S14.E06: Optimism

[Bobcatkitten]

So while watching I enjoyed it. I was confused some but I really liked the pairing of Dean and Jack. Much more than I thought I would. The zombie-loving storyline could have been fleshed out so much more and stood on its own as a whole episode. Instead we got boring scenes in a pickup with Sam and Charlie.

Dean and Jack played well off each other and I loved that Dean had a great plan and was teaching Jack along the way. The pie and Christo references were gold. So was old man. I was surprised that Harper knew and was in on it so the twist was cool. 

On Sam and Charlie I found the fly-guy thing so weird. And what was up with Sam's absolute insistence that Not!Charlie stay a hunter? Why can't she live her own life and maybe go settle down and do something else? It felt weird and forced. I also thought the case was sloppy - why the heck would they leave that fly body behind for someone to find? And if they knew there was a fly family why didn't they stay to try to kill them? The fidget spinner scene was delightful (though to be honest have we ever seen Sam interested in that kind of thing or showing glee in any way over the seasons? It seemed more Jared than Sam). 

Overall, I don't like separating the brothers and having multiple storylines per episode. I guess this is the new normal but I miss my Supernatural. 

And yes, I get it, more time for J2 with family. And I was on board for that by reducing the episode count and giving them almost a month more off. But I think it's too much to also cut their filming time on the remaining episodes. It changes the very essence of the show in a way that I would prefer they just wrap up the series instead. 

[fishpan]

3 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

So Dabb's robbing ideas from Dark Angel as well as Buffy. Smooth. 

Yeah I automatically thought that and yet Jensen wasn't anywhere near when they mentioned that rip off.

 

Also, I get it, it is a US show.  But taking out the tech of North America (which seems to be where the dialogue is taking us) doesn't mean that the rest of the world crumbles.  Hell, Revolution at least made it clear that the whole planet's tech went.  But the way Charlie talked it was over North America so America went.   Now I know in terms of a lot of things it mean catastrophe sure but computers/infrastructure Nebraska not working doesn't hit water in southern Serbia.  They showed that in Dark Angel - the rest of the world didn't crumble when the US went down and the way Charlie talked the angel death squads didn't move in until the people started tearing themselves apart.  So if all it took was a single EMP bomb to cause 'everyone' to starve and become mobs within a few weeks then well it makes me think that apoco world was screwed up in a lot more ways than we think.

 

And what is that insistance Charlie 'stays' a hunter.  Why not just let her live her life if she wants, but ask her to make sure she keeps in touch???? 

Edited November 16, 2018 by fishpan

[Bergamot]

4 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Once again, Dean came across as a far better leader, strategist, and mentor than Sam. If the writers hadn't so clearly demonstrated that they have no grasp of subtlety or subtext, I would have sworn that this was done on purpose. Sam sometimes exhibits this Nice Guy(tm) Syndrome where he (and the writers) believes that he's being wise and helpful, but in reality he comes across as a condescending know-it-all. His attempt to talk a stripper into going to nursing school, mentioned in 13.05, was supposed to be charming but made Sam appear to assume that he knew what was better for a woman than she knew herself. Same case with Charlie, here. Stop telling her what she's supposed to want, "Chief"...

Yes, I actually enjoyed Dean's interactions with Jack, and I think he does make a good mentor for him. The problem, as you mentioned, is the lack of the Michael!Dean story, except for its use as something else for Dean to feel guilty about. I don't think it should be too much to ask that there be a Dean story that is about Dean, and not Dean as a supporting character to someone else's story.

I also agree that Sam the control freak is out of control. I wish I could believe that the writers want us to see that, rather than finding him admirable. His little "people helping people" speech to Charlie, though, really makes me think the writers want us to think Sam is admirable and right.

One of the oddest moments, I thought, was at the very beginning, when Sam takes off in order to meet up with Charlie while Dean is gone overnight, without even sending Dean a text to let him know. On the other hand, Dean is required to check in with Sam (because we all know how Sam would react if he didn't) before he goes anywhere with Jack. Even if it was just a courtesy to keep Sam informed, why didn't that work both ways?  And what did Sam mean by "Just you guys?"?  Does he think Dean is incapable of looking after Jack on a hunt, although he is okay with Jack going on hunts with Cas? Or does he just not like people deciding on their own what they are going to do?

 

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

I think if Charlie had been planning on something like that, Sam wouldn't have tried to talk her out of it. Instead, she seemed to be planning on running away and closing herself off from the world.

First of all, Sam was dismayed to learn that Charlie wanted this to be her "last case" before Charlie even said that she might go live on a mountaintop somewhere. Second, are the only two choices available to Charlie either living on a mountaintop by herself or being a hunter? There are other ways to live your life in which you can help people. And if Sam was just worried about Charlie cutting herself off from people, he could encourage her not to do that, without telling her she needed to be a hunter to be connected to the world. And third, as Charlie so succinctly informed Sam, it is her life, and she gets to decide what to do with it. Maybe if Sam was her best friend, and knew her inside and out, and as a result he really believed it was a mistake for her to stop hunting -- then he could give his opinion. But he doesn't even know this Charlie; she is basically a stranger to him. So sorry, I don't think Sam's actions here can be papered over as concern for Charlie needing other people in her life.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, Bergamot said:

I also agree that Sam the control freak is out of control. I wish I could believe that the writers want us to see that, rather than finding him admirable. His little "people helping people" speech to Charlie, though, really makes me think the writers want us to think Sam is admirable and right.

