Fosse/Verdon - General Discussion

[mightysparrow]

1 hour ago, Jordan Baker said:

I just watched All That Jazz. I hadn't seen it since its release in the late '70s. I noticed that Roy Scheider did almost no dancing at all. And he was phenomenal. Blew me away.

The only things I remembered from that long-ago viewing experience were the scene in which he's going through the autopsy room in the hospital, the "Everything Old is New Again" number, and "It's Showtime!" 

Ann Reinking is amazing as a dancer, but I thought her acting was just OK. Jessica Lange was . . . I'm not sure how to describe her. Let's just say she's improved greatly from this early role.

The movie was too long and messy in parts. I still loved it. I think I appreciate it so much more now because of learning more about Fosse and Verdon from this show.

A year before All That Jazz was released, I made my first trip to NYC and saw Dancin'. Sadly, I no longer have the Playbill, but I assume I saw Ann Reinking, Sandahl Bergman, and some of the other dancers from All That Jazz. Wish I could remember it better. 

Roy Scheider makes Sam Rockwell look like Astaire.  And he WAS phenomenal.  

Jessica Lange has improved but at the time she didn't have to be good because she was sleeping with Fosse.

One of my favourite performers in ATJ is the woman who played Joe Gideon's wife.  She was incredible but for some reason she quit acting and went to live on a kibbutz in Israel.  I always thought that Israel's gain was our loss.

I loved the messiness of the film.  I didn't know as much about Fosse as I do now but I got the feeling that he was just as messy as the film.  What I really loved was that it gave us a real glimpse at how a Broadway show was put together.

[alexvillage]

My library had the book - Fosse's biography - so I decided to read it. For m=someone like me, without any real knowledge of most of the characters, and not really knowing much about Fosse - the man, it is a treat.

Very well researched, well written biography. I am enjoying the series, but as far as biographies go, I prefer reading them. And even then, when it is about a "celebrity", it often falls into the unauthorized and/or gossipy category (refer to all the books about JFK Jr for example). This one is neither. When I finish the *massive* volume, I will watch the series again, for sure.

[SeanC]

Minor anachronism:  Bob's joke about "the guy who poisoned Mozart"; this is set in 1974, five years before Shaffer's play debuted in London, and a decade before the film version.  Even if you assume that Bob is a Pushkin superfan, the Salieri myth is not something a person would have been talking about in 1974 with the expectation that other people would understand what you meant.

Edited May 15, 2019 by SeanC

[mightysparrow]

20 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Minor anachronism:  Bob's joke about "the guy who poisoned Mozart"; this is set in 1974, five years before Shaffer's play debuted in London, and a decade before the film version.  Even if you assume that Bob is a Pushkin superfan, the Salieri myth is not something a person would have been talking about in 1974 with the expectation that other people would understand what you meant.

The rumour that Salieri murdered Mozart started soon after Mozart died.  A lot of people knew about it.

[Rinaldo]

28 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Minor anachronism:  Bob's joke about "the guy who poisoned Mozart"; this is set in 1974, five years before Shaffer's play debuted in London, and a decade before the film version.  Even if you assume that Bob is a Pushkin superfan, the Salieri myth is not something a person would have been talking about in 1974 with the expectation that other people would understand what you meant.

I don't think that's really true, @SeanC. The fiction that Salieri poisoned Mozart was started almost immediately after Mozart's death, and doesn't depend on Pushkin or Shaffer. It's slightly esoteric maybe, but Fosse had been hanging around in somewhat musical/literate circles for quite a while and could have picked up the idea that "some guy" was supposed to have killed Mozart. (It's just the sort of thing that a snob like Chayevsky might drop into conversation, for instance.) So I think it can pass.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Rinaldo

[SeanC]

9 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

The rumour that Salieri murdered Mozart started soon after Mozart died.  A lot of people knew about it.

The rumour is what inspired the play, but it was not anything like the cultural common knowledge that scene suggests.  Salieri was pretty much totally forgotten until Amadeus.

[anniebird]

On 5/12/2019 at 8:13 AM, Quilt Fairy said:

  Or, God help us, Lucille Ball as Mame.  

I'm STILL angry about this.

[voiceover]

Christ, I was worn out before the opening credits tonight, and I was just watching.

Been making my way through the book, and Bob's early career in burlesque reads just as queasy as it views.  Probably I'd feel the same about those strippers coming onto him even if my beloved Nephew de Voiceover *wasn't the same age.  But he is.  Which made me want to reach through the screen/turn back the clock, and rip those bitches' faces right the hell off.

Poor, poor Nicole!  My dad spent the year I was 16 in & out of hospitals (colon cancer), and I could hardly bear to look at his face and his wasted athlete's body.  He pulled through it all, and returned to high health and athleticism, but the guilt at my own fear & revulsion haunted me for years.

I cherished only one scene: Gwen with her feet on his hospital bed, knitting away, chiding him to remember the Damn Yankees antidote as it really was.  When this series gets me down, it squeezes in Sam gazing at Michelle like she's the air he breathes, and I buck right up.

