I can "Get it", but I just don't want to.  It was hard enough watching this shit the first time.

Did I mention I don't like the new addition?  Alara had a quiet strength and she frequently lamented the fact that her physical prowess prevented her from having a love life.  This woman revels in the fact that if she has a problem with you, she's more than likely to simply punch you in the face.  No thanks.  And yes, she DOES sound like my old aunt who smoked a pack of Viceroys a day.

[ganesh]

4 hours ago, AEMom said:

She had only been in labor for 2 hours and Kelly comes along and just tells her to push?

That's tv pregnancies though. That's what you get. It's a plot point. 

[MissLucas]

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I managed to get back into the show only because the actress doing the "pushing" actually did make realistic pushing sounds. 
But, seriously, 2 hours? Why even have that in the script? Is that supposed to mean something? Maybe the people on that planet labor for precisely 2 hours (never mind how many minutes apart the contractions are, I guess), and I guess Kelly read that somewhere? Are we supposed to guess that?

That's assuming a member of the crew actually bothered to do some research - which sounds even more fantastic than space-travel. Rather put Occam's razor to good use: the writers just threw that in because it sounded cool.

[Raja]

8 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

I've only watched the episode once so I haven't been able to dissect the plot's points, both strong and weak.  I'll go on record that I absolutely hated this episode.  It's the worse Orville episode, for me, yet.  I found the whole thing ridiculous.  Let's place ourselves in a similar situation:  You travel to a new country, you've never been there before, nor have they ever seen anyone like you before.  They accept that you're new and unfamiliar with their culture.  They're eager to show you their country and advancements.  You're in awe of their similarity to your own culture and country.  You make an innocent remark in idle chit-chat and suddenly you're deemed. a dangerous criminal, arrested, and thrown into a prison.  In no way, does this make any sense.  My country, when trying to extract me, after they were told it's impossible, my country says, "We don't want to start an incident, so we'll just have to let it pass".  Again, "In no way, does this make any sense".  

 

It was a riff off of a season one  Star Trek The Next Generation episode  where in a land of anything goes, except in a randomly occurring enforcement zones, a 15 year old Wesley Crusher instead of losing his virginity was playing tag you're it and stepped on the grass and the Federation was willing to see him executed for his crime.

[Deskisamess]

I've not read all of the comments, so excuse any repeat thoughts. I thought this episode had holes you could fly a space shuttle through. The biggest one imo was the ending.  We are to believe that the people born under that star sign have been locked up since birth, with no education, and dismal care. But the camps are all closed with the appearance of the star. How would that play out in reality planet wide?

The idea that you'd just fly in an land on a planet because they sent out a message is preposterous. No study of the planet or the "people", no knowledge of customs or laws? What intelligent species would do that?

So this planet has no crime or people acting violent? And the Federation/Union does nothing when two of their own are tossed into prison? "Too bad, we lose more crewmen that way...". Seriously?

Wouldn't different planets have different constellations? 

We loved the first season of this show. That feeling is fading fast ...it's been too dark, and lacking the humor and satire SM is usually so good at. He is taking himself too seriously imo. Episodes 3, 4, and 5 have been too menacing and dark.

[shapeshifter]

13 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

I thought the episode was sloppy and cheesy.  The special effects were retreads of existing shots, the supposed NEW world of first contact, looks like any city in California, palm trees, mountains and all.  Too cheap for green screens.

Now that you mention it, I bet they blew through a couple of episodes worth of special effects budget on the Fairwell-to-Alara/Halston Sage/Seth's girlfriend episode. For example, the unicorn-like creature served no purpose beyond a going-away-present to Halston.

 

19 minutes ago, Deskisamess said:

So this planet has no crime or people acting violent?

That could have been an interesting plot point to explore (violent people not born under the sign of Gilliac). There was certainly a lot of animosity exuding from them. Isaac could have commented on it.

