All Episodes Discussion

[SunnyBeBe]

52 minutes ago, Cozytea said:

I couldn't believe she was found not guilty.  Her self defense story did seem fake.  It just made no sense. I don't understand what the jury was thinking.  She was very familiar with guns worked at a gun shop . It was so obvious to me she was cooking the dinner thinking, she could change his mind. During the show/trial it was shown she texted him to come home, she made dinner. He hadn't been home for a few days at that point ( he was ready to move out) I think she was pissed he wasnt changing his mind.

The jury was almost all in favor of guilty until 2-3 of them threw a wrench in it.  They were either very biased, ignorant or influenced in some way.  I’m not accusing  anyone, but I’d be curious as to why those few jurors had such an odd take on it despite the evidence.  Actually, more dense than the Casey Anthony jury. 

[Cozytea]

12 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

The jury was almost all in favor of guilty until 2-3 of them threw a wrench in it.  They were either very biased, ignorant or influenced in some way.  I’m not accusing  anyone, but I’d be curious as to why those few jurors had such an odd take on it despite the evidence.  Actually, more dense than the Casey Anthony jury. 

Casey Anthony's Jury who I thought of. I almost mentioned them in my post. 

Thanks for reminding me  that most of the jury thought she was guilty.  

[SunnyBeBe]

It really makes you wonder what incentive those few jurors had.  I hope the state looks into it.  They didn’t seem like the kind of person to keep quiet about anything.  

Edited August 30, 2021 by SunnyBeBe

[ByaNose]

Chad Daybell 5 adult children are as nutty as their father. They are in total denial. All these people are dying around him and they think he’s innocent. Um, okayyyy!

[torqy]

Chad has to be at least complicit if not actively involved. The 5 kids seemed off somehow, like they were on psych drugs.

I want to know why Tammy Daybell's autopsy is being kept secret. Some "smoking gun" to be used later in Chad's trial?

The deaths of Tammy, Charles Vallow, Lori's first husband and Alex Cox need to be scrutinized closely, I think there is more than meets the eye. Definitely Lori is a black widow!

[Ellee]

And I admit I know nothing about this but Lori’s older sister died young.  I’d like to add her to the list. 

[Lisa418722]

I hope I'm misremembering but didn't one of Chad's daughters mention the "evidence" buried in the backyard.  Don't you mean Tylee and JJ??  Also when she was talking about how if Chad had done it he would have buried them deeper because he used to dig graves.  That whole family is messed up.  

[ChristmasJones]

Chad's daughter made the comment along the lines of "if he did kill them, he wouldn't be as stupid to bury them in his own backyard."

As someone who reads/watches probably way too much true crime, I have noticed that MANY murderers will use the line "there is no way I would be so stupid as to do _____ " (with blank being some part of the crime).   When you listen to interviews with people where the evidence is overwhelming, listen for this phrase and you will usually hear it. 

It was a bit different to hear someone other than the murderer say it, but it caught my attention because I've heard it in sooo many interviews.

A lot of the types of things they've talked about Lori saying sounds like Q-Anon stuff. I don't think I've heard that term connected with her case. 

[hookedontv]

All of Chad's kids are strange and delusional. 

I don't know what else to say. Except hearing the facts again made me sad all over for Tylee and JJ. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by hookedontv

[Annber03]

Saw the season premiere tonight, about the BIanca Devins case. I honestly have no memory of hearing about this one in the news, but wow, what a horrifying story. People kept talking about how goofy and nerdy Brandon was, but hell, even in the photos they showed of him, before revealing what he'd done to Bianca, he didn't come off that way to me at all. He just screamed "creepy" from the get-go. He's 21 years old and he's getting jealous over a 17 year old girl. "Skeevy" doesn't begin to describe that. 

And his suicide attempt felt very overdramatic. I don't feel it was sincere at all, I feel it was yet another way for him to get attention and pity and try to play the "woe is me" card. The fact he had the absolute gall to post those disgusting, horrific photos online and torment her family, friends, and anyone else who came upon them just further proves that, as did his obnoxious behavior in the courtroom later. He's absolute scum. 

My heart went out to Bianca's mom and grandfather. I really hope that Bianca's Law does get passed, 'cause indeed, it's absolutely insane that stuff like that is allowed to be shared online and that the tech sites can't get rid of it. I've seen people get kicked out of various sites for much less severe offenses, so if they can do that, surely they can tackle this as well. The fact her family is still getting those images two years later is just...there's no words. 

Also, fuck incels. Bunch of sad, pathetic losers. 

