S03.E10: Karen

[The Crazed Spruce]

Quote

Hunted by Fisk and haunted by mistakes from her past, Karen seeks refuge at the church. Matt finally gets his shot, and Dex goes in for the kill.

[moonshine71]

Wow.

 

That was awesome.

 

And that final shot...

[rogvortex58]

Watching this the first time, and knowing the comics, I really thought this might have been it for Karen.

I was happy to be wrong though.

[moonshine71]

1 hour ago, rogvortex58 said:

Watching this the first time, and knowing the comics, I really thought this might have been it for Karen.

I was happy to be wrong though.

Yeah, I was right there w/ you. Especially w/ all the talk about Karen not believing she could redeem herself, I was worried that she would die sacrificing herself for someone. I literally held my breath when Dex threw that club at her, I hadn't even considered the idea of Fr. Lantom sacrificing himself(and "redeeming" himself for his deception of Matt).

[Pogojoco]

It was a pretty nifty how they set it up to look like the comic Karen Page death. Although, if they killed her, they'd have both a vengeful Daredevil and a Punisher situation, as Frank Castle does not take kindly to people threatening her, let alone killing her. 

It brings up the problem of logistics with all these crossovers- Daredevil is concerned that this guy he is fighting is a really good shot- if only Matt Murdock knew someone who is bulletproof. (Who is now free because his show just got cancelled.) 

[rozen]

2 hours ago, Pogojoco said:

It was a pretty nifty how they set it up to look like the comic Karen Page death. Although, if they killed her, they'd have both a vengeful Daredevil and a Punisher situation, as Frank Castle does not take kindly to people threatening her, let alone killing her. 

It brings up the problem of logistics with all these crossovers- Daredevil is concerned that this guy he is fighting is a really good shot- if only Matt Murdock knew someone who is bulletproof. (Who is now free because his show just got cancelled.) 

Right? Or if there happened to be another excellent sniper with psychopathic tendencies and an obsession with protecting Karen...

[Lady Calypso]

Man, I thought for SURE that Karen would have died at the end of this episode. Nobody in these shows gets a huge backstory like this only to survive at the end, so I am very happy that my intuition was wrong (that and I accidentally caught a glimpse of the first post on here so I assumed this was it for Karen, at least for the moment). I thought for sure that she'd sacrifice herself to save everyone else. Who knew that it would be Lantom? I guess him dying wasn't all that surprising, but I wasn't expecting it so soon.

Karen's backstory was hard to watch. I can fully see why she is the way that she is. And now I get why her father was so cold to her a couple of episodes ago. 

I know Karen survived this episode, but I do wonder if she'll survive by the end of the season. I still worry about her, since her entire goal has been to make amends for what happened when she was younger. I still see the possibility of a sacrifice, though maybe this had been the moment and it's come and gone.

Either way, at least for now, I appreciate the subversion of tropes with Karen surviving. 

[Cthulhudrew]

On 10/20/2018 at 7:16 AM, rogvortex58 said:

Watching this the first time, and knowing the comics, I really thought this might have been it for Karen.

I was pretty sure Karen wasn't going to die, but when I first saw the church scene in the trailer, I got a sinking suspicion that someone else was going to take that billy club for her instead. I had a feeling it was going to be Sister Maggie. I'm glad I was wrong about that, but when he mentioned that "he got a call from Maggie" and that she was away, I knew that was the death knell for Father Lantom. Which sucks, because I've loved his and Matt's confessionals since S1, and Peter McRobbie has been great in the role.

On 10/20/2018 at 9:15 PM, Pogojoco said:

It brings up the problem of logistics with all these crossovers- Daredevil is concerned that this guy he is fighting is a really good shot- if only Matt Murdock knew someone who is bulletproof. (Who is now free because his show just got cancelled.) 

Matt's pride is enough to keep Luke out of the picture, though (he has already told Sister Maggie "it's not their fight" when she suggested he leave it to others). What I find far more problematic is that Danny and/or Misty haven't run out to investigate the reappearance of Daredevil in Hell's Kitchen murdering people. Danny specifically had been tasked by Matt to take care of the city. I can only assume that S3 is supposed to take place after Danny and Ward left to travel the globe, but what about Misty? She's been known to overstep the bounds of her jurisdiction when needed.

