The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[Danny Franks]

I think Thor: The Dark World had a bit more Thor/Sif in the script, as we saw Sif give Jane a couple of sour glances in the trailer and I think one survived to make it into the movie, but none of the rest of it did. But given it was excised from the film, that means Sif's romantic proclivities are still unwritten.

But if Sif is to have a romantic storyline in Love and Thunder, they could do worse than cribbing from the J. Michael Straczynski run that had one of the Asgardians, Kelda, fall in love with a humble, small town human called Bill. The idea of Sif, the great warrior, and some relatively unassuming guy or girl would be fun.

I still think bringing Jane back, even as Lady Thor, is a bit of a mistake. I just don't think Portman and Hemsworth had any chemistry at all and I don't think she's a good fit for what the Thor franchise has become. 

[FnkyChkn34]

38 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

I still think bringing Jane back, even as Lady Thor, is a bit of a mistake. I just don't think Portman and Hemsworth had any chemistry at all and I don't think she's a good fit for what the Thor franchise has become. 

ITA.  Natalie Portman is an excellent actress, in dramas and more indie-type films.  I don't seem to care for her in mega-blockbuster franchise movies.  I just don't see her as a superhero or superhero significant other.  She actually deserves meatier, better written roles (like Black Swan or Jackie) and not the action/adventure stuff.  

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

ITA.  Natalie Portman is an excellent actress, in dramas and more indie-type films.  I don't seem to care for her in mega-blockbuster franchise movies.  I just don't see her as a superhero or superhero significant other.  She actually deserves meatier, better written roles (like Black Swan or Jackie) and not the action/adventure stuff.  

I think if she's not mentally/emotionally invested, if it's a paycheck movie, she kind of just phones it in. I also have no idea if she can do comedy, the only comedic movie I ever saw her in was "Your Highness" and, I have a vague memory of blahness LOL.

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

But given it was excised from the film, that means Sif's romantic proclivities are still unwritten.

Yes, they can totally ignore the comics, Norse Mythology and previous scripts and just have Lady Sif go in a totally different way. However, as someone who has wanted to see Their/Side explored since the first movie. I hope they give it a fair shot.

ETA: I also have no idea about Ultimate Thor, I only read 616 titles, when I did read comics. I know the MCU pulls heavily (if not entirely) from the Ultimate comics.

I know they brought Natalie to SDCC (or was it D23?). However, I honestly wonder if she has a major role or if they're setting up for Lady Thor in Thor 5?

BTW - for those that pay more attention is it normal for MCU movies to have multiple scenes that are wildly different from the end product? For instance we have 2 very different scenes of Hawkeye/Widow and Widow's death in Endgame. I just came across a totally different scene for Thor Ragnorock, with Odin's death and Hela's return. I know they film scenes and can do different takes but, themselves has CGI and everything 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Morrigan2575

[AimingforYoko]

MCU officially the only game in town.

 

[rmontro]

6 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I also have no idea about Ultimate Thor, I only read 616 titles, when I did read comics. I know the MCU pulls heavily (if not entirely) from the Ultimate comics.

They definitely don't pull entirely from the Ultimate Comics.  If they did, we'd have seen a pretty eye opening version of Wanda and Pietro.

I loved the Ultimates (the Ultimate version of the Avengers), but I absolutely HATE HATE HATE the Ultimate version of the Fantastic Four, so I hope we aren't going to be seeing any of that.

[Bruinsfan]

The Ultimates line served as the style guide for the MCU characters and settings, but in at least some cases (Cap, Thor, the Hulk, Black Widow) the essence of the characters was still that of the original Marvel versions. I do think leaning into the Ultimate depictions of Iron Man and Nick Fury was a good idea. Hawkeye, not so much—the Ultimate version is pretty uninteresting, whereas the mainstream version has tons of charisma and likeability.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Bruinsfan

[Morrigan2575]

I pretty much know nothing about The Ultimate Universe, other that Nick Fury looking like Samuel L Jackson (which I learned on TWOP when Iron Man came out). I had an FU! Marvel moment when they started the Ultimate Universe Titles....they took enough of my money already 😃

