S03.E09: The Beginning Is the End Is the Beginning

[SevenStars]

On 11/28/2018 at 2:50 PM, icemiser69 said:

 

Of course, I am talking a really long time ago.  Back in the old days when there was a smoking area for students.  As long as their parents signed a permission slip allowing them to smoke, they could go into a special outside area and smoke.

Really, this existed?? I never heard of something like this. Do you mind if I ask what state/city that was in ?

[DebbieM4]

On 12/1/2018 at 10:25 PM, kili said:

That's exactly what the writers have been telling us since the campaign started.

In "Katie Girl", they had the flashback where William told Beth that there will come a day in the marriage where she needs to be the one supported by Randall (where she isn't the bass and her needs need to be put front and centre). During that episode, she starts out frazzled and then ends up fired and depressed.  She wants to talk to him about her problems, but he just wants to talk about how he has decided to run for election to help the people in William's old neighbourhood. 

In "Toby", Randall states "Hey, remember what we said. If after five minutes, five days, five weeks, if you're not feeling this, I drop out." Beth struggles throughout the episode and completely loses it during the interview. In "Kamsahamnida", Beth continues to struggle, is having no luck getting an interview and snaps at Tess. When she doesn't act thrilled that Randall has hired a campaign manager, he asks her what's up and she reminds him she got fired. "For the past few weeks, I've been pretending that I'm fine, but I'm not, babe. I'm not fine." Here is her clearest example of asking for help.  He responds to that call for help by asking her to work on his campaign. She initially tells him "no" because she does not want a pity job. He gives her a long speech about how they are the perfect team. She asks him to swear it is not a pity job. "I wouldn't dare offer you a pity job." 

in "Six Thanksgivings", she is crushed to learn that he did offer her a pity job. Her self-esteem is further eroded - even her husband thinks she needs a pity job and took her suggestions which he didn't agree with just to humour her.  And she missed all of Tess's call while working that pity job.

In this episode (set a week later), Beth still doesn't have a job, they find out that Randall has no chance of winning and two of their daughter's come to talk to them within a 5 minute timespan about issues they've been hiding. Beth brings up her job search, the extra load around the house while he is away all the time, Tess going through major stuff, Deja wanting to reconnect with her Mom and the stretching of their finances as reasons to call him on the promise he made in "Toby". He categorically refuses to quit.

Beth never wanted him to campaign in the first place. She wanted support from him even before he decided to run. He never wanted to be a politician in Philadelphia until just a few months ago and now everything must give way before his dream which the odds are very much against. She's supported him emotionally for years and now she wants support. He won't stop chasing his own dream to do that. He promised he would quit if she wasn't on-board and he just told her that the promises to strangers mean more to him than that promise to her.  

That's quite a blow.

Amazing post! 

 

1 hour ago, SevenStars said:

Really, this existed?? I never heard of something like this. Do you mind if I ask what state/city that was in ?

 

It existed at my high school, in the 70's.  Long Island, New York.  We had a senior patio at our high school, and smoking was allowed there.

Edited December 3, 2018 by DebbieM4

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

(for the sake of brevity, I'm just going to assume she went to Cal U, the distinguished alma mater of Zach Morris AND Kelly Taylor).

 

On 12/1/2018 at 9:19 AM, Dowel Jones said:

And then there's the matter of tuition and fees; ~$15,000 just to get through the door at Cal.  Lots of Adele-o-grams there.

Just wanted to clarify that Cal U is a fictional school so their tuition could be anywhere from free to $50K (you know it will be whatever the writers find more convenient for their storyline). Saved by the Bell and original 90210 sent their characters to fictional Cal U in 1993, but Zoey Johnson is the latest tv character to attend this non-existent school. It's used on tv shows specifically because it doesn't actually exist so they don't have to worry about getting permission or getting in trouble for anything portrayed there.

In reality, there are two state university systems in California: CSU and UC, and tuition varies by the campus (there are 23 CSU campuses and 10 UC campuses). The tuition at Cal, the nickname for UC Berkeley, is currently just under $9K per semester. Back in the 90s and 00s, tuition for CSU and UC campuses was basically the same. The UC system has raised the cost repeatedly over the last 10-15 years so it now costs about twice as much to attend a UC. Tuition at UCLA costs about $13K this year while tuition at CSULA is almost $7K.

[GatorDeb]

On 11/27/2018 at 7:17 PM, ams1001 said:

His bio mother died when he was born.

 

No, she didn't.  Doesn't she hand Randall to his father when she gets out of the hospital and runs away?

 

I'm calling it:  Jack said Nicky "died" in Vietnam because his essence changed and he was never the same and he has subsisted in mood altering substances ever since.  The Nicky he knew died.

Edited December 3, 2018 by GatorDeb

[Vanessa1214]

5 hours ago, DebbieM4 said:

Amazing post! 

 

 

It existed at my high school, in the 70's.  Long Island, New York.  We had a senior patio at our high school, and smoking was allowed there.

I graduated in 2000 and I remember there being a picnic table near some trees where teachers and adult students were allowed to smoke. This was in South Florida. I'm sure that's not there anymore.

I also remember one of my band teachers having me make a birthday gift basket for my other band teacher, and one of the items being a carton of cigarettes. He gave me the cigarettes and money for some other gifts, and I put it all together and carried it through school to the band room. Teachers giving kids cigarettes... those were the days. 😂

[JudyObscure]

On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 10:54 PM, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Does Kate have a brain of her own? She just goes through life letting other people make her decisions for her. First, Madison comes along and tells her to be a teacher and she's like, OK. Then Toby comes along and tells her to go back to school and she's like, sure.

