The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[Dee]

I'm still shipping Thor & Valkyrie. She has way more chemistry with him than Bruce IMO.

[benteen]

Yeah, Hawkeye as a married family man really does limit him as a character.

[Dandesun]

I don't ship Valkyrie with anyone except perhaps her lost lover that took one of Hela's swords in the back to save her. I'm even less inclined to try to shove her into a relationship with a man as I am Natasha. And the thing is, I wouldn't mind seeing that Clint and Natasha had a thing at one point (maybe Budapest?) and I have certainly read many fics where they're paired up and it's fine. The most obvious romantic/sexual energy in Thor: Ragnarok was between Loki and the Grandmaster anyway. Let's not kid ourselves. We all know what was going on there.

And there were aspects of Bruce and Natasha that I thought were nice but a lot of that (and Clint having an insta-family off in Iowa somewhere) felt like a direct 'fuck you' to the Clint/Natasha shippers. All of that came out of nowhere. Plus, erasing the existence of Betty annoys the shit out of me.

But I feel that Clint and Natasha are tight in a way that goes beyond 'best friend.' The most believable romance is Tony/Pepper -- even their breaking up is believable because Tony is a fucking mess and I could buy Pepper having to step back for her own sanity. But then being together again (as I believe Spiderman: Homecoming suggests?) is also absolutely believable.

And of course, Steve/Bucky who are so wildly co-dependent that even if we bought the 'yeah, Steve's totally het and all' company line I would feel bad for any woman who got involved in that. Sharon... can we just not with Sharon? Can Valkyrie come to earth and hit on Sharon? Valkyrie seems to like blondes (if her past is any indication) and this way we don't have the ghost of the great aunt hovering there as a more superior hereo love interest. The MCU isn't the comics. I'm fine with that.

Or we can just not have romance be a part of it and leave it all to fan speculation while they fight aliens and bad guys in the movies. (Because, you know what? I'm not all that into the idea of Quill/Gamora either. Her more interesting storyline is the stuff with her sister anyway.)

[Wynterwolf]

8 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

Can Valkyrie come to earth and hit on Sharon?

That hadn't occurred to me, but I could see that both from a character and an actor standpoint, I think they could play off each other in an interesting way.  And I think one way to make the Black Widow movie something other than just late to the party after Wonder Woman, etc. would be to follow up on the idea of a women-lead team up movie (similar to Ocean's 8). and I could actually see that as an interesting addition of subtext romance in that kind of set up, particularly with both of their history.  Because the scenes with Sharon and Steve - particularly the elevator scene and the kiss scene - just highlighted how little passion there was between them, so I can see Sharon as someone who has been focused on her career and, because of what she does and how important it is, has trouble finding someone who can understand and appreciate her circumstance and her choices.  Valkyrie would be right there with her on that.  And by the time that movie comes around, Valkyrie will have had time to process her grief and maybe be ready to move on a little.    

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, Bruinsfan said:

I'd prefer Natasha be with neither of them, as having the one founding female member of the team automatically romantically involved with one of her teammates irks me to no end. As does Bruce trying to move on from Betty Ross with someone else when he'll still have all the exact same issues standing in the way. (Valkyrie at least represents a glimmer of hope for him on that front—she was just fine with the monster before she knew there was a man hiding inside.)

 

I actually was starting to like her and Cap in CA: Winter Soldier even though I'm a Steve/Peggy Carter shipper(Hayley Atwell rocks). It wouldn't be this great romance but they'd just have fun. He definitely more sparks than he had with Sharon in the two movies we've seen her in. That though makes me sad you could easily replace Natasha's role in the movie with Sharon. They could have just introduced her as Agent 13 who was a member of Cap's SHIELD team and really nothing would've been lost. Natasha's role in the comic book Winter Soldier storyline was as Bucky's ex-trainer and lover but they didn't utilize that so they diminished Sharon for nothing.

1 hour ago, Bruinsfan said:

I'd also have preferred Clint to be the roguish lothario he's been for most of his comics tenure rather than inexplicably living out The Waltons at home in his free time from being a globe-trotting government spy and assassin—I wouldn't pair him with Natasha and spoil the great buddy vibe they have, but being a shameless flirt otherwise would have been fine and dandy. Though I suppose Renner would have to learn how to stop scowling and have romantic chemistry with a co-star for that to be viable.

I love comic book Hawkeye especially in the Matt Fraction series but in a movie having this team of super powered people where one member whose only skill is archery AND he's a mess in his personal life is just too much to ask. Making MCU Clint be the most professional of the team with the most together private life at least balances it out.

Also having Bobbi Morse, his ex in the comics be off again-on again with British mercenary Lance Hunter turned out to be way fun.

Fans complain that Oliver in the CW Arrow show to be with Laurel Lance and not Felicity Smoak like in the comics. My feeling is the comic book Ollie who's a liberal hothead should be with Black Canary. They balance each other out. But the Bruce Wayne/Batman clone played by Stephen Amell and that shows version of Laurel? Pairing him with Felicity makes more sense.

Edited January 26, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Dee]

I can't ship Steve & Bucky together without Sam. The three of them are simply MADE for each other. One of the MCU's biggest missed opportunities was not making an All Caps road trip film.

I couldn't get behind Natasha & Bruce because it's a King Kong retread. Plus they lacked the breezy chemistry of Clint & Natasha. The whole secret family/barren womb thing was just absurd.

Valkyrie & Natasha sounds promising, but so does Natasha & Sharon. There's also Pepper & Nat who exhibit major frenemy chemistry whenever they're in each others orbits.

I vacillate between shipping Tony with Rhodey and/or Pepper. But as mentioned previously, Tony's such a headcase, it's difficult to want to subject either of them to his particular brand of madness.

Edited January 26, 2018 by Dee

[Wynterwolf]

19 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Fans complain that Oliver in the CW Arrow show to be with Laurel Lance and not Felicity Smoak like in the comics. My feeling is the comic book Ollie who's a liberal hothead should be with Black Canary. They balance each other out. But the Bruce Wayne/Batman clone played by Stephen Amell and that shows version of Laurel? Pairing him with Felicity makes more sense.