Edited May 15, 2019 by voiceover

[Julyolo]

The depiction of him being sexually abused was sensitive. I know a man that had a similar experience at age sixteen with his 28 y/o female teacher. He was groomed by her for about a year. She made sure he understood the cost of their relationship was secrecy. Essentially, he had to lie (by omission) to his family, friends, everyone. It came out when he was 18 and left for college. She followed him, and insisted their relationship continue. He dropped her there. This was circa 1995. Everyone minimized this experience because he was a male......Fast forward to now, and he is still  stuck in this loop of always having 2 lives going on at the same time. One where he appears "normal", with another "shadow" life going on. I think Fosse's molestation(s) deeply impaired his psychosocial adjustment/maturation too.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Julyolo
Misspell

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Gwen: We've been calling and calling and nobody knew which floor you were on so we've been knocking on every door like a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Bob: What do you call an eight week movie shoot that turns into a six month movie shoot? A Bob Fosse picture.

Gwen: First rehearsal tomorrow!
Ron: Yeah, you nervous?
Gwen: No, why would I be nervous? I'm in the best shape of my life.
Ron: I know you are.
Gwen: I mean, I'm not 22 years old anymore, but as long as Bob understands that.
Ron: I'm sure he will.
Gwen: Yes, Bob's famous for his empathy.
Ron: Yeah, well, if he doesn't screw him. You know, don't screw him. I think he'd like that too much.

[Spartan Girl]

So Bob was molested at 13. Wow. That explains a lot. Doesn't excuse his actions but it does explain them.

I had no idea Gwen was the original Roxie Hart. Although the role was perfect for her state of mind during that time: a woman desperate for her fame. Except, of course, Gwen didn't kill anybody lol.

Hope we get to see Michelle sing a number next week!

[TimWil]

Wow. They really did show 13 year old Bobby with the strippers. Yikes. But I suppose they had to in order to really get the point across that he’d been “damaged” from an early age.

I was in a play many years ago with an actor who told me that his older brother, at age 13, was taken by his father to LA brothels and made to have sex with much older prostitutes to “make him a man.” This actor ended up with a sex addiction issue which continued through most of his adult life. Go figure. I won’t confirm or deny guesses, sorry, because the actor is still alive.

When Gwen got Nicole dressed and made-up for that hospital visit she looked uncannily like Jodie Foster’s pubescent hooker character Iris in Taxi Driver, especially with that floppy hat. If she’d been in hot pants and platform shoes she would have been quite the doppelganger. Of course Taxi Driver wasn’t shot until the following summer but still.

OK, Gwen used the term “casting agent” which I am certainly aware is not the term used now-it’s “casting director.” I don’t even think this term was used in 1974 but I guess there’s a reason they had her say it.

Margaret Qualley really is lovely. The bit at the end with that kind older man was very sweet.

I was wondering what the significance might be, if any, of the redhead stripper in the balcony foreground who Bobby kept looking up at during his bows. As far as I know she’s the only redhead we’ve  seen on this show other than Gwen.

Edited May 15, 2019 by TimWil

[alexvillage]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

So Bob was molested at 13. Wow. That explains a lot. Doesn't excuse his actions but it does explain them.

Haven't seen the episode but I am reading the book and in it there is much more that explains Bob. There is a lot in the book that explains Bob. Like you said, it does't excuse but it is really fascinating to see the connections between his early years and how he acted as an older man.

Spoiler

What the strippers did - rape - according to the book was in great part a result from his parents allowing him to do things a young kid shouldn't be doing but Bobby was talented and was making money, so they did't parent him well. The biography is well researched, based on interviews and conversations, including with Bob himself, so while at the point I am in the book nothing has been spelled out very clearly by Bob, I find it plausible

[TimWil]

1 hour ago, TimWil said:

Wow. They really did show 13 year old Bobby with the strippers. Yikes. But I suppose they had to in order to really get the point across that he’d been “damaged” from an early age.

I was in a play many years ago with the brother of an actor who at age 13 was taken by his father to LA brothels and made to have sex with much older prostitutes to “make him a man.” This actor ended up with a sex addiction which continued for most of his adult life. Go figure. I won’t confirm or deny guesses because the actor is still alive.

When Gwen got Nicole dressed and made-up for that hospital visit she looked uncannily like Jodie Foster’s pubescent hooker character Iris in Taxi Driver, especially with that floppy hat. If she’d been in hot pants and platform shoes she would have been quite the doppelganger. Of course Taxi Driver wasn’t shot until the following summer but still.

OK, Gwen used the term “casting agent” which I am certainly aware is not the term used now-it’s “casting director.” I don’t even think this term was used in 1974 but I guess there’s a reason they had her say it.

Margaret Qualley really is lovely. The bit at the end with that kind older man was very sweet.

I was wondering what the significance might be, if any, of the redhead stripper in the balcony foreground who Bobby kept looking up at during his bows. As far as I know she’s the only redhead we’ve  seen on this show other than Gwen.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

All That Jazz/Nowadays with Chita Rivera and Gwen Verdon (1984):

[AriAu]

I have not read the book, but I gotta ask..... did Anne Reinking climb up on top of Fosse 4 days after open heart surgery????

The acting was wonderful, especially Margaret Qualley, but that was another tough and uncomfortable hour. The scene I mentioned above was painful to watch in every way, but the acting was remarkable.

