S04.E08: The Mountain And The Viper 2014.06.01

[PeteMartell]

I agree that logically, that might have happened.  However, if I'm expected to feel more for Dany - then I would had to have seen that.  Then the contrast between her being queenly in public and conflicted behind the scenes would have had impact.  As it is, I just didn't really feel anything on her behalf.  Maybe they wanted her to come off as unsympathetic, though?

 

I get the feeling they want us to see her as losing her way. Emilia Clarke said that what Dany did was a mistake - she didn't even try to defend the character. I tend to see Dany as surrendering to her Targaryen side this season. Her work in the banishment scene frightened me; it was the first time I'd ever been scared of Dany, because her tether to humanity was slipping away. 

 

I feel like the lines about her unborn child were there to remind us of why she was most angry with him. It didn't entirely work, but it did for me, somewhat. 

 

I just hope it's not going to be written as her being some type of awful shrew who gets what's coming to her because her main man isn't around.

[Fable]

Holy Christmas!!  That last scene has to be the worst thing I have ever seen on TV, including Theon's gift in a box.  Damn!  Even though I turned my head, I am sure that is going to haunt me forever! 

[PeteMartell]

I find the Ramsay Snow-Bolton torture-a-thon is getting way tedious.  Also, I don't know if it is the actor or the way he is being directed, but he is so one note eeevvvil that whenever the show goes to his scenes I feel "Oh no, not him again."

 

I don't know what they're doing with this character. I feel like they're trying to tell us he's not entirely bad, as we see him get his acceptance from his (far too hot - not that I'm really complaining) father, we saw him having consensual sex earlier this season instead of just the torture and murder. Even his relationship with Theon is written somewhat more ambiguously now. I think he is the anti-Jon Snow, in some ways, so perhaps that's where they're going. I tend to agree that he doesn't quite work. I don't know if it's the actor, or that this is a story that had no business being spread out over two seasons. Alfie Allen is selling it for me; without him I don't think I'd care. I feel like the entire North has become full of unlikeable and one-note people, outside of a few Starks and Theon. I wish we were at least seeing more of Blackfish.

[GreyBunny]

ALL they had to do was give Emilia Clarke some fake tears there at the end, and Jorah's dismissal would have improved considerably.

 

I thought I saw a flicker of...something before they cut away from her face but I'm not sure.  The scene itself had no emotional resonance for me.  It was as if Emilia and Iain filmed that scene separately and they were spliced together in the edit bay (she had that "I'm filming something involving special effects and don't know where to focus my eyes" look).  Even Iain seemed blank and he's one of those actors who can generate emotional sparks with a doorknob.

 

Regarding Theon and Ramsay, I love them (well, love to hate Ramsay).  Their relationship is profoundly psychologically dark and twisted and both actors are selling it to me.  I also like seeing the north full of bad guys since it's a reminder that even the "noble" north has opportunists and backstabbers that aren't that different from those in King's Landing.

Edited June 3, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Maum]

The whole Missandei/Grey Worm thing was so tedious. Do they even speak in the books? I can't believe after two weeks they wasted nearly a quarter of an episode on bland pretty characters that no-one cares about. I ended up FFing their scenes.

Saying that it seems a lot of people 'ship' them now.

For me the beetle scene was an allegory of RPGs. By not killing the thing at the end Tyrion is now officially chaotic good.

The big question now is whether or not TVTyrion will kill Shae. Seeing as he's the 'moral compass of the show' to a lot of fans having him kill his love (and his father) would really trump everything else that's happened so far.

[Fen]

I get the feeling they want us to see her as losing her way. Emilia Clarke said that what Dany did was a mistake - she didn't even try to defend the character. I tend to see Dany as surrendering to her Targaryen side this season. Her work in the banishment scene frightened me; it was the first time I'd ever been scared of Dany, because her tether to humanity was slipping away. 

 

I feel like the lines about her unborn child were there to remind us of why she was most angry with him. It didn't entirely work, but it did for me, somewhat. 

 

I just hope it's not going to be written as her being some type of awful shrew who gets what's coming to her because her main man isn't around.

