19 Things I Hate About You: How the Duggars Infuriate

[Aja]

 

Laid on my heart. Tender heart. Soft heart.

Aaaand so.

[Happyfatchick]

Her fake ass crying/whimpering sent me over the edge. The pitch of her voice was driving my dog crazy.

dang it!!! I just typed a whole response and poofed it when sending. last night, I watched the segment with her talking to the girl from the dress shop where Jill found her dress. I couldn't even pay much attention to the Josie aspect, I was mesmerized by Michelle's whole delivery! She was animated, talking without a script and completely believable. I was stunned. Who is this Michelle??? She really ought to quit memorizing her TH bits, she's so much more likable speaking off the cuff. (Although it may be too late for her at this point...). The other thing in this clip that made me do the doggie head tilt was how she kept TOUCHING the other woman. Uncomfortable much?

I also finally watched the bit from putt putt. THANK YOU BENJERMIN, FOR HAVING THE GRACE TO TURN YOUR HEAD AND LOOK MORTIFIED!!!!! OMG, I would have DIED if my parent did that junk!!! How horrible for the young couple. Ewww!!!

Jelly Muffin's anniversary is coming up. Anyone want to head up a collection and we can send them something from the group? No? Anybody?

And so...yeah.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[JenCarroll]

Her fake ass crying/whimpering sent me over the edge. The pitch of her voice was driving my dog crazy.

Yeah, my dog's ears went back. And really, I think that's reason enough to ban this woman from ever appearing on television again -- she's upsetting America's dogs!

[andromeda331]

I know it comes up a lot but the Duggars lack of interest in anything still amazes me. I know we say it a lot and we keep hoping the older kids will grow interest in other things but it amazes me they don't. Their happy to stay in their little bubble. The world is a big exciting place full of interesting people, cultures, books, art and so much more and they have no interest in any of it. How they believe God created the world and take no joy in the world He created is very sad.

[kokapetl]

Yeah, my dog's ears went back. And really, I think that's reason enough to ban this woman from ever appearing on television again -- she's upsetting America's dogs!

Aside from the extra special Minnie Mouse on Helium voice, she was barely able to string a sentence together, even with a cheat sheet. And you could literally pause your dvr at any moment, and Michelle always looked like a deranged nutcase, like it was a law of physics.

[GeeGolly]

I know it comes up a lot but the Duggars lack of interest in anything still amazes me. I know we say it a lot and we keep hoping the older kids will grow interest in other things but it amazes me they don't. Their happy to stay in their little bubble. The world is a big exciting place full of interesting people, cultures, books, art and so much more and they have no interest in any of it. How they believe God created the world and take no joy in the world He created is very sad.

I think this is because much of their parents' influence is fear based. With believing the Devil is around every corner waiting to pounce, I imagine it is too scary to pursue anything that brings them to far from the compound. The girls would just have to give it up to fulfill their duties of helpmeets and moms in the end anyway. as Jill has already demonstrated.

[GEML]

It's really discouraging how little interest ANYONE shows. And it's about everything. Even in their own sphere you would think that someone would show an interest in gourmet cooking, or fancy baking, or crafts, or knitting, or scrap booking - believe me - it's not at ALL normal in Fundy families for the children not to have some kind of interest that they enjoy.

[Churchhoney]

I think this is because much of their parents' influence is fear based. With believing the Devil is around every corner waiting to pounce, I imagine it is too scary to pursue anything that brings them to far from the compound. The girls would just have to give it up to fulfill their duties of helpmeets and moms in the end anyway. as Jill has already demonstrated.

 

I think that's absolutely true. But what really bugs me is that there are plenty of home-based things that they could do, even given their lifestyle and limited prospects, that I don't see them doing.

 

If I were a young woman preparing to be a stay-at-home mom who schooled her own children, I would have lots of curiosity about things like making a home garden to have vegetables and fruits and beautiful flowers in my house; creative cooking of things that would be both tasty and healthy for kids; pet care so that my kids could experience life with the animals in God's creation; and all kinds of art and craft projects that we could both enjoy doing together as a family and use to enhance our house and give as presents and donations. I'd be busy researching -- and trying to create -- homeschool materials to find the best ones before I got too busy with babies to have the time for it. I'd be seeking out all kinds of information on kids' learning, good low-cost toys and games to keep the kids entertained and active. I'd be looking into church-based volunteer activities in my community. Heck, I find all those things very interesting and I'm not a big stay-at-homer (although I was raised as one) and am no longer in the little-kid-raising age.

