Past Seasons Talk: The Tribe Has Spoken

[Guest]

I think in their shoes I would've tested the buddy system or slipped its noose before going 39 days out there with best case scenario of getting second place to Rob.  I would've been more proud to have played Matt's game than Grant's.  At least Matt tried.  It was a dull season to watch because Rob controlled it so completely and almost no one tested his power, for me anyway.  

[henripootel]

It was a dull season to watch because Rob controlled it so completely and almost no one tested his power, for me anyway.

I think it's important to remember that the producers (read: Probst) made it ABUNDANTLY clear that they wanted Rob (and Russell) to go deep in the game.  Anyone who doubts this should re-watch the TC where Russell got voted off - Jeffy made no effort to hide his disgust.  Less suspicious folks than myself wondered how much the producers were willing to do to make sure Rob won.  I'm onboard with the idea that they hand-picked compliant folks for Rob (and directed him an HII) but the idea that they got rid of the reward challenge so nobody would ever be outside of Rob's view, even for a moment ... mmm, maybe.  That one seems a bit of a stretch, even if that's pretty much what Rob was able to do with the situation.  It did make for some pretty dull viewing.  It seemed pretty clear from the beginning that everyone on Rob's tribe was vying for second place, behind Rob. 

 

Did enjoy Rob's performance at tribal councils, even with the resurgence of Rob's 'I'm only here to support my family' thing.  Most impressive, none of the other contestants made either of the following points.  One, "I've got a family Rob, we all do - what about them?"  Two, "How about this, Rob - you support them by, I dunno, gainful employment".   

[Guest]

Yeah.  I generally don't subscribe to the theories that they flat out help some peoples' games but sometimes you really have to wonder.  Especially with Rob, Russell and Rupert.  

 

I enjoy watching Rob charm people but here he just seemed to have starstruck allies and was begging for a blindside.  I guess it's all in the editing.  That was one of my least favorite seasons and I'm a Rob fan in general.  I think he's brilliant.  But it was like watching an NFL MVP against the high school team or something.  

[KimberStormer]

I think in their shoes I would've tested the buddy system or slipped its noose before going 39 days out there with best case scenario of getting second place to Rob.  I would've been more proud to have played Matt's game than Grant's.  At least Matt tried.  It was a dull season to watch because Rob controlled it so completely and almost no one tested his power, for me anyway.  

 

I completely agree with you, and though God knows I've suffered through some terrible seasons I am sure that if ever Rob's buddy system becomes SOP then I will quit watching Survivor, because it was a Orwellian prisoner's-dilemma/Milgram experiment soul-death thing utterly at odds with everything I like about Survivor.  I know I'm sometimes at odds with accepted axioms of Survivor (so-called "non-casual") fandom, but until Redemption Island I would proooooooobably have agreed with the orthodox idea that there's no "bad sportsmanship" in Survivor if it works: whatever despicable lies, hideous broken promises, insincere prayers and promises on your children's immortal souls, any sincere attempt to get to the end and win is fair and "in bounds".  But I no longer think that.  Lying is fine, cheating is great, but the buddy system is literally evil, recapitulating totalitarian Stasi inform-on-your-family-for-ideological-impurity shit.  Games, I think, are in many cases about allowing players to do things they can't normally do.  Survivor, to me, is certainly a game which is partly about giving you permission, encouragement, and even obligation to do things which in real life are immoral or unethical: to lie, to manipulate, to be utterly selfish, etc.  (Just as boxing gives you the same license to hit people, or Grand Theft Auto to kill people and drive away in their brand-new sports car.)  But in my opinion, it should not give you permission to inform on your neighbors to the authorities.  That's not the kind of permission it's for.

 

I say "authorities" advisedly, and hopefully this points to why the buddy system will probably never catch on, because Rob's use of his experience went way deeper than the sheer comfort with the game that we saw from, for example, Coach, on his third go-around.  (And that comfort is no small deal; it took Coach--Coach!--straight to the end and almost to the win.)  And deeper than his 'zombies' simply being 'starstruck', though that too.  (That starstruckness, you could argue, was a good deal of what brought Stephenie to the end--perhaps she was indeed everyone's goat by the end, but she was surely helped early by being a Beloved Survivor Icon.)  What happened with Rob, I think, is that due to his natural leadership, his enormous reputation, his Heroes VS Villains edit, and Probst's deference, he was seen by his tribemates not only as a quasi-celebrity but as a quasi-producer.  What he said was almost like when Probst says something--it's Official.  Someone (Andrea?) said in some interview that he lied to them about the idol rules, and they just believed him about it instead of asking a producer (or cameraman or anyone without an obvious incentive to lie in his own favor).  And I think a lot of that went on.  He told them "this is how you play Survivor, you keep to the buddy system" and they just took him at his word, because of this enormous aura of authority.  Milgram experiment stuff, I say again.  Terrifying to me.  An abyss of obedience to absolutely nothing real, and everyone hurling themselves down it together.

 

I'll agree that I'd rather be Matt than Grant; this is probably a bit too high-falutin' symbolism for, you know, real life, but at least as a TV show character, we can imagine that Matt could resist (so feebly!) Rob's ersatz authority because he had faith in a higher power; which is now and again an inspiration of resistance in the real world (MLK, Dorothy Day, etc), after all.  Other people (besides Francesca and whatever her ally's name was) were working within his horrible system, whether because they had the fear put into them after mild disobedience (Andrea), thought they could sneak through within it (Ashley), self-deludingly believed in it as a meritocracy (Grant), or they decided second place was better than nothing (Phillip, unless he really did just go lose his mind).  But as they say you can't use the master's tools to dismantle the master's house, and Rob came out on top like a Party bigwig or member of the 1% exactly as his system was designed.  Gross!  Horrible!  Incredibly depressing!  What a season!