Edited May 15, 2019 by AriAu

[mightysparrow]

Bob Fosse REALLY worked himself to death.  Getting inside the roots of Bob's self-loathing and sexual dysfunction was very uncomfortable to watch but it give so much insight into who he really was.

Sam and Michelle are really incredible together.  It was moving to see that even though she had pushed and manipulated Bob into doing 'Chicago', she was willing to toss it aside for the sake of Bob's health.

I'd be curious to know what Ann Reinking thinks about this.  This is a Nicole Fosse project so we're not getting Ann's version of her relationship with Bob.  That scene in the hospital room was HORRIFYING.

11 hours ago, Julyolo said:

The depiction of him being sexually abused was sensitive. I know a man that had a similar experience at age sixteen with his 28 y/o female teacher. He was groomed by her for about a year. She made sure he understood the cost of their relationship was secrecy. Essentially, he had to lie (by omission) to his family, friends, everyone. It came out when he was 18 and left for college. She followed him, and insisted their relationship continue. He dropped her there. This was circa 1995. Everyone minimized this experience because he was a male......Fast forward to now, and he is still  stuck in this loop of always having 2 lives going on at the same time. One where he appears "normal", with another "shadow" life going on. I think Fosse's molestation(s) deeply impaired his psychosocial adjustment/maturation too.

This happens more often than we'd like to think but it's rarely considered sexual abuse.  The relationship of the President of France and his now wife but then teacher, falls into this category, in my opinion but so many people celebrate it as some sort of love story and a triumph of an older woman being with a younger man.  The same goes for the actor Aaron Taylor-Johnson and his wife, who directed him in a project when he was a teenager.   His wife is held up as a 'role model'.

[TheOtherOne]

1 hour ago, AriAu said:

I have not read the book, but I gotta ask..... did Anne Reinking climb up on top of Fosse 4 days after open heart surgery????

From Vulture's recap:
 

Quote

When Sam Wasson writes about Bob Fosse’s open-heart surgery in his biography Fosse, he depicts the long recuperation process in much the same way as this week’s Fosse/Verdon episode, “All I Care About Is Love,” does. Both the book and the miniseries show Gwen Verdon playing traffic cop, managing the hospital staff and finding ways to sneak Bob’s many friends (and girlfriends) in and out of the private room she secured for him. In Fosse she even pulls the “aging up” trick with Nicole, disguising her to look like just another young dancing starlet, in order to bypass the ward’s “no kids allowed” policy. According to the bio, that visit was just as awkward and melancholy in real life as it is on TV. (“You look like a machine,” the painted and padded Nicole whispers. “I don’t want to say what you look like,” her dad croaks back.)

But Wasson frames Fosse’s hospital sex with Ann Reinking very differently than this episode’s credited writer Ike Holter and director Minkie Spiro do. In the book, the erotic interlude is all about Bob. He’s feeling especially insecure and needy after surgery, and when he’s able to successfully have sex with Ann — proving he’s not impotent — he weeps with relief.

“All I Care About Is Love,” though, shifts the focus to Ann, who in this version clearly isn’t feeling too amorous as she sits at the bedside of a frail old man hooked up to various tubes and wires. Bob pressures her, wallowing in self-pity and making it sound as if he might die right there unless he’s reassured that he can perform as a man. So she reluctantly obliges. And at the end of the episode, she cries in the hallway, telling a concerned older gentleman nearby that the man she’s visiting is her husband — doubling her shame and humiliation, since even that little lie feels like crossing a line.

[Loandbehold]

Definitely a rough episode to watch. Uncomfortable in oh so many ways.

I haven't read the biography, but this episode was so much like what Fosse depicted in All That Jazz, from his time at the burlesque show to the heart attack and recovery.

What made me laugh were the scenes of him editing Lenny Bruce's monologue. In the movie, the director goes through the same thing, including the need to finish as the premiere date was approaching. He edits the scene for hours and hours (if not days and days) to within an inch of its life. The movie comes out to incredibly poor reviews. One critic said that the only scene that was any good was the monologue and that was only because the director let the actor do his own thing. 

[memememe76]

Did Lenny do that poorly? I haven't seen it, but it got a good number of Oscar nominations, including Best Picture, Actor, Actress and Director. The big awards. While there are the occasional nominated movies that get recognized despite poor reviews, it's usually because they make a lot of money at the box office. 

[sistermagpie]

27 minutes ago, memememe76 said:

Did Lenny do that poorly? I haven't seen it, but it got a good number of Oscar nominations, including Best Picture, Actor, Actress and Director. The big awards. While there are the occasional nominated movies that get recognized despite poor reviews, it's usually because they make a lot of money at the box office. 

I think in All that Jazz the idea is that it does get good reviews and it does really well when it opens, but the producer hides bad reviews from Bob. Then he makes the mistake of watching this one TV reviewer because the producer saw her after the screening and he was sure she'd give it a good one. Instead she gives the scathing review quoted above where yes, she says the only good scenes are the ones where the actor just had "free rein"--the scene we've seen the director edited over and over to get it right.

She gives the scene, based on her four balloon rating system "half a balloon." (Cue deflating balloon noise.)

