Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[Jeebus Cripes]

11 hours ago, festivus said:

I'm glad they didn't go with this honestly. Tony's death was already heart-wrenching and I liked the funeral scene better.

I agree. Not sure why but there is something off-putting to me about it. It's too extra or something. Just focusing on those who knew him best catches me in the feels more. 

[Danny Franks]

6 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

I agree. Not sure why but there is something off-putting to me about it. It's too extra or something. Just focusing on those who knew him best catches me in the feels more. 

It's definitely too much. Clint kneeling is fine - he looks exhausted and devastated by Tony's death. Everyone else following his example, one by one, is just way too heavy-handed and overwrought.

Cutting this scene is a prime example of 'less is more', and I'm glad the filmmakers realised it.

[SimoneS]

It was a good decision to cut that scene. It really is too much. I might have kept in Pepper crying, but that it is all. 

The music though... Endgame's score ranks right up there with my favorite Marvel scores, Black Panther and Winter Soldier.

Edited July 28, 2019 by SimoneS

[festivus]

2 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Cutting this scene is a prime example of 'less is more', and I'm glad the filmmakers realised it.

That's what I was thinking.  You had Peter so frantic and then Pepper being so calm with Tony and only breaking down once he was gone. It was so moving that way, that I do feel like this cut scene would have ruined that. I don't even want to watch it again because it just feels wrong.

[Raja]

49 minutes ago, festivus said:

That's what I was thinking.  You had Peter so frantic and then Pepper being so calm with Tony and only breaking down once he was gone. It was so moving that way, that I do feel like this cut scene would have ruined that. I don't even want to watch it again because it just feels wrong.

With Nebula following the example, not having a home beyond Thanos  I was then expecting to see the Asgardian and Wakandan armies add salutes native to their cultural heritage. And Steve Rogers seemed a bit slow to offer his honors. As it was the deleted scene really didn't add much besides the Nebula story 

Edited July 28, 2019 by Raja

[blueray]

On 7/27/2019 at 1:08 PM, VCRTracking said:

Quite a deleted scene:

I think if this had been in the movie I would have bawled my eyes out watching it. Seeing it now months later, it just seems a bit much, and I like Tony. I thought the lake funeral is definitely more fitting. At least we have confirmation on Gamora.

I'm kind of glad that they left this out. I honestly feel like it was to much having them all bow down to him. It reminded me of the ending of LoTR's more then a MCU movie. I think cutting to his funeral was a much better tribute and made sense for a way for team to say goodbye to the character and as a viewer. 

That being said I was glad to get an unexpected answer regarding Gemora. So the 2014 one is still there (I thought she may have got snapped by Tony). I guess it make sense as she switch sides during the battle.

[rmontro]

18 hours ago, blueray said:

I'm kind of glad that they left this out. I honestly feel like it was to much having them all bow down to him.

Well, they kind of all owe their jobs to him, since Downey's Iron Man was the one that lit the torch for the MCU.  Even if it wasn't technically the first movie.  But yeah, I agree, it's too much.

Agree with the poster before who said it was a nice touch for Pepper to break down afterwards, after staying strong for him in the moment.

[Bruinsfan]

I wish they'd also had the "no, it'd be too much" instinct about that scene where all the heroines stopped to gather and pose before giving Carol their unneeded help. Just use that screentime to show them each being awesome in their individual fights at various points throughout the final battle instead.

[Crs97]

The kneeling for a fallen comrade was a lovely moment IMO, but if that was in lieu of the funeral then I am glad they cut it. 

They hinted at Pepper’s breakdown before fading to black.  At least we got to see the beginning of that.  I noticed Pepper got a mention in Spider-Man so I am curious if she’ll be back (I think Gwyneth said she’s done, but you never know) or ever be mentioned again in later movies as an active member behind the scenes.

[swanpride]

A lot of people love the female team up moment.

Also, Carol saying "hi Peter Parker" might still be my favourite moment of the whole battle. It made me smile.

[Bruinsfan]

That moment was certainly up there for me as well, though Mjolnir flying back into Cap's hand was possibly my favorite moment of any MCU movie.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

I wish they'd also had the "no, it'd be too much" instinct about that scene where all the heroines stopped to gather and pose before giving Carol their unneeded help. Just use that screentime to show them each being awesome in their individual fights at various points throughout the final battle instead.