 

You're right about the unborn child lines.  I think those did serve to make her seem irrational.  One of the memorable moments in Dany's early story is her essentially trading her child's life for Drogo's (even if she didn't know it at the time).  It felt like she transferred her rage at that on to Jorah - even though he didn't deserve it.

 

I think they've definitely worked to make show!Jorah much more sympathetic than his book equivalent - maybe that was done looking ahead to this part of the story?

 

I'm actually still fed up this morning by the horribleness of the trial by combat.

[Maum]

I find book and TV Dany equally irrational and entitled but I don't think her decision was a mistake.

 

Ultimately Jorah spied for Kings Landing and the only reason he stopped was that he fell in love with her. She's young and inexperienced and wants people she can trust utterly. If the trust is gone how can she have him around?

 

[Helena Dax]

 

Oberon having poisoned Tywin

I'm not sure anyone poisoned Tywin, but it could have been Ellaria in revenge. 

[Ariah]

I loved seeing my non-book-reader friends react to that ending. They were floored and crushed. Literally.

 

I guess the showrunners had to make Oberyn's character a little larger than life - so that his death would make an impact. And it did.

 

But other elements in the episode dragged. The pace seems off for a couple of episodes now. Like something essential is missing. I can't find the magic in the series anymore and I'm wondering what is happening.

[Haleth]

I'm not much of a fan of Dany in either show or book, but I did like the directing choice during the dismissal scene of having Dany be so cold and not make eye contact.  The lack of any emotion would be more devastating to Jorah than anger or grief from Dany.  How can he argue with a block of ice?  She is the queen and he is nothing, not worthy of her attention.  Begone, Ser Beetle.

 

I agree Alfie was outstanding in the Moat Cailin scene.

 

The only thing I look forward to at the battle at the Wall is Stannis's arrival.  I really can't wait to see epi 10.  How will the show will handle Tywin's death and Shae's and maybe the Hound's?  Will Stoneheart make an appearance?  So many questions!

Edited June 3, 2014 by Haleth

[Bannon]

In order for Show Shae to not seem completely ridiculous, they need to reveal, and have Tyrion know, that she has been a spy for Tywin from the beginning, although I can't remember from Shae's early episodes whether anything happens which makes that plot element ridiculous as well. If they manage to do that, then Tyrion's double homicide will be dramatically sound.

 

I fear they haven't done enough to make Roose Bolton anywhere close to being an interesting replacement for Tywin Lannister. The Wall remains a pretty uninteresting place, and Dany and The Dragons stills seems to be a one hit wonder. I really fear the diminishment of Clan Lannister will make future seasons much less compelling than what we have seen so far.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Bannon

[Attaboy000]

In order for Show Shae to not seem completely ridiculous, they need to reveal, and have Tyrion know, that she has been a spy for Tywin from the beginning, although I can't remember from Shae's early episodes whether anything happens which makes that plot element ridiculous as well. If they manage to do that, then Tyrion's double homicide will be dramatically sound.

 

Wait...what? In the books Shae was a spy for Tywin the whole time?

[Maximum Taco]

I'm not much of a fan of Dany in either show or book, but I did like the directing choice during the dismissal scene of having Dany be so cold and not make eye contact.  The lack of any emotion would be more devastating to Jorah than anger or grief from Dany. How can he argue with a block of ice?  

 

She is the queen and he is nothing, not worthy of her attention.  Begone, Ser Beetle.

Watching it for the second time I enjoyed it as well, but for a different reason.

 

It shows a massive amount of emotion on Dany's part, even though none of it is visible to Jorah. Sort of a "I can't look at him, if I look at him I'll want to forgive him, and I can't" motivation on Dany's part. So she detaches herself from the situation as much as she can.

 

Even in the final moments when she tells him to get out, her eyes are unfocused and dazed, as if she can't imagine what she's done.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[Avaleigh]

I agree with Maum in that I don't really feel that Dany made an epic mistake in banishing Jorah and basically feel I understand her reasons even if I do feel that book!Dany would have forgiven him. If Dany is thinking that Jorah only came to her side and stopped spying because he's in love with her, what is going to keep him loyal and content with serving her now that she's ready to have a love life again? His jealousy of Daario was obvious IMO, so I can see Dany wondering if Jorah could ever be tempted into betraying her again especially if his feelings end up getting hurt by her openly preferring some other guy.

