The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[ChelseaNH]

2 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

So Wanda was always going to flip on Ultron and finding out that he was going to kill everyone on Earth was just a coincidence and irrelevant to her decision making process?

Well, now you're allowing that the fate of everyone on Earth, rather than just Wanda and Pietro, might have been a factor in her decision, so I suppose that's progress.

2 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Tony was in a Rush to create Ultron because of the stuff Wanda put in his head

Which we know because ... ? 

2 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

The fact of the matter is that directly after wanda influenced Tony he created Ultron

The fact of the matter is that directly after acquiring the scepter, Tony created Ultron.  He created Vision after getting his hands on Ultron's vibranium/Mind Stone upgrade.

2 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

So what did Wanda do to Bruce/Hulk that made him think that Wanda was controlling what Cap sees and causing him to act against them

How would I know?  At that point, they know she has mental powers, so the possibility is there.  But Bruce expresses a suspicion; he doesn't state a fact.

[scriggle]

Let's go directly to the source on how/why Tony created Ultron:

To me it's pretty clear Tony had been working on "Ultron" for quite a while and was stymied. Suddenly he has the scepter and sees a shortcut. He is not under any outside influence. He's doing the typical Tony thing of thinking he knows best and damn what anyone else thinks.

And later after Ultron comes to life at the party:

Thor: You think this is funny? This could have been avoided if you hadn't played with something you don't understand...

Tony Stark: I'm sorry... I think it's funny, I think it's a hoot that YOU don't get why we need this!

Bruce Banner: Tony, maybe this might not be the time...

Tony Stark: Really? That's it? You just roll over and show your belly, every time somebody snarls?

Bruce Banner: Only when I've created a murder-bot!

Tony Stark: We didn't, we weren't even close! Were we close to an interface?

Steve Rogers: Well, you did something right, and you did it right here!

To quote Ian Malcolm in Jurassic Park: …the problem with the scientific power that you're [Tony's] using here, it didn't require any discipline to attain it…<snip>You [Tony] didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves, so you don't take any responsibility for it…<snip> [Tony] were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should.

ETA: I'll just leave this article http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/why-tony-stark-real-villain-avengers-age-ultron

Edited August 18, 2017 by scriggle

[supposebly]

Interesting discussion here. I have to agree that I also thought that Stark was ultimately the villain in the Age of Ultron. He is more or less the Mad Scientist, no oversight, no checks, no balances, only his own morality to be applied. Researchers at universities have to justify their research based on their proposals, research grant applications, publications, and other checks and balances. Tony has none of that. 

I was rewatching Iron Man yesterday (still a wonderful movie!) and what struck me during the Mark 2 montage was that Tony spends days and weeks in his shop, the only company he has are his robot arm thingy and Jarvis.

He spends weeks muttering to himself, the robot arm, and Jarvis apart from the occasional (once a day?) conversation with Pepper. He is a very lonely and isolated person when he works and it made me think that Tony seriously has no one to stop him. Bruce is no help, Pepper doesn't know what's going on most of the time and most people can't keep up with him anyway.

[Wynterwolf]

I actually think losing JARVIS in Ultron had a devastating effect on Tony, both from an emotional support standpoint, and to keep him "in check", since JARVIS was often the one to bring up 'concerns' (not unlike the real Jarvis).  It was one of the reason's I found Scott's comment to Tony when he crawled inside Tony's suit in CW about being his conscience and about them "not talking" much any more really on point.  Tony needed help, but for a lot of reasons, couldn't/didn't ask for it, which made him ripe for Ross to manipulate.  Tony knew HE needed to be given limits (i.e. kept in check), or he was afraid of what he would do, and it was probably easy for Ross to convince him that that was true for all of them, especially the ones that were enhanced in some way (which I think were Ross' real targets).     

[Perfect Xero]

6 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

Well, now you're allowing that the fate of everyone on Earth, rather than just Wanda and Pietro, might have been a factor in her decision, so I suppose that's progress.

The entire problem is that "kill everyone on Earth" is so big that it leaves absolutely no other option but for Wanda and Pietro to flip sides. Would they have still flipped if Ultron was only taking out the US and the Avengers instead of the entire human population on Earth (including them and their country)? Given that they were fine with putting a major city in danger of a Hulk attack, I kind of doubt it.

Quote

Which we know because ... ? 

Because as shown in the video posted below your post, when he's selling Bruce on the idea of creating Ultron, he references things from the Nightmare vision as reasons that they need to create Ultron.

Quote

The fact of the matter is that directly after acquiring the scepter, Tony created Ultron.  He created Vision after getting his hands on Ultron's vibranium/Mind Stone upgrade.

Directly after acquiring the scepter and having his mind influenced by Wanda, yes. And the mind stone and vibranium was to build a stronger body for Ultron?