Yeah, that's basically the same reason that MCU Bucky and Nat don't work for me as a pairing, because the MCU versions are essentially the same character.  I gravitate towards complementary traits rather than sameness in my romantic pairings (which don't necessarily have to be sexual, just based on a deep emotional connection), but I could see them becoming confidants of each other, because they do have such similar backgrounds, particularly as Bucky has to figure out how to interact more with the rest of the Avengers.  

[Dandesun]

33 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I love comic book Hawkeye especially in the Matt Fraction series but in a movie having this team of super powered people where one member whose only skill is archery AND he's a mess in his personal life is just too much to ask. Making MCU Clint be the most professional of the team with the most together private life at least balances it out.

Also having Bobbi Morse, his ex in the comics be off again-on again with British mercenary Lance Hunter turned out to be way fun.

Fans complain that Oliver in the CW Arrow show to be with Laurel Lance and not Felicity Smoak like in the comics. My feeling is the comic book Ollie who's a liberal hothead should be with Black Canary. They balance each other out. But the Bruce Wayne/Batman clone played by Stephen Amell and that shows version of Laurel? Pairing him with Felicity makes more sense.

Yeah, Comic!Clint is a walking dumpster fire. MCU!Clint is, by all accounts, an extremely competent and talent agent. This is not a man who wakes up in dumpsters and then calls Cap to tell him he won't make it to the Avengers meeting because he's a) lost and b) woke up in a dumpster. (Steve believed one of those things. It wasn't option a.) Bobbi showing up in AoS was delightful and even though I could totally buy MCU+ Clint and Bobbi knowing each other and having worked together, Bobbi's relationship with Lance was a wonderful thing. (I loved when Lance showed up to bust Fitz out of military prison and said that he and Bobbi nearly got married again, 'until the ninjas showed up.')

And having the comic universe be separate from the television and movie universes is absolutely fine. I complain a lot about the X-Men being so different but I didn't have an issue with changes in backstory or anything like that. Even some personality differences are okay but they did so much way too different and they didn't give the very awesome X-Women any real characterization at all. That's the biggest issue for me.

 

22 minutes ago, Dee said:

I can't ship Sam & Bucky together without Sam. The three of them are simply MADE for each other. One of the MCU's biggest missed opportunities was not making an All Caps road trip film.

I couldn't get behind Natasha & Bruce because it's a King Kong retread. Plus they lacked the breezy chemistry of Clint & Natasha. The whole secret family/barren womb thing was just absurd.

Valkyrie & Natasha sounds promising, but so does Natasha & Sharon. There's also Pepper & Nat who exhibit major frenemy chemistry whenever they're in each others orbits.

I vacillate between shipping Tony with Rhodey and/or Pepper. But as mentioned previously, Tony's such a headcase, it's difficult to want to subject either of them to his particular brand of madness.

I have not only seen many Steve/Sam/Bucky tales but I've also seen what they call the Barbershop Quartet which is Steve/Sam/Nat/Bucky. The Winter Soldier movie really dug deep with fans of all kinds.

Tony/Pepper/Rhodey I could totally see happening simply because Rhodey and Pepper need to team up or tag team (not sexually... not all the time anyway) to deal with Tony's mountain of issues.

 

8 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Yeah, that's basically the same reason that MCU Bucky and Nat don't work for me as a pairing, because the MCU versions are essentially the same character.  I gravitate towards complementary traits rather than sameness in my romantic pairings (which don't necessarily have to be sexual, just based on a deep emotional connection), but I could see them becoming confidants of each other, because they do have such similar backgrounds, particularly as Bucky has to figure out how to interact more with the rest of the Avengers.  

MCU Bucky and Nat would just glower at each other a lot. I could absolutely see them as confidants because Natasha came up through the Red Room and Bucky was used as a Russian/Hydra assassin for so long. Sharon doesn't work with Steve in the MCU for a number of reasons but the biggest, for me, is her relationship to Peggy who is still very much a presence in the MCU. I like to think that Sharon stuck her neck out for Steve so much during Civil War because Peggy, who Sharon obviously deeply admired, respected and loved Steve. I can believe that Sharon would stand behind Peggy's stories of him, and seeing that Steve lived up to that, and wanting to step up to help the person that her great aunt so admired and believed in. It makes a lot more sense than her doing so out of some crush. That kiss is still so... uninspired and forced.

[VCRTracking]

There are definitely changes the MCU makes that I like a lot better than the comics. Like I love that instead of Hela being Loki's daughter and ruler of the Asgardian version of the underworld, she was the forgotten first born child of Odin and led his armies when he conquered the Nine Realms and THAT is why she's the "Goddess of Death". The dysfunctional royal family dynamic has always been the heart of the Thor movies and having the villain come from that instead of some outside force like Malekith works so much better.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

4 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

Though I suppose Renner would have to learn how to stop scowling and have romantic chemistry with a co-star for that to be viable.

 

*small voice* I could see Clint and Wanda as a thing. Nothing against Vision/Paul Bettany, but I think Renner and Elizabeth Olsen play off of each other really well.

3 hours ago, Dandesun said:

And of course, Steve/Bucky who are so wildly co-dependent that even if we bought the 'yeah, Steve's totally het and all' company line I would feel bad for any woman who got involved in that. Sharon... can we just not with Sharon? Can Valkyrie come to earth and hit on Sharon? Valkyrie seems to like blondes (if her past is any indication) and this way we don't have the ghost of the great aunt hovering there as a more superior hereo love interest. The MCU isn't the comics. I'm fine with that.

I wouldn't subject a character (or an actress) to being part of that either. The Stucky shippers certainly don't need someone else to troll. :-)

The idea of Steve moving forward with a new person in the present isn't entirely a bad one, but it would pretty much have to be a non-Sharon character we aren't familiar with. Even Maria Hill, as much of a side character as she is, has an awareness of Cap's history, and again I wouldn't want Cobie Smulders to have to deal with the more, shall we say, dedicated faction of shippers.

Also, because I have to:

Edited January 26, 2018 by Cobalt Stargazer

[Which Tyler]

4 hours ago, Dee said:

I'm still shipping Thor & Valkyrie. She has way more chemistry with him than Bruce IMO.