Re: The Boltons--

Ever since some poster called him a deranged, crazy-eyed hobbit refugee, that's pretty much all I see when he Ramsay is onscreen unless Roose is there to mellow out his presence. I thought book Roose was interesting in his own right but IMO show Roose intrigues me even more thanks to MM's wonderful voice and performance. With most of the characters I still have very specific images in mind but Tywin, Roose, and Ned have all been replaced with their show counterparts in my mind.

Aww, Ariah, I hope your friends weren't literally crushed!;-)

[Jamoche]

I wonder if the show is really doing its job if people aren't invested enough in the whole story to abandon it if one character dies.

Right now I'm not even clear if there is a "whole story". Seems like it's killing time - there's a big buildup, and then something happens to reset things. Winter might be coming but it's taking its sweet time about it.

 

I've heard all about how GRRM had originally intended to have a big time skip and then decided that part had to be written anyway, but it feels like for some of the characters he knew where they were now, and 5 years from now, but then discovered while writing the gap years that actually, it shouldn't take 5 years to get to point B, so we've got to spin for a while.

 

So since the story part is just hanging around waiting to catch up to the gap, the only thing left to care about is the characters, and when we get someone cool and awesome like Oberyn who then gets sacrificed for a plot reset, what's the point?

[Bannon]

No, Attaboy, Martin has not reveled that plot development in the books, either, and is not likely to at this point. I think Martin and the showrunners have botched the Shae character, twice. Her behavior just doesn't make any sense, unless she is a complete and total moron, which makes Tyrion falling in love with her completely nonsensical. The showrunners could redeem themselves if they somehow reveal that Shae has been a spy for Tywin all along, but I doubt they can do that now. 

 

Making a world like Martin has is really hard, and mistakes are inevitable. The character of Shae has been developed very poorly, which is unfortunate, because, to me, the Lannister family machinations are by far the most interesting aspect of this world. I thought the show might improve on the Shae character, but I fear they have missed an obvious opportunity.

[OakGoblinFly]

I loved Mole Town.  Not my favorite bit in the books but we really need to see why the Wildings are not just misunderstood survivalists living beyond the wall.  Ygrette is a soldier so I don't see how her killing people for her cause is evil.  They are fighting to survive the White Walkers.  She comes from a kill or be killed world.  Mance is "kinder" because he grew up South of the wall.

 

But why take it out on the folks of Mole Town and the other villages?  They aren't the ones who are endangering the Wildings - the White Walkers and Others are.  The mindless slaughter of innocent people in those villages does put Yrigette on the side of evil.

[Bannon]

I believe the Wildlings are slaughtering the villagers in order to draw the diminished The Night's Watch out of their fortifications.

[LilWharveyGal]

 

I loved seeing my non-book-reader friends react to that ending. They were floored and crushed. Literally.

 

As was Oberyn... :(

[jjjmoss]

The Dany scene played less as ice queen struggling to hold back her emotions than bored high school queen bee dismissing a minion. To me.

[benteen]

I agree with Maum in that I don't really feel that Dany made an epic mistake in banishing Jorah and basically feel I understand her reasons even if I do feel that book!Dany would have forgiven him. If Dany is thinking that Jorah only came to her side and stopped spying because he's in love with her, what is going to keep him loyal and content with serving her now that she's ready to have a love life again? His jealousy of Daario was obvious IMO, so I can see Dany wondering if Jorah could ever be tempted into betraying her again especially if his feelings end up getting hurt by her openly preferring some other guy.

Re: The Boltons--

Ever since some poster called him a deranged, crazy-eyed hobbit refugee, that's pretty much all I see when he Ramsay is onscreen unless Roose is there to mellow out his presence. I thought book Roose was interesting in his own right but IMO show Roose intrigues me even more thanks to MM's wonderful voice and performance. With most of the characters I still have very specific images in mind but Tywin, Roose, and Ned have all been replaced with their show counterparts in my mind.