[TVbitch]

Alls I could think watching this horrific episode is thank god I don't have kids to worry about, and that I have no interest in social media. 

[patty1h]

I thought child molesters were the scum of the earth, but this episode made incels on par with the sickest of the sick.  They want to hurt women because they can't get a female to hook up with them, yet, they never think the problem lie within.

Brandon deserves to be put in a room with Bianca's mother, sister and grandfather for 10 minutes... I'm sure they could get justice.

ADDED:  Small nitpick - this episode had some cut-in moments of Bianca's mother sadly looking out of a window, with the camera outside of the house looking in at her.  This bothered me - some producer had to ask this grieving mother to sit there while they went outside, set up this shot and filmed it.  That shot was unnecessary to this segment and It just seems a little... exploitative.

Edited September 19, 2021 by patty1h

[LakeGal]

Bianca was so thin I was thinking she might have had an eating disorder.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, patty1h said:

ADDED:  Small nitpick - this episode had some cut-in moments of Bianca's mother sadly looking out of a window, with the camera outside of the house looking in at her.  This bothered me - some producer had to ask this grieving mother to sit there while they went outside, set up this shot and filmed it.  That shot was unnecessary to this segment and It just seems a little... exploitative.

No. Not a nitpick.  I think it’s a valid point. 

I don’t know how to respond to this episode because if I write what I’m feeling the mods will be all over me.

In my line of work I sometimes hear issues with social media, high school (and college) students and all the problems they encounter.

Bianca’s mother stated that she felt quite comfortable with her daughter in Brandon’s company.  I understand why she made that statement.  Quiet, respectful people are often pegged as “safe”. 

Please.  If there’s anything I can tell you from 25+ years do not let your guard down, ever. The are scary people walking amongst us who veil their true intentions with good manners.

Intuition is invaluable when it comes to safety.  Don’t ignore it.  

My heart goes out to Bianca’s mom and grandfather.  That murdering cretin got 25 to life but Bianca’s mom and grandfather got a life sentence.

[howiveaddict]

6 hours ago, LakeGal said:

Bianca was so thin I was thinking she might have had an eating disorder.

I wondered about that too.  She probably did with her other mental issues.  I hope Bianca's sisters are ok.  

[12catcrazy]

Wow, what a tragic story.  A beautiful young girl murdered by a jealous sociopath.  Unfortunately, not an uncommon story, but the twist here was that the murder was filmed and put on social media. 

  One of the things that I, as a sixty-something, find so headshaking is social media and these troubled young people.  At one time, Bianca would have probably lost herself in books and poetry and maybe joined one of the High School clubs that other sensitive kids gravitated to.   Now, these kids get on social media and put themselves out there and attract thousands of mal-adjusted weirdos.   Back in the 70s and 80s, "snuff" films supposedly existed, but people into that kind of horror had to know somebody who knew somebody in very low places and hunt it down but now, wtf, you can see a teenaged girl murdered on all sorts of click of the button social media!!!!    And IT'S LEGAL!  And what does that say about us as a culture and society?  

And the on-going pain of Bianca's family who get subjected to horrible trolls who can reach them through the internet.    The authorities need to get into this century and make internet trolling, threats, and stalking into criminal offenses with some teeth behind it.  

[patty1h]

When they got to the part about trolls harassing Bianca's family, I was so hoping that the producers had tracked down one of these creeps and knocked on their door with a camera crew and asked them to explain their actions.  It would have been interesting to see that asshole squirm when they're pulled away from their keyboard of invisibility.

[howiveaddict]

The airing of this show probably brought out more creeps to harass that poor family.

[Annber03]

Seriously, I'm kinda wary of this new trend of "internet sleuths" that's out there. It's one thing to discuss cases online, like we do here, and bounce theories around and whatnot, but I think too many people are taking that "armchair detective" thing too seriously and get way too invested in solving these cases, to the point where they tend to forget that they're not trained in this kind of investigative work and they may be overstepping some serious boundaries along the way. The public can indeed be very helpful at times with cases, for sure (like that couple who'd been out camping and happened upon the van and realized later on it was the one everyone was looking for). and it's fine to want to offer tips and such if you're able. But I can also easily see all of this backfiring at some point, too, if it hasn't already. 

As for the case itself, I agree with the general sentiments of how the cops handled that moment when Gabby and Brian got pulled over. It seemed very weird to me that they tried to hash this all out right on the side of the road like that, instead of taking them to the nearest station or some other place to properly talk to them. And they were so ready to arrest Gabby on the belief that she was the instigator of the physical fight...only to then let her go when they ask her if she intended to cause him harm, simply because she said, "No." I mean, if they really thought she was the guilty party, to the point where they were going to arrest her, they're just going to take her word like that and shrug it off? 

