Endeavour - General Discussion

[Daff]

3 hours ago, 12catcrazy said:

backstory: his father drove a cab and left him and his mother for another woman who very obviously resented him. 

His mother died of cancer. His father didn’t really leave her, per se, he found solace where he could during the process, and apparently couldn’t handle sticking it out to the end-left young Morse to deal with the final days. Morse could never forgive him. 

[Daff]

6 minutes ago, 12catcrazy said:

Was there a significance in how the step mother just wrote her new address on the note and addressed it as "Morse" ?  I've never seen the original "Morse" series so I wonder if I am missing out on some of what they are now showing us.   

Just pointing out that the relationship was strained from the beginning-step parent calling the step child by his last name (her last name, too, but he never wanted to be called “Endeavor”. 

[magdalene]

3 hours ago, gingerella said:

Question: I'm only just now funding Endeavor. Is it best to watch Endeavor from the beginning all the way through, and then watch Morse? Or Visa versa? Or doesn't it matter?

I would watch Endeavour from the beginning because of the character development throughout. I have personally never watched a full Morse episode that I can recall and it hasn't stopped me from enjoying this show.

[WatchrTina]

3 hours ago, Constant Viewer said:

I enjoy Endeavor and Lewis, but can't really get into Morse for some reason. 

I, too, struggled with the "Inspector Morse" series at first.  I had very much enjoyed "Lewis" as part of the Masterpiece Mystery series (here in the USA) and so when I learned that "Lewis" was actually a sequel to a venerable British show that was available via streaming, I went looking for it.  But the difference between the two shows is significant and the original Morse can feel really clunky when you compare it to the slick detective shows of the past decade.  Everything from the production values (no high-def imagery, old-style aspect ratio) to the occasions of casual sexism can make the original series feel really dated.  But I girded my loins and stuck with it and I'm glad I did.  I ultimately enjoyed the ride through the original series and I think my appreciation of "old" Morse added to my later enjoyment of young Endeavour.

[dargosmydaddy]

51 minutes ago, Alistaire said:

I had no idea censorship went this far in the U.S. and have never encountered a "bleep" on any other Masterpiece show.

They bleep (or, rather, cut the audio on words) frequently... the most recent I can think of was the Masterpiece showing of the British adaptation of Before We Die, which seemed rife with f-bombs. It's ridiculous, but it's becoming more and more apparent that we live in a ridiculous country...

[Zella]

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

Question: I'm only just now funding Endeavor. Is it best to watch Endeavor from the beginning all the way through, and then watch Morse? Or Visa versa? Or doesn't it matter?

I'm another one who didn't particularly care for the Morse series but has really enjoyed Endeavour on its own merits. I don't think you need to watch one to view the other. There are certainly Easter Eggs for Morse viewers that I've read about but never anything that I found particularly confusing or cryptic without being familiar with the original. I have come up with some theories about how this one ends based on what is canon with the original, so you may want to steer clear of too much discussion of the original show if potential spoilers are not your thing. 

[Driad]

An advantage of watching Endeavour first is that if you would like to discuss it, it's easy to find other people who have watched it recently.

[tootsie]

This is such a good forum - I tried others but come back here because you people know what you're talking about! Thank you. That said:

I'll join what looks like a minority when I admit that I liked Morse in the Dexter books and even more in the original PBS series. I enjoyed the character a great deal exactly as he was: curmudgeon, raconteur, choir member, opera fan, patronizing, vaguely kind,  somewhat lazy, impatient, streaks of brilliance, self-absorbed, crossword un-puzzler, fan of beautiful women. All of him. One of my favorite characters ever. So imperfect. My grief after watching The Remorseful Day was as sharp and real as it would be for the loss of a good friend. I enjoyed Inspector Lewis well enough but started Endeavour only because of its connection to Morse. I enjoy seeing shadows of Morse around the edges of Endeavour, and looking at the 60s/70s from the different time perspectives of filming the two series is interesting, too. I'm of an age that I can do the same. Living through and looking back. How things can change between those two views.