I had the same thought in this ep, though, that it was the All The Jazz episode: heart attack in the hospital, premiere of Lenny, rehearsals for the musical, the pills. I even expected him to snap at the girl assisting with the editing/sleeping with him when she made a comment. ("Who asked you, Stacy?")

[TimWil]

For a brief period of time I actually knew the actress who played Stacy in All That Jazz. She was a lovely English girl. I wondered why the same character was American in Fosse/Verdon

Bobby with the strippers in Fosse/Verdon struck me as far more disturbing than the fictionalized young Joe Gideon with the strippers in All That Jazz for several reasons. One is that Bobby in Fosse/Verdon is 13 and looks it. In All That Jazz Joe looks to be 16 or 17. Another is that in All That Jazz it could appear to some viewers that the strippers “messing with him” was a teasing/bullying prank which resulted in a sight gag (the stain on the front of his pants). Yet another reason (and I know I should tread lightly here) is that Joe in All That Jazz is nerdy looking and not particularly attractive in a sexual way (sorry, all these years later I still think Keith Gordon wasn’t believable casting as a younger version of Roy Scheider’s Joe). The boy who plays Bobby is handsome-the camera knowingly worships his shiny face and perfect teeth in close-up when he’s taking his bows. So when the strippers “mess with him” it’s most likely that what they were doing to him was no teasing/bullying prank, they were actually turned on by this young boy’s looks (and undeniable talent), grabbed at the opportunity for intimate relations with him and thus committed thoroughly disgusting acts upon/with a minor. I thought Bob’s warring emotions about this bizarre coming-of-age scenario were beautifully expressed in last night’s episode.

Edited May 15, 2019 by TimWil

[Loandbehold]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I think in All that Jazz the idea is that it does get good reviews and it does really well when it opens, but the producer hides bad reviews from Bob. Then he makes the mistake of watching this one TV reviewer because the producer saw her after the screening and he was sure she'd give it a good one. Instead she gives the scathing review quoted above where yes, she says the only good scenes are the ones where the actor just had "free rein"--the scene we've seen the director edited over and over to get it right.

She gives the scene, based on her four balloon rating system "half a balloon." (Cue deflating balloon noise.)

I must admit, I was going by faulty memory. I actually only watched All That Jazz when it came out and since then have only watched clips of Ann Reinking dancing or the big finale. I didn't recall the movie Gideon directed received good reviews, just what the one critic said. Thanks for clarifying that.

[sistermagpie]

Just now, Loandbehold said:

I must admit, I was going by faulty memory. I actually only watched All That Jazz when it came out and since then have only watched clips of Ann Reinking dancing or the big finale. I didn't recall the movie Gideon directed received good reviews, just what the one critic said. Thanks for clarifying that.

I'm going by memory too so I could be wrong! Also it occurs to me that I'm also going by lines said by the producer who's obviously trying to put the best spin on things possible. So the fact that he's claiming it's a blockbuster and there are lines around the block etc. could be an exaggeration. 

[mightysparrow]

One of the problems with 'Fosse/Verdon' is a lot of people are going to use 'All That Jazz' as the Rosetta Stone.  It's hard not to because they're both about the same subject and Fosse was pretty honest about his life in ATJ.  But they're different pieces.  'Fosse/Verdon' is about the relationship between Bob Fosse and Gwen Verdon, so even though we have a lot of the same set pieces, they're different.  'Fosse/Verdon' doesn't go as easy on Ann Reinking as ATJ does (for obvious reasons).  Her character plays a much more prominent role in Joe Gideon's life than Ann does in Fosse's.

Fosse is much more ambivalent about his sexual abuse in ATJ.  The strippers aren't as predatory and they're definitely more attractive.  And the Joe Gideon character is older so it doesn't hit as hard.  Fosse was probably still dealing with his issues around that incident so he played it for laughs rather than the horror it really was.

The Gwen Verdon character is a peripheral character in ATJ; here we see just how important Gwen was to Bob and vice versa.

I loved the scene between Gwen and the doctor in 'Fosse/Verdon'.  That asshole comes into a sick man's hospital room and he doesn't even have the courtesy to recognize GWEN VERDON.  You can see it stings but Gwen takes that insult and turns it around on the doctor by getting Bob a private room and all the privileges that go with it.  All she has to do is give up tickets that probably weren't going to be used anyway, and a few autographs.  I hope she also made a call to the AMA.

I agree with @TimWil; Nicole did look like Jodi Foster's character in 'Taxi Driver'.  That poor child never really got to be a little girl.

[seacliffsal]

I was bored by this episode.  At first I enjoyed the parallel between Fosse's life and his comedy/Lenny Bruce act but then it just felt like it went on and on and on.  I guess that I'm really here for background on how he/they put the musicals and movies together.  

[atlantaloves]

God, I hated this episode...I had to fast forward through a lot of it, it was just flat nasty and hateful. But man, I'll stick it out, cause honey I am a broadway baby.  Blaughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. 