 

I suppose that their fearfulness might account for their seeming lack of interest in those things as well, but it really seems as if it has to be more than that. It seems like a terminal lack of curiosity and spark, even when it comes to things that would likely be a great fit for their beliefs and lifestyle.  I suppose that part of the problem may be the very very dull and chaotic schooling that they've all received and their parents' apparent lack of interest in anything but their own egos. Whatever it is, they truly seem to have killed all spark of any kind in most of those kids.

[GeeGolly]

Maybe the young ones, from Joy to Josie, haven't had anyone to really notice their interests and foster them. And without books, TV, nor regular exposure to other folks, how do they know what is out there? Most young children are given opportunities to play organized sports, take dance, and play with other children and their toys. I would think even their choice of interests would be limited.

 

Did you folks know that one can be employed delivering bagels by boat to yachts that a moored away from docks?

[Churchhoney]

And without books, TV, nor regular exposure to other folks, how do they know what is out there? Most young children are given opportunities to play organized sports, take dance, and play with other children and their toys. I would think even their choice of interests would be limited.

 

 

I was actually raised like this (although I did go to public school .... absolutely no socializing with the other children outside of school, however, and in the early grades when there was a nearly hour-long lunch period, I went home during it). Nevertheless, curiosity and spark are very hard to kill in a lot of people. They certainly were for me. Even before I went to first grade I was curious about everything and had all kinds of weird little crafts and experiments and such that I did and imaginary worlds that I lived in, essentially making something out of nothing and even though my doing it was heavily discouraged. And I got hold of any printed material I could, even though in my household the phrase "dirty books" meant virtually all books that weren't directly school- or church-related.

 

So the Duggars truly are extraordinary in having so many kids who all seem to either lack or very effectively hide any trace of interests. Don't know how they did it, but whatever their methods, they ought be prohibited, damn it.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Churchhoney

[mbutterfly]

I think that's absolutely true. But what really bugs me is that there are plenty of home-based things that they could do, even given their lifestyle and limited prospects, that I don't see them doing.

 

If I were a young woman preparing to be a stay-at-home mom who schooled her own children, I would have lots of curiosity about things like making a home garden to have vegetables and fruits and beautiful flowers in my house; creative cooking of things that would be both tasty and healthy for kids; pet care so that my kids could experience life with the animals in God's creation; and all kinds of art and craft projects that we could both enjoy doing together as a family and use to enhance our house and give as presents and donations. I'd be busy researching -- and trying to create -- homeschool materials to find the best ones before I got too busy with babies to have the time for it. I'd be seeking out all kinds of information on kids' learning, good low-cost toys and games to keep the kids entertained and active. I'd be looking into church-based volunteer activities in my community. Heck, I find all those things very interesting and I'm not a big stay-at-homer (although I was raised as one) and am no longer in the little-kid-raising age.

 

I suppose that their fearfulness might account for their seeming lack of interest in those things as well, but it really seems as if it has to be more than that. It seems like a terminal lack of curiosity and spark, even when it comes to things that would likely be a great fit for their beliefs and lifestyle.  I suppose that part of the problem may be the very very dull and chaotic schooling that they've all received and their parents' apparent lack of interest in anything but their own egos. Whatever it is, they truly seem to have killed all spark of any kind in most of those kids.

I am really wondering, since they may only display family photos and word messages, whether there would be any incentive to do other forms of artwork. As I sit here in my living room I am facing a water color painting done in Brown County, Indiana, ancient woodland -- a place we went when I was a child and DH and I go a couple of times a year because we both love it. That sort of art work wouldn't exist in the Duggar home (I believe), so how would one inspire children and youth to create such? 

[GEML]

I was actually raised like this (although I did go to public school .... absolutely no socializing with the other children outside of school, however, and in the early grades when there was a nearly hour-long lunch period, I went home during it). Nevertheless, curiosity and spark are very hard to kill in a lot of people. They certainly were for me. Even before I went to first grade I was curious about everything and had all kinds of weird little crafts and experiments and such that I did and imaginary worlds that I lived in, essentially making something out of nothing and even though my doing it was heavily discouraged. And I got hold of any printed material I could, even though in my household the phrase "dirty books" meant virtually all books that weren't directly school- or church-related.