I’ve gone back and forth on that moment multiple times. Then when I heard that someone posted a version of Endgame that edited out all the “feminist” and “gay” moments I decided that I love that scene. Yeah it felt heavy handed but sometimes I feel those moments are necessary. 

[swanpride]

I was first also on the "on the nose" side, but then I rethought my position and realised that I shouldn't even notice that there are only females on screen. I mean, there are all male scenes through the whole battle, having a line-up in which there happens to be only females shouldn't be any special. That it still is means that we need more of this, not less. Until we don't notice anymore.

[Jeebus Cripes]

2 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

That moment was certainly up there for me as well, though Mjolnir flying back into Cap's hand was possibly my favorite moment of any MCU movie.

Cap wielding Mjolnir was everything. EVERYTHING. 

[Danny Franks]

11 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

I wish they'd also had the "no, it'd be too much" instinct about that scene where all the heroines stopped to gather and pose before giving Carol their unneeded help. Just use that screentime to show them each being awesome in their individual fights at various points throughout the final battle instead.

It would have worked much better if they'd reused Natasha's line when she and Okoye helped out Wanda in the battle at the end of Infinity War - "She's not alone." That would have resonated more, and it would have been a nice nod towards Natasha not being there.

Yes, it was heavy handed, but if it pissed off manbabies who object to anyone but straight white guys being heroes, it would be worth any amount of heavy handedness.

[Perfect Xero]

I think the idea of a shot/challenge where all the MCU women come together is cool.

My problem with the scene is that Carol had just blasted straight through Thanos's warship like it was nothing in one of the coolest moments of the battle so initially the scene plays more to me like Peter is underestimating Carol rather than it seeming like a dire challenge that should require all the MCU ladies working together.

[swanpride]

Considering that she fails to complete her mission, I guess the help was needed. It just wasn't enough.

[frenchtoast]

10 hours ago, Dani said:

I’ve gone back and forth on that moment multiple times. Then when I heard that someone posted a version of Endgame that edited out all the “feminist” and “gay” moments I decided that I love that scene. Yeah it felt heavy handed but sometimes I feel those moments are necessary. 

9 hours ago, swanpride said:

I was first also on the "on the nose" side, but then I rethought my position and realised that I shouldn't even notice that there are only females on screen. I mean, there are all male scenes through the whole battle, having a line-up in which there happens to be only females shouldn't be any special. That it still is means that we need more of this, not less. Until we don't notice anymore.

I don't want the scenes included solely to piss off people. After giving it some thought, and thinking of how many all male shots like that there have been, I was ok with the pandering. Because hell yes there should be some pandering. And honestly, all this talk about how it wasn't right because of this reason or that reason sounds an awful lot like how the goal posts are always moved for women to achieve anything or be acknowledged for anything. It's just the same narrative where it's never the right time or never the right 'thing', whatever that thing might be. Eff that noise. Give me those blatant scenes so we can all see them. 

And it seems like Marvel has seen the money they can get for diversifying which can only be a smart business move. Is it pandering? When they're making that much money wouldn't it just be a realization that supposed 'niche' markets are actually not just for that one market. That if done well it will also have a universal appeal. And if they promote the idea that they are trying to gain a larger audience by being inclusive, I'm all for it. (The only one I won't watch is Blade because vampires scare the shit out of me and I don't want to sleep with the lights on for a week.) This probably isn't clear or making much sense, but in sum I don't want diversity or representation because of spite. I want it because it's good storytelling and it's interesting and I want to see different people with different histories so I can understand my fellow human beings better. And if Marvel emphasizes that and makes money off it, too? All the better.

And I just realized that Endgame should be available for me to watch right now if I want. WOO HOO!! It's going to be stupidly hot here today, and I know what I'm doing. 

[stealinghome]

Quote

This probably isn't clear or making much sense, but in sum I don't want diversity or representation because of spite. I want it because it's good storytelling and it's interesting and I want to see different people with different histories so I can understand my fellow human beings better. And if Marvel emphasizes that and makes money off it, too? All the better.

