Fosse/Verdon - General Discussion

[AriAu]

Quote

Bob Fosse is so unlikable that I don't know if I can continue watching this. Fuck Bob Fosse, I don't care how talented he was.

Yeah, that was a tough watch last night. Mrs. Au looked at me and sarcastically said "well,that was fun" and I couldn't disagree.

Not only was he a serial sexual harasser, cheater and all around miserable guy to be around, but he was also a really cocky jerk..." that's the look they give me on a little movie called Cabaret"

Edited May 1, 2019 by AriAu

[Blakeston]

4 hours ago, Snow Apple said:

Since the first episode, I was annoyed with all the scenes with Bob sleeping with all the different women. Like, we get it. 

But he was just so gross in this episode. I've been disliking him but now I hate him. I laughed when Ron beat him up.

Considering what he was like in real life, I think it would be irresponsible to not show him having tons of sex, and bullying dancers who won't sleep with him...but man oh man is it unpleasant to watch.

I think that's why they twice showed him being physically assaulted in this episode - as a gift to the audience!

As much as I dislike Fosse as a person, I thought this episode was riveting from beginning to end. The second scene with Joan in the hospital was amazing. I can't even imagine what it would be like to have your best friend tell you, "I know I'm dying, and my dying wish is for you to take care of your own child."

[mightysparrow]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

My first exposure to Pippin was when we sang "Corner of the Sky" in sixth grade, so I have a soft spot for that show.

I really felt for the blonde dancer who Bob walked home after rehearsal. I remember being in similar situations so many times where you have to keep politely saying no to some guy who refuses to take no for an answer. It's almost worse when they attempt to be charming because then they try to turn it around on you or proclaim their innocence. For anyone who is lucky enough that they've never experienced sexual harassment or sexual battery, this is a pretty textbook example:

Fosse: Is this your place?
Sherry: Fifth floor.
Fosse: I'll walk you up.
Sherry: That's fine, Bobby. Thank you.
Fosse: I want to tell you more about the number.
Sherry: Can we talk to morrow? I'm just so tired.
Fosse: Stunning. You're so beautiful, you know that?
Sherry: Thank you.
[Bob touches her face and leans in to kiss her]
Sherry: I should go.
Fosse: What? You got plans? You got a hot date?
Sherry: I'm just wiped out.
Fosse: Tell me about it. Why don't we lie down together?
Sherry: I have a boyfriend.
Fosse: I won't tell him.
Sherry: Bobby.
Fosse: Invite me in. Yeah?
Sherry: I really need to go.
Fosse: I just want a kiss good night. Come on, a real kiss. How about a real kiss?
[Bob kisses her]
Sherry: Sorry, Bobby, I just-
Fosse: What's wrong? Why are you sorry?
Sherry: I can't.
Fosse: What's happening to me? I don't know what to do about it.
Sherry: Bobby, I want us to be friends.
Fosse: I want that too. I want to build a piece for you.
Sherry: Bobby, stop. Bobby, stop, Bobby, stop, Bobby, stop!

Shit like this happens all the time in real life. What makes it worse for Sherry is that Fosse has all the power and he exercises it the next day by taking away the dance with Ben that he'd been dangling in front of her and replacing her with someone else. And Gwen knows exactly what her husband is like because when she sees him cut Sherry and replace her with Ann:

Gwen: Lousy dancer or bad lay?
[Bob sighs]
Gwen: Oh, no. Both.
Bob: [Sherry] doesn't know how to take direction.
Gwen: [Ann]'s good.
Bob: Yeah.
Gwen: She's too good for you.
Bob: What does that mean?
Gwen: It means she knows she doesn't have to visit your hotel room to get the solo.
 

This was incredibly painful to watch.  I can imagine it was painful for a lot of women who have been in this EXACT situation.  Not just the 'seduction' attempt (a lot men think this behaviour is 'seductive') but the punishment that comes after, especially if the man is in a position of power over the woman.  My heart broke for her during the rehearsal when Fosse humiliated her in front of her peers.  It broke even more when she capitulated in order to keep her job.  It's easy to hate Bob Fosse but he wasn't the only man who behaved like that.  He probably wasn't even the worst.  That same scenario was probably being played out at the exact same moment, all over the world.  That's the tragedy. 

I gasped when Joan Simon asked Gwen to look out for Nicole.  I thought she was going to ask her to look out for her daughter.  Then I realized that Joan knew how neglected Nicole was.  Between her own career and being Bob Fosse's 'muse', Gwen didn't have a lot of time for Nicole and Joan KNEW that Bob wasn't much of a parent.  You could see the shock of realization wash over Gwen at that moment.  That friendship was beautifully played by both actors. 

It's clear that Ann Reinking was playing the long game.  She knew that fucking Bob Fosse wasn't going to get her anywhere.  She was going to dance her way to where she wanted to be and THEN fuck Fosse to keep it.  Gwen saw that right away.