I wanted to punch Sam last night (yes, I know he probably wouldn't even feel a punch from little old me).  But, while I like this Charlie better than other Charlie, I kind of hope she gets killed on her next hunt, because that would be way more SAm's fault than other Charlie's death.   Just shut up and let her do what she wants. You don't even know her as she kept pointing out to you ad nauseam.

[catrox14]

54 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Sam interested in that kind of thing or showing glee in any way over the seasons? It seemed more Jared than Sam)

 

34 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

And what did Sam mean by "Just you guys?"?  Does he think Dean is incapable of looking after Jack on a hunt, although he is okay with Jack going on hunts with Cas? Or does he just not like people deciding on

Thebinly reason I can see for Sam to hold that opinion is that he thinks Dean isn't right and he thinks Jack would be in danger. More tell than show and very little tell at that.

[ILoveReading]

52 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I also agree that Sam the control freak is out of control

This is why making Sam a leader is a dangerous thing.  Power goes to this head.  We saw it with Ruby and later when he believed he was God's chosen.  He couldn't even conceive of the notion that he might not be.   We've seen shades already where he is micromanging and controlling the AU hunters every move.  If we had better writers I would think they were trying to make Sam learn a lesson.   But I think, they really believe Sam is coming across as some kind of standard for leaders everywhere to follow.  That's why I know nothing will ever happen to Charlie.  I expect her to save the day down the line somewhere and her to thank Sam for convincing her to say.   I think they were trying to make Sam seem inspirational, but he came across as John.   He's also a hypocrite that he expects Dean to check in and clear things with him, but not vice versa.  I guess "Chief" doesn't have to answer to anyone.   Do as I say, not as I do, seems to be Sam's management style. 

This is also why Dean should never ever confide or make himself seem vulnerable in front of Sam.  Sam will use it against every time and act like he's weak.  For me, its further proof Sam doesn't have respect for Dean or his  hunting abilities.  "Just you two?"  Shut up Sam. 

52 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

So sorry, I don't think Sam's actions here can be papered over as concern for Charlie needing other people in her life.

I agree.  It came across as control.  

I admit I kind of tuned out on the Sam/Charlie scenes.  They were kind of a snooze fest.  So when she talked about the tech stuff, I thought it was Sam and Dean not being born that caused everything.  That they weren't there to stop the Lucifer and Michael fight?  After watching that Marionette fight, I have a hard time believing that a Michael/Lucifer fight was powerful enough to zap all the electroncis.  But there might have been more of an explantion that I missed. 

I find Sam just doesn't really connect with people.  Even with the bunker hunters he doesn't seem to know anything about them other than their name.  Last week, during a celebration none of them even looked in "Chief's" direction or even thanked him.  It makes me wonder if Sam ever talked to them on a personal level.   Does he know their stories, their strengthens, their weaknesses (something very important for leaders to know), did he guilt them into looking for Dean, even though he wasn't their fight?  Do any of them want to go home?  Do they have friends, families left over in apocalypse world?  Not that I particularly care about any of this stuff but its just another reason why Sam comes across as playing leader rather than being one.  They look like paid flunkies hired to give him authority.  

Edited November 16, 2018 by ILoveReading

[fishpan]

37 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I find Sam just doesn't really connect with people.  Even with the bunker hunters he doesn't seem to know anything about them other than their name.  Last week, during a celebration none of them even looked in "Chief's" direction or even thanked him.

Hopefully that is why they are having Sam so desperate to have Charlie hunt, especially as he kept mixing this Charlie and the other Charlie up as well as taking alt Bobby's words so much to heart the other week.  He's familiar with them, wants them near - so wanting this Charlie still to hunt (though she shouldn't need to) not with the others and can't you know connect?  I know it is a stretch but the way they have Sam flailing around as Chief I am trying to read something into it. 

 

Though to be honest outside wanting to get Michael why should any one of those nameless lot want to hunt?  They've just been in a war and now in a land that isn't.  You'd think they'd want some sodding peace if they could have it.  Shouldn't most of them want to be like Charlie - you know find a mountain and heal?

Edited November 16, 2018 by fishpan

[Aeryn13]

I thought this was okay. The Dean/Jack dynamic worked well enough and for once it was helpful to Jack without being super-mollycoddling. I guess Dean is the only character who can do that. 

I appreciated that Dean wasn`t made to look incompetent. Jack is awkward, naive and literal enough that when Dean calls him "kid" during their ruse, he comes back with "old man". So this didn`t strike me as the usual dig at Dean. And crazy Harper looked friendly and perky when Dean entered, before he cornered her so it wasn`t her being "eww, ugly old dude" from the start. That makes all the difference. 

Dean calling Sam to let him know he is on a hunt with Jack strikes me as good communication and would have been perfectly harmless before the writers went on a leader pimpage quest with Sam. What made it weird was the "really? you two? I can send in more troops" reaction. Where the hell did that come from? 

Didn`t like the "talk to Sam about getting you on more hunts" line at the end but it could be read as Dean talking to dispatch about Jack entering a roster. 

Still, they can`t help themselves from acting as if Sam calls all the shots now in the bunker. And that is not a good role for him. I mean, at least Charlie never bowed down to him so there is that. But giving her a guilting-speech on the glory of the hunting life? Seriously, Sam? Your Season 1-recently head would probably explode from this.    

Dean`s leadership/mentoring style, as seen with Jack, just comes across as more natural and organic. 