[tennisgurl]

This was a really hard watch, but it was positively fascinating and gripping television. Seeing 13 year old Bobby and those strippers was just awful to see, God he was such a fresh faced little kid who so clearly loved to dance, even if he was dancing in a trashy burlesque house to give money to his crappy parents, and its so heartbreaking to compare that to his current cynical, hard living self who is literally working himself to death. Its awful to see (just the one scene last week where they flashed to the rape was hard enough, but see it in more detail was far worse) but it really does give a lot of context to why Bobby is the way that he is. His views on sex, power, and women are deeply fractured largely due to being sexually abused and exploited as a child, and its so very sad, but also fascinating. Here is Bobby at the top of his creative and professional game, a genius and a giant in his field, but he has never dealt with his horrific traumas from childhood, and has never found real happiness. It does not excuse his own awful behavior towards the women in his life, but it does certainly explain a lot of it. 

I think the lines that really got to me were when Bobby was on the stage and said that he "had sex before he even knew what sex was"which was so deeply chilling to me, and the whole bit about how he was "the luckiest boy in the world" for being raped by middle aged strippers when he was 13. Its an attitude you see from people and the media at large, just the idea that a male (even if he is an actual child) could be a victim of a women is just ridiculous, and that any man should want sex at any time, and a women having sex with a boy is an accomplishment for the boy (you see it so often, even today, in these awful female teacher/male student scandals, where its just fodder for late night comedians and lots of "atta boy" and "cougar" kinds of reactions) and not the horrible violation that it is. 

On a happier note, I do love Chicago, so I am excited that we are doing its songs and bits now, I am super excited to see more of its original run coming together. And its nice to see how Gwen did put his health above her beloved Chicago project, and in episodes like this, you really can see their connection, even when they arent actually together anymore. they were a true meeting of the minds, and they were so in tune artistically, whether or not they were together had little to do with it. 

Gwen with that doctor really was smooth as silk, and Michelle played it all beautifully. She went from being understandably pissed at that asshole doctor bugging Bobby for an autograph (right after a heart attack!) to sweet as honey when she realized she could use this to their advantage. 

[Rinaldo]

13 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Gwen with that doctor really was smooth as silk, and Michelle played it all beautifully. She went from being understandably pissed at that asshole doctor bugging Bobby for an autograph (right after a heart attack!) to sweet as honey when she realized she could use this to their advantage. 

It was really a joy (in a distanced objective way) to watch her work it. First she's understandably appalled. Then she puts on her "public" face for him before even having a plan in mind (she's well practiced at being gracious to assholes). As she talks she builds her guilt trip, including a well-timed mention of who she is (and if he really is a Fosse fan he'll know about her too and feel like a worm for his obliviousness) and mixes in Bob's lack of a private room just when the doc'll do anything to make amends. Lovely work.

Lenny got mixed reviews, but most films do (Cabaret didn't get 100% raves), and was #20 in domestic revenue for its year. It did cement Bob's status as a director of stature, not just for musicals, and as noted above it was nominated for 6 Academy Awards, including the "big five." It didn't win any, but it was a very competitive year, what with The Godfather Part II.

[kathe5133]

What horrible lives both of them lead.  He was tormented by his past and his present.  Felt compelled to bang anything that moved.   She was always "playing a role".  She was playing at being a dutiful wife, playing the Bobby would direct Chicago, playing that he would recover.  Dressing her young daughter up to pass as an adult to sneak her into the hospital.  I get an element that she's even playing with that guy. (don't know his name, Jake, Fran?  Oh, he played Fran in Girls...).  It seems like she was never herself with anyone, ever.  It makes me sad.  I know she was honest during the last episode when she told Ann just what to expect from Bob.  But that honesty bubbled up in a rage that she had suppressed until it just bubbled over.  I think it's horrible to always have to play a role and never be able to be yourself unless your enraged.  Yeah, she was a star on Broadway.  But now she's dead, and this is how she's being portrayed in a TV miniseries produced by her daughter.  Horribly sad.

[Blakeston]

I'm not sure how much credit I give Gwen for caring about Bobby's health. She pushed the show back after the heart attack, but I don't know how much choice she had in the matter.

Bob was obviously headed for something terrible, healthwise, when he was doing Chicago and Lenny at the same time (those coughing fits, ugh), and Gwen didn't seem particularly concerned about anything except ensuring that her show would go on.

As for Nicole, I was shocked by how old she looked at the beginning of the episode. The new actress has to be a lot older than the one in the previous episode - and the previous episode wasn't set that much earlier than this one.

The oversized "grown up" outfit had the effect of making her look younger.

[alexvillage]

54 minutes ago, kathe5133 said:

What horrible lives both of them lead.  He was tormented by his past and his present.  Felt compelled to bang anything that moved.   She was always "playing a role".  She was playing at being a dutiful wife, playing the Bobby would direct Chicago, playing that he would recover.  Dressing her young daughter up to pass as an adult to sneak her into the hospital.  I get an element that she's even playing with that guy. (don't know his name, Jake, Fran?  Oh, he played Fran in Girls...).  It seems like she was never herself with anyone, ever.  It makes me sad.  I know she was honest during the last episode when she told Ann just what to expect from Bob.  But that honesty bubbled up in a rage that she had suppressed until it just bubbled over.  I think it's horrible to always have to play a role and never be able to be yourself unless your enraged.  Yeah, she was a star on Broadway.  But now she's dead, and this is how she's being portrayed in a TV miniseries produced by her daughter.  Horribly sad.