 

[Fukui San]

In general, I'd say The Ultimates line in general tried to stay more grounded in reality but also tried to be edgier, with various consequences. Hawkeye became more plausible but boring. The female Avengers were greatly diminished from their 616 counterparts. Natasha a traitor, The Wasp a battered wife, Wanda a weirdo with incestuous overtones. The Ultimates' intimate relationship with SHIELD was a double edge sword, making the title more militaristic, meaner. Ultimate Cap being more right wing friendly...  and Thor being kind of a hippie with delusions of godhood, etc., etc. Interesting takes, hits and misses, but the mandate was to give everything a new spin.

Ultimate Spiderman unencumbered by 616 continuity was marvelous for quite a long time and was the basis for Sam Raimi's films. Ultimate Spiderman also was where Miles Morales came from. The other Ultimate titles I paid less attention to. Eventually the whole line devolved and ended in ignominy, but while it lasted it generated years of interesting material geared to a blockbuster realistic action movie sensibility which is why so much was drawn from the Ultimates line to create the MCU films.

[swanpride]

I actually think that they just mix whatever they like. Whedon apparently liked the version of Hawkeye with Family, because it fit into the story he was trying to tell. That's all what is to it.

[FnkyChkn34]

2 hours ago, swanpride said:

I actually think that they just mix whatever they like. Whedon apparently liked the version of Hawkeye with Family, because it fit into the story he was trying to tell. That's all what is to it.

That is what I think they should do.  Just do whatever they want.  🙂  

I'm a very new Marvel fan.  I hadn't seen a complete Marvel movie until I was unemployed during the pandemic, and I binge-watched every movie of Phases 1-4 (except the Ed Norton Hulk movie, the internet said I could skip it) in chronological MCU time (which Disney+ has only just now generously provided and I had to figure it out myself). 

I don't know any background and I've never read any source material...  But couldn't the people now in charge of all of the movies (Whedon, James Gunn, whomever else) just basically be creating their own characters?  Sure, they are "based on" Stan Lee's characters, but they don't have to be word-for-word with every detail matching... right?

That's the way I see it at least.  The comic books and whatever else are what they are... and then the movies are what they are.  They don't have to be the same. 😉  

[swanpride]

I hope you get a new job soon. But until then…Have you watched Agents of Shield too? And Agent Carter? If you didn't, you very much should.

 

 

[FnkyChkn34]

39 minutes ago, swanpride said:

I hope you get a new job soon. But until then…Have you watched Agents of Shield too? And Agent Carter? If you didn't, you very much should.

 

 

Thank you, I did - I started a great new job in August. 🙂  Less movie watching time lately, but I'll definitely take the trade-off. 😉  

I didn't watch those, but I'll check them out!  I assume I can find them on a different streaming service?  I don't think I saw them on Disney+...

[Starfish35]

Agent Carter is on Disney+.  It’s under Marvel Live Action Series and Specials, in the Marvel section. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. isn’t there yet though; I just checked. It looks like Netflix has it though.  

Edited December 15, 2020 by Starfish35

[Raja]

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Thank you, I did - I started a great new job in August. 🙂  Less movie watching time lately, but I'll definitely take the trade-off. 😉  

I didn't watch those, but I'll check them out!  I assume I can find them on a different streaming service?  I don't think I saw them on Disney+...

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D season 7 was just added to Netflix along with Daredevil and the Defenders 5 solo series are about the only Marvel left off of Disney +

[Starfish35]

I don’t think Disney+ has Cloak & Dagger yet.  I was looking for it the other day.  But I assume it’ll be added eventually.

[swanpride]

Oh, right, yeah, in the US Netflix currently has the first season of AoS, but I guess they will be added eventually. DON'T start with season 7, you would be completely lost.

[FnkyChkn34]

Thank you all for the suggestions and where to find them!  I'll check them out. 🙂 

[Avabelle]

I watched Agent Carter though the second season lost me a bit. Didn’t she end up with someone else prior to the events of Endgame? How did they explain that as I saw the same character pop up in agents of shield but I don’t watch that..

