The Conners Past and Present

[ItsHelloPattiagain]

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I'm fine with Andy being retconned out of existence, but I wish they would just toss in a line about Jackie never having kids so we can all move on with our lives. Having said that, I think a story with Jackie/Andy where he is estranged from her could be really good (and could explain why he's never mentioned).

I have this imagined version in my head where Andy eventually ended up moving in with Fred and Fred's new wife (this was fueled by when Andy was little and once Fred and Jackie were divorced, Fred became "interesting" and learned to ski lol).  Fred and New Wife had a couple of kids and moved out of town, taking Andy with them since they were a "family" and Jackie was "alone".  Of course, this became the impetus for Jackie becoming a "life coach" (to try and heal her own issues while ministering to others).  So perhaps Jackie blocks Andy out of her head because it's too tragic to deal with. 

Yes, I spend too much time thinking about this. 

[Steff]

2 hours ago, ItsHelloPattiagain said:

I have this imagined version in my head where Andy eventually ended up moving in with Fred and Fred's new wife (this was fueled by when Andy was little and once Fred and Jackie were divorced, Fred became "interesting" and learned to ski lol).  Fred and New Wife had a couple of kids and moved out of town, taking Andy with them since they were a "family" and Jackie was "alone".  Of course, this became the impetus for Jackie becoming a "life coach" (to try and heal her own issues while ministering to others).  So perhaps Jackie blocks Andy out of her head because it's too tragic to deal with. 

Yes, I spend too much time thinking about this. 

I also kept coming up with something too tragic for Jackie to deal with as to why no one will even utter Andy's name.  He didn't have to fall into the grease trap, it could have been a vicious custody battle with Fred that did her in.  Her dating history, her multiple failed jobs, her living situation, lack of money, emotional instability & she's the poster child for if it's a bad idea, count Jackie in.  Fred could have not only became interesting, but more stable & with no finance issues.  Or if Andy was a little older, say pre-teen and chose to go live with Fred.  Jackie couldn't do anything to stop it & her reaction could have been so severe that Andy wants nothing to do with her. 

The only flaw in the theory I keep coming back to is that Bev wouldn't keep her mouth shut about it.  She would use it to torment Jackie.  Dan, Roseanne, the girls all would tread lightly & know don't even think about talking about Andy, but Bev always goes "there" where no one dares to go. 

I also spent WAY too much time thinking about it. 

[SmithW6079]

What was the point of introducing Louise as the manager of the restaurant if Becky is going to quit and work in the Lunch Box with Jackie?

I know Mark's death devastated Becky, but at some point, wouldn't it have occurred to her that working as a waitress in a bar is not what Mark wanted for her? (I understand about depression and grief, but did they ever say that Becky went to therapy to help herself cope? There are free grief groups and sliding scales for therapists.)

[Homily]

4 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

I know Mark's death devastated Becky, but at some point, wouldn't it have occurred to her that working as a waitress in a bar is not what Mark wanted for her?

I don't remember Mark from Roseanne being all that ambitious either for himself or for Becky.    Maybe I'm forgetting stuff that happened later in the series but the Mark I remember wouldn't have had a problem with Becky spending the rest of her life waiting tables.

[Homily]

23 hours ago, RocknRollZombie said:

Mark was always supportive of Becky. 

But was he ambitious for her?  I guess what I'm questioning is whether he would have cared if she stayed a waitress.  

[methodwriter85]

My imagined scenario is the one from The Women of Brewster Place- Andy gets in massive trouble as a teenager, Jackie puts up her house for bail money, and Andy skips out and Jackie loses her house as a result.

[peacheslatour]

14 hours ago, Homily said:

But was he ambitious for her?  I guess what I'm questioning is whether he would have cared if she stayed a waitress.  

I think he wanted her to stay home and have kids while he supported her.

[Bastet]

From last week's episode thread, re. the history of Becky and Mark:

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They both had ambitious, pre elopement let’s not forget that Mark immediately turned down the idea of moving to Minnesota and getting a job that would get him in the union with better pay. That’s a pretty good sign that he also wanted to better himself and have a better life. He turned the idea down  at first for Becky because he wouldn’t be okay with Becky thinking that because he was going to move he was going to forget about her and their relationship. And if going by the eps and the storyline with the episode leading to their elopement Becky must have thought about her decision on that and instead told him to take the job offer. 

Yes, after Darlene says Mark is even dumber than she thinks if he's going to turn down the Minneapolis job to stay in Lanford with Becky (which is what she'd asked him to do), Becky decides to tell him to take it.  That's what she's headed to do when she gets in that huge, ugly fight with Dan.  She thinks she not only isn't going to college, she's about to send her boyfriend away for his own good.  She's in an absolutely miserable space in her head, and just viciously unloads on Dan.

Mark winds up proposing, asking her to come with him to Minneapolis, and she agrees.  The plan is for her to get her GED and go to community college there while Mark works the union job.  Roseanne accepts Mark's assertion that he didn't make Becky do anything, she married him because she wanted to, and tells him Becky also wants to go to college, and if she doesn't, she'll know that's because of him.  He wants her to go, he's happy to be able to support her - he wants Becky to be able to do what makes her happy.  (It's later when he's threatened by it; see below.)