To be fair, Hemsworth can create chemistry with the sofa!

[Dandesun]

16 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

To be fair, Hemsworth can create chemistry with the sofa!

I am totally down for Thor/Sofa. He needs something now that he's lost Mjolnir.

[Kel Varnsen]

5 hours ago, Dee said:

I'm still shipping Thor & Valkyrie. She has way more chemistry with him than Bruce IMO.

I would agree. Valkrie, met Hulk before Bruce and Hulk was basically a giant green toddler. There might be a little weirdness if they started something.

4 hours ago, benteen said:

Yeah, Hawkeye as a married family man really does limit him as a character.

Well to be fair most of Hawkeye's comics personality became Tony Stark's movie personality what with Tony always being the guy with the cocky one liners.

4 hours ago, Dandesun said:

Can Valkyrie come to earth and hit on Sharon? Valkyrie seems to like blondes (if her past is any indication) and this way we don't have the ghost of the great aunt hovering there as a more superior hereo love interest.

Valkyrie is what a few 1000 years old. She is older than Thor becaue she remembers Hela and that was before Thor was alive. I would imagine that once you get over 1000 you might stop having a type, at least with respect to looks.

[tennisgurl]

I liked the idea of Bruce/Natasha at first. She acts stoic, he acts adorkable, they both have dark pasts, I thought it could work. However, in practice, it come across as forced and random, with a weird King Kong/Ann Darrow vibe, that made me feel weird for both of them. It also lead to Natasha getting damselled to motivate Bruce (really Whedon?) and that bizarre backstory about forced sterilization, it was just a series of stereotypical female stories that really haven't been a thing with Natasha in the rest of the series. And, like I said, it was so out of left field. It was just like they fell in love in another movie in between Avengers and AoU, but it was a movie nobody saw. Plus, they have basically negative chemistry. 

It really did seem like Joss wanted to torpedo the Nat/Clint ship (for whatever reason) so he did everything he could to get rid of it. I mean, I dont mind that they're just super close, but it all just reeks for an agenda. Even if they arent a couple, Cline and Nat are each others Person, the way that Steve and Bucky are. Romance are not, its a ridiculously deep connection, and I think they've done a pretty good job at that. For awhile I was into a possible romance between Nat and Steve, but I dont think they're going in that direction. Its too bad, because I think they could work really well. They have complimentary personalities, we have seen their friendship build first, and they have great chemistry. 

[stealinghome]

4 hours ago, Dee said:

Valkyrie & Natasha sounds promising, but so does Natasha & Sharon. There's also Pepper & Nat who exhibit major frenemy chemistry whenever they're in each others orbits.

I’m also kind of attached to the idea of Natasha and Maria Hill, can’t lie. 

I would love a strictly platonic Nat/Wanda mentorship to really develop; together they’re way too messed up for anything romantic, but a mentorship could really bring out different facets of both characters. I enjoyed their brief interactions in CACW.

4 hours ago, Dee said:

I vacillate between shipping Tony with Rhodey and/or Pepper. But as mentioned previously, Tony's such a headcase, it's difficult to want to subject either of them to his particular brand of madness.

Yeah, I don’t even like Don Cheadle’s Rhodey all that much, but I still can’t in good conscience ship him with Tony! And certainly Pepper should be out of his orbit for her own sanity.

For awhile I was into a possible romance between Nat and Steve, but I dont think they're going in that direction. Its too bad, because I think they could work really well. They have complimentary personalities, we have seen their friendship build first, and they have great chemistry.

Agreed on all counts. Steve has way more chemistry with Nat than he does with just about anyone else, and he has to be close to the top of Nat’s sparkage list as well. (Though her top spot may be taken by T’Challa, because DAMN there was chemistry in CACW.)

[starri]

4 hours ago, Dandesun said:

Yeah, Comic!Clint is a walking dumpster fire. MCU!Clint is, by all accounts, an extremely competent and talent agent. This is not a man who wakes up in dumpsters and then calls Cap to tell him he won't make it to the Avengers meeting because he's a) lost and b) woke up in a dumpster. (Steve believed one of those things. It wasn't option a.) Bobbi showing up in AoS was delightful and even though I could totally buy MCU+ Clint and Bobbi knowing each other and having worked together, Bobbi's relationship with Lance was a wonderful thing. (I loved when Lance showed up to bust Fitz out of military prison and said that he and Bobbi nearly got married again, 'until the ninjas showed up.')

Clint is basically the Ultimate Comics version of Clint, the one with the wife and kids.  Lance is the 616 version, which is why he and Bobbi were so great together.

[Dee]

20 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

I’m also kind of attached to the idea of Natasha and Maria Hill, can’t lie. 

I would love a strictly platonic Nat/Wanda mentorship to really develop; together they’re way too messed up for anything romantic, but a mentorship could really bring out different facets of both characters. I enjoyed their brief interactions in CACW.

I LOVE this.

Nat & Maria would be a match in super competent assassin heaven!

I also like the idea of Nat mentoring Wanda. That poor kid has been through so much she definitely needs someone to look out for her.

[VCRTracking]

58 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I liked the idea of Bruce/Natasha at first. She acts stoic, he acts adorkable, they both have dark pasts, I thought it could work. However, in practice, it come across as forced and random, with a weird King Kong/Ann Darrow vibe, that made me feel weird for both of them. It also lead to Natasha getting damselled to motivate Bruce (really Whedon?) and that bizarre backstory about forced sterilization, it was just a series of stereotypical female stories that really haven't been a thing with Natasha in the rest of the series. And, like I said, it was so out of left field. It was just like they fell in love in another movie in between Avengers and AoU, but it was a movie nobody saw. Plus, they have basically negative chemistry. 

Yeah. I wouldn't have been against it if AOU had just come out after the first Avengers and their could be implication they spent a lot of time together but having CA:TWS in between,  Natasha suddenly having feelings for Bruce was weird. Also Bruce's awkwardness is charming when it's with Tony and Thor but he was never that way with Natasha in the first movie. He was confrontational and she was frightened of him.