Aww, Ariah, I hope your friends weren't literally crushed!;-)

 

Hobbit, heheh.  My name for Show Ramsey is Evil Peeta Mellark because he reminds me of the actor who plays Peeta in The Hunger Games.

 

Show Roose didn't impress me in Season 2.  I didn't blame the actor, I blamed the writing for not giving him anything to stand out.  But my view on Show Roose changed in Season 3 in the scene where he tells Jaime what happened at the Battle of Blackwater and he's being a bastard like Book Roose is.  That was Roose Bolton and I've been happy with the potrayel ever since.

[OakGoblinFly]

I believe the Wildlings are slaughtering the villagers in order to draw the diminished The Night's Watch out of their fortifications.

 

I know that and that makes their actions ignoble.

[Bannon]

Well, the Wildlings' slaughtering ways may be ignoble (the overwhelming majority of  instances of humans engaged in warfare are ignoble), but ignoble is not a synonym for mindless. Their slaughtering ways are the opposite of mindless. Slaughtering the villagers, like firebombing Tokyo, or incinerating Hiroshima and Nagasaki, is strategically and tactically sound.

 

The closest thing Westeros has had to good guys with power are Ned and Robb Stark. They are both dead, and Ned's good intentions helped get him killed.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Bannon

[Avaleigh]

I can't recall much of season 2 Roose now that I'm thinking about it but it's been awhile since I saw any of those episodes. While I don't recall being unimpressed, I guess it's telling that I can't think of anything stand out off the top of my head . Most of my favorite moments I guess were from last season. In addition to delivering the news about the BoB in such a way as to bring Jaime to his knees, I of course loved the conversation he has with Walder Frey after the RW. The way he says "Forever Young" was so icy, just a perfect moment. I also thought the expression on his face when he knows that Catelyn knows what's about to go down was great.

I wish we'd seen Dany maybe subtlety clenching one of her hands or some other discreet sort of body language to show how hard the moment was for her. A hard swallow, a single tear , asking to be left alone, etc. Just something extra.

[Maximum Taco]

I know that and that makes their actions ignoble.

 

Doesn't that make them like the majority of the cast?

 

The good characters in this series are few and far between, and usually their goodness is what ends up killing them. 

 

The rest are characters that run the gamut, and are supposed to question your notions of "good" and "evil"

 

Is it wrong for the wildlings to kill innocents? Of course, but what if killing those innocents gives an entire society a better chance at survival? Is it wrong to kill tens or hundreds to give 100,000+ a chance at survival?

 

Is it wrong for Sansa to lie for Littlefinger? Of course, but what if the lie she told saves her and all the truth would do is get justice for the woman who tried to murder her? Is justice for Lysa more important than saving herself and the man who has protected her so far?

Edited June 3, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[ihartcoffee]

I can't recall much of season 2 Roose now that I'm thinking about it but it's been awhile since I saw any of those episodes. While I don't recall being unimpressed, I guess it's telling that I can't think of anything stand out off the top of my head . Most of my favorite moments I guess were from last season. In addition to delivering the news about the BoB in such a way as to bring Jaime to his knees, I of course loved the conversation he has with Walder Frey after the RW. The way he says "Forever Young" was so icy, just a perfect moment. I also thought the expression on his face when he knows that Catelyn knows what's about to go down was great.

I wish we'd seen Dany maybe subtlety clenching one of her hands or some other discreet sort of body language to show how hard the moment was for her. A hard swallow, a single tear , asking to be left alone, etc. Just something extra.

I like the actor who portrays Roose Bolton, he seems to fit the book description of him well. I find him oddly sexy too. Something about his quiet nature and steely blue eyes.

A also agree this Dany was oddly cold, in the books it felt more emotional.

[jeansheridan]

There were Crows in Mole Town so it was a military target in some ways.  Mance would have known Crows would be there. And spreading terror is a tactic of war.  I am not saying Ygrette is good so much she is a cog in a big wheel.  

 

Ramsey is much better when his father is around much like Joffrey around his own father.  I did love his shining glee looking at the skinned man.  I like the actor.  That whole sequence had a dark humor.  I liked you saw Theon had lost a few fingers.  I am glad they did not ruin his teeth.