Quote

How would I know?  At that point, they know she has mental powers, so the possibility is there.  But Bruce expresses a suspicion; he doesn't state a fact.

He asks a question that gives us insight into what Wanda likely did to him earlier, the same thing that has him ready to kill Wanda in cold blood.

4 hours ago, scriggle said:

Let's go directly to the source on how/why Tony created Ultron:

To me it's pretty clear Tony had been working on "Ultron" for quite a while and was stymied. Suddenly he has the scepter and sees a shortcut. He is not under any outside influence. He's doing the typical Tony thing of thinking he knows best and damn what anyone else thinks.

All things that Tony said after Wanda had screwed with his head, during which he alludes to his nightmare several times?

It's interesting that you quote Tony directly saying that he and Bruce didn't create Ultron as evidence that he's the one to blame for creating Ultron.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Perfect Xero

[Dandesun]

Bruce and Tony had clearly been planning Ultron. At the very least talking about it. Bruce caught on very quickly when Tony was leading him there before they went into overdrive. And, to me, it makes perfect sense that these guys would be brainstorming that sort of thing. Tony's a mechanical engineer that wants to solve problems and Bruce is a scientist who wants to do the same thing. What's more, these are guys who do want to take preventative measures. Veronica made her appearance in AoU and that was all Bruce and Tony designed to stop Hulk if he got out of control because that's always, always a possibility. So I never interpreted the situation as "Wanda made Tony create Ultron" because it was already an idea that was partially implemented. The scepter provided a jump-start power source and Wanda provided the desperation in Tony to get it done as fast as possible without telling anyone else save Bruce who was already in on it.

Wanda's powers are also really really vague. I never read her interactions with the Avengers in Ultron as her mind-controlling them so much as unleashing their biggest fears or something. Or terrible memories... it's hard to say because Thor's seemed to predict a sort of Ragnarok thing ('we're already dead') as well as giving him a glimpse of the Infinity Stones while Steve's was basically him walking through a manifestation of his own PTSD/inability to come home from the war and Natasha's was reliving the Red Room. I never took her stuff with Bruce/Hulk to be anything more than severing what control he had over the Other Guy rather than actively getting in his head and controlling him. Tony's vision was amping up the PTSD he already had amped up in Avengers with flying through the portal and seeing just how much was out there waiting for them and stoking that fear that they wouldn't be able to stop them (and in fact barely succeeded the first time.)

Tony just developed this need to fix after he was taken hostage and saw what his stolen weapons were being used for. He was negligent and naive about it all before then got a look at what was actually happening (well, part of it... he didn't get wise to Stane until, you know, Stane tried to kill him) but once he shifted he shifted all the way. And the first Iron Man showed that he got obsessive and downright manic when creating and it was followed through in IM2 & 3. He zeroes in on being goal-oriented to the extreme and nothing is going to stop him. Wanda didn't change anything about Tony. There was nothing he did in making Ultron that was remotely out of character. What she did, again, was fuel the desperation and drive. She and the scepter were catalysts but it was already in the works.

As for Steve, well... he was the one person who totally and immediately understood where they (Wanda and Pietro) were coming from. He was helpless and desperate to make a difference once. So while Bruce can question Steve as to whether Wanda's in his head -- and that's fine, like I said I think Wanda severed the minimal control he had managed to develop over the Other Guy and that alone would be enough to make him question things -- I felt that Steve was likely to be the one who would first make the overture to them. "Are you able to help? WILL you?" He got them and their motivation in ways no one else was going to. So while I didn't much care for the hokey "Language!" joke that didn't pay off until the end of the movie ("Fury, you son of a bitch") and didn't even come off right given that Steve swears more than anyone else in the MCU (yes, the swearing is pretty tame all in all but he's still the one that does it) I really liked how he set up Steve understanding Wanda and Pietro being at war and subjecting themselves to experimentation to protect their home because of it.

[scriggle]

13 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

All things that Tony said after Wanda had screwed with his head, during which he alludes to his nightmare several times?

It's interesting that you quote Tony directly saying that he and Bruce didn't create Ultron as evidence that he's the one to blame for creating Ultron.

We obviously interpret this scene differently. To me Tony is in control of himself and not under any outside influence. Yes, he references his nightmare but he also states he's been working on his Ultron defense thing for a while because alien invasion.

Tony says he didn't create Ultron(tm) but what can't be denied is that he was working on his Ultron defense thing and messing with Loki's scepter, alien tech he did not understand, and trying to integrate the two. It integrated on its own because of what he was attempting to do. If he hadn't been trying to use the scepter to upgrade his Ultron defense thing, it Ultron(tm) never would have happened.