ITA with this and am really, really hoping that Marvel continues to diversify its representation. Black Panther and Captain Marvel have been good starts and I hope Marvel keeps going strong in that direction.

With that said, though, I was meh on the girl power team-up moment because imo it felt unearned and way too self-congratulatory given the MCU to date. It felt to me like Marvel wanted to get quick or easy points for being pro-powerful women, but the moment kind of rang hollow because the MCU hasn't put in the work to where it felt like it flowed with the track record established in the however many movies led up to Endgame. I'm not willing to give Marvel a cookie for one team-up shot of most of the MCU ladies when Marvel's overall track record re: gender--and even in this fucking movie, given Natasha's death (imo)--has been shoddy. If they want a cookie from me, they need to do better.

Now, double with that said, the degree to which that moment is making the manbabies upset delights me to no end given that it's like a four-second piece of the movie, so at the end of the day I'm glad that Marvel kept it in. But even better than that one shot would be Marvel doing much better across the board by its female characters in the next decade. If they can do that, then maybe the next time we get a shot of all the MCU heroines teaming up, it will feel earned and authentic and there won't even be a discussion about whether or not it's pandering because the storytelling will have built up to that moment appropriately.

[JessePinkman]

The biggest problem with that scene, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that outside of Shuri and Okoye, Nebula and Gamora (the only real relationship in the bunch) none of those women have ever spoken to each other. It feels like pandering and is doubly so because unlike seeing Cap, Tony and Thor team up it feels unearned and the MCU has been so much about earning these big moments.

There is a serious problem when Star-Lord and Spider-Man have interacted more in one movie than Natasha and Wanda have in 4.

That said the scene was dope, it just highlighted some of the issues with the MCU that I think they're consciously working on (Carol and Maria's relationship in CM was a thing of beauty).

[swanpride]

Well, half of the battle is pandering and fanservice.

I agree that Marvel hasn't done enough yet, but they have to start somewhere.

[Bruinsfan]

Those stilted showpiece trailer-ready moments just always take me out of the movie for a bit, which annoys me. I felt the same way about the camera circling around the Avengers all back-to-back in the first movie, and them all lining up to jump into the fray in slow motion at the beginning of Age of Ultron. So I guess this movie was due one of those shots, and it just happened to only feature all the remaining female characters. But as a Girl Power scene, Natasha, Okoye, and Wanda teaming up to fight Proxima Midnight in the last movie felt completely organic and therefore far more effective in service of the story.

[scriggle]

there are so many things wrong with this that I don't know where to begin. But it certainly explains the mess they made of Steve's character. Because they didn't get Steve's character to begin with. They deliberately destroyed it in EA because they didn't like Steve. Well fuck them. I can't imagine how cevans will feel when he hears about this. He cares deeply for Steve as a character and to learn the men who directed his movies felt that Steve was only "a patriotic white male" and totally missed the essence that is Steve must be disheartening.

Fuck you Russos!

Endgame will be the first mcu movie where I won't be buying the dvd.

ETA: Apologies. I fell victim to a troll. Though I stand by my statement that they fundamentally misunderstand the essence of Steve Rogers. That ending proves it to me.

Edited July 30, 2019 by scriggle

[stealinghome]

2 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

But as a Girl Power scene, Natasha, Okoye, and Wanda teaming up to fight Proxima Midnight in the last movie felt completely organic and therefore far more effective in service of the story.

Yes!!! I LOVED that moment, easily one of the two or three best in Infinity War for me. And as you said, that moment feels much more earned and therefore works so much better—it’s telling, I think, that there was no “but it’s pandering!/inorganic!/etc.” response to that moment. It just goes to show that Marvel CAN definitely do better—and as others have said, it looks like they’re making it a priority in future movies, which is awesome!

[Wynterwolf]

7 hours ago, scriggle said:

I stand by my statement that they fundamentally misunderstand the essence of Steve Rogers. That ending proves it to me.

 @scriggle  You might find this article somewhat cathartic. It breaks down how the Russos/M&M basically broke their own character arc that they had been building for Steve from the prior movies, in order to take that weird tangent for Steve in Endgame. 

Quote

The scene is meant to be understood in a vacuum, devoid of any and all context of Steve's cinematic journey and relying specifically on the information contained within Endgame and only Endgame.