Edited January 27, 2019 by shapeshifter

[Emma9]

52 minutes ago, Deskisamess said:

We are to believe that the people born under that star sign have been locked up since birth, with no education, and dismal care. But the camps are all closed with the appearance of the star. How would that play out in reality planet wide?

That's the kind of storytelling I want to see.

I know, it's a comedy show and I should just watch and laugh, as many have said. And I have no problem with the lack of coherence and follow-up with the aspects that are obviously done just for the lulz.

But The Orville's flaw, if you can call it that, is that it actually does get creative with the worldbuilding in a way that makes you want to ponder it and find out more. That's when it's frustrating.

[italianguy626]

In regards to letting all the Gilliacs go all at once, since this society has done everything in their power to prevent Gilliac births, I just assumed that there wouldn't be very many of them. As it was, the prison camp was minuscule in terms of population compared with the vastness of the city the crew flew over at the beginning.

However, because there was such a deep seated cultural revulsion to those born under the sign would mean that not everyone - and probably the vast majority - would simply not accept them back into the general population so easily. I could see a form of Jim Crow type laws targeting Gilliacs being instituted by the Rigelians.

[Jacks-Son]

7 hours ago, Raja said:

15 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

 

It was a riff off of a season one  Star Trek The Next Generation episode  where in a land of anything goes, except in a randomly occurring enforcement zones, a 15 year old Wesley Crusher instead of losing his virginity was playing tag you're it and stepped on the grass and the Federation was willing to see him executed for his crime.

Isn't this like Archer's dog,  Porthos,  who peed on the sacred tree and was deemed a menace,  forcing T'Pol to express her disappointment during First Contact? 

[jumper sage]

On 1/26/2019 at 10:04 AM, shapeshifter said:

On 1/26/2019 at 9:28 AM, jumper sage said:

I imagine them all either high as kites or with a hangover.

The writers or the characters? LOL Or both?

Both!

[CoyoteBlue]

On 1/26/2019 at 4:05 PM, jaigurudeva said:

I think the message isn't about astrology, it's about how terrible and dumb it is to prejudge, persecute, and condemn a group of people based on something they were born with, whether that be their astrological sign, or their race, sex, gender, or nationality.

It's a blatantly obvious parallel to "Those violent rapist Mexicans need to be rounded up, put in camps and have their children taken away for the safety of all the rest of us!"

And also obviously, it reflects back on the the US's Japanese internment camps and Germany's concentration camps of WWII. Pick a group of people, blame them for all the woes of the country/world rather than address the actual complex issues and then, if they're lucky, just lock them up indefinitely. If they aren't lucky, kill them. We could just ship the Mexicans/Kelly&Bortus back to Mexico/the Orville, but how can we show what tough enforcers we are that way?

[Ubiquitous]

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 12:08 PM, Joimiaroxeu said:

Did they not have contraception on this nutty planet? Seems like it'd be easier to avoid creating any pregnancies during the time frame that would lead to the baby being born during the wrong month. Or did I miss a line about contraception being banned?

I think there was a throw-away line about them taking precautions but things don't always work the way they want...

 

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 1:27 PM, rmontro said:

I agree with some others that the solution to the whole situation seemed a little too pat.  I'm surprised they acted so quickly to the new star in the sky, but obviously they put a huge emphasis on astronomy, so I guess it makes sense.

Did you mean astrology?

 

On ‎1‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 10:15 AM, aquarian1 said:

Yes, they do.  I assumed the technology to date the teeth was like carbon-dating, but much more precise.  

I assumed it didn't work on the teeth so they all turned up negative.

[Deskisamess]

Quote

And also obviously, it reflects back on the the US's Japanese internment camps and Germany's concentration camps of WWII.

You can't compare the two. While what was done to Japanese Americans during WW2 was nothing like what the Nazi's did. The purpose and motivations were totally different.

I'm not defending the internment camps, but it isn't right to compare them to mass  genocide. Many in government at the time were vocal in speaking out against them, including FDR's own wife. The US also formally apologized and made monetary compensation to those interned. (Years later of course)

[Charlesman]

I am 99% sure that the landing area where they did the first contact is the quad at CSUN, and the massive building was the same one used as Starfleet Academy in the JJ rebootverse. 