Seriously, like someone would be walking around thinking I can't get a good job because I don't have a degree, but I have no more idea ne'er a rabbit what to do about it.

Thank you @Kili for putting Beth's grievance list together.  I was thinking, "she should just wait out the campaign thing," and I see I was wrong.  I'll even add one more and say Randall was being self-centered even before William died, he was way too hard on his mother for doing what she thought was best for him by keeping his drug addicted father a secret, and he asked Beth to take both his father and his brother into their home that year.  She had to give up her home office!  Team Beth! 

In West Virginia?  Of course the kids had a place out back of the school where they could smoke.  What burned me, and I wasn't even a smoker, was my college allowed the men to smoke but not the women.  Of course all that was when smoking was just a bad habit,  long before it became Evil.

[doodlebug]

7 hours ago, SevenStars said:

Really, this existed?? I never heard of something like this. Do you mind if I ask what state/city that was in ?

I lived in suburban Cleveland, Ohio and, when I was in high school, back in the mid '70's, there was a 'Student Center' outside off the cafeteria where students could go outside to smoke cigarettes (and other things).  I didn't smoke, not cigarettes or other things, so I literally never went out there in the 3 years I attended the school. Had we not had it, the restrooms would've been blue with smoke.  There was a band called Brownsville Station back then that had a hit song, 'Smoking in the Boys' Room'.  Everybody knows that smokin' in the lav is cool.

[ShadowFacts]

7 hours ago, SevenStars said:

Really, this existed?? I never heard of something like this. Do you mind if I ask what state/city that was in ?

Yes, the 70s, Wisconsin.  The school did it to clear out the smoke from the bathrooms where smokers smoked all the time.  And released the teachers from the duty of chasing them out of the bathroom.  Win-win.

20 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Thank you @Kili for putting Beth's grievance list together.  I was thinking, "she should just wait out the campaign thing," and I see I was wrong.  I'll even add one more and say Randall was being self-centered even before William died, he was way too hard on his mother for doing what she thought was best for him by keeping his drug addicted father a secret, and he asked Beth to take both his father and his brother into their home that year.  She had to give up her home office!  Team Beth! 

Yes, I think Beth actually has the patience of a saint.  Taking care of her own family, Randall who is a real handful, and in-laws.  I remember people liked to kvetch about her in the first season, being too sharp-tongued, being their least favorite character, etc.  I always thought she was aces. 

[himela]

Yeah I don't like this show anymore. Sick of the back and forth for no obvious reason. It seems they don't want to show us what actually happens next.

[SevenStars]

Thanks to everyone who answered my smoking question. It's always good to learn new things. 

[Janie430]

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

  I'll even add one more and say Randall was being self-centered even before William died, he was way too hard on his mother for doing what she thought was best for him by keeping his drug addicted father a secret, and he asked Beth to take both his father and his brother into their home that year.  She had to give up her home office!  Team Beth! 

I agree with this, and I would also say that Randall's anxiety about being perfect made him inadvertently self-centered when he was a teenager.  Yes, Kevin was also self-absorbed and cruel in not accepting Randall immediately.  But we saw Randall choose to keep Kevin up in the middle of the night because he had to be perfect and overachieve at his homework (and Rebecca enable that).  We saw Randall burst in on Kevin, Rebecca and Jack when they were discussing him being sexually active with Sophie because he was having a panic attack right then about not being perfect.  I have an anxiety disorder, and so I am sympathetic about that freakout and the need for immediate reassurance.  But anxiety disorders (where you feel like you're the most awful person ever!) are a self-centered experience.   It's why you do CBT or drug therapy to remind you you're not the center of the universe.

 

I think Randall just got used to being the focus of his parent's attention and the positive or negative attention of others around him.  He's always been the star of the family academically and career-wise and having his act together.  And he's always been the one who was visually different and exposed to racism.  If he's having a midlife crisis, or reacting to William and Jack's deaths, then it seems he's reverting back to that place where he has to be an overachiever and the one driving all the action and he has to do it right or no one will love him anymore (seriously, that's how anxiety disorders feel.  You fear you'll drive everyone away with your crazy.)

[Lady Calypso]

6 hours ago, GatorDeb said:

No, she didn't.  Doesn't she hand Randall to his father when she gets out of the hospital and runs away?

From what we know, Randall's birth mother died in childbirth. Randall's father was left with baby Randall and left him at the fire station right after. As far as I know, Randall's birth mother never had Randall at a hospital.

[MsChicklet]

4 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Really, this existed?? I never heard of something like this. Do you mind if I ask what state/city that was in ?

My high school (Connecticut, early '80s) had an outdoor smoking area just off the cafeteria. They ended that by 1990.

[Soup333]

I fell off a few episodes ago and forced myself to get caught up even though my daughter abandoned the show. At this point I'm more than mildly disappointed and I'm not sure I'm even interested whatever they have planned for the rest of the season.

Once we got the sex abuse reveal and then the gay Tess talk with Aunt Blabbermouth I just knew Nicky had must have committed suicide. It was the last square on the Relevant Issue Trope bingo card the writers must have consulted as the guide for this season. Not even my cynical heart could have called a faked suicide though. Lol. So Nick's just living in up in Pennsylvania and getting mail in his government name, huh? Must be nice being dead. No frou frou mint cranberry sauce on Thanksgiving, no taxes...

The most disappointing thing for me is the wedge they just had to drive in between Randall and Beth with this political storyline. They had a great thing going and I have zero interest in watching their marriage ruined by such a bullshit storyline/Randall's selfishness.