 

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

It really did seem like Joss wanted to torpedo the Nat/Clint ship (for whatever reason) so he did everything he could to get rid of it. I mean, I dont mind that they're just super close, but it all just reeks for an agenda.

I feel more he was trying to make Age of Ultron like the second season of Buffy. That season was fantastic and where the show reached a higher level. All this great romantic angst and drama with characters put through the wringer and going through so many emotions. The problem is it's easier to do that in a 22 episode season than a 2 hour movie and he also wasn't allowed to kill off any major characters. He could only kill off Quicksilver, who the audience doesn't have that much of an attachment to.

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

6 hours ago, benteen said:

Yeah, Hawkeye as a married family man really does limit him as a character.

Well to be fair most of Hawkeye's comics personality became Tony Stark's movie personality what with Tony always being the guy with the cocky one liners.

Agreed.

 

4 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

*small voice* I could see Clint and Wanda as a thing. Nothing against Vision/Paul Bettany, but I think Renner and Elizabeth Olsen play off of each other really well.

It would be true to the comics. In the first 100 Avengers issues, when he wasn't in a relationship with Black Widow, Hawkeye was trying to score with Wanda. He left the team for a while when she fell in love with Vision, an android, his ego was so bruised actually left the team for a while! The movies however established them having at a big brother/little sister relationship.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

Yeah. I wouldn't have been against it if AOU had just come out after the first Avengers and their could be implication they spent a lot of time together but having CA:TWS in between,  Natasha suddenly having feelings for Bruce was weird. Also Bruce's awkwardness is charming when it's with Tony and Thor but he was never that way with Natasha in the first movie. He was confrontational and she was frightened of him.

I think the best thing about the Black Widow/Bruce connection was the hilariously awkward part of Thor Ragnarok where Thor kept trying to do that stupid "sun's going down" thing. I wonder if that was just Taika Waititi just trying to troll Whedon.

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

It would be true to the comics. In the first 100 Avengers issues, when he wasn't in a relationship with Black Widow, Hawkeye was trying to score with Wanda. He left the team for a while when she fell in love with Vision, an android, his ego was so bruised actually left the team for a while! The movies however established them having at a big brother/little sister relationship.

Speaking of Clint's ego, I wonder if we will ever see Clint get ahold of some Pym particles and become Goliath. I'm just thinking at the Avenger's group gets bigger and more powerful, a guy who shoots arrows good becomes less valuable. So I can see Clint wishing he had better powers.

1 hour ago, starri said:

Clint is basically the Ultimate Comics version of Clint, the one with the wife and kids.  Lance is the 616 version, which is why he and Bobbi were so great together.

That makes sense, I remember reading the first storyline in Ultimates and hating it. Lance as MCU's British version of comics Hawkeye totally makes sense too, I used to love West Coast Avengers so I am surprised I never picked up on that.

[Perfect Xero]

The weird thing about Bruce and Nat to me was it felt like a backtrack that he needed the whole "Sun is going down" thing to transform back. This is the guy who in Avengers rides up on his moped, calmly announces that his secret is, "I'm always angry," and Hulks out on command.

The idea that he needed someone to talk him down so he'd transform back felt like a contrivance to create a connection between Bruce and Nat.

[Wynterwolf]

7 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

The idea that he needed someone to talk him down so he'd transform back felt like a contrivance to create a connection between Bruce and Nat.

Based on what happened in Ragnarok, I think the issue is that he can hulk-out at will, but it's muuuuch harder for him to go back to being Bruce.  So he needs other people (particularly Natasha, because he trusts her) to calm/distract the Hulk persona, so Bruce can reemerge, since the rage persona doesn't want to give up control.  So to me it feels like it was the other way around, they needed someone for that role and I think of all of them, Nat was a good fit for that because she has the most outward emotional control of all of them.  The ' 'romance' in AoU was just ridiculously rushed and handled reeeeeally poorly by Joss.  I tend to look at their interaction completely outside of AoU (since I've only actually watched it twice), which is much more subtle and endearing to me.  

Spoiler

Also, based on some of the set pictures, it seems like they're eventually going to use Tony's B.A.R.F. system to help Bruce with his trauma, then he's going to go off wandering with his knapsack at the end of A4, like in the TV show.

[Raja]

14 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

 

Speaking of Clint's ego, I wonder if we will ever see Clint get ahold of some Pym particles and become Goliath. I'm just thinking at the Avenger's group gets bigger and more powerful, a guy who shoots arrows good becomes less valuable. So I can see Clint wishing he had better powers.

 

The way they set it up it was not just the Pym particles but they know you need the full suit or lose your sanity. Besides they already have War Machine with a duplication  of Iron Man with a bit less technology. Ant-Man is already there showing the ability to grow, there is no need to duplicate his power set only with a giant arrow attachment. While I maintain that his blind shots during the Battle of New York made him enhanced MCU Clint already has dealt with just being a man in Age Of Ultron.  Curiously over on TV Agent May was just saying something similar to agent Coulson. With the real life  54 year old actress recovering from an injury her days as "the Cavalry" and being their go to hand to hand fighter may be numbered assuming the show survives for another season.

[shireenbamfatheon]

11 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

The weird thing about Bruce and Nat to me was it felt like a backtrack that he needed the whole "Sun is going down" thing to transform back. This is the guy who in Avengers rides up on his moped, calmly announces that his secret is, "I'm always angry," and Hulks out on command.

The idea that he needed someone to talk him down so he'd transform back felt like a contrivance to create a connection between Bruce and Nat.

Yeah, but AoU ended with Bruce experiencing his biggest fear after Wanda forced him to turn and sicced him on a civilian population. I can totally see why that would mess him up enough for him to regress in terms of his control over the Hulk. It's similar to Tony regressing with his PTSD (also because of Wanda). I'm just surprised that he's been stuck inside the Hulk for two frickin years. Ragnarok just made me hate Wanda more than I already do. She really did manage to tear the Avengers apart, and her reward was to get former members' spot on the team. 