[Raja]

23 minutes ago, Charlesman said:

I am 99% sure that the landing area where they did the first contact is the quad at CSUN, and the massive building was the same one used as Starfleet Academy in the JJ rebootverse. 

Oviatt Library was used long before it was completed or the other half rebuilt after Northridge Earthquake way back in the original Battlestar Galatica as a Cylon capitol. 

[Miles]

Star Treks entry criteria of a civilisation achieving warp drive really seems a lot better than the Orivelle's, because of shit like this.

Also good thing this isn't Star trek, I couldn't see the admiralty leaving crew members behind, just because it's a first contact situation and it still seems weird on this show. That doesn't seem like something such an organisation would do.

 

That a society based on astrology would have projected their believes onto aliens seems far fetched. Astrology is the believe that the position of the stars in relation to earth influences things on earth. So even astrologists don't think that our signs influence life on other planets the same way or at the same time they do on earth. And I saw no indication that this planets believe system should have worked any different. So Kelly and Bortus should have been excempt from their strange believes and laws.

The Orville crew should have at least argued that Kelly is a Scorpio (grabbed random sign) and not a gilliac.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Miles

[Yeah No]

On 1/26/2019 at 10:25 AM, shapeshifter said:

one more thing. Is that a model of Wilbur and Orville's Kitty Hawk on Ed's desk?:

I actually think that's the Wright Flyer 3.  I have that very same model.  My father gave it to me on the 100th anniversary of Kitty Hawk.

[Chyromaniac]

I thought it was weird that both Finn and the alien doc kept referring to what was happening at the hospital as “c-section,” given its etymology. I actually paused the show to look it up, and apparently there basically is no other way to describe that procedure- so I guess the translator tech gets a pass on that one.

[ganesh]

We actually don't know how long the Union had been around. It could be their first 35 years which could account for a lot of this. 

If the Orville is cleared to make first contact, then that explains to me why the Krill might want to infiltrate the ship. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 1/26/2019 at 9:59 AM, Dobian said:

Ed could do whatever he wanted, it was his command and there was no admiral physically there to stop him.  In real life, commanders in war time do things all the time that go against or potentially go against their superiors, and just deal with the consequences later.  There are many examples of this from WW!!, Korea, and Vietnam.  And yes, people's lives have been saved because a commander went against protocol.  Commanders don't care about the potential ramifications on future treaties and trade deals.  They are not politicians, their responsibility is to their crew or unit.

Where did the aliens land when they came here?  If they landed in North Korea their experience would be vastly different than if they landed in the U.S. for example.

If the aliens did commit some perceived crime in this country, the normal rules wouldn't apply to them, as our political leaders would be thinking big picture with how to deal with them and the potential far-reaching ramifications.  Even when the Salem witch hysteria was happening, the governor and leaders in Boston knew it was a load of crap and wanted to put a lid on it.  The myopic "they're staying locked up and we don't want to have anything to do with you aliens anymore!" response from this leader was both childish and nonsensical coming from the leader not of some primitive society but a fully advanced 21st century-level civilization.

I've had a thirty year long career so there is nothing whatsoever you can explain to me about the motivations for working.  Lots of people love their jobs but don't love the stress that comes with it and don't want to do it for as many hours and as many years as they have to.  Removing money from the equation doesn't change the fact that people have to work to keep society running, unless you want to argue that most things in the future are automated.  But you still need people for certain things, and if you want to go down the path of A.I. taking over all the jobs then there is the whole other issue about A.I. sentience and their rights, humans getting displaced, etc.  Most sci fi shows only touch on these topics occasionally.  The whole, "we just don't need money anymore because we are so evolved" is just a whitewash, and very shallowly explained.  They did the same thing on TNG.

Ed is limited not just by the Union-imposed rules but his own internalization of them. We've seen the crew flout the rules when they thought it was the right thing to do, and damn the consequences. Ed apparently agrees that it is worse to run roughshod over a more primitive culture than it is to risk Kelly and Bortus's lives.