And indeed, the fact that she was the only woman in a group that consisted of her boyfriend, whom she'd been having issues with, and these male cops, should've definitely been a sign that she may not have been entirely comfortable being fully honest about everything going on. They should've separated her and Brian if they were going to talk to them, because yeah, if her boyfriend's right there, right in her line of sight, right where he can hear what she's saying, of course she's going to present a sanitized version of the story, and one that makes her responsible at that, to spare herself any potential nasty fights later on once the cops have left.

Also, they were going to let the guy stay at a motel and let this young woman stay with the van, out here in an area she's not all that familiar with? That was really bizarre, too. Why not the other way around? Or hell, why not let them both stay at separate motels or something? 

Yeah. I definitely think the cops' actions should be scrutinized further, they seemed more like they wanted to just get this whole thing over with. And given the discussion that's been going on regarding race and how Gabby fits into the "missing white woman" narrative, I think race also played a big factor in how the cops handled Gabby and Brian's domestic dispute, too. Guarantee if they weren't a young white couple, that encounter would've gone a whole lot differently.

I was also struck by the fact that they said that Gabby had been working at a fast food restaurant, and Brian at a supermarket, to save up money for this trip...and that they planned to be gone for months. Did they quit those jobs before they took this trip? 'Cause no way would a fast food place or supermarket allow its employees to just up and travel the country for months on end. Especially not in this current climate, where those types of businesses are so desperate to find and keep workers amidst this pandemic. 

And they either must've worked a crapton of hours or gotten some extra money from family and friends beforehand or something, too, 'cause even with the fact they're cutting down costs by living in a van, that kind of trip is still going to add up after a while in other ways. 

Just such a weird, sad story. It's really freaky to watch these kinds of crimes play out in real time like this, too, you keep looking at the leadup to their disappearance/murder and wishing you could stop time or warn them of what's coming or something. 

[JudyObscure]

I just watched this and they really left a lot out.  I think it's particularly sad that they edited the police cam video to make it look like the police didn't care and really I think they were incredibly nice to Gabby.

I've seen the entire police cam video on You-tube and they spent over an hour with them.  They separated the two far enough that Gabby could talk freely without Brian seeing or hearing her and then a female park ranger came up and talked woman to woman with Gabby.  She even told Gabby that she thought the relationship seemed toxic and suggested that Gabby might want to take this opportunity to "take a different path." 

Ultimately, they didn't have enough reason to arrest either one of them so they just made them promise to stay separate for the night.  They had to make Brian go to the hotel and Gabby stay in the van because Gabby was the legal owner of the van. I think the police and the ranger were all hoping Gabby would just keep on driving back to her mother's house.

I hate to see this turn into a race issue.  The reason this has so much more publicity than the average missing person is that they have all that footage to show from Gabby's  blog and she already had 60,000 followers.  The more famous the more attention. Rhianna gets hit by her boyfriend and it's all over the news. 

Unfortunately, in most missing person cases there's no story to follow and no clues.  It's not just because Gabby is white.  Last year 320,000 white people went missing and we didn't see them on the national news.

[12catcrazy]

Yes!  I want to jump up and applaud for everything Judy Obscure said above.  The entire story is like something out of a tv show or movie.  Beautiful young woman goes on her dream cross country trip with "devoted" fiance and puts it all on video and the internet.   We see them laughing and goofing around and she has a blog (vlog?).  And then, she goes silent and the boyfriend drives back to Florida alone as if nothing is amiss.   He and his parents lawyer up and now he is missing (and probably no where in Florida at this point).   The missing woman's mom lives not all that far away from the media center of the free world (NYC) and she makes enough of a stink to get noticed (or knows the right people who can get her noticed).   And the young missing woman is like the epitome of the all American Girl Next Door.   She's not a druggie, not a hooker, not a person who should have come to this sad end.   If anything, I hope that this case shines a very bright light on domestic violence and how it can happen to ANY woman.  

I live in the next town over to where Gabby was from on Long Island.  I'd like to report that the local press has more details or info than what we're seeing nationally, but that doesn't seem to be the case.   

And to bring up what Annber03 said about Gabby and the boyfriend quitting their jobs.  They also lived with his parents so my guess is that they didn't have a lot of expenses.   It doesn't seem if either one of them were exactly career driven people at this stage of their lives, so I can easily see quitting some crappy job to take the opportunity to travel.   