[Raja]

27 minutes ago, Avabelle said:

I watched Agent Carter though the second season lost me a bit. Didn’t she end up with someone else prior to the events of Endgame? How did they explain that as I saw the same character pop up in agents of shield but I don’t watch that..

It wasn't explained who she was with. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D gave us the story that the relationship ended after they met the man during their time traveling story 

[Spartan Girl]

Simpler answer: the Russos retconned everything from Agent Carter. Because they couldn’t just leave it with Peggy moving on, meeting someone else, and living a long, happy, fulfilling life and Steve being fine with it and happy for her in Winter Soldier.

No, I’m not still bitter. Not at all....

[Starfish35]

Technicality I suppose, but don’t the Russos argue that Steve created an alternate timeline when he went back?  So everything in Agent Carter still happened in the original timeline.  My recollection was that it was the writers who were arguing that it was a closed time loop.

As for Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., I stopped watching after season three, so I’m not sure how/where that one fits into the timeline. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Starfish35

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Technicality I suppose, but don’t the Russos argue that Steve created an alternate timeline when he went back?  So everything in Agent Carter still happened in the original timeline.  My recollection was that it was the writers who were arguing that it was a closed time loop.

That’s true. The Endgame writers were also the creators of Agent Carter. 

8 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

As for Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., I stopped watching after season three, so I’m not sure how/where that one fits into the timeline. 

AoS split from the MCU timeline after Infinity War. It’s pretty much impossible to fit the final two seasons with what happened in Endgame. Since the multiverse is definitely being introduced and don’t think there’s any reason to explain Endgame’s impact on Agent Carter. 

[swanpride]

Either AoS split or it just happens to exist in the 2014 split of the MCU.

[Raja]

9 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

Technicality I suppose, but don’t the Russos argue that Steve created an alternate timeline when he went back?  So everything in Agent Carter still happened in the original timeline.  My recollection was that it was the writers who were arguing that it was a closed time loop.

As for Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., I stopped watching after season three, so I’m not sure how/where that one fits into the timeline. 

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D had a season dedicated to breaking a time loop but that happened after the Disney reorganization and they no longer had the information about the movies that they had for the Hydra emergence in The Winter Soldier.

As for Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D's last seasons I think that they took a guess at the plot about where Infinity War was going by reading the comics and seeing the trailers and it bit them in the ass. Seasons 5-7 synopsis.

Spoiler

 

Basically the story was while Thanos was going to Wakanda after the Infinity stone Daisy Johnson/Quake stopped a bigger threat to earth in Chicago from a mentally damaged hero who was doing everything he could to power up to take on Thanos and broke a timeloop as earth was destroyed  in the original loop.  It might have worked canon wise if Disney did not come late to order a 6th and then 7th season. So no reference to the Snapture or Blip back is in their story.

As for  Agent Carter and Agent Sousa becoming a thing in finale of the Agent Carter series. Through time travel on AoS we return to the 50s and they are broken up and Chief Sousa thinks he is about to see Peggy again but is was Agent Simmons impersonating her.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Raja

[Starfish35]

Thanks!  Yeah, I knew 

Spoiler

Daniel and Daisy ended up together (which, personally, I’m intrigued by - as much as I like the actor, I never cared much for Peggy/Daniel), but wasn’t sure how/when they diverged from the MCU.

 

[starri]

On 12/14/2020 at 3:05 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

Yes, they can totally ignore the comics, Norse Mythology and previous scripts and just have Lady Sif go in a totally different way. However, as someone who has wanted to see Their/Side explored since the first movie. I hope they give it a fair shot.

Marvel has been broadening their approach to gender identity and orientation a lot over the past five or ten years.  The current run of X-Men has essentially resolved the Jean/Cyclops/Wolverine triangle by having them become a throuple, and they've at least hinted that Scott and Logan are involved with each other as well as Jean.  The most recent issue of GotG had Quill ending up in an alternate universe (the 616-Quill) and having the same thing happen.

