S05.E06: The Icicle Cometh

[Trini]

Quote

Caitlin, Barry and Cisco learn something new about Caitlin's father (guest star Kyle Secor). Meanwhile, Iris and Sherloque follow a clue about Cicada.

Chris Peppe directed the episode written by Kristen Kim & Joshua V. Gilbert.

Airdate 11/20/2018

[mxc90]

Where was "Razor" Raeleen hiding in the previous seasons? No pepper spray needed for her. She was fearless, able to not drop her beverages while people bumped into her, skilled in fighting but doesn't have eyes in the back of her head. The show wasted a good opportunity with her. I assume the doctor was alluding to her cutting a man (was it in self defense or was she evil...we'll never know). 

Good to know if you jump off a building your issues with your daughter are all forgotten. Someone should tell Dr. Phil!

Why is the humor terrible on this show (Iris'cooking, Barry falling in the outfield, most of anything with Ralph and now Cecile)? Surprised they didn't have Cecile slap the guy around for answers for cheap laughs.

No Flash running CG tonight (there was more running in the previously montage than the entire episode) or showing the process for retrieving the core. Must have needed to allocate all the money to all the ice CG and opening fight.

Edited November 21, 2018 by mxc90

[bettername2come]

I liked it. My favorite thing was just seeing the original Team Flash Trio working together and being supportive of Caitlin. And seriously, I think Cisco is the best friend in the Arrowverse. I liked Caitlin's story and thought DP played it well enough. Kyle Secor's Icicle look was pretty cool, no pun intended. I liked getting Killer Frost back. I feel like we're going to end up with those two split into 2 people at some point.

Good God, Ralph is two feet taller than Cecile. I loved her yelling about saving the world in between contractions. True, that was pretty badass. They made a fun team up. Seriously, I like Cecile more every week and I liked her just fine in her season 1 appearances.

The C team of Nora, Iris and Sherloque didn't seem to get adequate story this week. I did like that Nora had begged Papa Joe to tell her all about Iris's time as a speedster. Neat that they used a trick that was hers and not Barry's.

Surprised this is the first time FEMA has been brought up in relation to comic book style disasters on this show. It's about time.

So Joe can only walk around when he's off screen? Is Jesse okay? I'm seriously worried.

Nicknames I enjoyed: Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman; Snow Patrol; Ce"Seal Your Fate" Horton

[Lady Calypso]

So...the episode could have been worse, but....there were things that bugged me.

Here's the thing; I like Caitlin having a storyline outside of romance. I like Caitlin without Killer Frost in sight. So her story with her dad didn't interest me initially but it was something I was hoping would be good. And, for the first fifteen minutes, it was. But it was so totally obvious that Thomas wasn't really Thomas. It was obvious that Cisco was right and I was irritated that Caitlin was buying everything that Thomas was selling. There WERE holes in his story and nobody could see it right away. 

Plus, Caitlin went from "this is my DAD and he's GOOD!" to "Oh shit he has an alter ego and is evil!" real quick. One conversation with Barry and Caitlin had a split second epiphany. However, it was nice to see these three working together, and it was nice getting reference to season 1 Harrison "Eobard" Wells. More Cisco works for me as well. 

It looks like, with the return of Killer Frost, she got a new wig as well...or it was the lighting that made it look more platinum or grey. I'm not thrilled with the return of Killer Frost, but if she's here to stay, maybe stop with the KF vs Caitlin stuff that they drove to the ground through comedy last season. 

1 minute ago, bettername2come said:

So Joe can only walk around when he's off screen? Is Jesse okay? I'm seriously worried.

Jesse had a back injury so he's on medical leave for a while. It sounds like it'll be for the rest of the first half of the season.

The Nora/Iris stuff would have worked better if Nora, you know, actually talked things out with Iris instead of ignoring the issue at hand. 

The Cecile/Ralph stuff was decent enough.