A hypothetical:

Take the twins out of the equation. They are not there. They do not exist. Would that change the main plot of AoU?

The Avengers take down Strucker's Hydra base. The Avengers get back Loki's scepter. Does Tony let Thor take it back to Asgard immediately? Or does Tony still prevail upon Thor to stay a few days for a celebration and ask to be allowed to study the scepter?

IMHO Tony would still see the oh so shiny alien tech and be itching to get his hands on it to study it, take it apart, etc. And it would still go down just like in AoU: he'd see it's an AI of some sort and think "oooh I can use this for my Ultron defense thing" and Ultron(tm) would still be born. Tony's so obsessed with creating something to save/protect the world that he will always go down that route. Just as Tony will always think he's the smartest person in the room and his way is always the right way to the point where he doesn't even want to hear any objections his teammate might have. That's Tony's character.

[Bruinsfan]

Or lack of same...

[Perfect Xero]

2 hours ago, scriggle said:

We obviously interpret this scene differently. To me Tony is in control of himself and not under any outside influence. Yes, he references his nightmare but he also states he's been working on his Ultron defense thing for a while because alien invasion.

Tony says he didn't create Ultron(tm) but what can't be denied is that he was working on his Ultron defense thing and messing with Loki's scepter, alien tech he did not understand, and trying to integrate the two. It integrated on its own because of what he was attempting to do. If he hadn't been trying to use the scepter to upgrade his Ultron defense thing, it Ultron(tm) never would have happened.

A hypothetical:

Take the twins out of the equation. They are not there. They do not exist. Would that change the main plot of AoU?

The Avengers take down Strucker's Hydra base. The Avengers get back Loki's scepter. Does Tony let Thor take it back to Asgard immediately? Or does Tony still prevail upon Thor to stay a few days for a celebration and ask to be allowed to study the scepter?

IMHO Tony would still see the oh so shiny alien tech and be itching to get his hands on it to study it, take it apart, etc. And it would still go down just like in AoU: he'd see it's an AI of some sort and think "oooh I can use this for my Ultron defense thing" and Ultron(tm) would still be born. Tony's so obsessed with creating something to save/protect the world that he will always go down that route. Just as Tony will always think he's the smartest person in the room and his way is always the right way to the point where he doesn't even want to hear any objections his teammate might have. That's Tony's character.

Tony has had lots of access to alien tech since Avengers 1, but there's little evidence that he's been studying it or integrating it into his armors or the like.

IMO it's not a foregone conclusion that he would have studied the Scepter without Wanda's tampering. Even less that he would have attempted to directly integrate technology that he didn't create into one of his designs. Tony has, in his previous movies, been shown to be rather thorough in his design process and testing, even when he was stuck in a cave.

[Watermelon]

7 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

Tony has had lots of access to alien tech since Avengers 1, but there's little evidence that he's been studying it or integrating it into his armors or the like.

IMO it's not a foregone conclusion that he would have studied the Scepter without Wanda's tampering. Even less that he would have attempted to directly integrate technology that he didn't create into one of his designs. Tony has, in his previous movies, been shown to be rather thorough in his design process and testing, even when he was stuck in a cave.

Oh, I think it is. This is Tony, who immediately went about downloading all of SHIELDs files the second he was on the ship in Avengers 1.  All while what? Studying Loki's scepter. No way in hell he gets a second crack at figuring out alien technology and just passes it up cuz he's already got a blueprint in place 

[Perfect Xero]

21 minutes ago, Watermelon said:

Oh, I think it is. This is Tony, who immediately went about downloading all of SHIELDs files the second he was on the ship in Avengers 1.  All while what? Studying Loki's scepter. No way in hell he gets a second crack at figuring out alien technology and just passes it up cuz he's already got a blueprint in place 

He downloaded SHIELD's files because he felt like there was something that SHIELD wasn't telling them, Banner and, eventually, Cap agreed with him? It had nothing to do with wanting alien tech.

He also didn't study the scepter in Avengers. He was looking at the research on the Cube (at the request of SHIELD) because they were trying to figure out what Loki was going to do with it.

[anna0852]

I absolutely believe it was Wanda's mind meddling that put Tony over the edge and into creating Ultron. Tony's been creating tech and working various AI's for quite sometime and he's never had something go that spectacularly wrong before. I truly believe her influence clouded his thinking and influenced the outcome.  

As far as messing with alien tech goes, no one had any issue with it when Tony *asked* Thor if he could give it 'the once over' before it goes back to Asgard. All of them had seen that scepter in action before and none of them felt it was dangerous enough that it should be taken off planet right away.

