The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[Morrigan2575]

7 minutes ago, Anduin said:

Who? I thought I heard a German or Scandinavian accent, but I'm not sure.

 

Spoiler

We should tell him the truth".  That's Patrick Stewart's voice...hopefully we get some X-Men

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Morrigan2575

[Guest]

 

Moon Knight’s super bowl spot. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Guest

[Anduin]

12 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

 

12 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

 

  Reveal spoiler

We should tell him the truth".  That's Patrick Stewart's voice...hopefully we get some X-Men

 

 

Oh. That's the one I thought was Germanic. My ears, seriously. Well, that would be nifty.

Also, I see a minotaur in there! Minotaurs > centaurs. This is looking more and more like a watch. But it depends on conditions as to cinema vs home.

[Bruinsfan]

The minotaur is almost certainly

Spoiler

Rintrah from the comics.

 

[tv echo]

Marvel Boss Kevin Feige Says Endgame Is 'Final' Avengers Movie
BY NARAYAN LIU    FEBRUARY 17, 2022
https://www.cbr.com/endgame-final-avengers-kevin-feige/ 

Quote

Speaking on the most recent episode of Marvel Studios Assembled, centered on Eternals, Feige said, "Marvel Studios and the Marvel Cinematic Universe is now past their tenth anniversary and with the release of the final Avengers movie, we've finally completed a 22-movie Infinity Saga."

 

[swanpride]

Well, they aren't really needed anymore, are they? We know have Superheroes turning up in each other movies all the time. And IF they do another BIG Team up movie, they can always call it something else. 

[FnkyChkn34]

There are only 2 of the original 6 Avengers left anyway.  (Well, we can probably debate if Hawkeye is really retired or not... so 3 at the most.  But then Bruce also seemed done...)   I think it's obvious that "Avengers" movies are done, but it's also just as obvious that the MCU is still going strong with plenty of other characters and stories.  They've already hinted at the Young Avengers and there's Sam as Captain America... they'll be fine with no new "Avengers" movies.

[BaggythePanther]

There has been a question as to who is officially part of the Avengers lineup after Endgame. Even before Endgame the Avengers had expanded beyond the OG 6. From what I’ve heard the lineup changed in the comics so it’s not unreasonable to assume they’d keep the name and just add new heroes. So I’m wondering if they’re just going to scrap the “Avengers” name from the titles moving forward, or are they just done with the Avengers as a concept, because that doesn’t seem necessary. And it’d be nice if people could stop assuming some other white male hero would take over instead of the guy who is literally replacing the previous leader of the Avengers. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

 And it’d be nice if people could stop assuming some other white male hero would take over instead of the guy who is literally replacing the previous leader of the Avengers. 

Who is left? Half of the original six (Tony, Nat, Steve) are deceased. Clint seems to have passed his mantle on to Kate Bishop so he can retire, and Thor may or not not be giving his status to Jane Foster. Banner? Who knows, since the rights issue is still in play. I'm going to say this carefully, because I like Sam, but there's no reason Rhodey couldn't take over outside of Don Cheadle not wanting to continue on as the character. He's also former military, and keeping Tony Stark on a more or less even keel was a feat in itself. I kind of wish they'd give Captain America as a concept a rest, no matter who is wearing the uniform. Same thing goes for Iron Man, if only because the rumors of Tom Cruise showing up as a variant are so annoying. The new crop of characters (Kate, Peter, Yelena, Monica) are either too young and inexperienced in leadership roles or have too much going on to take charge. Stephen Strange and Wanda Maximoff have to fix what Strange broke. Carol could, I guess, but since she's usually not earthbound we'd just be wondering where she is during any crisis that happens. And Barnes wouldn't want it. I never saw any reason he'd even want the shield, regardless of the clamoring that he'd be a great Captain America, so actually being the new face of the Avengers is something he'd turn down flat.

[shantown]

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

Feige said, "Marvel Studios and the Marvel Cinematic Universe is now past their tenth anniversary and with the release of the final Avengers movie, we've finally completed a 22-movie Infinity Saga."