[hookedontv]

It might just be me, and maybe an unpopular opinion, but Gabby's friend Rose (I think that is her name) rubbed me the wrong way. Rose and Gabby were clearly friends, lots of pics and videos of the two of them together, but there was just something about her that seemed a little off to me. 

Maybe it's because if that happened to my best friend, I don't know if I'd be giving an indepth interview? People react to situations differently I guess.

[ChristmasJones]

Has anyone mentioned the Black Swan episode yet? 

I had never heard of that case before.  I found myself wondering if she may have possibly had some sort of delusional disorder - which is a psychotic disorder where a person has fixed illogical beliefs. The most common form of this is the persecutory type, which is consistent with some of her allegations against her husband.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/conditions/delusional-disorder

Before anyone jumps on me, I am not arguing that she isn't responsible for her crime.  I think it will be very interesting to find out what types of psych evals are done and what the results are. I hope the information comes out in the trial.

[ByaNose]

Jasmine Hartin - Belize Shooting: She’s guilty as all get out. The glock accidentally went off. Um ,sure. Keep telling yourself that. I’m curious what the verdict will be. A slap on the wrist or some serious prison time. 

[Annber03]

Yeah, I'm really skeptical of her story, too. That guy's explanation for how easy it could be to accidentally shoot someone with that gun was interesting and informative, and did make a decent case for that possibility...

...but I dunno, it just always amazes me in these kinds of stories how often these people keep "accidentally" letting the gun go off. Especially since, as they pointed out, this was all being done in the dark. I mean, yeah, people who are drunk can definitely get really stupid and careless with guns, but it just seemed so weird that they'd be doing all of that out on the pier like that, at night. If nothing else, I would think Henry would've been worried about the bullets' or some other part of the gun falling into the water.

And while it's not out of the realm of possibility that a security guard could be so careless with a gun, given how everyone talked about how seriously he took his job, I just don't know that I can see him choosing to show her how the gun works at that time of night on a pier like that. Especially since he's supposedly trying to help her, since, according to her, he felt she needed to protect herself. He would've taken her to a gun range or something to do that instead. 

Those photos of Jasmine with a gun didn't really help her '"I don't know much about guns" argument, either. That, combined with the kinda cagey way she would answer some of the questions (like the whole thing with her holding that white powder for someone - yeah, that's not a cliché response at all, no...)...sure, some of her caginess was likely her having to be careful about what she said as of now, legally speaking, but I agree things didn't go down quite the way she described it. Even if it was an accident, it was one that could've been easily prevented. Like I've said before, I've never held a gun in my life and even I know that if you're just looking at or touching a gun, you never point it at or towards anyone, even if you think it's unloaded. And for as often as she hung around with Henry, and given her prior experience learning to shoot, she'd know that, too. 

Edited October 3, 2021 by Annber03

[TVbitch]

I have no idea if it was an accident or not. They were drinking. Can't think of a motive. And I have accidentally discharged a gun fully sober. (um, at least I didn't shoot myself like that one guy ...but I did shoot every shirt hanging in my closet. Ugh!) Anyway, I just don't know what was going on out there. 

What was unbelievable is that she said after she shot him, he fell on top of her and she had to struggle mightily to get out from underneath him, and in this big struggle his body fell into the water. Bitch, please! He's a big guy, BUT, by her own testimony they were both sitting, and she was sitting behind him in order to give him a shoulder rub. He would have flung forward being shot behind the ear, and even if the body somehow flopped back toward her, it would have just been his upper body leaning against her. It's not like he flew up in the air and his whole body landed on top of her! Did she roll him in the water in a panic when she thought she was gonna lie about what happened? 

In any case, watching her pull off her sunglasses and mug to the 48 Hours camera like she was some huge femme fatale made me hate her.

[Steph J]

1 hour ago, TVbitch said:

I have no idea if it was an accident or not. They were drinking. Can't think of a motive. 

I think she's guilty as hell and an absolutely terrible liar (with a terrible lawyer for letting her go on television and put herself on the record like that; she was about as believable as Prince Andrew), but like you I couldn't think of a motive.

After mulling it over, I think that either she was high as hell on "someone else's" cocaine and messing around with the gun and shot him without meaning to, or (and this is probably going to sound pretty conspiracy theory-ish) she knew that her relationship was about to implode and that she was about to go up against the Ashcrofts' wealth and power in a custody dispute, and she knew that the victim had a thing for her, so she got involved with him as part of an attempt at manipulating him into "saving her" by getting rid of the fiancee, but when she actually came out and directly told him what she wanted him to do, he balked and she panicked and shot him, figuring it would be easier to get away with killing him than it would be to get away with conspiring to kill her fiancee.