Ultimately I keep coming down on Team Stark (even though I don't *like* Tony that much) for the very simple reason that Tony has been doing his best to do the right thing since the original Iron Man. He got an up-close-and-personal lesson on the mistakes he was making and he's been focusing his whole ever since on making up for that. Moving away from weapons development, building the suit not just to escape to but to take down bad guys (when under no obligation to do so), putting together philanthropic foundations to deal with the damage cause and doing his damndest to keep that damage from happening again. He's bankrolling the Avengers without a second thought, shielded Maria Hill (pardon the pun) when SHIELD fell, trying to act as a mentor to Peter Parker (he needs to work on his communication skills but he's trying!) and he also recognizes that the Avengers can't just be come a vigilante group. With a raging case of PTSD and severe daddy issues to boot.

And for his trouble Cap still writes him off irresponsible playboy with no morals or character. At this point I think that says more about Cap that it does about Tony.

[Watermelon]

4 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

He downloaded SHIELD's files because he felt like there was something that SHIELD wasn't telling them, Banner and, eventually, Cap agreed with him? It had nothing to do with wanting alien tech.

He also didn't study the scepter in Avengers. He was looking at the research on the Cube (at the request of SHIELD) because they were trying to figure out what Loki was going to do with it.

Fair. But once Shield had the scepter, then what? Tony would never let them keep alien tech without knowing exactly what it does, so I'm solified in my belief that tony would have always studied the tech. 

 

I actually don't think he would have used it, though. 

[Wynterwolf]

Started watching The Defenders last night... really enjoyed it (though I'm also glad I had decided to skip Iron Fist S1).  But I am up to ep 3 right now, and I had to laugh at the Matt/Elektra subplot.  When Matt says, "Elektra?" I just couldn't help flashing on Steve saying, "Bucky?"  It will be interesting to see just how far they take the parallels between those two storylines.  

[ChelseaNH]

21 hours ago, anna0852 said:

he's never had something go that spectacularly wrong before

He's never used a possibly sentient alien artifact before.  But sure, let's blame Wanda.

[Perfect Xero]

3 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

He's never used a possibly sentient alien artifact before.  But sure, let's blame Wanda.

How does Tony doing something after Wanda used her powers to manipulate his mind absolve Wanda?

[Wynterwolf]

"Correlation does not equal causation"

It was part of the equation, but certainly not the only element  Fury being gone, and Tony having to step into the political/diplomatic/administrative role for the Avengers as an organization (that he was entirely unsuited for, but there was really no one else to do it), I think, had more of an impact on how things went than anything else, because it exacerbated exponentially the pressure Tony was under, and his sense of responsibility.

Edited August 20, 2017 by Wynterwolf
spelling is hard!

[VCRTracking]

On 8/18/2017 at 3:26 PM, anna0852 said:

And for his trouble Cap still writes him off irresponsible playboy with no morals or character.

I don't believe that's true. I think Tony has proven himself to Cap time and again, but also time and again, Tony continues to mess with things. He's trying to make up for his mistakes but he keeps making bigger mistakes.

I'd be mad if Wanda continued to mindf**k people after Age of Ultron but she hasn't. Not even tempted to do so. As far as we know she's stopped messing with people's heads andonly uses her telekinesis.

Also in rewatch the decision to have James Spader be the voice of Ultron is even more bonkers(to use Jason Manzoukas' term from "How Did This Get Made" podcast). Joss Whedon decided to make a lot of unexpected and unconventional creative choices for AoU and that might be one of the top.

Edited August 20, 2017 by VCRTracking

[romantic idiot]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

Also in rewatch the decision to have James Spader be the voice of Ultron is even more bonkers(to use Jason Manzoukas' term from "How Did This Get Made" podcast). Joss Whedon decided to make a lot of unexpected and unconventional creative choices for AoU and that might be one of the top.

Why do you think so?

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, romantic idiot said:

Why do you think so?

Well there are ways to do Ultron, and that sure as hell wasn't the obvious choice.

Also the farm scenes weren't something you would do in a superhero movie. Whether they worked or not is up to debate.

[HunterHunted]

27 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Well there are ways to do Ultron, and that sure as hell wasn't the obvious choice.

Also the farm scenes weren't something you would do in a superhero movie. Whether they worked or not is up to debate.

What would be the the non-Spader obvious choice?

I'm actually a big fan of the farm scenes.

[Wynterwolf]

AoU just felt weird to me all the way around.  I like a lot of it in theory, but the execution...?  It just didn't feel like it came together quite right.  Like it was partly still stuck in the '90s (like the party scene... that should have been fun, but instead it felt dated to the point that it could have even fit in a '70s throwback film), but also still current MCU-ish.  I liked individual scenes, or even ideas of scenes, more than I liked the whole.  But I've only watched it a couple of times, because it's definitely my least favorite MCU film.  

