S03.E05: Toby

[ShadowFacts]

14 hours ago, PRgal said:

But is Zoe's issue related to Kevin being white or Kevin being a celebrity?  Or Kevin being her cousin's brother-in-law?  

Maybe all of the above or none of the above.  Maybe her issue is she just never wants to get too involved for fear of things not working out.  Didn't Beth say something at Kate's wedding about having her talk to Deja because she, Zoe, knows how it feels to be abandoned by a mother?  I could be remembering that wrong, but maybe Zoe has had a policy of leaving guys before they leave her, even if it's subconscious which it probably is. 

[PRgal]

7 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Maybe all of the above or none of the above.  Maybe her issue is she just never wants to get too involved for fear of things not working out.  Didn't Beth say something at Kate's wedding about having her talk to Deja because she, Zoe, knows how it feels to be abandoned by a mother?  I could be remembering that wrong, but maybe Zoe has had a policy of leaving guys before they leave her, even if it's subconscious which it probably is. 

And I suppose abandoning Kevin before word REALLY got out to the gossip sites is something Zoe is looking to do.  I mean, she doesn't seem to be the type who wants to be caught in anything mainstream.   

[love2lovebadtv]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I'm enjoying the writing for Zoe that shows the audience incidents from her point of view, whether or not she ends up thinking that Kevin is worth those teaching moments, we at home are learning things.  However, I do still think we need to remember that Zoe doesn't represent every black woman, anymore than the white women TV has shown us over the years are truly representative of white culture.  How many times has a comedy shown a white woman with pink curlers all over her head and a white or green mask on her face?  How many real women have we ever seen that way? I'm reminded of a line on, "Seinfeld,"  when Elaine was going off to spend some "girl time" with a new friend.  Jerry asked her if she was going to shop for ribbons and then have a pillow fight.  TV often portrays women doing housework in their expensive work clothes when I always change as soon as I get home. I guess they never get bleach spots since they only ever vacuum, nor any grease splatters since  cooking seems to consist of nothing more than endless celery chopping at the island.

4

I've said it before and I'll say it once more: a pillowcase is not a hair product. As a black woman who has never slept on a satin pillowcase and has rarely even encountered them, I agree that Zoe doesn't represent every black woman. I am not sure what the writers' intention was. Either they are proving Beth right in that Zoe has some issues and this is her way of looking for reasons to push Kevin away. Or they are telling us about challenges of interracial dating without really showing us any.  If it's the former, then they're doing a great job. If it's the latter, they have made poor choices in showing us real difficulties faced by interracial couples. I've been married interracially for 20 years and was in a long-term interracial relationship in high school and I think there were other ways to show things that Kevin might take for granted. Like maybe if Kevin asked a bunch of questions or looked at her funny when she said the pillowcase was for her hair. He did neither. I've truly felt my otherness through other people's relentless questioning but those people were always girls (in high school) and women (later on in life, at work). 

I doubt Beth even sleeps with a satin pillowcase since she wears a headscarf to bed. My own first cousin - also a black woman - is currently transitioning from the chemically processed hair she had since age 6 to her natural hair. We are very close and always have been. But she doesn't get it when I can't answer all her questions about this transition because I've never chemically processed my hair and haven't had the same experience as her. She has been going to a salon weekly for most of her life and this is all new for her. Although we talk about a whole lot of things, including hairstyles, she has never known what hair products I use and I've never known what products she uses because our hair care regimens are totally different although our hair textures are similar. I love that there is space for our natural hair in drug store aisles, on TV, and in the media. But when people use the jargon they've learned in natural hair blogs and YouTube, I'm lost. When I straighten my hair, people comment on that, too, because they assume I've used chemicals. It would be my business if I did, but nope - just a flat iron. So then that leads to more questions - again all from women. 

If the show is going to delve into the specificity of interracial relationships, they need to do better than a pillowcase and a cashier Kevin didn't even see. Otherwise, they should stick to the other 1000 issues presented in this episode. 