[ByaNose]

She also didn’t help herself going to the resort & filming herself ranting & raving to her ex-husband. I do agree that there is no clear motive (at least, to us) for the shooting. Perhaps it was drinking and drugs involved. It might have been accidental but she seems so shady and liked the good life that she she just comes off bad in general. I’m guessing she’ll do a year or two…..I guess. Also, why do these things always happen at foreign resorts while people are on vacation? I never encounter theses problems down the Jersey shore. LOL!!!!!

[pdlinda]

1 hour ago, ByaNose said:

Also, why do these things always happen at foreign resorts while people are on vacation?

First of all, my understanding is that she lived in Belize as an ex-pat from Canada.  She wasn't a tourist.

Second, she referred to the uber wealthy father of her children as her "fiance".  In the inimitable words of Dr. Laura (Schlesinger) I learned years ago that 2 things are required for that title:  a Ring and a Date.  My observation is that neither of these things existed (maybe a ring but that would have been long before this "dynamic duo" reached a frigid point in their relationship after twins are born).  

My overall observation of this woman is that she definitely is not the "sharpest tool in the shed."  In addition, my impression was that she considered herself a  "raving beauty" that I thought was quite exaggerated.

Her failure to legally protect herself as her relationship with the billionaire (father of her children)deteriorated (one can only speculate from the facts we were provided how this estrangement might have arisen) is quite remarkable in its absence.  Her entire lifestyle lent itself to exploitation and she fully cooperated (with her behavior) in having that materialize.

In conclusion, between the heroic reputation and pristine reputation of the beloved victim AND the tremendous clout of the Ashcroft's on this small Island, her legal jeopardy seems quite high.   I wonder who's paying for her defense???

 

[SunnyBeBe]

This incident in Beliz is quite perplexing.  I would have liked to be on the investigation team on this case.  I think more lies beneath the surface.  I’m trying to figure out the REAL connection between the accused and the victim.  Lots to consider, but one thing is the fact that according to what he told his friend, he was dating her, though she denies it. So what was the real connection? She’s a terrible liar and too dense to know it.  I wish they had gotten several gun experts. I don’t buy the opinion of the one they used.  Her story stinks!  When someone says things are a blur……Beware!  That’s code for, the truth hurts, so I can’t recall it. Lol 
 

 I’ve known some women who had an abusve experience in childhood, who for some reason seem compelled to form friendships/affairs with men they really do not consider a real relationship, but one they can use the person or manipulate them. I can see that here.  I can see her enjoying worship from this man.  He thought he had a real shot, but she was not into him.  He finally gets real and says that she needs to make their relationship public and she panics that he will divulge their relationship, which would totally destroy any chance she has with the father of her children.  Makes sense. 
 

The childrens’ father has her number and that she’s not stable. Good the kids are protected.  So, why did he have two kids with her?  
 

As far as the tv interview…..at least she got her version of the story out there, without having to be cross examined.  Or maybe, she went AGAINST legal advice and did it anyway.  You know the saying…People have the right to remain silent, but not the ability. 😝. …..Not sure if that right applies in Belize for Canadians, but I think so. She didn’t have to make statements or do tv interviews. Lol. 

Edited October 17, 2021 by SunnyBeBe

[txhorns79]

Linda O'Keefe's story was a difficult one.  I very much felt for her mother.  I can't imagine the kind of guilt that poor woman had to carry for the rest of her life.  She probably went over that moment where she declined to pick her daughter up at school again and again in her mind until she died.  

I am glad they did find the killer, and it was too bad he died prior to trial. 

[ByaNose]

Linda O’Keefe: Sad story with a some closure for some and not others. It’s too bad for the parents who had to through he tragedy and did not know their was someone held accountable for her death. I just can’t imagine having to play the “what if” over & over in your head as her mother did. She isn’t to blame but I’m sure she never forgave herself. Linda was born two years before me and the 70’s were such a different time and place. I hate to use the phrase “it was a more innocent  time” but it truly was. Linda was doing what all us kids did back then (and, now) was walk home from school with friends but also alone. I know it didn’t occur to me then that someone could have sinister thoughts but what kid does at that age. Two things struck me about the episode in general. One was when the sister says, “What did they (he) do for 12 hours before her death (based on the coroner’s time of death)? Also, the living journal that the woman was writing (I don’t know long) was creepy to me. #RIP Linda O’Keefe

[txhorns79]

15 hours ago, ByaNose said:

One was when the sister says, “What did they (he) do for 12 hours before her death (based on the coroner’s time of death)?