So the Duggars truly are extraordinary in having so many kids who all seem to either lack or very effectively hide any trace of interests. Don't know how they did it, but whatever their methods, they ought be prohibited, damn it.

This. Over and over. I know dozens and dozens of people raised this way. Many even homeschooled. But they still can't crush ALL of their children's vitality. At least a few children in every family excelled in SOMETHING. Again, it might be something acceptable within that community, but they truly excel at it.

And I look at the Duggar children - Jill sort of does Midwifery. John David sort of flies. Jessa sort of takes pictures. And the money was spent. But they never get beyond early hobby stage, and that is ODD, even in that community.

[Albanyguy]

I think a lot of it is certainly fear-based (anything you enjoy is a snare set by the Devil), but a lot of it can be chalked up to just plain laziness on Jim Bob and Michelle's part. They feel that they're doing enough just to cover their kids' basic needs for food and shelter, and even that is shoved off onto other people as much as possible. They have no desire to spend any time getting to know their children and fostering individual interests. And I don't think that they even see their children as individuals, they see them as appendages of themselves. Jim Bob and Michelle themselves have no interests beyond kissing and groping each other, making babies and showing off in public. They assume that all their kids want to grow up to be just like them and replicate their lives. They'd probably be honestly surprised at the idea that their kids might be interested in anything else.

 

Also, we can't overlook the cult angle here. Like all cult leaders, Gothard stresses unquestioning obedience and blind conformity. His followers are cogs in the machine, identical foot-soldiers in God's army. Cult members aren't allowed to have hobbies or outside interests. They aren't allowed to have anything that is theirs alone or sets them apart from the herd. Any deviation from the norm is dangerous because it could promote critical thinking and lead to rebellion.

[bluebonnet]

Unfortunately I think a good part can be us.  "Us" meaning any of us who have contributed in any way to the Duggars becoming mainstays on TV and in the media.  It's possible that the Duggar kids would have continued on being scared little sheep with no interests or goals, hopes and dreams.  However, being on tv and in the public eye can be extremely limiting, especially when it's reality tv.  These kids are essentially always 'on', always working.  Even when cameras aren't there and they aren't doing interview after interview after public appearance, they still have this intense pressure forced on them that they must behave exactly as their character on tv.  TLC, the Duggars, and we in the public have happily whitewashed this family for a decade and consumed a very generic version of who they are and what they represent.  It's to be expected that the kids are practically joyless, more so than the typical fundy family kid.  They have to contend with not letting down Jesus, their family AND millions of strangers who will pounce if they happen to get caught rolling their eyes or lick a hairbrush or any other things children do.  There often just isn't any room for exploring interests in this sort of environment.  

Edited June 28, 2015 by bluebonnet

[riverblue22]

I don't know why y'all are saying the kids don't have any talents.  They are great at making signs and posters for parties and celebrations.  They can really handle a magic marker!  Reminds me of what cheerleaders do....

 

And they can handle a video camera and make a movie (no comment on the quality).  Now that's a skill that can be useful for religious empire building.

[GEML]

I do agree that a lot of the blame falls on being on TV, and as someone who has seen every episode, I'm as guilty as anyone. We've essentially provided the Duggar family with the perfect excuse to be nothing except celebrities. And they DO, in many ways, excel at being that.

[Churchhoney]

I don't know why y'all are saying the kids don't have any talents.  They are great at making signs and posters for parties and celebrations.  They can really handle a magic marker!  Reminds me of what cheerleaders do....

 

And they can handle a video camera and make a movie (no comment on the quality).  Now that's a skill that can be useful for religious empire building.

 

And painting flamingos. Don't forget painting flamingos.