[dcubed]

21 hours ago, Drumpf1737 said:

No one said it was. The projection is real! I know about my non-black girlfriends' routines because all the TV shows and commercials for all of my 40+ years have shown them to me. That's the reason I noted in my post it's a product of racism that others don't have a genuine understanding of our culture.  It's only in the last 10 or 15 years there's been enough black women on TV or in movies to even get an inkling of our mindsets let alone our beauty regime--that's why Viola Davis' willingness to strip bare on How to Get Away with Murder is so groundbreaking. When Olivia Pope got her hair wet in the shower on Scandal some of us squealed because it was chipping away at our being locked out of basic norms on television.

Interracial dating and marriage have been legal since the 70s so I'm not sure what was political in this episodes.

I once froze in an interview--had a really uncomfortable flashback watching Beth. It's going to be really great to get a Beth episode. I look forward to getting better acquainted with her. I can't wait to see how Randall won her over. Did Kevin feed him all his lines?

This post is the closest to what I want to say.  Let’s start...I’m white.  I’ve been white all my life (hee).  I’ve also had dry curly, frizzy and at times kinky hair.  I have just started to embrace my natural hair...no more keratin, no more flat irons.  I bought a book called The Curly Girl Method and products by Cantu.  I learned about what products to use, what not to use, to sleep in a silk cap or on a silk pillowcase, to not wash my hair more than once a week.  Guess what else I learned?  This “method”, touted by a white woman who has sold thousands of books and products (DevaCurl) is touting the methods used by people of color forever!   Why didn’t I know this?  Because I didn’t see it anywhere growing up.  Because I wasn’t exposed to it.  Because those methods and products were “ethnic.”  Now that some Caucasian woman started selling it, it is everywhere.  I knew all about how to care for long/silky hair because that was what we were shown was the standard for beauty.  And the products and methods were there but they weren’t well marketed until someone not black “discovered “ this method.  That is the racism that we need to understand.  And yes, seeing Viola Davis taking off her wig, her lashes, talk about not having hours to go to the beauty shop and then seeing Beth braid and help Deja with her hair, it’s pretty groundbreaking.  

I wish people would stop using racism and bigotry synonymously.  They are not the same.  Racism Is a belief in the superiority of one race over another.  It requires a power imbalance.  So even if a black person calls a white person a honky, they are not being racist.  They are being hateful, bigoted and prejudiced but not racist unless they have the power to affect one’s ability to live where they want to live, obtain gainful employment or enact laws that are detrimental to a race.

As for this show, I am all for them showing us the difficulties of interracial dating, not just from what others think but what assumptions each person within the couple may make about the other.  Maybe we’ll all learn and be a little more tolerant and reflective of our own assumptions and prejudices.  

[Johnny Dollar]

To live in Alpine, not only would Randall and Beth have to be rich, they’d have to be celebrity rich. It’s typically one of the most expensive areas in the country. When does the fact that neither one of them is employed while trying to rehab a run down apartment building start to affect the family?  Unless Randall made a fortune on cloud futures. 

[dreadfulLeigh]

On 10/24/2018 at 9:41 AM, TV Diva Queen said:

anyone catch in the Miguel/Jack flashback, that Jack was buying an insurance policy and Miguel said "you don't need insurance, you're SuperJack" (paraphrased), do you think that Jack didn't  buy the policy and that is another reason why Miguel is helping the Pearson's out so much?  I know Jack asked him to watch out for them, but it just seemed odd.  

Or, conversely, he was purchasing life insurance and chose to run into the burning house again because of some impending, life ending medical condition? It’d be just like Jack to go out as a Hero™️ rather than open up to his wife/family about something serious that he can’t Super Jack his way out of (and I say this as someone who general likes Jack).