 

The funny thing is that Sandra, perhaps Rob's closest ally in HvV, would have shattered that system instantly had she been on that island.  The best thing about Sandra in HvV is her cutting through Russell's bullshit paranoid miasma whenever he tries to imply he has more power or authority than anyone else on the island.  Her fearless, bored, unimpressed "I'm against you, Russell" is just the thing to expose the naked silly man puffing himself up, and surely would have deflated Rob's bullshit in everyone's eyes.  Can't you see her saying, you know, "Fuck you, Rob, I'm going to talk to who I want to talk to" in such a way that everyone starts laughing and nobody is afraid of Rob anymore?  I love Sandra.

Edited September 1, 2015 by KimberStormer

[loki567]

Great post, KimberStormer. It's funny but in describing how horrible RI is as a season, you almost make the case for how important is for people to watch. Like it should be the center of a behavioral psychology class somewhere.

 

And in some respects that's why Redemption Island, South Pacific and YMMV One World are necessary to the Survivor pantheon, we needed seasons that bad just so people would realize how pointless it would be just going along like sheep to the slaughter. It seems like starting in the Philippines, there's been an explosion of more aggressive gameplay with people not liking their position and pulling risky moves to change it. 

[ProfCrash]

I think they changed who they cast recently and have looked for people who will be more aggressive. I am assuming that one of the lessons from Blood vs Water two, and to a lesser extent one, was that you need to have people out there who know the game and want to play it not people who are there to make a family member happy or who are totally clueless as to how to play the game.

 

I think Keith made it onto second chances because people really want to see if he can play the damn game instead of his blindly stumbling through the game.

 

The fans are more interested in people who play the game and less interested in sheep.

[cherrypj]

I'm watching Vanuatu now (yes, I'm slow), and I just saw the episode (#11) when Leann gets blindsided. That made me laugh and silently whoop (it's late!): what a great episode. Season 9 is actually really nice to watch: Ami, Eliza, Scout, Chris, and Twila! Go Twila! I haven't read a whole lot on this forum, or on TWOP, about Season 9, and I wonder why. I like it much better than All Stars, that's for sure (Lex and Kathy really soured that one for me). Who knows if the last three episodes (I skip the reunions) will change my mind.

 

I'm impressed that Ami managed to hold her alliance together for so long. Groups of four tend to work; she held together a group of six.

 

Episode 11 is the Loved Ones episodes; I love 'em. They all make me cry.

 

I haven't seen seasons 12-27--I'm working through them in order--and I'm hoping there really are some great seasons in there. I've read about a few in these threads, and they're on my list. :)

[Oholibamah]

I'm watching Vanuatu now (yes, I'm slow), and I just saw the episode (#11) when Leann gets blindsided. That made me laugh and silently whoop (it's late!): what a great episode. Season 9 is actually really nice to watch: Ami, Eliza, Scout, Chris, and Twila! Go Twila! I haven't read a whole lot on this forum, or on TWOP, about Season 9, and I wonder why. I like it much better than All Stars, that's for sure (Lex and Kathy really soured that one for me). Who knows if the last three episodes (I skip the reunions) will change my mind.

I'm impressed that Ami managed to hold her alliance together for so long. Groups of four tend to work; she held together a group of six.

Episode 11 is the Loved Ones episodes; I love 'em. They all make me cry.

I haven't seen seasons 12-27--I'm working through them in order--and I'm hoping there really are some great seasons in there. I've read about a few in these threads, and they're on my list. :)

I always thought I hated Vanuatu until I actually rewatched it... And it's pretty good. My issue with it is actually a positive: the players are mostly round characters, which is interesting to watch but makes it difficult to fully get behind any of them.

3 of my Top 5 seasons are from the 12-18 era. I've also seen it referred to as "The Golden Era", so I hope you enjoy!

[Way Wes Jr]

I finally go around to ranking the seasons for RHAP's poll.  I decided to rank these by how much I enjoyed the season, as opposed to what I thought of the winner, or what I thought of the strategies employed: and it resulted in some quirky results.  (BTW - I'd totally be behind re-doing this exercise with winners, SDT getting two spots, one for each season.)

 

I ranked the first ten seasons, then the second - and then merged the two lists; then I ranked 21-30, and merged again.

 

 Top Three:
3. Cook Islands - the entertaining version of Ozzy, mutiny, Billy making a love connection from afar (or maybe not,) and one of my favorite winners.
2. Pearl Islands - Rupert and Sandra were awesome in the first episode, Fairplay played his character perfectly, Savage treated people like crap - and got karma'ed for it - a fun season to watch.
1. Australia - it might not hold up on rewatch, but this was a cultural touchstone at the time.  Interesting characters, the most dramatic medivac of the show, wagging fingers, and a location that really tried to kill the players.  (Probst had to love taking away Colby's tarp-flag in exchange for some rice.)

 

Bottom Three:
28. All-Stars - at the time, I wasn't that excited to see any of these players.  Hatch (deliberately) harassing Sue, Rupert at his worst, and the stink of pre-game alliances hurt this one.  (And, while I think Amber and Rob played a good game, Amber being on the season in the first place was a mystery.)
29.  Nicaragua - The antics of Na Onka, the double quit, generally unlikable people all around.  A strategic nothing for a winner.  Shoe-gate.  Super bitter Jane.  The Medallion of Power. And the rumoured final tribal tie that we didn't get to see.
30. Samoa - I want to watch 16-20 different people play Survivor.  I don't want to watch the Russhole show.