I think that is one thing the sister should be glad she does not know.  Just from the charges mentioned, it sounds like it would be something out of every parent's nightmare. 

[ByaNose]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I think that is one thing the sister should be glad she does not know.  Just from the charges mentioned, it sounds like it would be something out of every parent's nightmare. 

I thought that, too. God knows what that sicko said and did to her in the van. Of course, I’m not close to it like the sister was/is. It’s just another unanswered question she had to live with.

[chediavolo]

On 10/17/2021 at 12:10 AM, txhorns79 said:

Linda O'Keefe's story was a difficult one.  I very much felt for her mother.  I can't imagine the kind of guilt that poor woman had to carry for the rest of her life.  She probably went over that moment where she declined to pick her daughter up at school again and again in her mind until she died.  

I am glad they did find the killer, and it was too bad he died prior to trial. 

Why did she need a ride home? I missed it. Did she tell her to walk? No bus? 

[txhorns79]

25 minutes ago, chediavolo said:

Why did she need a ride home? I missed it. Did she tell her to walk? No bus? 

It was summer school (possibly no bus), and she had been driven to school in the morning.  Linda had called her mom to ask for a ride when school let out, but her mother told her that she was too busy and that Linda should walk home. 

[ByaNose]

4 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

It was summer school (possibly no bus), and she had been driven to school in the morning.  Linda had called her mom to ask for a ride when school let out, but her mother told her that she was too busy and that Linda should walk home. 

Yeah, her mother was either at work or working from home and said she was busy and couldn’t pick her up. She had probably walked home before without any issues and didn’t think twice of it at that time. Such a shame. 

[Annber03]

Station nightclub fire episode - here's a couple things that struck me especially odd right off the bat:

-Setting aside the debate over whether or not the band let the managers know about their use of pyrotechnics (and if they didn't let them know, which seems to be the case given the implication that other clubs were taken by surprise at their use of explosives, then yeah, that part of things is absolutely on the band and I'm glad they were included in the lawsuit, 'cause that's pretty dumb), my question is, why the hell was a tour manager handling the pyrotechnics in the first place? I'm no expert in what tour managers do, mind, but I don't recall them being the ones to handle the pyro at a show. Usually there are people who are, y'know, actual experts with explosives handling that part of things. Maybe if they'd had an actual trained professional on hand, they either might've nixed the pyrotechnics altogether, once they realized the club wasn't set up for such things, or they could've at least found a way to make them more manageable and compliant with safety codes. 

-Seemed awfully convenient that Jeffrey managed to get out through the main entrance before the stampede of people heading that way did, or at least tried to do so, didn't it? As the manager (or co-manager, I should say), shouldn't he have been inside focusing on making sure all the customers got out before he did? Sort of a "captain goes down with the ship" sort of deal? He could've focused on trying to get people to any remaining available exits if possible (granted, that would've been harder and harder to do once the smoke started filling the room, of course, but still), or he could've tried to break a window, something, anything, to help ensure that the crowd had another way out. 

There's a lot of blame to go around, for sure. I agree the fire marshal should've been scrutinized a little further, because it does seem like the inspection wasn't quite as thorough as it should've been. And as noted above, the band holds their share of responsibility, too, for their failure to notify people about the pyrotechnics and such.

But the brothers' attitude really rubbed me the wrong way, with their refusal to take their share of responsibility for what happened, too. They brought a nightclub despite the fact they had no clue how to run one (the fact it was in the process of being sold further proved that). They claimed they got foam that wasn't what they ordered, which, okay, that happens, sure, but even if they didn't know it was flammable (which I'm kind of skeptical about), the fact remains they still knew it wasn't what they ordered. So they should've sent it back and requested they get what they did order instead. One of them made a point of mentioning that they couldn't get a liquor license if they didn't pass the inspection, which seemed rather telling to me, too, in terms of where their priorities really were. They made some decisions, too, that played a role in this tragedy happening, and they need to own up to those decisions and accept that responsibility.

Obviously nobody, from the managers to the band to the fire marshal, was maliciously intending to kill 100 people that night. Taking responsibility for your actions doesn't mean that you're claiming you're, like, a mass murderer or something. It just means you acknowledge your role in failing to prevent a horrible tragedy from happening. Plus, any responsible business manager worth their salt takes responsibility for any tragedy that befalls their company, whether they were actively involved or not, because it's their name and face associated with the company and they want to lead and set an example for others about the importance of accountability. 