[catrice2]

At some point they really have to stop letting the team just blindly believe and follow everybody that they meet, especially after they have been exposed to so many different betrayals and bizarre things. This show started out showing Barry as extremely intelligent as well as Cisco and Caitlin and yet they continually show them doing really dumb things. Almost no Nora yippie. I think I went to sleep left the room or something during the Cecile and Ralph scenes. I'll have to go back and watch

I hope mr. Martin is okay

[bettername2come]

8 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Jesse had a back injury so he's on medical leave for a while. It sounds like it'll be for the rest of the first half of the season.

Thank you! I didn't know the mystery had been solved.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Victor Fries SHOUT OUT!🙌

That’s all I got.

[ursula]

I enjoyed Ralph and Cecile's team-up. Danielle Nicolet has great comedic timing and I love the way the show uses her. I still miss Jesse though. Nora/Iris and Sherloque's B plot was cute, if rather pat-pat considering all the earlier angst but this is the Flash. I'm just pleased they did give them some drama to start with. Even though it went places I wasn't happy about, I'm more pleased than not with the FutureIris/Nora drama. I'm also inclined to believe, if Caitlin/Dad's story this episode is any indication, that we'll find out that FutureBarry had as much, if not more, to do with that implantation as FutureIris did. As someone pointed out the obvious - Iris couldn't have invented the meta-suppression chip or implanted it into Nora herself. We are yet to find out more about the members of Team Flash involved in "suppressing" Nora.

Which made the Caitlin plot good for one thing. Because besides that, it was utterly forgettable and blatant fan service to “original team flash” team-up to replace Ralph with Barry when up until now, the former had been a big part of the “Caitlin” arc. And it should go without saying but I will still point out that Barry relates Caitlin’s father’s return to him and Nora, while ignoring how Caitlin used his parents’s death against him and blamed him for her “broken-ness”.  This is the 37th iteration of The Legend of Killer Frost: Origins. Let's hope tpb have found something that finally sticks. 

[BeautifulFlower]

33 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

At some point they really have to stop letting the team just blindly believe and follow everybody that they meet, especially after they have been exposed to so many different betrayals and bizarre things. This show started out showing Barry as extremely intelligent as well as Cisco and Caitlin and yet they continually show them doing really dumb things. Almost no Nora yippie. I think I went to sleep left the room or something during the Cecile and Ralph scenes. I'll have to go back and watch

I hope mr. Martin is okay

Right? Especially Barry. I don't who this was in this episode. Barry has always been skeptical of people, yet he completely believes Thomas? What?

[Lantern7]

I just finished commenting on tonight’s Challenge finale, and I’m still angry. As irritating as the characters here can get, it’s still a decent show. I need to remember that.

”Cecile ‘Your Fate’ Horton.” That’s so cute. And she and Ralph were cute together.

Bigger surprise: Victor Fries mention, or seeing Razorsharpe from “Bloodlines,” the big annual issue crossover for DC Comics In 1993? Liquid metal blade arms are a badass visual, even in the shallowest of characters.

So Caitlin was a meta the entire time, and Barry didn’t make that happen thanks to Flashpoint. Eh, I’ll allow it. I’ll also allow her and Frost being September personalities to slide as well. “Icicle”? Great name for her dad. And I like how close she and Cisco are, and I don’t think the series would resort to “shipping” them. Like a strait laced genius girl and are pop culture dork of a brother, who is also a genius.

[ruby24]

God I hate Caitlin episodes. First bad episode of the season for me.

I just do not care about Caitlin or Killer Frost. I never will. I don't get why she's still on the show. What boring revelation. Big shocker, KF disappeared because Caitlin has a mental block and now she's back, but less villain-y than ever (which was the only mildly interesting thing about her if they had ever had the guts to make her truly evil, but now that's gone too).

Lame.

Here's the thing- the way they've watered down Killer Frost (who is a VILLAIN in the comics) to just being Caitlin with white hair at this point, tells me they feel some sort of obligation to keep Caitlin (and probably Panabaker) on the show as part of the team, no matter what. The only thing that could have ever been done with this plot was to make KF a true villain and genuine murderous alter ego that they had to have Caitlin contain.