I disagree. I am reading the book and it is not so black and white, the book give us a lot more insight based on actual research. I don't think the series show them as miserable or horrible, even if Bob did do horrible things. AS already said by others here, while his actions are not excusable, the context - time and circumstance - in which they happened explain a lot. I kind of admire Nicole for overseeing a biography that doesn't whitewash who her patents were (assuming she has the power to change things on her own). I guess her work in the foundation established to preserve their work speaks for itself.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

20 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

'Fosse/Verdon' doesn't go as easy on Ann Reinking as ATJ does (for obvious reasons). 

I think Ann has been portrayed pretty sympathetically on F/V. She is not being out to be the bad guy at all.

[Loandbehold]

22 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I think Ann has been portrayed pretty sympathetically on F/V. She is not being out to be the bad guy at all.

I agree. I was wondering, given Nicole's role for the show, how Ann would be portrayed. I guess she really did have a connection w/ Ann. 

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

I'm not sure how much credit I give Gwen for caring about Bobby's health. She pushed the show back after the heart attack, but I don't know how much choice she had in the matter.

I'm with you. Ann told her (and the doctor probably did as well) that Bob needed to take time off before his next project, yet Gwen pushed him to do Chicago b/c she thought she needed it before she was considered too old to play a lead on Broadway. Once he had the heart attack, she did work to keep the show alive even though it would obviously have to be delayed. And she definitely took care of Bob by getting him the private room (through that brilliant performance / bribe of that obnoxious doctor) and sneaking in Nicole to see him. 

[raven]

9 hours ago, Blakeston said:

As for Nicole, I was shocked by how old she looked at the beginning of the episode. The new actress has to be a lot older than the one in the previous episode - and the previous episode wasn't set that much earlier than this one.

Right??  When they show her sitting on the couch, right before Gwen gets her ready to go to the hospital, I'm thinking "who's that?"  She looked about 25 years old to me.    I felt so badly for Nicole, being forced to see her dad like that.  Maybe because it brought up memories of my own - the whole hospital vigil thing can be just.so.awful and I didn't like that Gwen dragged her there.   I also felt badly for Nicole last week, stuck in a house with a bunch of adults over a rainy weekend. 

My heart broke for young Bob, with those terrible parents and the rape.  I thought the actor playing young Bob conveyed so much with his expressions.

I find the Fosse/Verdon relationship fascinating, especially Gwen.   Michelle Williams was a-fucking-mazing this episode; she's been excellent overall but there was so much to work with - we get fun mom, woman with boyfriend, then ambitious, hard working woman, woman who knows how to work Bob, woman who still loves Bob in a way...so much.  The scene with the doctor, when she gets the private room, was fantastic.   I also had to laugh at how easily she rattled off all of the drugs Bob was doing when he was first brought to the hospital!  Of course she knows!  Then Bob starts having a heart attack right there! Just great work from MW and Sam Rockwell. 

I really enjoy the rehearsal scenes and am looking forward to more of that next week.   Loving this series overall.

[mightysparrow]

9 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I think Ann has been portrayed pretty sympathetically on F/V. She is not being out to be the bad guy at all.

I don't think she's being portrayed as a 'bad guy'.  I think she's being portrayed very sympathetically.  I just think she's being portrayed as not being as important to Bob or his world as one would think.  She seems to be on the sidelines of his life.  Her major contribution this week was to prove to Bob that his dick still worked.

[elle]

This is the third actress according to imdb to play Nicole: Chandler Head in ep 1-2, Blake Baumgartner in 3-4-5, and Juliet Brett 6-7-8.  I was surprised to find out there was an early actress since I missed the transition between ep 2 and 3.  This is so unlike the change in this episode which I found jarring and distracting.  I thought she may have been a new nanny when we first saw her.  I even "rewound" the scene to make sure I did hear Gwen call her Nicole. I was also questioning my recollection of when the last episode took place since it appeared to me Nicole has aged about 5 years.  I will be interested in seeing her next to the actress playing Ann since she looked to be about the same age to me.

I wondered about why Gwen wasn't making more of a fuss about Bob's room at the hospital. He just had a heart attack and that situation would be so stressful, why wouldn't they recognize this and move him to a single room?  I was also wondering what was going on with the roommate, whether or not he might have dementia since he was going on about "why are they hurting me".

This was a rough episode.  It felt exploitive to me and could have benefited from more editing.

Speaking of edits, why was the scene of the audience of wounded sailors/soldiers paired with the 13 year old Bob?  If it was meant to connect back to him being in the hospital, they could have shown the clip of him dancing in uniform then him in the audience.

I would have liked to know more about how Gwen was dealing with Bob's illness and the impact on the musical and the movie.

It seemed to me that there were more and longer commercial breaks in this episode, did anyone else notice this?

For those reading the book, is there any mention of Bob's siblings?  We see a sister this episode and didn't he mention brothers earlier?