And if these guys have all this evidence that supposedly proves they weren't at fault, then, yeah, they've had plenty of time to bring it forward and take it to trial. Instead, they're just sitting here trying to cast the blame on everyone else, and indeed, there's a lot of it to go around...but they need to include themselves in that blame as well. 

The footage of the fire engulfing the building was horrifying. Linda's story about being saved by that officer who managed to hear her kicking at the window was....wow. And poor Phil, too, realizing how close he came to dying. I'm glad they were able to make it out, and I like that they became friends of sorts afterward, to the point where Linda attended his swimming competitions and such :). That's cool. 

The story about Tracy sacrificing his life to save so many others was really moving, too. I can't believe it's been 18 years since that happened already - such a heartbreaking story. I hope those who survived, and who lost loved ones, have managed to find the support and help they've needed over the years to work through all the physical/emotional/mental trauma. 

[TVbitch]

Why did only one brother have to go to prison? It was like because there were two on them, they got to split the punishment and one got prison and one got community service. They should have each gotten both. 

I think the brothers' contention about the foam was that they did not know they received the wrong foam and just installed the foam that was sent to them. I think it does look similar, but the Fire Marshall should have been able to tell.

All in all, the brothers wanting to "shed more light" on the tragedy sounded more like the brothers wanting explain why THEY are not really to blame. 

[Steph J]

1 hour ago, TVbitch said:

Why did only one brother have to go to prison? It was like because there were two on them, they got to split the punishment and one got prison and one got community service. They should have each gotten both. 

I think the brothers' contention about the foam was that they did not know they received the wrong foam and just installed the foam that was sent to them. I think it does look similar, but the Fire Marshall should have been able to tell.

All in all, the brothers wanting to "shed more light" on the tragedy sounded more like the brothers wanting explain why THEY are not really to blame. 

That's the deal the prosecution made with them, presumably because they weren't 100% that they'd get a conviction at trial because the amount of blameworthy conduct by others (the tour manager, the fire marshal) could have resulted in both brothers getting off or both getting no more than community service. Personally, I think the prosecution did bury that fax about the insulation, but that's because I used to work in criminal defense and I've seen the "good guys" do some shady shit.

I don't disagree that they should both have done jail time, but it's not unusual for the prosecution to hedge its bets that way.

[ByaNose]

It’s strange when you remember a story on the news from back in the day. I totally remember seeing this and thinking how tragic it was. I was 39 then and still going to the bars and whatnot. I remember thinking then what would I do in a situation like this? I don’t recall if I even checked where the fire exits were except for the door I came in. Like they said, you had a about 2 minutes to decide and get out or you were probably dead. The brothers were totally responsible. The back door but not really a fire door exit was such a lame excuse. They couldn’t even bring themselves to say they were sorry or else it would mean they are admitting guilt. It was truly tragic. And, now I’m down the rabbit hole on Wikipedia reading similar fires at bars. The whole thing was tragic and in some instances could have been prevented. Hopefully, with sprinkler systems, more fire and carbon monoxide detectors available it won’t happen again. Also, the memorial was beautiful looking. A somber place but surrounded by beauty. 

Edited October 28, 2021 by ByaNose

[Morrigan2575]

On 10/24/2021 at 11:05 PM, ByaNose said:

It’s strange when you remember a story on the news from back in the day. I totally seeing this and thinking how tragic it was.

It's worse when you remember the Law & Order episode that was based on this story 😂

[Court]

I need so much more about this Murdaugh case. There's so many bizarre things and so much death. 

[ByaNose]

The Murdaugh family sounds (sounded) like a barrel of laughs. Jeez! The father and the son(s). All these people dying around them and no one connects the dots until years later. The housekeeper dying at the house?! WTF??? Then somehow they collect insurance money. How does that happen? The one thing I may have missed or it wasn’t mentioned but where is the youngest son now? His mother and brother are dead. His father is in jail. Where the heck is the youngest one? I don’t see a prompting future for that kid if his father raised him like the older brother. It was just crazy all around, 

[Tdoc72]

On 11/1/2021 at 12:41 AM, ByaNose said:

The Murdaugh family sounds (sounded) like a barrel of laughs. Jeez! The father and the son(s). All these people dying around them and no one connects the dots until years later. The housekeeper dying at the house?! WTF??? Then somehow they collect insurance money. How does that happen? The one thing I may have missed or it wasn’t mentioned but where is the youngest son now? His mother and brother are dead. His father is in jail. Where the heck is the youngest one? I don’t see a prompting future for that kid if his father raised him like the older brother. It was just crazy all around, 

The younger son Paul that was drunk driving the boat is dead. Shot with the mom. No idea what the older brother Buster is doing now. He is still named in the civil suit b/c the younger brother used his id to buy booze—I’m assuming w/his permission although I could be wrong. 

