S04.E07: Down the Rabbit Hole

[WInterfalls]

2 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

Can't remember which character said it in the book (IIRC in the show Murtagh says it), but Leghair will still be an immature girl (not a woman) even when she's 50.

It was Old Alec the head groom at Castle Leoch that said it in the book, but yes I thought just the same thing once she started spewing her nonsense about Jamie sending Claire away because he didn't want kids. 

I can totally accept the rage filled I hate your mother stuff. BUT the underhanded your father never wanted you stuff was just such a vindictive, mean-spirited thing to do. 

[Pickleinthemiddle]

On 12/16/2018 at 1:31 AM, Cloudberryjam said:

Why is Brianna at Balriggan? Didnt she just go straight to Lallybroch? 

I thought in the book she passed through Balriggan, because someone saw her and thought it was Jamie.

[rwlevin]

16 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

People stay bitter over breakups for YEARS- never mind that Jaime was the guy she always wanted, finally got, and it ended horribly.

But in the book she has a boyfriend. She doesn't care about Jamie at this point, all she wants is his money (which is pretty much why she won't marry her boyfriend) They've pretty much broken up by the time Claire shows up. She just doesn't want Jamie to get back together with Claire. IE. she doesn't love Jamie, she hates Claire.

 

As for, Brianna, you don't need to find a tall redhead. You just need to find a tall actress and dye her hair red. How hard is that? How come the people at Game of Thrones can find the perfect actors for the book roles? I just think the actress is completely and utterly miscast and the casting directors could have spent more time on finding the right person to play Brianna. They just didn't.

[WatchrTina]

On 12/17/2018 at 6:34 PM, Cdh20 said:

I think Laoghaire should downsize instead of whining about alimony, or get another husband! 

Weel, in fairness Laoghaire's had three husbands and at least one of them was abusive.  Worst of all, when she finally landed the one she wanted, the one she lusted after as a lass, it was a tragic failure.  So I can understand her not being too keen to tie herself to yet another man.  

But, who are we kidding?  She remains unmarried because it means Jamie has to continue to pay her alimony.  She'll not wed again if it means his life would get easier.  (In the books she starts shacking up with the hired hand but won't marry him for that exact reason.  Joan, who grows up devout and ends up going to France to become a nun, is the one who finally negotiates an end to THAT situation.) 

Edited December 19, 2018 by WatchrTina

[CalamityBoPeep]

On 12/17/2018 at 8:05 AM, Haleth said:

I noticed that too, but wouldn't Bree have made the sandwiches in Scotland?  Were JIF and Welch's PB&J available in Scotland?

 

Actually, peanut butter itself wasn't available in Scotland at the time of Bree's passage (nor Claire's in 1968), so Claire having the sandwiches is an anachronism on Diana's part too. Unless of course, Claire packed her sandwiches in Boston and kept them throughout the flight (I can't remember (been a while since I read the book)... did she do that?), and managed to keep them in reasonable condition over the day or so that she might have taken to get to the stones.

I mean, are we supposed to assume she basically landed in Britain then took a taxi directly to the stones? It's a 9 or 10 hour drive from London to Inverness. Did she sleep first? I seriously doubt there were direct flights from Boston to Inverness at the time. (There aren't now, anyway, and I have a hard time thinking Inverness was a bigger destination in the 60's and early 70's than it is now). Bree and Claire probably had to connect in London, at least.

So those sandwiches would probably not just be in that "nicely squished" condition that long after making them. They'd be more like a sodden mess, well soaking the wax paper, and basically just kind of nasty. But I always did love that bit with Claire eating her sandwiches so I employed a bit of hand-wavium, smiled, and moved on.

Edited to add: To clarify, (see below), peanut butter was not technically unavailable. Just uncommon. And you'd have to go to a lot of effort to find any American brands, if they were imported. My bad. <grin>

Edited December 19, 2018 by CalamityBoPeep
Poor presentation of hearsay.

[ruby24]

I feel like the guy who plays Bonnet might be overacting a bit with all the physical gestures. Is it just me or does anyone else see that?

[Noneofyourbusiness]

15 hours ago, AEMom said:

It's been a long time since I read the book, but in the book, Brianna is very tall and imposing. If memory serves, Jenny is VERY suspicious and doesn't believe Brianna until she pulls out the pearls from Jenny and Jamie's mother that Claire left with her.

Jenny believes it from the start in the book because Brianna is almost the spitting image of her own and Jamie's mother, Ellen, whom Jamie takes after. Jenny demonstrates by showing Brianna a self-portrait Ellen painted (which is also, Brianna realizes, where she got her artistic talent from).

[Cdh20]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

Weel, in fairness Laoghaire's had three husbands and at least one of them was abusive.  Worst of all, when she finally landed the one she wanted, the one she lusted after as a lass, it was a tragic failure.  So I can understand her not being to keen to tie herself to yet another man.  