I did like Jack acknowledging his stupidity. He was the power player who could have taken both Lucy and Michael out and he stood there and let his power be taken away. Never thought they would call that out.

Overall, with my standards with the show right now, I consider this a win.

Am I still annoyed that Michael!Dean was relegated to a few short scenes in two episodes and ONE! flashback? Yes, that was lousy and even less the very little I expected. Especially since they have time for Chief!Sam pimping in every single episode or for Jack`s woes here but if the show gives you lemons, at least Dean mans a little lemonade stand on his own.  

[Mulva]

4 hours ago, hunenka said:

Curiously though, Sam seemed really worried and uncertain about Dean and Jack going on a hunt, even going as far as to suggest sending some other hunters to work the case. So he trusts Maggie to hunt on her own, but Dean watching over Jack on a hunt is too dangerous?

Because he didn't want Jack's inexperience to get his brother killed?  Because he learned his lesson from the Maggie fiasco?

[Pondlass1]

28 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Overall, with my standards with the show right now, I consider this a win.

Me too.  I have to admit I wasn't tempted to pick up the iPad, but sat back with a glass of wine and enjoyed the episode. It was ok, although Dick's directional techniques are a bit heavyhanded.  I'm surprised we didn't have the circling cameras.   

Under Dabb's tenure hunting has become the fun thing to do.  I'm sure there'll be unions, a pension and hopefully health insurance soon for poor Jack's consumption.  Hunting is no longer the lonely, dangerous, tragic existence it was for young Dean and Sam.  And it can all be learned overnight.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Pondlass1

[Myrelle]

16 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Am I still annoyed that Michael!Dean was relegated to a few short scenes in two episodes and ONE! flashback? Yes, that was lousy and even less the very little I expected. Especially since they have time for Chief!Sam pimping in every single episode or for Jack`s woes here but if the show gives you lemons, at least Dean mans a little lemonade stand on his own.

I'm still so pissed about this right here and I'm not going to get over it any time soon.

I was hopeful with the Then segment of this one, but then we got the actual episode.

21 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I did like Jack acknowledging his stupidity. He was the power player who could have taken both Lucy and Michael out and he stood there and let his power be taken away. Never thought they would call that out.

Yes. I was surprised by that, too.

 

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

Yes, I actually enjoyed Dean's interactions with Jack, and I think he does make a good mentor for him. The problem, as you mentioned, is the lack of the Michael!Dean story, except for its use as something else for Dean to feel guilty about. I don't think it should be too much to ask that there be a Dean story that is about Dean, and not Dean as a supporting character to someone else's story.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

Am I still annoyed that Michael!Dean was relegated to a few short scenes in two episodes and ONE! flashback?

And that one involved him getting his ass kicked by a teenage girl.

[Myrelle]

I know this site is wonky about quotes sometimes, so that quote was Aeryn's, just to keep things straight.

[Bergamot]

4 hours ago, hunenka said:

Curiously though, Sam seemed really worried and uncertain about Dean and Jack going on a hunt, even going as far as to suggest sending some other hunters to work the case. So he trusts Maggie to hunt on her own, but Dean watching over Jack on a hunt is too dangerous?

 

37 minutes ago, Mulva said:

Because he didn't want Jack's inexperience to get his brother killed?  Because he learned his lesson from the Maggie fiasco?

But Sam doesn't care if Jack's inexperience gets Castiel killed? Or does he think Cas is a better hunter than Dean?

As for Sam "learning his lesson" from what happened with Maggie, I will believe it when we see him acknowledge this on screen. All we saw was Mary telling him he was a natural and was doing a great job, Dean being all supportive and complimentary, and AU Bobby sincerely apologizing for criticizing Sam's decision about Maggie. Why would he think he needed to change his approach to anything?

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

As for Sam "learning his lesson" from what happened with Maggie, I will believe it when we see him acknowledge this on screen. All we saw was Mary telling him he was a natural and was doing a great job, Dean being all supportive and complimentary, and AU Bobby sincerely apologizing for criticizing Sam's decision about Maggie. Why would he think he needed to change his approach to anything?

Taking to Bitter Spoilers

[Bobcatkitten]

9 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

 

But Sam doesn't care if Jack's inexperience gets Castiel killed? Or does he think Cas is a better hunter than Dean?

As for Sam "learning his lesson" from what happened with Maggie, I will believe it when we see him acknowledge this on screen. All we saw was Mary telling him he was a natural and was doing a great job, Dean being all supportive and complimentary, and AU Bobby sincerely apologizing for criticizing Sam's decision about Maggie. Why would he think he needed to change his approach to anything?

Castiel has powers to protect himself I guess though it's hard to keep track of those.

[SueB]

On the EMP - it may be used by many but it's a good, science-based approach, to put us back into the early 1900's -- without the 1900's infrastructure.  I think it was the best way to cause immediate chaos without nuclear weapons.  And I think it's a good story point to discuss what happens to humanity when it's lost all it's creature comforts. Poor Kara/Cara (not sure of spelling). 

[Bobcatkitten]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

On the EMP - it may be used by many but it's a good, science-based approach, to put us back into the early 1900's -- without the 1900's infrastructure.  I think it was the best way to cause immediate chaos without nuclear weapons.  And I think it's a good story point to discuss what happens to humanity when it's lost all it's creature comforts. Poor Kara/Cara (not sure of spelling). 

OT but the book One Second After by William Forstchen is about this and is frightening and so good. 