I'm glad to see that Ben Vereen is getting some well-deserved shine.  He wasn't just in 'All That Jazz'.  He was probably the best thing in 'Pippen' and was a leading interpreter of the Bob Fosse 'style' for years.  The first time I heard 'Corner of the Sky', Ben Vereen sang it.  I can't remember what show it was on but I remember I was transfixed.

It felt good to see that Gwen had a man in her bad when Bob 'came home'.   The irony was that as soon as Ron realized who he had beat up, he immediately became deferential because he was an actor and he had just beat up BOB FOSSE.  Poor Gwen.

I'm glad that Nicole's story is being told amidst all the backstage drama.  I can imagine that for her whole life people would tell her how lucky she was to have grown up in that environment.  I think adult Nicole is saying 'not so much'. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

5 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

This was incredibly painful to watch.  I can imagine it was painful for a lot of women who have been in this EXACT situation.  Not just the 'seduction' attempt (a lot men think this behaviour is 'seductive') but the punishment that comes after, especially if the man is in a position of power over the woman.  My heart broke for her during the rehearsal when Fosse humiliated her in front of her peers.  It broke even more when she capitulated in order to keep her job.  It's easy to hate Bob Fosse but he wasn't the only man who behaved like that.  He probably wasn't even the worst.  That same scenario was probably being played out at the exact same moment, all over the world.  That's the tragedy. 

Not only that but the fact that she APOLOGIZED after she kicked him in the nuts. This is one of the many fucked up things about the world. A man pushes a woman against a fence and gropes her, she defends herself to stop him, and then she feels bad enough about the situation that she apologizes when she didn't actually do anything wrong.

I was actually surprised that he ended up putting her in that little solo group at all afterward, but it became clear that he only did it so that he could take it away from her and make it hurt even more when she had to watch someone else take her place.

[Spartan Girl]

That MeToo moment was painful to watch.

I'm ashamed to admit I never knew Fosse did Pippin.  It's not my favorite show, but I do have a soft spot for "Corner of the Sky."

This is a very interesting series.  Michelle Williams is indeed killing it. 

[patty1h]

I saw the movie All That Jazz years ago, and have a question. In last nights episode, it showed Fosse as depressed and suicidal. I don't recall this being a major theme in the film ATJ - I remember him being a workaholic womanizer who popped pills, but not anything about suicide; even after he had his heart attack(s), he seemed to spring right back to work. I haven't read any bios on Fosse so I may have missed this aspect of his life. Is this common knowledge (the depression) or is the TV show taking poetic license with the character?

[iMonrey]

I think this episode illustrates why they decided to make this show 50% about Verdon instead of 100% Fosse. He's just too unpleasant a person to spend this much time with. And while I feel sorry for all of the women in his orbit, Verdon had to know what she was getting into. He was already married to someone else when they began their affair, after all. 

And not to put too fine a point on it, as I'm loathe to defend Fosse, but the fact that he wouldn't step in and try to "fix" Gwen's play isn't a fair comparison to the way Gwen was always helping him with his shows. Because those were his shows. The play wasn't Gwen's play, it wouldn't have been appropriate for him to step in and tell the writer and director how to change their work. That's not really comparable to him asking Gwen to put her eyeballs on his own work. She was always asked to do that, he wasn't being asked by the producer or director of her play to do that.

To be fair, though, she did say the director worshiped the ground he walked on so if he had interceded on her behalf he might have accomplished something. I just don't know how much I can ascribe that to his selfishness and self-centeredness.

[alexvillage]

1 hour ago, patty1h said:

I saw the movie All That Jazz years ago, and have a question. In last nights episode, it showed Fosse as depressed and suicidal. I don't recall this being a major theme in the film ATJ - I remember him being a workaholic womanizer who popped pills, but not anything about suicide; even after he had his heart attack(s), he seemed to spring right back to work. I haven't read any bios on Fosse so I may have missed this aspect of his life. Is this common knowledge (the depression) or is the TV show taking poetic license with the character?

Maybe All That Jazz didn't show him as suicidal because he was one of the writers and didn't want to go there? Just a guess, I don't know much about his life or if this series are accurate enough. Being part of the series, I hope Nicole did have a say on how her parents'  story is told. I don't really care if it is 100% accurate on the deeply personal stuff - like suicidal ideation type of stuff. Some things can and should be kept private, I don't think it would change much of what I think is what they want to tell us. I am in for the entertainment, the stories behind how all the movies and musicals tell the couple's trajectory.

[AriAu]

As to Fosse's mental state and his suicidal tendencies (mostly confirmed by Ann Reinking), see the following articles

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/04/bob-fosse-gwen-verdon-oscar-win

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/fosse-verdon-episode-4-ending-explained-1205859

[patty1h]

Thanks for the links, @AriAu.

[mightysparrow]

2 hours ago, patty1h said:

I saw the movie All That Jazz years ago, and have a question. In last nights episode, it showed Fosse as depressed and suicidal. I don't recall this being a major theme in the film ATJ - I remember him being a workaholic womanizer who popped pills, but not anything about suicide; even after he had his heart attack(s), he seemed to spring right back to work. I haven't read any bios on Fosse so I may have missed this aspect of his life. Is this common knowledge (the depression) or is the TV show taking poetic license with the character?