But, who are we kidding?  She remains unmarried because it means Jamie has to continue to pay her alimony.  She'll not wed again if it means his life would get easier.  (In the books she starts shacking up with hired hand but won't marry him for that exact reason.  Joan, who grows up devout and ends up going to France to become a nun, is the onie who finally negotiates an end to THAT situation.) 

 

Thank goodness for that! Claire was living in a shed for awhile there, so it’s not like Jamie & Claire are living the high life, & not sending her money.

I am one of those people that feels sorry for Laoghaire but she is still crazy, trying to tell Bri that Jamie didn’t want a baby- please- no one wanted a kid more than that man!

Edited December 18, 2018 by Cdh20

[tennisgurl]

What is it with the stones dumping time travelers right in the path of the nearest lunatic they can find? First Claire finds the serial rapist who looks just like her husband, then Bree finds her fathers ex wife with the worst crazy eyes in Scotland, and Roger finds himself on a ship with 17th century Two-Face! Do the stones just get bored sitting around, and have a really dark sense of humor? 

So Laoghaire is back, and having her around as a kind of parallel to Frank is interesting, and I think it worked decently well. I think that they do an interesting job at setting the differences in them up, and the good and bad sides of them. Of course, Laoghaire has a much more noticeable dark side. While she is kind to her children, and to this random stranger she meets, she also tried to get an innocent woman killed, and was apparently alright with doing the same thing to Bree, a woman who did nothing at all to her, and was nothing but nice to her and her family. Frank is always a complicated character, and it was nice to see him again. He really did love Bree so much, even after he and Claire's relationship imploded. 

I get why they wanted to get past Bree hanging out with her Scottish family, and I was happy she at least got to see Ian the Elder, but I wanted to see more of Bree connecting with her family, and more time back in Scotland. I love traveling the world with Jaime and Claire, but I miss Scotland! I did like what we got though, and I liked seeing some of Bree dealing with being in the past. Especially when she started singing 60s hippie songs!

Roger has a good episode, really jumping into his love for Bree ( I mean, he went into the past for her!) and showing a lot of grit and compassion in the past. Its going to be a rough going for poor Roger, but the actors are doing a great job, and they did a good job at getting across the horrors on board the ship he ends up on. I mean, holy shit, seeing Bonnet just tossing the poor little girl out the window without a second thought,and just smirking when her mother jumped after her to their deaths, was just brutal. I can actually understand it from a pragmatic stance (small pox is a recipe for disaster on a cramped ship like that) but at that point, it seems more merciful to just mercy kill the victims instead of just tossing them away to drown, if killing people really is the only option. 

Its already weird seeing Roger and Bree in the old time story, I am so used to them in the 60s. 

[fresiaa]

5 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I feel like the guy who plays Bonnet might be overacting a bit with all the physical gestures. Is it just me or does anyone else see that?

I did not notice, but I heard a reviewer say his manners are much alike Black Jack Randall.

 

 

@Atlanta "but Leghair will still be an immature girl (not a woman) even when she's 50. "

I love Joanie. She is a pre-version of what she will be in the book: wise, goodhearted, and a mother to her mother. She ain't afraid of Scary Lairy. 

Some children are just insightfull and mature from birth, (like my youngest daughter, such a sweetie). I'm starting to wonder if at some point they will include Joanies story (novella).

So I thought it was totally in character for Little Joanie to take her stepsister to Lallybroch.

[GHScorpiosRule]

It tells you how much I detest Hosebeast and the lack of Jamie and Claire that I've yet to watch this. Maybe this weekend, I'll watch it and the next, which BETTER have Jamie and Claire. I don't care. But I watch this show for THEM. Of course we'd see Frank/Menzies again, if only in flashbacks, to expand on how Brianna was taught to survive, because that was in the buiks.

This isn't a documentary, nor is it a show based on something realistic, like say, medical dramas or cop shows, so I don't need an explanation as to WHY Claire can time travel; why Brianna and Roger can, but Jamie can't. The simple answer is because that's how Diana Gabaldon wrote it.

So, to those that watched early on demand: what did Matt and Maril have to say about the lack of Laura/Jenny to explain the lack of an onscreen reunion?

Edited December 18, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[AheadofStraight]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

It tells you how much I detest Hosebeast and the lack of Jamie and Claire that I've yet to watch this. Maybe this weekend, I'll watch it and the next, which BETTER have Jamie and Claire. I don't care. But I watch this show for THEM. Of course we'd see Frank/Menzies again, if only in flashbacks, to expand on how Brianna was taught to survive, because that was in the buiks.

This isn't a documentary, nor is it a show based on something realistic, like say, medical dramas or cop shows, so I don't need an explanation as to WHY Claire can time travel; why Brianna and Roger can, but Jamie can't. The simple answer is because that's how Diana Gabaldon wrote it.

So, to those that watched early on demand: what did Matt and Maris have to say about the lack of Laura/Jenny to explain the lack of an onscreen reunion?