It's the first crucial point in Becky's story that winds up going to shit because the next time we see the character, it's New Coke Becky; Mark has lost his job, and they're back in Lanford.

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Yes, they wanted kids and were trying ( not disagreeing with you peacheslatour just need to quote ya to get to my point.)Just the decision of Becky wanting to go Study medicine must have been pretty much something that came out of nowhere in Mark’s perspective since it was stated it was the first time that Becky talked about it with him.

She told him she was going back on the pill, that she didn't want to have kids now because she was thinking of going back to school.  First, she revealed that she'd applied to university back in the day, and been accepted.  She was talking about maybe becoming an EMT or a physical therapist, he translated that to becoming a doctor, and she said maybe, she didn't know, but the sky's the limit; it'll be hard, but exciting.  He asks what about having kids, and she says she's going to go back on the pill; if she has a baby now, she'll be stuck like her mom, and she does not want to raise a kid in a trailer park.

Mark was scared she'd outgrow him - asking Roseanne how many doctors she knew who were married to mechanics - and Becky was restless (and miserable, and embarrassed, in that trailer), and had been whining to Roseanne about how it's all Mark's fault (forcing Roseanne to defend him, heh), but it really wasn't about him, it was about having her ambition reawakened and wondering how on earth this wound up being her life, when it wasn't at all what she pictured for herself.  She's smart, she used to have dreams, and she wanted to get that part of herself back and make something of her life.  If that had to be without Mark, fine, but she wasn't aiming to ditch him. 

That's the head space she's in by the time she tells him about college and not wanting to wind up stuck by having a baby now.  It would have been about trying to move forward together, so long as he was supportive, and once he got over feeling blindsided, hopefully he would indeed have been his old, supportive self.  But no more talk of college, and then as the show ends, Becky's pregnant.

So, a terrific episode, but another character development storyline dropped because they reverted to the aimless airhead version of the character (Lecy couldn't take the time away from school to go to Florida for the Disney episodes, so back came Sarah). 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Bastet

[Steff]

12 minutes ago, RocknRollZombie said:

This is why I love it when somebody understands their relationship.

Yes she wasn’t going to outright ditch him. Hey body language in that episode showed hesitation at the thought of ditching him. And he wasn’t going to walk away because of her decision. They just needed to talk it out. 
 

I agree Pretty sure once Mark got over feeling blindsided. He would be back to being supportive and loving of Becky’s decision because all he wants is her to be happy. They both always want/wanted the best for each other.

I agree with both of you.  And it's also why I didn't like nu-Becky (Sarah).  She just became a bimbo.  She didn't have any of the real dreams or potential that original recipe Becky had or the real angst over her choices & decisions.   With Mark & original Becky they wanted the best for each other & could envision the dream the other one had.  Nu-Becky threw fits about what was best for Mark, but she was content to be a bimbo.  Original Becky threw fits for Mark and herself and what they wanted out of life, not because she was a waitress at a knock off Hooters. 

It's also why I can see how Mark's death completely derailed Becky's life. He was her biggest cheerleader without the snark like her family.  He supported her dreams, wanted her to be someone if that's what she wanted.  As long as it was what she wanted, he was there.  granted sometimes it would take him working thru it, like the Dr. conversation, but he wanted Becky to be happy.  I always felt that Mark felt that Becky was that proverbial "better half" for him.  She made him respectable & a better person.  He gave her the confidence & support to be a better Becky.  At least in theory, if not always in practice.  The two of them together, to me, was the perfect "learn to be happy with where you are in life while still reaching for more".  Mark was happy no matter where they were as long as they were together, while original Becky was always going to be reaching/working towards more.  Again, at least in theory.  Nu-Becky derailed all of that because she was a bimbo with no dreams & none of original Becky's smarts. 

[Steff]

1 hour ago, RocknRollZombie said:

I agree to all of that. Thank you for pointing out that Nu-Becky whines about what was best for Mark and not for the both of them. I absolutely hated when it came to Nu-Becky going with Roseanne’s advice of trying to control Mark in the episode where we find out Mark wasn’t going to trade school. And pretty much made Mark think that she was trying to say that he was worthless since he wasn’t going to trade school.
 

Original Becky wouldn’t have let Roseanne/ take Roseanne’s advice of trying to control Mark. I remember the first thing that original Becky was worried about concerning Mark with Dan’s bike shop going out of business. Wasn’t the fact that he wouldn’t have money to take her out, it was the concern of how he was going to be able to pay rent of his apartment.

No matter how many times some fans are going to always say that Mark wasn’t right for Becky. That she screwed up her life. They always loved each other, and supported one another. They will always be the more healthy relationship to me. They will always be the couple that made me love the show. 

