S04.E10: The Children

[bunnyblue]

 

Ned wasn't going to oust the secret, he did oust it and (as Hand) proclaimed Stannis Robert's rightful heir.  He had no proof so Joffrey charged him with treason for supporting Stannis.

 

Aha, thank you! I remember that now. Ned really was too noble & stupid to survive in that viper's den, King's Landing.

[phoenix780]

Secondly, recall that in episode six, when he's bargaining with Jaime in order to let Tyrion live and have Jaime quit the Kingsguard, one of the conditions is that Jaime has to get married and father "CHILDREN NAMED LANNISTER".  Why would he say that if he didn't already suspect/know about the children NOT named Lannister.

 

Maybe because of the whole bastard issue and how they don't get the last name?  So it was to stipulate that not only would he have to get married (presumably to a woman of Tywin's choosing, though that wasn't said far as I remember), he'd have to produce an heir with that woman.  He couldn't just go getting anyone pregnant and calling it the heir.

[taanja]

 

Word. My personal motto is "They ain't dead until I see the corpse!" I have a deep affection for the Hound, and therefor, for an entire year I will be waiting for Sansa and Littlefinger to discover him. Sansa will take pity because the Hound saved her, and they will bring him to the Eyrie where he will receive medical attention. Then, he will eventually get to kill FrankenMountain. This delusion will make me very happy until the show confirms otherwise.

 

That is my thought exactly! The Hound was still alive when we saw him last so he ain't dead dead. ---he just looks to be a gonner--- but he could still be saved! I will look forward to seeing him and Arya meet again in the future. Good times a comin'!

 

God! This was an awesome episode! So much better than last weeks tedious battle ep.

 

I love that the odious Tywin got offed ---by Tyrion no less! The character deserved such an unglamourous ending. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

 

I agree with those that are saying when Bran "flies" it is going to be on a dragon! That will be cool.

 

Ah and Arya! I love her! I love that mask of a face as she watched the Hound beg her to kill him. and it was laugh out loud wonderful whe she took his gold and just left him there! I am so glad she didn't go off with Brienne.(sp?) She will become a better killer away from things like morals and feelings and such.

 

[jadiem]

My final thoughts on Shae and her often irrational behavior (since she doesn't have her own thread):  I think she may have had a danger fetish that overruled reason.  We first find her in the middle of a soon-to-be battlefield on a foreign continent.  Only prostitutes desperate for money venture into those lawless, dangerous conditions, and if Shae's answers during the drinking game are to be believed, she never needed to be a prostitute at all.  Her situation at home was not desperate, at least not in the way Tyrion theorized.  Then they move to King's Landing, and Shae loves how vile and dangerous it is.  She keeps forcing risky rendezvous with Tyrion, despite his well-explained reasons why they can't be seen together.  Shae also seems most interested in Sansa when she's at her most vulnerable, then turns against her when Sansa is safe with Tyrion.  Finally, Shae ends up with Tywin, the one man in the entire world who specifically wants her dead, and perhaps in her mind seduces him.  So the way I make sense of Shae is I think her life was about seeking out these situations and wanting men to love her beyond their own good judgment.  Like it's their last day on earth.  Tyrion's genuine affection and protectiveness wasn't satisfying to her.  Shae never did anything except push Tyrion to greater risks and brinksmanship.  She inadvertently gave him one final push in the finale.  I assume we'll never learn more about her, but I think there was more than petty jealousy driving her.

[bunnyblue]

 

I agree with those that are saying when Bran "flies" it is going to be on a dragon! That will be cool.

 

I agree too. Bran's story is my least favorite. It is so tedious and he's so isolated from everyone, but if he were to warg into Drogon, that would go a long way in redeeming his story for me. When that tree guy said Bran would fly I thought he meant he'd warg into a crow of something dull. But get Dany's dragons involved and we've got a whole new ballgame. I don't know if that's the direction they'll take but I think it would be more exciting than what he's been doing. 

Edited June 16, 2014 by bunnyblue

[Mz Anthrope]

The same person who's in the box now, Tyrion.

That's what I'd thought, thank you Constantinople!  But, I wasn't sure...

 

From one soul to be tortured being in it to one tortured soul being saved in it.  Very cool

[Potanical Pardon]

Damn it, Arya, just finish the guy already! A few weeks ago she was actively trying to keep his neck from getting infected. Hot and cold much? This week, he was mortally mangled while protecting her from somebody that she ultimately did not want to travel with. He didn't do it for money, because there was nobody left to sell her to. Furthermore, he was the one who she immediately started bitching at to stop in the middle of a poop and come out and play bodyguard for her. So it's not like she "couldn't kill him." She did kill him, or at least was largely responsible. I didn't hear one peep out of her surly little ass trying to stop the fight from happening. And then, after he's no longer useful, his sentence basically becomes death by torture. I think perhaps her character arc has been the journey from "scrappy" to "dark" to "just a bitch."

I think the point of this was in Arya's own twisted kind of way she was giving the Hound what he wanted. It was a callback to the farmer family that the Hound robbed point blank because he was going to be "dead anyways." Arya taking the Hound's gold was her way of saying "Thanks for taking care of me and look I learned your life lessons well. At the same time I'm still going to go about it all MY WAY. I'm not going to put you out of your misery myself." The Hound seemed to figure this out even though he was still pleading and yelling after her to finish him off - proving to Arya that he really didn't believe that aspect of his own philosophy after all.

[mama silverside]

Just signed up to discuss this! My husband has read the books and has a rubbish poker face so I don't tend to talk with him about the massive things.

I remember way back in season one when I declared Dany to be the sort of character I love but would end up despising, and although I seen her pain in locking the dragons up, her 'act now think later' decisions all this season have sent me well on my way to disliking her, which I'm upset about. I can't justify anything she's done this season except the decision to stay and attempt to govern/learn to rule. I think locking up the so far blameless dragons she's created an massive issue that may literally bite her in the ass later. She needs Jorah more than she realises.