All That Jazz might have been a 'warts and all' autobiography but it was only the NICE warts.  We never saw the full blown sexual harasser we see here.  In ATJ, the Fosse character is always charming and sweet.  After he sleeps with the untalented girl, he doesn't toss her aside.  He works with her for hours to make her a good enough dancer to perform on Broadway. 

Fosse was a very troubled man but we don't see that in ATJ.  I love that film and Roy Schieder is SMOKING HOT but I don't think I really appreciated it until a read a Fosse biography.  I think that's why I still admire Fosse, even after knowing so much about him.  He was so damaged and he was SOOOOOO talented.

[mightysparrow]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I think this episode illustrates why they decided to make this show 50% about Verdon instead of 100% Fosse. He's just too unpleasant a person to spend this much time with. And while I feel sorry for all of the women in his orbit, Verdon had to know what she was getting into. He was already married to someone else when they began their affair, after all. 

And not to put too fine a point on it, as I'm loathe to defend Fosse, but the fact that he wouldn't step in and try to "fix" Gwen's play isn't a fair comparison to the way Gwen was always helping him with his shows. Because those were his shows. The play wasn't Gwen's play, it wouldn't have been appropriate for him to step in and tell the writer and director how to change their work. That's not really comparable to him asking Gwen to put her eyeballs on his own work. She was always asked to do that, he wasn't being asked by the producer or director of her play to do that.

To be fair, though, she did say the director worshiped the ground he walked on so if he had interceded on her behalf he might have accomplished something. I just don't know how much I can ascribe that to his selfishness and self-centeredness.

I think both Gwen AND Bob know that if he had walked into a 'Children Children' rehearsal and offered a few notes, he would have been welcomed with open arms, even though the director was an egotistical asshole.  He had that much clout at that moment.  He just didn't want to be bothered.  But he had no problems asking Gwen to drop by to help out with Pippin, even though she'd just found out that her show was closing on opening night.

To be fair, Fosse probably smelled the stink from that piece of crap the second he picked up the script.  Gwen only took the gig because she was desperate.

Fosse didn't believe that all of the 'magic' came from him and in a lot of ways he was right.  A 'Fosse dancer' dances like Gwen Verdon.  They were a perfect combination.  Anne Reinking might have been Fosse's 'muse' and carries the torch today but she never had the impact on his work that Verdon did.

Edited May 1, 2019 by mightysparrow
To give Fosse a break.

[tennisgurl]

God, the look on fantasy Gwen's face when Bobby was about to jump! That was a face that could take paint off a barn side! The whole Pippin sequence was really fantastic, just a riveting way to look into Bobby's fractured mental state bleeding into his work, and his sense of fulfillment despite his brilliance and accomplishments. 

I felt so bad for the poor blond dancer, that whole scene where she was trying to fend off Bobby's advances was so deeply uncomfortable to watch, especially with everything that has come out about sexual harassment in the entertainment industry in the last few years. Good on her for kicking him away when he wouldn't back off, but its so awful that she actually had to apologize, and then take him up on his offer to get back into his good graces to get a better part. I give this show credit, it isnt afraid to make one of its main characters look really bad, even if it was the truth. Really, whats even more sad is that he was not close to alone in that approach to his dancers and subordinates, or even probably one of the worst.

Also painful? Gwens dying best friend telling her to actually parent her own daughter. That was just brutal and so heartbreaking. Its really interesting to see Aya Cash in such a different role than what I am used to from her, she has a really dignified sort of sweetness to her, especially when she very sincerely told Gwen to make sure to not take her time with Nicole for granted. 

[pasdetrois]

That moment between Joan and Gwen was astounding. It kind of took my breath away. Gwen was stunned at being confronted with her neglect of her daughter. Superb acting by MW.

[mightysparrow]

This clip features the dance sequence from the rehearsal of Pippin.  Ben Vereen is incredible.  And there isn't a body mic in the lot.  I miss the days when performers actually knew how to project.

Edited to add:  I can't get the right clip to embed.  See the comment from @lavenderblue below for the RIGHT clip.

Sorry.

Edited May 2, 2019 by mightysparrow

[kieyra]

For anyone who wants to see more of Aya Cash, she blew it out of the park for five seasons of You're the Worst, an FX dysfunctional rom com that is both hilarious and deadly serious. One of my favorite shows ever. She was a lot of the reason I checked this show out, and I’m sorry her role was so brief.

Oh yeah, and Fosse was a douchebag.

[elle]

10 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Gwen follows up his "I'm in love with her" statement by asking, "With the translator? The German girl?" so I assumed it was someone he was involved with while shooting Cabaret.

I was referring to this promo not the episode itself.  The clip from episode 2 is around 1:14.

[Spartan Girl]

I'll echo everyone calling Bob Fosse a douchebag, but at least at the end of the episode he showed a modicum of empathy when he didn't kill himself when realized he couldn't do that to Nicole.

Neither he or Gwen is doing right by her though.