I completely agree that Mark & Original Beck had the healthiest relationship.  They were equals without one trying to control or "play" the other.  Jackie never really wanted Fred, she got stuck with him & ended up hating him.  Roseanne was always scheming, planning or doing something to keep Dan in the dark.  Darlene & David's relationship never even had an attempt at being equals.  But Becky & Mark treated each other right, loved each other deeply, and wanted the best for each other, not just themselves.  For being as selfish as a teenager as Becky was & as "joe cool don't give a shit" as Mark was, when push came to shove, both of them thought about what was best for the other first.  Like the bike shop episode.  Becky's life has been turned to shit, she lost her college dream, but her anger comes out about what Mark will lose. 

Even tho Mark & Becky from the outside looked like they were Dan & Roseanne 2.0, Becky didn't want to be like her parents.  Roseanne couldn't see that, but at times Dan came across like he got it.  He knew Mark had value as a mechanic & as a person.  Think about the episode where Dan tears into David for treating Mark like he's a failure at everything.  For all his harsh words & reaction to the elopement, he LIKED Mark.  Roseanne came across as she couldn't stop it, so at least now she'd have someone to pick on all the time. 

My brother & I have spent way too much time talking about the relationships from the show & why it all just works in a satisfying way. We've agreed that Becky was our favorite then (minus Nu-Becky) and she's still our favorite now.   But it takes an understanding that for some families, it's nearly impossible to break the bad choices, no money, no dreams come true cycle. 

[Bastet]

18 minutes ago, RocknRollZombie said:

Like you said Becky wasn’t mad about college

Yes she was.  As would be anyone who, through lack of experience and exposure, didn't know anything more than the simplistic notion she'd been told by her parents and guidance counselors that if she kept working hard and getting good grades, she could go to college, and then sat down to fill out financial aid forms and found out her parents weren't poor enough for her to qualify for full aid but they'd spent her college fund that was supposed to bridge the gap - "So even if I can't get into these schools, I can't afford to go?" 

A full academic scholarship was a "big maybe" and she wanted to know what the point of all that effort to get all As was if she was just going to wind up at community college:

"All this time, you told me that if I worked hard and made good grades, I could make something out of myself."
"You still can."
"Going to night school and working at the Buy 'n' Bag?  I'm gonna wind up just like you!"
"Hey!  You apologize for that; your mother busted her butt for you."
"I busted my butt to get into a good school, how come you never told me there was no way?"
"Oh, we purposefully went broke so you couldn't go to the college of your choice!"
"You should've told me I was on my own."
"Oh, come off it; you've never been on your own."
"Well, then, what would you call it?"

And she stomps off.  After D.J.'s spelling bee, when Dan gives her the chocolate ice cream, she jokes forget college, maybe she'll just marry Mark and move in with them, and Roseanne tells her not to bother killing them for the insurance money, as there isn't any, and they all have the food fight.

That's the end of season four, and season five opens with Dan deciding to close the bike shop, at which point Becky's ire flares up again, for Mark and herself.  She wonders what's going to happen to Mark, losing his job like that, and they're agog at her thinking of him first rather than them.  Mark tells her about the offer in Minneapolis, she squawks, he says he'll stay if she wants, she asks him not to go, he agrees, Darlene finds out and speaks the truth of how utterly stupid that would be, Becky decides to tell him to go ahead and move for the job, and then the fight in the kitchen ensues when Roseanne and Dan find out she's ditching school to be with Mark (coming on the heels of Dan whining about Roseanne taking a break from the closing to go on an interview, so everyone is on edge):

"You know, you act like you're the only ones with problems around here."
"You are the most selfish piece of work I have ever seen in my life!  Do you have any idea what we're going through?"
"Do you have any idea what I'm going through?  Today may be the last day I'll ever see Mark again ... He got a job offer in Minneapolis, and I'm telling him to take it, and it's all because of you."
"Excuse me?"
"If you knew how to run a business, he'd still have a job and he wouldn't be leaving.  Now I don't have Mark, I don't have college, I don't have anything!  You blew it, Dad, you blew it for everyone in this family!"
"Becky, you shut up!"
"Come on, Mother, you know it!  Everybody knows it.  I'm the only one with the guts to say it."

Then she runs off with Mark.  When they come back to get her stuff, the explain their plan, and with some contemplation on the circumstances, the whole thing now doesn't seem quite as stupid as it did before; Becky and Mark head off for Minneapolis, and, as Roseanne says, "Maybe there's a very small chance this isn't the very worst mistake you're ever gonna make for the rest of your life."

Statistically, Becky and Mark would likely have divorced somewhere along the way had he lived, just like Darlene and David didn't last.  We already saw the odds defying in Roseanne and Dan.  But it doesn't matter whether or not Becky and Mark would have also been an unlikely success story; what's poignant is that he died young and she's been stuck in that lost potential ever since.

[Steff]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

Yes she was.  As would be anyone who, through lack of experience and exposure, didn't know anything more than the simplistic notion she'd been told by her parents and guidance counselors that if she kept working hard and getting good grades, she could go to college, and then sat down to fill out financial aid forms and found out her parents weren't poor enough for her to qualify for full aid but they'd spent her college fund that was supposed to bridge the gap - "So even if I can't get into these schools, I can't afford to go?" 