In terms of the aliens-in-the-real-world scenario, how it would play out might depend on numerous factors. Even if we say they landed in America, it might be very different if they landed in a rural, urban or suburban part, under what type of presidential administration (or even at what point in a presidential administration), if they were aliens who look basically like humans, etc. I don't think it far-fetched, though, that there would be a vocal contingent expecting the aliens to abide by our rules and our criminal justice norms, especially if the aliens themselves professed to believe in diverse cultures and to have respect for our own.

In the Union and the Federation, they have apparently mastered a way to produce food, shelter and other basic necessities at no or little cost through AI, replicators and synthesizers. So no, there is apparently no need to have people work jobs to maintain basic needs, and people are free to work jobs because they want to. 

On 1/26/2019 at 11:57 AM, chaifan said:

I'm going to disagree here, as the accommodations were purposely spartan, with no privacy, the food was purposely disgusting, and the guards came in and trashed the barracks under the guise of "security check".  This isn't a temporary prison, this is their permanent home, where they live their entire life, birth to death.  If the only need was to separate Gilliacs from society, they could have them live relatively normal lives on an isolated island.  And it seemed like the Gilliads were on-board with being separated from society, so the prison atmosphere served no purpose other than to punish them simply for being born in the wrong month.

Obviously, the accommodations in the internment camp are not pleasant. But that is a different point than whether the guards were over-the-top antagonistic. The search for contraband seemed about what one would expect from a search for contraband. There weren't scenes of bullying the typical inmates, or initiating violence against them, or even talking trash about them. 

[ganesh]

I think it's a little different that aliens landing here because their society seems homogeneous planet-wide. 

I think Ed not just going in blazing to get them out was the right course even if Admiral Ted Danson wasn't actually there though. What if another ship was sent to follow up with an invitation to the Union? They would have been found out. 

[Dobian]

On ‎1‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 8:44 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Ed is limited not just by the Union-imposed rules but his own internalization of them. We've seen the crew flout the rules when they thought it was the right thing to do, and damn the consequences. Ed apparently agrees that it is worse to run roughshod over a more primitive culture than it is to risk Kelly and Bortus's lives.

In terms of the aliens-in-the-real-world scenario, how it would play out might depend on numerous factors. Even if we say they landed in America, it might be very different if they landed in a rural, urban or suburban part, under what type of presidential administration (or even at what point in a presidential administration), if they were aliens who look basically like humans, etc. I don't think it far-fetched, though, that there would be a vocal contingent expecting the aliens to abide by our rules and our criminal justice norms, especially if the aliens themselves professed to believe in diverse cultures and to have respect for our own.

In the Union and the Federation, they have apparently mastered a way to produce food, shelter and other basic necessities at no or little cost through AI, replicators and synthesizers. So no, there is apparently no need to have people work jobs to maintain basic needs, and people are free to work jobs because they want to. 

Obviously, the accommodations in the internment camp are not pleasant. But that is a different point than whether the guards were over-the-top antagonistic. The search for contraband seemed about what one would expect from a search for contraband. There weren't scenes of bullying the typical inmates, or initiating violence against them, or even talking trash about them. 

Ed abandoning Kelly and Bortus because of abstract political ideals would have been out of character for him, and if they died because of it I could see him resigning from the fleet out of guilt because he wouldn't be able to live with himself.  When push comes to shove, people put their loved ones above all else, especially in this case where the antagonists are so clearly off-base.

The scenario you discuss is about aliens living among us, as is explored in movies like District 9.  That's not what this is.  This is about alien diplomats on a visit.  Diplomats in our own world are dealt with very differently and treated by a different standard in host countries than immigrants who live there.