 

eta: I feel like I need to add a disclaimer that I posted this before I saw anything on the JW news today.  And I actually felt this way about this movie even before I'd known it was a JW movie.

Edited August 20, 2017 by Wynterwolf

[Morrigan2575]

18 hours ago, romantic idiot said:

Why do you think so?

 

17 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Well there are ways to do Ultron, and that sure as hell wasn't the obvious choice.

Also the farm scenes weren't something you would do in a superhero movie. Whether they worked or not is up to debate.

I'm curious as well. I actually thought using Spader for Ultron was a great decision. 

Is it that Spader wasn't the typical evil/villain voice but brought an almost human quality to Ultron?

[ChelseaNH]

On 8/19/2017 at 7:29 PM, Perfect Xero said:

How does Tony doing something after Wanda used her powers to manipulate his mind absolve Wanda?

If you start with the premise that Wanda is to blame for Ultron's villainy, it doesn't.  But then, what would?

If you don't start with that premise, then the influence of the scepter (which we've seen before) is adequate explanation on it's own, so blaming Wanda is not a logical imperative.

[Vikitty]

Gwyneth Paltrow has been confirmed to be in Avengers 4; she was on set filming with RDJ, Jon Favreau, and Mark Ruffalo today. Squeeeee!

Spoiler

Set pics show her sporting a whopping big diamond ring on her left hand but people are equally speculating whether it’s Paltrow who’s engaged (she’s not in costume in the candids) or if Tony did indeed pop the Q after Homecoming.

Set photos: http://letsgetdowney.tumblr.com/post/164492708128

RDJ’s Instagram: 

Edited August 23, 2017 by Valerie

[Wynterwolf]

YAY!  So glad to see Pepper back!!  And I can't imagine them having that line of dialog in Homecoming if they weren't going to follow through with it.  **fingers crossed**

[Vikitty]

Hmmm. Okay, so news is saying this is filming for Avengers 4, but both RDJ and Jon captioned their IG photos as “Infinity War.” Which is Avengers 3. Now I’m confused. I thought Infinity War filming had wrapped? Not that I’ve been following it that much.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 8/15/2017 at 10:08 PM, scriggle said:

I agree. Oversight is good. If the UN had approached the Avengers and said "we need to work something out here in the way you operate," I think all the Avengers would have been on board with that. Instead they were handed an ultimatum.

I wonder if Cap would. He seemed pretty adamant that he did't trust anyone having any possible oversight of the Avengers (which seems dumb and like something that would set a terrible precedent). He was so stubborn about that, to the point that I thought it didn't work. I think if they presented it your way and have him more pissed about how it was being handled, rather than the result, it would have worked a hell of a lot better.

[Perfect Xero]

1 hour ago, Valerie said:

Hmmm. Okay, so news is saying this is filming for Avengers 4, but both RDJ and Jon captioned their IG photos as “Infinity War.” Which is Avengers 3. Now I’m confused. I thought Infinity War filming had wrapped? Not that I’ve been following it that much.

Infinity War was originally supposed to be split over Avengers 3 and 4 and Marvel still hasn't released a new title for Av4 since announcing the 2 movies would have different names, so maybe they didn't get the memo?

[Kel Varnsen]

6 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Infinity War was originally supposed to be split over Avengers 3 and 4 and Marvel still hasn't released a new title for Av4 since announcing the 2 movies would have different names, so maybe they didn't get the memo?

From what i read the title of 4 may be a spoiler for Infinity War. I suspect they will still be fighting Thanos in that movie aswell just with a different title. 

[Joe]

So this is depressing. From James Gunn:

Quote

One of the things I’m doing with creating Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3 – that will take place after the next two Avengers movies – and it will help to setup the next 10-20 years of Marvel movies. It’s going to really expand the cosmic universe. We’re going to be setting up new characters.

Did no one at Marvel see Avengers 2? Trying to use one movie to set up a dozen others doesn't work! Just concentrate on making one good movie. Once that's done, then concentrate on just making one more good movie.

As an interesting note, I counted up the number of MCU movies I would happily watch again sometime. Five. I enjoyed only five to the point where I'd rewatch them. Considering how excited people get, I just find myself underwhelmed. For the curious: Cap 1, Cap 2, Iron Man 3, GOTG 1, Avengers 1.

[romantic idiot]

I guess that's the difference between you and me because I'd watch them all again (and have). Except Hulk. Whereas other lauded ones re usually too sad and depressing for a rewatch.

[scriggle]

3 hours ago, Joe said:

Trying to use one movie to set up a dozen others doesn't work! Just concentrate on making one good movie. Once that's done, then concentrate on just making one more good movie.

THIS! Their universe set-up always seems to come at the expense of whatever story they're trying to tell for a particular hero(s). Especially trying to set-up the next decade or two worth of movies AND new characters; that is insane.