A full academic scholarship was a "big maybe" and she wanted to know what the point of all that effort to get all As was if she was just going to wind up at community college:

"All this time, you told me that if I worked hard and made good grades, I could make something out of myself."
"You still can."
"Going to night school and working at the Buy 'n' Bag?  I'm gonna wind up just like you!"
"Hey!  You apologize for that; your mother busted her butt for you."
"I busted my butt to get into a good school, how come you never told me there was no way?"
"Oh, we purposefully went broke so you couldn't go to the college of your choice!"
"You should've told me I was on my own."
"Oh, come off it; you've never been on your own."
"Well, then, what would you call it?"

And she stomps off.  After D.J.'s spelling bee, when Dan gives her the chocolate ice cream, she jokes forget college, maybe she'll just marry Mark and move in with them, and Roseanne tells her not to bother killing them for the insurance money, as there isn't any, and they all have the food fight.

That's the end of season four, and season five opens with Dan deciding to close the bike shop, at which point Becky's ire flares up again, for Mark and herself.  She wonders what's going to happen to Mark, losing his job like that, and they're agog at her thinking of him first rather than them.  Mark tells her about the offer in Minneapolis, she squawks, he says he'll stay if she wants, she asks him not to go, he agrees, Darlene finds out and speaks the truth of how utterly stupid that would be, Becky decides to tell him to go ahead and move for the job, and then the fight in the kitchen ensues when Roseanne and Dan find out she's ditching school to be with Mark (coming on the heels of Dan whining about Roseanne taking a break from the closing to go on an interview, so everyone is on edge):

"You know, you act like you're the only ones with problems around here."
"You are the most selfish piece of work I have ever seen in my life!  Do you have any idea what we're going through?"
"Do you have any idea what I'm going through?  Today may be the last day I'll ever see Mark again ... He got a job offer in Minneapolis, and I'm telling him to take it, and it's all because of you."
"Excuse me?"
"If you knew how to run a business, he'd still have a job and he wouldn't be leaving.  Now I don't have Mark, I don't have college, I don't have anything!  You blew it, Dad, you blew it for everyone in this family!"
"Becky, you shut up!"
"Come on, Mother, you know it!  Everybody knows it.  I'm the only one with the guts to say it."

Then she runs off with Mark.  When they come back to get her stuff, the explain their plan, and with some contemplation on the circumstances, the whole thing now doesn't seem quite as stupid as it did before; Becky and Mark head off for Minneapolis, and, as Roseanne says, "Maybe there's a very small chance this isn't the very worst mistake you're ever gonna make for the rest of your life."

Statistically, Becky and Mark would likely have divorced somewhere along the way had he lived, just like Darlene and David didn't last.  We already saw the odds defying in Roseanne and Dan.  But it doesn't matter whether or not Becky and Mark would have also been an unlikely success story; what's poignant is that he died young and she's been stuck in that lost potential ever since.

Of course she lashed out at her parents over the college disaster, but when she actually took action, made a decision & did something it was because of Mark's job.  If Becky had told Mark not to take the job, he wouldn't have because of her.  When it came down to it, they were the only couple who actually thought about the other one & would put the others wishes before their own. 

[Snow Apple]

I'm watching original Rosanne and realized the neighbor Kathy is mopey and miserable which drives away the locals, and the reason is because she wants to move back to Chicago. Remind anyone else of a certain character on The Conners? LOL

[methodwriter85]

God, it still bugs the shit out of me after all these years that Becky dropped out of high school right before her finals and thus missed out on her graduation. She did apparently get her GED but it still bugs the shit out of me that she was that close to finishing high school and the writers coudn't even let her do that. However, they did do a pretty good job in season 4 of detailing what drove Becky to do it.

[Homily]

23 minutes ago, methodwriter85 said:

However, they did do a pretty good job in season 4 of detailing what drove Becky to do it.

Her lashing out at Dan bothered me then and it still bothers me now.  Yes he screwed up but why on earth did Becky believe for one minute that her parents had enough money socked away to give her a free ride through college?  It never made any sense to me.  Becky was always presented as the smart one, and the one who stepped up and helped out at home.  Suddenly making it seem like she felt that the Conners had thousands of dollars earmarked just for her was clumsy writing IMO!

[Bastet]

Because she knew she had a college fund - what she didn't know is they'd spent it.  They'd also told her from the time it became clear she was a good student that if she worked hard and got good grades, she could go to college.  They didn't know shit about getting into college, so they believed it was as simple as that.  And she believed them.  They were all, for lack of experience and decent guidance counselors, very naive about how it worked.

So when she found out they'd made a bit too much money the previous year for her to qualify for full aid, she figured the college fund would make up the difference.  But, oops, no college fund; this year sucked, so they used it for other things.  Reality hit her hard and she flipped out.