I see the general consensus of Arya's decision to leave the Hound is negative, but I'm torn. I either think she's using the fact she knew his fear of dying slowly and painfully as her brand of justice, or there is a complex and confusing bond there that she left him alive to give him a chance of survival. The fact the Eyrie (sp?) is only about 10 miles away was mentioned a few times - what are the chances he is a) discovered and b) able to receive help? Either way, head canon is he ain't dead until they burn the body. The Hound is just too much a fascinating and entertaining character for me to give up on. My instinct on him saying he *could* have raped Sansa (as a push for Arya to want to kill him) reminded her that he didn't, neither did he attempt anything with her. She knowers he's not the monster he paints himself to be. Where she goes from here, literally and figuratively, is the bigger source of anticipation for me. Trained killer Arya promises to be utterly fascinating as she moves closer to living out Ned's nightmare for her.

It was a total lightbulb moment when Stannis brought his army north. I know people have complained that the ease of his getting there defeats the point of the Wall, but remember, it wasn't built to keep people in, but to keep the 'monsters' out. I'd wager it was the first time anyone thought to, and had the means to take to the sea to go beyond the Wall. Tactically, I respect the decision. With Roose Bolton telling his son recently that North was a landmass greater than the rest of the kingdoms combined, Stannis is now poised to start from the top and work his way back down, and if that means bringing the Night's Watch AND the Wildlings under his army, by the time he hits King's Landing he could be incredibly powerful if not damn near unstoppable!

I always think Bran's storyline should be more interesting than it ultimately is. Drip feeding us the story leaves me completely cold (pun intended) to something I would otherwise be all over, high fantasy being a particular love of mine. It'd be different if they used the time checking in on their quest to examine their motivations and character development, but I don't think they do. Jojen's sacrifice should have been heartbreaking but I had no idea what he was doing and why. Killing him so close to the tree seemed like a cheap shot that was quickly dismissed. I do hope the story line picks up the pace or at least lets us get to know these characters so we at least have an emotional attachment to them. My first thought also went to dragons when Dumbledalf mentioned flying. Either warging or becoming a dragon rider, just make it interesting!

Ygritte looked beautiful. I liked that Jon was able to give her a wilding funeral with no words - just silent grief and a chance to mourn.

Finally, Tyrion does what he does best - survive. I'm glad he saw through Tywin finally saying 'My Son' like it meant anything- and twisted the knife by letting him know that yes, he was always his son - a lion that was finally biting back. That that simple truth was the final thing Tywin heard was more poetic than where he died, to me. I'm sad Shae is dead, but it was never going to go anywhere else as soon as Shae testified against him. She never believed that trying to send her away was an act of love, that he was as much a victim of circumstance as she was. I'm sad we never find out the who's and why's of her final days, and those truths died with her, but this is Game of Thrones - not everything has an answer, much less a satisfactory one. I'm looking forward to Tyrion and Varys joining forces now. I have a feeling that although Tyrion may not win the Game, he'll surely outlive them all.

Believe it or not - this is the short version! I could go on but I won't. Take pity on me!

Edited June 16, 2014 by mama silverside

[CletusMusashi]

I believe that after being bitten, beaten, gouged, sliced up, and thrown into Springfield Gorge, what Sandor was asking for was exactly what he wanted. If pressed further, he would probably have growled something along the lines of "Philosophy is for cunts." 

I really hope I'm wrong and he does make it. But I'm expecting he dies of exposure or shock long before next season starts. I'm gonna miss the big lug, especially if they're still gonna have Mount Frankenberry lumbering around.

Edited June 16, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[RandomX]

I think Arya also realized that the Hound was no longer on her list. The Hound was not only trying to goad her, but was also reminding her of all the reasons she first put him on the list, then kept him there. Her not killing him showed that she recognized his humanity and valued him.

Then -- as said above -- Arya taking the bag of silver showed him that she had learned from him but would apply his lessons in her own way.

I'll miss them together, though it was time gor the Westeros Wanderings to end.

[Shermie]

To be fair, Drogon didn't really eat the child, he just barbecued her to a crisp. She was intact, so to speak, but quite braised. 

 

As for Tywin's demise, well, the show is called Game of Thrones. So... live by the throne, die on the throne?

[Conan Troutman]

I had the exact same thought, and was waiting for Tyrion to comment about it before he stepped into the crate. But I guess he was in too much of a rush to worry about was had been stashed there before him. I'm still surprised Varys risked and gave up so much to help Tyrion.

 

He probably didn't think of it as that big a risk. Get a boat, tell Jamie where to lead Tyrion, guide him to the boat and then go back to bed. When he realised something was wrong, he had no option but to go through with the plan because he couldn't just bring him back. Luckily for him, those bells rang relatively early. It would have been way worse if he heard them when he was already back.

 

Why did he help him in the first place? Obviously because Tyrion saved everybody's ass at the Blackwater, so Varys thought he owed him for that. Thinking back to the trial, his line "Sadly, I don't forget anything" was a nice bit of foreshadowing. Not that Varys knew at this point, but on rewatch, we'll see this scene with a different eye. Which is one of the best things about the show, each time you go back after a new season has finished, it's a completely different experience.

 

Back to the Arya/Hound scene: While I do think that the Hound isn't the monster he claims to be (but not necessarily thinks he is, it could be something between self protection and fishing for empathy) and was actually honest about his intention to protect Arya, that still doesn't excuse what he's done in the past. Killing that butcher's boy, while he was following orders, was still cruel (and maybe not even necessary, perhaps he could've just said he killed him and just let him escape). Also trying to kill that farmer for his carriage or stealing that silver are deeds that eventually caught up with him. And even if he at the end didn't want to ransom Arya, that was his intention at first. So he kinda had it coming, nice side and all. Arya was trying to see his good side, but when he tried to provoke her, she was reminded of all that and decided to let karma do it's way - and while she certainly can use that silver, I don't think she cares a lot about it, she mainly wanted to take it away from him.

So while in the end, he may have deserved his fate, I'm still sad that he had to go out like that (assuming he doesn't somehow survive, which seems a bit far fetched to me, but who knows) and I wish he would've gotten a chance to further redeem himself.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Conan Troutman

[annlaw78]

 

To be fair, Drogon didn't really eat the child, he just barbecued her to a crisp. She was intact, so to speak, but quite braised.

I'm not sure that's exactly exculpatory...

[Notwisconsin]

For a DRAGON it is.