And if they change their minds later, this could easily read meaning the last Avengers move of the original Saga, and in a few years they have a new group team up under that name.

[BaggythePanther]

@Cobalt Stargazer I’ve never seen any official word but for example the article linked above theorizes that Doctor Strange could be the next leader of the Avengers. But as you pointed out that doesn’t make much sense. Having Rhodes take over is actually a good idea, I’m just curious how much longer Cheadle will be around after Armor Wars.

[Kel Varnsen]

We have at least 3 super heroes now based in San Francisco. The obvious solution is to set up the West Coast Avengers financed and supplied by Hank Pym.

[Guest]

 

1 hour ago, BaggythePanther said:

Having Rhodes take over is actually a good idea, I’m just curious how much longer Cheadle will be around after Armor Wars.

To me the problem with Rhodes is that he is too tied to military. Plus, as you said, it seems unlikely that Cheadle will be involved enough to take that role.

[tv echo]

Edited February 18, 2022 by tv echo

[tv echo]

The Godfather Director Criticizes Marvel & More Blockbusters
By Savannah Sanders   February 17, 2022
https://thedirect.com/article/marvel-blockbusters-godfather 

Quote

In an interview with GQ  about plans for his Megalopolis film, legendary director Francis Ford Coppola shared his thoughts on today's film industry, joining the ranks of other Hollywood filmmakers who are anything but a fan of the Marvel Studios machine. 

Much like Dune's Denis Villeneuve who claimed Marvel films are "cut and paste," The Godfather director asserted that, "A Marvel picture is one prototype movie that is made over and over and over and over and over again to look different:"

“There used to be studio films. Now there are Marvel pictures. And what is a Marvel picture? A Marvel picture is one prototype movie that is made over and over and over and over and over again to look different."

Coppola's criticism wasn't limited to just the MCU. The director also took issue with "even the talented people," including Denis Villeneuve, for having "the same sequence:"

"Even the talented people—you could take Dune, made by Denis Villeneuve, an extremely talented, gifted artist, and you could take No Time to Die, directed by…Gary? Cary Fukunaga—extremely gifted, talented, beautiful artists, and you could take both those movies, and you and I could go and pull the same sequence out of both of them and put them together. The same sequence where the cars all crash into each other. They all have that."

This isn't the first time Coppola has condemned Marvel films and the superhero genre. 

In 2019, the director argued that Marvel films aren't cinema because "we expect to learn something from cinema," and even referred to The Irishman's Martin Scorcese's issue with the franchise, saying, "He didn't say it's despicable, which I just say it is."
*  *  *
Directors' claims that Marvel movies are all the same is an example of Hollywood's own echo chamber. Recent years, and especially Marvel's Disney+ series, have shown that each MCU project is unique and distinct from the rest in terms of genre, style, and tone.

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by tv echo

[Anduin]

15 minutes ago, tv echo said:

The Godfather Director Criticizes Marvel & More Blockbusters
By Savannah Sanders   February 17, 2022
https://thedirect.com/article/marvel-blockbusters-godfather 

 

Always annoys me. It's easy to build without tearing down. It's also easy to be polite. "Yeah, they're good fun, but not the kind of movie I want to make. Moving on..."

Maybe they think they're rebels, going against the grain. Trashing something so many people loved. But it just seems bad taste, and potentially alienating their own audience. People can like the flashy crowdpleasers and different kinds of movies. And maybe from an actor's standpoint, would you want to be in a movie from a director who just trashed your last job? I can't imagine so.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

The Godfather Director Criticizes Marvel & More Blockbusters
By Savannah Sanders   February 17, 2022
https://thedirect.com/article/marvel-blockbusters-godfather 

 

🥱Not only is he not saying anything new he also exposes that he isn’t actually watching these movies. Which is fine but stop making blanket statements as though you have some authority. Also anyone who defends Roman Polanski needs to take several seats because their judgement is clearly worthless. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Not that we always help our own case, because we don't:



For all of the criticisms that Marvel movies are all alike, we can be as bad as Star Wars fans when the franchise tries something different. We're not as mindlessly adoring as Scorsese and whoever else likes to portray us as being, which is the most annoying part of all this, as if we're just lining up out of blind Whatever and don't criticize or find fault on our own.