[marieYOTZ]

Were the lyrics Nicole sang at the end completely made up, or something from Pippin? I don’t know the show, so wasn’t sure. Wish i’d listened more closely, i thought they were interesting. 

[elle]

22 minutes ago, marieYOTZ said:

Were the lyrics Nicole sang at the end completely made up, or something from Pippin? I don’t know the show, so wasn’t sure. Wish i’d listened more closely, i thought they were interesting. 

 The song is from Pippin.  

I thought there were real heart wrenching moments with Nicole in this episode, the above mentioned song and when Joan asks Gwen to take care of Nicole.  The one that made me say "aw" out loud was when Nicole very sadly points out that Bob had not thanked her in his Oscar speech.

[mightysparrow]

42 minutes ago, marieYOTZ said:

Were the lyrics Nicole sang at the end completely made up, or something from Pippin? I don’t know the show, so wasn’t sure. Wish i’d listened more closely, i thought they were interesting. 

Nicole sang 'I Guess I'll Miss the Man' which is from Pippin. 

[ebk57]

5 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

This clip features the dance sequence from the rehearsal of Pippin.  Ben Vereen is incredible.  And there isn't a body mic in the lot.  I miss the days when performers actually knew how to project.

I'm not sure why, but the clip here is 2 versions of Sing, Sing, Sing from (I think) the Tonys of those years.  And for that, I thank you!!!

(Not that I wouldn't enjoy Ben Vereen and Pippin because I absolutely love Pippin, but I believe I've expressed by deep love of Sing, Sing, Sing a few times in this thread already... so yay!)

[Bunnyto4]

I am loving this series. The scene with Gwen and Joan in the hospital was brutal-what a kick in the gut that must have been, to be told to take care of your own child. And the way she told Fosse that Joan was dying-payback for his comments about never having raised a son? Whoa. We all know how to find the painful spots in those we love intensely. Can't wait to see the next episode, even though we know how the story end, the writing and acting are so compelling. 

[JeanneH]

18 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

This clip features the dance sequence from the rehearsal of Pippin.  Ben Vereen is incredible.  And there isn't a body mic in the lot.  I miss the days when performers actually knew how to project.

Is this the correct clip? All I'm seeing is many people singing "Rose's Turn" from Gypsy.

[Scott]

On 4/30/2019 at 7:51 PM, TimWil said:

And Fosse won his Oscar before he won his Tonys for Pippin, not after. Oh well.

This threw me during the show as well, since I also assumed this was the case, given the current award timeline.  But the Vanity Fair article linked earlier made me check--in 1973, the Tonys were March 25, and the Oscars March 27.  That's a lot of hardware over two days.

[lavenderblue]

It looks like a playlist rather than the direct video was embedded which is why everyone's seeing something else. Here's Glory:

[Popples]

I watched that video sooooooooo many times last night, especially just the part with the dancing trio.

[mightysparrow]

2 hours ago, lavenderblue said:

It looks like a playlist rather than the direct video was embedded which is why everyone's seeing something else. Here's Glory:

Thank you for inserting the right clip! Apologies to everyone.   I don't know what happened; 'Glory' appears on my computer.

It's wonderful, isn't it?!?!??

[Quilt Fairy]

I remember that commercial for Pippen where they showed one minute and said "Come to the theater and see the other 119" or whatever.  And I went to see Pippen and realized they showed the only interesting minute in the commercial.  Too avant-garde for me, I guess.  I had no idea what was going on and the music was completely unmemorable.  I went back to check the 1972 Tonys and Pippen did not win for Best Musical.  Except for Ben Vereen its awards were for more technical areas: direction, choreography, scenic design and lighting design.  

I'll also make a confession; I have never liked Fosse's style of choreography, in general I find it too jerky for my taste.  I'm just in this because I like old-style Broadway musicals like Damn Yankees. 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Quilt Fairy

[mightysparrow]

4 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I remember that commercial for Pippen where they showed one minute and said "Come to the theater and see the other 119" or whatever.  And I went to see Pippen and realized they showed the only interesting minute in the commercial.  Too avant-garde for me, I guess.  I had no idea what was going on and the music was completely unmemorable.  I went back to check the 1972 Tonys and Pippen did not win for Best Musical.  Except for Ben Vereen its awards were for more technical areas: direction, choreography, scenic design and lighting design.  

I'll also make a confession; I have never liked Fosse's style of choreography, in general I find it too jerky for my taste.  I'm just in this because I like old-style Broadway musicals like Damn Yankees. 

To be honest, I don't think you're too far off about 'Pippin'.  It's THAT director and THAT cast and THAT moment in time that makes it work.  The book and the music are mediocre at best.  Every few years, someone does a revival of Pippin, hoping to recreate that magic, but 'Pippin' ain't 'Oklahoma'.

What I love about Fosse's choreography is he mixed traditional Broadway dancing with contemporary (at the time) popular dancing.  So you have these dances that look like ANYBODY could do it because the chorus is doing the watusi and frug.  But when you take another look you realize how much discipline and craft goes into his work and how GOOD the dancer has to be to master it.  Lots of dancers can do a time-step but very few dancers can do Fosse.