[Haiti D]

I believe that after being bitten, beaten, gouged, sliced up, and thrown into Springfield Gorge, what Sandor was asking for was exactly what he wanted. If pressed further, he would probably have growled something along the lines of "Philosophy is for cunts."

I really hope I'm wrong and he does make it. But I'm expecting he dies of exposure or shock long before next season starts. I'm gonna miss the big lug, especially if they're still gonna have Mount Frankenberry lumbering around.

The Hound surviving this would be awesome. However, from what we've seen on GoT, miracles are rare. I don't think he'll live and I hope his death haunts Arya. Maybe he's the first name of a list she creates of people that she has wronged. But I doubt it, she's on the road to amorality

[wayne67]

I think Dany made the best decision she could given the situation, I am hoping that it is a temporary measure because otherwise it seems incredibly stupid and self limiting for the sake of a convenient power down. The reason I imagine she shoved the dragons into a catacomb in chains is quite simply they are catacombs and if they break free they might wander around aimlessly in the dark for a while and get lost. It cant possibly work in the long time because they'll literally grow out of those chains (unless they're already full grown) and they'll need to have a fairly constant supply of food and water to survive (leaving them with plenty of opportunities to fire ball their captors that aren't mom).

 

It still seems terribly short sighted which is fairly consistent with Dany really, she makes decisions that sound good on paper and then something unexpected happen that seem obvious in hindsight. For instance freeing slaves seems like a good thing because people shouldn't be treated like chattel used and bought and sold and killed with little to no regard for the person, however its sort of obvious in hindsight that former slaves would suffer from issues caused by lack of employment. Does seem Dany has thought of some of the issues, she has apparently set up barracks to house them and organised for them to be fed but she didn't think ahead that idle people aren't great citizens. She probably thought she was giving them much needed time off from having to do stuff but if she wants to be a good ruler she must learn that government works best when everyone is working and too busy to come to her office all the time with their dramas. Dany means well but her plans often lack adequate foresight. I'm really hoping Varys and Tyrion join up with Dany and that will provide some entertaining comedy and Dany will have two new advisors who are practical and ruthless and in the case of Varys thinks ahead (usually ) quite well.

 

As for Bran his story arc finally got somewhat more interesting, sadly I still have no idea why I should care as noone has said much about the quest other than go north to find 3 eyed raven and we might be able to save everyone from White Walkers. Considering the White Walkers are doing something off screen possibly menancing since their first appearance I can't work up that much interest in that goal.

 

Essentially the same with Arya I don't really care that much about her eventual character growth of turning into a well trained murderer. There are tonnes of killers in Westeros, killing people doesn't seem like that great of an achievement and frankly I would have been much happier if she simply went with Jaqen in the first place since she's achieved absolutely nothing of value to her plans other than killing some people who pissed her off along the way since (2 minor characters).

 

Stannis finally showed some sparkle after such a long time, possibly because this is the one field where he actually has a skill everyone has said he was a great commander which was usually followed by he's boring, finally he gets to fight a battle on land where he can shine. Sadly that was quickly overshadowed by him asking (from his POV) some random for his advice and also being so petulant about not being addressed as Grace, the Wildling King has a point, you have no jurisdiction in this neighbourhood.

 

Tyrion actually became guilty of more heinous crimes escaping from a crime he didn't commit, he killed his kin and his former lover, all in all, I'm looking forward to seeing what Jamie's reaction to his involvement in freeing his brother so he could murder their father is going to be.

 

Robb as per usual bored with his farewell to his dead Wildling and in general interaction with Mance

 

On a random note I keep thinking who would make the most hilarious suitor in the Dany GOT dating game. Ramsey Bolton, she could sentence people to die for aggravating her and he could flay them and her dragons could eat them later after roasting them just a little. Or LittleFinger, she's been known to like older guys or at least value their wisdom for a little while, he could be the Machievellian King to her shortsighted thinking, dude had like a 5 year plan to sow chaos and then reap lordships out of it. Or Bran, yes he's very young but he's very strong with the warging and would make an excellent step dad to those dragon children, he could help her get them into correct behavior. "No eating or burning children dragon step children or I'll warg you into a tree until you behave I am a Stark and we value honor until death" .

 

I'm not writing some weird fan fictions in my head right now it just seems like it.

 

As to Brienne and Hound, I kept expecting them to make out or something, I think Tv has indoctrinated me into expecting when a man and woman fight (typically through yelling and insults) they end up with the mad crazy hate sex. Instead he fell off a cliff, I laughed a bit while feeling sad for him, dude has no friends in this world, if only he could have met Bronn for a road trip buddy they could have had amoral fun all day. Oh well maybe in the next life .

 

[Deanie87]

Ugh, they kill off all of the interesting characters! I will sorely miss Tywin and the Hound. I find all of the unequivocally good characters to be so boring and even worse, humorless (Brienne being the exception). Bran, Dany, Jon Sn...zzzzzzzzzzz. Sorry, I just fell asleep there for a minute! I much prefer the morally gray characters or even the out and out baddies. They get all the good lines and so many of them (Cersei, Jamie, Littlefinger) can earn my sympathy one minute and then my revulsion the next. Even Joffrey was fun to hate. I hope that now that Stannis has come to the Wall and Sansa is growing into her scheming, that these characters will grow more interesting. Sadly, I think Bran is a lost cause.

Probably alone here but happy to see Jaimie and Cersei back together. In some creepy, God-help-us-all way, it feels more genuine that anything else these two were going to do.

You are not alone! I kind of want those crazy kids to make it. And I think they are kind of hot together. Of course, I also may or may not be rooting for LF and Sansa, and may or may not find Bran attractive, so my judgement may not be the best. And no, I don't want to know how old the actor is. Edited June 16, 2014 by Deanie87

[Stardancer Supreme]

Now that Tywin is no more and Tyrion is on the run, who will become the heir to Casterly Rock?  Will Cersei even consider that or will she be satisfied to be Queen Regent again?  Jaime is still a Kingsguard, unless Tommen releases him (Not sure Cersei would want that, though).  And who will be the Hand of the King?  

 

Now to a long hiatus from the land of Westeros...