[fishpan]

39 minutes ago, SueB said:

On the EMP - it may be used by many but it's a good, science-based approach, to put us back into the early 1900's -- without the 1900's infrastructure.  I think it was the best way to cause immediate chaos without nuclear weapons.  And I think it's a good story point to discuss what happens to humanity when it's lost all it's creature comforts. Poor Kara/Cara (not sure of spelling). 

The problem I have with it is because yes we have shows that show how an EMP in the atmosphere can cause chaos.  But the show doesn't make things clear how big the effects of the bomb was especially in a show that is US based.  Especially as there are bit of the world that have infrastructure that isn't that far from the 1900's.

Basically they need to be clearer about the war between Lucifer and Michael.  Because didn't Bobby say at one point when Michael and the angels showed up they thought they were on their side against Lucifer?  That makes it sound like Lucifer was out and about for a bit.  But Charlie says the EMP was the very beginning of the war?  What is it?

 

And yes I over think things.

Edited November 16, 2018 by fishpan

[tennisgurl]

You know what hit me watching this episode? I dont know why this show keeps killing off its supporting characters, when it clearly wants then around? Is it really just them trying to pull feelings out of an increasingly jaded audience? Its clearly not like the actors dont want to be on the show, as Charlie and Bobby AUs are still around, so why even bother killing the original people, who we might actually feel connected to, if you were just going to replace them with these other versions? Did they just realize they killed off too many people, and decided to backtrack? 

I did actually like a lot of this episode, mostly the Jack/Dean plot. Jack playing off of Dean is really pretty likable and cute (if you ignore how Jack was totally down to kill Dean if it meant getting Michael without even looking at other options), and I liked the case of the week a quite a lot. I didnt see Harper being a necromancer coming, and I hope that she comes back, especially with her crush on Jack. Maybe if Jack finally dies of consumption, they can call her in to bring him back? Yeah, she wants to bring him back as her lover/hit man, but its a start anyway! I thought the actress was really good as well, and she carried her scenes really well. The old man bit was hilarious as well. Poor Dean, we all know your still the sexy one!

The Charlie/Sam stuff was rather off to me though. Why is Sam so invested in AU Charlie being a hunter anyway? If she doesn't want to hunt anymore, and just live on her own, why not let her? Maybe if he was just trying to convince her not to be a hermit, I could understand that more (but, again, its her life!), but why would she want to be a hunter after everything she went through? Its not like they dont have enough hunters now, whats the big deal? As AU Charlie pointed out, she isnt the Charlie Sam knew, she had a totally different life. Sam is really letting his control freak tendencies out again, that doesn't bode well for Chief Sam. I did think that Felicia Day did a good job at showing the differences between AU Charlie and OG Charlie, and she did really well when she talked about losing her girlfriend in the other universe. And Sam and his fidget spinner was hilarious. 

I also thought the idea of an entire society of fly people living in their own isolated community, wearing all black bee keeper outfits, was kind of interesting, and makes me want to learn more about them. They seem like my kind of Extra. 

[tessathereaper]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

This was stupid and terrible.

Also, fuck you, Dabb and Yockey. You have the gall to have Jack use "Christo" but the boys haven't remembered to use it  for 13 fucking years.  That completely took me out of this if I wasn't already out because I don't fucking care about Jack and his crushes.  JFC. This was garbage from beginning to end save a few moments.  The music was awful and I kept thinking...what dumb show am I watching?

They really are trying to turn Sam into Dean and Jack into Cas. I don't find it endearing or cute when Cas isn't even present in the last what 3 episodes? Fuck you, show.  I kind of hate Jack now. 

I don't see Sam's relating to Charlie as "empathy".  I see it as self involved.

I will say though, that I'm relieved that Charlie remained a lesbian in the AU. And I also liked the idea that the war between Michael and Lucifer took out the AU's electronics. I actually found that 100% intriguing. 

Other than that, it was stupid IMO. A disappointing effort from Yockey and I am 100% convinced he didn't write this.

If Sam related to Charlie, he wouldn't have tried to emotionally blackmail her and guilt her to continue hunting.

[SueB]

Second watch comments:
- the no-commercial rewatch (via iTunes) is ALWAYS better for me, it just helps the episode flow

- RSJr tweeted out that the J's were conducting a master acting class.  I gotta say, he's right.  Jensen is seriously comedy gold in every scene.  But that scene with him playing bad cop and Jack playing hero was the best.  His face must have gone through 5 different reactions to the "Old Man" comment.  I LIKE that.  Because Dean KNOWS he's good looking, but when Jack used that line, it actually got Dean to thinking.  The quick check in the mirror was all the reassurance Dean needed.  It was a funny/sweet moment.  Jared's little goofy bit with the spinner was also fun.

- In general, I'd say the comedy of this episode makes this a highly rewatchable epsiode.  And the dialog was just right.  Jack's slightly panicked call with Dean was hilarious: "But if she is, I need to know everthing there is about sex. Go." Was such a great back and forth.  

- And I LOVED how clever Dean was in this hunt.  Takes a cue from Ms Snark-A-Lot plus the 'unlucky romantic' intel and set up that little scene with Harper.  Then he traps the zombie between two handcuffs.  Zombies are damn hard to slow down, that was a great idea.

- The manfly hunt was better the second time around.  And I finally caught on that he had all those car freshners in his briefcase (the Pinesol smell Sam talked about) in order to mask his stink when sitting on the park bench.  Also hilarious, that there were flystrips hanging all over the place.  Props to the prop department for really giving that place some detail.