[Jordan Baker]

3 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I'll also make a confession; I have never liked Fosse's style of choreography, in general I find it too jerky for my taste.  I'm just in this because I like old-style Broadway musicals like Damn Yankees. 

Several pages back, justmehere posted a video from Kiss Me, Kate. Fosse was one of the dancers (well, dancers/singers/actors) featured in the clip. I'm providing another clip here in case you want to see the entire number. The other two pairs do perfectly nice (and enjoyable) dances, but the Fosse number is just amazing. 

As justmehere noted, Fosse choreographed the number with his partner. It is SO different from the others. It just jumps out at you. It was revolutionary. And he was SO young.

This is, in fact, my favorite number from any movie musical. 

Speaking of favorite things . . . I am not familiar with Pippin (except for "Corner of the Sky"), and so some of that fantasy sequence at the end was lost on me. When the cast and Gwen were encouraging Fosse to jump (with the "Bobby" repeated over and over), I thought it was a call-back to Company, which was mentioned very briefly in Episode 1. I'm thinking of "Being Alive" in which Bobby's friends interject "Want something, Bobby" and other encouragements. Anyone else?

Edited May 3, 2019 by Jordan Baker
Spelling matters.

[Quilt Fairy]

1 hour ago, Jordan Baker said:

This is, in fact, my favorite number from any movie musical. 

I'll take the barn raising from 7 Brides for 7 Brothers. 

1 hour ago, Jordan Baker said:

I thought it was a call-back to Company, which was mentioned very briefly in Episode 1.

Except Fosse has no connection to Company.  BTW, was that supposed to be Stephen Sondheim describing the premise in Ep 1?

[kassygreene]

At the end of Pippin, Pippin is supposed to go into a box of fire and die, thus achieving everlasting fame and glory.  But the play goes off-script because he decides to opt for an ordinary life instead.  If Fosse wanted the immolation, then I think the ending they forced on him was much better.

I was in a summer review in 1975 where we did six numbers from Pippin.  Our director loveloveloved the play and was terribly frustrated that it wasn't available.

Researching this I now realize that I've never seen the original, since the versions eventually released for amateur productions were "emasculated" and therefore "cutely naughty" instead of disturbing, and the Canadian production from 1981 with Ben Vereen & William Katt was also cut.  But I do like the music.

Edited May 3, 2019 by kassygreene
spelling!

[Jordan Baker]

1 hour ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I'll take the barn raising from 7 Brides for 7 Brothers. 

Except Fosse has no connection to Company.  BTW, was that supposed to be Stephen Sondheim describing the premise in Ep 1?

No, the character describing the show was Hal Prince, the producer and director of Company. 

I knew that neither Fosse nor Verdon was involved with Company, but something about that dream sequence really did remind me of the spoken parts of "Being Alive." 

BTW, I also like the barn raising number from 7 Brides, but that's about the only thing I like about the musical. I think Monty Python ruined it for me. 😄

[rur]

4 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I remember that commercial for Pippen where they showed one minute and said "Come to the theater and see the other 119" or whatever.  And I went to see Pippen and realized they showed the only interesting minute in the commercial.  Too avant-garde for me, I guess.  I had no idea what was going on and the music was completely unmemorable. 

Thank you. The film of Pippen was the only musical I've ever stopped watching. For whatever reason, I didn't enjoy it. I did enjoy the clip with Ben Vereen, though, because it was interesting to see the things Fosse was asking the dancers to do in rehearsal incorporated into the entire number on stage.

[Popples]

2 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

BTW, was that supposed to be Stephen Sondheim describing the premise in Ep 1?

I thought the same thing. I looked it up and as Jordan Baker said, it's Hal Prince.

56 minutes ago, Jordan Baker said:

BTW, I also like the barn raising number from 7 Brides, but that's about the only thing I like about the musical. I think Monty Python ruined it for me. 😄

🤣

[Quilt Fairy]

1 hour ago, Jordan Baker said:

BTW, I also like the barn raising number from 7 Brides, but that's about the only thing I like about the musical.

I agree, it hasn't aged well. 

25 minutes ago, Popples said:

I think Monty Python ruined it for me.

Because of the "Lumberjack" song?

[ebk57]

1 hour ago, kassygreene said:

At the end of Pippen, Pippen is supposed to into a box of fire and die, thus achieving everlasting fame and glory.  But the play goes off-script because he decides to opt for an ordinary life instead.  If Fosse wanted the immolation, then I think the ending they forced on him was much better.

I was in a summer review in 1975 where we did six numbers from Pippen.  Our director loveloveloved the play and was terribly frustrated that it wasn't available.

Researching this I now realize that I've never seen the original, since the versions eventually released for amateur productions were "emasculated" and therefore "cutely naughty" instead of disturbing, and the Canadian production from 1981 with Ben Vereen & William Katt was also cut.  But I do like the music.

I love Pippin!  I saw it on Broadway, but after the original cast had left.  I saw Michael Rupert at Pippin and Northern J Calloway as Leading Player.  It was marvelous, and I agree, the ending they went with was way better than the ending Fosse seemed to want.  