[resonance]

The Hound surviving this would be awesome. However, from what we've seen on GoT, miracles are rare. I don't think he'll live and I hope his death haunts Arya. Maybe he's the first name of a list she creates of people that she has wronged. But I doubt it, she's on the road to amorality

The GoT sometimes puts realistic twists on some of its stories such as Eddard Stark being executed or Shae turning out to be nothing more than a sex worker; but, at the same time, its had its share of cop outs.

 

For example, no way did the Mountain survive being stabbed in the stomach with enough strength to smash Oberyn's head. Also, Tyrion's rescue is a complete deus ex machina. If it were that easy to save him, Jaime would not need to negotiate with Tywin in the first place. And what about Stannis' army's sudden heroic appearance?

 

Furthermore, from the Hound's rhetorical remark about there being a 'Grand Maester behind that rock', it might actually be insinuated that he is NOT in dying condition with the proper medical attention.

 

I am not a Hound fan and do not care whether we ever see the character again; but, in television terms, there is no way he is even close to dead. "Left to die" has never translated to "dead" in television. EVER. Not even in the most realistic shows. Directors are not going to forego a dramatic death sequence when the opportunity arises. It's like turning down $100.

 

(In a lot of lower quality shows, "dead" characters even come back alive.)

Edited June 16, 2014 by resonance

[Conan Troutman]

And who will be the Hand of the King?  

 

Good question. Apparently Cersei's in charge for now as regent, so she'll probably make the call. Can she appoint herself? If so, she might do that to secure her influence even after Tommen is married. If not, the ovious choice would be Jamie (she might or might not have to release him from the King's Guard first). While that would be hilarious (insert hand pun here), I seriously doubt Jamie would be up for the task or even want it. I'd say Mace Tyrell, since royal allies are always a preferred choice, but Cersei surely wouldn't want that. Has she any allies left? Maybe Lancel. Or that Maester that is currently doing some really freaky stuff with the Mountain's half-dead body. And btw, if she's in charge, she'll probably try to stop the Tommen-Margaery wedding. Either way, the KL stuff will remain interesting.

[Libby96]

So, weeks after Joffrey's death, Tyrion finally discovers what he had in common with his troubled nephew... a fondness for crossbows.

[Macbeth]

I think Bran is going to Worg Drogon.

This is the only way Bran's story will have any relevance.  Dany is too busy in Myreen chaining up the other 2 dragons. 

 

The dragons are much more important than you are Dany.  They are alive for a very specific purpose, and not toys that you can put away when your are done.  If you don't know how to raise your children, you have no right ruling anything.

 

I believe Drogon killing the child was an accident since he did run away from home.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Macbeth

[bluvelvet]

Good question about who will be the new Hand, I agree about Jaime, Cersei would probably pick him as she did mention it to him in season 1, episode 1 but I think Jaime no absolutely NO interest in power or the throne.

 

Re: the dragons, this isn't the first time Drogon has killed someone by burning them, the only difference is that when it happened in the past Danaerys gave the order. Wasn't it Drogon she gave to that slave master and then commanded him to basically burn the man. She also did it was they were babies and she was locked up with them, so how is Drogon supposed to know you don't just go around burning people.  Also when Danaerys plans to invade Westeros I am sure she plans on the Dragons burning her enemies, they are not going to distinguish between child and adult.

 

As for the other two, I felt so bad..whomever commented that they were so trusting was absolutely correct. I get why she did it, but #1 they weren't the culprit ,#2 this will make them harder to control and they won't trust her anymore and #3 they will grow bigger.  They are locked in a dark place with no light or open space to fly.  As Jorah said, Dragons are not tame, since her ancestors rode dragons I assume there is some way to control them. 

Edited June 17, 2014 by bluvelvet

[Constantinople]

To be fair, Drogon didn't really eat the child, he just barbecued her to a crisp. She was intact, so to speak, but quite braised.

 

 

I'm not sure that's exactly exculpatory...

 

 

For a DRAGON it is.

It totally is exculpatory.

Is it Drogon's fault that the kid was dumb enough to get in the way of dragon fire?

If anything it's the father's fault. Parents are supposed to teach their children things like look both ways before you cross the street, buckle your seat belt and don't get in the way of dragon fire.

Really, this is just an example of natural selection in action.

[hincandenza]

I think Dany made the best decision she could given the situation, I am hoping that it is a temporary measure because otherwise it seems incredibly stupid and self limiting for the sake of a convenient power down. The reason I imagine she shoved the dragons into a catacomb in chains is quite simply they are catacombs and if they break free they might wander around aimlessly in the dark for a while and get lost. It cant possibly work in the long time because they'll literally grow out of those chains (unless they're already full grown) and they'll need to have a fairly constant supply of food and water to survive (leaving them with plenty of opportunities to fire ball their captors that aren't mom).

Emphasis mine.  They're still babies, basically.  We actually know from the very first season that dragons never really stop growing, and historically get much, much, much.... much bigger than they are currently.

 

 

At their current size, they're a nice advantage in the field, or against that one guy who owned the Unsullied, although against any prepared army they'd go down in the first or second volley of arrows from a few hundred longbow archers.  But when larger?  They're basically the nuclear weapons of Westeros.

Edited June 17, 2014 by hincandenza

[phoenix780]

Also, Tyrion's rescue is a complete deus ex machina. If it were that easy to save him, Jaime would not need to negotiate with Tywin in the first place. And what about Stannis' army's sudden heroic appearance?

 

That's an interesting point.  

 

I consider Tyrion's rescue to be a natural progression, just a twist in the plot.  Jamie tried to get him freed, which would have left Tyrion able to live in Westeros (until Cersei got him, anyway), it didn't work, enter Varys with a plot to help Tyrion break out of jail.  Even though I get how it's still deus ex machina, it felt natural to me given what we know about that world and the players involved. 

 

Stannis on the other hand...was last seen at the bank.  And he appeared on the opposite side of the wall, dressed inappropriately, with a massive army that didn't appear to have fought anything on their way to the wall (something is chasing the Wildlings, right? wouldn't Stannis have run into them chasing them down?).  It was visually cool, but definitely a little more out of place, imho.

 

It's a good thing Jon didn't get to seal the tunnel.  Now Stannis can go through.  Otherwise, he'd have to go back around (which may not be that big a deal). 