I don't remember if I read it or watched it but they said they originally did plan more time at Lallybroch but then changed it due to Laura's unavailability. I was more annoyed at their gushing about how the audience demands more Frank because? No. No, I don't. They shouldn't be catering to some vocal people on twitter or instagram who say they want more Frank. Their job isn't fan service. OK, found the tweet I was thinking about from Maril. "In original discussions about this episode we had more of a story at Lallybroch with Bree and Jenny but Laura Donnelly wasn't able to be in the episode and we had to shift the story. We just didn't feel we could play the same type of story without her."

For those discussing Roger's beard, on twitter Maril said, "On the advise [sic] of our hair/makeup team we had Roger shave as we've been told that beards were very unusual in the 1700s unless you were a mountain man like John Quincy Myers."

[GHScorpiosRule]

22 minutes ago, AheadofStraight said:

I was more annoyed at their gushing about how the audience demands more Frank because? No. No, I don't.

UGH. I blame Ron for this. I hate this more sympathetic depiction of a non entity of a character who was an asshole, into some long-suffering, benevolent husband who only wanted to love his wife that he thought he lost and was faithful to during their marriage and after Claire returned.

[Atlanta]

In the book Leghair also demands Brianna's pearls when she produces them to prove to her that she's Jamie and Claire's daughter. Leghair will always be an immature teenager.

[toolazy]

16 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

I think Laoghaire should downsize instead of whining about alimony, or get another husband! 

In true Jon Gary Steele fashion, the set for her house was WAY nicer than it should have been.  

[toolazy]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

UGH. I blame Ron for this. I hate this more sympathetic depiction of a non entity of a character who was an asshole, into some long-suffering, benevolent husband who only wanted to love his wife that he thought he lost and was faithful to during their marriage and after Claire returned.

Where has Frank been depicted as faithful to Claire?  I think the show has done a good job of depicting him as a bit of an asshole.  

I didn't mind him showing up in this episode because it was about his relationship with Bree.  Drums of Autumn is a book about fathers and fatherhood so it makes sense that the show would want to show us how Bree was with Frank because the rest of the season will reveal how she is with Jamie.  

[theschnauzers]

Quote

I don't remember if I read it or watched it but they said they originally did plan more time at Lallybroch but then changed it due to Laura's unavailability. I was more annoyed at their gushing about how the audience demands more Frank because? No. No, I don't. They shouldn't be catering to some vocal people on twitter or instagram who say they want more Frank. Their job isn't fan service. OK, found the tweet I was thinking about from Maril. "In original discussions about this episode we had more of a story at Lallybroch with Bree and Jenny but Laura Donnelly wasn't able to be in the episode and we had to shift the story. We just didn't feel we could play the same type of story without her."

I’ve read that Laura Donnelly was in the midst of doing a play on Broadway, and no solution was found for her to have time to film the Lollybroch scenes. The fact that they had to do a rewrite of that part of the episode bears that out. 

[taanja]

15 hours ago, CalamityBoPeep said:

Actually, peanut butter itself wasn't available in Scotland at all at the time of Bree's passage (nor Claire's in 1968), so Claire having the sandwiches is an anachronism on Diana's part too. Unless of course, Claire packed her sandwiches in Boston and kept them throughout the flight (I can't remember (been a while since I read the book)... did she do that?), and managed to keep them in reasonable condition over the day or so that she might have taken to get to the stones.

If she flew over to London-- why not bring a jar of peanut butter and jelly with her?

[Cdh20]

My husband will explain that all men are afraid of Jamie Fraser-that if we (their wives) meet him, we are gone! That is why any men running this show sympathize with Frank! But we women don't care about Frank, we all want Jamie! Making Frank look good has in no way diminished Jamie for us! 

And did Frank just not have time to tell Claire she was going to die in a fire in 17whatever? Did he die accidentally first ? He had time to ask Claire for a divorce!

[taanja]

25 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

My husband will explain that all men are afraid of Jamie Fraser-that if we (their wives) meet him, we are gone! That is why any men running this show sympathize with Frank! But we women don't care about Frank, we all want Jamie! Making Frank look good has in no way diminished Jamie for us! 

And did Frank just not have time to tell Claire she was going to die in a fire in 17whatever? Did he die accidentally first ? He had time to ask Claire for a divorce!

*raises hand*

Please don't speak for all women.  Jaime has never been "all that" to me. 

Frank is a good and decent man trying to make the best of an impossible situation. I think the show (and especially the actor) did/does a great job of showing the complex and multifaceted aspect of Frank Randall. He is not a saint nor is he evil. He is just a man trying to do his best. And he raised another man's child and loved that child unconditionally. << That says a lot about his character.

[Cdh20]

2 minutes ago, taanja said:

*raises hand*

Please don't speak for all women.  Jaime has never been "all that" to me. 