I also saw the Diane Paulus revival on Broadway a couple years ago.  I cried when John Rubinstein came on stage as Charlemagne and when Priscilla Lopez came on as Berthe, but I think those reactions were more that I just loved them in roles I saw them in as an impressionable youth(ish).  The show, with the circus theme, just didn't work as well for me. 

[Popples]

14 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Because of the "Lumberjack" song?

There was a sketch where they tried to do "7 Brides for 7 Brothers", but they only had two girls and three boys to perform it.

[Jordan Baker]

2 minutes ago, Popples said:

There was a sketch where they tried to do "7 Brides for 7 Brothers", but they only had two girls and three boys to perform it.

I tried to find it on YouTube but no luck.

[mightysparrow]

17 hours ago, Jordan Baker said:

Several pages back, justmehere posted a video from Kiss Me, Kate. Fosse was one of the dancers (well, dancers/singers/actors) featured in the clip. I'm providing another clip here in case you want to see the entire number. The other two pairs do perfectly nice (and enjoyable) dances, but the Fosse number is just amazing. 

As justmehere noted, Fosse choreographed the number with his partner. It is SO different from the others. It just jumps out at you. It was revolutionary. And he was SO young.

This is, in fact, my favorite number from any movie musical. 

Speaking of favorite things . . . I am not familiar with Pippin (except for "Corner of the Sky"), and so some of that fantasy sequence at the end was lost on me. When the cast and Gwen were encouraging Fosse to jump (with the "Bobby" repeated over and over), I thought it was a call-back to Company, which was mentioned very briefly in Episode 1. I'm thinking of "Being Alive" in which Bobby's friends interject "Want something, Bobby" and other encouragements. Anyone else?

Fosse's section of 'From This Moment On' is one of the greatest musical moments in movie history, in my opinion.  It takes a lot to steal attention away from ANNE MILLER and Tommy Rall (who I both love) but Fosse and the divine Carol Haney do it easily.  Credit has to be given to Ms. Haney, (a former Jack Cole dancer who died much too young) who helped Fosse create the dance. 

HOWEVER, 'Seven Brides for Seven Brothers' IS MY JAM!!  Yeah, it's corny and a definitely a product of its time.  But the dancing is sublime and the chemistry between Jane Powell and Howard Keel is lovely.  I could watch it on a loop, for hours.

[Quilt Fairy]

There's probably no other circumstance under which I would be watching "Who's Got the Pain?" from Damn Yankees followed so closely by Kiss Me Kate's "From This Moment On".  And do you know what struck me immediately?  Both have spots where the woman is crawling on the ground or on the ground pulled by her partner.  Back in the day that would not have bothered me; in this day and age I find it unbelievably creepy and demeaning to the woman. 

[justmehere]

That's part of the problem with watching something about another time using current sensibilities. Even the sexual harassment. It wasn't OK then, but attitudes were different. It's incredibly difficult now to watch the entitlement men felt they had, (think: Mad Men), and yet in many cases, any attention from men was considered a good thing for women, even if it didn't always feel right (women's long history of dependence didn't help). I'm not defending the behavior in the least. I'm just saying.

Look even at something like Moonstruck, from the 80s. There's a scene where Cher's character has a makeover. She walks out of the salon and gets whistled at. Today, that's harassment; then, it was a compliment and validation. It used to be romantic to be grabbed and kissed (also in Moonstruck). No one can even casually touch another person now without needing permission, and well-meant compliments are considered condescending. Again, I'm just saying. It seems a little unfair to judge past times beyond recognizing how much things have changed. 

Did Bob Fosse harass women? No doubt. And in that scene he took it way too far. He was also used to acceptance of his advances. Maybe sometimes because women felt they "had to" to advance, but there have also been plenty of women who sought powerful men for that reason as well, thereby feeding the sense of entitlement. 

I'm now wavering some on this show. It might be my expectations. I was hoping for lots of focus on the creative process. This latest episode did have some of that, but in negative context. Overall, it seems to be more about the failings of them both as people. Never "meet" your heroes, I guess. I don't want sugar-coating, but it does seem intent on showing the worst. And -- I don't know. I love Sam Rockwell, but his portrayal doesn't really reflect interviews and other footage of Bob. That's writing/direction as well, of course. Maybe Bob was a really great actor -- I don't deny the possibility of being on good behavior when being watched -- but this presentation seems irredeemable, with no positives at all. Even general tone seems off, based on other material.

What I'm getting from this is: Wow, look at all those awards. Yet he was a complete rat bastard, and there's nothing good to say about him. The awards themselves are the only real evidence of his talent that I'm seeing, and it felt like a disconnect, honestly, from what we've been shown. Gwen and others collaborated and deserve recognition -- but this seems to want to show him as nothing in himself.