[bluvelvet]

It took me a minute to figure out that picture, it's Arya with a Dragon head's skeleton...so yeah those babies have a ways to grow. No way the catacombs are going to hold them forever.

[Haiti D]

Emphasis mine.  They're still babies, basically.  We actually know from the very first season that dragons never really stop growing, and historically get much, much, much.... much bigger than they are currently

 

 

I do recall Tywin pointing out once that full grown dragons can vary in size.  So there's no guarantee that all three of Danaerys' dragons will be huge.

  And who will be the Hand of the King?  

 

 

 

That is an interesting question.  Who wants the position?  I don't know.  Cersei should make herself Hand, not because she's the right person for the job, but because she'll have greater control over Tommen's fate.  Jamie probably doesn't want the job.  In fact, the entire Small Council is in flux.  Varys has left Kings Landing.  Baelish won't be leaving the Eyrie anytime soon.  Cersei hates Pycelle and may demote him.  There's only Mace Tyrell left, as Master of Ships (?).    Politics will be really interesting next year.

[wayne67]

I agree that Dany locking up the dragon kids are a bad idea, however I can't think of anything better and I'm a dispassionate 3rd party viewer who is completely unspoiled about the future. I mean she could try and train them to be good dragons but from what i can tell they're in early adolescence or whatever the dragon equivalent is called and they're temperamental full of random hormonal changes and mothers historically have had little luck fighting that. I like Dany but she has no real idea what to do with her dragons, she's mostly gotten this far going off some faint mystical urge which may or may not be trustworthy giving her family lineage. Her dragons are similar to the dire wolves, they're great when they're surrounded by enemies and the equation is simple, Stark/people who feed me are good and must not eat them or kill them and everyone else is open season. Considering the Stark family lot lately that usually works out fairly well. However both the dire wolves and dragons while having some personality and more intelligence than the average pet don't have much in the way of useful experience making moralistic and long term decisions as to whether someone is kill worthy beyond that. This is part of the reasons the Stark family and Targaeryn family both went into decline, Starks because Arya's wolf bit the prince of the country he was in and that kind of pushed Ned into the whole game of politics where he had trouble dealing with the realities that children are cute and adorable now and innocent but in ten years they'll be grown up and want to burn half the country down for revenge over their parents or siblings. I have no idea how Rob's wolf managed to pick between a whole bunch of random soldiers and the night watch guys who locked him up, especially considering what he did to his last captor. Then again in most tv shows they never show anyone commiting friendly fire in the heat of battle even though it's fairly common when you're surrounded by loud noises and death and multiple head injuries to ocassionally get confused as to which direction to fire.

 

As for the Targaeryns they grew rich and powerful and all sorts of crazy trying to breed the dragon power into their family line until one of them went too far and got his head chopped off. Now Dany has dragons which is great on paper but now she has to deal with how to train adolescents of a species that hasn't been around for 300 years and the only helpful info she has to work with is that they're good at burning stuff. Not exactly helpful in training dragons into always attacking the right targets. Especially since when you're dealing with teenagers with super powers it's fairly easy for mishaps to occur, eg the backstory of Rogue or one of them where she accidentally sends her bf into a coma. Dragon fire may be prone to the ocassional misfire or miscalculation. However since Drogo has run off scared of Momma Dragon Dany we'll probably never hear his possibly good excuse for burning that small girl alive. After all she might have poked him in the eye with a stick while he was sleeping and he woke up grumpy and burned the attacker without thinking . Extenuating circumstances are important in deciding the level of culpability involved in mystical creatures commiting fatalities. For all we know Drogo extent of training was pre slave markets where Dany told him he should kill anyone who tries to attack him. Most of the dragon interactions with Dany involve them killing stuff and being fed by their mother. Not exactly sufficient evidence to judge whether Dany is a rotten dragon mother or that Drogo is simply a bad egg to use that common colluqualism which also doubles as a terrible pun. So far she's has a fairly decent sucess rate 2 out of 3 children trust and obey her and only 1 has murdered a small child under unknown circumstances.

 

Not like I really care about the morality of a dragon teen considering that most people seem to have no problem with the wolves or Arya killing whoever they feel like. Morally white characters are often boring, then again morally black characters can be thoroughly dull too if their reasoning is too cartoonish/stupid. I like Dany not because she's a good ruler because well, she kind of is a work in progress in that regards but she tries and fails and sometimes learns the right lesson. At least she's learning something so far, its the characters that never seem to learn anything from their experiences that drive me mental.

Edited June 17, 2014 by wayne67

[LittleIggy]

I assume Dany is going to keeping feeding her dragons. Right? I had to mute them crying for their mom.

[CletusMusashi]

The dragons were pretty controllable when they were even younger and more clueless about what was expected of them.

The problem is that she sits inside all day, and they're left ignored. She used to always hold court outside, with the dragons right next to her. They could hear her voice tones and smell her emotional changes, 24/7, and had some clue as to how they should follow. You don't train a dog properly by leaving it in a crate in the garage all day except for the five minutes that you feel like visiting. I'm pretty much thinking same schtick with dragons.

Edited June 17, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[Ronin Jackson]

I've been pretty busy and couldn't watch this episode until tonight... man is it tough avoiding spoilers if you don't watch this show the night it airs... you can't go on the internet without being smacked in the face by a GOT headline (Shocking finale!  Murders!)  Anyway I wound up anticipating something shocking, which, given the show we are watching is more or less expected, and I wasn't really shocked by anything that happened in this episode, but perhaps I've been desensitized.  

 

Sad to see Jojen go, he was an intriguing character who we didn't see much of.  Meera handled it well.  I assume The Hound is actually dead... Arya leaving him to die slowly seemed to have a narrative purpose other than leaving his death ambiguous.  Arya and Tyrion are my favorite characters on the show, now that Oberyn is gone (I suppose I'm over my butt hurt over that now...), so glad to see them sailing off into next season.

[Constantinople]

Upon reflection, I don't think Tyrion could justifiably argue self-defense in killing Shae.  Tyrion had no right to be in his father's rooms.  Tyrion was the intruder, not Shae.  Ordinarily, intruders don't have a right to murder a person trying to defend herself by, say, grabbing a knife.