 

And yes, I am aware of the apparent irony of my disliking All-Stars, but being so excited for Cambodia/Second Chances.  I'd say that voting for the contestants means that I am excited to see (some of) these players.

[kikaha]

My top 3 probably are HvV, Philippines and Micronesia, in that order.  Also liked Cook Islands a lot.  Samoa was fascinating, because Russell was like no one else I'd ever seen before, good, bad and ugly.  Other top ten for me might include Tocantins, All-Stars, Worlds Apart, Palau, Blood v Water.  

[azshadowwalker]

I'm impressed that Ami managed to hold her alliance together for so long. Groups of four tend to work; she held together a group of six.

 

I was extremely impressed by Ami. She was my favorite player that season. The ending of the season was shitty, though. I still hate Chris and the fact that Twila's bitterness got him to the end, and ultimately got him the win.

 

2. Pearl Islands - Rupert and Sandra were awesome in the first episode, Fairplay played his character perfectly, Savage treated people like crap - and got karma'ed for it - a fun season to watch.

 

 

Pearl Islands is the first season I watched from start to finish as it aired. It's what made me a fan of the show, and willing to give reality TV, as a genre, a chance. I was, am and will continue to be a fan of both Rupert and Sandra, especially as they were in that season. Also a hater of Savage, and hoping to see him get another ass-kicking by karma over the next few weeks.

Edited September 19, 2015 by azshadowwalker

[LadyChatts]

I hated Vanuatu when it first aired.  At the time, I had it ranked only above AS and Thailand.  I still wouldn't call it a favorite season, but over time, I don't dislike it as much as I did then.  I don't remember it being very popular with fans, because I know Jeff really liked it and said he was puzzled why it didn't go over better with fans (that was then anyway).  I enjoyed the women's side, minus that little annoying twig Eliza, more than the mens side.  Oh, and Scout, who was just there.  I liked the younger men much more than the older guys, and I was disappointed they got picked off.  Chris, I couldn't even believe with his poor challenge performance he lasted that first TC.  He was pitiful.  I do think his win is underrated, but at the same time, I think he also got extremely lucky.  I enjoyed Ami much more here than I did in Micronesia.  I loved Twila, thought she wholeheartedly deserved the victory, and am disappointed we have yet to see her return.  I remember more about the women, but aside from Chris and Rory, I don't remember much about the men that season.  I forgot there was even a guy named Sarge.  In all, I think it had an interesting mix of characters.  It was just one of those seasons where I thought it might have gone better had certain people outlasted others.  Truthfully, I am surprised we haven't seen more returnees from this season.

 

It kind of ranks in the middle for me right now.  I don't dislike it as much as I did back then (when you consider all the craptastic seasons that followed it), but it isn't one I absolutely love and could re-watch over and over again, either.

[Guest]

Micronesia and Cook Islands are my favorites.  I watched Africa and China for the first time this summer, and kind of liked them, they were so geographically different.  Though I love when there is water/ocean challenges and gorgeous ocean scenery the most.  But Micronesia and Cook Islands had it all-- great players, great plays, great scenery, deserving winners.  

 

I also liked South Pacific and Caramoan for various reasons.  

[SnideAsides]

I'm watching Vanuatu now (yes, I'm slow), and I just saw the episode (#11) when Leann gets blindsided. That made me laugh and silently whoop (it's late!): what a great episode. Season 9 is actually really nice to watch: Ami, Eliza, Scout, Chris, and Twila! Go Twila! I haven't read a whole lot on this forum, or on TWOP, about Season 9, and I wonder why. I like it much better than All Stars, that's for sure (Lex and Kathy really soured that one for me). Who knows if the last three episodes (I skip the reunions) will change my mind.

 

I'm impressed that Ami managed to hold her alliance together for so long. Groups of four tend to work; she held together a group of six.

 

Episode 11 is the Loved Ones episodes; I love 'em. They all make me cry.

 

I haven't seen seasons 12-27--I'm working through them in order--and I'm hoping there really are some great seasons in there. I've read about a few in these threads, and they're on my list. :)

A lot of the problem with Vanuatu, at least at the time, was that it was a Not Particularly Inventive season directly after the deliberately meta All-Stars season (the double tribal council was apparently planned for All-Stars but scrapped in Quitterpalooza 2004, and then the next most original thing about the production side of the season was... having a reward challenge before the merge in that episode?), and the pretty people didn't do well in the game. But in hindsight, knowing how bad many of the post-18 seasons are, it improves a lot upon rewatch.

[cherrypj]

I still hate Chris and the fact that Twila's bitterness got him to the end, and ultimately got him the win.

 

When I first read this sentence, I wondered if you meant "bitterness to Twila," but now I see what you meant! 

[marys1000]

Just finished watching the first season for the first time.  I loved it!  Basically I liked everyone.  Rich wasn't nearly as bad as the impression I'd been given and neither was Sue. Knowing how Rich's life derailed after his win is even more shocking having watched him seem like a pretty level headed if arrogant guy. Maybe it was a good act, maybe he just couldn't handle the win.    Sue's speech was funny, I hadn't realized it was spoken about Kelly W, I'd always assumed it was about Rich. 

I felt like Kelly screwed herself with her last two votes and then didn't help herself with her final two tribal about voting for...who you like or whatever.

I would google now and then while watching and found the article about Stacy sueing because Burnett influenced votes (which I can well believe).  Kelly W's response when asked about it was "I don't see why you would bite the hand that feeds you".  All that agonizing about what kind of person she is and wanting to play true to herself blah blah blah and then there it is -  oh, money.   Her castmates were right, she's not what she thinks of herself and very wishy washy. 

So Rudy was on one of Burnett's Eco-Challenge's.  I loved those but don't remember him.  Would love to see them all again.