[ByaNose]

13 hours ago, Tdoc72 said:

The younger son Paul that was drunk driving the boat is dead. Shot with the mom. No idea what the older brother Buster is doing now. He is still named in the civil suit b/c the younger brother used his id to buy booze—I’m assuming w/his permission although I could be wrong. 

Okay. I was mixing the brothers up. Who knows what that wife saw with her husband & kids. Also, she might have turned her head to it all. Who knows.

[ByaNose]

The Diary of Martha Moxley: While the Kennedy family & their (over extended) family members have endured a lot of tragedy’s in their life time they’ve also gotten away with alleged/not alleged murders, too. I think Kennedy cousin Michael Skakel killed Martha and deserved to be in jail. This case seems to come up every couple of years due to the case being overturned and such. I remember the case originally because Martha Mosley was only 3 years than me and I remember watching the news when it happened. The only takeaway I got from the latest report was Martha’s diary. She gave great detail about the Skakel boys and the going ons in a teenagers life. I felt bad for her mother. She lost her daughter when she was so young in such a heinous manner. 

[TVbitch]

I did not even know you could petition a supreme court to "reconsider." Lucky for him there was new judge on the bench, cuz I think he's guilty as hell. 

[pdlinda]

16 hours ago, ByaNose said:

The Diary of Martha Moxley: While the Kennedy family & their (over extended) family members have endured a lot of tragedy’s in their life time they’ve also gotten away with alleged/not alleged murders, too. I think Kennedy cousin Michael Skakel killed Martha and deserved to be in jail. This case seems to come up every couple of years due to the case being overturned and such. I remember the case originally because Martha Mosley was only 3 years than me and I remember watching the news when it happened. The only takeaway I got from the latest report was Martha’s diary. She gave great detail about the Skakel boys and the going ons in a teenagers life. I felt bad for her mother. She lost her daughter when she was so young in such a heinous manner. 

I found this case to be the epitome of confirming what our criminal justice jury system is all about.  The State has to convince the jury "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the defendant (Skakel) is guilty of committing murder.  They voted to convict; HOWEVER, because of legal technicalities (ineffective assistance of Skakel's counsel, Mickey Sherman), the case was overturned on appeal.

Then, after all the intervening years, the State decided not to re-try the case (probably most of the witnesses either passed away or were not available for whatever other reason, maybe even COVID).

So, in the end, only Skakel, himself knows for sure if he's guilty or not; HOWEVER, I harken back to OJ Simpson.  It seems like if a sociopathic individual (with $$$ and status) convinces himself that he didn't commit the crime and there is no attempt by that person to actively encourage/assist the authorities to pursue the "real" killer, we're left to our own common sense to determine whether, indeed, we believe the individual is guilty or not.

In OJ's case, of course, he was acquitted by a jury.  In Skakel's case, he was convicted but that conviction was questioned on the basis of his lawyer's inability to present his defense effectively.

 

[ByaNose]

2 hours ago, pdlinda said:

I found this case to be the epitome of confirming what our criminal justice jury system is all about.  The State has to convince the jury "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the defendant (Skakel) is guilty of committing murder.  They voted to convict; HOWEVER, because of legal technicalities (ineffective assistance of Skakel's counsel, Mickey Sherman), the case was overturned on appeal.

Then, after all the intervening years, the State decided not to re-try the case (probably most of the witnesses either passed away or were not available for whatever other reason, maybe even COVID).

So, in the end, only Skakel, himself knows for sure if he's guilty or not; HOWEVER, I harken back to OJ Simpson.  It seems like if a sociopathic individual (with $$$ and status) convinces himself that he didn't commit the crime and there is no attempt by that person to actively encourage/assist the authorities to pursue the "real" killer, we're left to our own common sense to determine whether, indeed, we believe the individual is guilty or not.

In OJ's case, of course, he was acquitted by a jury.  In Skakel's case, he was convicted but that conviction was questioned on the basis of his lawyer's inability to present his defense effectively.

 

I forgot to mention Mickey Sherman. I totally remember him on tv every 5 seconds. He’s like a lot of the the high profile attorneys who insert themselves more in to the media to basically land another job as a commentator and/or pundit. He (Sherman) might have actually done what Skakel had claimed.that he was too busy trying to land a tv gig instead of working the case itself. I do agree with the one thing you said about Skakel being the only one (maybe his brother, too) that knows the whole truth about what happened that night.