Frank is a good and decent man trying to make the best of an impossible situation. I think the show (and especially the actor) did/does a great job of showing the complex and multifaceted aspect of Frank Randall. He is not a saint nor is he evil. He is just a man trying to do his best. And he raised another man's child and loved that child unconditionally. << That says a lot about his character.

Ok, not speaking for all women, just the ones I know( a dozen girl friends & a daughter), LOL!

I'm glad Frank loved Bri, but my heart still breaks that Jamie didn't get to raise his kids!

[Petunia846]

On 12/17/2018 at 9:38 AM, nodorothyparker said:

The question I'm pondering considering Bree's great walkabout is how did she not realize Inverness is a port city?  We're supposed to think the stones are close enough to it to be a short cab or car trip away and she's been to both several times.  Yet there she is trekking across greater Scotland on foot toward some port she has circled on a map much farther south, which is also what she tells Laoghaire.  I think we're to think Roger came out the other side of the stones and immediately headed straight back to Inverness where he met up with Stephen Bonnet while looking for passage.  At least that's how book Roger did it.

Yes, I realize the walk is the great walk of contrivance so she can accidentally "bump into" Laoghaire because otherwise in the very pared down version of visiting Lallybroch we got, which apparently never even occurred to show Bree to try, there's no real reason for Bree's and Laoghaire's paths to cross at all.

That's so true. Why could't they have her walking toward Lallybroch and fall, and get stuck at Laoghaire's before she got there. We know they're close to each other.

 

On 12/17/2018 at 2:18 PM, Nidratime said:

Makes sense since River Run is an established plantation/estate that many people will know while Jamie and Claire's cabin is down by the creek, overlooking the mountains, near where the Indian's ghost hangs out.

"cabin down by the creek, overlooking the mountains, near where the Indian's ghost hangs out." - I cackled at that! Ha!

[snowbryneich]

20 hours ago, CalamityBoPeep said:

Actually, peanut butter itself wasn't available in Scotland at all at the time of Bree's passage (nor Claire's in 1968), so Claire having the sandwiches is an anachronism on Diana's part too. Unless of course, Claire packed her sandwiches in Boston and kept them throughout the flight (I can't remember (been a while since I read the book)... did she do that?), and managed to keep them in reasonable condition over the day or so that she might have taken to get to the stones.

I mean, are we supposed to assume she basically landed in Britain then took a taxi directly to the stones? It's a 9 or 10 hour drive from London to Inverness. Did she sleep first? I seriously doubt there were direct flights from Boston to Inverness at the time. (There aren't now, anyway, and I have a hard time thinking Inverness was a bigger destination in the 60's and early 70's than it is now). Bree and Claire probably had to connect in London, at least.

So those sandwiches would probably not just be in that "nicely squished" condition that long after making them. They'd be more like a sodden mess, well soaking the wax paper, and basically just kind of nasty. But I always did love that bit with Claire eating her sandwiches so I employed a bit of hand-wavium, smiled, and moved on.

Sun pat - the main brand of peanut butter in the UK today was introduced in 1946 so it would have been available in Scotland in 1968/when Brianna travelled :) Though we still don't have grape flavoured jam so they'd have to make do with blackcurrant. 

[Pingaponga]

I read the book in August, and somehow entirely missed the fact that Bonnet was the captain of the ship Roger was on.  How did I manage to miss that?? I find the actor playing Bonnet distracting though, because I think he's kind of hot and in my mind, Bonnet definitely was not attractive at all.

I am SO happy that when Brianna discovers she's eating pigeon and not chicken she pauses her eating for a moment, as it kind of bothers me in the books that everyone who time travels is all hunky dory with eating squirrel stew.  Having to eat animals that we don't eat now, while necessary, would elicit some sort of reaction at least initially.  I could probably get used to eating squirrel stew or pigeon...but it would take a while.

[domina89]

It's unfortunate that Brianna didn't know about the other sets of stones scattered around the world.  She would have saved herself two trips across the Atlantic!  

I have always been meh about Frank but I actually loved the last scene with ghost Frank handing Brianna off to Jamie.  I suspect that is the last time we as an audience will see him.  Hats off to Tobias Menzies for giving life to two such unique and complicated characters.  It couldn't have been pleasant getting into the mind of Blackjack Randall.

[ruby24]

I also pictured Bonnet as nasty and gross. I think the book does describe him as somewhat good-looking, but I could never imagine that, especially after that rape scene describes "Leroy" as unwashed and disgusting.