Unfortunately I think a good part can be us.  "Us" meaning any of us who have contributed in any way to the Duggars becoming mainstays on TV and in the media.  It's possible that the Duggar kids would have continued on being scared little sheep with no interests or goals, hopes and dreams.  However, being on tv and in the public eye can be extremely limiting, especially when it's reality tv.  These kids are essentially always 'on', always working.  Even when cameras aren't there and they aren't doing interview after interview after public appearance, they still have this intense pressure forced on them that they must behave exactly as their character on tv.  TLC, the Duggars, and we in the public have happily whitewashed this family for a decade and consumed a very generic version of who they are and what they represent.  It's to be expected that the kids are practically joyless, more so than the typical fundy family kid.  They have to contend with not letting down Jesus, their family AND millions of strangers who will pounce if they happen to get caught rolling their eyes or lick a hairbrush or any other things children do.  There often just isn't any room for exploring interests in this sort of environment.  

 

Yes, I agree. I'm sure the tv has been a negative factor. That's one big reason why I want to see it end -- I think pretty much all sparks are covered until it does. They might stay trapped without the show, too, but with it they're really crushed.

[SpottedCoachDog]

The blanket training probably contributed as well. It is designed to "break" a child from exploring and I can see it squashing natural curiosity. The devil AND the rod waiting to pounce. The people really are child abusers on many levels.

Edited June 28, 2015 by SpottedCoachDog

[GEML]

Except I've known other children who were blanket trained (or worse). Read Elizabeth Esther's memoir for instance. Or one of the many Amish memoirs about leaving those communities. Yes, blanket training is harsh, but it's been around a long time. And it's longevity proves it's not in and of itself the reason.

[GeeGolly]

Combined all together - checked-out parents, fear of the world at large, Gothard restrictions, blanket training, being on TV & too many children - equals empty vessels.

[louannems]

I do agree that a lot of the blame falls on being on TV, and as someone who has seen every episode, I'm as guilty as anyone. We've essentially provided the Duggar family with the perfect excuse to be nothing except celebrities. And they DO, in many ways, excel at being that.

I read the book Growing up Duggar and one question was what's it like to always having a camera in your face. I think it was Jana who replied that the filming is only 2 or 3 hours per day, 2 or three days per week. So I don't blame the kids' listlessness on us!

[HundFan]

 

Edited June 29, 2015 by HundFan

[HundFan]

Happyfatchick, I've been remiss re reading this thread, but I like your idea of sending Jilly & Derick an anniversary gift, albeit a late one. How about a box of condoms?

[Churchhoney]

 

Except I've known other children who were blanket trained (or worse). Read Elizabeth Esther's memoir for instance. Or one of the many Amish memoirs about leaving those communities. Yes, blanket training is harsh, but it's been around a long time. And it's longevity proves it's not in and of itself the reason.

The tradition of breaking children's wills is a really really old and extremely widespread one. It was a major explicit aim of childraising when I was growing up. And it's such an old tradition that I would be surprised if many of history's greatest geniuses and leaders weren't raised in homes where will- and spirit-breaking were at the top of the childrearing agenda. But while I expect that most if not all people subjected to this are pretty damaged in some ways, drive, curiosity, creativity and so on can clearly survive it.

[andromeda331]

And it's such an old tradition that I would be surprised if many of history's greatest geniuses and leaders weren't raised in homes where will- and spirit-breaking were at the top of the childrearing agenda.

 

That's very true. Many of them also had the Catholic Church to contend with.

[Loves2Dance]

Happyfatchick, I've been remiss re reading this thread, but I like your idea of sending Jilly & Derick an anniversary gift, albeit a late one. How about a box of condoms?

I'm sure they gush about how thoughtful you were to send them balloons to celebrate!

[GEML]

The tradition of breaking children's wills is a really really old and extremely widespread one. It was a major explicit aim of childraising when I was growing up. And it's such an old tradition that I would be surprised if many of history's greatest geniuses and leaders weren't raised in homes where will- and spirit-breaking were at the top of the childrearing agenda. But while I expect that most if not all people subjected to this are pretty damaged in some ways, drive, curiosity, creativity and so on can clearly survive it.

It was part of the Puritan ethic - yet it created New England. Oh sure, you had the Salem Witch trials, but doesn't that just show you can't destroy imagination? ;)

[becca3891]

It's really discouraging how little interest ANYONE shows. And it's about everything. Even in their own sphere you would think that someone would show an interest in gourmet cooking, or fancy baking, or crafts, or knitting, or scrap booking - believe me - it's not at ALL normal in Fundy families for the children not to have some kind of interest that they enjoy.