[dreadfulLeigh]

On 10/24/2018 at 10:52 AM, Evagirl said:

Jack and Rebecca's story is what drew me to this show.  Their chemistry is amazing.  Then Jack's relationship with his kids is what kept me watching the show.  Now every week I ask why I am still investing my time into this show.  Kate is insufferable.  You want kids that bad, then lose some damn weight and make it easier to get pregnant!  Man, she trashes everybody, her mom (who's shown her nothing but love), Toby (who's devotion to her is undeserving), even strangers.  IMO, she has always felt that she and Kevin are twins and Randall just the adopted brother.  I don't feel like she nor Kevin has ever bought into the "Big Three" that Jack was so over the top about.

 

This bugs the shit out of me every time she or someone states “the twins”. Yes, of course, biologically, they are twins and saying we were/are triplets would be awkward as fuck standing next to their black brother or explaining their dead sibling. But. But. BUT they were raised together since newborns—NEWBORN BABIES! Why the qualifiers? Why the distinction? The degree of melanin in Randals skin is enough to suggest he is not your dna blood triplet, but gezzum, you’ve know him since the first few hours of his/your life. Give it a rest. 

Edited October 29, 2018 by dreadfulLeigh
I shouldn’t post with grumpy, clingy children and poor autocorrect lol

[Katy M]

26 minutes ago, Johnny Dollar said:

To live in Alpine, not only would Randall and Beth have to be rich, they’d have to be celebrity rich. It’s typically one of the most expensive areas in the country. When does the fact that neither one of them is employed while trying to rehab a run down apartment building start to affect the family?  Unless Randall made a fortune on cloud futures. 

Actually, you make a good point, whether or not you meant to.  Randall is a mathematical genius.  And, his work history is with investing, even if I don't understand.  I bet they do make quite a bit of money on investments.

My grandmother made more off the investments my grandfather made than I did working.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Katy M

[Soup333]

On 10/28/2018 at 4:49 AM, icemiser69 said:

I really don't think Toby and Kate should be having a baby.  Nature and nurture won't be kind to that child.  I foresee that kid being very messed up, because his or her parents are very messed up.

How much do you want to bet that when they go in for an ultrasound there'll be more than one baby? Wouldn't surprise me at all.

[BoogieBurns]

On 10/28/2018 at 12:54 AM, bros402 said:

My dad's 1st cousin 1x removed (or 2x removed, I forget) invented the slow cooker!

Tell your cousin he killed Jack. Ask him to apologize.

[BoogieBurns]

4 hours ago, dreadfulLeigh said:

The degree of melatonin in Randals skin is enough to suggest he is not your dna blood triplet, but gezzum, you’ve know him since the first few hours of his/your life. Give it a rest. 

Randall's skin makes us all so sleepy.

[Drumpf1737]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

To live in Alpine, not only would Randall and Beth have to be rich, they’d have to be celebrity rich. It’s typically one of the most expensive areas in the country. When does the fact that neither one of them is employed while trying to rehab a run down apartment building start to affect the family?  Unless Randall made a fortune on cloud futures. 

Chris Rock said one of his neighbors in Alpine NJ was a dentist so it's entirely possible for Randall and Beth to live there. Remember he bought a $100K+ car for cash.  The weather futures markets also affect farming/food production, big-Agra so that's probably pretty lucrative.

[topanga]

12 minutes ago, Drumpf1737 said:

Chris Rock said one of his neighbors in Alpine NJ was a dentist so it's entirely possible for Randall and Beth to live there. Remember he bought a $100K+ car for cash.  The weather futures markets also affect farming/food production, big-Agra so that's probably pretty lucrative.

Oh, yeah. His neighbors were Mary J Blige, Patrick Ewing, and a dentist. He didn’t invent anything, didn’t make anything. Just a dentist. (Chris Rock’s words). 

I don’t know if Randall and Beth can sustain being unemployed for the long term, but it sounds like they were in the process of building wealth, not just being rich—also a Chris Rock bit. And they probably had one of the smaller homes in their development. Remember, their house only has 3 bedrooms plus Beth’s office. 

Edited October 29, 2018 by topanga

[dreadfulLeigh]

1 hour ago, BoogieBurns said:

Randall's skin makes us all so sleepy.

Thanks autocorrect. Also, true. Like in a dreamy way lol. 