3 hours ago, Joe said:

As an interesting note, I counted up the number of MCU movies I would happily watch again sometime. Five. I enjoyed only five to the point where I'd rewatch them. Considering how excited people get, I just find myself underwhelmed. For the curious: Cap 1, Cap 2, Iron Man 3, GOTG 1, Avengers 1.

My list is: IM1, Cap1, Cap2, GotG1, Avengers1, and probably unpopular opinion Thor1.

Those I'll watch whenever they're on TV, commercials and all, despite having the dvds.

[supposebly]

Hm. Rewatchable for me: Thor 1 (Asgard is so pretty!), IM1, IM3, Avengers1, Winter Soldier (mostly because of the sequence of Fury getting shot at in his car). Does the Hulk movie count? I actually kinda like it. At least the first half.

I still haven't rewatched Civil War mainly because every time I think about it, the whole Accord thing just makes no sense, so the whole movie makes no sense and it feels like a season 9 Supernatural episode. All that manufactured angst for no good reason because people are not properly talking to each other nor are taking the time to listen.

And I still don't quite understand why Steve HAD to go down with that plane right there in CA1.

I don't like Age of Ultron for many reasons but the main one is the creation of Vision. He seems too overpowered and badly colored, so they put him in a terrible sweater and babysit Wanda later in CW. I liked him better as Jarvis.

I hate Guardians of the Galaxy. The first one, I had no idea what was going on and I don't understand the appeal of Chris Pratt, a tree with the vocab of 1,  Zoe Saldana in ANOTHER major franchise, and a racoon, so I never saw the second one.

Can you tell I know nothing of comic books?

[stealinghome]

Endlessly rewatchable for me are Thor 1, Avengers 1, and Winter Soldier.

"If it's on TV I usually will put it on" are Cap 1, IM 1, Avengers 2, and Natasha's fight scenes in IM 2. 

The rest are just kind of there for me, ranging from "good drinking movie" to a strong "meh."

[Hybridcookie]

As everyone else is doing it, my rewatchable Marvel films, Thor 1, Iron Man 1, Avengers 1, Thor 2, Avengers 2, Ant Man, GOTG 1+2

I thought Civil War was mostly boring, but I do like when 'team prison break' (Clint, Wanda, Scott and Sam) are on screen. Oh, and I like T'Challa

Edited August 24, 2017 by Hybridcookie

[Vera]

I have a question, so we know that 117 countries signed the accords. Assuming that there are 195 member states, would the accords be applied in all the countries? Or would the other 78 be relatively Avenger safe? 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Vera

[Raja]

3 hours ago, Vera said:

I have a question, so we know that 117 countries signed the accords. Assuming that there are 195 member states, would the accords be applied in all the countries? Or would the other 78 be relatively Avenger safe? 

It wasn't just the Avengers but rather what Vision called the exponential increase of the Enhanced beings. From there you have to jump to the ABC side of the MCU with the Inhumans from non signatory states being potential mercenaries acting outside of their borders. Sort of like the North Korean secret service bombing a South Korean delegation in Burma in 1983. The North Koreans being illegal but we did not turn the Korean War hot again. That the Avengers operate out of New York, the United States is suppose to see that they abide by the decisions of the international council about then crossing borders to act, so the council can decide the avengers are needed in the rouge states while the enhanced in the rouge states don't awnser to the international body. The movies don't have enough time to get to a powerful signatory state having a permanent veto like happens to see that the UN Security Council really insures that there isn't really a United Earth Forces like The Avengers are almost set to be, but rather individual national interest from which the Avengers would be lent out to, while they would shield some places from the big stick acting  for internal politic interest.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Raja

[Morrigan2575]

On 8/24/2017 at 4:38 AM, Hybridcookie said:

As everyone else is doing it, my rewatchable Marvel films, Thor 1, Iron Man 1, Avengers 1, Thor 2, Avengers 2, Ant Man, GOTG 1+2

 

 

Me too me too ?

My rewatchable MCU films. Iron Man 1, Capt 1, 2 and 3 (Capt movies are my favorite), GotG 1 & 2, Avengers 1 & 2 and, surprisingly (to me) Doctor Strange.

[HunterHunted]

On 8/24/2017 at 4:16 AM, Vera said:

I have a question, so we know that 117 countries signed the accords. Assuming that there are 195 member states, would the accords be applied in all the countries? Or would the other 78 be relatively Avenger safe? 

Even though 20th Century Fox has the rights, I'm pretty sure Latveria isn't a signatory. Genosha probably didn't sign either.

Is K'un Lun included as part of China or Tibet?

My rewatchable MCU films are Iron Man 1 & 3, Captain America 1, 2, & 3, Avengers 1, and Guardians of the Galaxy 1 & 2.