 

I think meeting the Martells will help with Lannister loss.  They will need to be well cast.  But a new family, New location will either frustrate or engage viewers. 

[Bannon]

I'd go further, and positively say that Sansa has no obligation to be truthful in her testimony. The people who she is giving testimony to have no legitimate basis to have power over her. 

[WalterWhiteWalker]

I'd go further, and positively say that Sansa has no obligation to be truthful in her testimony. The people who she is giving testimony to have no legitimate basis to have power over her. 

 

Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!

[elzin]

Wait...what? In the books Shae was a spy for Tywin the whole time?

I think that's mostly speculation and there is nothing confirmed that she hadn't hooked up with Tywin 5 minutes before Tyrion showed up, for all we know.

 

My tinfoil theory is that she was a spy for Doran...

[TigerLynx]

NCW’s facial expressions during the Viper/Mountain fight were excellent.  When it looked like Oberyn might win, Jaime exchanged a look with Tyrion that only lasted a couple of seconds, but it said everything.

I love Charles Dance, but I’m looking forward to Tywin dying.

The only interest I have in Dany’s SL is if the dragons put in an appearance.

[dragonsbite]

I loved Sansa's "bird dress" at the end. But it doesn't call to mind falcons or mockingbirds. More like crows or ravens, especially with the bluish sheen on the feathers. Mockingbirds are mostly shades of grey. Falcons also tend to be grey or brownish.  

 

(But perhaps people associate black feathers with falcons or mockingbirds? I definitely don't. I see mockingbirds all the time, as they are the official bird of my home state.)

 

So, maybe it's simply a black dress for mourning. And I agree, she altered one of Lysa's dresses.

Edited June 3, 2014 by dragonsbite

[Tryangle]

I will give a hell yeah if they have Stannis coming to the wall this season. His character needs so quality action pronto.

 

I think we'll see both next episode, both the Ygritte death, and Stannis saves the day. Maybe season finale gets Jon named LC.

 

The whole Missandei/Grey Worm thing was so tedious. Do they even speak in the books? I can't believe after two weeks they wasted nearly a quarter of an episode on bland pretty characters that no-one cares about. I ended up FFing their scenes.

Saying that it seems a lot of people 'ship' them now.

 

I think some of the expansion of Missandei's role is related to them not having Irri/Doreah/Jhiqui - with only one handmaiden/assistant to Dany, the show can expand on her backstory and flesh her out a bit (no pun intended). But yeah, the "uh oh, who's going to die" flags have been raised on her and Grey Worm.

[Hanahope]

My unsullied husband thought the Mountain was probably dead or dying and that it was a tie, and what would that mean for Tyrion? But since Tywin declared Tyrion the loser, he figured Tywin wasn't going to play by the rules anyway, assuming there were any rules.

 

I think Tyrion lost because Oberyn died before Gregor did.  At least, that is what I would expect Tywin to say.

[BookEater]

Poor Oberyn, that was the stuff of nightmares, still I couldn't help thinking of every time a villain starts monologing giving the hero time to get away. Even knowing the ending all I was thinking was, stop smiling at Ellaria, and finish him off!

 

I have to admit I'm really liking the Sansa, changes. I remember when Littlefinger, told her everyone was a better liar than her and it looks like she was paying attention. She didn't tell some fantastic lie, she twisted the truth and played to her strengths. I'm hoping the reason D&D did away with deceiving the Vale Lords was because she's got more important material to get to. I never would've thought Sansa's storyline would be my favourite at the beginning of the season.

 

 

 

I think we'll see both next episode, both the Ygritte death, and Stannis saves the day. Maybe season finale gets Jon named LC.

 

 

I think some of the expansion of Missandei's role is related to them not having Irri/Doreah/Jhiqui - with only one handmaiden/assistant to Dany, the show can expand on her backstory and flesh her out a bit (no pun intended). But yeah, the "uh oh, who's going to die" flags have been raised on her and Grey Worm.

 

I seem to remember a mention of a random Unsullied paying a whore to hold him in the books. I think we're going to get a version of this with Missandei and Grey Worm.