O, wasn't my man Bright just the BEST in episode 2?! Did we know he painted? I don't recall it. I know some of you may find him patronizing to women, but I just find him so kind and so courtly, and I love that. His interactions with the model gave me a sudden pang of longing for Trewlove. I always enjoyed their interactions. 

For me, this was a better puzzle than episode 1, even if I have to agree that changing the clocks' hands pushed it over the credibility edge for me. Not that I care. My willing suspension of disbelief switch automatically flips to on as soon as the Endeavour intro music starts to play.

Thanks to all for your observations. 

[dargosmydaddy]

5 hours ago, Alistaire said:

I imagine one of the two words started with a "F," but as for the other, I'm stumped.

I looked up the transcript... apparently it was "shitehawk" and "shit heap." (I figured out the latter while watching, but was clueless on the former.)

1 hour ago, tootsie said:

O, wasn't my man Bright just the BEST in episode 2?! Did we know he painted? I don't recall it. I know some of you may find him patronizing to women, but I just find him so kind and so courtly, and I love that.

I'm normally not the biggest Bright fan, but I thought he was adorable this episode.

As was Strange.

Edited June 28, 2022 by dargosmydaddy

[Daff]

5 hours ago, tootsie said:

I'll join what looks like a minority when I admit that I liked Morse in the Dexter books and even more in the original PBS series. I enjoyed the character a great deal exactly as he was: curmudgeon, raconteur, choir member, opera fan, patronizing, vaguely kind,  somewhat lazy, impatient, streaks of brilliance, self-absorbed, crossword un-puzzler, fan of beautiful women. All of him. One of my favorite characters ever. So imperfect.

I think this is right on point. What an apt description! The series made a kind of “noir” splash seemingly because up till then, detective heroes were all white hats. (And filming/sound are definitely of the times.) Both book and series were a bit of a slog, being somewhat heady and verbose. There were bits of humor to lighten the mood, but often required some research (at the library-no internet then) to get the joke. Every episode somehow left you feeling sad for Morse’s woes (but not too much as the woes were often of his own doing). 

[Daff]

This episode was full of little gems. They even managed to throw in a couple “signs of the times”, referencing the reforms happening in Catholic rules and procedures. The priest’s hesitation when the communicant held out his hands to receive the host told us he was not necessarily a fan of the changes. 

[M. Darcy]

14 hours ago, Alistaire said:

just wondering if any U.S. viewer was shocked that PBS "bleeped" two words in the scene between Fred and the scary London cop.

They also blurred a naked bum.   

[JudyObscure]

10 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

I looked up the transcript... apparently it was "shitehawk" and "shit heap." (I figured out the latter while watching, but was clueless on the former.)

Thank you for looking that up. I would have been disappointed if Thursday said the f-word even among thugs.  My own fedora wearing father never ever said it even when he thought he was alone. He once smacked my grown brother for saying it in front of my mother.  For some reason that generation thought it was The Worst.

I think Thursday, like my father, would have believed that sort of language was "a bad habit we don't want to start."  Kind of the way a slovenly appearance reflects a slovenly mind.

I loved this episode popping up right after some of us admitted we were in love with all four men. 

Bright was just wonderful and I liked how the model, who had been associating with the worst sort of men, recognized his decency and was drawn to it.

Thursday faced down the London creeps and had kind words for all the young women who get caught up in the sleaze trade.

Strange's dream date with Joan was the sweetest romance.  It was a good thing Joan's roommate was there to help, they might still be standing there beaming at each other.

Endeavor has about hit rock bottom and now we understand a little more about his background and why he is so sad most of the time.  Finding out Strange and Joan are an item might be some sort of turning point for him.  