[WatchrTina]

I'll join the crowd in saying I enjoyed seeing Frank again and I actually liked what they did -- showing us a moment that was NOT in the books -- the aftermath of Frank's realization that Claire WILL eventually go back to Jamie and then she will die in a fire with him (or so Frank thinks.)  My recollection is that in the book Frank does come to realize that Jamie is real and -- more importantly -- that he survived Culloden.  But I don't think he finds evidence that Claire goes back to him nor that she "dies" with him.  Roger and Brianna each find that news story but I don't recall any evidence that BookFrank saw it.  I like that TV!Frank saw it -- I liked seeing his reaction.  But if I think about it too hard I go to a dark place.  Frank actually finds out that Claire is going to die in a fire and he chooses not to warn her.  He can't.  If he tells her, that would reveal that Jamie survived Culloden and he might actually end up causing Claire to go back through the stones, to Jamie, and to her death by fire.  Poor Frank!  No wonder he got drunk.

Edited December 19, 2018 by WatchrTina

[toolazy]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

I'll join the crowd in saying I enjoyed seeing Frank again and I actually liked what they did -- showing us a moment that was NOT in the books -- the aftermath of Frank's realization that Claire WILL eventually go back to Jamie and they she will die in a fire with him (or so Frank thinks.)  My recollection is that in the book Frank does come to realize that Jamie is real and -- more importantly -- that he survived Culloden.  But I don't think he finds evidence that Claire goes back to him nor that she "dies" with him.  Roger and Brianna each find that news story but I don't recall any evidence that BookFrank saw it.  I like that TV!Frank saw it -- I liked seeing his reaction.  But if I think about it too hard I go to a dark place.  Frank actually finds out that Claire is going to die in a fire and he chooses not to warn her.  He can't.  If he tells her, that would reveal that Jamie survived Culloden and he might actually end up causing Claire to go back through the stones, to Jamie, and to her death by fire.  Poor Frank!  No wonder he got drunk.

This is true, so far DG hasn't shown us that Frank found out about Claire going back or finding the obit.  However, when people are bitching about Frank wanting to take Bree over to England that we don't yet know why he wants to do that so badly.  The implication is that there are things going on with Frank that have yet to be revealed to the reader and that explain his dickish behavior the night he died. 

[FnkyChkn34]

2 hours ago, Pingaponga said:

I read the book in August, and somehow entirely missed the fact that Bonnet was the captain of the ship Roger was on.  How did I manage to miss that??

I didn't remember this either!  I think I was so bored with Brianna and Roger's story in the books that I skimmed over it. I only like showRoger because the actor is so good. 

[lianau]

3 hours ago, Pingaponga said:

I am SO happy that when Brianna discovers she's eating pigeon and not chicken she pauses her eating for a moment, as it kind of bothers me in the books that everyone who time travels is all hunky dory with eating squirrel stew.  Having to eat animals that we don't eat now, while necessary, would elicit some sort of reaction at least initially.  I could probably get used to eating squirrel stew or pigeon...but it would take a while.

One of my favourite childhood foods was stomach soup . I just loved chicken stomachs .

[Cdh20]

5 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I'll join the crowd in saying I enjoyed seeing Frank again and I actually liked what they did -- showing us a moment that was NOT in the books -- the aftermath of Frank's realization that Claire WILL eventually go back to Jamie and then she will die in a fire with him (or so Frank thinks.)  My recollection is that in the book Frank does come to realize that Jamie is real and -- more importantly -- that he survived Culloden.  But I don't think he finds evidence that Claire goes back to him nor that she "dies" with him.  Roger and Brianna each find that news story but I don't recall any evidence that BookFrank saw it.  I like that TV!Frank saw it -- I liked seeing his reaction.  But if I think about it too hard I go to a dark place.  Frank actually finds out that Claire is going to die in a fire and he chooses not to warn her.  He can't.  If he tells her, that would reveal that Jamie survived Culloden and he might actually end up causing Claire to go back through the stones, to Jamie, and to her death by fire.  Poor Frank!  No wonder he got drunk.

Thank you as you sort of answered my question about why Frank wouldn’t tell Claire about the newsclipping, because it would reveal that Jamie was alive, & might give her the idea to go back, why didn’t I think of that? The one part of her bargain with Frank was to not research Jamie & she had been true to that weirdly- I am not sure I could have been !

[Scarlett45]

6 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

Thank you as you sort of answered my question about why Frank wouldn’t tell Claire about the newsclipping, because it would reveal that Jamie was alive, & might give her the idea to go back, why didn’t I think of that? The one part of her bargain with Frank was to not research Jamie & she had been true to that weirdly- I am not sure I could have been !

I think she’s been true to that because she really believed he died. So many did after Culloden, and if he HADNT well that would be too much to bear-realizing it after Briana was an adult and Frank was in the grave is one thing, realizing that when Briana was a little kid and Frank was her primary caregiver would’ve been another. 

10 hours ago, toolazy said:

This is true, so far DG hasn't shown us that Frank found out about Claire going back or finding the obit.  However, when people are bitching about Frank wanting to take Bree over to England that we don't yet know why he wants to do that so badly.  The implication is that there are things going on with Frank that have yet to be revealed to the reader and that explain his dickish behavior the night he died. 