[Spartan Girl]

21 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

For all of the criticisms that Marvel movies are all alike, we can be as bad as Star Wars fans when the franchise tries something different.

And that’s often why the MCU goes back to pander to its loudest fan base at the cost of good storytelling and character development. Hence, why we got stuck with the Steve/Peggy Endgame and the collateral damage it caused.

[swanpride]

I don't think that anyone was screaming particularly loud about Steve and Peggy as the only possible endgame. It's more the way the mistreat Sharon which might be influenced by fans who are way too hung up over a relationship which isn't really weird at all. At least not weirder than having a relationship with the sister or cousin of your ex. 

 

Anyway, I can respect directors or actors who prefer to work in another direction. But I can't stand this kind of sneering over movies the audience loves, because what those people are actually claiming is that the audience are a bunch of sheeples which are easily pleased and wouldn't recognise a good movie anyway. In reality, it is very difficult to make ONE movie which connects to the audience, never mind making over 20 of them. 

[Starfish35]

2 hours ago, Dani said:

Also anyone who defends Roman Polanski needs to take several seats because their judgement is clearly worthless. 

👆

[swanpride]

Oh, btw, I enjoyed Eternals. It could have been better, but I very much hope for a sequel. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

5 hours ago, swanpride said:

I don't think that anyone was screaming particularly loud about Steve and Peggy as the only possible endgame. It's more the way the mistreat Sharon which might be influenced by fans who are way too hung up over a relationship which isn't really weird at all. At least not weirder than having a relationship with the sister or cousin of your ex.

I don't know, though, because isn't it all of a piece? Sharon was mistreated in equal parts to give Natasha more screentime and because she was seen as a spoiler both for Steve and Peggy and Steve and Bucky. Let's be honest, mostly for Steve and Bucky, and this is an old subject so I won't linger over it. Then Steve farts off into the past so he can be with...who, some alternate version of Peggy Carter who didn't live a long, full life without him? Becoming Sharon's uncle in the process, and that's not even touching on the stuff about messing with time and consequences (or lack thereof) and hey, Wanda, what's up? Oh, right, last we saw her she's living as some hermit because hijacking other people's lives to be happy is wrong. Grr.

[Guest]

On 2/18/2022 at 8:55 AM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Not that we always help our own case, because we don't:



For all of the criticisms that Marvel movies are all alike, we can be as bad as Star Wars fans when the franchise tries something different.

Except it was the critics that drove that particular bandwagon in a way that felt like punishment for Chloe Zhao working for Marvel.

In general Marvel fans have embraced changes. The movies and shows that diverge from the standard superhero formula are among the best received. Just look at the reaction to WandaVision compared to Falcon and the Winter Soldier. On paper one of those was a massive risk and the other the safe choice. Audiences loved the risk and were lukewarm of the sure thing. 

There is a segment of the fanbase that reacts very badly to change but it has nothing to do with plot or formula changes. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Guest

[benteen]

Coppola was a great director who collapsed under his own ego and excess and hasn't made a great film in decades.  If it wasn't for one amazing decade (and it was an amazing decade), he would be a director that no one remembered.

[Bruinsfan]

11 hours ago, Dani said:

🥱Not only is he not saying anything new he also exposes that he isn’t actually watching these movies. Which is fine but stop making blanket statements as though you have some authority. Also anyone who defends Roman Polanski needs to take several seats because their judgement is clearly worthless. 

Add in someone who chooses to produce films with a director who did prison time for molesting the 12-year-old star of a movie he previously produced. Coppola can STFU forever as far as I'm concerned.