[AES13]

My rewatchables are: Iron Man 1 and 3, Capt 1 and 2, Avengers 1, 2 and 3 (Civil War); I also don't mind Ant-Man and Dr. Strange.  I own pretty much all of them except Thor 1 & 2 which, apart from Chris Hemsworth's physique and the character of Darcy, didn't do much for me.  I am keeping my fingers crossed for Thor: Ragnarok because the trailer was awesome and there's a distinct change in tone.

I try not to rewatch them that often because it turns into a marathon every time.  :)

[HunterHunted]

On 8/23/2017 at 7:53 PM, supposebly said:

Hm. Rewatchable for me: Thor 1 (Asgard is so pretty!), IM1, IM3, Avengers1, Winter Soldier (mostly because of the sequence of Fury getting shot at in his car). Does the Hulk movie count? I actually kinda like it. At least the first half.

And I still don't quite understand why Steve HAD to go down with that plane right there in CA1.

I don't like Age of Ultron for many reasons but the main one is the creation of Vision. He seems too overpowered and badly colored, so they put him in a terrible sweater and babysit Wanda later in CW. I liked him better as Jarvis.

I hate Guardians of the Galaxy. The first one, I had no idea what was going on and I don't understand the appeal of Chris Pratt, a tree with the vocab of 1,  Zoe Saldana in ANOTHER major franchise, and a racoon, so I never saw the second one.

Can you tell I know nothing of comic books?

Is that The Incredible Hulk with Ed Norton? I rewatch that all the time. Just watched this week. Except for Michael K. Williams' weird cameo and that Tim Roth is like 5'6", I quite like the movie even though it was apparently a shit show of a production.

Steve had to go down with the plane in Cap 1 because it had an autopilot set for New York and Steve couldn't disarm the weapons on board.

Vision is hilariously overpowered. He's overpowered in the comics too. They had to have him babysit Wanda because they needed to set up their great love affair. Wanda is also unreasonably overpowered in the comics. In House of M, she warps all of reality.

There's not much to Guardians plotwise, but there is a lot of weird character relationship stuff. For example, Gamorra and Nebula were both adopted and raised by Thanos. Thanks pitted them against each other. They hate each, but they hate him more. Thanos killed their families and destroyed their planets. Gamorra and it's implied that Nebula have been biding their time and waiting for an opportunity to kill Thanos.

[Bruinsfan]

The original Avengers movie is perhaps my most-enjoyed film in the last decade, and I always get sucked into rewatching when it's broadcast even though I own it on DVD. I'll usually watch the Captain America movies, Age of Ultron, and Thor if I run across them. I liked the first and third Iron Man movies and GotG, but don't feel any particular urge to keep watching them (probably because of RDJ fatigue on the first two). The Incredible Hulk and Thor: the Dark World weren't particularly good in my opinion, and I'm lucky I haven't broken my remote control given how frantically I switch away from Iron Man 2 if it appears when I'm channel surfing.

[Wynterwolf]

The two I re-watch the most are Cap 2 & Cap 3 because I usually watch them together like a Part 1 & Part 2, and I kinda re-watch them a lot.  And periodically I'll start with Cap 1 and make it a mini-marathon.  Other favs are Iron Man 1&2, Thor 1 & Ant Man.  The rest I'll watch occasionally, except Ultron, I've only watched that a few times, but I do think what happened in it is important to know for the rest of the series.  I've watched Dr. Strange once on a flight from the west coast to the east coast, it was fine.  And I adore Groot, but I don't feel much of a connection to GotG (have yet to see GotG2, but I'll probably be picking up the DVD this week when I go to pick up Star Wars Rebels S3). 

[BetterButter]

[Hybridcookie]

This is probably a stupid question, but I really don't want to google it. In the comics is Wasp just a name? Or does she interact with wasps just like Scott does with ants? 'Cause I don't think I'll able to watch it if there'll be wasps involved

[starri]

She can control insects just like Scott (at least in the comics), but almost never does.

Primarily she can shrink like he can, and when she's small she has wings that sprout from her back so she can fly.  She also fires these electrical blasts she calls stingers.

[Hybridcookie]

Okay, that sounds promising - at least she won't need a wasp to fly. Thank you for that info.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 8/16/2017 at 1:13 PM, Dandesun said:

 And that's not the narrative. The narrative is that Steve and Bucky were so close, so deep in each others pockets, so ingrained in each others lives that only losing Bucky would cause Steve to shift from 'I don't want to kill anyone' to 'I won't rest until Hydra is wiped out of existence' and only Steve would be able to say one word 'Bucky?' and shake the Soldier's programming to the very core to the point where they had to torture him all over again to wipe it out.