[gingerella]

On 6/27/2022 at 8:51 AM, M. Darcy said:

There is a British mystery series where the heroine is named Thursday Next 

Jasper Fforde writes the Thursday Next series of books and they're a wonderful read! I've longed for them to be made into a TV series but I don't think they suit that, more like a film series what with all the special effects that would be needed to bring the books to life.

Thanks for the advice re: Endeavor vs. Morse, though now I'm more confused with mentions of Lewis, what's that?! After this season is over I'll go back to the beginning of Endeavor, hopefully it's all available on PBS streaming.

[Popples]

1 minute ago, gingerella said:

Thanks for the advice re: Endeavor vs. Morse, though now I'm more confused with mentions of Lewis, what's that?! After this season is over I'll go back to the beginning of Endeavor, hopefully it's all available on PBS streaming.

Robbie Lewis is Morse's sergeant in the original Morse show (and book). After Inspector Morse went off, he became the Detective Inspector in his own show, Lewis. That's how I got into the Morse-verse and really enjoyed it, but I love Endeavour so much more.

[gingerella]

8 minutes ago, Popples said:

Robbie Lewis is Morse's sergeant in the original Morse show (and book). After Inspector Morse went off, he became the Detective Inspector in his own show, Lewis. That's how I got into the Morse-verse and really enjoyed it, but I love Endeavour so much more.

Ah thanks for that brief synopsis. I just looked up Lewis and saw that Laurence Fox was in it so I won't be watching, I loathe that asshole. But I will happily watch Endeavor, and then perhaps give Morse a go. The actors and their respective characters have already pulled me in with Endeavor, so well done, so quietly understated. I can see why you all love this series.

[Popples]

1 minute ago, gingerella said:

Ah thanks for that brief synopsis. I just looked up Lewis and saw that Laurence Fox was in it so I won't be watching, I loathe that asshole.

I don't blame you, knowing all about him now really tainted my last watch through of the show.

[sugarbaker design]

8 minutes ago, gingerella said:

and then perhaps give Morse a go

Please give it a try.  It's really quite a special show.

[partofme]

47 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Ah thanks for that brief synopsis. I just looked up Lewis and saw that Laurence Fox was in it so I won't be watching, I loathe that asshole.

I loathe him too, but Lewis is worth watching for Robbie Lewis who I just love more than anything, and the slow burn Lewis/Hobson love story.   For me Hathaway's character was always just there, I guess I was lucky the first time I saw the show in 2020 I knew nothing about Fox, now I hate him, but he's not the reason I watch so I can mostly ignore him.

I'm not a huge fan of Inspector Morse, I found the Morse character to be a sexist elitist jerk and hated the way he was always hitting on women half his age.  Lewis was the only saving grace on that show for me.

Edited June 28, 2022 by partofme

[Rickster]

The biggest problem in watching the Morse series will be adjusting to how much he’s going to age in the 10-15 (?) years from the end of Endeavor.

[deirdra]

I loved Inspector Morse when it first came out, probably because I loved John Thaw's acting and he reminded me a lot of my mentor. Having lived through those times, sexism was the norm.  At first Endeavour seemed incongruous, but it grew on me quickly and I went back and watched all of the Inspector Morse episodes to help me deal with withdrawal in between seasons of Endeavour. There are so many little tid-bits of information to catch that I cannot do anything else while watching these shows. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by deirdra

[graybrown bird]

As jaw-droppingly awful as Morse's stepmother was in this episode, she also made me laugh. Poor Morse hauling bag after bag into the house from her cab -- then she casually said something like "the rest will come later."  But I thought that mountain of luggage she brought also might serve as a visual summary of all the baggage Morse hauls around from his dreadful childhood and youth.

[deirdra]

5 minutes ago, graybrown bird said:

But I thought that mountain of luggage she brought also might serve as a visual summary of all the baggage Morse hauls around from his dreadful childhood and youth.

When Endeavour came to town in Season 1, he only had two pieces of luggage (the rest of the baggage was in his head).