I did like when Teen Randall had to write the essay for college. I also laughed when Tess told her parents she liked girls and Randall mistook what she was saying and had that huge grin on his face.

Told my kid she jumped ship at the right time.

[mcgkgm]

I am always way late to these threads and everything of substance has already been said.  So my ridiculous observation for this episode, re: Randall sleeping on the couch and what kind of message that might send to the girls... they have a couch in their bedroom.  I noticed it in the last episode, because I was like "damn, their bedroom is so big it has a living room in it." 

[Lastwaltz]

On 12/1/2018 at 10:25 PM, kili said:

He promised he would quit if she wasn't on-board and he just told her that the promises to strangers mean more to him than that promise to her.  

That's quite a blow.

Although I loved your whole post, I only quoted this part for simplicity. I think they're showing (whether they mean to or not) how hard political life is for politicians and their family. So much sacrifice for one of them to achieve their goals, and it's a messy combination of do-goodism and narcissm that drives them. 

[Lastwaltz]

On 12/2/2018 at 11:52 PM, SevenStars said:

Really, this existed?? I never heard of something like this. Do you mind if I ask what state/city that was in ?

Suburban Boston, circa 1970s. And we didn't even need a permission slip. And it wasn't only cigarettes we were smoking -- and, we were a private, Catholic school on top of that, lol. 

[Kdawg82]

On 12/3/2018 at 7:39 AM, doodlebug said:

Had we not had it, the restrooms would've been blue with smoke.  There was a band called Brownsville Station back then that had a hit song, 'Smoking in the Boys' Room'.  Everybody knows that smokin' in the lav is cool

Lol! This is why I love these forums ! So much comes back to me! My dad's a smoker since he's 8 years old. Yes- fu**ing 8 years old! And in HS he was caught smoking in the boys' room so thought fast and dropped the cig into his textbook and slammed it shut lol! And then when he was like 60 he ran into that teacher in church! Hilarious.  Dad liked him bc he didn't write him up though known as a hard ass. They recognized each other all these years later. But that was 10 years ago.

[lucindabelle]

On 12/3/2018 at 7:16 AM, JudyObscure said:

I was thinking, "she should just wait out the campaign thing," and I see I was wrong.  I'll even add one more and say Randall was being self-centered even before William died, he was way too hard on his mother for doing what she thought was best for him by keeping his drug addicted father a secret, and he asked Beth to take both his father and his brother into their home that year.  She had to give up her home office!  Team Beth! 

 

I would agree with you except that we saw the episode where Beth visited William, saw he was clean, saw that William had even written poems for Randall. I really have trouble forgiving Beth even though I understand. She robbed two people of years.

which explains I believe to being this back to the episode why Randall has such a hard time stopping once he’s started.

i actually don’t see the harm in letting him follow through with his campaign. But I see the frustration for Beth has been building up and this may be the straw.

but Randall I think is always aware of “times winged chariot drawing near” to quote Andrew Marvell. So he doesn’t postpone.

he didn’t take a leave of absence from his job- he quit.

fostering was his compromise- he’d have gone right to adoption.

he got his bio father back only to lose him.

it all makes a lot of sense.

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

I would agree with you except that we saw the episode where Beth visited William, saw he was clean, saw that William had even written poems for Randall. I really have trouble forgiving Beth even though I understand. She robbed two people of years.

I think you mean Rebecca.  And she didn't rob anybody of anything. When you give your child up for adoption, you give him up. Hopefully to a better life. William's the one who "robbed them of years" if you want to look at it that way.

[Bklyndeb]

On 11/30/2018 at 8:39 AM, qtpye said:

Also Randall is motivated by a misguided attempt to carryon William’s legacy. After, he got clean, William was a very nice man, who is played by a very charming actor. However, he was not some sort of social justice crusader. He was a very ordinary man that Randall has built up in his head as some type of superhero. Otherwise, why the hell is Randall not concerned with all the underserved communities in his own state?

So true.  After all Deja and Shawna lived in Newark, which is an underserved community.

But it was Wiliam's building. 🙄

[Jax7917]

I thought Beth was out of line demanding that Randall drop out of the election. He worked hard to get where he is..It;s something he's passionate about (albeit the story line is very boring to me).. and what is that showing your kids? To give up on something because you're not in the lead at the moment? Beth just annoys me. She always has to have control and just has a bad attitude 80 % of the time. There's a couple weeks left, let him ride it out .

Princess Kate walked into a school without a bachelors degree thinking she would get a teaching job? I'm surprised by the end of the episode, the principal didn't call her back with a monologue about how he's going to hire her because she'd be such a great role model.

[Lady Calypso]

56 minutes ago, Jaclyn88 said:

I thought Beth was out of line demanding that Randall drop out of the election. He worked hard to get where he is..It;s something he's passionate about (albeit the story line is very boring to me).. and what is that showing your kids? To give up on something because you're not in the lead at the moment? Beth just annoys me. She always has to have control and just has a bad attitude 80 % of the time. There's a couple weeks left, let him ride it out .

Well....he's only been passionate about it for roughly two months. Before that, he had no dreams of getting into politics. So I'd say that Randall moving at warp speed from one storyline to another, it also doesn't teach his kids a lot. He took William in, then he quit his job, then he decided to adopt (and then foster), then he bought a building in another state, then he decided to run for office. The issue is that he's running for office in a different state, one where he has to be on the road the majority of the time, taking away time with his children and wife. What does that tell them as well? If he ran in New Jersey, then that's a different story. Less travel time means that he can actually make his kids' events. But running in William's old community which is two hours away? And he has no chance in winning so he'll spend who knows how many more weeks traveling back and forth? All to help one community? He wants to help, fine. But it's more about Randall than about that community, and there lies the problem.