But they never wanted to go all the way with it. If KF was truly another person, then Caitlin isn't responsible for her actions and we have a true split personality storyline to deal with, which is at least something. But they refused to ever do that. The only explanation imo, is that they didn't want to isolate Caitlin (or DP) from the main cast, which this storyline would have required, for at least a bit.

Edited November 21, 2018 by ruby24

[adora721]

So, after all this, we have no reason for why Killer Frost is evil. Okay...

2 lines of direct dialogue between Iris and Cait.

Edited November 21, 2018 by adora721

[Lantern7]

12 minutes ago, adora721 said:

So, after all this, we have no reason for why Killer Frost is evil. Okay...

Quick fanwank before bed: KF is basically Caitlin’s aggressive side, as opposed to being genetic “evil.” Savitar nudged her towards the “Killer” part and gave her that outfit because the KF he encountered in his past as Barry on Earth-2 wore something like if. Cisco told her about KF, she manifested, and she probably subconsciously gave in at some point.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Lantern7

[adora721]

30 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Savitar nudged her towards the “Killer” part and gave her that outfit because the KF he encountered in his past as Barry on Earth-2 wore something like if. Cisco told her about KF, she manifested, and she probably subconsciously gave in at some point.

I suspect you haven't seen my posts that identify canon acts of evil including attempted murders, torture, assault and other felonies that Caitlin committed before Killer Frost took full control of her. Also, Killer Frost tried to murder Barry, Cisco, Julian, and HR before she even met Savitar, so no nudging needed. 

I'm far too exhausted with her story line to retread this, but I appreciate that you are a fan. However, I cannot find anything redeeming about Caitlin or Killer Frost in the writing for them.

Edited November 21, 2018 by adora721

[AnimeMania]

I liked that Ralph knocked everything that was on the FEMA guy's desk onto the floor when picking up the box of records.

Cicada broke into a hospital to steal a bottle of hydrogen peroxide and a bandage? Dude!

[Jediknight]

Lianne Mars was evil and killed Beebos last season, and Jake Kane is evil this season and tried to kill his own daughter.  Dude, if they ever get Aaron Echolls, he should be the nicest guy there is.

Ralph and Cecille were a fun team.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Jediknight

[tennisgurl]

So, time to give the Caitlin story some real credit. Ever since Killer Frost first became a thing, I've been super annoyed that she has this split personality along with her power, when no one else every did, and her having powers meant evil for awhile, while none of that happened to anyone else who got powers, so finding out that she actually does have powers from a unique source actually makes sense. So, kudos show. I have no clue if you had that planned from the beginning, but you did finally write in an explanation. 

I did actually like the Caitlin story more than I excepted to, considering how little I've been invested in her dad hunt this season. It was rather frustrating how quickly she and Barry were buying his crap hook, line, and sinker, but they at least had rather emotional reasons to buy it, and Cisco was calling bullshit from pretty much the first minute. It was also really nice to see original team Flash all teaming up, with even a reference to original Not Wells. Its been awhile since it was just the nerd trio and Not Wells, and it was nice to see them going on this more emotional mission together. Its not a perfect story, but it could have been a lot worse. 

The Ralph and Cecile team up was fun. Holy crap, Ralph is a freaking giant next to her, even more so than he usually does! Ralph is being used much better this season, as support/comic relief, and you can tell Danielle Nicolet loves doing comedy, and she and Hartley Sawyer had fun comedic timing together. A rather fluffy subplot, but it was enjoyable for a C plot. I actually think my favorite part was when Ralph deliberately knocked everything off the FEMA guys desk. That twerp deserves that level of pettiness directed at him. 

Nice to see Nora and Iris bonding, complete with awkward attempts at a handshake! I could use more West-Allen family scenes, but I guess we got so much good stuff last week, I cant be too mad. 

Victor Fries reference! How appropriate! 

Not as strong an episode as last week, but a solid episode anyway. 

[Trini]

5 hours ago, ruby24 said:

First bad episode of the season for me.

Same. My instincts about these particular writers turned out to be right.