[Daff]

17 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Endeavor has about hit rock bottom and now we understand a little more about his background and why he is so sad most of the time.  Finding out Strange and Joan are an item might be some sort of turning point for him.  

You might be right, but he’s bound to make a meal of mourning and regret first. As dark as it was, I always felt the character’s sadness came from a sort of universal disappointment-women, co-workers, superiors, family. His respites from this being his singing, opera, crosswords, art, and beer. I get the impression that the older Morse learned to contain his propensity to over- indulge by sticking to ales and bitters. 

[Daff]

14 hours ago, gingerella said:

Ah thanks for that brief synopsis. I just looked up Lewis and saw that Laurence Fox was in it so I won't be watching, I loathe that asshole. But I will happily watch Endeavor, and then perhaps give Morse a go. The actors and their respective characters have already pulled me in with Endeavor, so well done, so quietly understated. I can see why you all love this series.

Maybe if you saw Thaw in other, less troubled roles first? He’s made some sweet movies, and played a more balanced character in “Kavanaugh, QC” (on Prime, now). 

[cinsays]

On 6/27/2022 at 2:38 PM, Constant Viewer said:

I don't think it matters. I enjoy Endeavor and Lewis, but can't really get into Morse for some reason. 

same here, i find Morse totally unappealing as a person and don't enjoy the show

[Daff]

20 hours ago, Popples said:

Robbie Lewis is Morse's sergeant in the original Morse show (and book). After Inspector Morse went off, he became the Detective Inspector in his own show, Lewis. That's how I got into the Morse-verse and really enjoyed it, but I love Endeavour so much more.

Actually, the more interesting fact is that Lewis was the only sergeant who stuck. He was the last! The running joke through the series was every sergeant fled after a short time with him. Two included Neil Dudgeon and Daniel Casey (both VERY young) and who both ended up in Midsomer!

[M. Darcy]

Masterpiece Theatre article on all the Inspector Morse books.  If you aren't sure about watching the original series, I really love the books.

Heh, I took an Morse walking tour of Oxford once and I think I startled the tour guide in that I had also read all the books.  Cool thing - she actually was a neighbor of Colin Dexter. 

[JudyObscure]

5 hours ago, Daff said:

Two included Neil Dudgeon and Daniel Casey (both VERY young) and who both ended up in Midsomer!

That's funny!  Even though I loved a lot of things about  "Midsomer Murders,"  I quit after a few seasons,  because I hated the way Barnaby ridiculed his sergeants.  Also the way he and his daughter snickered at Mrs.  Barnaby behind her back. He was starting to seem like a bully to me.  (I haven't watched Morse, so maybe he's even worse.)

[EtheltoTillie]

I would like to compliment Shaun Evans's acting this episode.  There was one scene where he was just so drunk (at the bar), and he was downing a glass of Scotch, and he was kind of slurring his words and moving his jaw in that inebriated way, and he played it so realistically.  Also, he just looked so troubled. 

[Daff]

16 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

That's funny!  Even though I loved a lot of things about  "Midsomer Murders,"  I quit after a few seasons,  because I hated the way Barnaby ridiculed his sergeants.  Also the way he and his daughter snickered at Mrs.  Barnaby behind her back. He was starting to seem like a bully to me.  (I haven't watched Morse, so maybe he's even worse.)

I can see that, and get how it would begin to irritate. Somehow I never saw MM as a “real” murder mystery venue as the murders seemed so outlandish (and even the music seemed to mock). Saw it more as farce or satire, and found the consistent theme of nothing edible ever being produced in Joyce’s kitchen very funny. 
Morse, on the other hand, was an “equal opportunity” chastiser (everything, everyone). 

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

Very realistic and sad portrayal of a person who's obviously trying to deaden the sting of deep loss rather it be love, death of a loved one,loss of job,overwhelmed with bills stacking up ,hopelessness.... We've all seen this look at some time or other in bars or clubs. 