Very discouraging. The Howlers have gotten a little old to be called that anymore, but it always struck me every time they were shown running wild through the house, on scooters and in general running around making messes, that they were really bored and in need of structure. I'm not saying kids shouldn't ride scooters or have free play -- I just think they needed more outlets for their imaginations and energy.

[GEML]

Take the one younger twin who had an interest in chess. It was something his grandfather had taught him. I don't know which, but I do know both grandfathers have been gone many years. That may have been the last time anyone sat down and actually TAUGHT him how to do something as opposed to the Jim Bob method of fumbling your way through something and/or just watch some professionals for an afternoon and you'll get the hang of it....

[andromeda331]

The Howlers have gotten a little old to be called that anymore, but it always struck me every time they were shown running wild through the house, on scooters and in general running around making messes, that they were really bored and in need of structure.

 

They've got to be so bored and its not like they have anything to do. Its really sad to see so many kids not being allowed to do anything. They can't go to school or get a real homeschool education. They can't use their imagination. Or even get inspired by something and follow the path. Jinger likes photography but she can only do that for her family. She can't take lessons to become a photographer. If any of them really liked musical instruments none of them can have real lessons, with a real teacher. Reading is discouraged and besides there are so few books they can read anyways. None of it is by their choice. Its their parents who decided no to all of it.  The same parents who they get to hear tell about their school days, going on dates. Why their mom even had worked. She even has friends outside her family.

[DangerousMinds]

But Jessa and Jill have more choices now.

[Churchhoney]

But Jessa and Jill have more choices now.

 

Yes, but still it takes many people (well, okay, me ...) quite a bit of time even to realize that there are choices, let alone suss them out and get up the nerve to exercise them. It's not as if a switch is flipped and you suddenly view the world completely differently. And your family upbringing forms the very structure of your brain. So the judgments of your family toward your potential choices are still going to be strong voices in your head.

 

And Jessa and Jill haven't made the really big choice that leaves you more free -- leaving completely, at a run. They still have their parents continually in their lives, playing pretty much the same roles they've always played, and when someone else is playing their familiar role, the thing that seems natural to many people is to fall into your old familiar role too, I think.

 

Plus, for many people it's difficult to imagine many of the good and constructive choices. When you've been isolated in ignorance, you first need to gain some knowledge even to know what other options are out there. And then you have to find out what it takes to pursue those options and then get up the nerve to do what it takes -- such as going out on your own to get a job. Not as easy as it sounds if you've had Jim Bob and Michelle telling you all your life that it's unacceptable to do that, that the people who run businesses you might work for are not to be trusted, etc. One choice that is more obvious is to just do the opposite of everything that you've learned. But the opposite isn't so much a choice as a knee-jerk reaction, and going the I'll-do-the-opposite route can cause a lot of chaos and often gets people into trouble, at least initially.

 

I agree that making independent choices is possible for them. But it's a helluva lot easier said than done. With time, I'm sure some of the kids will do many things their own way, but I would bet that for just about everyone raised in a controlling and isolating household it takes longer than many people think reasonable for breakaways to exercise real independence.

None of it is by their choice. Its their parents who decided no to all of it.  The same parents who they get to hear tell about their school days, going on dates. Why their mom even had worked. She even has friends outside her family.

 

Exactly. And, to me, this is classic controlling abuser behavior. Non-empathetic, mean-spirited control freaks positively relish banning their victims from doing things at the same time as they brag about doing those things themselves. That's JB and M all over, and it's pure neurotic bullshit, born of their combined massive insecurities and arrogance. Nothing "Christian" about it.

[GeeGolly]

Churchhoney, I would love to hear more about your journey. Your wisdom, empathy, as well as your sometimes disgust is evident in your posts. There are so many things about the Duggars that bug me, but also things that leave me curious. I don't share the overall hate many of the posters have for this family, just some disgust for some things they have done.

[GEML]

I'm kind of interested in what kind of life Josiah, Joy and the older twins put together. They are sort of odd ducks - their whole lives have been essentially on TV, but without the attention that their older siblings have had. They have the most opportunity, I think, to sort of slip through some cracks. They likely won't break through in a big way (they would need some major reason to do so) but they might surprise us in smaller ways. I hope so.