Sure, I agree we might have a future where technology allows us to produce everything everyone needs.  But that does not change human nature, and greed, power, and corruption will still be prevalent, it will just manifest a little differently.  You will still have inequality and oppression as this technology is controlled by governments or powerful corporate interests.  Nothing is ever simple and utopia is just a fantasy.  And even on the lowest level, people working jobs just because they want to will still have to deal with the same things like bad bosses, deadline pressures, overwork, and job stress just like they do now.  Governments might even force people into work when there is a shortage of people willing to take on jobs that require an actual human (or A.I. who would also have rights and this opens up another can of worms). The organizations who employ them will just find new ways to maintain control over them since they can't do it with money.  Doesn't mean they would all be bad, but I think abuse would still happen like it does today.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Dobian

[AnimeMania]

On 1/25/2019 at 9:00 PM, shapeshifter said:

Is it just me, or does Seth MacFarlane's face look like someone has talked him into some unnecessary cosmetic treatments with undesirable results?

It is his eyes, they are very droopy.

On 1/28/2019 at 11:44 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Obviously, the accommodations in the internment camp are not pleasant. But that is a different point than whether the guards were over-the-top antagonistic. The search for contraband seemed about what one would expect from a search for contraband. There weren't scenes of bullying the typical inmates, or initiating violence against them, or even talking trash about them. 

Why would they need to search for contraband, everybody who was there has been there since the day they were born, they have no contact with the outside world.

[Bort]

1 hour ago, AnimeMania said:

Why would they need to search for contraband, everybody who was there has been there since the day they were born, they have no contact with the outside world.

Maybe they’re looking for shivs made out of toothbrush handles. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, Dobian said:

Ed abandoning Kelly and Bortus because of abstract political ideals would have been out of character for him, and if they died because of it I could see him resigning from the fleet out of guilt because he wouldn't be able to live with himself.  When push comes to shove, people put their loved ones above all else, especially in this case where the antagonists are so clearly off-base.

The scenario you discuss is about aliens living among us, as is explored in movies like District 9.  That's not what this is.  This is about alien diplomats on a visit.  Diplomats in our own world are dealt with very differently and treated by a different standard in host countries than immigrants who live there.

Sure, I agree we might have a future where technology allows us to produce everything everyone needs.  But that does not change human nature, and greed, power, and corruption will still be prevalent, it will just manifest a little differently.  You will still have inequality and oppression as this technology is controlled by governments or powerful corporate interests.  Nothing is ever simple and utopia is just a fantasy.  And even on the lowest level, people working jobs just because they want to will still have to deal with the same things like bad bosses, deadline pressures, overwork, and job stress just like they do now.  Governments might even force people into work when there is a shortage of people willing to take on jobs that require an actual human (or A.I. who would also have rights and this opens up another can of worms). The organizations who employ them will just find new ways to maintain control over them since they can't do it with money.  Doesn't mean they would all be bad, but I think abuse would still happen like it does today.

In at least one other case, the Planet Reddit episode, Ed was potentially willing to let John be lobotomized rather than using force to free him. So I don't think that it can be said that abandoning Kelly and Bortus because of orders/unwillingness to interfere with a primitive culture is out of character.

The scenario I put forth was parallel to the one here: aliens making first contact commit a crime against our laws. There was nothing about it that had anything inherently to do with aliens living amongst us. Yes, diplomats get a lot of leeway. But I'm saying that there would be people who would not care about the diplomatic aspect or the power disparity aspect depending on the nature of the crime. YMMV.

I think that a lot of what we might currently think of as "human nature" would probably change if a) we had the wherewithal to meet everyone's basic food and shelter needs without breaking a sweat and b) if we were exposed to cultures from other planets. I'd speculate that a lot of the downsides of jobs that people presently experience would fall by the wayside under those scenarios. 

Why be a bad boss or work for one when you don't have to? Why worry about deadline pressure when you can walk away from a job at any time and still have your physical needs be met? 

The answer talked about in this episode is that people work for their reputation rather than money, and that hypothetically would lend itself to curbing a lot of downsides that exist where making money is a primary goal of a job.

2 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Why would they need to search for contraband, everybody who was there has been there since the day they were born, they have no contact with the outside world.