[deirdra]

On 6/29/2022 at 2:18 AM, Daff said:

Maybe if you saw Thaw in other, less troubled roles first? He’s made some sweet movies, and played a more balanced character in “Kavanaugh, QC” (on Prime, now). 

then there's "The Sweeney" (1974-1978)

[deirdra]

14 hours ago, Daff said:

Somehow I never saw MM as a “real” murder mystery venue as the murders seemed so outlandish (and even the music seemed to mock). 

I mainly watch for the scenery and FF through all the pointless scenes with Mrs. Barnaby.

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

On 6/29/2022 at 9:25 PM, EtheltoTillie said:

I would like to compliment Shaun Evans's acting this episode.  There was one scene where he was just so drunk (at the bar), and he was downing a glass of Scotch, and he was kind of slurring his words and moving his jaw in that inebriated way, and he played it so realistically.  Also, he just looked so troubled. 

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

29 minutes ago, One4Sorrow2TooBad said:

On 6/29/2022 at 9:25 PM, EtheltoTillie said:

I would like to compliment Shaun Evans's acting this episode.  There was one scene where he was just so drunk (at the bar), and he was downing a glass of Scotch, and he was kind of slurring his words and moving his jaw in that inebriated way, and he played it so realistically.  Also, he just looked so troubled. 

Edited July 1, 2022 by One4Sorrow2TooBad
was trying to add etheltotellie post with my post further up.

[Daff]

On 6/30/2022 at 9:47 PM, deirdra said:

then there's "The Sweeney" (1974-1978)

I tried, but just couldn’t. I did wonder what obnoxious, male-centric, American detective shows were airing at that time, but not enough to search. 

[MagicEyes]

On 6/29/2022 at 10:25 PM, EtheltoTillie said:

I would like to compliment Shaun Evans's acting this episode.  There was one scene where he was just so drunk (at the bar), and he was downing a glass of Scotch, and he was kind of slurring his words and moving his jaw in that inebriated way, and he played it so realistically.  Also, he just looked so troubled.

His acting skills are really impressive. I have no control over my facial expressions, so I admire his ability to do a lot of acting just with his face. 🙂

[dargosmydaddy]

On 6/28/2022 at 5:39 AM, Alistaire said:

Have to admit, the most suspense in wonderful episode Two came, for me, from wondering who was going to tell Morse about the happy couple. Jim? No. Fred? N...o. Win? Wait for it-- But no.

Meant to comment on this previously... do we think Fred and Win know?

[dargosmydaddy]

1 hour ago, Alistaire said:

and how many times does Joan go out in the evenings in a strapless evening gown and fancy shawl?

I thought she wasn't living at home anymore? Hence the roommate who opened the door? Or am I just confused?

I agree, if she's living at home, her parents would definitely know.

[LennieBriscoe]

On 6/24/2022 at 4:00 PM, Zella said:

It's the same book, so you are correct on both counts! It was eventually retitled. 

"And Then There Were None" is the modern title. Before the "Indians" one was the original "N-word" title. AC was not PC!

[Zella]

1 minute ago, LennieBriscoe said:

"And Then There Were None" is the modern title. Before the "Indians" one was the original "N-word" title. AC was not PC!

Yes I know.

[sugarbaker design]

3 hours ago, Alistaire said:

w😬

I just want good old-fashioned soap opera for the rest of the season. No murders, no opera. Just SOAP opera and love triangles and no booze. :)

Endeavour without murder, opera and booze?  Blasphemy!

[JudyObscure]

It's my bet Fred and Win don't know. Not just because Joan is living in a rooming house now, as Dargosmydaddy said, but also because she's always been  secretive.  Even her housemate didn't know where she was heading in that dress or who the guy with the hired car was.

I want to see Thursday's reaction when he finds out.  For all his criticism toward Endeavor, that's his shining boy and he loves him.