Spoiler

Also, according to an interview about the election, the next episode takes place on election night eight weeks after this episode, so it's not just two weeks. I think that's something they didn't convey in this episode well enough.

I found the story with Beth/Randall to be poorly written, in either case. The writing did not convey the marital issues well enough, I think. But I think Randall also feels like he needs to have control. He's constantly trying to control every little detail, sometimes to the point of complete breakdowns. I feel like Beth's been supportive of her husband up until recently.

[NUguy514]

While multiple, important, justifiable reasons have been laid out as to why Randall is being unreasonable for flatly refusing to drop out, I've seen no actual, tangible reasons as to why Beth is being unreasonable in wanting Randall to drop out.  He worked hard and is passionate about it?  Yeah, for a few months because it's his new pet cause; he'll be on to his next obsessive thing in no time.  It would set a bad example for his daughters?  Well, demonstrating that his daughters are not his priority is a worse example.  It's only another few weeks?  We actually don't know how long "a few weeks" really is: it could be two weeks, it could be ten.  The writers have been stupidly nonspecific about the timeframe, and Randall is bleeding money no matter how many more weeks it's been on a lost cause (I hope).  I just can't see any argument that defends Randall's actions here and casts Beth as the demanding, selfish wife.

[Trillian]

On 2018-12-03 at 7:39 AM, doodlebug said:

I lived in suburban Cleveland, Ohio and, when I was in high school, back in the mid '70's, there was a 'Student Center' outside off the cafeteria where students could go outside to smoke cigarettes (and other things).  I didn't smoke, not cigarettes or other things, so I literally never went out there in the 3 years I attended the school. Had we not had it, the restrooms would've been blue with smoke.  There was a band called Brownsville Station back then that had a hit song, 'Smoking in the Boys' Room'.  Everybody knows that smokin' in the lav is cool.

I think you remember wrongly, doctor.  ‘Cause everybody knows that smokin’ ain’t allowed at school!  Now i’ll be humming  that song all night, but it’s a good ne, so I don’t mind.

But, yeah, throughout the 70s & well into the ‘80s, everyone smoked everywhere, even at school. High school students were forced outside, but the teachers’ lounge was a cloud of smoke and everyone knew it.  We had our drama class in a portable separate from the main building, and our teacher used to turn a blind eye to our smoking in there as long as it was after hours. 

[CrystalBlue]

13 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Well....he's only been passionate about it for roughly two months. Before that, he had no dreams of getting into politics. So I'd say that Randall moving at warp speed from one storyline to another, it also doesn't teach his kids a lot. He took William in, then he quit his job, then he decided to adopt (and then foster), then he bought a building in another state, then he decided to run for office. The issue is that he's running for office in a different state, one where he has to be on the road the majority of the time, taking away time with his children and wife. What does that tell them as well? If he ran in New Jersey, then that's a different story. Less travel time means that he can actually make his kids' events. But running in William's old community which is two hours away? And he has no chance in winning so he'll spend who knows how many more weeks traveling back and forth? All to help one community? He wants to help, fine. But it's more about Randall than about that community, and there lies the problem.

  Hide contents

Also, according to an interview about the election, the next episode takes place on election night eight weeks after this episode, so it's not just two weeks. I think that's something they didn't convey in this episode well enough.

I found the story with Beth/Randall to be poorly written, in either case. The writing did not convey the marital issues well enough, I think. But I think Randall also feels like he needs to have control. He's constantly trying to control every little detail, sometimes to the point of complete breakdowns. I feel like Beth's been supportive of her husband up until recently.

Not to mention the financial burden of this political campaign, which Beth has warned Randall about their funds getting low, when they have three daughters to support and only one spouse working, who then gets fired from her job through no fault (that I could see) of her own.

[doodlebug]

13 hours ago, Trillian said:

I think you remember wrongly, doctor.  ‘Cause everybody knows that smokin’ ain’t allowed at school!  Now i’ll be humming  that song all night, but it’s a good ne, so I don’t mind.

But, yeah, throughout the 70s & well into the ‘80s, everyone smoked everywhere, even at school. 

LOL! I actually had a friend who ‘rewrote’ song lyrics all the time and I couldn’t remember which version was the real one.  Shoulda looked it up, but I like his version better anyway.

[Soup333]

Don’t know if it’s been mentioned but I was nervous that Kate would get the job and then the students would make fun of her. There’s no way a new teacher of her size wouldn’t get some cruel comments no matter how inspiring she is.

[Ohmo]

On 12/5/2018 at 9:56 AM, Soup333 said:

I fell off a few episodes ago and forced myself to get caught up

This is me.

On 12/5/2018 at 12:41 PM, mcgkgm said:

I am always way late to these threads and everything of substance has already been said. 

Also me.  I'm finding the time jumping less and less enjoyable because we are starting to not stay in any storyline long enough to be invested in it.  I'm interested in Tess.  I'm interested in Kevin and Vietnam and in Randall and Beth's marriage.  However, enough already with William, and I thought the introduction of Miguel's adult children was unnecessary.  The cast is bloated enough as it is.  From skimming through this thread, I agree with the unrealistic nature of Katie's schooling if she wants to teach chorus.  She's got to do student teaching in there somewhere, and the state of California has to issue her a certificate or a license.  Each state board of education does it a bit differently, but there's a certificate or a license in there somewhere.