- I REALLY like how this Charlie's voice is at a slightly lower register.  Closer to Dark Charlie.  I very much appreciated Felicia Day's non-bubbly acting.  And I want her to find THIS world's Cara.  How perfect that she baked cupcakes.  I like that detail. Also that she worked for RRE and Richard Roman was not eaten by a Leviathan and therefore just corporate evil vs evil evil. I wonder what happened to Old Frank Devereaux in that universe?

- After rewatching it, I realized Dean's "Sam's not going to like this." comment was an attempt at deterring Jack rather than deferrence.  And yes, on second watch, it's clear Dean "told" rather than "asked".  That's more consistent with their relationship.

- Also interesting to note was that Dean made an "overnight run" to Mary & Bobby's new setup.  I wonder why.  It's not like Mary can't get her own supplies.  Maybe checking on them to see they weren't in trouble?  IDK.

- The directing.  I LOVED the ticking clock of the THEN.  Even if this was mostly a light-hearted story, that "THEN" segment reminds us that there is a ticking time-bomb out there (Michael) and it's going to explode eventually. "Staying Alive" was so very well done along with the rapid interview segment. 

- Finally, I'm still not a fan of Sam pressuring Charlie to stick around.  If she sticks around, I'd rather she took over lore duties rather than go out hunting.  If she gets killed hunting, that's on Sam.  That's such a BAD IDEA (to kill Charlie again) and it throws Sam under the bus for something that feels out of character in the first place.  

[Ninamags]

10 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

The perky red head and her true love t̶̶a̶̶r̶̶a̶ Kara. Oh, how original, Not!Joss Whedon!Dabb.

I thought about that right away, too!!

9 hours ago, hunenka said:

17 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

After letting teenage girls go on hunts, Sam is now guilt-tripping people into staying in the hunter life.

What the hell is going on.

Curiously though, Sam seemed really worried and uncertain about Dean and Jack going on a hunt, even going as far as to suggest sending some other hunters to work the case. So he trusts Maggie to hunt on her own, but Dean watching over Jack on a hunt is too dangerous?

Well, obviously, he cares more about Dean and Jack than some practical stranger. So yes, he worries. 

[tessathereaper]

21 minutes ago, Ninamags said:

I thought about that right away, too!!

Well, obviously, he cares more about Dean and Jack than some practical stranger. So yes, he worries. 

Nah, that doesn't really work.  If all things were equal yes.  But we're talking wet behind the ears Maggie with almost no experience at all being sent out ALONE and basically Dean Best Hunter there is and Jack, who isn't completely unexperienced even if he is missing his grace.  Why would he be so worried?  There's no reason for it.

[AwesomO4000]

35 minutes ago, SueB said:

- Finally, I'm still not a fan of Sam pressuring Charlie to stick around.  If she sticks around, I'd rather she took over lore duties rather than go out hunting.  If she gets killed hunting, that's on Sam.  That's such a BAD IDEA (to kill Charlie again) and it throws Sam under the bus for something that feels out of character in the first place.  

Shades of season 8 for me... I entirely expect it to happen and will be pleasantly surprised if it - or something similar - doesn't happen. The set up in this episode just seems way too Chekov's gun for it not to happen.

I've seen comments concerning Sam's "control issues" and turning into someone who needs to control everyone and everything. I didn't really buy it then - back in early season 5 when they were trying to sell it - and I wouldn't buy it now... at least not as an organic thing. And if this all turns into some kind of lesson for Sam that I don't think he really even needs in the first place (if he was acting like Sam to begin with), I'm going to be really annoyed and consider giving up this show for good. I came close in season 8 and 9... third strike and I'm out.

2 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Nah, that doesn't really work.  If all things were equal yes.  But we're talking wet behind the ears Maggie with almost no experience at all being sent out ALONE and basically Dean Best Hunter there is and Jack, who isn't completely unexperienced even if he is missing his grace.  Why would he be so worried?  There's no reason for it.

Because awesome hunter aside, when Dean is feeling guilty or off, he sometimes tends to take more risks. (Like taking on the mark of Cain). Sam does the same. (See flashbacks from season 4). And Jack might need more protecting without powers and might not know to talk Dean out of taking unnecessary risks like Sam likely would. The worry might not be warranted, but that's likely where it comes from, in my opinion.

It doesn't have to do with Dean's abilities, but with Dean's state of mind.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

It doesn't have to do with Dean's abilities, but with Dean's state of mind.

That still means he thinks Dean can`t hack it because he can`t be professional enough on a random hunt. It`s unflattering either way.

Quote

Shades of season 8 for me... I entirely expect it to happen and will be pleasantly surprised if it - or something similar - doesn't happen. The set up in this episode just seems way too Chekov's gun for it not to happen.

I've seen comments concerning Sam's "control issues" and turning into someone who needs to control everyone and everything. I didn't really buy it then - back in early season 5 when they were trying to sell it - and I wouldn't buy it now... at least not as an organic thing. And if this all turns into some kind of lesson for Sam that I don't think he really even needs in the first place (if he was acting like Sam to begin with), I'm going to be really annoyed and consider giving up this show for good. I came close in season 8 and 9... third strike and I'm out.

I don`t think you have to worry. It`s very clear they mean to paint the rosiest picture of Sam as the best, most inspirational leader and his terriblness at delegating and control freak issues are clearly not to be seen as such but indeed as caring and selfless. In short a sainted leader. The show couldn`t be more obvious about that. Last episode proved that noone is even allowed to call him out on his mistakes since he isn`t supposed to be making any.