I don't really care about Caitlin/Killer Frost, but I wanted to see what new answers they'd give about her. And honestly, I'm still confused. In this show that has always thrown around pseudo-science techno-babble, it seemed extra non-sensical in this one. Why couldn't Caitlin's father leave the North Pole again? He really was just going to wait there until Caitlin showed up? Caitlin should have had more questions for him. The dual personality thing is still unexplained. Convenient DoD facility right outside the city that does the exact thing that needs to be done. The video feed detail that amounted to nothing. Caitlin's mother's role in this all this when apparently she knew that a similar thing that happened to her husband was happening to her daughter.

So all those writing problems plus the dumbest thing in this episode - not just dumb, but unnecessary - all these geniuses waltzing into near absolute zero environment with no plan or protection and nearly freezing solid (but not because 'we can't kill off half our cast'). Caitlin should have gone alone, since she was the only one did anything in that scene.

So anyway, this arc results in a new villain to fight; Caitlin gets her friend back, who I'm sure will as useful to the team as she's always been; and maybe something for Caitlin to do in the second half.

6 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

It was obvious that Cisco was right ...

Cisco is always right!

And the other subplots weren't that great either. They were saved by a couple of cute/funny character interactions, but still could be summed up in about a minute or two. While I did like seeing the unusual pairing of Cecile/Ralph, all their plot amounted to was: "We got a list." Plus I think it veered into 'too silly' territory a few times.

Wells #476 continues to be an annoying waste of space and screentime. He was completely unneeded here; they didn't need him for Iris and Nora to find the satellite wreckage. Got whiplash from Nora suddenly being an Iris fangirl, although I did like their bonding moments. It just could have been handled a little better, I think.  So yeah, going to be lowering my expectations (even more) with these two writers from now on.

Honestly, the most interesting and successful subplot for me was Cicada's. We got introduced to a cool new meta... who died immediately. We see he's still a threat. His dark matter infected(?) injury is making him stronger, but he's still vulnerable? So far I'm enjoying the slow buildup. And I'm pleasantly surprised that the (black, female!) doctor is a recurring character.

 

6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Victor Fries SHOUT OUT!🙌

That’s all I got.

Another site mentioned that Louise Lincoln, who was also mentioned, was one of the Killer Frosts in the comics.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Trini

[Trini]

Also I had meant to mention this in the last episode thread, but re: Ethical Concerns that the Show will Never Address: those satellites that they're using now were made tech/materials that DeVoe stole. I'm sure those companies/etc. would like their stuff back.

---

Third episode without Jesse L. Martin. So will Joe be just offscreen for how long? I really hope that he is able to be included in the 100th episode.

[thuganomics85]

It was kind of fun seeing the Barry/Cisco/Caitlin trio mainly on a mission by themselves.  Brought back memories of the earlier seasons.  But can't say I'm surprised that Caitlin's undead father ended up not being who he said he was, and has been basically taken over by his version of "Killer Frost."  But it sounds like the real man might be still in there?  Certainly seems like he will be returning which is cool, since that will mean more Kyle Secor (although I still rather he guest on Brooklyn Nine-Nine and team up with Andre Braugher again.  Bayless & Pembleton for life!)  And also Killer Frost herself is back.... kind of.  She can come out, but Caitlin is currently suffering a mental block from DeVoe, so she's know using that thinking device to communicate with KF.

Hey, Ralph and Cecile were actually kind of fun together!  Although, I once again got the sense that the original plan would have involved Joe more too, but the issues with Jesse L. Martin's health put a stop to that.  I hope he recovers enough to at least appear in the 100th episode.

Glad Nora is now trying to bond with Iris, even if she's ironically sometimes going too far with the praise and lavishing.  Find a middle ground, Nora!  Still, they made a good team.  And Sherloque continues to inadvertently bring the best out of everyone else by being a pain in the ass, which isn't exactly a complement, but I guess that's something?

Looks like the team is zeroing in on Cicada, but since this is only the 6th episode of the season, I'm going to guess it ain't going to be so easy to bring him down. 