I don’t know why people would be so perplexed by Frank wanting to move to England or take Briana. He’s ENGLISH! Yes he’s lived in the states almost 20yrs but he came for a job, not because he hated his country of birth. Not odd to me that he would want to go home or have his only child in the world go with him-never mind that people with book knowledge are aware he’s concerned about Briana spending too much time with men that aren’t white and he doesn’t want her in an interracial relationship/ sex with black men. 

[areca]

16 hours ago, theschnauzers said:

I’ve read that Laura Donnelly was in the midst of doing a play on Broadway, and no solution was found for her to have time to film the Lollybroch scenes. The fact that they had to do a rewrite of that part of the episode bears that out. 

This has always rung hollow to me.  Her second would have been THRILLED to have a few days front and center.

 

Quote

Please don't speak for all women.  Jaime has never been "all that" to me.

THANK YOU.  I'm with you.  Jamie is definitely not all that.

Edited December 19, 2018 by areca

[Ziggy]

On 12/17/2018 at 11:06 PM, Cdh20 said:

I am one of those people that feels sorry for Laoghaire but she is still crazy, trying to tell Bri that Jamie didn’t want a baby- please- no one wanted a kid more than that man!

 

It was a bit ridiculous that Laoghaire said that not long after telling Bree that she had fond memories of she and Jamie reading Bible stories to the girls. I’m honestly surprised Bree even considered believing her.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Ziggy

[toolazy]

4 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think she’s been true to that because she really believed he died. So many did after Culloden, and if he HADNT well that would be too much to bear-realizing it after Briana was an adult and Frank was in the grave is one thing, realizing that when Briana was a little kid and Frank was her primary caregiver would’ve been another. 

I don’t know why people would be so perplexed by Frank wanting to move to England or take Briana. He’s ENGLISH! Yes he’s lived in the states almost 20yrs but he came for a job, not because he hated his country of birth. Not odd to me that he would want to go home or have his only child in the world go with him-never mind that people with book knowledge are aware he’s concerned about Briana spending too much time with men that aren’t white and he doesn’t want her in an interracial relationship/ sex with black men. 

But what's so urgent? Why couldn't he wait a few months for her to finish high school?  The whole thing was just bizarre.  And as I said, DG has indicated that there is probably more going on.  

4 hours ago, areca said:

This has always rung hollow to me.  Her second would have been THRILLED to have a few days front and center.

 

The play is important to her - I think she's one of the writers or producers or something.  And even if not, I'm sure there's a contract and that contract might not allow her to flit off back to Europe.  

[Scarlett45]

@toolazy you probably know more than me, but I didn’t get the sense that it was that urgent, he intended for her to start the new school year there, not fly out in a week.

 

He and Claire would need to figure out the divorce and all of the financial things that went with that. It was my impression that he wanted her to agree to come along, not that they were moving right then. Of course they might have made a couple of trips before the move to look at homes and things- Brianna may not have had a passport yet and all that. 

[Ziggy]

5 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don’t know why people would be so perplexed by Frank wanting to move to England or take Briana. He’s ENGLISH! Yes he’s lived in the states almost 20yrs but he came for a job, not because he hated his country of birth. Not odd to me that he would want to go home or have his only child in the world go with him-never mind that people with book knowledge are aware he’s concerned about Briana spending too much time with men that aren’t white and he doesn’t want her in an interracial relationship/ sex with black men. 

Do you think people are confused?  I hadn't noticed that.  I do think many are saying, "How dare he!" because Brianna is not his biological daughter, and she is Caire's biological daughter.

Based solely on the Frank scenes from this episode, assuming the scenes in his office took place just before he told Claire he was leaving and the scene in his car was just after that conversation (whew), I would imagine Frank was responding mostly with emotion and not with logic and reason.  Then again (the more you learn, the less you know), we still don't know exactly what Frank knows.

We know from future books (Moby?) that he knows about the prophecy.  There's also evidence to suggest he was preparing Bree to live in the past.  (Is there proof of that?  Seems like some posts have stated that as a fact and not just a likelihood.)

I'm just saying, more than anything else, this episode left me with, "What the heck else does Frank know!?!"

47 minutes ago, toolazy said:

But what's so urgent? Why couldn't he wait a few months for her to finish high school?  The whole thing was just bizarre.  And as I said, DG has indicated that there is probably more going on. 

Good question!  I had just thought it was because he was so upset and just wanted to cause Claire pain, but now I'm really wondering ... What else does Frank know?

[CalamityBoPeep]

17 hours ago, snowbryneich said:

Sun pat - the main brand of peanut butter in the UK today was introduced in 1946 so it would have been available in Scotland in 1968/when Brianna travelled :) Though we still don't have grape flavoured jam so they'd have to make do with blackcurrant. 

Yes, after posting, I verified with my mother (born in 1945 in Scotland). She said peanut butter was something the "toffs" might have, but "regular folk" almost never. Her father was the gardener for an earl, and the earl's daughter introduced my mother to peanut butter and cucumber sandwiches. The whole PB&J thing stuck out to me because I grew up hearing my mother commenting on how strange it was. She made it for our school lunches, of course, but she found it odd at first. We were American kids, though... so we had our PB&J.