I just happen to find this so annoyingly over the top and mostly all tell, it is a gigantic turn-off.   

Also, Charlie is IMO very safe. They got raked over the coals for killing off the character the first time. Now they found a lame loophole to bring her back in some form. No way in hell will they kill that version off. 

Edited November 16, 2018 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

13 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

It doesn't have to do with Dean's abilities, but with Dean's state of mind.

If Sam had been paying attention, Dean's state of mind isn't really that bad.  He was a little off kilter in ep 3.  But 4, 5, and 6 he was fine.  Staying his room seemed more about the extra hunters than Michael.  He's not drinking excessively, or out of control.  He's coming out of his room more, lately  Last ep Dean did most of the heavy lifting, despite what Dean said.  Unless, Sam believes his own press, (that he's doing everything on hunts) and can't see what is right in front of him, Dean's been kind of zen.  As Jody, said maybe hunting is what he needs.  He's even following Sam's rules.  Something Sam isn't doing himself.   It is coming across very much as if he does't trust Dean.

[juppschmitz]

My picture was really bad - did anyone catch the address Harper wrote on the letter? Jack Smith, Lebanon? 

Well, that's one letter that won't arrive.

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

If Sam had been paying attention, Dean's state of mind isn't really that bad. 

Yep. Shades of S10 when Cas and Sam kept saying how out of control Dean was, how he was 'getting worse', etc., etc., when he wasn't - not until Charlie got herself killed and then he went off the rails. Dean would have every reason to be messed up right now - but unless they are going to actually allow him the trauma and the focus and the on-screen time to show it, don't even try telling me that. So yeah, if they are going to use Dean's state of mind as an excuse for Commander Sam to oversee everything, they can eff off.

Edited November 16, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[juppschmitz]

And man, but the music really grated on my nerves. Maybe Ed Wood really is Richard Speight's idol.

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Shades of season 8 for me... I entirely expect it to happen and will be pleasantly surprised if it - or something similar - doesn't happen. The set up in this episode just seems way too Chekov's gun for it not to happen.

I've seen comments concerning Sam's "control issues" and turning into someone who needs to control everyone and everything. I didn't really buy it then - back in early season 5 when they were trying to sell it - and I wouldn't buy it now... at least not as an organic thing. And if this all turns into some kind of lesson for Sam that I don't think he really even needs in the first place (if he was acting like Sam to begin with), I'm going to be really annoyed and consider giving up this show for good. I came close in season 8 and 9... third strike and I'm out.

Because awesome hunter aside, when Dean is feeling guilty or off, he sometimes tends to take more risks. (Like taking on the mark of Cain). Sam does the same. (See flashbacks from season 4). And Jack might need more protecting without powers and might not know to talk Dean out of taking unnecessary risks like Sam likely would. The worry might not be warranted, but that's likely where it comes from, in my opinion.

It doesn't have to do with Dean's abilities, but with Dean's state of mind.

As of late, aside from some guilt, Dean's state of mind has seemed fine.  It's not unlike Season 4 for example or Season 10 before Charlie was killed - Dean's got a bad state of mind he's taking risks he's being violent, he's off, he's weak, wah wah wah - except Dean's behaving in a more sane way than pretty much anyone else.

So yeah I don't really see the need for it on Sam's part considering it appears to be a fairly straightforward hunt.  

 

Quote

If Sam had been paying attention, Dean's state of mind isn't really that bad.  He was a little off kilter in ep 3.  But 4, 5, and 6 he was fine.  Staying his room seemed more about the extra hunters than Michael.  He's not drinking excessively, or out of control.  He's coming out of his room more, lately  Last ep Dean did most of the heavy lifting, despite what Dean said.  Unless, Sam believes his own press, (that he's doing everything on hunts) and can't see what is right in front of him, Dean's been kind of zen.  As Jody, said maybe hunting is what he needs.  He's even following Sam's rules.  Something Sam isn't doing himself.   It is coming across very much as if he does't trust Dean.

What you already said. :)

Edited November 16, 2018 by tessathereaper

[devlin]

The tried and true method of pair another actor with Jensen and that actor’s character becomes more interesting. As many have said Jensen’s generous acting style gives them something to play off.

[mertensia]

Charlie et alia may not know if other parts of the world got EMP attacked or not.  How could they?

[Casseiopeia]

6 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

My picture was really bad - did anyone catch the address Harper wrote on the letter? Jack Smith, Lebanon? 

Well, that's one letter that won't arrive.

It was C/O Post Office.  Maybe the guys check their mail there occasionally.  

[SueB]

6 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

It was C/O Post Office.  Maybe the guys check their mail there occasionally.  

With how tiny Lebanon is, if Sam or Dean took in Jack with them one time and introduced him by name to the postal worker, I'd bet it'd get to him.  They got a letter from Eileen -- I presume it was Lebanon where they keep a box.

[MysteryGuest]

Just finished watching the episode.  I liked it a lot.  I was glad to see Jack back.  All we need now is Cas, and TFW is back in business...if only.  I never got the impression that Dean was "asking" permission from Sam to hunt with Jack.  I think they've all been concerned about Jack not being ready to hunt, and he's family to them, so it seemed perfectly normal to me for them to talk about it.  Cas isn't the most experienced hunter either, so I'm guessing when he's out training Jack, they're not sent on difficult hunts.  At least that's my impression.  