[Jediknight]

1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

Looks like the team is zeroing in on Cicada, but since this is only the 6th episode of the season, I'm going to guess it ain't going to be so easy to bring him down. 

No guarantees that Cicada will be the ultimate Big Bad of this season.  In season 3 they caught Alchemy early, but Savitar was the Big Bad.  We don't know why Nora chose the satellite as the moment she intervened, and who helped her choose that moment.

[ottoDbusdriver]

So, what exactly was Icicle's Plan B if Caitlin had never discovered her father's hidden message and Team Flash had never come along to the hidden site ?

 

Didn't care for Caitlin's staunch defense that her father wasn't evil after Cisco indicated that his vibes showed that Icicle was lying -- he can't be evil, he's my dad -- only for her father to be completely evil.

How many times has this happened on this show ?

[cambridgeguy]

I don't know why it didn't register until now that Caitlin's dad is named Thomas but if she ever runs into Batman they'll have something to bond over.

And yes, it looks like KF will get a permanent free pass for all of the felonies she committed in previous seasons but that's not unprecedented.  Marlize spent a good chunk of last season helping Devoe and she got to walk away even without the excuse of an alter ego.  Over on Arrow the Calculator participated in some villainous plots but Team Arrow let him walk too.

10 hours ago, adora721 said:

2 lines of direct dialogue between Iris and Cait.

Yup, and if you watch the scene right before they go after Icicle you only see a clear shot of the the two of them together at the beginning when Caitlin, Cisco, and Barry walk in.  The rest of it could have used stand-ins.  And at the end how did Caitlin know "guys, we need you in the speed lab" literally meant just the guys when the previous time she went with them?

She shouldn't worry too much, though.  If Icicle is anything like KF then in a year or so he'll morph from murderous villain to snarky but well-meaning good guy.

Edited November 21, 2018 by cambridgeguy

[SevenStars]

This episode was really bland. I might have enjoy the Caitlin/Cisco/Barry trio if it didn't feel like Barry was just put there to showcase this trio, reason for Caitlin story  to be A plot and that Barry didn't even really care or necessary for the story . That he was there, just to be there. This made the whole thing seem/feel force, which made a bland story even worst. It would have been so much better and feel so much more if it was Cisco and Caitlin. The writers messed up KF/Caitlin in their attempt to keep her "innocent", that I didn't expect much from this episode but I wanted to at least get new info that we didn't already know or suspect.

I didn't like the instant hero worship from Nora with Iris. It felt force and kind of fake because it was so instant. I prefer they had Nora slowly start seeing Iris for who she is in the present and have a real relationship with Iris, not hero worship one. I hope the writers fix that in later episodes. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 hours ago, Trini said:

 

Another site mentioned that Louise Lincoln, who was also mentioned, was one of the Killer Frosts in the comics.

I don't really care about Killer Frost. Because I'm a HUGE Batman: The Animated Series fan, I loved that mention. And did this show steal Icicle's name from Smallville? Remember the Justice League two-parter? Where that dweeby Icicle Junior killed Pemberton/Star Spangled Kid? And was supposedly recruited for Pam Grier's Amanda Waller's Suicide Squad? I don't know nuthin' about the back story of the character, except for what I've seen on teevee.

1 hour ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Didn't care for Caitlin's staunch defense that her father wasn't evil after Cisco indicated that his vibes showed that Icicle was lying -- he can't be evil, he's my dad -- only for her father to be completely evil.

 

This annoyed me so much. Yes, yes, he's her dad, but how long had it been since she'd seen him? How does she even know what kind of man he is today? Same for Barry's attitude. It was the same for him back in Season two's Cross-over, where he tells Oliver to get to know his kid or whatever, because HE didn't have his dad due to Henry being in jail; and now Caitlin should get to know her "Daddy" because of his relationship with Nora. Like, Barry thinks all relationships he's had with his dad, daughter, whoever, are the same for everyone else.

Cisco was the MVP last night.

57 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

I don't know why it didn't register until now that Caitlin's dad is named Thomas but if she ever runs into Batman they'll have something to bond over.