[swanpride]

I don't think that anyone was really happy with Steve going back in time. After all, one of the main complains fans had about Civil war was that it sidelined the relationship between Steve and Bucky in favour of everyone else. (And then they did the same in Infinity War. And then in Endgame. And then they didn't even have the decency to give Bucky the time he deserved to conclude his arc properly in Falcon in the Winter Soldier...

 

What is it with the writers pushing Bucky aside? 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, swanpride said:

I don't think that anyone was really happy with Steve going back in time. After all, one of the main complains fans had about Civil war was that it sidelined the relationship between Steve and Bucky in favour of everyone else. (And then they did the same in Infinity War. And then in Endgame. And then they didn't even have the decency to give Bucky the time he deserved to conclude his arc properly in Falcon in the Winter Soldier...

 

What is it with the writers pushing Bucky aside? 

I think this is the downside of having the same writers handle the Captain America trilogy, Infinity War and Endgame. They largely sidelined Steve’s relationship with Bucky from the very beginning. They set it up so that Peggy was is one defining relationship. They shortchanged Sharon by trying to make her Peggy 2.0 and then tossed her aside when they got to play with the original version again through time travel. They were clearly in love with Peggy and couldn’t let go of the fact that they couldn’t give Steve and Peggy a happy ending originally so they just found a way to do it in the end even if it trampled over their own work.

I’ve never thought that Steve’s ending was capitulation to Steggy fans but because the writers themselves are Steggy shippers. 

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

I think this is the downside of having the same writers handle the Captain America trilogy, Infinity War and Endgame. They largely sidelined Steve’s relationship with Bucky from the very beginning. They set it up so that Peggy was is one defining relationship. They shortchanged Sharon by trying to make her Peggy 2.0 and then tossed her aside when they got to play with the original version again through time travel. They were clearly in love with Peggy and couldn’t let go of the fact that they couldn’t give Steve and Peggy a happy ending originally so they just found a way to do it in the end even if it trampled over their own work.

I’ve never thought that Steve’s ending was capitulation to Steggy fans but because the writers themselves are Steggy shippers. 

And it irks me that they’re still deifying Peggy with the stupid Captain Carter variant while not only shortchanging Sharon as a villain (because there were so many better things that they could have done with her character) but also overshadowing Sam when he is the one who is supposed to be the new Cap!

Edited February 19, 2022 by Spartan Girl

[festivus]

18 hours ago, Dani said:

I’ve never thought that Steve’s ending was capitulation to Steggy fans but because the writers themselves are Steggy shippers. 

That's what I think. I think it also shows a larger problem where friendship stories are not thought to be as important as romantic ones. 

That's why I was so upset (and I really truly was). I thought I was watching a great story of friendship and as it turned out, I wasn't. It would have been so nice to have something different for once and not the same old tired superhero and their love interest story. That's one of the reasons I love Captain Marvel so much. I hope that doesn't get ruined for me too. 

On 2/19/2022 at 2:50 AM, swanpride said:

What is it with the writers pushing Bucky aside? 

Yes. I don't understand this. Bucky is a fascinating character. I think we got some good stuff in FatS but nothing on how Steve's decision affected him really. It's like they don't want to touch that and I doubt they ever will. We got Sam's feelings on how what Steve did made him feel about taking up the shield as a Black man but nothing about how he might have felt personally betrayed when his friend up and left without even telling him what he was going to do.

It was a bad decision all around and one that Marvel is never going to own. FatS told me that.  

[BaggythePanther]

15 minutes ago, festivus said:

We got Sam's feelings on how what Steve did made him feel about taking up the shield as a Black man but nothing about how he might have felt personally betrayed when his friend up and left without even telling him what he was going to do.

Steve told Bucky what he planned to do. They didn’t make it explicitly clear because they wanted to hide the surprise reveal of Old Steve. But based on Steve and Bucky’s last conversation you can see that Bucky knew Steve wasn’t coming back. 
I don’t know if Buck “gave his permission” for Steve to go or if Steve just straight up told him the plan but it would have been nice to know what the conversation was and Bucky’s feelings about moving on without Steve.