 

Also, unless more information comes out later -- since Shae is dead, I'm not sure how this would come out except as a monologue from Cersei -- I'm not sure Cersei gave Shae much choice about "betraying" Tyrion.

[Conan Troutman]

Upon reflection, I don't think Tyrion could justifiably argue self-defense in killing Shae.  

 

Arguably not, but what difference does it make? In-universe, he's already sentenced to death, so what? As far as reaction from the audience goes, I don't think he came in there with the intent to murder her, because he didn't know she was there. So it wasn't cold-blooded murder, either and I don't even know if he would've done it hadn't she attacked him first. 

 

Of course, that leaves the question "why the hell DID he go in there"? Wanted he one last look at his father? Or did he want to kill him in his sleep? 

[CletusMusashi]

Actually, the strangest thing about Tyrion killing Shae was that, as noisy as that fight seemed to us, Tyrion was maybe 30 feet away, completely oblivious, pooping away happily. Seven fucking gods! How much noise was his body producing that he was that completely oblivious?

ETA: Maybe he does shit gold. It would tend to jingle and/or clunk quite a bit. When he told Cersei about the mines being empty, he simply meant he was constipated.

Edited June 17, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[Lady S.]

Of course, that leaves the question "why the hell DID he go in there"? Wanted he one last look at his father? Or did he want to kill him in his sleep? 

Probably, actually I don't think he had any concrete plan of what to do when he found Tywin. Escaping in the night just didn't feel like enough of a victory over Tywin, he needed to see his father's face when he realized Tyrion had won. As irrational as it was, I can't say I blame him too much, since Tywin has dominated him his entire life with pretty irrational reasoning. Seeing Tywin die like that was pretty sweet to me, even better was Tyrion re-loading for a shot at his heart. I like how Tyrion pointed a crossbow at him and Tywin still thought he could control him and scoffed at the idea of Tyrion shooting him on the shitter. Tywin's whole reputation is built on fear and implicit and explicit threats, but when Tyrion doesn't want his pain over murdering Shae made light of and tells Tywin not to call her a whore again, Tywin assumes Tyrion won't actually do anything about it, refusing to the end to recognize how much Tyrion was like him.

 

ETA: Here's an EW piece with Dinklage and Dance's thoughts on the matter.

 

“He doesn’t know what’s going to happen,” added Dinklage. “He understands the force that Tywin is, so I think he’s smart enough to know that there are consequences for going up there. But he can’t leave without something. He needs that closure. No matter what it is, he needs something. Maybe he’s going to get killed, but he just can’t leave yet.”

 

Tyrion then pulls the trigger on his father after the patriarch repeatedly calls Shae a “whore.” “Tyrion is grief-stricken about what he just did [to Shae] and Tywin doesn’t give a sh–,” Dinklage said. “So that’s the finger that fires.”

 

Before the murder, Tyrion also catches his ex-lover, Shae, in Tywin’s bed — and kills her as well. “[Tywin is] a hypocrite as well, I’m afraid,” Dance sighed. “He’s a ‘do what I say, not what I do.’” Worst of all, he makes the fatal mistake of continuing to antagonize his son even while staring down the business end of a crossbow.

 

“As far as Tywin is concerned, [Tyrion] is the one area he’s failed in because in 15th, 16th century in Europe, any imperfection — whether it’s dwarfism, blindness, a child born unperfected — ideally, you smother them, get rid of them, put them in a bucket or anything,” said the actor. “He let Tyrion live, to his astonishment, and Tyrion is the brightest of his three children, the wittiest, and the cleverest. Those are the qualities that he would admire if he weren’t a dwarf, but the fact that he’s a dwarf is a continual reminder of his failure. So as long as he’s alive he’s going to treat him like sh– –it’s horrible.”

 

“I’m not one of these actors that tries to find the good in a character,” Dance added. “If a character is a sh–, he’s a sh–, and you play him full on as a sh– – don’t try and make him nice, you play him full on.”

 

 

I like Dinklage saying that Tyrion was willing to risk his life, yet again, just to have it out with Tywin. Like Obie, he was consumed by decades worth of bitterness and ultimately put that ahead of his own survival. Dance also says he wants Tywin to have a great funeral in s5, but with this series there is the risk of incest of dubious consent right next to the corpse.

 

As for Jaime freeing Tyrion, I see no way that that's a plot hole. Jaime was always opposed to outright breaking him out of his cell, and preferred to negotiate during the trial. Tyrion blew up that deal and lost his trial by combat so Jaime had no other way to save his life than to involve Varys in a last-resort escape. I kinda wish we'd seen Jaime and Varys plan this, but I can see why it works to not have the audience know Jaime's going to rescue him and share Tyrion's surprise when Jaime enters in the dark.  I liked how their last scene together opened with a joke, with Tyrion unknowingly calling Jaime a son of a whore and Jaime telling him that's no way to speak of their mother.

 

FYI, here's a screenshot from the HBO map showing that Braavos, as the northernmost free city is on the way to the far North.

I guess it's a tight travel time, but no weirder than most of the other travel times on this show, and the timeline's been especially wonky all season anyway.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Lady S.

[Jeebus Cripes]

The Hound is just too much a fascinating and entertaining character for me to give up on. My instinct on him saying he *could* have raped Sansa (as a push for Arya to want to kill him) reminded her that he didn't, neither did he attempt anything with her. She knowers he's not the monster he paints himself to be. Where she goes from here, literally and figuratively, is the bigger source of anticipation for me. Trained killer Arya promises to be utterly fascinating as she moves closer to living out Ned's nightmare for her.

 

The last time the Hound spoke with Sansa and offered to take her to Winterfell, I saw nothing but truth in his words. He would have protected her. The scene in question comes in at around the 2:00 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOYxB-LpNCI

 

Actually, the strangest thing about Tyrion killing Shae was that, as noisy as that fight seemed to us, Tyrion was maybe 30 feet away, completely oblivious, pooping away happily. Seven fucking gods! How much noise was his body producing that he was that completely oblivious?

ETA: Maybe he does shit gold. It would tend to jingle and/or clunk quite a bit. When he told Cersei about the mines being empty, he simply meant he was constipated.