[scriggle]

13 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

 @scriggle  You might find this article somewhat cathartic. It breaks down how the Russos/M&M basically broke their own character arc that they had been building for Steve from the prior movies, in order to take that weird tangent for Steve in Endgame. 

Thanks. That's a good read. They're really twisting themselves into pretzels in a futile attempt to justify that God awful ending.

[Anduin]

21 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

 @scriggle  You might find this article somewhat cathartic. It breaks down how the Russos/M&M basically broke their own character arc that they had been building for Steve from the prior movies, in order to take that weird tangent for Steve in Endgame. 

That article is wrong. Ignore it. I've already explained why Steve's ending was good.

[scriggle]

3 minutes ago, Anduin said:

That article is wrong. Ignore it. I've already explained why Steve's ending was good.

That article is correct. They ignored the character arc that they themselves set up in the previous movies to suddenly have Steve obsessing over Peggy.

I've already explained why Steve's ending is horrific. So we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Anduin]

The reason Steve has a good arc and good farewell. At the end of Endgame, he'd just seen an army powered by magic and science appear to save the universe. He signed up to fight Nazis, remember? He'll always do his best, but saving the universe is a little above his level. For that matter, he put his all into beating Thanos the first time, and got pushed away easily. He's completely out of his depth. However, these other people seem to have it covered. For that matter, Bucky is good again.

Everyone else has the situation covered, at least for now. If he sticks around, he'll only be drawn into the next crisis. Finally, Peggy is still on his mind from earlier. This is the perfect time to get out, so he does. Yes, Frozen Steve. Yes, it's either an alternate universe or he keeps a low profile. No, he didn't know Sharon was part of his family at the time. It's wonky, but it works.

[Jeebus Cripes]

6 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

 @scriggle  You might find this article somewhat cathartic. It breaks down how the Russos/M&M basically broke their own character arc that they had been building for Steve from the prior movies, in order to take that weird tangent for Steve in Endgame. 

The article is spot-on. This bit:

Quote

Steve's stories could have, very easily, been constructed around his inability to let go of his lost love--but they never were.

FACTS.

5 hours ago, Anduin said:

The reason Steve has a good arc and good farewell. At the end of Endgame, he'd just seen an army powered by magic and science appear to save the universe. He signed up to fight Nazis, remember? He'll always do his best, but saving the universe is a little above his level. For that matter, he put his all into beating Thanos the first time, and got pushed away easily. He's completely out of his depth. However, these other people seem to have it covered. For that matter, Bucky is good again.

Everyone else has the situation covered, at least for now. If he sticks around, he'll only be drawn into the next crisis. Finally, Peggy is still on his mind from earlier. This is the perfect time to get out, so he does. Yes, Frozen Steve. Yes, it's either an alternate universe or he keeps a low profile. No, he didn't know Sharon was part of his family at the time. It's wonky, but it works.

I respect your opinion, but in my opinion everything you just said is completely out of character for Steve. Steve Rogers does not run away from a fight. Never has. Nor does he assume someone else will handle things if a situation is "pointed south," to quote him from Civil War. 

[Anduin]

31 minutes ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

The article is spot-on. This bit:

FACTS.

I respect your opinion, but in my opinion everything you just said is completely out of character for Steve. Steve Rogers does not run away from a fight. Never has. Nor does he assume someone else will handle things if a situation is "pointed south," to quote him from Civil War. 

He didn't run away from a fight. He left when the fight was over. Also, people change.

[swanpride]

Not Steve Rogers. That is the great thing about his character in the first place, that he will always do the right thing.

[scriggle]

7 hours ago, Anduin said:

The reason Steve has a good arc and good farewell. At the end of Endgame, he'd just seen an army powered by magic and science appear to save the universe. He signed up to fight Nazis, remember? He'll always do his best, but saving the universe is a little above his level. For that matter, he put his all into beating Thanos the first time, and got pushed away easily. He's completely out of his depth. However, these other people seem to have it covered. For that matter, Bucky is good again.