She settled down once she had a chance to process, though.  She'd have hopefully looked into filing an amended financial aid application based on the change in the family's income, academic scholarships, etc.  But then when she also got hit with the Mark moving to Minneapolis situation, that was it; she got into that ugly fight with Dan and Mark proposed before there was enough time for her to settle down and think rationally.  So she ran off and married him. 

But by the time they came back to get her stuff, she already had a decent plan for Minneapolis - other than getting her GED rather than graduating HS, it's probably the same thing she'd have wound up doing in Lanford, going to community college to start.  So, like Roseanne said, maybe there's a small chance this isn't the biggest mistake she's ever going to make in her entire life.

Becky blows up when the chaos that is life forces her to detour off the tidy little path she'd been sold, but she also always calmed down and regrouped.  Except it was all shot to hell when Mark and New Coke Becky returned.

[iMonrey]

Quote

 I am fanwanking that the reason Darlene didn't mention Andy in her epic battle with Jackie is that she understood it to be the one taboo topic.  

Eh, in the heat of that moment, with Darlene going so far as to tell Jackie she was the bane of Roseanne's life and a loser, I doubt very much she would have held back on anything to do with Andy, assuming such a character ever existed in this universe. I just think the writers have decided that Andy was never born in this reality. I'm not sure why, but I guess they just think it's easier and simpler to write this way than have another character and another dynamic with Jackie.

[CrystalBlue]

10 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Eh, in the heat of that moment, with Darlene going so far as to tell Jackie she was the bane of Roseanne's life and a loser, I doubt very much she would have held back on anything to do with Andy, assuming such a character ever existed in this universe. I just think the writers have decided that Andy was never born in this reality. I'm not sure why, but I guess they just think it's easier and simpler to write this way than have another character and another dynamic with Jackie.

After reading stuff from articles, interviews and reviews of The Conners from other sources (as well as here), I have come to realize, believe and accept that (1) Jackie never gave birth to Andy and Andy never existed, and (2) Jerry Garcia Conner is still on a fishing boat somewhere.

[greekmom]

On 11/28/2019 at 11:54 AM, fraykis said:

Darlene didn't mention Andy in her epic battle with Jackie is that she understood it to be the one taboo topic. 

16 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

After reading stuff from articles, interviews and reviews of The Conners from other sources (as well as here), I have come to realize, believe and accept that (1) Jackie never gave birth to Andy and Andy never existed, and (2) Jerry Garcia Conner is still on a fishing boat somewhere.

I agree with Crystalblue.  The following do not exist at all in the new Conner universe: Andy, Jerry Garcia Conner and Jackie's marriage to Fred. 

Personally, I think they shouldn't have erased Andy.  They should have had him as a recurring character popping in every so often.  He would have been what 25?!? They could have had him working some type of travelling job or living in some big city like NYC and coming back to town every so often to bother the Conners.  At least Jackie would have had win.

[peacheslatour]

10 minutes ago, greekmom said:

I agree with Crystalblue.  The following do not exist at all in the new Conner universe: Andy, Jerry Garcia Conner and Jackie's marriage to Fred. 

Personally, I think they shouldn't have erased Andy.  They should have had him as a recurring character popping in every so often.  He would have been what 25?!? They could have had him working some type of travelling job or living in some big city like NYC and coming back to town every so often to bother the Conners.  At least Jackie would have had win.

He's a professional cheer leader for the Denver Broncos.

[qtpye]

So, i just re watched the episode "To Tell the Truth" It's the one where Roseanne and Jackie fight and Gary proposes to Jackie.

I understand why Jackie is hesitant since she only had dated Gary for a short time. However, now that I am closer to Jackie's age, I really can not believer that Jackie gave up a handsome, fit, kind, loving, and gainfully employed man with his own business so easily. Did I mention, that Gary seemed absolutely crazy about Jackie? I mean Gary was like a less funny Dan with a much better body. In Lanford, he must have been a freaking unicorn!

Jackie seems so hopeless and lost in the current episodes that I can not help think about how much happier she might have been had she married Gary.

The sister that she built her life around is dead and Jackie really has nothing of her own. I thought she might take Roseanne's role in the Conner family, but after the horrible way she has behaved about the restaurant situation, I think they might be better without her.

I hate to agree with Bev but Jackie really has frittered away her life. I just want to make sure that people understand that there is nothing wrong with a woman of a certain age leading an independent life and not marrying. The problem is that Jackie seems to want to be married, to the point of being a Suger Mama to an over the hill Ferris Bueller.

[Annber03]

My mom and I always think the same thing when the episodes with Gary come around. I liked him, and I liked him and Jackie together. It's a shame things didn't work out between them. 

[qtpye]

51 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

My mom and I always think the same thing when the episodes with Gary come around. I liked him, and I liked him and Jackie together. It's a shame things didn't work out between them. 

It is almost like she was afraid to have her own life independent of her sister. She let Roseanne fill the void that is usually filled by a significant other.

I should mention that Roseanne was very happy for her and was all set to help plan the wedding.