 

Kill Me Now.

And I'll sit at my table for one, but I thought Cecile was incredibly stupid, and I didn't find her scenes enjoyable, let alone funny. I remember when we first met her: she was a no nonsense hardass. What? did gaining telepathy powers and giving birth turn her brain to mush? And if she's still DA, why isn't she at work? Oh wait. She's on maternity leave, right? But obviously bored and itching to do something other than folding laundry.

[BeautifulFlower]

I knew this episode would be weak when I first read who wrote the episode back at the press release. Kristen and Joshua are the weaker writers.

I rolled my eyes at Killer Frost saying Team Flash is her family. I'm sorry, but when? This is my main problem. When did Killer Frost started caring about these people? They tried to suppress her in season 3 and then Caitlin left. She hasn't been around them for 6 months and bam, she liked them?

[DavidJSnyder]

5 hours ago, Trini said:

 

So all those writing problems plus the dumbest thing in this episode - not just dumb, but unnecessary - all these geniuses waltzing into near absolute zero environment with no plan or protection and nearly freezing solid (but not because 'we can't kill off half our cast'). Caitlin should have gone alone, since she was the only one did anything in that scene.

Near absolute zero which causes everyone to lie on the floor but then be absolutely OK afterwards made me nostalgic for frozen lasers.  At least that was funny.

[Lady Calypso]

18 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I knew this episode would be weak when I first read who wrote the episode back at the press release. Kristen and Joshua are the weaker writers.

I rolled my eyes at Killer Frost saying Team Flash is her family. I'm sorry, but when? This is my main problem. When did Killer Frost started caring about these people? They tried to suppress her in season 3 and then Caitlin left. She hasn't been around them for 6 months and bam, she liked them?

I know I stopped watching halfway through last season, but I THINK it was slowly over the course of last season, when KF and Caitlin started to like each other? It wasn't great writing, but they did try to depict both sides liking each other. 

That being said, this episode's Killer Frost was definitely different. It did feel like they finally merged her and Caitlin because I heard KF's echo voice but those were Caitlin's words.

[jmonique]

It's time for the Flash writers to either bring back Harry or let Tom Cavanagh move on to his next project. Sherloque's wardrobe might as well be T-shirts declaring "PLOT DEVICE TO KEEP TOM AROUND."

[BeautifulFlower]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

I know I stopped watching halfway through last season, but I THINK it was slowly over the course of last season, when KF and Caitlin started to like each other? It wasn't great writing, but they did try to depict both sides liking each other. 

That being said, this episode's Killer Frost was definitely different. It did feel like they finally merged her and Caitlin because I heard KF's echo voice but those were Caitlin's words.

No, I meant with the team. Killer Frost wasn't with them for 6 months, and she comes back and just likes them. It will never make sense to me. I'm referencing season 4.

[phoenics]

So ... do we have an explanation for why Caitlin before during and after KF was so evil?  No?  Still no explanation?  Or is it because KF is an evil alter ego?  Why?

Can someone explain how this absolves Cait?  Can someone explain why we're supposed to trust KF now?  And why Cecile shouldn't be afraid of her?  Or Iris worried that she'll team up with an evil speedster to kill her?  Or Barry worried she'll stab him in the leg?

This absolution of Cait/KF is SO GLARING given this Nora/Iris thing.

Edited November 21, 2018 by phoenics

[Trini]

16 hours ago, Jediknight said:

No guarantees that Cicada will be the ultimate Big Bad of this season.  In season 3 they caught Alchemy early, but Savitar was the Big Bad.  We don't know why Nora chose the satellite as the moment she intervened, and who helped her choose that moment.

True, but by this time in Season 3, Savitar had been introduced. I think Cicada is the main villain for the present; and whoever "helped" Nora - if it is a villain - will be one that they intro but deal with later. Maybe even into next season.

 

12 hours ago, jmonique said:

It's time for the Flash writers to either bring back Harry or let Tom Cavanagh move on to his next project. Sherloque's wardrobe might as well be T-shirts declaring "PLOT DEVICE TO KEEP TOM AROUND."