[Future Cat Lady]

I know a lot of people want Frank and the other Defenders to show up. It would be logical if they did. However, the show is called Daredevil and they can’t have someone else show up and save the day. Also, the story this season is very dense and focused on one main storyline. Bringing the others characters for a couple of scenes could be distracting.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Future Cat Lady

[benteen]

I'm so glad that Karen avoided her comic book death scene which I totally did not expect.  I'm sorry we lost Lantom but they did set that up pretty thoroughly.

Karen's backstory definitely explains a lot about the person she's becoming.  They managed to keep some of Karen's darker backstory and thankfully avoided what Frank Miller turned her into at the beginning of his Born Again storyline.

Another awesome fight between Matt and Dex though I liked the first one better.  Really good episode.

[calliope1975]

Wrong thread.

Edited October 22, 2018 by calliope1975

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, calliope1975 said:

I really liked this season. With the Marvel Netflix shows, I tend to get bored around eps 9 and 10, but I stayed engaged through the entire season. Both Matt and Fish are so extra. Dex was great, and I loved that whenever they focused on him internally losing it, it sounded like flies or bees buzzing. 

I have to ?? at the bolded, because you’re the second poster I’ve seen call him that-you do mean Fisk, right?

Edited October 22, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[calliope1975]

4 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I have to ?? at the bolded, because you’re the second poster I’ve seen call him that-you do mean Fisk, right?

Yep, a typo. I'll fix it.

[rwlevin]

It was nice to see Lee Tergesen play a normal person for once and not another crazy psychopath.

[thuganomics85]

Not overly familiar with the comics, but I did get the sense that a lot of this was taken from the comics, so I'm not surprised that they borrowed heavily from when Karen apparently dies in that.  Also not surprised that they switched it up, since they're doing their own thing and they probably want to avoid any accusations of fringing their lead female character (and seriously: as mentioned above, Dex wouldn't just have Matt after him.  Frank Castle would be on a warpath as well.  If anything, dude was lucky he failed.)  Still sad about Father Lantom.  Peter McRobbie is always great.

Karen's backstory was rough to say the least.  At least Lee Tergesen wasn't playing a flat-out evil guy, but someone who was at a loss over his wife's death, which led him to making horrible business decisions, and mistreating his children on an emotional level.

Matt's now 0-2 against Dex.  He's going to need to step it up!

Sucks that Matt wasn't able to get to Fisk, but I hope Fisk will be at least unnerved that he was this close to getting taken down (and pissed when he finds out Karen is still alive.)

[blueray]

I haven't read the comic books so I had no knowledge of Karen's "death scene". I did however see the death of the priest coming. I honestly thought he was going to die while giving the sermon.  Matt put up a good fight but yeah he's lost both fights against Dex. I really wish he could recruit Frank (or any of the other defenders) to help.

I like that we finally got Karen's flashback episode. I remember there had hits in previous episodes. Like everyone blaming her for her brother's death. Of course the twist is she did kill him but it was an accident. I was thinking she shouldn't be driving right now and should call 911. Of course she wasn't in the right mind. The whole scene would have looked like she shot her boyfriend in defense of her brother. 

Edited October 26, 2018 by blueray

[Kel Varnsen]

That was amazing. Normally I hate it when shows go too far different with stories but Karen's flashback and how it was filmed was really good. I also liked the indications that Karen was really smart (helping other people explain their tests, getting into Georgetown). Even her brother's death was kind of predictable but still worked. They could have made the whole episode the flashback and I wouldn't have minded (Deborah Ann Woll killed it in those scenes). Although the fight was awesome. Interesting that Matt gave up his chance to kill Fisk.

On 10/21/2018 at 12:15 AM, Pogojoco said:

It was a pretty nifty how they set it up to look like the comic Karen Page death. Although, if they killed her, they'd have both a vengeful Daredevil and a Punisher situation, as Frank Castle does not take kindly to people threatening her, let alone killing her. 

It brings up the problem of logistics with all these crossovers- Daredevil is concerned that this guy he is fighting is a really good shot- if only Matt Murdock knew someone who is bulletproof. (Who is now free because his show just got cancelled.) 

I don't mind Luke not showing up, because he is boring but after what happened at the newspaper I find it hard to believe that Frank and Lieberman weren't keeping tabs on Karen.

On 10/23/2018 at 8:21 PM, rwlevin said:

It was nice to see Lee Tergesen play a normal person for once and not another crazy psychopath.