[Pete Martell]

I agree with Maum in that I don't really feel that Dany made an epic mistake in banishing Jorah and basically feel I understand her reasons even if I do feel that book!Dany would have forgiven him. If Dany is thinking that Jorah only came to her side and stopped spying because he's in love with her, what is going to keep him loyal and content with serving her now that she's ready to have a love life again? His jealousy of Daario was obvious IMO, so I can see Dany wondering if Jorah could ever be tempted into betraying her again especially if his feelings end up getting hurt by her openly preferring some other guy.

 

I don't necessarily think it was a mistake either - I think it was a very difficult decision all around - but Emilia saying it was a mistake makes me wonder if that's where the material is going to go. That this is the start of Dany's downfall. I hope not, as I'm not comfortable with blaming her problems on her not keeping Jorah around (and things like out of control dragons have nothing to do with Jorah...), but I don't know.

 

I don't see it as a mistake in of itself as much as a mistake in where it will lead to for Dany if she becomes more paranoid and shuts everyone out. 

I think we'll see both next episode, both the Ygritte death, and Stannis saves the day. Maybe season finale gets Jon named LC.

 

I think some of the expansion of Missandei's role is related to them not having Irri/Doreah/Jhiqui - with only one handmaiden/assistant to Dany, the show can expand on her backstory and flesh her out a bit (no pun intended). But yeah, the "uh oh, who's going to die" flags have been raised on her and Grey Worm.

 

I just hope they won't cut down Stannis' role as they often tend to do.

 

I'm dreading Ygritte's death. I know it's coming but Rose Leslie always breaks my heart in those emotional moments. I hope they will give the scene room to breathe and not cut it too short, as they have several times with emotional moments this season.

 

I liked the Missandei/Grey Worm material, mostly just because the show has such misery and this is a brief respite, and also because the show has so few POC characters that I am glad they aren't just using Missandei and Grey Worm as Dany's servants. I do think this material would have been suited to another episode.

[Tippi]

Where were they taking little Robin?  Wouldn't he spill the beans wherever he goes that Alayne is Sansa Stark?  And I must be the only one who thought that Sansa's transformation at the end could have meant that she and Littlefinger had become more than just friends.  Sophie has the presence and beauty to be a player, but I've always been taken a little out of her scenes by her voice.  Most British actors and actresses have such mellifluous voices that they use as instruments to great effect.  Sophie's voice has seemed to me a little amateurish, but I think that works for her now in her deceptions.  It's a nice contrast between the guileless girl front she is putting on and the player she is coming to be.

 

I don't know what is in store now for Ellaria.  If this was the end for her I'll miss Indira Varma.  She is such a sultry beauty.  I liked her chemistry with Pedro.  How many couples do we have on the show that seem to genuinely love each other?  Ned and Cat-kaput.  Dany and Drogo-kaput.  Now Oberyn and Ellaria-kaput.  I do like to have some romance!

[Haleth]

How many couples do we have on the show that seem to genuinely love each other? Ned and Cat-kaput. Dany and Drogo-kaput. Now Oberyn and Ellaria-kaput. I do like to have some romance!

Jaime and Cersei. ;) Edited June 3, 2014 by Haleth

[RedBaron]

I really hope that the show doesn't keep doing these close-but-no-cigar near meetings of Starks --  I assume Arya will leave the Vale now without seeing Sansa.  They have had closer run-ins on the show than what happens in the books.  I can see that getting old quickly.

 

I also think show Sansa is much more interesting as a character than book Sansa.  I'm hoping that her growth is based on discussions between the writers and GRRM and can be seen as a clue for future books.

[magdalene]

 

Jaime and Cersei. ;)

IMO, the bloom is definitely off that romance.

 

Personally I have always believed Jorah was an invaluable adviser to the rather immature Dany. Things are bound to go downhill with his banishment.

[Pete Martell]

I loved seeing my non-book-reader friends react to that ending. They were floored and crushed. Literally.

 

I guess the showrunners had to make Oberyn's character a little larger than life - so that his death would make an impact. And it did.

 

But other elements in the episode dragged. The pace seems off for a couple of episodes now. Like something essential is missing. I can't find the magic in the series anymore and I'm wondering what is happening.

 

The show has become like Walking Dead in that the individual scenes often feel stronger than the story as a whole. 