If they want to keep him around, it's fine; but they're not even using him well. Sherloque is really not adding anything that we can't get from any of the other members of the team.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Trini

[phoenics]

Also - why does OTF include Cisco, Barry, Cait and evilWells, but Joe West is erased?

[cdnalor]

When Cisco said "Icicle" for Caitlin's dad, did anyone else think "Pops-icle?"

[Trini]

9 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

and the three "kids" from the first half of the first season were together again.

They've never not been together though. (Between season hiatuses don't count.)

ETA: Some people want back something that never left?

Edited November 21, 2018 by Trini

[ursula]

40 minutes ago, phoenics said:

So ... do we have an explanation for why Caitlin before during and after KF was so evil?  No?  Still no explanation?  Or is it because KF is an evil alter ego?  Why?

 

If anything this Thomas's story is supposed to imply that the alter ego's are a symptom of a disease : they are a manifestation of split-personality (pseudo mental health science here, obviously) and they are always evil. So there's no "Nice" Killer Frost. She'll always be a dangerous personae.

2 minutes ago, Trini said:

They've never not been together though. (Between season hiatuses don't count.)

ETA: Some people want back something that never left?

It makes more sense when you look at who is not there. 

[tennisgurl]

11 minutes ago, Trini said:

ETA: Some people want back something that never left?

Definitely not what I meant. I clearly wandered into some fandom drama I had no clue was a thing, so I am just gonna exit stage left.

So, with Caitlin's father being named Thomas, the same name as Batman's father, we should have an easy answer if Batman ever shows up, itching for a fight with Team Flash!"THOMAS?! WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAAAAAAAME!"

[adora721]

Forgot to mention that they will be dropping Nora's disdain for Caitlin that occurred in the Jitters scene with her and Harry last season. Nora didn't seem a bit concerned that Killer Frost, who tried to help murder her mom, was back. Le sigh....

[SevenStars]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

They've never not been together though. (Between season hiatuses don't count.)

ETA: Some people want back something that never left?

True but I think they want it back because it excluded certain people.

[adora721]

5 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

And yes, it looks like KF will get a permanent free pass for all of the felonies she committed in previous seasons but that's not unprecedented.

It's one thing to give a free pass to a guest character we'll likely never see again. It's quite another to give such a free pass to a member of team Flash we've known since the pilot. And to give Caitlin a free pass without earning redemption sends a terrible message to the watching audience, especially the kids.

Without knowing why KF is evil or Caitlin is evil, we'll never be able to trust her/them not to get up one day and just decide to try to kill Iris or someone else on the team again.

[SevenStars]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

It's one thing to give a free pass to a guest character we'll likely never see again. It's quite another to give such a free pass to a member of team Flash we've known since the pilot. And to give Caitlin a free pass without earning redemption sends a terrible message to the watching audience, especially the kids.

Without knowing why KF is evil or Caitlin is evil, we'll never be able to trust her/them not to get up one day and just decide to try to kill Iris or someone else on the team again.

It also take away any depth the character could have had. Despite DP acting, Caitlin /KF could have been an interesting character but the writers are so busying protecting and white washing her, that they don't realize that they are messing up a character that could have been interesting to watch, and discuss. 

[tennisgurl]

The Caitlin/KF kind of redemption arc has always been nonsense, even now that they've finally decided to explain why she has the split personality that comes with her powers, while no one else ever has. KF was a horrible person, who kind of randomly become less of a horrible person, and Caitlin just let her run around, without telling her friends where she was, or what was going on, and no one ever called her out on it. Really, I think thats the most annoying thing about Caitlin. No one ever seems to call her out for her many mistakes, unlike Barry or Cisco, who people will at least let know when they're being an idiot or selfish. I dont understand KF or what motivates her, and I hardly even understand Caitlin a lot of the time, and we`ve known her since day one! The only times I really like her now are her scenes with Cisco, as they actually do still have a strong friendship, even if it always has the black cloud of KF randomness hanging over it.