[Danny Franks]

On 12/16/2020 at 3:53 AM, Starfish35 said:

Technicality I suppose, but don’t the Russos argue that Steve created an alternate timeline when he went back?  So everything in Agent Carter still happened in the original timeline.  My recollection was that it was the writers who were arguing that it was a closed time loop.

The writers are wrong. They should know, they already wrote the bit in Endgame where Bruce explains that closed time loops can't exist - Steve cannot go back and change his own past, which includes Peggy marrying and having a family and living for seventy years without him. Steve went back in time and created a divergence to marry Peggy, long before anything in Agent Carter could have happened.

Now, what happens to the original Steve in that timeline is an unanswerable question. I like to imagine Steve quietly sneaked off to the Arctic and did away with him so he would never have to explain anything.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 minute ago, Danny Franks said:

The writers are wrong. They should know, they already wrote the bit in Endgame where Bruce explains that closed time loops can't exist - Steve cannot go back and change his own past, which includes Peggy marrying and having a family and living for seventy years without him. Steve went back in time and created a divergence to marry Peggy, long before anything in Agent Carter could have happened.

Now, what happens to the original Steve in that timeline is an unanswerable question. I like to imagine Steve quietly sneaked off to the Arctic and did away with him so he would never have to explain anything.

Yeah the idea that Steve always married Peggy was stupid and made no sense. Because if new timelines only spawn if an infinity stone was removed then Thanos would have always disappeared in 2014 and Infinity War would have never happened.

As for the two Cap timeline, I like to think that he rescued him pretty much right away and that Cap rescued Bucky and stopped Hydra and Thanos and continued kicking ass, while time travelling Cap takes a well deserved retirement. Although I am not sure what that means for the younger unfrozen Cap not getting to be with the love of his life. Speaking of different types of relationships maybe Peggy has two Steves to dance with.

[swanpride]

Well, closed time-loops aren't impossible (see Agents of Shield) but it doesn't make sense in this particular case.

[FnkyChkn34]

I think the discussion and explanation of time travel is fascinating, given that every single show/book/movie handles it just a bit differently.  For example, there's Marvel, then there's Outlander, and then there's The Time Traveler's Wife...  If only it were real and we could finally get a definitive answer. 😉 

[swanpride]

There are actually only three basic theories, as I explained here:

https://archiveofourown.org/works/26008951

Naturally there are variations and mixed versions.

[Danny Franks]

3 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I think the discussion and explanation of time travel is fascinating, given that every single show/book/movie handles it just a bit differently.  For example, there's Marvel, then there's Outlander, and then there's The Time Traveler's Wife...  If only it were real and we could finally get a definitive answer. 😉 

As long as the theory is consistent and makes sense within the lore of a particular show or movie, I'm happy. It's when the logic breaks down because the writers want to do something that shouldn't be possible within their established theory that I get annoyed.

So if your theory is 'if we go back in time it won't change the present' then you can't just have a Steve Rogers at the end of the movie who did that. Which the Russos remembered but the writers of Endgame didn't.

One shade I like is the idea that time is always trying to revert to its original course - like in Twelve Monkeys (the series) and 11/22/63 by Stephen King, where strange things occur that try to stop the heroes from changing things, or new wrinkles appear that try to put things back on track. But the MCU version makes the most sense and is the least paradoxically confusing - your future is always your future, regardless of where you are in a timeline.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

Speaking of alternate timelines, it probably won't happen, but it would be cool if the What If show did an episode about what Cap did after he got in the time machine at the end of Endgame. It would also be cool how the events of Guardians of the Galaxy would have been different with no Thanos, no Gamora and no Nebula.

[Danny Franks]

36 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Speaking of alternate timelines, it probably won't happen, but it would be cool if the What If show did an episode about what Cap did after he got in the time machine at the end of Endgame. It would also be cool how the events of Guardians of the Galaxy would have been different with no Thanos, no Gamora and no Nebula.

It would be cool to see both those timelines.