 

 

[swanpride]

Even if they wanted to keep the surprise in Endgame, they could have addressed in in Falcon and the Winter Soldier. 

[Kel Varnsen]

38 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Even if they wanted to keep the surprise in Endgame, they could have addressed in in Falcon and the Winter Soldier. 

It seems like the FatWS writers went full cop-out with what actually happened to Steve. Like they knew there was a touchy subject so rather than make a it clear what happened they didn't talk about it at all. Which was super annoying since I have no idea what happened to old man Steve. And they also never made it clear what happened to the broken shield that Cap used to fight Thanos. Because that thing is the one that should be in the Smithsonian. So is the one that Sam got, that one that was repaired? Or did Steve get a new one in the past? And if it is a new one it is hardly the historical artifact the broken one is.

[festivus]

29 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

It seems like the FatWS writers went full cop-out with what actually happened to Steve.

They did. There's no way that your friend coming back 10 seconds later an old man after going to the past is not going to get discussed. With his other friend, your therapist, whatever. I know that Bucky and Steve were supposed to have this conversation off screen but I reserve the right to feel cheated by that. There's no way that didn't greatly affect him even if he did want his best friend to have some happiness.

I think they're leaving their options open in regard to what happened to Steve but it's at the expense of coherent storytelling, imo. 

I feel the same way about Sharon's story. I'm actually not against her turning bad but I don't like the way it was done. I'd rather have known it from the top of the show and shown what happened for her to get that way. Instead we got the boring flagsmasher story which just didn't quite work.  I don't think I'd care as much if I didn't think this is the end of Bucky. It doesn't feel like we're getting another season what with Sam getting a movie. With some of the upcoming shows we might get more with Sharon too. 

I honestly wish they'd have just killed Steve. At least Peter got to mourn Tony. And finally we got to see how Natasha's death affected the people that loved her. 

[swanpride]

Or they could have lost him in time....but I guess they wanted the scene with old man Steve...

[Oreo2234]

Quote

Well, they aren't really needed anymore, are they? We know have Superheroes turning up in each other movies all the time. And IF they do another BIG Team up movie, they can always call it something else. 

 

 

Maybe he just meant the final Avengers film featuring the original Avengers? Maybe I'm not remembering correctly but I think Fiege or someone at Disney has said that there would eventually be another Avengers movie. Though it didn't sound like it would be any time soon.

[Raja]

While everybody has their own favorite sidekick characters  the main B list Avengers are mostly gone haven been expended in the Infinity Saga. So right now the Avengers aren't the B-list characters that remained when Marvel sold off parts to FOX and Sony in order for the comic books company to  survive but the B-list's sidekicks.. And now the hoped for heavy hitter A list teams of the Fantastic Four and the X-Men will get the screen time.

Now Feige can Justice league a next Avengers team without the world building of three origin stories plus a Hulk movie done for the original Avengers movie but he is probably in his 60s by the time that happens and hoping that the MCU scared timeline doesn't fall under its own weight or get entirely rebooted by his replacement before he can think of finding space for a next Avengers

Edited February 21, 2022 by Raja

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 2/19/2022 at 12:50 AM, swanpride said:

I don't think that anyone was really happy with Steve going back in time. After all, one of the main complains fans had about Civil war was that it sidelined the relationship between Steve and Bucky in favour of everyone else. (And then they did the same in Infinity War. And then in Endgame. And then they didn't even have the decency to give Bucky the time he deserved to conclude his arc properly in Falcon in the Winter Soldier...

 

What is it with the writers pushing Bucky aside? 

I agree that Bucky has been pushed aside, but with the caveat that it hasn't affected his popularity among the fandom one iota, which is the part I'm not sure what to do with.  The lack of writing and development Barnes has gotten is probably the greatest source of fanon among the unpaid writers who fill in the copious amount of blanks the character has trailing behind him. Why did he never contact Steve, his best friend since they were kids, after he dragged him out of the river? No one knows. Why did he remain overseas until the UN bombing, living what seemed to be a quiet life? Nobody knows that either. I suppose you could say his status was uncertain as far as being sought by the authorities, but if Zemo hadn't pretended to be Barnes when he set those explosives, would anyone have really made an effort to find him other than Steve? It's impossible to say. For as many deaths as the Soldier had caused, you'd think there'd have been an active manhunt among however many international agencies as possible, and yet he was out in broad daylight buying fresh produce before everything went sideways for him.