I thought itvwas funny how his Oz character was also in prison for driving while impaired/vehicular manslaughter.

[Danny Franks]

Karen as a wild party girl, dealing drugs to college students? I guess this is is far as they're going to nod towards Frank Miller's weird proclivities. Good. And, unlike with Miller, Karen doesn't have to pay for her 'womanly' crimes with her life.

It was clear that Karen wasn't cut out for that small, quiet life, running a diner and worrying about money. Her brother was obviously a good kid, and probably far more suited to that life.

That diner was a depressing place, though. It looked grubby, dingy and more than a little run down. Not the sort of place I'd ever consider eating.

Man, things escalated really bloody quickly! One minute she's fighting with her dad and brother over the future of the diner, the next Todd's trailer is on fire, and she's shooting him to rescue her brother. And then, to pile on top of the Page family's shitty luck, Karen crashes the car. It was not fun to watch. And it's easy to see how Karen became the closed off, solitary person we were introduced to at the start of Daredevil.

Maybe dad isn't as much of an asshole as he came off, when he was so abrupt with her on the phone. It's easy to see him picturing her bringing all her chaos home, and ruining whatever he has left.

As much as I'm glad to get more backstory on Karen, I wish they'd broken it up a little more, with present day stuff. Two thirds of the episode was giving us her backstory. But I did think Deborah Ann Woll did a really good job of playing Karen much younger, alternately angry and vulnerable.

Father Lantorn sacrificing himself for Karen was very apt. Catholic guilt is just all over this show (one of the really good things that Miller did with the Daredevil character).

I was annoyed it took Matt as long as it did, to go and save Karen instead of waiting for Fisk. It shouldn't have, even with him as determined as he was to kill Fisk. Karen was quicker in putting herself in Dex's sights, to protect the rest of the congregation.

I think Matt could have won that fight, if he'd not been so distracted with keeping other people safe. Third round, he has to make sure it's just him and Dex, with no one else around. He also needs to heal up, because he has to be so beaten up by now, that he can barely function.

Yes, I liked the nod to the comics, with Karen and Matt's positions reversed, under the cross.

[moonshine71]

35 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Karen as a wild party girl, dealing drugs to college students? I guess this is is far as they're going to nod towards Frank Miller's weird proclivities. Good. And, unlike with Miller, Karen doesn't have to pay for her 'womanly' crimes with her life.

To be fair, as rough as Miller was on Karen(I'm also glad the show didn't go that far), he didn't kill her. Kevin Smith did. And I doubt he was coming from a position of judgement about sex and drugs, that's definitely not his style. I'm pretty sure he's said he just didn't know what to do with her.

[Kel Varnsen]

34 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Karen as a wild party girl, dealing drugs to college students? I guess this is is far as they're going to nod towards Frank Miller's weird proclivities. Good. And, unlike with Miller, Karen doesn't have to pay for her 'womanly' crimes with her life.

To be fair, it was Kevin Smith who killed Karen. I was reading comics when he was writing Daredevil and I was surprised last night when I looked it up and she is still dead. Miller killed Elektra who came back to life.

Also any idea when Karen's flashback took place, before or after Avengers. Her not care about anything nothing to real live for takes on another interestimg level if it takes place after the world almost ended in an alien invasion.

[Future Cat Lady]

6 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

To be fair, it was Kevin Smith who killed Karen. I was reading comics when he was writing Daredevil and I was surprised last night when I looked it up and she is still dead. Miller killed Elektra who came back to life.

Also any idea when Karen's flashback took place, before or after Avengers. Her not care about anything nothing to real live for takes on another interestimg level if it takes place after the world almost ended in an alien invasion.

Deborah Ann Woll said that Karen was 19 in the flashback and that she’s now 33, the same age as her. So it would be around 2004.

[Rina99]

On 10/28/2018 at 11:10 PM, Future Cat Lady said:

Deborah Ann Woll said that Karen was 19 in the flashback and that she’s now 33, the same age as her. So it would be around 2004.

That makes sense with the Petey Pablo playing in the opening party scene. I was pretty sick of Karen by the end of the second season, but this season has done a lot of good things with her character.

[millennium]

2 hours ago, Rina99 said:

 I was pretty sick of Karen by the end of the second season, but this season has done a lot of good things with her character.

Karen and Foggy both, in my case.  But both characters are markedly different this season.  I don't mind them at all.