[stealinghome]

4 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Based on what happened in Ragnarok, I think the issue is that he can hulk-out at will, but it's muuuuch harder for him to go back to being Bruce.  So he needs other people (particularly Natasha, because he trusts her) to calm/distract the Hulk persona, so Bruce can reemerge, since the rage persona doesn't want to give up control.  So to me it feels like it was the other way around, they needed someone for that role and I think of all of them, Nat was a good fit for that because she has the most outward emotional control of all of them.  The ' 'romance' in AoU was just ridiculously rushed and handled reeeeeally poorly by Joss.  I tend to look at their interaction completely outside of AoU (since I've only actually watched it twice), which is much more subtle and endearing to me.  

I find this plausible. One of the problems with Bruce as a character is that if he can flip between Bruce and the Hulk at will, he's not interesting any more. (Well, personally I've never found him all that interesting to begin with, but you know what I mean.) Even when Bruce is "under control" there needs to be an indication that he has difficulty reigning the Hulk in. So I can see where the genesis of "talking him down" came about as an idea, and I don't think it's an awful one.

Further, I actually agree that Natasha being the one to calm Bruce down makes sense given their connection in Avengers and the personalities of everyone else on the team. Tony, Clint, and Thor are obvious nos; Steve is the only other person who maybe could do it. And I can see Natasha wanting to do it because she wants to conquer the Hulk as a fear that she was left with after the Hulk went after her on the Helicarrier (and also have an escape mechanism if that ever happens again). Natasha totally seems like the kind of person who, when she's scared of something, will insert it into her everyday life so she's not afraid any more.

However, the problem with the Natasha/Bruce connection is that there is absolutely no romantic/sexual chemistry between ScarJo and Ruffalo, and while she tried really hard to sell it and generate sparks, there was zilch from Ruffalo's end. It's like Bruce's look of perma-confusion was actually Ruffalo's perma-confusion that he was being directed to be somewhat romantic in those scenes. So Natasha came off like she was working really hard to pursue, and investing a ton of emotional energy in, a guy who was fundamentally uninterested, which...is not the kind of person Natasha totally seems to be. The whole thing did Bruce no favors either, especially since I agree that his adorkable act kind of works around Tony and Thor but pretty much flops when he spends much time around anyone else, Natasha included.

tbh, the Natasha/Bruce stuff has always felt to me less like Whedon was determined to spite the Nat/Clint shippers, and more like Marvel ordered him to inject some romance into the movie and he went for Nat/Bruce because he felt like that would be the most unexpected, subverting-the-audience's-expectations couple. That totally seems like the kind of thing he'd do.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

58 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Yeah, but AoU ended with Bruce experiencing his biggest fear after Wanda forced him to turn and sicced him on a civilian population. I can totally see why that would mess him up enough for him to regress in terms of his control over the Hulk. It's similar to Tony regressing with his PTSD (also because of Wanda). I'm just surprised that he's been stuck inside the Hulk for two frickin years. Ragnarok just made me hate Wanda more than I already do. She really did manage to tear the Avengers apart, and her reward was to get former members' spot on the team. 

I've said this before, but as much as what Wanda did was terrible, Tony's decision to restart work on the Ultron program without telling anyone (except for Bruce, who mysteriously never gets any of the blame for it despite being directly involved twice) was his own choice. And I don't think she could have predicted that the Hulk would charge straight into the most populated area there was, since they were at the shipyard when she told her brother, "I want the big one." Thought he might, perhaps, but up until then she'd limited her attacks to people she considered enemies, Banner included. "We're not at war, Captain." "They are." Considering she ends up in the Raft with a shock collar around her neck and apparently so sedated she's barely conscious, she wasn't entirely unpunished.

[stealinghome]

Quote

I've said this before, but as much as what Wanda did was terrible, Tony's decision to restart work on the Ultron program without telling anyone (except for Bruce, who mysteriously never gets any of the blame for it despite being directly involved twice) was his own choice.

Agreed. The whole "I have to save the world!" thing isn't, in theory, a problem, it's Tony's execution that's the whole problem. (Plus Iron Man 3 shows that Tony was struggling with massive PTSD even before Wanda messed with his mind.)

I was rewatching Avengers and then AoU last week since they've been playing on TV, and when you watch them back to back, it's so striking that the Tony of AoU is saying the exact same things he yelled at Fury for saying in Avengers 1. Tony's doing the exact same things he yelled at Fury for doing in Avengers 1. In retrospect, it seems that Steve's mean-spirited comment on the Helicarrier was prescient--Tony's problem isn't really what Fury is doing, it's that Tony's not in charge of it. Which also makes for a great parallel between CA:TWS and AoU, wherein both Fury and Tony/Bruce find to their horror--and the world's cost--that their preemptive attempts to "save the world" are endangering it.

[Danny Franks]

I'll openly admit I'm a huge Bucky/Natasha 'shipper because of the comics. They were such a great couple, with a realistic build, a well defined relationship, and a mutually supportive dynamic that had Natasha rescue Bucky as often as he rescued her.

So I really want to see them together on the big screen, even if I have no clue whether it would work with the characters as written. But regardless, Natasha/Bruce was horrible. Unconvincing, awkward, and with both actors seeming like they hated it. No chemistry whatsoever. I can't fathom why Whedon chose to do it, other than wanting to put his own, unique stamp on the franchise, with a pairing that has never been written before.

But honestly, I'm pretty much done with the Marvel Cinematic Universe as an overarching franchise. Age of Ultron was mediocre, Cap 3 started well but just turned into Iron Man is Sad and Troubled. I didn't bother with Dr Strange, Spider-Man or Thor 3, and won't bother with Black Panther either. They just don't interest me. About all that does is further Guardians of the Galaxy outings and Captain Marvel.

[Dee]

Dr. Strange was mediocre. It's mainly saved by some awesome special effects work and a scene stealing performance from Benedict Wong.

However, Spiderman & Thor Ragnarok are both really good. Neither movie reinvents the wheel, in terms of genre, but they're both well crafted films.

[Kel Varnsen]

12 minutes ago, Dee said:

Dr. Strange was mediocre. It's mainly saved by some awesome special effects work and a scene stealing performance from Benedict Wong.

However, Spiderman & Thor Ragnarok are both really good. Neither movie reinvents the wheel, in terms of genre, but they're both well crafted films.