 

18 hours ago, swanpride said:

Even if they wanted to keep the surprise in Endgame, they could have addressed in in Falcon and the Winter Soldier. 

Again, I don't know. Even if the subject was addressed during one of Bucky's therapy sessions with Dr. Raynor without Sam present, how would you contain such information, keep it from going public? Steve Rogers was a well-known figure in the fictional world he inhabited, and even in the 'present' in Hawkeye he's loved and admired enough that some Broadway producer decided, "Hey, let's put together a musical!" Yes, the scene where Clint and his kids attend a showing is so we can see his reaction to the actress playing Natasha, but the production itself was about Rogers. I realize I'm dealing with details I'm sure no one considered at the time Endgame was written, but how much would it tarnish Cap's image if the general public discovered he abandoned everything he stood for so he could live out some fantasy life with a carbon copy of his dead girlfriend? It's bad enough I'm still hearing the word 'enslave' over and over again in reference to Westview, the writers or whoever is in charge behind the scenes are certainly not going to acknowledge they had Rogers do something so selfish.

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I realize I'm dealing with details I'm sure no one considered at the time Endgame was written, but how much would it tarnish Cap's image if the general public discovered he abandoned everything he stood for so he could live out some fantasy life with a carbon copy of his dead girlfriend? It's bad enough I'm still hearing the word 'enslave' over and over again in reference to Westview, the writers or whoever is in charge behind the scenes are certainly not going to acknowledge they had Rogers do something so selfish.

Even though the powers that be have offered alternate interpretations the movies explicitly stated that going back in time creates an alternate timeline.  Therefore, it can be spun as Steve going back to create a utopian alternate timeline where all the people who died during the various attacks got to live because they'd be ready for it.  Howard and Maria Stark?  Not killed by Bucky (who Steve would have rescued).  Hydra infiltrating Shield?  Never happens.  Janet van Dyne?  Wasn't trapped because Steve talked to Hank.  The massive trauma of the Snap?  Never happens.  And so forth.

[Kel Varnsen]

3 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Even though the powers that be have offered alternate interpretations the movies explicitly stated that going back in time creates an alternate timeline.  Therefore, it can be spun as Steve going back to create a utopian alternate timeline where all the people who died during the various attacks got to live because they'd be ready for it.  Howard and Maria Stark?  Not killed by Bucky (who Steve would have rescued).  Hydra infiltrating Shield?  Never happens.  Janet van Dyne?  Wasn't trapped because Steve talked to Hank.  The massive trauma of the Snap?  Never happens.  And so forth.

That's how it works in my head. I just want to know if after Steve talks to Sam on the bench in EG does he hit a button on his watch and jump into a portal to go back to his new timeline, does he just sit there and live out his senior years in hiding in the main timeline, or does he immediately keel over and die after handing over the shield? 

[swanpride]

Who knows...but I know why Bucky remains popular among fans, despite being constantly underwritten: Sebastian Stan. For one he puts so much feeling in every scene he is in, that he makes way more out of them than there are actually there. Just his reaction when he gets the new arm represented by T'Challa. It is just a look and a line, but there is so much pain in it. There is a lot you can guess from his performance which is never really said. 

And where the performance fails, he adds in his interviews. Remember the backpack of sadness? 

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Even if the subject was addressed during one of Bucky's therapy sessions with Dr. Raynor without Sam present, how would you contain such information, keep it from going public?

They could have just had Bucky and Sam discuss it alone since they both clearly know what happened. The bigger issue is that the show writers and actors probably don’t know what Steve’s fate was. 

I guessing they are holding it back in case they want to address it in a later project. There was the trade story that Evans was in talks to come back. 