 

I loved that this season seemed less rushed, everyone got a little time, people seemed real and pretty nice.  Not all shiny and groomed to within an inch of their lives not Hollywood reality celebrites or reality celebrity hopefuls.  Jeff talking to some of the people on rewards. The post show was more intimate.   Just loved it. 

[NutMeg]

In the same vein, I've just binge watched Amazon and I loved it!

 

I was going in with the cannon "Jenna was annoying and a mean girl and brought someone even more hated than her to F2, so she won", and wow did I see it differently.

 

Maybe it's because we have seen real awful in later (latest) seasons, but Jenna didn't bother me at all, and she actually played a good outlast game.

 

As for Matt, I just adore him! Not as a player, mind you, but as a person. Was he really deemed crazy because he was sharping knives ? He was (or used to be) a chef!! It's like thinking a cobbler is crazy because he keeps polishing shoes!! Or me typing in my sleep!1 Part of the training for the day job, people :-) 

 

Why do I adore Matt, you ask? Well,

 

1) he's crazy in a good way - instead of spending days like I do binge watching Survivor Amazon he learns Swedish in a weekend, and sincerely thinks that's a bad thing and maybe he should watch more TV,

 

2) he cooks fantastically (ok, I googled him, and he used to work in a very good French restaurant - which means he's also probably fluent in French - and btw his Chinese sounded pretty good to me),

 

3) hello, have you seen his bod!?????

 

4) when you google him, the first thing that you get is his LinkedIn Profile. He does have a legitimate job. And a great one at that. (i.e. he's not your typical famewhore)

 

5) he did that Madagascar horror that a friend of mine went through with: 250 km in 5 days, carrying all your food from day 1, my friend's  toenails took weeks to get back to normal, and we're not talking regular pedi here - this is truly hardcore.  

 

6) he loves him mom - I know, I know, but he is so proud of her, who she is, what she has done - meaning he likes STRONG women :-)

 

7) he's just a very interesting person. I would not want to see him back on Survivor (well, I think...) and he probably would not want to come back to it (although, who knows...), but of all the previous contestants he might be the one I'd most like to meet and talk with for a looong time.  

 

So the canon of "crazy Matt" seems wrong to me. Besides,  while his teammates saw him as crazy that one time, they didn't seem really scared of him. We've seen scared since.

 

 

[LadyChatts]

It is funny how much the passage of time can change perceptions.  I actually liked Jenna/Heidi during Amazon (heck, I don't think there was anyone I actively disliked that season).  I sometimes wonder if Jenna/Heidi would have been perceived better at the time if they hadn't been together from the start and had the close bond.  The more I've watched the older seasons, the more I realize just how much Survivor has dropped in quality in the last ten or so seasons.  Amazon definitely ranks as a top 3 season for me, and I am somewhat surprised and disappointed we haven't had more people brought back from that.  Crazy Matt, Butch burning down the camp (and getting falling down drunk after the family reward), Rob and his confessionals, Alex, Deena, and Roger's blindsides, and the men vs women split not being a total flop.  Oh yes, and Jenna/Heidi stripping for peanut butter.  I loved that the women were counted out as having no chance, and won the first challenge no problem.  It was also equally refreshing to have a 20 something male be the first boot, instead of the usual over 40 male/female that is deemed weak or annoying.  I also remember Shawna begging to get voted off, but her alliance kept her around because they needed her vote-and then she perked up once the tribe swap happened.  I would still love to see Matt and Deena return one day.  I was stunned that Matt not only lost to Jenna, but only got a single vote.  I figured Jenna had Heidi and Alex's vote locked up, but I never expected it to be so lopsided.

Edited September 22, 2015 by LadyChatts

[Jersey Guy 87]

Rob did a lot of work to get a weak end group, it was obviously a great strategy for a celebrity Survivor to win the game, it just made for boring television, it was like watching grass grow, only not as exciting as that.. Natalie was a starstruck teenager, and Philip seemed more interested in creating his goofy character. Personally, if I had been on the jury, I would have voted for Natalie and lobbied everyone else to, just to discourage anyone from playing that way in the future.

 

Phillip was more interested in developing the character of Phillip from the start.  He did a great job of finding a way to get to the end as a character, insuring a return trip.  But he was terrible for the game (and even more insufferable, if possible, his second season).

 

Just finished watching the first season for the first time.  I loved it!  Basically I liked everyone.  Rich wasn't nearly as bad as the impression I'd been given and neither was Sue. Knowing how Rich's life derailed after his win is even more shocking having watched him seem like a pretty level headed if arrogant guy. Maybe it was a good act, maybe he just couldn't handle the win.    Sue's speech was funny, I hadn't realized it was spoken about Kelly W, I'd always assumed it was about Rich. 

I felt like Kelly screwed herself with her last two votes and then didn't help herself with her final two tribal about voting for...who you like or whatever.

I would google now and then while watching and found the article about Stacy sueing because Burnett influenced votes (which I can well believe).  Kelly W's response when asked about it was "I don't see why you would bite the hand that feeds you".  All that agonizing about what kind of person she is and wanting to play true to herself blah blah blah and then there it is -  oh, money.   Her castmates were right, she's not what she thinks of herself and very wishy washy. 

So Rudy was on one of Burnett's Eco-Challenge's.  I loved those but don't remember him.  Would love to see them all again.

 

I loved that this season seemed less rushed, everyone got a little time, people seemed real and pretty nice.  Not all shiny and groomed to within an inch of their lives not Hollywood reality celebrites or reality celebrity hopefuls.  Jeff talking to some of the people on rewards. The post show was more intimate.   Just loved it. 