I do like this Charlie.  She's different than old Charlie, but in a good way.  As much as I always loved Bobby, new Bobby sort of annoys me and I'm pretty sure it's because he's not old Bobby.  But I don't feel the same way about Charlie.  It is strange that Sam would try so hard to keep her in the hunting life, but then his opinion of hunting has changed over the years.  And with Michael on the loose, he may feel they need all of the quality hunters they can get.

I am curious as to what's going on with Jack.  When we were first shown that he was sick, I briefly thought that he had done something with the necklace from that witch from a few episodes ago, in an effort to speed up his grace recovery.  But now I'm not so sure.  I guess we'll find out.

All in all, I've liked the last few episodes.  It does seem as though Jared and Jensen are on opposite schedules, but I hope that doesn't continue for the entire season.  I like them working together.

[auntvi]

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I've seen comments concerning Sam's "control issues" and turning into someone who needs to control everyone and everything.

I didn’t see that at all. Sam was talking to Charlie person to person, not boss to employee, and she certainly felt free to disagree with him. I didn’t hear Dean call Sam for permission but just to let him know. Sam didn’t respond to his call like a boss. 

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, auntvi said:

I didn’t see that at all. Sam was talking to Charlie person to person, not boss to employee, and she certainly felt free to disagree with him. I didn’t hear Dean call Sam for permission but just to let him know. Sam didn’t respond to his call like a boss. 

I agree. I disagree with the assessments that Sam somehow has a controlling personality.

[sarthaz]

I didn't love this episode, because so much of the writing was shit (basically everything with Sam and Not!Charlie), but HUGE kudos to Dick Speight for delivering the first interesting performance from Jack since he joined the show. I haven't been able to muster an ounce of give-a-damn about his whiny bitch-ass, but out of nowhere, this episode finally made him a character. I don't know if it will stick, but it was nice to finally see him not suck.

[BabySpinach]

2 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I didn't love this episode, because so much of the writing was shit (basically everything with Sam and Not!Charlie), but HUGE kudos to Dick Speight for delivering the first interesting performance from Jack since he joined the show. I haven't been able to muster an ounce of give-a-damn about his whiny bitch-ass, but out of nowhere, this episode finally made him a character. I don't know if it will stick, but it was nice to finally see him not suck.

It made such a difference to me that no one gushed over/coddled Jack and he was allowed to just "be" (including having occasional moments of awkwardness or incompetence). He also didn't indulge in yet another self-pitying whine fest, and he was fairly active rather than passive this time. If he's consistently written as just a person rather than a cinnamon roll manchild who gets showered with praise and adoration every two seconds, I could put up with him in the long term.

Once again, Showing him as a rather awkward, lost-duck rookie was far more beneficial to his likability than Telling us how wonderful he was through various designated mouthpieces/babysitters. We typically identify more with effort and vulnerability than flawless successes, and we also don't enjoy being spoon-fed the "correct" perceptions and interpretations as determined by the writers.

The problem is that Jack's got Woobie Tuberculosis now, which I feel is just going to drive the coddling back up through the roof as well as reduce him to a passive sufferer. I have zero interest in watching the main characters fawn and fret over him while he tragically coughs into a bloody tissue.

[juppschmitz]

3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

It was C/O Post Office.  Maybe the guys check their mail there occasionally.  

Jack gave her his p/o box address?? Whatever for? Do they not have mobile phone numbers?? 

That little plot tidbit makes no sense.(Well, I don't actually know how p/o boxes work, so.)

3 hours ago, SueB said:

With how tiny Lebanon is, if Sam or Dean took in Jack with them one time and introduced him by name to the postal worker, I'd bet it'd get to him.  They got a letter from Eileen -- I presume it was Lebanon where they keep a box.

Jack "Smith" though?

[Dobian]

Well that one was kinda dumb.  How much did they spend on makeup for zombie boyfriend, ten bucks?  It literally looked like he was dressed up as a zombie for a Halloween party.  The Charlie/Sam subplot was straight out of Grimm.  The one saving grace of the episode was Jack's charm, they really scored when they cast this kid in the role.

[Casseiopeia]

....

Edited November 17, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[ILoveReading]

5 hours ago, sarthaz said:

I didn't love this episode, because so much of the writing was shit (basically everything with Sam and Not!Charlie), but HUGE kudos to Dick Speight for delivering the first interesting performance from Jack since he joined the show. I haven't been able to muster an ounce of give-a-damn about his whiny bitch-ass, but out of nowhere, this episode finally made him a character. I don't know if it will stick, but it was nice to finally see him not suck.

I give equal credit to Jensen.  Any character paired with Dean instantly becomes more interesting.

[Bergamot]

22 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I was glad they didn't go the easy route of making Dean into a dick towards anyone (including the waitress, the librarian and Jack).  And even the pie-eating scene didn't show him shovelling food in and eating with his mouth open. 

 

20 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I thought this was okay. The Dean/Jack dynamic worked well enough and for once it was helpful to Jack without being super-mollycoddling. I guess Dean is the only character who can do that. 

I appreciated that Dean wasn`t made to look incompetent.

I had similar thoughts about the episode. Such simple needs we have! Please don't make Dean look like a dick, please don't make him look incompetent, please don't show food falling out of his mouth as he is eating with his mouth open!  We should not have to worry about stuff like this for an amazing character like Dean, we shouldn't have to be relieved when there are no cheap shots against him, but we do have to, and it's sad, really.

20 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Am I still annoyed that Michael!Dean was relegated to a few short scenes in two episodes and ONE! flashback? Yes, that was lousy and even less the very little I expected. Especially since they have time for Chief!Sam pimping in every single episode or for Jack`s woes here but if the show gives you lemons, at least Dean mans a little lemonade stand on his own.