On 2/20/2022 at 1:25 PM, swanpride said:

Or they could have lost him in time....but I guess they wanted the scene with old man Steve...

All for that stupid reveal of old man Steve on the bench. I loved a lot about Endgame but that decision to sacrifice story in favor of a shocking reveal epitomizes every issue I have with the movie. If they were married to the Steggy ending they could have just had him get stuck in the past and then returned after his world advanced enough for the tech to be built. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Guest

[Cobalt Stargazer]

11 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Even though the powers that be have offered alternate interpretations the movies explicitly stated that going back in time creates an alternate timeline.  Therefore, it can be spun as Steve going back to create a utopian alternate timeline where all the people who died during the various attacks got to live because they'd be ready for it.  Howard and Maria Stark?  Not killed by Bucky (who Steve would have rescued).  Hydra infiltrating Shield?  Never happens.  Janet van Dyne?  Wasn't trapped because Steve talked to Hank.  The massive trauma of the Snap?  Never happens.  And so forth.

To quote the noted philosopher, Yelena Belova, "You call him a hero no matter what he does?" 🙂

As impressed as I am by your spinning skills, this just re-confirms what I find so annoying about all fandoms; that we want consequences right up until we don't, usually because one of the white dudes we claim to be tired of is involved. I could even maybe ignore it a little bit if it was just Steve, except non-Winter Soldier Bucky helps known murderer Zemo escape from prison, and it's literally not made an issue except by Ayo, who maybe rightly takes it as a personal betrayal given all the help Barnes got when he was in Wakanda. Fine, Zemo eventually goes back to prison and fine, maybe Ayo shouldn't have used the failsafe on Bucky's arm, but sheesh, maybe he should have just stayed out of her argument with John Walker since she was already ticked off with him.

I would add that none of the theories about what Steve may or may not have done are altered by the fact that in the prime timeline, Peggy Carter died of old age after a long life of accomplishments that had nothing to do with him. Even if we hold the infiltration of SHIELD by Hydra against Prime Version Peggy, the woman Rogers was dancing with in the final scenes of Endgame was someone different, different enough that she might have gone on a similar path, or on to something even more different. I'm sure I'm being boring with it at this point, and I'll shut up after this, but the only differences between what Wanda did and what Steve did are the scale of it, and that Wanda did it by accident and Steve did it on purpose. One being condemned when the other isn't is not improving my disposition about how Wanda gets treated in general.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Even though the powers that be have offered alternate interpretations the movies explicitly stated that going back in time creates an alternate timeline.  Therefore, it can be spun as Steve going back to create a utopian alternate timeline where all the people who died during the various attacks got to live because they'd be ready for it.  Howard and Maria Stark?  Not killed by Bucky (who Steve would have rescued).  Hydra infiltrating Shield?  Never happens.  Janet van Dyne?  Wasn't trapped because Steve talked to Hank.  The massive trauma of the Snap?  Never happens.  And so forth.

All of that would require Steve to be magic and to know information he has no way of knowing. Not to mention the unpredictability of how one change would effect another. If Howard and Maria don’t die does Tony become Iron Man? Steve making a lot of “right” changes would eliminate the Avengers leading to other consequences.

I can’t fathom how Steve could possibly stop Thanos and the snap or how he would have the correct information to even know Janet van Dyne needed to be saved. 

Plus that also doesn’t address the issue of frozen Cap. Does Steve save him and the poor guy gets to watch an alternate version of himself living his life or is he stuck as a Capsicle? Steve sitting back an letting things unfold makes him look awful but him playing God really isn’t better. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Guest

[Spartan Girl]

29 minutes ago, Dani said:

All of that would require Steve to be magic and to know information he has no way of knowing. Not to mention the unpredictability of how one change would effect another. If Howard and Maria don’t die does Tony become Iron Man? Steve making a lot of “right” changes would eliminate the Avengers leading to other consequences.

I can’t fathom how Steve could possibly stop Thanos and the snap or how he would have the correct information to even know Janet van Dyne needed to be saved. 