 

I think part of it is that a lot of characters just haven't been doing anything. They wander around in comedy (Brienne) or musing on life (Arya), waiting for something to happen. And some story choices make characters who should have been doing things all season long (like Jon and a buildup of the fight at the Wall) instead twiddle their thumbs. I don't understand the choice to have Ygritte pop up early and then vanish for 5-6 episodes.

 

I appreciate the choice to have something big happen early in the season, but I sometimes feel like the season ended after that episode, and the horrifically done aftermath in Breaker of Chains. The Tyrells in particular have all but vanished.

 

It's weird, because Dany's story is the one most often criticized for nothing happening, yet if I look over this season, I can see a clear progression from first episode to last. 

 

I can't say that for a number of other stories this season.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Pete Martell

[that one guy]

I don't think there's any way for Dany to know she's making a mistake. She can't trust Jorah anymore, and doesn't have the background information we do about Varys' true intentions or the connection to Illyrio. She also doesn't know that Ned stepped down as Hand rather than take part in the assassination ploy. As far as she knows, Jorah pretended to be her friend while passing on intelligence to people who wanted her dead. She just doesn't understand how the game is played, it's literally foreign to her at this point. Not understanding how mortal enemies can be potential allies is the same mistake she made when she indiscriminately crucified the Masters of Mereen.

 

I love the character of Dany and the Mereen stuff in the books, and Clarke has done pretty well with it on screen - but recently I've been imagining what it would be like if, say, Tatiana Maislany from Orphan Black had the role.

 

The moment I'm dreading is approaching. I just can't forgive Tyrion for the murder of Shae even in the books, and TV Shae is just so much more sympathetic. But even if she weren't - killing your ex-girlfriend is just unacceptable. Intimate violence is just a lower place than war or mob-style "just business" violence, which is where Game of Thrones lives most of the time. Unless they give him more cause, it's just a heinous act with which he abdicates his role as moral center of the show. He escapes from prison, and rather than being happy about it, I end up wanting him dead. I didn't catch any evidence that Shae was ever a spy for Tyrion, it seemed like she was just trying to stay alive. What did Tyrion expect? Was she to stay loyal and be killed by Tywin? Or not, and be killed by Tyrion? Fuck that, her actions were justified and his weren't, to put it mildily. I hope the show finds another way... 

[benteen]

Barristan did tell Dany in the books that Ned opposed Robert's plan to kill her but that made no difference to Dany.  Barristan disapproved.

[GleamingMist]

I like the actor who portrays Roose Bolton, he seems to fit the book description of him well. I find him oddly sexy too. Something about his quiet nature and steely blue eyes.

 

Thank god it's not just me!  His voice makes me melt like butter...

[Pete Martell]

Thank god it's not just me!  His voice makes me melt like butter...

 

Not just you, definitely. He's a very handsome and charismatic man. I first noticed it in the Red Wedding episode, which made me feel horribly ashamed...

 

The show's casting people seem to have some sort of daddy fetish, as they repeatedly cast men who are much more attractive than the characters likely should be.

[jjjmoss]

I think Ramsay's pretty hot, but that's largely because of his role on Misfits.

 

I don't find any of the old people on this show hot.

[lawless]

I wish we'd seen Dany maybe subtlety clenching one of her hands or some other discreet sort of body language to show how hard the moment was for her.

I watched the scene again, and I think part of the problem is that the camera moves to a very tight close up of her face.  Initially you see her seated, but then the camera moves in close to her face, and it gets Jorah from a weird angle as well.  The actress may have been doing things through body language to communicate her inner turmoil, but it's lost because the camera moved so close to her face toward the end, and seemed to catch her from below.  We'll never know, but it might have come across differently if the shot had been different.

 

Thank god it's not just me!  His voice makes me melt like butter...

He and the actor who plays Jorah have amazing voices.  Roose's voice is very deep.  He speaks very softly, but ever so authoritatively all the same.

The moment I'm dreading is approaching. I just can't forgive Tyrion for the murder of Shae even in the books, and TV Shae is just so much more sympathetic. But even if she weren't - killing your ex-girlfriend is just unacceptable. Intimate violence is just a lower place than war or mob-style "just business" violence, which is where Game of Thrones lives most of the time.