My folks went back to live in Scotland for a while in the 90's-2000's, to take care of my grandfather, and my mother introduced my cousin (who's now in her 40's) to PB&J for the first time. Having acquired a fondness over the years here for slightly squished PB&J sandwiches, my mother bought American brands of peanut butter and jelly at an import store while they lived there. My cousin now adores PB&J sandwiches.

As for the book vs show... Claire still had to have some pretty impressive packing skills if she managed to get a loaf of Wonder Bread across the pond without squishing it. But eh... like I said before, I like the feeling of that tidbit in the books so I don't mind.

[Cdh20]

5 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think she’s been true to that because she really believed he died. So many did after Culloden, and if he HADNT well that would be too much to bear-realizing it after Briana was an adult and Frank was in the grave is one thing, realizing that when Briana was a little kid and Frank was her primary caregiver would’ve been another. 

I assume she doesn't know Bri is a time traveller until she shows up, so you' re right Claire wouldn't have gone back until she was grown anyway!

Edited December 19, 2018 by Cdh20

[Scarlett45]

26 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

Do you think people are confused?  I hadn't noticed that.  I do think many are saying, "How dare he!" because Brianna is not his biological daughter, and she is Caire's biological daughter.

There’s that, and also the thought that 1. The USA is the best thing ever, and 2. Briana is a possession- rather than a now adult daughter who can choose to go to college where she wants. Frank could never “take her away” from Claire, and I don’t blame him (as a parent) for wanting his only child to live in the same country as him (nor do I blame Claire for wanting the same thing)

 

16 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

I assume she doesn't know Bri is a time traveller until she shows up, so you' re right Claire wouldn't have gone back until she was grown anyway!

Even in an alternate reality where Claire knew Jaime was alive and Brianna is a time traveler, she wouldn’t ask her minor child to travel back in time 200yrs (nor could Brianna make such a life altering decision) and it wouldn’t have been fair or right to Frank to do such a thing. (Never mind Brianna is his child too, but if they were presumed dead and he was accused of their murder?!!!)

I do think Claire TRIED to move on emotionally from Jaime but that didn’t happen, we are supposed to believe that’s due to their epic love. My stance is Jaime is very hot but I cannot think of any scenario that would make me give up indoor plumbing, modern medicine and legal personhood for love. Making the best of things when she fell through the stones the first time (on accident) was one thing, giving up her life, her child, and the 20th century on chance  to be with Jaime (what if he had been married to a woman he really loved and  didn’t want to leave).....

I don’t get it. 

[Cdh20]

10 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

There’s that, and also the thought that 1. The USA is the best thing ever, and 2. Briana is a possession- rather than a now adult daughter who can choose to go to college where she wants. Frank could never “take her away” from Claire, and I don’t blame him (as a parent) for wanting his only child to live in the same country as him (nor do I blame Claire for wanting the same thing)

 

Even in an alternate reality where Claire knew Jaime was alive and Brianna is a time traveler, she wouldn’t ask her minor child to travel back in time 200yrs (nor could Brianna make such a life altering decision) and it wouldn’t have been fair or right to Frank to do such a thing. (Never mind Brianna is his child too, but if they were presumed dead and he was accused of their murder?!!!)

I do think Claire TRIED to move on emotionally from Jaime but that didn’t happen, we are supposed to believe that’s due to their epic love. My stance is Jaime is very hot but I cannot think of any scenario that would make me give up indoor plumbing, modern medicine and legal personhood for love. Making the best of things when she fell through the stones the first time (on accident) was one thing, giving up her life, her child, and the 20th century on chance  to be with Jaime (what if he had been married to a woman he really loved and  didn’t want to leave).....

I don’t get it. 

Scarlett45 you and Taanja should talk, she doesn't think Jamie is better than indoor plumbing either!

I've said this before I don't think Claire knew how much she loved Jamie & his time & family until she was back!

How could anyone decide between a 20 yr old daughter, & a great husband?? I wouldn't want to! I have both!

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 2:19 PM, taanja said:

*raises hand*

Please don't speak for all women.  Jaime has never been "all that" to me. 

Frank is a good and decent man trying to make the best of an impossible situation. I think the show (and especially the actor) did/does a great job of showing the complex and multifaceted aspect of Frank Randall. He is not a saint nor is he evil. He is just a man trying to do his best. And he raised another man's child and loved that child unconditionally. << That says a lot about his character.

I will be sure to tell my husband that some women like Frank! or is just that they don't  love Jamie?

Edited December 20, 2018 by Cdh20
added a thought

[Scarlett45]

10 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

Scarlett45 you are Taanja should talk, she doesn't think Jamie is better than indoor plumbing either!