Aeryn, I like the way you put this! Dean makes good lemonade, I think. :-)

[PAForrest]

I finally watched the episode late yesterday, and while I think Richard Speight has turned into quite the dick the last few years, and I haven't cared one way or the other for his directing before this, I will admit that this one was very clever in that department - though I'm sure at least some of that had to do with the script notes itself.

Obviously this was supposed to be a Jackie Sue vehicle, it certainly came off that way, and every single writer/showrunner knows - despite their biases - that the best way to make the audience care about a character is to pair him/her with Dean. So that's what happened. But at least when that happens Dean fans get to see a little of Dean - though a little is literally all we get now. I mean, seriously, except for Mint Condition, has Jensen put in more than 8 or 10 minutes in any of the other episodes this season? Because, of course, since it was a Jackie Sue vehicle, and because this is now an annoying BTS mandate, during the Dean/Jackie storyline, Dean has to be separated and sent off screen for a chunk of the plot - while on the flip side of the episode, Sam is never separated from his partner in the story and never not on screen during his storyline. I cry foul - again. And again. And again, because clearly it's never going to stop being a crappy thing.

And, what's also never going to stop being a crappy thing is still finding ways to diss Dean/Jensen's looks from every single male script writer. Yeah, I really don't want to hear it didn't mean anything, it was just Jackie Sue reacting to Dean calling him kid, yada, yada, yada. Uh, no, it doesn't have to be part of the script, yet every male writer is still doing it, still trying to find a way to make it part of the script. Which makes them all look petty and small and childish and very clearly seething with jealousy. Bored now with their vain insecurities.

I 'm also so over this new directive whereby everyone, including if not especially Dean, has to ask Commandant Sam's permission to hunt. Or that Dean is not trusted to hunt on his own or even with anyone else. What the hell did I miss that Dean is not being trusted to do his job even while still performing as the best hunter on the show? It makes no sense. Once again we're telling, but not showing anything.

All those annoyances aside, and they're never going to stop annoying me, both storylines in and of themselves were interesting enough - though a lot too much talky talky between Sam and Charlie in the Musca plot, which dragged the hour down every time. However, I did love how differently Felicia is playing AU!Charlie, making her a very unique character in comparison with the Charlie we've known before this. Kudos on the acting choices.

However, lots of douchebag points for Sam in browbeating Charlie to continue with hunting and not encouraging her to get out and do whatever the hell she wants to do. That was just bad.

I don't know what's going on with Consumption!Jack (love that!), I'm not exactly going to lose sleep over it because we know he's not going anywhere. I'm just worried how long we have to put up with it until we get past it.

[trudysmom]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

We should not have to worry about stuff like this for an amazing character like Dean, we shouldn't have to be relieved when there are no cheap shots against him, but we do have to, and it's sad, really.

This x1000!   I believe Speight deserves alot of credit for this.  His episodes seem to cast the best possible light on the brothers, IMO. Of course there's only so much he can do with a shitty script, so Sam's pressuring Not!Charlie to keep hunting was a huge matzo ball he couldn't do anything about.  My guess is there will be some hunt or something that Not!Charlie will be there for, her moxie and badassness will save the day, maybe even the brothers, and Sam will get credit for having convinced her to stick around.  Maybe she'll find a cure for Jacks consumption.  While she's at it she can cure Nick's Lucifer hangover and Sam's constipation, Not!Bobby's self-loathing and Mary's bitchy I'm-Not-Just-a-Momness.  (Are you ANY kind of mom?) Then she'll convince DarkKaia to come to the Good side, get the spear, single-handedly take down Michael and become a Wayward chick of some kind.  

I'm a little bitter, sorry it shows. 

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, PAForrest said:

But at least when that happens Dean fans get to see a little of Dean - though a little is literally all we get now. I mean, seriously, except for Mint Condition, has Jensen put in more than 8 or 10 minutes in any of the other episodes this season?

I don't think either Sam or Dean have had much more screen time than that, and unfortunately, we have Jensen and Jared to blame for it.  Not that I'm really blaming them.  I get that they've been doing the show for a long time, and in the early seasons they were in every single scene for the most part.  We're going to have to learn to get by with smaller doses of the characters we love, if the show is going to continue.  They have more leverage now and they've made it clear they want more time off for family.   The studio is willing to accommodate them because the show still makes them money. 

I just wish they had more interesting side characters, or not so many side characters.  I never used to mind a Bobby centric episode, in fact I rather enjoyed the few there were.  I also enjoyed watching Cas and Crowley play off each other.  I'm just not that invested in the other characters.  My favorites are still Sam and Dean with a side of Cas and Jack.  I do like Jody, Donna and Rowena, and even a bit of Ketch.  It's a shame that they've mangled Mary's character so much, because I think she could have been another interesting storyline had they done it correctly.  But I just can't muster up much enthusiasm for the AU crew.

Edited November 17, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[gonzosgirrl]

Not gonna lie, I totally missed this. LOL!

[SueB]

8 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Jack gave her his p/o box address?? Whatever for? Do they not have mobile phone numbers?? 

That little plot tidbit makes no sense.(Well, I don't actually know how p/o boxes work, so.)

Jack "Smith" though?

He didn't give a P/O box but he did give his first name.  And I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't the first letter that shows up at the Post Office addressed to the Winchesters with just the city on it.  Postman might be able to put 2 and 2 together.