I think (do not remember) that Gary did give her an ultimatum to quit the police force, which is the one job she really loved. Unfortunately, she did not like doing the desk work they transferred her into after she got injured. Jackie definitely could be very flaky if things were not one hundred percent to her liking.

Jackie probably thought that there would be plenty of other fish in the sea. Her lowest point was supposedly sleeping with Arnie.

[bobalina]

The only way Jackie could have had a successful marriage was to move as far from Roseanne as she could get. Roseanne was a huge part of the reason the Fred marriage failed.

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, bobalina said:

The only way Jackie could have had a successful marriage was to move as far from Roseanne as she could get. Roseanne was a huge part of the reason the Fred marriage failed.

I think Fred was the reason that marriage failed.

[tessaray]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

Jackie seems so hopeless and lost in the current episodes that I can not help think about how much happier she might have been had she married Gary.

The sister that she built her life around is dead and Jackie really has nothing of her own. I thought she might take Roseanne's role in the Conner family, but after the horrible way she has behaved about the restaurant situation, I think they might be better without her.

I hate to agree with Bev but Jackie really has frittered away her life. I just want to make sure that people understand that there is nothing wrong with a woman of a certain age leading an independent life and not marrying. The problem is that Jackie seems to want to be married, to the point of being a Suger Mama to an over the hill Ferris Bueller.

I'm cutting Jackie some slack. Grief takes as long as it takes and it can cause you to make some pretty dumb decisions that you might not otherwise make.  It's been decades now but my sister died in a car accident when we were in our 30s and after about a year, I pressured my husband into moving halfway across the country.  I couldn't stand the pain of memories just driving down the streets of our home town. It ended up working out in the end but looking back, it was probably not the best thing we could have done at that point. 

[peacheslatour]

33 minutes ago, tessaray said:

I'm cutting Jackie some slack. Grief takes as long as it takes and it can cause you to make some pretty dumb decisions that you might not otherwise make.  It's been decades now but my sister died in a car accident when we were in our 30s and after about a year, I pressured my husband into moving halfway across the country.  I couldn't stand the pain of memories just driving down the streets of our home town. It ended up working out in the end but looking back, it was probably not the best thing we could have done at that point. 

I get that. My mom died suddenly two years ago and most days I don't know if I'm coming or going. Poor Jackie, she had opportunities in her life but she preferred to stick around the Conner house and never pursue them. It's like she blamed Roseanne for not seeing their dad in the last years of his life but, hey no one was stopping Jackie from seeing him. 

[qtpye]

43 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

I get that. My mom died suddenly two years ago and most days I don't know if I'm coming or going. Poor Jackie, she had opportunities in her life but she preferred to stick around the Conner house and never pursue them. It's like she blamed Roseanne for not seeing their dad in the last years of his life but, hey no one was stopping Jackie from seeing him. 

Jackie had something that most people did not, a built in best friend since childhood. This became her crutch and in all honesty, no guy or career, was ever going to take Roseanne's place in her life.

I used to think that Roseanne bullied her into it, but Jackie always had her own agency. She could of moved away but chose to stay. Really, what the hell was keeping her in Lanford besides the codependent relationship with her sister?

I do think Roseanne was jealous of anyone who had the guts to leave Lanford and make something of themselves. It is one of the reasons that I think she tried to stop Darlene from going away to the writing school in Chicago. She was literally blocking and excellent opportunity for her daughter because she did not want her to leave.

Edited December 2, 2019 by qtpye

[bobalina]

Having a best friend from birth also worked against Jackie. She's insecure and she never had to rely on her own decisions. Roseanne was always there to pick her up and dominate her. I think it was a little like Stockholm syndrome.

[PaulBMA]

Harris is starting to look a bit too "college student" looking for someone who is meant to be still in high school (her actress is 20). Gotta love Dawson Casting. Hey remember when "Sabrina, The Teenage Witch" cast a balding man as a high school student extra? That was turned into a Tumblr meme.

[peacheslatour]

12 hours ago, PaulBMA said:

Harris is starting to look a bit too "college student" looking for someone who is meant to be still in high school (her actress is 20). Gotta love Dawson Casting. Hey remember when "Sabrina, The Teenage Witch" cast a balding man as a high school student extra? That was turned into a Tumblr meme.

"Hello, fellow kids."

[UYI]

It really is interesting to see how close Becky and Dan have become, when on the old show Dan was MUCH closer to Darlene, at least at first. Remember when Dan attempted to hang out with her for a day and walked in on her singing along to "Pump Up the Jam"? " 😄 

And while Jackie and Becky's attempts to re-open the Lunchbox could have been dealt with a lot...well, better, I can't help but be reminded of the support Jackie gave Becky when she eloped with Mark. She was the only person to say that, no matter what happened, she was happy and excited to see Becky begin a life with someone she loved. It definitely wasn't the primary thing she needed to hear, but it was still a form of sympathetic, emotional support when she needed it most, and I love the closeness that exists between them again regardless. 🙂 

Edited December 11, 2019 by UYI

[PaulBMA]

Harris shows why sometimes these teenage girl characters can be seen by the audience as Scrappy Doo in a brassiere.