[Absolom]

I hope at least one of the older daughters is friends with Alyssa Bates.  She seems to have found a way to plan her life to be what she wants it to be.  Yes, she married into a Gothard quoting family, but they seem to be very much a cherry picking what of Gothard they follow.

[SomePity1066]

I think a lot of it is certainly fear-based (anything you enjoy is a snare set by the Devil), but a lot of it can be chalked up to just plain laziness on Jim Bob and Michelle's part. They feel that they're doing enough just to cover their kids' basic needs for food and shelter, and even that is shoved off onto other people as much as possible. They have no desire to spend any time getting to know their children and fostering individual interests. And I don't think that they even see their children as individuals, they see them as appendages of themselves. Jim Bob and Michelle themselves have no interests beyond kissing and groping each other, making babies and showing off in public. They assume that all their kids want to grow up to be just like them and replicate their lives. They'd probably be honestly surprised at the idea that their kids might be interested in anything else.

 

Also, we can't overlook the cult angle here. Like all cult leaders, Gothard stresses unquestioning obedience and blind conformity. His followers are cogs in the machine, identical foot-soldiers in God's army. Cult members aren't allowed to have hobbies or outside interests. They aren't allowed to have anything that is theirs alone or sets them apart from the herd. Any deviation from the norm is dangerous because it could promote critical thinking and lead to rebellion.

Albanyguy - you hit the nail on the head here - very well said ! It just boggles the mind how dull and content-free their personalities are, leaving room only for Gothard-approved activities, spying on their siblings, endlessly explaining that yes, they really ARE that modest, and "We have 19 kids !!!"

 

Even as they travel the world on TLC's dime and have the opportunity to see and experience some of the most wonderful (and humbling) things the planet has to offer they seem to take away NOTHING. You never hear them say "Wow, that looks like the building we saw in Paris..." or "This tastes like the meal we had in Scotland..."

They've been afforded an opportunity that very few people in the world ever have, but they behave like xenophobic yokels who have never been outside the borders of Arkansas. JB and Michelle seem to teach their children to remain blank slates that only Gothard can write on, and are consequently as dull as dishwater.

 

Their "meaningful" conversations have all the pizazz and warmth of elevator or bus stop exchanges. In a family that purports to be so close, the most I've ever seen from them is the kind of small talk you'd have with a stranger. No wonder they repeat the same stock, pat phrases over and over - they genuinely don't have anything else to say...

 

When I think of my childhood (not spent globetrotting, believe me) and all the simple things I was encouraged by my parents to do I'm so very grateful for their love and support - I had Girl Scouts, softball, calligraphy, gardening, music of all types, pottery, archery, and a love of reading, museums, and architecture that endures to this day. At my age I'm still discovering new things to love, like novels about the Old West most recently, and don't plan on stopping until I'm six feet under. Such a shame, a damnable shame, that the Duggars only seem to have badly executed music, broom-ball, calling "Nike !", Gothard, and, umm...errr....

 

<<crickets>>

[Micks Picks]

Oh SomePity, I regularly have much for interesting conversation with complete strangers!  Just today I met a Coptic Christian from Egypt, Alexandria, a very nice man with his mom, his niece and 3 dogs.  And that was just my first exchange for the day.  It starts with a little conversation and me asking where he is from originally.  He says a copt from Alexandria.  He is surprised that I know coptic christians at all, or much of anything about Egypt.  Goes from there.  But I know so much more today than I did yesterday.  It's surprising what happens when you Build on Knowledge instead of wandering around never incorporating anything you may have ever learned into a new situation.  The new situation increases your knowledge and understanding.  The Duggars amaze me with their ability to doggedly determine not to partake.   Hmmm the doggedly dumb duggars, maybe a new nickname.  

 

But I did see when leading some tours of Europe that some old colonels and wives could be the worst when it came to the local way of doing something or local money or whatever.  And I'd think, gee, did you never off the American bases when you were stationed here?  And they probably didn't, and at their ranks they wouldn't have had to bother about the stuff of life the rest of us to tackle.  I've often wished for an aid like the celebs hire.  Life would be easier by far to have someone else making the calls, reservations, driving you, etc.  And to be very fair to the Americans, they were getting on the older side and showing some infirmities so that is difficult to deal with.  All of a sudden the physical and mental YOU you've always been just isn't there anymore.  It's an adjustment that's tough to make.