Everyone else has the situation covered, at least for now. If he sticks around, he'll only be drawn into the next crisis. Finally, Peggy is still on his mind from earlier. This is the perfect time to get out, so he does. Yes, Frozen Steve. Yes, it's either an alternate universe or he keeps a low profile. No, he didn't know Sharon was part of his family at the time. It's wonky, but it works.

If you liked it, great, I’m happy for you.

There's not a single part of your explanation that works for me.

I’m not happy with it. I didn’t like it (neither steve’s ending nor the movie in general) for many reasons and that’s just as valid an opinion as yours. 

They retconned Steve’s entire character arc to get to that ending. As for the ending itself, if it’s a closed time loop (which the movie itself implies) then that means Steve trapped himself in a living nightmare where his identity must remain hidden and he must be passive and powerless, allowing all sorts of terrible things to happen because according to the time travel rules they set up, Steve can’t change the past. If it’s an alternate timeline, then either Steve created a brand new timeline for the sole purpose of getting his happily ever after with his 1950’s trophy wife. Or he usurped Alt!Steve’s place in an existing alternate timeline. Both of those options are incredibly problematic imho and turn him from a good man into a monster.

No matter how I parse it, I cannot make that ending ring true to the Steve Rogers that was presented to me on screen. And believe me, I've run thru countless scenarios trying to make it work for me.

The Steve I saw in the films would never do either of those two things. Never. Steve has always been about resiliency, adapting, moving forward, doing what’s right. He would never choose to go backwards, to give up. Never.

I know I’m not going to change your mind. By the same token, you’re not going to change mine. Agree to disagree.

[swanpride]

The "alternate timeline" is still the least worse of the scenarios for me, and it is still bad in a lot of ways.

[swanpride]

Btw, after thinking about this for a long. looong time...I would have just skipped the "turn over the shield" scene, and instead have just something "going wrong" and then having Cap lost in time, with his fate being unclear. yeah, this would have been kind of a depressing ending for him, but it would also be kind of finding to have the man who got lost in time literally lost in time. And it would have kept all the possibilities open.

They could have had a scene for Steve, Falcon and Bucky in which Steve says that he knows that if something happens to him, good men like them would continue his work, and then, after Cap vanishes, a scene in which Bucky indicates that if anyone deserves to take up Steve's mantle, it should be Falcon.

[Morrigan2575]

28 minutes ago, swanpride said:

scene, and instead have just something "going wrong" and then having Cap lost in time, with his fate being unclear

That's actually what I thought would happen, that Cap would be lost in space/time until Evans agreed to come back.

I don't hate Steve's ending but, I love Steve/Evans and, would want him in the MCU forever (if possible) so I'd have preferred the lost in space ending to what we got.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[Wynterwolf]

2 hours ago, scriggle said:

Steve trapped himself in a living nightmare where his identity must remain hidden and he must be passive and powerless

Exactly! It's basically Steve running away to hide, wrapping himself in cotton wool.  Where Steve's entire character history was built around doing the opposite.  And if it's an alternate universe, then he decided to ditch all his friends and create his own personal Sims community, which is still basically him running away to hide somewhere safe, while others are left to rebuild the mess he was part of creating (I'm not saying he was responsible, but as a participant I just can't see how he wouldn't have willingly taken on the obligations to help rebuild and move forward, because I think stubbornly moving forward no matter what has always been central to his character in pretty much any iteration.  And they could have easily done that by having him pull a Carol and go off to other planets to see where he could help out, especially after Carol's comment to Rhodey.).

It's still striking to me how similar Steve's actions (the context is obviously different) are to a Twilight Zone ep (it's a really good ep and it can be watched for free at this link) where an autistic man wills himself into a dollhouse in a museum, ostensibly to be with an idealized woman (a doll in the dollhouse) who, like Peggy in Endgame, doesn't ever speak in the ep,.  In the ep, the man's actions are also sort of presented as a 'happy ending', and you feel good for him for succeeding in escaping the situation he's in and you assume he's finally happy, but if you look at the actual context of what happened to the man and how it's filmed, it clear that it's really about the man committing suicide. 

And with the title release of Dr. Strange 2, and also the premise of the Loki TV series... apparently Steve just totally blew off the mission he had agreed to perform and left the universe in chaos in order to have that 'ending' with Peggy.   