I watched that Pippin clip of Glory, and while I already liked his style, that blew me away. Were the significant women in his life so delusional that they would work to support and maintain the legacy of such a complete asshole, regardless of his talent? It makes me wonder what's real. Gwen has her faults too, but they seem less egregious here, somehow. She's the wronged woman, but she was also "wrong" in some things. I know Nicole is involved, but she was a child at the time, and apparently rather neglected. Her experience and perspective are valid. Of course. I'm just wondering about this presentation. MMV.

[Rinaldo]

23 hours ago, Jordan Baker said:

some of that fantasy sequence at the end was lost on me. When the cast and Gwen were encouraging Fosse to jump (with the "Bobby" repeated over and over), I thought it was a call-back to Company

Using the name "Bob" or "Bobby" made for a bit of confusion, but as others have said, it was the finale of Pippin. That finale did go through a lot of changes, as did the show itself, and Schwartz & Hirson were far from happy with some of them (and undid some of them when the play was published). In fact, even after the Broadway production, more than one finale remained in circulation.

I'm late coming to this series, I've just watched these first four episodes in 4 days. I was resistant in advance, I guess, because of the two stars, neither of whom seemed at all right. I'll eat my words about Michelle Williams; she's inhabiting Verdon remarkably. Sam Rockwell is going an honest job, giving it his all, and I don't have an alternative to suggest. Part of the problem is in the flashbacks to the 1950s: the young Bob was the epitome of a cute chorus boy, and it's just not in Rockwell to embody that at this point in his life. (An example is "In Our United State" from Give a Girl a Break, which isn't at all in "his" style:)

But other than such quibbles, I'm really enjoying the series. It's taking much more care about accurate details than such re-creations usually do. The nonlinear structure makes it work especially well for me, and every time I think, "Oh, here's where X should show up," there X is.

And the secondary casting is impeccable. Aya Cash as Joan Simon, Norbert Leo Butz as Paddy Chayevsky, Kelli Barrett as Liza Minnelli (and despite what was speculated a few pages back, that's undoubtedly her voice as opposed to the original Liza -- that's what she was hired for), Byron Jennings as George Abbott, And short appearances by Peter Scolari, Santino Fontana, and more. I hope we see more of Laura Osnes as Shirley MacLaine and Lindsay Nicole Chambers as Leland Palmer (there are other intersections along the timeline, so it's possible).

With 4 episodes to go, I hope we're going to see plenty of the decade-plus they've skipped so far: After Damn Yankees, F&V collaborated on New Girl in Town and Redhead,  and he directed The Conquering Hero (a notorious out-of-town flop) and contributed to How To Succeed and Little Me. And I'm sure I've forgotten other titles.

For those curious to know more about Joan McCracken, The Girl Who Fell Down: A Biography of Joan McCracken is one of the most insightful and best-written of all actor biographies. It looks at her life and career, and makes a persuasive case that, with her combination of ballet training and show-biz savvy, she originated or solidified the category of "dancer-comedienne" in a way that helped open the way for Gwen Verdon.

[Suzn]

Was Bob Fosse a  nice man?  Was his treatment of women acceptable?  No, of course not.  However, I don't hate him as so many seem to. I come at it from a different prospective because I was an adult through much of the period covered and I remember the different attitudes.  Please don't think I am excusing mistreatment of women; I am merely explaining a shift in attitudes and what people considered expected behavior.  Leaving Bob's treatment of the blonde dancer out for a moment - I consider that almost attempted rape, his behavior otherwise was so common that it barely registered as bad.

I would have to write a very long treatise to begin to describe what many women expected, accepted, wanted and even encouraged of treatment by men.  There were more than a few women who considered any attention by men a good thing (unfortunately, I see more than a little of that with some celebrities today).  Plenty of women were flattered by things that many would consider harassment now.

I'm enjoying this show because I am always fascinated with talent and the creative process and I find both Fosse and Verdon interesting.  I love what little dancing they show.

[Suzn]

13 minutes ago, Rinaldo said:

And the secondary casting is impeccable. Aya Cash as Joan Simon, Norbert Leo Butz as Paddy Chayevsky, Kelli Barrett as Liza Minnelli (and despite what was speculated a few pages back, that's undoubtedly her voice as opposed to the original Liza -- that's what she was hired for), Byron Jennings as George Abbott, And short appearances by Peter Scolari, Santino Fontana, and more. I hope we see more of Laura Osnes as Shirley MacLaine and Lindsay Nicole Chambers as Leland Palmer (there are other intersections along the timeline, so it's possible).

I find Kelli Barrett absolutely superb!  I could watch a remake of Cabaret with her.

[atlantaloves]

Yeah, he really makes me sick as a person, but I have to say I am enjoying this series, because I am a broadway gal, and adore Gwen, and I can't believe I didn't think Michelle Williams could pull this off, but she has. I'd give her an Emmy right now. God, I feel so sorry for her forgotten son and her daughter. 

[mightysparrow]

1 hour ago, justmehere said:

That's part of the problem with watching something about another time using current sensibilities. Even the sexual harassment. It wasn't OK then, but attitudes were different. It's incredibly difficult now to watch the entitlement men felt they had, (think: Mad Men), and yet in many cases, any attention from men was considered a good thing for women, even if it didn't always feel right (women's long history of dependence didn't help). I'm not defending the behavior in the least. I'm just saying.