Edited May 17, 2019 by elle

[JeanneH]

Turner Classic Movies aired the movie "Hollywood Canteen" Thursday night. At about the 90 minute mark a dance act comes on stage to entertain the (WW2) troops, and there was Joan McCracken (playing herself), fresh from Oklahoma on Broadway. Wow, she was good!   That movie will probably be available VOD or on their website for a week or two.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Even though it was a brief appearance, I loved seeing Alex Wong from So You Think You Can Dance during this week's rehearsal scene!

[alexvillage]

The casting of this new Nicole was terrible. The actress is 26 years old, she is playing Nicole at 12. She does look older than the actress playing Ann. Big miss.

I don't think Ann is being portrayed as "bad guy". It seems about right and they are focusing on another relationship, so things will go unmentioned. 

I might be the only one but I guess the rape memory scenes were well done.

6 hours ago, elle said:

For those reading the book, is there any mention of Bob's siblings?  We see a sister this episode and didn't he mention brothers earlier?

Yes, it mentions the 3 older brothers and one older sister, then a younger sister who was much younger than in the show though, and Bob loved her to death, according to the book. After their parents died, Bob only kept closer (kind of) with the younger sister, Marianne. 

[Rinaldo]

7 hours ago, JeanneH said:

there was Joan McCracken (playing herself), fresh from Oklahoma on Broadway. Wow, she was good! 

Anyone curious about Joan McCracken should check out her one big movie role, in the 1947 version of Good News. She was given a newly inserted number as a showcase, "Pass That Peace Pipe" (as you might guess, be ready for some Native American stereotypes of the period). One can see why she popped out of the Oklahoma! chorus and eventually had to be ID'd in the Playbill as "the girl who falls down" (because everyone had been asking). Here she is preserved, as historian Ethan Mordden puts it, "loud and weird and delightful."

Edited May 17, 2019 by Rinaldo

[Loandbehold]

4 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

Anyone curious about Joan McCracken should check out her one big movie role, in the 1947 version of Good News. She was given a newly inserted number as a showcase, "Pass That Peace Pipe" (as you might guess, be ready for some Native American stereotypes of the period). One can see why she popped out of the Oklahoma! chorus and eventually had to be ID'd in the Playbill as "the girl who falls down" (because everyone had been asking). Here she is preserved, as historian Ethan Mordden puts it, "loud and weird and delightful."

Thanks for the link. Wow, she was phenomenal. I've never seen Good News, but my aunt loved that movie. I remember my father joking that she thought that was what college life was like. She would say she knew it wasn't, but she thought it should be.

[elle]

5 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

Anyone curious about Joan McCracken should check out her one big movie role, in the 1947 version of Good News. She was given a newly inserted number as a showcase, "Pass That Peace Pipe" (as you might guess, be ready for some Native American stereotypes of the period). One can see why she popped out of the Oklahoma! chorus and eventually had to be ID'd in the Playbill as "the girl who falls down" (because everyone had been asking). Here she is preserved, as historian Ethan Mordden puts it, "loud and weird and delightful."

The Ballet in Jive is also available online. It is a pity that her performance on stage was not captured for posterity but we have these clips.  This one is worth a couple of views to watch all of what Joan does and then a couple to see what is going on in the background.

[Neurochick]

On 5/15/2019 at 10:42 AM, mightysparrow said:

This happens more often than we'd like to think but it's rarely considered sexual abuse.  The relationship of the President of France and his now wife but then teacher, falls into this category, in my opinion but so many people celebrate it as some sort of love story and a triumph of an older woman being with a younger man.  The same goes for the actor Aaron Taylor-Johnson and his wife, who directed him in a project when he was a teenager.   His wife is held up as a 'role model'.

I am no psychologist, so I can't say for sure about this.  But to me, the reason these relationships are messed up isn't because of the age, but the power dynamic; a teacher is more powerful than a student; a director is more powerful than an actor. 

I think the reason people don't see it as sexual abuse when it's younger man/older woman, is because, at least today in this society, men have power over women.  Most people in power are male, so that's why I think that type of relationship isn't seen as abusive.  However, it does fuck up the boys in these situations because those types of relationships can make a person confuse sex with power.

[Quilt Fairy]

15 hours ago, elle said:

I wondered about why Gwen wasn't making more of a fuss about Bob's room at the hospital. He just had a heart attack and that situation would be so stressful, why wouldn't they recognize this and move him to a single room?  I was also wondering what was going on with the roommate, whether or not he might have dementia since he was going on about "why are they hurting me".

People in the hospital are not there because they're feeling great.  I remember being in the recovery room after a knee replacement and I was moaning.  A lot.  I was moaning because I was in pain.  A nurse came and asked me to stop moaning because I was disturbing the other patients.  I did not give a flying fuck who I was disturbing.  Because I was IN PAIN.  (I was also still coming out of anesthesia, so kind of out of it anyway.)

To bookend that experience, I was later in the hospital for back surgery, and after 2 days in a double room by myself, an elderly woman was brought in from the ER with some not yet diagnosed problem.  It turned out that she was hard of hearing and didn't have her hearing aids with her.  That meant that every conversation was carried out in triplicate: at normal level, at a much louder level, and finally at VERY LOUD.  Now, I was still in pain myself, and after one night of this I told the nurse that they better find me a different room because I would not put up with it any more.  Luckily the hospital was trying to transition to every patient in their own room so I was moved.  (Why they didn't put the older woman in a room by herself to begin with I don't know. )

All that being said, Fosse was Fosse, and I'm surprised that he would not have rated his own room from the start.  Certainly a hospital in NYC should know how to deal with celebrities. 