 

This! And if memory serves, the door to the shitter wasn't even closed all the way.

[RealityGal]

I think Arya also realized that the Hound was no longer on her list. The Hound was not only trying to goad her, but was also reminding her of all the reasons she first put him on the list, then kept him there. Her not killing him showed that she recognized his humanity and valued him.

Then -- as said above -- Arya taking the bag of silver showed him that she had learned from him but would apply his lessons in her own way.

I'll miss them together, though it was time gor the Westeros Wanderings to end.

 

I sort of felt like Arya's list was always made with the assumption that death was the worst thing she could inflict on any of the people she had on her list.  She seemed to mostly want punishment.  When the Hound begged her to kill him, she realized the worst thing she could do was NOT kill him, that was inflicting the punishment he deserved.  But its hard to tell, because Arya maybe had come to have a real relationship with the Hound even though he hurt her, so it would be hard for her to kill him.  She is really an amazing character, and the actress who plays her is so very well suited for the role.

The dragons were pretty controllable when they were even younger and more clueless about what was expected of them.

The problem is that she sits inside all day, and they're left ignored. She used to always hold court outside, with the dragons right next to her. They could hear her voice tones and smell her emotional changes, 24/7, and had some clue as to how they should follow. You don't train a dog properly by leaving it in a crate in the garage all day except for the five minutes that you feel like visiting. I'm pretty much thinking same schtick with dragons.

 

Whats interesting to me - is that Dany devoted herself to freeing the slaves, and they all referred to her as "Mother."  But her dragons, whom she considered her "children" are now locked up....a little like slaves....

[Constantinople]

Arguably not, but what difference does it make? In-universe, he's already sentenced to death, so what? As far as reaction from the audience goes, I don't think he came in there with the intent to murder her, because he didn't know she was there. So it wasn't cold-blooded murder, either and I don't even know if he would've done it hadn't she attacked him first.

Saying that Shae attacked Tyrion first is looking at it from Tyrion's perspective.

Shae was minding her own business when Tyrion showed-up with a big frown on his face (whether Tyrion was trespassing or breaking and entering, I'll leave to the lawyers). Shae, understandably concerned for her safety, reaches for a knife. At this point all Shae has done is engage in rudimentary self-defenses against an intruder whom Shae could reasonably believe wants to hurt her. Before she can do anything, Tyrion is on the bed attacking Shae. The only reason that knife gets close to Tyrion is because Tyrion moved towards Shae, not because Shae moved towards Tyrion. Nor did Tyrion make any effort to run away. In short, everything Tyrion did escalated the situation.

[Mz Anthrope]

 

Also, unless more information comes out later -- since Shae is dead, I'm not sure how this would come out except as a monologue from Cersei -- I'm not sure Cersei gave Shae much choice about "betraying" Tyrion.

This has me wondering how Cersei is going to feel with having Shae found dead in her now dead father's bed.  Given everything else she's going to learn about that night, it will certainly add to the mind-fuckedness.

[Rocket]

Leaving Shae alive allows her to run for and yell for guards Tyrion really has a take her out or die problem. Shae had already tried to kill Tyrion on the stand in the trial. I don't think Tyrion had any clue that Shae would be there so there was no intent to kill her. When fighting someone who got a knife to stab you trying to say knock them out or tie them is increasing the chance that they will kill you so you don't owe them that especially as you don't know how much time you have till someone comes in. I see this as battle field killing of an enemy neither bad nor particularly good just necessary. Shae reaching for knife was ok also they are enemies and Shae know that Tyrion knows she tried to kill him. Might just be a total tragedy if Shae was pushed into doing what she did but anyone saying Tyrion should not killed her is saying Tyrion should accept dying. 

 

Legally there is no legitimate government so legal arguments get very muddled. 

 

The heavy door to the room was closed and the shitter might be quite a walk down the hall around turns, seamed like it, no modern plumbing to put it next to the room. 

[Constantinople]

As for Jaime freeing Tyrion, I see no way that that's a plot hole. Jaime was always opposed to outright breaking him out of his cell, and preferred to negotiate during the trial. Tyrion blew up that deal and lost his trial by combat so Jaime had no other way to save his life than to involve Varys in a last-resort escape. I kinda wish we'd seen Jaime and Varys plan this, but I can see why it works to not have the audience know Jaime's going to rescue him and share Tyrion's surprise when Jaime enters in the dark.  I liked how their last scene together opened with a joke, with Tyrion unknowingly calling Jaime a son of a whore and Jaime telling him that's no way to speak of their mother.

I don't see it as a plot hole either.

Busting Tyrion out of jail was Jaime's last resort after everything else had failed: the expectation of a fair trial; Jaime's deal with Tywin to spare Tyrion's life in exchange for going home, getting married and having children named Lannister; and then the trial by combat.

As for the expectation of a fair trial, I'd need to watch the relevant scenes again, but before the trial started, I thought Jaime believed, or wanted to believe, there would be a fair trial. Thus Tyrion would eventually be freed after being found innocent.

[Mz Anthrope]

Re: Jamie saving Tyrion

 

Or, Varys and Jamie had already discussed what may need to happen if/when Oberyn lost to the Mountain (I doubt anyone thought he'd even get in one good strike before meeting the Baby Jesus) and that was what the look between Jamie and Varys was about just before the battle.   I don't think Varys was ever too far away from Jamie where Tyrion's fate was concerned.  I am sure Varys knew of Jamie's love for his brother and desire to protect him.  Just how that conversation went down is for the plants in the garden to know, I guess.

[Lady S.]

As for the expectation of a fair trial, I'd need to watch the relevant scenes again, but before the trial started, I thought Jaime believed, or wanted to believe, there would be a fair trial. Thus Tyrion would eventually be freed after being found innocent.

I don't know that anyone expects a fair trial in Westeros, but having been away for all of Tyrion's threats and other quarrels in s2, Jaime couldn't know just how bad the trial would be for Tyrion. And I think he didn't want to have get involved, and finally choose between Cersei and Tyrion, so he hoped the trial would work out well enough.

 

Btw, the necklace Tyrion strangled Shae was the same one he gave her after agreeing to marry Sansa, right?

Before I was unsure whether she accepted this unappreciated gift, but it looks to be Chekhov's Golden Chain.