Raganarok and Spider-Man were both just a ton of fun which helped them especially after a few super serious movies. Dr Strange was also saved by the creative way Strange defeated the bad guy at the end.

[Wynterwolf]

I actually watched Dr. Strange during a flight.  It wasn't bad, but I was glad that I hadn't spent money to see it.  I'm just not really a BC fan, and it was definitely a vehicle for him, though Benedict Wong was delightful.  

[shireenbamfatheon]

2 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I've said this before, but as much as what Wanda did was terrible, Tony's decision to restart work on the Ultron program without telling anyone (except for Bruce, who mysteriously never gets any of the blame for it despite being directly involved twice) was his own choice. And I don't think she could have predicted that the Hulk would charge straight into the most populated area there was, since they were at the shipyard when she told her brother, "I want the big one." Thought he might, perhaps, but up until then she'd limited her attacks to people she considered enemies, Banner included. "We're not at war, Captain." "They are." Considering she ends up in the Raft with a shock collar around her neck and apparently so sedated she's barely conscious, she wasn't entirely unpunished.

Tony only restarted his work because Wanda triggered his PTSD. He'd already abandoned it at that point.

Quote

 

BRUCE: I thought Ultron was a fantasy.

TONY: Yesterday it was.

 

That doesn't mean he doesn't carry some of the blame, but Wanda undeniably played a big hand in it, especially because she also let him take the scepter expecting him to self-destruct. And Wanda willingly joined Ultron with the intent to kill all Avengers, all of whom were innocent, because her and Pietro were mad at Tony. Hell, they even helped him steal vibranium from Wakanda which Ultron used to attempt to level Sokovia to the ground, killing dozens of people in the process. 

And I think there's no way Wanda didn't expect Hulk to charge toward the city since the whole point of it was to serve as a distraction to draw the Avengers' attention to Hulk and the people. Why would the Avengers care about Hulk frolicking in the woods? She knew what she was doing and she didn't care because she was blinded by revenge. 

Several people in the MCU have been manipulated or brainwashed e.g. Clint, Bucky, Jessica, Bruce, and it's indisputable that they're all victims, but when it comes to Tony, he's held to a completely different standard. Worst part is, Wanda suffers almost zero consequences. She's a twenty-something woman who joined the MCU's equivalent of Nazis to get revenge on a man for something someone went behind his back to do, and Steve literally draws a comparison to him joining the war effort like that's remotely similar to what Pietro and Wanda were doing. She deliberately sicced an innocent man on innocent people and still didn't feel any remorse afterward. It's only when Ultron revealed his plan to wipe out mankind that she changed her mind. And then she put it all on Tony, instead of acknowledging her own part in Ultron's creation. And then she spent her next movie still pissed at Tony, even though she was living in his house, wearing clothes he paid for and eating his food. 

Tony's by no means perfect. I'd say he's the most flawed character in the MCU, but he's the one who's constantly called out for his mistakes and faults, by both characters and the audience (and even himself). How many times has someone brought up Sokovia and/or Ultron in the movies? Wanda, on the other hand, is constantly infantilized in both AoU and CW. Her actions led to Tony and Bruce leaving the team and she got their spot instead, apparently with no resistance from Nat who's supposedly in love with Bruce, or Rhodey, Tony's BFF. She got people in Johannesburg and Sokovia killed, and there are no legal repercussions because she became an Avenger. She played a part in Ultron's creation and aided him in Johanesburg and Wakanda, and it's apparently all Tony's doing. 

And now it turns out Bruce spent two years being Hulk because he was so traumatized. Sorry to be that person, but if the genders had been reversed, I think the reaction would have been completely different. 

[VCRTracking]

27 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Worst part is, Wanda suffers almost zero consequences. She's a twenty-something woman who joined the MCU's equivalent of Nazis to get revenge on a man for something someone went behind his back to do, and Steve literally draws a comparison to him joining the war effort like that's remotely similar to what Pietro and Wanda were doing. She deliberately sicced an innocent man on innocent people and still didn't feel any remorse afterward.

She thought she was joining SHIELD. Hydra hadn't been outed yet.

I've already had endless debates on these boards about whether Wanda was not punished for her actions in AOU and that she was given special treatment because she was a girl. I thought her brother being killed as a result from her actions was punishment enough. If that hadn't happened I'd say she had gotten off scot free. People are going to hold a grudge against her no matter what.  Me, I'm always for  a reformed villain wanting to sincerely make up for their actions and being a hero. Wanda is always brought up as a defense of Tony. I still love Tony even though he's not perfect and fucks up. Some fans might hate him but in-universe he's still an admired and respected hero and businessman while Cap and his allies are wanted fugitives for breaking international law. Rhodes was paralyzed but he doesn't blame Tony for it. He even got Pepper back.

[stealinghome]

Given the fandom’s general reaction to Loki, who is far worse than Wanda, I’m not sure I agree that fans give Wanda a pass because she’s a girl.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

And Wanda didn't even call Natasha a 'mewling quim' in addition to unleashing the Hulk, mindwarping Barton, murdering Coulson, and tossing Thor out of the helicarrier in a plastic box.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Cobalt Stargazer

[Bruinsfan]

23 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I think the best thing about the Black Widow/Bruce connection was the hilariously awkward part of Thor Ragnarok where Thor kept trying to do that stupid "sun's going down" thing. I wonder if that was just Taika Waititi just trying to troll Whedon.

I loved that, but in retrospect it makes a kind of sense for Thor to also have been trained by whoever came up with that calming routine. As of the beginning of AoU he was the only Avenger who could take a punch from the Hulk if it didn't work.

 

3 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

And I think there's no way Wanda didn't expect Hulk to charge toward the city since the whole point of it was to serve as a distraction to draw the Avengers' attention to Hulk and the people. Why would the Avengers care about Hulk frolicking in the woods? She knew what she was doing and she didn't care because she was blinded by revenge.

My impression was the plan was for the Hulk to attack his teammates when he freaked out, what with being near them and at least a couple hundred miles away from Johannesburg. Probably not good for the murderous gunrunners set up in that beached ship, but she didn't zap Banner while he was in the middle of a city full of innocent people.