How could anyone decide between a 20 yr old daughter, & a great husband?? I wouldn't want to! I have both!

I am childfree, but I know my own mother could never leave me and go back in the past for an epic love. I’m her favorite person in the world (granted she doesn’t have a husband or anything like that).

I do not think Claire is an awful mother for leaving Brianna, she is an adult now and DID specifically tell her it was alright, but most mothers I know wouldn’t have made that choice. 

 

For the record I like Frank. He was an excellent co-parent and partner, the sexual compatibility had to be there because she was eager to marry him before the war. I like Jaime too. I understand why Claire fell in love with him.

 If both were in the 20th century Jaime would win, but they aren’t. 

[toolazy]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

@toolazy you probably know more than me, but I didn’t get the sense that it was that urgent, he intended for her to start the new school year there, not fly out in a week.

 

He and Claire would need to figure out the divorce and all of the financial things that went with that. It was my impression that he wanted her to agree to come along, not that they were moving right then. Of course they might have made a couple of trips before the move to look at homes and things- Brianna may not have had a passport yet and all that. 

Sorry. Maybe I wasn't clear but I was talking about the book.  In the book, he wants to leave right away and take Brianna in the middle of her senior year of high school.  It's one of the objections that Claire raises - that she wouldn't want to leave her friends and all. 

[Cdh20]

19 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I am childfree, but I know my own mother could never leave me and go back in the past for an epic love. I’m her favorite person in the world (granted she doesn’t have a husband or anything like that).

I do not think Claire is an awful mother for leaving Brianna, she is an adult now and DID specifically tell her it was alright, but most mothers I know wouldn’t have made that choice. 

 

For the record I like Frank. He was an excellent co-parent and partner, the sexual compatibility had to be there because she was eager to marry him before the war. I like Jaime too. I understand why Claire fell in love with him.

 If both were in the 20th century Jaime would win, but they aren’t. 

I think because Claire grew up without a mother, & in the time she was born, it was more usual for people to leave home, immigrate, & never see family again! In today's world of technology & travel we cannot imagine that we wouldn't talk to our mother/child anytime we want! I am my mom's only daughter, & she isn't happy that I moved a thousand km from her!

For the record I don't mind that they expanded Frank from the books, I think it was interesting!

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, toolazy said:

Sorry. Maybe I wasn't clear but I was talking about the book.  In the book, he wants to leave right away and take Brianna in the middle of her senior year of high school.  It's one of the objections that Claire raises - that she wouldn't want to leave her friends and all. 

OH I see. I was speaking about the show. Thanks. 

[taanja]

21 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

.  Poor Frank!  No wonder he got drunk.

He got drunk because of unrequited love. He loved someone who did not love him back. And that someone presented him another man's child. And that someone was never going to love him and was going to leave him no matter what he did. I would drink too.

[taanja]

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I do think Claire TRIED to move on emotionally from Jaime but that didn’t happen, we are supposed to believe that’s due to their epic love. My stance is Jaime is very hot but I cannot think of any scenario that would make me give up indoor plumbing, modern medicine and legal personhood for love. Making the best of things when she fell through the stones the first time (on accident) was one thing, giving up her life, her child, and the 20th century on chance  to be with Jaime (what if he had been married to a woman he really loved and  didn’t want to leave).....

I don’t get it. 

Are we twins? because I have been preaching this to anyone who will listen!

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, taanja said:

Are we twins? because I have been preaching this to anyone who will listen!

I think Jaime (Sam) is a very attractive man. I like him better as a red head (love red heads!) and his muscles are very nice- I would hit that! But....no modern medicine, indoor plumbing and legal personhood matter more to me than a hot guy. Hot guys exist in modern times and would smell better cause we have better soap!

 

Also as a black woman, going back to the 18th century American colonies and possibly being sold into slavery NAH (even as a Caucasian woman, if you’re married you’re the property of your husband). Of course Jaime would never treat Claire like property, but what if he gets sick and dies in a year or two. No just no. At least she’s menopausal (or peri menopausal) and doesn’t have to worry about pregnancy.....

[taanja]

12 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think Jaime (Sam) is a very attractive man. I like him better as a red head (love red heads!) and his muscles are very nice- I would hit that! But....no modern medicine, indoor plumbing and legal personhood matter more to me than a hot guy. Hot guys exist in modern times and would smell better cause we have better soap!

 

Also as a black woman, going back to the 18th century American colonies and possibly being sold into slavery NAH (even as a Caucasian woman, if you’re married you’re the property of your husband). Of course Jaime would never treat Claire like property, but what if he gets sick and dies in a year or two. No just no. At least she’s menopausal (or peri menopausal) and doesn’t have to worry about pregnancy.....

We ARE twins! I am mixed race and that is a big factor for me as well. Plus INDOOR PLUMBING! << That is kind of nonnegotiable!

[Cdh20]

Taanja & Scarlett45 -glad you found each other!!!