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, Ohmo said:

and I thought the introduction of Miguel's adult children was unnecessary.

The wirters may have been reading this (or other) board.  I seem to recall people clamoring to see what happened with his kids at one point.

[Ohmo]

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

I seem to recall people clamoring to see what happened with his kids at one point.

That may completely be a preference thing.  Miguel has never done it for me.  Where the writers seem to have an issue is they bring stuff in, but they never seem to let stuff go.  Not everyone is going to like everything, so I'm not going to like Miguel.  If more about him is going to be brought in, though, then I think something needs to go.  William is the logical choice.  He's an ancillary character.  The only thread that needs to be continually picked up is anything to do with Jack because Milo's a lead.  Otherwise, if something new is coming in, something that we've already done needs to go.  The show is beginning to feel like a clip show or a series of sound bites.  I think they should have a maximum of three time periods going at once, whenever the time periods are and whomever they deal with.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Ohmo

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Ohmo said:

That may completely be a preference thing.  Miguel has never done it for me.  Where the writers seem to have an issue is they bring stuff in, but they never seem to let stuff go.  Not everyone is going to like everything, so I'm not doing to like Miguel.  If more about him is going to be brought in, though, then I think something needs to go.  William is the logical choice.  He's an ancillary character.  The only thread that needs to be continually picked up is anything to do with Jack because Milo's a lead.  Otherwise, if something new is coming in, something that we've already done needs to go.  The show is beginning to feel like a clip show or a series of sound bites.  I think they should have a maximum of three time periods going at once, whenever the time periods are and whomever they deal with.

I, personally, would rather spend more time on Miguel, someone who is still alive and has ties to the present and the past Pearsons, than William who only has blood ties to William and one season of history with them.

[Ohmo]

On 11/28/2018 at 11:21 AM, Christina87 said:

I'm a middle school chorus teacher, and let me tell you...it's a hard, hard job. This is coming from someone who had straight A's her entire life and attended a prestigious college. It's completely different from being, for instance, the choir director at a small church (not knocking them either! They are very needed). Middle school chorus requires planning for six completely different classes every day, planning concerts, producing musicals (being the director, musical director, choreographer, costume and set designer, etc), fundraising and handling money, and knowing enough music theory and history to teach different things to several different classes. Also, you have to know a LOT about child development, as music teachers are certified K-12. It's far from a job anyone could do off the street, and I think college is a fair barrier, as that's where you learn about child development / lesson planning, as well as advanced musical theory / planning events. 

This is where I think the writers blew it because I could see Kate teaching music after gaining her teaching credential.  It would have been a realistic way to discuss her weight (because her students would likely mention it.)  However, teaching is a time-consuming profession.  To suggest that Kate is going to have a challenging pregnancy, hopefully have a son, and THEN tackle teaching with NO experience is a stretch.  Lots of teachers have kids, but I know very few who started the profession fresh out of the box after having a child.  They usually have spent some time in the classroom before that because the learning curve (no matter what you teach) is steep.  I wish the writers had done this first...and then moved to Kate wanting a child (perhaps after seeing a positive effect that she had on a student).  It would have given her character a sense of purpose, as well as not made teaching seem like something you pick up if you're bored.  It's not a hobby.

Goodness yes about child development.  You take so much of that (in one form or another), it's coming out of your ears!

Edited December 10, 2018 by Ohmo

[Portia]

I know this has already been said a dozen different ways, but it was complete BS that Kate would just make a call and be interviewed by the principal for a teaching job. That's just now how these jobs are obtained, even if your resume shows that you are fully qualified. In my experience, school systems and universities require you to apply online, and the online application is set up to automatically exclude people who aren't qualified. Funnily enough, my husband recently began a "second act" career as a high school chorus teacher. He doesn't have a teaching degree--our system has a fine arts academy that sometimes hires qualified arts professionals from the community--but I don't think they would have given him a second look had it not been for his music degree and his decades of experience.  And as has already been stated by others above, teaching music in a high school is a very difficult job and involves a great deal of work that is not teaching.

I actually teared up during Tess's coming-out speech; to me it felt pretty real. And I generally didn't hate her parents' reaction, but I was surprised when they admitted to each other that they didn't see it coming. Maybe it's because I have a gay brother, but as my three children were growing up, I was pretty much always prepared to find out at any given moment that one or more of them might be gay.  

Edited December 12, 2018 by Portia

[RedbirdNelly]

On ‎11‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 10:06 AM, Lunula said:

 

Not liking that Beth wanted Randall to quit the campaign. Honestly, if there are only a couple weeks left - couldn't he stay in the race but stop campaigning as much (being away from home, spending money, etc.) but not abandon the people he is making promises to and at least stay in the race until the election is over? Not sure why quitting immediately was the only option and she went so far as to kick him to the couch over it. Randall is right, it's not over until it's over - and quitting now, especially after making such passionate promises, would kill any future he might have in politics or making a difference in that neighborhood. I think it's important to show your children that your word means something and it's not like Tess or Deja have cancer and need his support 24/7. It felt forced to me. 