Edited May 17, 2019 by Quilt Fairy

[elle]

12 hours ago, alexvillage said:

The casting of this new Nicole was terrible. The actress is 26 years old, she is playing Nicole at 12. She does look older than the actress playing Ann. Big miss.

That explains why I thought Ann looked younger than Nicole in the hospital room scene.  I wonder why they didn't keep the actress from the previous episode since the time between the two episodes is only a few months.

4 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

People in the hospital are not there because they're feeling great.  I remember being in the recovery room after a knee replacement and I was moaning.  A lot.  I was moaning because I was in pain.  A nurse came and asked me to stop moaning because I was disturbing the other patients.  I did not give a flying fuck who I was disturbing.  Because I was IN PAIN.  (I was also still coming out of anesthesia, so kind of out of it anyway.)

I wonder what was the problem with the roommate.  He was obviously in pain but some of the things he said made me think he didn't understand where he was or why he was there.  Besides asking if something could be done to help that poor man, Gwen could have been more insistent that this was not a good situation for husband who was recovering from a heart attack and waiting for heart surgery.  If she was not getting help from the nurses then she should keep telling anyone who would listen until something was done. To be clear I am not trying to blame the nurses, I know they are very busy. Sometimes you have to really insist to indicate how seriously you feel the issue is.

I was held overnight for a kidney stone (!), while they decided if I needed more intervention than what they had already done.  Hooked up to an IV, I was up every hour so my sleep wasn't the issue. My elderly roommate was very nice but that night started either to have hallucinations or was lucid dreaming.  Really freaked me out!  Thankfully there was a wonderful nurse who reassured me that this was not the first time it had happened and  talked patiently and gently with the woman to calm her down. (It involved an argument with her daughter who was definitely not there in the wee hours of the morning.)

[lucindabelle]

Dancing in front of the wounded is a callback to how he got the director role for Cabaret. He told cy Feuer about that experience and the contrast of happy face and feet and people maimed and dead inside.

yes Michelle Williams was on cabaret , in the recent revival with alan Cumming on Broadway (2014).

i have always loved Pippin. The music and the story too- never understood why people say it has no story, it’s about a young idealistic man trying to find himself. 

I didn’t see it on broadway as a child but from clips adore Ben Vereen- the one thing I did NOT like about the recent Broadway revival was that the Player seemed evil and dangerous. I’ve always thought it’s way more effective for him to seem friendly and appealing and only gradually come to realize the danger.

the end of Pippin where he chooses the young widow singing “I guess I’ll miss the man” always chokes me up. The woman who sang it on broadway recently had a Stevie nicks type voice which was perfect.

this last episode bores me though. First one that did. The bit where he kept being Lenny went on too long. I feel that he show has spent quite a lot of time on his inner demons making him sick...

neil Simon clearly remarried on the rebound. It’s the subject of his play “act II.” He never got over Joan. He should have waited at least a year. I think he divorced Marsha Mason eventually.

not wanting to look at a beloved parent all laid low and sick- aw poor nicole. When I had bronchitis a few years ago my cat was afraid to look at me too. I’d pick her up and put her on the bed and she’d run away, paws over her ears metaphorically singing lalalala. She was just out of kittenhood. Now that she’s grown up, she can take it...

Edited May 19, 2019 by lucindabelle

[alexvillage]

A little interesting fact I learned from the book: Michael Bennett - A Chorus Line -  and Fosse didn't like each other (Bob criticized Bennett's style in an arrogant/jealous way). Chicago and A Chorus Line opened at the same time, the previews praised A Chorus Line and trashed Chicago (initially). Years later Nicole Fosse was in the A Chorus Line movie.

And Ann was the lead on A Chorus Line fora a while. 

Edited May 19, 2019 by alexvillage

[Night Cheese]

I finally caught up with this show after being consistently a couple episodes behind, and I'm really enjoying it. I don't know how, because I have been a theater/music theater fan since I was young, but I've never heard of Gwen Verdon or Bob Fosse until this show. I know their contemporaries, and I've seen quite a few of the movies they're associated with. Cabaret definitely stands out above all the rest, but I can't say that I ever knew who directed it, or what he contributed to the musical theater world. The only explanation I can think of is that I've never been much into the choreography side of musical theater because I happen to be terribly unrhythmic, so their work as dancer/choreographer has always been lost on me. I'm somewhat ashamed that I didn't know these two talents before, but am also excited now because it opens up a new chapter of musical theater history that I can dive into via books, youtube clips, and having a new frame of reference when rewatching their movies.

[Miss February]

Michelle Williams and Sam Rockwell are so good in this. I don't want the series to end.

Quote

That explains why I thought Ann looked younger than Nicole in the hospital room scene.  I wonder why they didn't keep the actress from the previous episode since the time between the two episodes is only a few months.

This makes no sense to me. And the casting decision for the new actress couldn't be worse. It actually lowered the production quality of the episode.