[Happyfatchick]

Oh SomePity, I regularly have much for interesting conversation with complete strangers! ... He is surprised that I know coptic christians at all, or much of anything about Egypt. Goes from there. But I know so much more today than I did yesterday.

Wow, MicksP, you remind me so much of my mom (this is high praise!!!). Born and raised poor in South Georgia, sent to Atlanta to live in a boardinghouse so she could send $ home, she married an Army man and hit pay dirt. They were stationed twice in (2 different bases) Germany. I was born there. They were so much poorer than poor. This woman made a tent and drug her husband and children all OVER Europe. Europe!!! There are pictures from all over Germany, Holland, Italy, Spain. Pictures of my brothers at the colosseum in Rome. Pictures of my Daddy puking after a bullfight in Spain. Pictures of me being washed in the same pot she would cook dinner in later. They returned home, and never quit roaming. She's been all over the continental U.S., Hawaii, Alaska, Costa Rica, Peru, Mexico, Canada, Ireland, Australia. All (and ONLY) because she wanted to SEE. she wanted to see it, taste it, smell it, and she wanted to teach that to her children. She NEVER missed an opportunity to go SEE something. This woman who started with 2 nickels and a hunk of cornbread traveled the WORLD and made sure she learned something every single day. I never cease to be amazed at what she accomplished, considering where she started.

I can't begin to ascertain why there's such a disparity there. Why CAN'T the Duggar children carry on conversations with strangers? Why AREN'T they well read and able to converse easily? Why CAN'T they see that living "simply" doesn't mean you have to present yourself as "simple"? They have the personality (and functionality) of paper dolls.

And THIS DRIVES ME CRAZY!!! Amen and hallelujah, and off I go to the PC where I belong!

Edited July 7, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[SomePity1066]

Micks Picks - What a lovely post ! Such a contrast to what the Duggars do while abroad ! Actually, while they're here in the states as well ! I try my very best to learn as much about the people and culture of wherever I travel to, and have had much success in making connections - I think I actually try to do an "anti-Duggar" just to be sure I'm not being the Typical Ugly American...

 

I've made friends with people from all over the world both here and abroad and am fascinated by the cultural nuances, differences and similarities, as I assume you are as well, so it must really get your goat, as it does mine, when JB (it's almost always JB) sticks his big hick foot squarely in his pie hole. All the crowing about the number of kids he has while talking with a woman who has lost several of her children to hunger and disease. The inane conversation with the Amish couple where JB goes all nod-nod, wink-wink, nudge-nudge about unlimited sex because neither of their respective religions practice birth control. And, of course, the endless fake-o Spanish-o that JB insists on employing while he's in a Spanish speaking country. As one comedian put it, you're not going to be understood any better if you keep talking loud and slow English !!! As in "I WOULD LIKE TO GO TO THE HOTEL !!!"

 

JB's ignorance and self-centeredness is staggering - like the whole world is here to cater to his needs, and if other people are speaking a "funny" language or eating "funny" food then they need to man-up and take their lumps for being different, un-Godly, un-American, or un-Gothard. 

 

If I ever ran into him in public I'd smile politely and curse him (while keeping sweet !) in French and then wait for him to thank me and then tell me about his 19 kids. The scenario would be irresistible...  :)

 

 

[Micks Picks]

I would not be interested in seeing such an insular family any more.  Exchanges must take place for growth.  They want to put their way of life out their and be admired for it, but think so little of other people that they go out of their way to have no input from others.  Life is a 2 way street, and they've never even looked at the other side, let alone crossed over and mingled.  That's a big insult to me.

[Churchhoney]

 It starts with a little conversation and me asking where he is from originally. 

 

 

This is where the Duggar types set themselves apart. They're so fearful, self-absorbed, arrogant and incurious that they pretty much never reach out to the world like this. They just bounce up to people and yell "We're a family of 19 kids!" and then add "Do you know the Lord like I know the Lord (because I'm sure you don't!)."