I had the same thought. Once you commit to a campaign, you need to see it through absent a true emergency. Deja wanting to see her birth mom is not a true emergency. Tess explaining why she has been off lately, is not an emergency. Either scenario could spiral into one but they are not that yet. It is reasonable for him to stay in the campaign and just not go 1000% on it--you expect to lose but see it through. (and I hope he loses). But she should not have played the marriage card. She knew when he promised to quit any time that he did not literally mean "after I'm way deep in the campaign, I will quit if you ask due to stresses that are not life or death emergencies." If it was the night before election day and he was up in the polls but she decided "never mind," would she really expect to drop out then? I would have been on her side if she'd pushed him to take the foot of the accelerator on the campaign--while not totally giving up--and commit to dropping further campaigns after it ends and committing to being on sight with the family more. It would be humiliating to give that speech and quit the next day. I would not ask my spouse to do that--no matter what he promised me before the campaign got going--unless we were in a true life or death situation. I would ask for "let's finish this out quietly and then refocus on the family." Beth had every right to kick him to the couch if he'd responded to that type of offer  with "actually, I plan to file for my next race! this isn't over! I'll run for state senate next!"

[ShadowFacts]

47 minutes ago, RedbirdNelly said:

She knew when he promised to quit any time that he did not literally mean "after I'm way deep in the campaign, I will quit if you ask due to stresses that are not life or death emergencies."

Then the promise did not mean much of anything, kind of empty inasmuch as if a life or death emergency occurred, there would be no need to invoke a promise.  I think he meant to convey he would not do this if she had a problem, and she has a problem.  Messy for him to back out of the race, but he's choosing a cause he just picked up over her, pretty much without a second thought.  He's a far cry from teen Randall who wanted to delay college to help out his grieving mother and siblings.  She's taken in his brother and dying father and he's putting strangers ahead of her needs.  No bueno, as far as I'm concerned.

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, RedbirdNelly said:

I had the same thought. Once you commit to a campaign, you need to see it through absent a true emergency. Deja wanting to see her birth mom is not a true emergency. Tess explaining why she has been off lately, is not an emergency. Either scenario could spiral into one but they are not that yet. It is reasonable for him to stay in the campaign and just not go 1000% on it--you expect to lose but see it through. (and I hope he loses). But she should not have played the marriage card. She knew when he promised to quit any time that he did not literally mean "after I'm way deep in the campaign, I will quit if you ask due to stresses that are not life or death emergencies." If it was the night before election day and he was up in the polls but she decided "never mind," would she really expect to drop out then? I would have been on her side if she'd pushed him to take the foot of the accelerator on the campaign--while not totally giving up--and commit to dropping further campaigns after it ends and committing to being on sight with the family more. It would be humiliating to give that speech and quit the next day. I would not ask my spouse to do that--no matter what he promised me before the campaign got going--unless we were in a true life or death situation. I would ask for "let's finish this out quietly and then refocus on the family." Beth had every right to kick him to the couch if he'd responded to that type of offer  with "actually, I plan to file for my next race! this isn't over! I'll run for state senate next!"

As noted above, Randall gave Beth the option to pull the plug.  He didn't qualify it, he didn't tell her only a real emergency situation would qualify.  He told her that anytime things got too hard for her, she should speak up and he'd bow out.  While each of the individual problems may not be emergencies; they've certainly got a lot of real-life stuff on their plates at present.  Beth has lost her job and is having trouble adjusting to unemployment, Deja has recently reconnected with her mother and wants to see her, their daughter, who has just told them a very private truth, has been struggling emotionally for a while. The cumulative weight of all this stuff, when Randall's completely obsessive campaigning for a practically unattainable office is figured in;  could indeed require at least as much attention and time as a 'real emergency'.

 Randall doesn't need to withdraw from the race; he just needs to cut back on the campaign appearances and spending.  The other part of this is that, even though polling indicates there is no way he can win; if he keeps campaigning hard, he might just pull it out, particularly if something happens with his opponent.  Then, if he wins, he is going to need to drive 2 hours each way to Philly at least 5 days a week for the next several years; not to mention attending all sorts of political events and appearances nights and weekends.  So, he is not only expecting Beth to man the homefront for the month or two until the election; he wants her to potentially commit to years of prolonged absences from home from him.  The only reason for him to continue the campaign at this point is if he is committed to serving if he wins.  Beth has made it clear that she feels the family cannot afford that kind of sacrifice and I agree with her.

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Beth has made it clear that she feels the family cannot afford that kind of sacrifice and I agree with her.

Although I think it would have been better had they both realized this before he threw his hat in the ring.  They didn't know about Tess at that point, but they did know they were adopting anew member of the family, which is always sgoing to take time and energy, they already knew that Beth had lost her job, they already knew how far they live from Philly.  Most of this is not new information.  OTOH, no matter what job Randall gets, he will put 70+ hours a week in. 

[Lady Calypso]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

Although I think it would have been better had they both realized this before he threw his hat in the ring.  They didn't know about Tess at that point, but they did know they were adopting anew member of the family, which is always sgoing to take time and energy, they already knew that Beth had lost her job, they already knew how far they live from Philly.  Most of this is not new information.  OTOH, no matter what job Randall gets, he will put 70+ hours a week in. 

It definitely would have been better but sometimes, you can't foresee certain events happening, even when it's obvious. Randall and Beth seemed to think that they could handle it. Except they didn't consider how much time and energy it would take. Plus, what would have happened if Randall won? Would he have moved his whole family to Philadelphia? I'm actually curious if he does happen to win (hopefully not), what would he do? Either he's going to continue spending time, money, and energy going back and forth or he uproots his entire family for some dream he conjured up two months ago. That's something the family didn't seem to think of. 

Which is why running was always a dumb idea. His family loses either way. Either the kids have to leave their school and friends to move to a new state or their father spends far less time at home. 