[UYI]

Okay. Ed. Little Ed. Angela. Crystal. Let's talk:

As I remember it, the last time Ed appeared on the original series was during season six (1993-1994), when Dan found out that his mother Audrey had been in a mental institution for years and Ed was willing to play the bad guy in order to spare Dan that pain. I got the impression, though, that that moment marked a POSITIVE turning point in Ed and Dan's relationship--that Dan understood that Ed was looking out for him over what had happened to his mother and that changed their relationship for the better.

As for Ed and Crystal...I know there were signs that he was originally repeating the same patterns of neglectful behavior that he had displayed with Audrey and Dan, but at the same time it seemed like he had become a better man and husband the second time around, too. I suppose it's possible that they wound up divorced after all, but after only seeing Crystal a few times since the revival started two years ago, we've had no indication of what he or her kids were up to. And now we have a situation where Ed dies, Little Ed and Dan are apparently meeting each other for the first time, and Crystal is nowhere to be seen. Whatever.

And that's before asking the question of where the fuck her oldest son Lonnie is supposed to be, too! Sigh. 

(I will say that I only remember seeing Angela a few times after she was born--the one scene I remember most is when the bike shop closed in season five and Crystal came to buy something out of pity--she had Little Ed and Angela in a stroller. Angela is another reason why I'm curious about Crystal's relationship with her kids, too--it was a big deal that Crystal had ALWAYS wanted to have a girl.)

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by UYI

[DB in CMH]

On 10/31/2019 at 2:16 PM, Bastet said:

There is no one point in the original series at which we switch to the book version; Roseanne wrote the story of her life, changing along the way things she didn't like about it but couldn't change in real life.  In "reality", Becky was with David and Darlene was with Mark, but Roseanne thought the girls would each be better off with the other brother, so she wrote them that way.  Going back even further, Jackie had always told Roseanne she was gay, but she wrote her with men.  So it's ALL the book, the whole original series, and some of what happened in the book is the same as it was in real life, but some of it is different; most of what's different comes in season nine, as her life after Dan's death is what she re-wrote the most.

It doesn't matter, though, because the revival season undoes all that, so the reality as revealed in the original season finale isn't actually reality.  Dan's alive, Jackie's straight, Becky was with Mark/Darlene was with David, etc.  But Andy doesn't seem to exist and a few other things are different.  So most of what happened in seasons one through eight is canon in this revival/spin-off universe, but not everything - and there are things we don't yet know for sure if they've carried over.

I don't want to see Andy or Jerry (there are enough characters as there is), but not acknowledging that they exist in some way (even in a mention) just shows a blatant disregard for the original series. 

The Golden Girls was well known to play fast and loose with characters - their ages, their children, how old their children were, and so on, based upon whatever was convenient for that week's storyline. Roseanne was never like that. The only major continuity gaffe they had was Roseanne having a boy instead of a girl. And David's name. Lol. Even during the lottery season they made call backs to Wellman from season 1. 

So the show is playing on nostalgia for the original, but disregarding parts of the original that they don't like or find useful. Maybe it's just that I'm a Roseanne superfan, but it's totally ruining the show for me. And this Little Ed stuff. The fuck? Get better, show.

 

[Giuseppe]

1 hour ago, UYI said:

And that's before asking the question of where the fuck her oldest son Lonnie is supposed to be, too! Sigh. 

I was gonna bring up Lonnie, too, haha. But at this point, seems like a wasted effort to wonder about any original characters. Have we even seen any of the secondary characters from Roseanne in this second season of The Conners? In the first season, we saw Crystal for sure, but before that, we saw Ann Marie, Nancy, Chuck...it's like TPTB have decided that we don't need to see any of them again. I mean, Jackie was friends with Crystal and Nancy, too, so they should at least still be coming around...unless the actresses have decided not to appear anymore. I don't know WTF is happening with this show. Isn't Sara Gilbert producing this, or something? She and I need to have a chat, lol.

[Meushell]

Dads on this show were suddenly abusive to their children the moment they die. Either that, or they disappear. (David abandoned his wife and kids. His own dad left him and Mark with an abusive mother. Fred completely vanished with his son.)

It’s getting really annoying.

Then again, the continuality on this show is so bad, Ed Senior might just show up next season.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Meushell

[UYI]

6 hours ago, Meushell said:

Then again, the continuality on this show is so bad, Ed Senior might just show up next season.

I doubt it, Ned Beatty retired from acting in 2013.

(I know, it was a joke. I was just pointing that out. 🙂 )

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, RocknRollZombie said:

And their little sisters were ever seen.

Lisa and Nicki appeared in the season five Christmas episode, when Darlene and David are snowed in at his house.  ("Santa's elves have orders to grab all the little children who try and catch a peek at Santa and poke their eyes out.  Why do you think they wear the pointy shoes?")

But that scene is missing from most, if not all, of the syndicated airings, so it's easy to forget.