 

3 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

And then she spent her next movie still pissed at Tony, even though she was living in his house, wearing clothes he paid for and eating his food. 

You mean the US government's house, clothes, and food? Because at the end of AoU it looked like Stark was stepping away from the Avengers and their upstate NY facility was being run by Fury and a resurgent SHIELD. As far as I could tell he set his AI watchdog to confine Wanda despite having neither the authority nor the right to do so.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Bruinsfan

[Raja]

4 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

You mean the US government's house, clothes, and food? Because at the end of AoU it looked like Stark was stepping away from the Avengers and their upstate NY facility was being run by Fury and a resurgent SHIELD. As far as I could tell he set his AI watchdog to confine Wanda despite having neither the authority nor the right to do so.

That wasn't SHIELD at all,  SHIELD was Hydra and Hydra was SHIELD. Rather it was a private Stark funded vigilante group operating no differently then Iron Man did alone when he took his first production model suit of armor and hunted down Ten Rings terrorist in Afghanistan. Thus came the Sokovian Accords in Captain America Civil War where they attempted to enlist the Avengers to work for  a recognized government. At which point some Avengers and their Stark owned assets came under government control

[Kel Varnsen]

3 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

She's a twenty-something woman who joined the MCU's equivalent of Nazis to get revenge on a man for something someone went behind his back to do, and Steve literally draws a comparison to him joining the war effort like that's remotely similar to what Pietro and Wanda were doing. She deliberately sicced an innocent man on innocent people and still didn't feel any remorse afterward.

Wait a sec, Wanda signed up for Hydra? Since it looked like at the end of Winter Soldier she was their captive. Also did they actually ever clarify that the bomb that fell on her house was something Stane sold to someone behind Tony's back? I just can't remember how either of those went down.

 

19 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

I loved that, but in retrospect it makes a kind of sense for Thor to also have been trained by whoever came up with that calming routine. As of the beginning of AoU he was the only Avenger who could take a punch from the Hulk if it didn't work.

Except it didn't look like he was trained at all since he was totally half-assing that suns going down thing, as if he had only ever seen some else do it. Which made it funnier.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

51 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Wait a sec, Wanda signed up for Hydra? Since it looked like at the end of Winter Soldier she was their captive. Also did they actually ever clarify that the bomb that fell on her house was something Stane sold to someone behind Tony's back? I just can't remember how either of those went down.

In AoU, Maria Hill tells Steve that the twins volunteered as guinea pigs for Strucker's experiments, calling it "nuts". Cap responds by saying something like, Right, what's crazier than offering to let a German scientist do experimental procedures on you in order to protect your country? So even though both Wanda and Pietro did seem to be in cells during the end credits of WS, it was a matter of record that they were Strucker's "prized pupils."

That said, the bomb that blew up their house had Stark Industries painted on the side of it, and even if it was purchased through the black market, Tony is enough of a public figure in the fictional world he inhabits that it'd be easy to pin any blame directly on him. For the same reason everyone decided that Bucky had to be the one who committed the bombing that killed all those people, including T'Challa's father, despite having only grainy video footage as proof, because Stark made his fortune in selling weapons.

[Spartan Girl]

While we are discussing characters that may or may not get free passes, what about Bucky? Yes, he was brainwashed and manipulated but it doesn't change the fact that he killed tons of people, including the Starks. That isn't going to change.

At least Bucky, unlike say Loki, owns up to his actions. I'm just sick of the internet meme of "all he wanted was plums" and the fan girls calling him a precious cinnamon roll. Like someone earlier said, I'm all for reformed villains, but stop coddling them, it's nauseating.

[Wynterwolf]

9 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Like someone earlier said, I'm all for reformed villains, but stop coddling them, it's nauseating.

I think Bucky would agree with you.  ;-)

[stealinghome]

Yes, AoU makes explicit that Wanda and Pietro volunteered for HYDRA’s experiments. That said, they were deeply traumatized orphaned teenagers, so probably very easy pickings for Strucker, and I doubt they fully understood what they were signing up for before HYDRA sunk their claws in.

I don’t see the comparison between Steve and the twins as all that unfair, tbh. Steve says it himself—in the twins’ heads, they ARE fighting a war. They signed up to protect Sokovia from all the (Western) nations that didn’t give a shit about how much Sokovia suffered as a satellite/proxy state—and from everything we know about Sokovia, they DID have a point in feeling like the country was constantly under attack and that the rest of the world was just shrugging, if not actively facilitating. The twins let themselves be led to a bad place while Steve didn’t, no question. But I find it hard to say that the point Steve was making doesn’t hold water (especially because once HYDRA started started experimenting on them I’m sure they didn’t hear anything about Tony/the Avengers doing good in the world, they were likely just fed a steady diet of lies/misinformation/“Stark sucks” propaganda).

Did AoU make it explicit that the bombs that killed their parents were sold on the black market, though? I thought the movie didn’t touch the question of whether they were black market or aboveboard one way or the other, so I was actually kind of assuming it WAS an aboveboard, legal sale.

2 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

While we are discussing characters that may or may not get free passes, what about Bucky? Yes, he was brainwashed and manipulated but it doesn't change the fact that he killed tons of people, including the Starks. That isn't going to change.

At least Bucky, unlike say Loki, owns up to his actions. I'm just sick of the internet meme of "all he wanted was plums" and the fan girls calling him a precious cinnamon roll. Like someone earlier said, I'm all for reformed villains, but stop coddling them, it's nauseating.

See, I find Bucky the total inverse of Loki. He has NOTHING to apologize for in my book—I’m hardly a Bucky fangirl, but the guy was tortured, experimented on, and brainwashed such that he didn’t know his own *name*, I can’t hold him responsible for all the people the Winter Soldier killed and I certainly would not term him a villain—yet Bucky still feels bad because he’s a decent human being.

[Captain Carrot]

34 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

Did AoU make it explicit that the bombs that killed their parents were sold on the black market, though? I thought the movie didn’t touch the question of whether they were black market or aboveboard one way or the other, so I was actually kind of assuming it WAS an aboveboard, legal sale.