[RedbirdNelly]

21 hours ago, doodlebug said:

As noted above, Randall gave Beth the option to pull the plug.  He didn't qualify it, he didn't tell her only a real emergency situation would qualify.  He told her that anytime things got too hard for her, she should speak up and he'd bow out.  While each of the individual problems may not be emergencies; they've certainly got a lot of real-life stuff on their plates at present.  Beth has lost her job and is having trouble adjusting to unemployment, Deja has recently reconnected with her mother and wants to see her, their daughter, who has just told them a very private truth, has been struggling emotionally for a while. The cumulative weight of all this stuff, when Randall's completely obsessive campaigning for a practically unattainable office is figured in;  could indeed require at least as much attention and time as a 'real emergency'.

 Randall doesn't need to withdraw from the race; he just needs to cut back on the campaign appearances and spending.  The other part of this is that, even though polling indicates there is no way he can win; if he keeps campaigning hard, he might just pull it out, particularly if something happens with his opponent.  Then, if he wins, he is going to need to drive 2 hours each way to Philly at least 5 days a week for the next several years; not to mention attending all sorts of political events and appearances nights and weekends.  So, he is not only expecting Beth to man the homefront for the month or two until the election; he wants her to potentially commit to years of prolonged absences from home from him.  The only reason for him to continue the campaign at this point is if he is committed to serving if he wins.  Beth has made it clear that she feels the family cannot afford that kind of sacrifice and I agree with her.

a) I know he didn't qualify it but really, she thought it meant "for any reason at all, small or big, I will just quit on a dime?" Inherent in the promise (and their relationship) is she's not going to ask him to quit for smaller things.

b) I would be pro-Beth if the scene read "Randall doesn't need to withdraw from the race; he just needs to cut back." I'm all on board with that as noted in my original post. But it read "quit now" which does not seem fair or proportionate. Absolutely--dial it back, Randall. But drop out completely late in the campaign over the 2 items cited, not realistic to me. And not something I would ask of my spouse.

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, RedbirdNelly said:

a) I know he didn't qualify it but really, she thought it meant "for any reason at all, small or big, I will just quit on a dime?" Inherent in the promise (and their relationship) is she's not going to ask him to quit for smaller things.

b) I would be pro-Beth if the scene read "Randall doesn't need to withdraw from the race; he just needs to cut back." I'm all on board with that as noted in my original post. But it read "quit now" which does not seem fair or proportionate. Absolutely--dial it back, Randall. But drop out completely late in the campaign over the 2 items cited, not realistic to me. And not something I would ask of my spouse.

But, if he were to cut back, he's 100% not going to win unless the other candidate dies or gets caught in some crazy scandal right?  So, what's the point of cutting back?

[NUguy514]

10 minutes ago, RedbirdNelly said:

a) I know he didn't qualify it but really, she thought it meant "for any reason at all, small or big, I will just quit on a dime?" Inherent in the promise (and their relationship) is she's not going to ask him to quit for smaller things.

b) I would be pro-Beth if the scene read "Randall doesn't need to withdraw from the race; he just needs to cut back." I'm all on board with that as noted in my original post. But it read "quit now" which does not seem fair or proportionate. Absolutely--dial it back, Randall. But drop out completely late in the campaign over the 2 items cited, not realistic to me. And not something I would ask of my spouse.

a) Yes, that is exactly what that unqualified promise meant.  I don't know where you're inferring what you're inferring about smaller things when that was never part of their initial conversation.

b) Well, it is something Beth is asking of her spouse based on the unqualified promise he made to her, and she has every right to do so given that promise her husband made to her.  He hasn't listened to or really supported her emotionally for a while, though, so it's not surprising he would so cavalierly break his promise to her.

[RedbirdNelly]

19 hours ago, Katy M said:

But, if he were to cut back, he's 100% not going to win unless the other candidate dies or gets caught in some crazy scandal right?  So, what's the point of cutting back?

it's a compromise position. He's around more but he doesn't humiliate himself at the same time. It's very odd for someone to run for office and just drop out before the campaign ends. It's very common to have one candidate in the lead where you barely hear a peep from the opponent because it's not worth the effort. But for him to give his speech and quit the next day--that's asking a lot (and I just don't see the justification for asking that much.)

[Katy M]

24 minutes ago, RedbirdNelly said:

it's a compromise position. He's around more but he doesn't humiliate himself at the same time. It's very odd for someone to run for office and just drop out before the campaign ends. It's very common to have one candidate in the lead where you barely hear a peep from the opponent because it's not worth the effort. But for him to give his speech and quit the next day--that's asking a lot (and I just don't see the justification for asking that much.)

So, he's quitting, but not quitting?  I'm sure Beth would be fine with that if he said that he was not going to officially withdraw, but at the same time not spend one more dollar or minute on the campaign and look for a job instead.  I just still don't really see what the point would be.  If for some reason after all that he got elected, would he immediately resign?

[Superpole2000]

On 13/12/2018 at 1:53 PM, RedbirdNelly said:

I would be pro-Beth if the scene read "Randall doesn't need to withdraw from the race; he just needs to cut back." I'm all on board with that as noted in my original post. But it read "quit now" which does not seem fair or proportionate. Absolutely--dial it back, Randall. But drop out completely late in the campaign over the 2 items cited, not realistic to me. And not something I would ask of my spouse.

And if she didn't kick him out of their bedroom. I don't like that attempt of conflict resolution. Too manipulative. What that couple really needs is to scale back their effort to save the world, get a damn job, put some money in their bank account, and look after their own family. The rest of the world will be just as good/bad without them setting themselves on fire. You can't be unemployed right after you adopt a kid. That's not an option. No wonder Deja wants to visit her mom. She probably has a job!