[peacheslatour]

30 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Lisa and Nicki appeared in the season five Christmas episode, when Darlene and David are snowed in at his house.  ("Santa's elves have orders to grab all the little children who try and catch a peek at Santa and poke their eyes out.  Why do you think they wear the pointy shoes?")

But that scene is missing from most, if not all, of the syndicated airings, so it's easy to forget.

Huh. I don't think I've ever seen it.

[UYI]

2 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Huh. I don't think I've ever seen it.

It's on the season 5 DVD, at the very least. 

[UYI]

Quote

Becky also worked as a cashier back when Darlene was in 'art school' and felt that she was above that one good job opportunity that no one could believe she turned down.   Darlene was just coming home to hit dan up for money and going back to 'art school.'   Actually, didn't Becky also have a cashier job when she wanted a car?   

Becky worked at Bunz, a Hooters rip-off, after she and Mark moved back to Lanford from Minneapolis and Mark was still looking for work (and shortly after Darlene had left for Chicago). It's not what her parents wanted, of course, but she reasoned that she could help support her husband this way while he picked himself back up--and you know, once she realized, despite her best intentions, that trade school was not for him (and the move into a trailer was seen by both of them as a cheap, affordable way to live on their own, even though, again, Dan and Roseanne really didn't like it).

And yes, she went to work at Buy n' Bag when she wanted to buy a car. 

It was frustrating as a Becky fan to see these characters come back and have her working as a waitress in a Mexican restaurant, instead of having gone back to school at some point, but I do recognize her work ethic and am glad to at least see her making a valiant effort at running the Lunchbox, which is more than I can say for Darlene right now. 

Edited March 20, 2020 by UYI

[readster]

7 hours ago, UYI said:

It was frustrating as a Becky fan to see these characters come back and have her working as a waitress in a Mexican restaurant, instead of having gone back to school at some point, but I do recognize her work ethic and am glad to at least see her making a valiant effort at running the Lunchbox, which is more than I can say for Darlene right now. 

Becky became just such a let down, I know many fans of the show back then even said: "What happened to the smart Becky who wanted to make herself into someone, she turned into this?" They have had her on a better road, but when the bike shop closed and Mark was going to move. Becky was all: "life is over, and I will NEVER EVER EVER go to college now." Says who?

[Snow Apple]

Becky and Mark were also willing to live in a trailer trying to be independent instead of sponging off her parents. Can't say the same for Darlene right now. If a retail job (a perfectly honest job) is not good enough for Darlene despite having zero income, a trailer certainly won't be good enough.

She's lecturing Becky to go back to school to study hospitality and look down on her waitress job, but Becky was the one with her own apartment.

[Bastet]

6 hours ago, readster said:

when the bike shop closed and Mark was going to move. Becky was all: "life is over, and I will NEVER EVER EVER go to college now." Says who?

She was a teenager.  In the heat of the moment, thinking her boyfriend was moving to another state and she wasn't going to be able to go to college, she had a meltdown and got into an ugly fight with Dan.  In the immediate emotional aftermath of that, when Mark suggested they get married and she come with him, she said yes.

But when the dust settled, she came up with a plan to get her GED, attend community college, and then try again at university after they'd saved up some money (she wasn't going to be making good money, but Mark had a union job paying far more than he'd made working for Dan, and he wanted to help her go to college).

Off-screen, Mark lost that job, Original Recipe Becky was replaced by New Coke Becky, and the two of them returned to Lanford too stupid to live, let alone succeed, and when her old personality peeked its head back up, Mark was threatened by her ambition.  But, for a while there, she had a goal and a viable plan to achieve it.

[Irate Panda]

I wish they’d give DJ more to do, much like the original show, he is just sort of there and so is his daughter.  I know this is called the Conners but it should probably have been called Darlene.  I’m not sure if it’s bad writing or bad acting, but some of the episodes are hard to get through.  I never thought the acting was bad on the original show.  Mark is annoying to me, but again I’m not sure if it’s the acting or the writing . I hope Darlene does not have another kid, she can’t even take care of herself. I enjoy the Dan and Becky scenes and Jackie when she’s not a 100% insane.  Were they all so awful in the reboot when Roseanne was still on the show or did they get awful because she died?

Edited April 10, 2020 by Irate Panda

[peacheslatour]

Quote

Were they all so awful in the reboot when Roseanne was still on the show or did they get awful because she died?

They're a lot awfuller now.

[tessaray]

1 hour ago, Irate Panda said:

 Were they all so awful in the reboot when Roseanne was still on the show or did they get awful because she died?

Looking back, some things that bother me now were there but not quite as noticeable, mainly because Roseanne herself took up so much of the screentime.  

 

[Brn2bwild]

On 4/10/2020 at 12:45 PM, peacheslatour said:

They're a lot awfuller now.

I don't know... Roseanne was teaching Mary how to steal from supermarkets.

[peacheslatour]

9 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

I don't know... Roseanne was teaching Mary how to steal from supermarkets.

Yes but that was just Roseanne, now the whole family is horrible.