[clack]

Steve must be pushing 40 (in real years) in 2023. When is he allowed to retire? 50? 65? Never? Until he dies in battle, as did Tony and Natasha?

Must he renounce his chance at personal happiness, at a possible family with the woman he loves, in order to fight a never-ending war?

The war with Thanos was the Avengers' WWII. Peace is now achieved. True, this peace will not last forever, but if a WWII veteran neglects to serve on the frontlines in Korea, in Vietnam, does he neglect his duty?

The Avengers have won the great war. If there was ever a time for Steve to leave soldiering behind, this is it.

[Wynterwolf]

2 minutes ago, clack said:

If there was ever a time for Steve to leave soldiering behind, this is it.

Absolutely agree, and the end of Endgame wasn't a 'time for soldiering' anymore, he didn't have to run away to a different time to escape that, and his urge to 'soldier' has always been more in his own head, than in his environment.  But at the end of Endgame, it was finally a time for rebuilding and moving forward to help create a better future, that could have easily given him the (in character) purpose he needed to 'stop soldiering', the purpose he spoke to Sam about trying to find. 

[festivus]

The war is won but there is still chaos from half of the world's population just being dropped back in. I just can't believe that the Steve I've been watching would turn away from that. I would have preferred the lost in the quantum realm or the helping out on other planets explanation to explain his absence. Then you can still move ahead with the story of Sam being Captain America without Steve's character being sacrificed.

edit: Posted while Wynterwolf was posting, but yeah, agreed.

[frenchtoast]

I watched it at home last night and I loved it more. In the scene where Nat and Steve are talking about how they haven't moved on, there is a pair of point shoes on a chair next to Nat. What a great little blink and you'll miss it set decoration. If I was savvy I'd post a picture, but sadly, I'm not.

[swanpride]

Steve would be around 39 in 2023, yes. Which actually makes him one of the youngest Avenger. He is roughly the same age as Black Widow. Tony, Rhodey, Scott, Bucky aso are all older than him, only Wanda and Vision were younger. And naturally Peter.

[clack]

1 hour ago, Wynterwolf said:

Absolutely agree, and the end of Endgame wasn't a 'time for soldiering' anymore, he didn't have to run away to a different time to escape that, and his urge to 'soldier' has always been more in his own head, than in his environment.  But at the end of Endgame, it was finally a time for rebuilding and moving forward to help create a better future, that could have easily given him the (in character) purpose he needed to 'stop soldiering', the purpose he spoke to Sam about trying to find. 

But he's not escaping to a different time -- he's returning to his own time. He's going home.

If Peter Parker were somehow to be transported to the 22nd century in order to fight some menace, would he be shirking his duty if, having defeated this menace, he would return to 2019, given the chance?

[JessePinkman]

Steve lost in time is a super dark ending for him, especially without any certainty that Evans would return. I don't understand preferring that over him happy with Peggy but to each their own.

I guess I get the complaints about how they wrapped up his story but he made one selfish decision after years of selflessness, Steve may be the immovable object but at the end of the day he's still just a kid from Brooklyn.

[stealinghome]

50 minutes ago, clack said:

But he's not escaping to a different time -- he's returning to his own time. He's going home. 

If Peter Parker were somehow to be transported to the 22nd century in order to fight some menace, would he be shirking his duty if, having defeated this menace, he would return to 2019, given the chance? 

Steve isn't going home, though. The middle of the 20th century isn't his time anymore. It's not his home anymore. Steve himself says as much at the end of Ultron.

My issue isn't with Steve retiring and going off to figure out his life--I definitely agree he's earned that right, and I could totally see post-Thanos Steve feeling that way, tbh (since he seems to have felt that way in 2023 before Scott comes back). My issue is with him going back to the past to do it. IMO that just doesn't work for the character at all as presented up until Endgame.

I do think that unless he died, wrapping up Steve's story was always going to be really hard for the writers because the character had mileage left and writing Steve out was clearly dictated by Evans wanting out of the franchise (as opposed to Tony, where RDJ wanted out but I also really do think this is the right time for the character to bow out). I just think the writers screwed the pooch in how they did it, and the fact that they're all scrambling to explain everything in interviews--and contradicting each other in those interviews--is a good sign that they did, in fact, screw the pooch.