I'm with you on this.  I have been hoping against hope that the show deviates from the Book and merges Shae with Tysha, such that Tyrion doesn't kill her.  He doesn't see her again in King's Landing, and finds out somehow that she was threatened/tortured into testifying against him.  He kills Tywin (that has to happen storywise, as much as I enjoy Charles Dance's portrayal of Tywin), and when he travels to Essos wondering where whores go, he's actually looking for Shae.  Would this be a total change of Tyrion's story trajectory?  In a way, but he can still be extremely bitter about everything that happened to him without actually murdering Shae.  If she was changed on the Show into a character who seemed to genuinely have feelings for him, then why not change the rest of it too?

 

That this is the start of Dany's downfall. I hope not, as I'm not comfortable with blaming her problems on her not keeping Jorah around (and things like out of control dragons have nothing to do with Jorah...), but I don't know.

I think the point of the whole Mereen story is Dany learning how difficult it is to actually rule, and particularly to rule a people who don't want you.  Well, plus I guess the author just got stuck there.  But I also think Dany was in an extremely difficult position regarding Jorah.  He began their relationship as a spy, and did things that put her and her unborn child in incredible danger.  In Jorah's defense, he's also her most devoted adviser and follower -- he just is -- and I think they both had something of a rebirth when she walked out of that funeral pyre unburnt and with dragons.  But Jorah never told her about the spying himself, which might have made a difference, and also, Barristan knew about it and exposed Jorah.  He expected Dany to order Jorah's death most likely.  By then, others in her inner circle may have known as well.  Dany is probably also coming to realize that Queens are people too, and susceptible to the pressure to meet the expectations of others. 

 

But this is exactly what Tywin wanted, and Jorah was correct in pointing that out, even as it was too late.  I agree that the moment, as filmed, lacked a lot of the punch I felt it should have had, though.

[GreyBunny]

But this is exactly what Tywin wanted, and Jorah was correct in pointing that out, even as it was too late.  I agree that the moment, as filmed, lacked a lot of the punch I felt it should have had, though.

 

I'm willing to give a lot of acting choices a pass for this episode because I think it was directed poorly and, in the case of Oberyn's fight scene, also edited badly.  

[ElizaD]

Roose is played by a good actor, but Ramsay is such a disappointment. He's just a cartoon villain and always an actor making faces, not a character who'd be genuinely unsettling in his sadism. It's disappointing after three seasons of watching Jack Gleeson make Joffrey's vicious glee look so natural.

 

I didn't catch any evidence that Shae was ever a spy for Tyrion, it seemed like she was just trying to stay alive. What did Tyrion expect? Was she to stay loyal and be killed by Tywin? Or not, and be killed by Tyrion? Fuck that, her actions were justified and his weren't, to put it mildily.

 

There's going to be such an unfortunate contrast between Tyrion parting with Bronn on friendly terms because his bro shouldn't be expected to risk his life fighting the Mountain and Tyrion killing Shae because she was captured and did what was necessary to save her own life (lied at the trial, had sex with Tywin). Book Tyrion wasn't even thinking of the lie, it was his sexual humiliation that made him kill her. When Show Tyrion does that, it's going to come out of nowhere because GOT has completely removed the capacity for cruelty and issues with women that made Shae's murder in character for Tyrion; I'm afraid it could come across even worse on TV than in the books where Tyrion wasn't expected to be a saint who automatically does the right thing, ending up as "of course the good guy snapped and killed his cheating ex, she deserved it."

[Pete Martell]

 

But this is exactly what Tywin wanted, and Jorah was correct in pointing that out, even as it was too late.  I agree that the moment, as filmed, lacked a lot of the punch I felt it should have had, though.

 

I think part of the problem is we've barely seen her interact with Jorah most of this season (or even most of last season). I wish they'd had a longer scene here, and we'd seen more of her reaction. I'm not sure why it was so truncated and perfunctory, even if the brief bit we did see was powerful.

 

I agree that I'd rather they not have him kill off Shae. I'm so wary of people cheering because she got what she deserved or she was just a "ho."