I don't think AoU ever made it explicit that the weapons were obtained on the black market. However, I always assumed that they semi-legitimately bought from Stark Industries. (Semi-legitimately, because in IM Stark stated that they only sold weapons to the US government, then found out that Stane was selling weapons to other people behind his back). He probably felt guilty that he "allowed" his weapons to fall into the wrong hands.

[ChelseaNH]

6 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

BRUCE: I thought Ultron was a fantasy.

TONY: Yesterday it was.

Ultron was a fantasy yesterday because the technology wasn't available.  Then the mind stone showed up, and suddenly new things were possible.  So no, I don't think Tony's reactivation of the project was due to Wanda's actions.

[VCRTracking]

4 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

7 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

And then she spent her next movie still pissed at Tony, even though she was living in his house, wearing clothes he paid for and eating his food. 

You mean the US government's house, clothes, and food? Because at the end of AoU it looked like Stark was stepping away from the Avengers and their upstate NY facility was being run by Fury and a resurgent SHIELD. As far as I could tell he set his AI watchdog to confine Wanda despite having neither the authority nor the right to do so.

She wasn't even still pissed at him about AOU, she was frustrated  in general being detained because of what happened in Lagos.

[Vera]

9 hours ago, stealinghome said:

Yes, AoU makes explicit that Wanda and Pietro volunteered for HYDRA’s experiments. That said, they were deeply traumatized orphaned teenagers, so probably very easy pickings for Strucker, and I doubt they fully understood what they were signing up for before HYDRA sunk their claws in.

 

Te tie-in comic makes it as Hydra masquerading as S.H.I.E.L.D. 

 

14 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

How many times has someone brought up Sokovia and/or Ultron in the movies? 

 

The Avengers only ever get into it with Tony about Ultron when they first find out he created it. That was all of 2 minutes. No one brings up Tony's culpability in it after that. All through the meeting during CW at which Tony goes on about how they dropped a building on Charles Spencer and how they need to be put in check, I kept waiting for Steve or Nat to point out that they were cleaning up Tony's mess. But they don't. 

I don't understand the idea that Tony gets held responsible for what he does. He sometimes gets called out on his fuck ups. But he's never held responsible to them. Civil War literally ends with nearly everyone who breaks the accords on the run. Except for Tony. 

Tony has never faced legal repercussions for his misdeeds. 

 

Quote

And then she spent her next movie still pissed at Tony, even though she was living in his house, wearing clothes he paid for and eating his food. 

She's not at his house. She's at the compound. The New Avengers facility was set up for the Avengers. Steve, Sam, Nat, Rhodey, Vision, and Wanda aren't living there for free (Wanda and Vision aside, do we know that the rest of them live there? or taking money from Tony? ). They regularly put their lives on the line. They work from there, they train there. It's a job. 

Tony's PTSD is always an excuse for his actions. But Wanda and Pietro were little kids who spend three days trapped in rubble wondering if they were going to die or not. They are then living and surviving in a war-torn country before being recruited into Hydra to serve as experiments. Tony's a 40-something billionaire who can get help a dozen times over. What were the twin's options? 

[Raja]

9 minutes ago, Vera said:

Te tie-in comic makes it as Hydra masquerading as S.H.I.E.L.D. 

 

 

On screen I thought it was clear that Hydra infiltrated SHIELD, the Soviets with the Winter Soldier program and in Age Of Ultron while The Avengers attacked a "Hydra" base the Sokovian Army  seemed to be taken over by Hydra on the inside. The rest of the characters seemed to treat the twins much like Steve Rogers who volunteered for the army and found himself in the Strategic Scientific Reserve.  In that they volunteered to fight for their homeland and were assigned to a unit taken over by Hydra. A local SHIELD unit in Sokovia after the Winter Soldier break up of SHIELD and the twins found themselves in a Hydra controlled base works I guess

[Wynterwolf]

1 hour ago, Vera said:

Tony's PTSD is always an excuse for his actions. But Wanda and Pietro were little kids who spend three days trapped in rubble wondering if they were going to die or not. They are then living and surviving in a war-torn country before being recruited into Hydra to serve as experiments. Tony's a 40-something billionaire who can get help a dozen times over. What were the twin's options? 

And based on the tiny snippet of Tony in the Infinity War Prelude comic, Tony is still

Spoiler

feeling incredibly guilty, but is also still convinced that even together the Avengers can't win (and actively rejects Steve's belief that they need face whatever happens together).  It shows him taking that belief and telling himself that the only way to go is for him to figure out how he can do it alone, while he tinkers with the Iron Man suit.  Which, he'll obviously create a suit that can operate in space, which they will need, so that's good... but he still needs to get over himself and shelve the guilt (which is his biggest weakness, and what has caused him to make so many poor decisions) and realize it isn't all on him alone and he IS part of a team, and to start acting like it.  

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Vera said:

Wanda and Pietro were little kids who spend three days trapped in rubble

With the dead bodies of their parents. As bad as it is that the Winter Soldier killed Howard and Maria Stark, and admittedly it's pretty bad, AoU never states whether or not the older Maximoffs died instantly in the bombing or if they lived for a little while afterwards.

I do have to be a little fair to Stark, though. The incident in Lagos took place at least partly because Crossbones distracted Steve from the fact that he was carrying an explosive device by telling him that Bucky had remembered him in WS, and Steve apparently literally forgot where he was for a second.

[Wynterwolf]

1 minute ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I do have to be a little fair to Stark, though. The incident in Lagos took place at least partly because Crossbones distracted Steve from the fact that he was carrying an explosive device by telling him that Bucky had remembered him in WS, and Steve apparently literally forgot where he was for a second.

Absolutely.  None of them are without (realistic) flaws and it's as much about how they handle and move forward from their mistakes that makes them heroic.  Hopefully they will eventually show Tony figuring out how to handle his mistakes in a healthier way.  

[ChelseaNH]

2 hours ago, Vera said:

They work from there, they train there. It's a job.

If they're not getting a salary, they're at least entitled to room and board.

Unless they're prisoners.  Then they're definitely entitled to room and board.