I'm having trouble buying that Dex is a better fighter than Matt, but whatever.   He looks so hate-ably smug in the Daredevil outfit.

Figures Kevin Smith killed Karen.   Guy annoys me.

[Anela]

I figured Lanton would die, when Matt was still pissed at him. That's the way these things always go. 

I'm actually really depressed, so I could have done without the first half of the episode. I ended up watching it, because I wouldn't want to see it when I felt better. She may have been on drugs, but she did protect her brother (which made me glad, because I'm sick of people choosing the boyfriend or girlfriend over their family). That POS hit her, and was going to kill her brother. I know he set his trailer on fire, but damn. So nobody told anyone that her brother set that on fire? And that was why he was beaten up, and Karen shot out of there?

I also hate it when the villain magically gets up and walks away, after being whacked like that (by a heavy cross?) and taking that kind of fall. WTF? This is not Halloween. I hope he's showing some damage in the next episode. 

I love Karen not taking shit from anyone, but it's sad how she got there. I'm glad she was able to find a bit of happiness with Matt and Foggy, at least before she killed Wesley (and even though she shot him more than once, it WAS self-defense - they were going to kill her). And her dad putting all of that financial stress on her, and then couldn't take her blowing up once? I don't care what she said, he's an ass for disowning her. 

[CertainJewel]

2 hours ago, Anela said:

I don't care what she said, he's an ass for disowning her.

I completely agree! She came to him and apologized but he still is not accepting her back. I have a child that is estranged and if he came to me I'd hug him and love him up. 

[staphdude]

On 2018-11-06 at 4:20 PM, Anela said:

And her dad putting all of that financial stress on her, and then couldn't take her blowing up once? I don't care what she said, he's an ass for disowning her. 

I see it differently. She was a piece of shit just as much as the dad. Both were dealing with their grief over the mother and then she was partially responsible for her brother’s death. I think it is consistent that he keeps her out of his life given what she did. 

[Anela]

13 hours ago, staphdude said:

I see it differently. She was a piece of shit just as much as the dad. Both were dealing with their grief over the mother and then she was partially responsible for her brother’s death. I think it is consistent that he keeps her out of his life given what she did. 

Her brother was part of the reason she was so wound up. She protected him and got him out of there, stopped her boyfriend from killing him, and then the accident happened. It wouldn't have, if her brother hadn't set fire to her boyfriend's trailer. That's a POS move. 

Edited November 11, 2018 by Anela

[RainbowBrite]

On ‎11‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 10:53 PM, Anela said:

Her brother was part of the reason she was so wound up. She protected him and got him out of there, stopped her boyfriend from killing him, and then the accident happened. It wouldn't have, if her brother hadn't set fire to her boyfriend's trailer. That's a POS move. 

I found it unrealistic that the brother lit the trailer on fire and then hung around to get beat up...what did he THINK was going to happen when the BF showed up?

[Ottis]

On 10/20/2018 at 8:16 AM, rogvortex58 said:

Watching this the first time, and knowing the comics, I really thought this might have been it for Karen.

I was happy to be wrong though.

Given Karen's ability to screw up everything she touches, with others paying the price, I'm not sure that would have been a bad thing. 

I skipped through a lot of Karen's back story, because whatever. It doesn't seem to have made her wiser. Pretty good with a gun, though. 

Matt needs to figure out how to beat Dex. He's DD after all. 

[JohnSmithSensei]

On 11/2/2018 at 4:36 PM, millennium said:

I'm having trouble buying that Dex is a better fighter than Matt, but whatever.   

He's not. Matt has kicked his ass in cqc and Dex only managed to tough it out because of the suit, then he creates space to put Matt at his mercy with improvised projectiles.

[sinkwriter]

On 11/2/2018 at 3:36 AM, millennium said:

I'm having trouble buying that Dex is a better fighter than Matt, but whatever.   He looks so hate-ably smug in the Daredevil outfit.

I know. I just want to punch him right in that smug face.

[edhopper]

Other super heroes not coming to help is always a question in comics. Just one of those comic tropes we just accept.

[LJones41]

This was a useless episode.  I really don't see how it had contributed to the overall episode.  Then again, I haven't really liked Karen Page since Season One . . . before the showrunners allowed her to get Ben Urich killed and later, take over his job.

Edited June 17, 2020 by LJones41