 

What was really different about the first season is that nobody knew being on a reality show was a way to become at least semi-famous.  Remember that the first season was a summer fill-in, not designed to cost a lot of money, not expected to draw all that many viewers, really the hope was it would do better than the (at the time) reruns that made up summer TV.  Instead, Hatch showed up actually playing Survivor (remember, there were lots of debates over whether alliances were a valid part of the game!), Colleen seemed really cute to everyone watching at home, the Rudy/Hatch relationship was fun to watch, Dr. Sean was an endearing idiot and people got into the show.  It became a big deal despite the expectations.  Nobody knew what to expect before the show began, thinking the show was about surviving on a desert island instead of a social game.  It's the only season I've ever watched more than once.

[fishcakes]

I was going in with the cannon "Jenna was annoying and a mean girl and brought someone even more hated than her to F2, so she won", and wow did I see it differently.

 

Maybe it's because we have seen real awful in later (latest) seasons, but Jenna didn't bother me at all, and she actually played a good outlast game.

 

I remember disliking Jenna a lot when the season first aired, but on rewatching it, she didn't seem that bad. I think Heidi was a bad influence because she was the one going on about the "older, fatter women" being jealous of them, and while Heidi was there, Jenna came across like a surly teenager. She wasn't that nice to Christie and she did call Deena a fat pig for wanting to eat after she came back from a food reward, but I thought she became pretty likeable once Heidi was gone. And to her credit, at the reunion show, she owned up to being a brat out there. For the most part, she didn't make excuses for herself and said she still had some growing up to do. Heidi, on the other hand, was still full of herself, all, "I was such a threat because of my athletic ability and beauty. THANK GOD no one knew that I'm also super intelligent."

[JudyObscure]

She wasn't that nice to Christie

She was dead to me after that, if you're going to be mean to someone don't make it the disabled girl. While I agree that Heidi was worse, that's a very low bar. Jenna will always be the worst winner ever to me.

[ljenkins782]

I remember disliking Jenna a lot when the season first aired, but on rewatching it, she didn't seem that bad. I think Heidi was a bad influence because she was the one going on about the "older, fatter women" being jealous of them, and while Heidi was there, Jenna came across like a surly teenager. She wasn't that nice to Christie and she did call Deena a fat pig for wanting to eat after she came back from a food reward, but I thought she became pretty likeable once Heidi was gone. And to her credit, at the reunion show, she owned up to being a brat out there. For the most part, she didn't make excuses for herself and said she still had some growing up to do. Heidi, on the other hand, was still full of herself, all, "I was such a threat because of my athletic ability and beauty. THANK GOD no one knew that I'm also super intelligent."

 

 

Totally agree. I loathed Jenna when I first watched (though was still happy she beat Rob C and left him in the dust at 3rd because I loathed him even more at the time), but on the rewatch, neither she nor Rob bothered me nearly as much. Heidi on the other hand, stayed equally awful. I do think without Heidi, Jenna wouldn't have been nearly as insufferable. Shawna, the 3rd in the "cute young girls" group, had an actual personality outside of "pretty girl" and didn't seem to fall back on the jus' jellus excuse at every turn. 

 

As for Matt, I just adore him! Not as a player, mind you, but as a person. Was he really deemed crazy because he was sharping knives ? He was (or used to be) a chef!! It's like thinking a cobbler is crazy because he keeps polishing shoes!! Or me typing in my sleep!1 Part of the training for the day job, people :-)

 

Matt was extremely socially awkward and I don't think he really got to know most people out there, so they were already a little arms-length toward him and Rob exploited that. He pushed the "Matt's crazy" angle while pretending to befriend him in private. 

 

Deena's blindside was one of my favorite moments of the season,  I found her so insufferable and smug and I loved seeing her dismissive attitude toward the younger women blow up in her face. 

 

Chris, I couldn't even believe with his poor challenge performance he lasted that first TC.  He was pitiful.  I do think his win is underrated, but at the same time, I think he also got extremely lucky.

 

Part of the reason Chris deserves his win is that he completely saved himself with the Fat 5 alliance. Convincing the men to vote off the youngest and strongest in the very beginning is a hard sell, especially coming from the guy who had just royally screwed up the challenge and had the most to lose at that tribal. 

[Guest]

I watched that season for the first time earlier this year (I think).  I knew Jenna was the winner and it kind of put a bad taste in my mouth for the season because she wasn't always very rootable.  

 

I had seen her quit All-Stars earlier, and understood that was a tough circumstance, but it also is mildly annoying.  I mean, her mother dying of cancer wasn't some new development.  I bet another past player would've loved that slot.  But I understand making a tough decision and then deciding later you screwed up, and backing out, too.  

[Oholibamah]

I watched that season for the first time earlier this year (I think).  I knew Jenna was the winner and it kind of put a bad taste in my mouth for the season because she wasn't always very rootable.  

 

I had seen her quit All-Stars earlier, and understood that was a tough circumstance, but it also is mildly annoying.  I mean, her mother dying of cancer wasn't some new development.  I bet another past player would've loved that slot.  But I understand making a tough decision and then deciding later you screwed up, and backing out, too.  

 

It is especially hard for me to swallow because that slot would have gone to Kelly Goldsmith, my alltime favorite player. That said, Jenna really loves the game so I don't hold it against her.

[LadyChatts]

Knowing that Kelly could have been there instead of Jenna always stings.  It stings even more that Kelly has never been brought back.  Given how Survivor jerks some contestants around every time one of these AS seasons rolls around, I can't blame some of them for eventually throwing in the towel.  I was somewhat surprised when Jenna showed up on AS, given what we saw during Amazon regarding her mother.  I just didn't think she'd want to be apart from her again so soon.  I hate quitters, but given the circumstances, it is hard for me to hold it against Jenna.  Same with Sue, who I think had a decent reason to leave the game.  In Jenna's case, I don't think she should have gone.  Jenna seemed so different in the years since Amazon, that I believe she was sincere when she said she watched the season back and knew she had a lot of growing up to do. 