I could actually deal with it if this was the narrative, that if it comes to a choice for Steve between anyone else and Bucky, anyone else is shit out of luck because of some dysfunction or PTSD or whatever term you would care to use. Steve tells Wanda after the catastrophe in Lagos that he got distracted specifically because Rumlow mentioned that Bucky remembered him in Winter Soldier, and because he got distracted he didn't realize the guy had a bomb. If that was the narrative, that the second Barnes' name comes up, Steve loses the plot of what he's supposed to be focused on because he's codependent or somehow screwed up, that would be okay, because I don't mind characters who have an obvious Achilles heel.

But that's not the narrative. They can't have Steve be fucked up and making mistakes out of feeling lost or insecure or just plain wrong, because that's Tony's job. They have to present Steve as making the morally correct choice to protect Bucky from the authorities and T'Challa because they think he did something he didn't do, and making the morally correct choice to protect him from Tony because he was brainwashed when he killed Maria and Howard in cold blood. Howard was never his friend? He might not even have known Maria, even though he tells Tony in Civil War that he was glad Howard finally got married? Tony and Cap were never really friends? Bucky's the only thing that means anything to him, even above Peggy, who he may or may not have been falling in love with? Who we see him mourning over when he attended her funeral? All right, fine.

But if all of that is true, then Steve's just as much of a putz as Tony is, if not more so. Or at least just as screwed in the head, only the movies never present him that way. Ultron called Cap "God's righteous man, pretending you could live without a war." Since Tony created Ultron, maybe that's how Stark sees him, but notice that in Tony's Wanda-induced hallucination, it's Steve who says, "You could have saved us. Why didn't you do more?" Because maybe in Steve's eyes, Tony really is just a suit of armor while he is the level-headed voice of reason who thinks everyone should work together. Unless Bucky happens to wander into the room or come up in conversation, and then you'd better shift for yourself. If they would ever expand on this dark side Rogers allegedly has, that would be more satisfying than just "Tony is always wrong and Steve is always right."

[Wynterwolf]

8 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

But if all of that is true, then Steve's just as much of a putz as Tony is, if not more so. Or at least just as screwed in the head, only the movies never present him that way. Ultron called Cap "God's righteous man, pretending you could live without a war." Since Tony created Ultron, maybe that's how Stark sees him, but notice that in Tony's Wanda-induced hallucination, it's Steve who says, "You could have saved us. Why didn't you do more?" Because maybe in Steve's eyes, Tony really is just a suit of armor while he is the level-headed voice of reason who thinks everyone should work together. Unless Bucky happens to wander into the room or come up in conversation, and then you'd better shift for yourself. If they would ever expand on this dark side Rogers allegedly has, that would be more satisfying than just "Tony is always wrong and Steve is always right."

I guess I don't see either one of them as a putz.  I see them both as complex, heroic, flawed humans.  Both with wants and needs and Achilles heels specific to their life experiences.  They are both protectors, but because they have wildly different strengths and personalities, it comes out in different ways.  I've been rewatching a lot recently, just finished the First Avengers, and in the scene when they were all sniping at each other (I've come to believe the only one affected by the scepter was Banner, because of the gamma rays, and that was Loki's plan), it was mainly because none of them knew each other personally, all they knew was their 'public image'.

I know that in the comic Steve and Tony are close friends, but in the MCU, they don't know each other.  They know OF each other, but in that first Avenger movie, who they each are under the image is completely unknown to the other, and Tony's public image is basically trash (WE know differently, because we've seen him, but Steve doesn't... and while Steve knew Howard, I've never gotten the sense that they were friends, they respected each other's talent, but that was all... in fact Steve thought of Howard was a rival for Peggy), and Tony (understandably) has daddy issues up to wazoo and Howard put Steve on a pedestal, so of course Tony was going to go in with resentment over that.   And I think as it's played out, Tony's fear of himself, and Steve's trying to be someone he's not (and never has been) because everyone else expects it, is how we got where we are.  Tony needs support around him, and he needs to let himself accept it and trust it, Steven needs to figure out who HE wants to be, not who everyone else wants him to be, and let himself be that person.  And Bucky is a big part of that for Steve, because Bucky knows him, who his is inside, better than anyone ever has, even Peggy.   

 

eta - one of the big differences I see between Tony and Steve that I think makes Tony actions particularly  in CW less appealing in general, is that his POV is heavily steeped in privilege, where Steve's POV is from a poor, sickly kid from the depression.  So Tony doesn't always realize the ramifications of things, particularly the way Steve does, because he can ignore it (like he did with the Accords, practically right after they were signed), but other's can't.  And I admit I was actually hoping for some acknowledgement of that in Homecoming, but didn't get it.  

Edited September 2, 2017 by Wynterwolf