 

As you say, nobody ever learns anything this way, either about themselves or about anything else. And it also keeps them isolated -- because who really wants to hang out with people uninterested in anything but themselves? -- which only heightens the fearfulness and the arrogance.

 

Honestly, though, the older kids all seem to be so set into -- and apparently pleased with -- this pattern that I'm beginning to think that the main Jim Bob/Michelle problem may be a big old heap of stupid in their intertwined family trees. Otherwise, it's hard for me to believe that they wouldn't have turned up at least a mild but visible skeptic of their methods by now.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Bella]

Honestly, though, the older kids all seem to be so set into -- and apparently pleased with -- this pattern that I'm beginning to think that the main Jim Bob/Michelle problem may be a big old heap of stupid in their intertwined family trees. Otherwise, it's hard for me to believe that they wouldn't have turned up at least a mild but visible skeptic of their methods by now.

I've not had the nerve to call it out quite like this, but yeah. The evident incuriosity strikes me as inconsistent with innate intelligence. I'd love to be wrong about that.

[GEML]

I will admit, the thought has crossed my mind.

[Churchhoney]

I've not had the nerve to call it out quite like this, but yeah. The evident incuriosity strikes me as inconsistent with innate intelligence. I'd love to be wrong about that.

 

Yep, I've resisted this thought for a long time, too. And I do hope we're wrong .... Unfortunately, it's hard to come up with another explanation.

 

I will say that, in my own family, lack of intelligence wasn't a requirement to accept the brainwashing and the family norms. It was a smaller family, though, and the program was set from the earliest days, so conditioning began in infancy and never got watered down because sheer numbers made full-on indoctrination too difficult, as I suspect it has with the Duggars.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Aja]

Intelligence doesn't have anything to do with susceptibility to brainwashing, unfortunately (for the Duggar kids.) It's pretty obvious that the Duggar kids are kept on short leashes and their exposure to anything outside of their cult is always framed with "we love those heathen sinners that we're so much better than", but still. The entire family, including Jim Bob and Michelle, remind me of a gaggle of tween girls (and I can say this as a former gaggle member myself.) They giggle and talk loudly and use idiotic catch phrases that they think are cool and totally reinforce each other and egg each other on and have absolutely no clue of how wretchedly stupid they come across--and don't care. Except instead of annoying me at a movie theater, they annoy me from the Walgreen's checkout magazine racks.

[GEML]

As I have said, most cults are made up of college educated people. You have to have some intelligence to fall for the lure that cults have, to put it bluntly. It's more about being at a vulnerable place in your life. So every time I hear people talk about being too intelligent to fall for "brainwashing" I sort of roll my eyes and hope your emotional resilience and support structure is always so strong and reliable.

And the Duggars are less isolated than many I've known. So I'm not buying that as a carte blanche reason either.

[Churchhoney]

Yes, and birth or toddlerhood-or-younger is a very vulnerable time. And that's when the Duggars were got.

 

Nevertheless, it still seems unusual that no curious or vibrant people or people with drive seem to have emerged among the large group who are now in the late-teen-to-young-adult stage. Many have remarked, here and elsewhere, on just how unusual that seems, but none of the Duggar "techniques" seem to be powerful enough to cause it. So for the moment I going to stick with the heap of stupid -- and the lure of tv money that's stronger than any other impulses -- as my best guess.

[GEML]

I keep coming back around to it. My biggest obstacle was Josh. Contrary to what some think, I do think he was curious and intelligent. I never was able to quite understand why he fell so in line so young without pushing back.

Now, of course, we know the rest of the story, as Paul Harvey might have said.

[Defrauder]

They preach endlessly about modesty yet privacy is a big part of modesty and they give their kids ZERO privacy.  How can someone expect to be modest when they have to share every phone call, text and thought with their parents.  Not only that they have to sleep like 10 to a room - all ages packed together - it's not modest at all!!!!  JB and Mechelle have a perverted version of 'modesty' if there ever was one.  Sick.  

[Defrauder]

Another thing that irks me about these people.  The whole 'JOY' concept (Jesus first, others second, yourself last) seems to apply to everyone EXCEPT JB!  Tell me he doesn't always put himself first.  That'll be the day when he actually puts others before himself.  What a crock. 

Edited July 7, 2015 by Defrauder