Fred's mentioned his son more this season than usual.  Wonder what's going to happen there?

[Suzn]

8 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

It's my bet Fred and Win don't know. Not just because Joan is living in a rooming house now, as Dargosmydaddy said, but also because she's always been  secretive.  Even her housemate didn't know where she was heading in that dress or who the guy with the hired car was.

I want to see Thursday's reaction when he finds out.  For all his criticism toward Endeavor, that's his shining boy and he loves him.

Fred's mentioned his son more this season than usual.  Wonder what's going to happen there?

I agree that it is still a secret.  Win may have noticed  something when Strange stopped by, but may not realize there is more to it.

[sugarbaker design]

That was one wacky episode!  Insane asylums, killer harlequins, snow storms and huge plot holes.  All craziness aside there were some highlights.  I did thoroughly enjoy the Queen Mum remark addressed to Marion Bailey, who of course played the QM in The Crown.  The emotional highlight however came when Win ripped into Joan.  If I were there I would've high-fived her.  This scene made this episode watchable.  I have to commend Russell Davis on Joan's character arc.  Joan used to be a cruel bitch with questionable morals and now she's a cruel bitch with questionable morals who knows everything!  Way to go!

[Driad]

"The Rocking-Horse Winner" is a short story by D. H. Lawrence.

In the last scene, out in the snow, Thursday says something like "A Thaw is coming."  Yes, he is.

Bright wears his hair longer than most of the other men. Was this the style when he was younger?

[magdalene]

24 minutes ago, Driad said:

Bright wears his hair longer than most of the other men. Was this the style when he was younger?

Probably this may have more to do with the actor, Anton Lesser, maybe having another job around the same time this season was filmed?  I have seen him in lots of things over the years and I know he has a role in the upcoming Star Wars Andor series.

[magdalene]

2 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

The emotional highlight however came when Win ripped into Joan.  If I were there I would've high-fived her.  This scene made this episode watchable.  I have to commend Russell Davis on Joan's character arc.  Joan used to be a cruel bitch with questionable morals and now she's a cruel bitch with questionable morals who knows everything! 

I don't see it that way.  All I saw was nobody can hurt you like family, nobody will resent you like family, and that's especially true between mothers and daughters sometimes.  I know I am in the minority here but I don't see Joan as a wicked witch who hurt her parents on purpose (sometimes as a young person you have to have distance from family while you are finding yourself and working through things) and who ruined Morse's life - he is an adult, whatever troubles he is having - a lot of it is his family history and the job, and him being a thwarted romantic who has slowly turned into a cynic.

For all the trouble the Thursdays are having - there clearly is love between them.  I am confused about Sam, have we ever met Sam? Did I forget something? Why should I care about Sam all of a sudden?

Not a favorite episode of mine. For one thing there was a harlequin in it. I hate clowns, mimes and harlequins. They all give me the heebie jeevies.

Was this season filmed during the pandemic? It has felt limited in scope and this last episode especially has felt like a bottle episode.

[sugarbaker design]

7 hours ago, magdalene said:

 I know I am in the minority here but I don't see Joan as a wicked witch who hurt her parents on purpose 

On that we disagree.

7 hours ago, magdalene said:

 (sometimes as a young person you have to have distance from family while you are finding yourself and working through things) 

You're making it sound like Joan went off to university and forgot to write her parents a letter, when in fact she left home to be a married man's side piece, never calling her parents.

7 hours ago, magdalene said:

 and who ruined Morse's life 

I never considered Morse's life ruined.  Was he a curmudgeonly cynic with a drinking problem?  Absolutely, but that's not all he was.  He was a brilliant detective. He also brought a sense of justice to the families and friends of multiple murder victims. He was a colleague to Strange, Max and Lewis. He had passions like opera, The Archers and crossword puzzles.  An unconventional life, for sure, but definitely a life worth lived.