[seasick]

Rob did a lot of work to get a weak end group, it was obviously a great strategy for a celebrity Survivor to win the game, it just made for boring television, it was like watching grass grow, only not as exciting as that.. Natalie was a starstruck teenager, and Philip seemed more interested in creating his goofy character. Personally, if I had been on the jury, I would have voted for Natalie and lobbied everyone else to, just to discourage anyone from playing that way in the future.

What I hated about this season with "Rob's Zombies" was that he was permitted to keep his followers separate  and isolated from the other players.  They never did a reward challenge where the tribe was divided up  and mixed into teams and the winners and losers separated for the day.  I cried foul on this and believe they wanted to hand Rob the win.  I'm new to this forum so apologies if this is perhaps considered a no-brainer or had been discussed ad-nauseum previously but just HAD to finally say it somewhere!!!

[Guest]

Perfectly fine to say that here.  And welcome.  

 

I miss the reward challenges.  I'm rewatching Tocantins now and just watched Brendan do a 180 on JT in one reward challenge.  He wanted to vote him out that morning, and wanted him to get to the finale that afternoon, he liked him so much.  Reward challenges really caused a lot of alliance turmoil, and that's a good thing.  

 

I didn't know it would've been Kelly from Africa in Jenna's place.   I liked her, too.  

 

I have mixed feelings about them inviting winners back, also.  Though a season of all winners might be fun.  

[Lantern7]

Anybody else get a little nauseous seeing the brief clip of Jon giving Andrew the "Fairplay Fingers"? Also, he did his impression of Randy Savage in his vote, and that takes a zero-point-zero-zero degree of difficulty. Just start every sentence of "Ooo, yeah!" and make like you're dropping a load on the john. Seriously, fuck Jon Dalton.

[KimberStormer]

Opposite.  For me it was all delight. Andrew is annoying, and the fact that Fairplay played him like a fiddle and got his goat every time is delicious to me.  I guess that's the thing about Jonny Fairplay for me: he might be the worst dude ever, but the people he was fucking with were almost all sort of deserving of being fucked with: Andrew and Rupert, two of the most self-important blowhards ever to stride the Survivor beach, Lil the obnoxious sourpuss.  And then of course, so perfectly matched against the unfuckwithable Sandra, who triumphs. 

 

I miss the reward challenges.  I'm rewatching Tocantins now and just watched Brendan do a 180 on JT in one reward challenge.  He wanted to vote him out that morning, and wanted him to get to the finale that afternoon, he liked him so much.  Reward challenges really caused a lot of alliance turmoil, and that's a good thing.  

 

Yet people still maintain JT is bad at Survivor, and was carried by Stephen!  That's a magical power JT has, he's one of the greats.

[cooksdelight]

All the Savage dislike I had came roaring back last night. I forgot what a pompous ass he was.

[peskipiksi]

Does anybody know of a place online to watch the early seasons?  I see a few of them are available on Amazon, or Hulu, but there are several that seem to be missing, not even available on iTunes for purchase.  I don't mind paying, but I'd really like to avoid buying DVDs if I can...

[ProfCrash]

If you join CBS's All access program you can watch all of the seasons.

[peskipiksi]

Thank you!  I swear I checked CBS but I guess I'm blind or something.  Now I'm off to re-watch Season Two and remind myself what Jeff Varner was like way-back-when.  That was the season that truly hooked me on this show...I remember every Thursday I felt like a kid on Christmas morning!  And I remember a whole lot about that season, but for some reason Jeff is a big blank to me.  But I really liked him last night so I need to do a quick refresher.

[Hera]

From the S31E01 episode thread:

 

I thought stealing the clue was fair game, especially since Woo worked for it: he followed Spencer, saw him searching for the idol, and then picked up Spencer's pants and the clue fell out. But even if Woo had rifled through Spencer's bag and found it, I would have still thought it was fair game. Players going through each other's things has happened often enough and for long enough that I don't think anyone who is on the show—much less returning players—has any reasonable expectation of privacy for their bags at camp. If you don't want people to find something of yours, keep it on your person at all times or find a hiding place for it in the woods. It was a school-boy error Spencer made and I suspect he will be a lot more careful this time.

Whether it was fair game or not is debatable.  I agree that Spencer should have kept better control over his stuff.  But regardless of whether rifling through someone's pants was allowed or not, I think it was definitely shady.  Especially the way Woo did it.  He acted like he was being a nice guy and giving Spencer his pants, when it was clearly obvious from the way he shook them that he was trying to see what was in them.  Then, as testimony to the fact that he knew it was wrong, he grabbed the clue and ran away with it.  If it was "fair game", then why did he run away in guilt?  It's no wonder that many of his castmates called him "Weasel Woo" (see Woo thread).

 

I'm really interested to see if Woo has developed any sort of game at all, or if he's just going to find someone to cling to and be their patsy.  My guess is he's going to make Terry his Tony.  Woo seems hopeless.

I don't think Woo ran away in guilt. I think he ran away so that there would be time to read the clue without Spencer trying to snatch it away and also to share the clue with his alliance directly.