Well, we don't know how much contact the internees have with the outside world.

But even assuming for argument's sake that they aren't allowed visitors or packages or anything, they a) can conspire with guards to get drugs/alcohol, weapons, subversive literature, and anything else that might be considered contraband and b) can use materials in and around camp to create such things. 

As I understand it, real-life prisoners can be creative in those ways.

[Raja]

With a one government world why would conventions for diplomats exist?

[ketose]

9 hours ago, Dobian said:

Ed abandoning Kelly and Bortus because of abstract political ideals would have been out of character for him, and if they died because of it I could see him resigning from the fleet out of guilt because he wouldn't be able to live with himself.  When push comes to shove, people put their loved ones above all else, especially in this case where the antagonists are so clearly off-base.

The scenario you discuss is about aliens living among us, as is explored in movies like District 9.  That's not what this is.  This is about alien diplomats on a visit.  Diplomats in our own world are dealt with very differently and treated by a different standard in host countries than immigrants who live there.

Sure, I agree we might have a future where technology allows us to produce everything everyone needs.  But that does not change human nature, and greed, power, and corruption will still be prevalent, it will just manifest a little differently.  You will still have inequality and oppression as this technology is controlled by governments or powerful corporate interests.  Nothing is ever simple and utopia is just a fantasy.  And even on the lowest level, people working jobs just because they want to will still have to deal with the same things like bad bosses, deadline pressures, overwork, and job stress just like they do now.  Governments might even force people into work when there is a shortage of people willing to take on jobs that require an actual human (or A.I. who would also have rights and this opens up another can of worms). The organizations who employ them will just find new ways to maintain control over them since they can't do it with money.  Doesn't mean they would all be bad, but I think abuse would still happen like it does today.

My standby for this is "where are all the janitors?" I was a janitor in my younger days and I did it for the money, not for my pride or reputation. Rather than the astrology stuff, I'd like to see the Orville meet an advanced society based on free market principles, but they would probably be evil as well. Actually, they'd be the Ferengi, who were neutered on DS9 and eventually became democratic socialists.

[Dobian]

5 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think that a lot of what we might currently think of as "human nature" would probably change if a) we had the wherewithal to meet everyone's basic food and shelter needs without breaking a sweat and b) if we were exposed to cultures from other planets. I'd speculate that a lot of the downsides of jobs that people presently experience would fall by the wayside under those scenarios. 

Why be a bad boss or work for one when you don't have to? Why worry about deadline pressure when you can walk away from a job at any time and still have your physical needs be met? 

Human nature doesn't change, that's why it's called "nature".

I explained it.  You operate under the assumption that people won't have to work and everything will be taken care of in this future nanny state utopia.  But it's fantasy.  Many people will still need to work but for different reasons, and there will still be powerful interests that run things and have power and influence over people's lives, even in a society without money.

[TVSpectator]

On 1/27/2019 at 8:52 AM, Raja said:

It was a riff off of a season one  Star Trek The Next Generation episode  where in a land of anything goes, except in a randomly occurring enforcement zones, a 15 year old Wesley Crusher instead of losing his virginity was playing tag you're it and stepped on the grass and the Federation was willing to see him executed for his crime.

But it was Wesley though. Losing him would make the audience really happy. 

7 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Why would they need to search for contraband, everybody who was there has been there since the day they were born, they have no contact with the outside world.

 

My guess there is some kind of commissary at that camp. Or maybe there is a section of the population that feels guilty/sad for the people who are locked up and give them stuff through donations?

On 1/26/2019 at 8:32 PM, chaifan said:

 

As to Earth = Terra = Ground = Dirt, I'm a bit surprised every home planet out there isn't called the equivalent of Ground.

 

How do we not know that Rigel actually does mean ground in the alien language?

[Bort]

1 hour ago, ketose said:

My standby for this is "where are all the janitors?" I was a janitor in my younger days and I did it for the money, not for my pride or reputation.

I would assume automated cleaning machines. That hopefully work better than this one.