Plus that also doesn’t address the issue of frozen Cap. Does Steve save him and the poor guy gets to watch an alternate version of himself living his life or is he stuck as a Capsicle? Steve sitting back an letting things unfold makes him look awful but him playing God really isn’t better. 

Yeah, let’s not pretend Steve’s motivation was about creating a better universe; he could have easily stayed to fix things in his own timeline. He just wanted a do-over with Peggy, consequences and collateral damage be damned.

[Kel Varnsen]

3 hours ago, Dani said:

can’t fathom how Steve could possibly stop Thanos and the snap or how he would have the correct information to even know Janet van Dyne needed to be saved. 

He might not stop the snap but I could definitely see him waiting in New Mexico when Thor shows up and explaining to him that they need to lock up Loki and the tesseract and not destroy the Bifrost. Then the battle of New York is a lot different when Thor and the army of Asgard shows up (and possibly Wakanda if Steve goes to see T'chaka).

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Yeah, let’s not pretend Steve’s motivation was about creating a better universe; he could have easily stayed to fix things in his own timeline. He just wanted a do-over with Peggy, consequences and collateral damage be damned.

Maybe the more interesting story would have been instead of going back to the past to be with Peggy, instead picking her up and bringing her to the future?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Maybe the more interesting story would have been instead of going back to the past to be with Peggy, instead picking her up and bringing her to the future?

I would hate that just as much. Peggy is one of the most important people in the history of MCU. Her destiny is so much bigger than her romance with Steve. Plus taking her and having her join him as a person out of time is just cruel. 

I can see him trying to convince her, “Come live with me in to the future where your life’s work is in ruins because Hydra was right under your nose. Where everyone you know and love are probably dead. But, hey, you can see the children and grandchildren you would have had. You can meet your niece who sacrificed everything to help me after we kissed. We just have to get her a pardon but that should be easy. It’ll be great. All we need is love, amiright?”

Edited February 22, 2022 by Guest

[tv echo]

This fascinating Vanity Fair interview includes several MCU stars: Benedict Cumberbatch, Simu Liu, Idris Elba and Andrew Garfield - they all responded to 8 questions about acting...

-- Early on in your career, did you ever consider giving up?
-- What's the most emotional you've ever been when you landed a role?
-- When in your career did you feel the most nervous?
-- Did a casting director or talent agent say something early in your career that stuck with you?
-- Which co-star did you learn the most from?
-- What's the most challenging scene you've worked on?
-- When in your career did you realize that you made it?
-- What do you love most about your work?

Andrew Garfield, Kristen Stewart, Penélope Cruz & More on Making It In Hollywood | Vanity Fair
Vanity Fair   Feb 17, 2022

And this Vanity Fair interview is with Sebastian Stan...

Sebastian Stan Breaks Down His Career, from 'Captain America' to 'Pam & Tommy' | Vanity Fair
Vanity Fair   Feb 21, 2022

Quote

0:00 Introduction
0:47 71 Fragments of a Chronology of Chance
1:42 The Covenant
3:04 Gossip Girl
5:15 Black Swan
6:58 Captain America: The First Avenger
8:20 Captain America: The Winter Soldier
8:59 Captain America: Civil War
9:59 Logan Lucky
11:05 I, Tonya
12:58 Pam & Tommy

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by tv echo

[Enigma X]

Not to take this off topic, but I looked for a general Fox X-Men forum (sort of like this) to ask a Fox X-Men question but could not find it here. Does it exist? If so, can someone send me the link?

[Kel Varnsen]

12 hours ago, Dani said:

would hate that just as much. Peggy is one of the most important people in the history of MCU. Her destiny is so much bigger than her romance with Steve. Plus taking her and having her join him as a person out of time is just cruel. 

I am not sur it would be better but I don't think it would be much worse. It wouldn't lead to all the stupid ambiguity about Steve being in the past and the timeline. And the MCU bosses obviously love Peggy so maybe they could continue to use her, which might be annoying but it would mean there would be even less need for boring-ass Sharon.