 

As for shadiness, Survivor is a game that pretty much requires shady behavior. Following people and eavesdropping on conversations is shady. Swearing up and down that you'll vote with someone and then turning around and whipping a vote against them is shady. People can have their own lines wherever they want about what they personally would and wouldn't be willing to do in the game, but those lines shouldn't determine what the rules of the game are as far as production is concerned (which is all I really mean when I say something is "fair game"). I think if I were playing, I'd be loath to go through someone else's bag. But if my ally did, I wouldn't think twice about using any information they shared with me about what they found. And if someone went through my stuff and found an idol or a clue, I'd be annoyed, but at myself for being careless more than at the snoop (though I might decide to start targeting him or her).

 

Because I think going through people's belongings is fair game, I also think that whatever retaliation they get for it (within the rules of the game) is also fair. I have no problem with players in the game disliking players who go through their things and targeting them (or not voting for them to win)—Survivor is a social game and going through someone's belongings is a move that is likely to piss them off or make the snoop a bigger threat in the eyes of the other players, so snooping is always done at a player's peril. Depending on the people you're playing with, it can backfire spectacularly, as it did in Fiji. The revelation that Yau Man had a hidden immunity idol that he had kept from the majority of his alliance took a back seat to the indignation that Alex and Mookie had gone through Yau's things.

[Way Wes Jr]

It is especially hard for me to swallow because that slot would have gone to Kelly Goldsmith, my alltime favorite player. That said, Jenna really loves the game so I don't hold it against her.

I had to Google, (Africa was so long ago, and the curse of Kelly.)  I wish I hadn't - I now feel old, and like I've wasted a good portion of my adult life.  Dr. Goldsmith is a professor of Marketing at the Kellogg School of Management (at Northwestern.)  Though, it seems like she's done quite well without Survivor.

[Daisy]

She was dead to me after that, if you're going to be mean to someone don't make it the disabled girl. While I agree that Heidi was worse, that's a very low bar. Jenna will always be the worst winner ever to me.

 

From everything that I've heard  (and not all from Jenna)- Christie wasn't the easiest,  or nicest person to be around. Doesn't excuse the meaness to

an extent , but at the same time, I think they were mean because Christie  wwas Christie. Not because Christie was deaf .

 

It is especially hard for me to swallow because that slot would have gone to Kelly Goldsmith, my alltime favorite player. That said, Jenna really loves the game so I don't hold it against her.

 

 

Knowing that Kelly could have been there instead of Jenna always stings.  It stings even more that Kelly has never been brought back.  Given how Survivor jerks some contestants around every time one of these AS seasons rolls around, I can't blame some of them for eventually throwing in the towel.  I was somewhat surprised when Jenna showed up on AS, given what we saw during Amazon regarding her mother.  I just didn't think she'd want to be apart from her again so soon.  I hate quitters, but given the circumstances, it is hard for me to hold it against Jenna.  Same with Sue, who I think had a decent reason to leave the game.  In Jenna's case, I don't think she should have gone.  Jenna seemed so different in the years since Amazon, that I believe she was sincere when she said she watched the season back and knew she had a lot of growing up to do. 

 

 

Kelly is my favourite too. (apparently she had a baby and that's why she wasn't on the Second Chances Ballot. DAMN IT). 

[KimberStormer]

That whole taking down their bottoms upset me quit a bit.  At that point I started wondering - do they give blow jobs to not go home at tribal council? For food?   I thought James was pretty upset with Parvati, upset in such a way as I wondered exactly how far along Parvati took it to string him along.  I don't like the idea of sex being used as game play in reality tv. Showing your bits for xyz is prostitution. 

 

The only thing James needed to be upset with Parvati about was her not voting with him.  That post-Ozzy-blindside conversation between Parvati and James is actually my favorite scene in all of Survivor, and I don't think there's any especially sexual connotation at all, and frankly I think it's pretty gross to suggest so.  It's emotional, but so are a thousand other 'you blindsided me' confrontations.  The funny thing about that season is that it is Amanda and Ozzy who are shown gettin' it on, yet it is Parv who must be handing out the BJs to get anywhere, because Amanda's the Designated Virgin, and Parvati the Designated Whore... 

 

There is a particularly incoherent strain of Parvati-hate which says she's nothing but a slut using her sexuality to get men to do her bidding, and also, she always forms a women's alliance, which is inherently illegitimate.  Obviously and undeniably self-contradictory, but misogyny is like that, isn't it?

 

Sorry, I should just let it go, but this stuff just really gets to me.

[marys1000]

I wasn't referring to a specific scene, that whole season but generally toward the end I got the impression that James felt led on in more ways than just a vote.  If someone is ready to show off their private (not that Parv did this) bits for food I think its reasonable to ask what else they (and any others) are willing to do?  Its not much different to me hey I'll show you my bits, I'll let you touch my bits.......same act just a matter of degree.

Edited September 26, 2015 by marys1000

[fishcakes]

I don't think it's at all reasonable, but the main problem I have with it is that it's only the women who get accused of prostituting themselves when they show their bodies or use flirting as a strategy. No one has ever wondered if Hatch or Fairplay or Max, all of whom walked around naked, or Eddie or Reynold or Malcolm or Billy or Sash or Greg or Gregg or the many many other men who used flirting as a strategy, were out there performing oral sex in exchange for food or votes.

Edited September 26, 2015 by fishcakes

[marys1000]

Nudity is  different.  Its context.  I certainly don't think Shirin was trying to further her game by walking around bottomless.  You can't ignore gender.  Women can be swayed by flirting and yes I suppose sex, most likely as part of an overall romancing.  More are more like up for a quid pro quo.  Look at the sex industry in the US, the world.  Mostly women selling (or being sold), men buying.  Sad to say I think boys and men are gaining (as in any growth in the sex industry is sad). 

Edited September 26, 2015 by marys1000

[Zuleikha]

If someone is ready to show off their private (not that Parv did this) bits for food I think its reasonable to ask what else they (and any others) are willing to do?