Look even at something like Moonstruck, from the 80s. There's a scene where Cher's character has a makeover. She walks out of the salon and gets whistled at. Today, that's harassment; then, it was a compliment and validation. It used to be romantic to be grabbed and kissed (also in Moonstruck). No one can even casually touch another person now without needing permission, and well-meant compliments are considered condescending. Again, I'm just saying. It seems a little unfair to judge past times beyond recognizing how much things have changed. 

Did Bob Fosse harass women? No doubt. And in that scene he took it way too far. He was also used to acceptance of his advances. Maybe sometimes because women felt they "had to" to advance, but there have also been plenty of women who sought powerful men for that reason as well, thereby feeding the sense of entitlement. 

I'm now wavering some on this show. It might be my expectations. I was hoping for lots of focus on the creative process. This latest episode did have some of that, but in negative context. Overall, it seems to be more about the failings of them both as people. Never "meet" your heroes, I guess. I don't want sugar-coating, but it does seem intent on showing the worst. And -- I don't know. I love Sam Rockwell, but his portrayal doesn't really reflect interviews and other footage of Bob. That's writing/direction as well, of course. Maybe Bob was a really great actor -- I don't deny the possibility of being on good behavior when being watched -- but this presentation seems irredeemable, with no positives at all. Even general tone seems off, based on other material.

What I'm getting from this is: Wow, look at all those awards. Yet he was a complete rat bastard, and there's nothing good to say about him. The awards themselves are the only real evidence of his talent that I'm seeing, and it felt like a disconnect, honestly, from what we've been shown. Gwen and others collaborated and deserve recognition -- but this seems to want to show him as nothing in himself.

I watched that Pippin clip of Glory, and while I already liked his style, that blew me away. Were the significant women in his life so delusional that they would work to support and maintain the legacy of such a complete asshole, regardless of his talent? It makes me wonder what's real. Gwen has her faults too, but they seem less egregious here, somehow. She's the wronged woman, but she was also "wrong" in some things. I know Nicole is involved, but she was a child at the time, and apparently rather neglected. Her experience and perspective are valid. Of course. I'm just wondering about this presentation. MMV.

Good comment.

I don't think that this is supposed to be an examination of Bob Fosse the choreographer or Gwen Verdon the dancer.  If they were going to do that they probably would have hired actors who could dance.  I think this is about who they were as people, what drove them to do what they did and the consequences.

Time and place is crucial to this story.  Bob and Gwen are products of the time they lived in and it could only have happened in New York where so many different disciplines interact. 

Watching this show, there are times that I really dislike Bob Fosse but I HATE the times that he lived in even more.  I hate that there was a time when a man could act like that and it wouldn't even raise an eyebrow.  But I also think we're kidding ourselves if we think that we've progressed that much.  Thanks to the hard work of feminists and their allies, there are laws on the books to protect women from the kind of predatory behaviour we see in this show but how often are these laws put to use?  We use the term #MeToo but how many people really know what the #MeToo movement is all about? 

I've read Fosse's biography so I knew a lot of what's happening here.  But I'm loving this series because I get to see a bunch of really great actors do their thing, playing people that I really admire, even though they could be pretty awful at times. 

[Quilt Fairy]

2 hours ago, justmehere said:

That's part of the problem with watching something about another time using current sensibilities. Even the sexual harassment. It wasn't OK then, but attitudes were different. It's incredibly difficult now to watch the entitlement men felt they had, (think: Mad Men), and yet in many cases, any attention from men was considered a good thing for women, even if it didn't always feel right (women's long history of dependence didn't help). I'm not defending the behavior in the least. I'm just saying.

ITA.  I was a child/young teenager when these shows came out, and although I didn't start working until the '70s it was still going on. I tried watching Mad Men once, and the treatment of the women triggered something in me so quickly that I changed the channel immediately.  It's possibly one of the few trigger events I've ever had in my life although nothing extreme ever happened to me personally, just the daily institutional prejudice that all woman dealt with. 

But reviewing those dances with a modern perspective I see a sub-textual context of casual misogyny that is not as obvious as the sexual harassment.  Perhaps I'm overthinking it. 

[justmehere]

9 hours ago, Suzn said:

Was Bob Fosse a  nice man?  Was his treatment of women acceptable?  No, of course not.  However, I don't hate him as so many seem to. I come at it from a different prospective because I was an adult through much of the period covered and I remember the different attitudes.  Please don't think I am excusing mistreatment of women; I am merely explaining a shift in attitudes and what people considered expected behavior.  Leaving Bob's treatment of the blonde dancer out for a moment - I consider that almost attempted rape, his behavior otherwise was so common that it barely registered as bad.

I would have to write a very long treatise to begin to describe what many women expected, accepted, wanted and even encouraged of treatment by men.  There were more than a few women who considered any attention by men a good thing (unfortunately, I see more than a little of that with some celebrities today).  Plenty of women were flattered by things that many would consider harassment now.

You said this much better than I did. Exactly what I was trying to describe.