In the former, I guess Cap would have exposed Hydra almost right away and worked with Howard and Peggy to root them out, he would have rescued Bucky and together they'd all have established SHIELD as the epitome of what it could be. With Steve's moral leadership, they might have been able to bring about world peace and harmony.

In the latter, I guess the Guardians probably never form, because Drax never would have bothered with them in the prison without Gamora being there, and Ronan would never have had the strength to destroy Xandar. I guess Quill experiences much less personal growth and is still the womanising man-child we met at the beginning of Guardians, Drax is still in prison, Rocket and Groot are still a team of two, doing mercenary work.

[Captain Carrot]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

In the latter, I guess the Guardians probably never form, because Drax never would have bothered with them in the prison without Gamora being there, and Ronan would never have had the strength to destroy Xandar. I guess Quill experiences much less personal growth and is still the womanising man-child we met at the beginning of Guardians, Drax is still in prison, Rocket and Groot are still a team of two, doing mercenary work.

And Ego is still out there either looking for Peter or deciding to keep having kids until one of them gives him what he wants. (Which would be a good idea for a what if story).

 

As for the writer's theory about Steve, I think I have a way for it to work with the way time travel works in the MCU:

Steve A helps defeat Thanos, returns all of the infinity stones, then goes back in time to live with Peggy. They don't do anything about Steve B (our Steve), Hydra, or anything else because they believe any changes may allow Thanos to succeed. Steve waits for Thanos to be defeated and Steve B to leave to return the infinity stones, then gives the replacement shield he and Peggy had made to Sam. Steve B then returns the infinity stones and goes back in time to live with Peggy B. They have a new shield made, but don't do anything about Steve C or any of the other issues. So every reality that defeats Thanos has a young Steve about to go back in time and an old Steve waiting for the young Steve to leave.

Sure this idea is extremely convoluted, has Steve and Peggy acting out of character, and assumes that Peggy can work with Hydra sleeper agents for DECADES without batting an eye; but it (technically) works. (Or the writers are talking out of their asses. It makes me wonder how much of their script was changed by the Russo brothers).

[Kel Varnsen]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

In the latter, I guess the Guardians probably never form, because Drax never would have bothered with them in the prison without Gamora being there, and Ronan would never have had the strength to destroy Xandar. I guess Quill experiences much less personal growth and is still the womanising man-child we met at the beginning of Guardians, Drax is still in prison, Rocket and Groot are still a team of two, doing mercenary work.

Quill ends up in jail right because Rocket and Groot were bounty hunters who were trying to capture him right? Gamora being there turned it into a fight. That weird dealer guy sells the Power Stone to the collector. Maybe Ronan gets it or maybe he tries to fight Xandar without it 

[Starfish35]

I wonder whether Falcon and the Winter Soldier will confirm either theory, or whether they’ll just leave it.  

I can mostly live with the branching timeline theory, even if it wouldn’t have been my preferred ending for Steve.  (Although the issue of the other Steve really does cause some problems there.  I have not yet been able to work out a completely satisfactory resolution to that issue. 😕)

I just simply cannot deal with the whole closed time loop theory.  It just absolutely does not work for me, both in its logic regarding what was stated in the movie itself and its implications for the characters.  🤯

[swanpride]

Honestly, each of the jumps are interesting, but my favourite is actually the 2012 one, where Loki is one the loose, Hydra thinks that Steve is one of them, Steve might wonder if Bucky is still alive, Tony might have serious psychological problems because his "emotional lifeline" (his arc reactor) failed him and the Ancient one has some new events to sort out. But I guess we might get to see some hints for it in the Loki show...

[Bruinsfan]

On 12/17/2020 at 9:00 AM, Kel Varnsen said:

As for the two Cap timeline, I like to think that he rescued him pretty much right away and that Cap rescued Bucky and stopped Hydra and Thanos and continued kicking ass, while time travelling Cap takes a well deserved retirement. Although I am not sure what that means for the younger unfrozen Cap not getting to be with the love of his life. Speaking of different types of relationships maybe Peggy has two Steves to dance with.