But that's exactly it. Parvati didn't flash for food... Jenna/Heidi did. So it's not reasonable to use Jenna/Heidi's actions to cast aspersions on Parvati. Also, James is a very attractive man with an amazing body. There's no reason to believe that IF Parvati hooked up with him at all, it was for game play reasons rather than for "hello, have you seen that man shirtless" reasons. 

 

* And in reality, Jenna/Heidi flashed to flash (or more likely, create a TV moment). They didn't have to strip to get the food, and no one asked them to. 

[marys1000]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.. ?  Didn't I say that about Jenna/Heidi?  I used James' reactions to Parv as an example of a possibility.  I think you are being sort of over sensitive about Parvati. 

 

Let me add that in terms of menmen flirting Vytas tried it a second time and got booted for it. He is at the least a decent looking guy.  

Doesn't seem to work that way for women.

[Zuleikha]

I think you are being sort of over sensitive about Parvati.

I don't think it's oversensitive to point out that there is exactly zero reason to think Parvati engaged in sexual actions with James to advance her gameplay. That's a really gross accusation. It makes as much sense to speculate that Boston Rob hooked up with Lex pre-game because Lex sure did trust that pre-game alliance and was really pissed off when Boston Rob backstabbed him. Players get mad when they find out they've placed their trust in the wrong person all the time. 

[Trick Question]

Part of the reason Chris deserves his win is that he completely saved himself with the Fat 5 alliance. Convincing the men to vote off the youngest and strongest in the very beginning is a hard sell, especially coming from the guy who had just royally screwed up the challenge and had the most to lose at that tribal. 

I had Chris pegged as the winner as soon as the first episode ended.  I was like "how the hell did that guy who blew the challenge manage to completely avoid getting targeted at tribal council??  He must be a real player."  Sure enough, Chris ended up smooth-talking his way to the million bucks.  A hugely underrated winner.

[Lantern7]

All I remember about Chris from the first episode was his resemblance to Cyril from Oz. Also, his talk with Twila when his back was against the wall was equivalent to Lassie trying to tell Timmy about the latest mishap.

[kikaha]

 

I thought James was pretty upset with Parvati, upset in such a way as I wondered exactly how far along Parvati took it to string him along.

 

I thought he was pissed because he realized he had gotten played, in ways that probably cost him the game, two seasons in a row now.  First in China he gets blindsided with two idols in his pocket, by people (esp. women) he trusted.  Then the very next season his #1 alliance mate gets blindsided, again by people (women) he trusted, with Ozzie also in possession of an idol. 

 

Two seasons.  Two betrayals.  Two realizations that he had been made a fool of by his alliance, when (especially in China) he was a good bet to win the whole game.  I think this made James considerably more cynical: the guy who showed up in HvV was real hard to recognize.  

 

I definitely thought Richard went nude as strategy. 

 

Here's the little I I recall from the Amazon: a) laughing when some of the guys acted so cocksure about demolishing the women's tribe (talk about moronic thinking) and seeing the opposite happen; b) thinking Christie was no  picnic to live with at camp; c) fully approving when Jenna and Heidi stripped down (what man does not want to see beautiful women unclothed?); thinking Jenna looked like a bit of a bimbo early on and then seeing she was quite a bit more layered than that. 

[fishcakes]

From the episode thread:

 

The Sue Hawk seemed fishy to me, though.  Didn't she laugh it off at the time and then decide the next day she was traumatized to the point of quitting, even though Richard left the night before?

 

As I remember the sequence of events, she didn't laugh it off, but she didn't have a huge reaction at the time it occurred. She said "that's gross" or something like that and Peachy almost immediately yelled at Rich to stop it. But after they got back to camp, she was clearly upset. She was talking about it that night and asking if people saw it and honestly I think just wanting a little validation that it shouldn't have happened. Tribal Council happened that night and Rich was voted out, but she didn't know that. The next day she went off by herself and was crying and when Alicia tried to talk to her, she was pretty uncommunicative.  She didn't know that Rich had been voted out until they went to the next RC, which was two days later, I think, but by that time she'd already decided to quit.

 

I don't understand the bolded, Richard didn't leave; he won and was there til the end.   And I didn't buy her reaction on that one either.  

 

This happened during the All-Stars season where he got voted out pretty early on, not the first season, which he won.

[Wings]

Thanks, fishcakes.  I had totally forgotten that he was even on that!  

[cherrypj]

I'm simultaneously watching Season 10, Palau--four episodes in. It's re-watch, and it's reigniting my man crush on Tom Westman, v1 (although I find it hard to determine the leader: Tom or Ian. I like Ian a lot, too!). Bobby Jon even said, "He's a man's man." Million-dollar quote? Maybe! (Bobby Jon waren't stupid.)

 

I get why it's called a Pagonging--first season + it even sounds like a gong going off! But a Ulonging is worse. Koror just dominated. I love watching stuff like that--total, ruthless efficiency. I don't even mind watching a Pagonging--it means a tribe kept its shit together, and that's good strategy. 

 

Best of all, the immunity idol looks like Willard! 

[KimberStormer]

Ian was my first-ever Survivor Boyfriend.  Still <3 him. 

 

On the weird season of Project Runway where they were split into 2 teams at the beginning, one team always lost and I started calling them Ulong on TWOP and only Oholibama got it :)  Ulonging can be entertaining, but probably no Ulong will ever match Matsing, where the survivors survived it all.  With actual Ulong, the fact that they were mostly annoying dopes who picked each other made it more fun.  But I felt bad for Angie, who is one of the forgotten Survivors I would love to see again.