[NUguy514]

4 hours ago, Superpole2000 said:

What that coupleRandall really needs is to scale back theirhis effort to save the world, get a damn job, put some money in theirhis family's bank account, and look after theirhis own family.

There, fixed that for you.

[JudyObscure]

23 hours ago, Superpole2000 said:

And if she didn't kick him out of their bedroom. I don't like that attempt of conflict resolution.

I agree with that. Randall sleeping on the couch makes the girls aware that their parents are fighting and causes them all extra stress. Tess, in particular is going to think her reveal is part of the problem.  Just no to that.  It's perfectly possible to sleep in the same bed, back to back, while not getting along. 

The way I see this thing is Beth is perfectly within her rights to make Randall quit the campaign, but it's going to end in a case of Beth choosing being right over the marriage and Randall choosing his obsession with the campaign over the marriage. Someone, either one, needs to "call marriage" on themselves and put the family first. 

[Lady Calypso]

On 17/12/2018 at 7:23 AM, Superpole2000 said:

And if she didn't kick him out of their bedroom. I don't like that attempt of conflict resolution. Too manipulative. What that couple really needs is to scale back their effort to save the world, get a damn job, put some money in their bank account, and look after their own family. The rest of the world will be just as good/bad without them setting themselves on fire. You can't be unemployed right after you adopt a kid. That's not an option. No wonder Deja wants to visit her mom. She probably has a job!

I agree that kicking him to the couch was stupid. It was really only done for dramatic effect for television. I think they could have showcased Beth being upset at Randall without kicking him to the couch, where their children could see. Perhaps him sleeping on the floor in their room, or Randall sleeping in the basement or hell, even have Beth get into bed and put pillows in between them. 

I also want to say that I officially hate the flashforwards. Some shows do them well, but it's often a poor attempt at drama in the present day. Flashforwards are especially hard to do since they are in the future and set things up for the present day stuff. Look at how quickly they shoved the Toby/Kate flashforward into the present day to get rid of it. Same with the Kevin/Zoe flying to Vietnam flashforward from last season's finale. The Kevin/Zoe flashforward being shown in the present day worked well, but the Toby/Kate stuff was clearly shown as the showrunners not having a clue on how to conclude that storyline. We literally had that as a two episode plot and then they wrapped it up. 

With the Randall Pearson family flashforward, not only is it set at least fifteen years into the future, but they're doing a poor job at having it relate to the present day issues. No way do I believe that Randall/Beth are divorcing in the present day. Which means that either I'm wrong and those two are getting separated fifteen years before the flashforward stuff starts or they're going to try to mask their flashforward divorce and have it happen much, much later. Or they're not divorced at all and this is just TV DRAMA, which is the most likely option. 

Should I give a shit as to whether Randall/Beth are divorced fifteen years from now? We're only getting glimpses of the future in about a thirty second scene every four episodes. Unless the show is renewed and we're getting a fifteen year time jump, why should I care? Some shows can incorporate flashforwards fairly well. This show is doing an extremely poor job of it because it's taking place too far into the future. They can't incorporate anything too important in those flashforwards since they're still telling a present day story. They can't reveal Randall/Beth being divorced because then, what, do they follow through with it in the present day or is it just a stupid way of manipulating the audience and having it happen well after the present day storylines? Maybe it happens ten years from now, or it happens during the flashforwards. But....why is it important to waste time on those scenes when we have characters in the present day that need focus on? 

At least the past scenes make sense since it's explaining the characters, for the most part, and being interwoven with the present day stuff. The flashforwards are pointless and you could take them out completely to make this season better. This season is relying heavily on either the Vietnam flashbacks or the Who Is She flashforwards. At least the former has relevance to the present day. 

It's probably why I see what the exact issues are with the present day Randall/Beth storyline. It's about the flashforwards, not the present day. They had the couch scene for the flashforward with Beth at that dance studio, rather than it making much sense.

I also want to end my rant on stating how much I've decided I hate the Nicky is alive story. We don't need every biological family member popping up, you know! 

[Katy M]

4 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I agree that kicking him to the couch was stupid. It was really only done for dramatic effect for television. I think they could have showcased Beth being upset at Randall without kicking him to the couch, where their children could see. Perhaps him sleeping on the floor in their room, or Randall sleeping in the basement or hell, even have Beth get into bed and put pillows in between them. 

I don't think seeing their father sleeping on the couch will traumatize the kids.  My mom used to sleep on the couch all the time because my dad would snore.   Then my dad would sleep out on the porch in the summer because he would get too hot.  The Kids are not going to automatically jump from dad sleeping on couch to thinking their parents are getting divorced.  And, I don't know about Randall, but no way am I sleeping on the floor.  Not since my mid-30s anyway.  And putting pillows in between them sounds more childish than anything else.

[PRgal]

On 12/18/2018 at 2:34 PM, Katy M said:

I don't think seeing their father sleeping on the couch will traumatize the kids.  My mom used to sleep on the couch all the time because my dad would snore.   Then my dad would sleep out on the porch in the summer because he would get too hot.  The Kids are not going to automatically jump from dad sleeping on couch to thinking their parents are getting divorced.  And, I don't know about Randall, but no way am I sleeping on the floor.  Not since my mid-30s anyway.  And putting pillows in between them sounds more childish than anything else.

Your MOM slept on the couch?  Why didn't she send your DAD to the couch? #justsayin