Throuples really are the solution to everything! Or, alternately, one Peggy, one rescued Bucky, two Steves, no problem.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Bruinsfan

[swanpride]

Not sure if Steve can rescue Steve....I mean, does he know where he was found?

[Captain Carrot]

2 hours ago, swanpride said:

Not sure if Steve can rescue Steve....I mean, does he know where he was found?

Doesn't the ice move to some degree in the arctic? If so could you use the location of an object found in the ice at one point to determine where it would have been in the past?

[swanpride]

..what object? Steve doesn't know where the plane went down, and I doubt that he ever bothered to ask where exactly it was found. He most likely doesn't know more about the general location than Howard at this point. Granted, KNOWING that second Steve is out there and alive might lead to more searches, so they might find him eventually and earlier than in the main MCU timeline.

[Captain Carrot]

Let me clarify. As I see it, he might know where the plane was found, but I'm not certain that it would have been there the whole time. It probably moved over time, so knowing the location the plane was found might not help if you're looking for it decades earlier.

[Bruinsfan]

Mightn't Steve have remembered the last location he saw on that map readout thingy as he was forcing the plane down? As I recall, how soon he would be over inhabited territory was a big part of his decision to ditch it when he did.

[HoodlumSheep]

Watched Gotg 2 and Thor Ragnarok!

I enjoyed both flicks.

Can't say if i enjoyed Gotg 2 more or less than the first film (which i've only watched once like 2 years ago). 

Yondu 😢

Kurt Russell was fun as the bad guy.

Thor Ragnorok:

Definitely my fav thor flick. It was incredibly refreshing compared to the pretty average first movie and the awful second one.

Didn't miss jane and her not-so-funny comic relief squad at all. I didn't miss thor's lil squad either (they were there for oike less than 5 minutes which fine by me). I was much happier without them tbh. Valkyrie was a great addition along with bruce, karl urban and jeff goldblum...lol. Good to see Dr. Strange too.

this was the most i've liked odin. 

hela was fun. 

thor's new look is pretty great

the lil theatre production retelling the end of thor 2 was great lololol

only three more films until i'm caught up! Infinity War, Endgame and Far From Home!!! So close!!!

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by HoodlumSheep

[Trini]

Kinda late, but HISHE does Iron Man 2:

(for those unfamiliar, HISHE has been around long enough that they have their own in-jokes)

 

[Guest]

I’m so happy we’re going to have new content to talk about soon. The final trailer for WandaVision is out and it’s been confirmed to have nine episodes. Which means there will be no gap between WandaVision and The Falcon and the Winter Soldier. 🥳

Disney Plus Unveils ‘WandaVision’ TV Spot, Releases Original Theme Song

[ruby24]

Okay, so, about the Thor movies. I never liked the first two, but I do like Ragnarok a lot. And I love Loki. I was upset that he died in a way that seems like he can't be brought back and I was totally uninterested in seeing a fourth Thor movie without him in it. Frankly I think the Thor/Loki relationship and chemistry is the most appealing part of Thor's own series. I really don't care about Natalie Portman coming back as Jane and whatever it is they're doing with her, because I never thought her and Hemsworth had any chemistry whatsoever and I never cared about their romance.

Does anyone think there's any chance that they could migrate this new alternate Loki who's going to be in the TV series back into the Thor movies? I know he's going to be the more villainous version but maybe they could somehow get him back to basically being his other self through some, I don't know, magic thing or whatever. I'd like to see another Taika Waititi movie but I want it to have both Thor AND Loki in it.

[JessePinkman]

The new Legends show on Disney+ is just glorified fanvids of Wanda and Vision's best MCU moments. Not worth the watch if you're already familiar with the characters.

[AimingforYoko]

1 hour ago, JessePinkman said:

The new Legends show on Disney+ is just glorified fanvids of Wanda and Vision's best MCU moments. Not worth the watch if you're already familiar with the characters.

To use sports television lingo, the seven minute "episodes" are simply "Highlight Packages".