Put differently, I would make the same comment on the Infinity War vs Endgame lady team-up shot discussed above: while sad and some fans wish it hadn't happened, no one is arguing that Tony's death was out of character or didn't work for Tony's character arc as presented in the MCU. That suggests Tony's death was good storytelling that built on what came before. The fact that the debate continues to rage over Steve's suggests (imo) that the writers fucked up on some level, because if they hadn't, there wouldn't be a debate.

Edited July 31, 2019 by stealinghome

[Spartan Girl]

So NONE of the deleted scenes involved Professor Hulk confronting Ross or throwing him out of the funeral or anything even REMOTELY justifying why he even needed to come back to the MCU in the first place or giving any closure to the fallout from Civil War.

Excuse me a sec...

 

Yeah, I'm getting more pissed about this than Steve's ending.  So basically everything that happened in Civil War was washed away, Ross didn't get any comeuppance, Hulk didn't get justice, etc etc.  Fuck the Russos.

[Fukui San]

Here's the tweak on Steve's ending that I would have suggested if they wanted to end up with him being sidelined in time:

During the final fight with Thanos, at some point the stones get scattered and different characters wield one or two stones each.

Thanos has the Time Stone and is opening time portals, flinging dinosaurs and spaceships at the heroes.

Steve heroically saves someone but falls through a time portal. A big moment.

Eventually Tony gets all the stones and does what he does. Thanos dies.

In the aftermath, they honor Tony and then make preparations to return the artifacts. They're working on finding Steve and rescuing him as well. Old Steve shows up and tells them not to bother. He went back 50 years, and made the most of it, found Peggy, etc.  It's already happened and can't be undone. He gives the shield to Sam.

That ending, a hero gets shunted into a situation which is actually a paradise or good situation, has been used before in comics to sideline characters. I remember Puck from Alpha Flight going out that way. Taking away the intentional plan to go to the past I think takes out a lot of what has bothered people.

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, JessePinkman said:

Steve lost in time is a super dark ending for him, especially without any certainty that Evans would return. I don't understand preferring that over him happy with Peggy but to each their own.

I guess I get the complaints about how they wrapped up his story but he made one selfish decision after years of selflessness, Steve may be the immovable object but at the end of the day he's still just a kid from Brooklyn.

Speaking only for myself. I would prefer the lost in space/time because I would have 100% expected that Evans/Steve would return in a Phase 4 film. Basically it was open ended as opposed to the ending we did get, which is mostly final. 

As I said, I don't hate Steve's ending, I'm glad he got his HEA with Carter. I would just prefer more Evans as Cap.

[Silver Raven]

YouTuber Whitney Avalon has come up with a Peggy Carter song called "Waiting For That Dance".

[morakot]

16 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

 @scriggle  You might find this article somewhat cathartic. It breaks down how the Russos/M&M basically broke their own character arc that they had been building for Steve from the prior movies, in order to take that weird tangent for Steve in Endgame. 

Thank you @Wynterwolf - I appreciate this. It validates the way I've been led to think about his life in the 21st century and makes me understand why the end of Endgame was such a needle scratch.

Steve Rogers has spent far more of his adult life in the 21st century than he did in the 1930's.  He's been told to move on by Peggy, by Natasha, even by the Scarlet Witch. Yes, he's been a soldier -- and that military support system has been important to him. (I personally believe that his whole time as Nomad after he resigned from the Avengers was so clearly a bout of deep depression -- Rogers was always clean cut and kept his uniform clean and in one piece.)

@Anduin suggested that Rogers was tired of war and fighting and wanted to rest. The 5 years after the snappening weren't part of active fighting. He spent his days working with veterans and hanging out. (Not depressed - he had a purpose.) It jarred for me that he was still referring to Peggy in group as the love of his life. It felt like he as holding on to a memory that had become a fantasy.

I've said before that I could see him going back to dance with Peggy because he wanted to keep the promise he had made - and yes, I agree with other commenters, that it could have been at the Stork Club. 

Those of you who have bought Endgame, is there any clarity about the second picture on Peggy's desk in the '70's. Do we see who's in the picture? I thought it might be of her two kids but wasn't sure.