At least this means we can move on, and we can get back to more interesting plots, like Nora bonding with her family, the serial killer, Cisco's powers, where Barry left his lunch, how the resort Joe is apparently staying at, etc. 

[Macktor]

6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And did this show steal Icicle's name from Smallville? Remember the Justice League two-parter? Where that dweeby Icicle Junior killed Pemberton/Star Spangled Kid? And was supposedly recruited for Pam Grier's Amanda Waller's Suicide Squad? I don't know nuthin' about the back story of the character, except for what I've seen on teevee.

The Icicle has been a DC Comics villain since 1947.

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 minutes ago, Macktor said:

The Icicle has been a DC Comics villain since 1947.

I'm sorry, I wasn't more clear--I was aware of Icicle being a villain from Smallville's "Absolute Justice" but I'm not familiar with his background, so Cisco calling Thomas "Icicle" made me wonder if they were playing fast and loose with the name? I suppose I should be grateful they didn't make Thomas to be Victor Fries.

[adora721]

19 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I dont understand KF or what motivates her, and I hardly even understand Caitlin a lot of the time, and we`ve known her since day one! 

And therein lies the rub...we're expected to feel for these persons and support these persons without understanding them. The groundwork for Caitlin's dark side was laid in S1 and S2 with Ronnie being lost twice and her failed, traumatic relationship with Zoom in addition to her father "dying" when she was a child.

Although not all people react to tragedy in the same way (Barry and Iris didn't turn dark), having a mother who is emotionally cold and distant laid the groundwork for Caitlin to also be cold, suppressing all that hurt instead of dealing with it healthfully. 

Instead of building on a pretty decent story base, the writing just zigged, zagged, and pretzeled itself simply to whitewash all of Cait's and Killer Frost's evil actions and provided no motivation for any of those evil acts. If anything, having no motivation makes them seem insane, which is another reason not to have either on the team.

My main hope for this new story was to find the rhyme and reason behind Caitlin and Killer Frost's evil and have them redeem themselves. Learning she got her powers from a gene treatment doesn't really move her story forward or get any closer to understanding why they are evil. 

There was meta dialogue about not being able to see the villain standing right in front of you, and I just kept thinking, "That's you, Caitlin," and the team refuses to see it. Oh well...

Edited November 21, 2018 by adora721

[adora721]

30 minutes ago, SevenStars said:

Despite DP acting, Caitlin /KF could have been an interesting character but the writers are so busying protecting and white washing her, that they don't realize that they are messing up a character that could have been interesting to watch, and discuss. 

Totally agree. I want to like Caitlin again, but the writers aren't giving me reasons to do so.

[Rose Red]

This episode fell flat for me and I blame DP's acting...she might actually be getting worse

[silverstream]

So if Icicle can burst through the roof and just fly away, should we expect Caitlin/KF to develop that ability too? I'm surprised none of the other characters reacted to that.

[ursula]

2 hours ago, adora721 said:

The groundwork for Caitlin's dark side was laid in S1 and S2 with Ronnie being lost twice and her failed, traumatic relationship with Zoom in addition to her father "dying" when she was a child.

Although not all people react to tragedy in the same way (Barry and Iris didn't turn dark), having a mother who is emotionally cold and distant laid the groundwork for Caitlin to also be cold, suppressing all that hurt instead of dealing with it healthfully. 

Instead of building on a pretty decent story base, the writing just zigged, zagged, and pretzeled itself simply to whitewash all of Cait's and Killer Frost's evil actions and provided no motivation for any of those evil acts.

They laid the groundwork then chickened out at the execution probably because DP wasn't the original actor for the role. They wanted someone closer to Harrison's age then DP was cast as a favour and they ended up retooling the character. Again. And again. And again. And again. And...

[adora721]

1 hour ago, silverstream said:

So if Icicle can burst through the roof and just fly away, should we expect Caitlin/KF to develop that ability too? I'm surprised none of the other characters reacted to that.

Caitlin did her own version of Iceman's ice surfing back in S3, so the team isn't too surprised that Icicle has similar "flying" ability.