 

Other thoughts:

When showing him the wizard-in-the-box, Varys promised Tyrion he'd one day get his revenge too. By helping him escape, Varys made Tyrion's revenge possible.

 

There's one thing about Jaime even Stannis can approve of, Jaime knows to use the word fewer when counting siblings.

 

I liked the transition from Dany and her dragons straight to her Great-uncle Aemon back in Westeros.

 

Summer didn't look much bigger than Ghost imho.

 

Edited June 17, 2014 by Lady S.

[Independent George]

I've said this before, but Tyrion got a fairer trial than anybody we've seen thus far.

Aside from Shae, nobody actually lied about anything. Tyrion literally had no witnesses, and in fact served Joffrey his wine right before he keeled over. On top of this, he's been known to threaten Joffrey numerous times in public, and his wife mysteriously disappears on the night of the murder.

The evidence against Tyrion here is much, much stronger than it was in the Eeyrie (where it was based entirely on aLittlefinger's third-hand testimony on an unrelated matter). If I were on the jury, I'd have convicted him in about ten seconds, five of which would be spent making sure I didn't have any spinach in my teeth while shouting 'Guilty'.

[Colored Francie]

I was so incredibly happy to learn Varys' role in Tyrion's breakout - his betrayal (understandable though it was) was the one that hit me the hardest in terms of Tyrion's trial. At the time, it also didn't seem to suit Varys' plans, since he makes a big deal about doing things "for the good of the realm" and he told Shae when he entreated her to leave that he really thought Tyrion was the person who could really help the realm, or WTTE.

 

Agreed about Jaime freeing Tyrion being a plot twist, but not a hole. I'm surprised, though, that the possibility Jaime might intervene never occurred to Cersei - or Tywin. Cersei knew about him visiting Tyrion, and both Tywin and Cersei know how much Jaime loves his brother. I can see the paranoid Cersei asking for more guards to keep Tyrion in.

 

On re-watch, Arya's scenes leave me just as conflicted as ever. The Hound makes quite an impressive argument about there being no safety in the world, but I'm kinda with Brienne when she scoffs at the idea that Sandor is "watching" over Arya. I still can't get a bead on Arya's thought process. She goes down to see him after he's fallen over that cliff - when she didn't have to. Bloody and broken, when he complains of wanting wine, she reaches for her water pouch (which he refuses). If he'd kept his mouth shut, perhaps she would've given him the coup de grace. It can be read so many ways, but ultimately, what I *do* know is that Maisie Williams and Rory McCann acted their asses off. Bravo.

[jbrecken]

Has anyone photoshopped the tunnels full of roots where Bran goes together with the tunnels full of branches from the end of True Detective?  Is the Three-Eyed Raven the King in Yellow?

[Ace]

 

 

Stardancer Supreme

Now that Tywin is no more and Tyrion is on the run, who will become the heir to Casterly Rock?  Will Cersei even consider that or will she be satisfied to be Queen Regent again?  Jaime is still a Kingsguard, unless Tommen releases him (Not sure Cersei would want that, though).  And who will be the Hand of the King?

 

Unless Tywin made a will naming someone else to succeed him. By the right of succession Tyrion is the Lord of Casterly Rock. But with Tyrion on the run and so not able to take up the position and Jamie still in the Kings Guard (so not in line to inherit anything), Cercie is next in line. After Cercie, Tywin's brother is next in line, then his first born son and so on.

 

 Its ironic that the moment Tywin died, Tyroin got what he most wanted and what Tywin didn't want him to have, the Lordship of Casterly Rock. Its doubly ironic that he can not take up the title.  

 

Of course, if Jamie leaves the Kings Guard, he would automatically be next in line after Tyrion, so when or if Tyrion doesn't claim his title Jamie would claim it.

 

But this is all moot because I expect Cercie to do the same as she did when Robert died. Convince Tommen to install he as Queen regent and Jamie as the Hand of the King. Then she'd be wise to proclaim Tyrion a fugitive from justice and revoke his right of inheritance.

[Catherinewriter]

"Actually, the strangest thing about Tyrion killing Shae was that, as noisy as that fight seemed to us, Tyrion was maybe 30 feet away, completely oblivious, pooping away happily. Seven fucking gods! How much noise was his body producing that he was that completely oblivious?

ETA: Maybe he does shit gold. It would tend to jingle and/or clunk quite a bit. When he told Cersei about the mines being empty, he simply meant he was constipated."



Cletus, hysterical, I love it.

 

come back, Oberyn

Edited June 17, 2014 by Catherinewriter

[Constantinople]

Part of me was wondering if Cersei was just bluffing when she threatened Tywin she'd tell the truth about her children's parentage if her marriage to Loras wasn't called off.  Unless Cersei was planning to flee to Essos with Tommen, the best case scenario is Tommen ends up at the Wall and Cersei's head decorates a spike in King's Landing.

 

Part of me was wondering if Cersei had thought that through.

 

As for who will be the next Hand, assuming we don't get a new character, I think it will be Pycelle or Mace Tyrell

 

In the pilot, Cersei told Jaime that he should be the Hand, but Jaime was vehement about not being the Hand, and I don't see Jaime changing his mind.  Moreover, at some point in Season 2, Cersei told someone (Tyrion?) that Jaime isn't serious enough to be the Hand.  I also don't think she'd trust Jaime as the Hand after he sprung Tyrion from jail.

 

Pycelle is a Lannister bootlicker through and through.  He's already gone to bat for Cersei twice, once when he told her that Tyrion planned to send Myrcella to Dorne, and a second time when he lied at Tyron's trial about Tyrion stealing Pycelle's potions.  Cersei doesn't like him, but you don't have to like the people that lick your boots provided they do so unhesitatingly and with a minimum of fuss.

 

Like Pycelle, Mace would also be a figurehead.  It would also be a way of throwing a bone to him for breaking off Cersei's engagement to Loras.  No one wanted that engagement for the late Lord Tywin Lannister, but calling off the engagement might look as if the Lannister-Tyrell alliance was weakening.  Appointing Mace as Hand would help to dispel that notion.  But the risk is that Mace would take direction from his mother, Lady Olenna should she ever visit the capital, or even remotely via courier.