[dreadfulLeigh]

Just now, icemiser69 said:

I am hoping that the medical professional puts Toby on a placebo instead of a lower dosage of his regular medication.  I tend to wonder how much of what is going on in Toby's head is really a mental health issue, and how much of it is just the fear of going off of his medication and the pressure he felt in trying to have a baby.  Panic attacks.

He really, really, reallllyyyyyyy shouldn’t have married as big a taker as Kate. If this show had ever showed that Toby had any friends, I would have liked--since this was entitled “Toby” after all—hearing his perspective on having a baby and the emotional and financially pressures of IVF (since he can’t really talk to himself about it, well, I suppose if he’d been seeing his therapist...or Pearson style and just word vomit on some random person).

IVF ain’t cheap. Does his insurance cover it? I don’t really remember what Kate does...rando singing gigs? But I’m sure it doesn’t provide health insurance or cover ivf. Also, considering how much (read: all) of her character/personality is derived from her weight (what’s not about Jack, that is), I’m surprised they didn’t touch on the effect of weight gain on ivf drugs. Even as a quick aside. I mean, you’re fat. You have to get fatter to make a baby. Then you might get fatter gestating the baby. It’s seems like a natural downward spiral for her. 

[Katy M]

10 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I am hoping that the medical professional puts Toby on a placebo instead of a lower dosage of his regular medication.  I tend to wonder how much of what is going on in Toby's head is really a mental health issue, and how much of it is just the fear of going off of his medication and the pressure he felt in trying to have a baby.  Panic attacks.

How do you explain what was going on with him before he ever went on medication, then?

1 minute ago, dreadfulLeigh said:

If this show had ever showed that Toby had any friends,

He had that one friend that he brought to watch football at Kate's house.

[ShadowFacts]

16 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I am hoping that the medical professional puts Toby on a placebo instead of a lower dosage of his regular medication.  I tend to wonder how much of what is going on in Toby's head is really a mental health issue, and how much of it is just the fear of going off of his medication and the pressure he felt in trying to have a baby.  Panic attacks.

I think that would be malpractice for a professional who knew that Toby had been helped by a medication for x amount of time, and then in distress when off it, to experiment on him with placebo. 

[PRgal]

Randall's salary when he was working in the investment world was probably around $500-600K, give or take.  He would probably be able to afford a home in Alpine - especially a "smaller" house like theirs (I think it's TECHNICALLY 4 bedroom - just one is used for Beth's office).  

[Haleth]

I'm guessing that the secret Miss Saigon family will turn out to be Nick's and when he died Jack took care of them. Of course.

Great casting of the young Tobys.  Where is the director finding these gem kids?

So what happens if Kate miscarries again?  They'll repeat all this again and again...

I like the Miguel stuff, how he was always there in an emergency. No wonder Rebecca eventually turns to him.

My mom always used a silk pillowcase for her hair and she was white. I think most guys would be clueless, regardless of who they are with.

[Brookside]

I kind of wanted the nice guy who went after Kate to compliment her to pull out his wallet when she kept going on about her gas bill.  Just to give her something else to whitter on about later, "This guy felt so bad about my terrible, awful, very-bad life that he paid me extra."

[Johnny Dollar]

Jack has to easily be in the top five Fictional Fathers of All Time (just above George Bailey, but badly trailing Atticus Finch). With that said, his kids sure did turn out pretty effed up. With the giant pedestal the entire family built for him it would be nice if they emulated his selflessness just once. 

[Guest]

The topic here is the episode “Toby.” We are getting way off-topic with anecdotes, census definitions, and more.

Also, please remember that the overarching rule on the site is to be civil to your fellow posters.

[theatremouse]

On 10/27/2018 at 5:18 PM, PRgal said:

But is Zoe's issue related to Kevin being white or Kevin being a celebrity?  Or Kevin being her cousin's brother-in-law?  

It played to me like all of the above.

[Katy M]

17 hours ago, Haleth said:

So what happens if Kate miscarries again?  They'll repeat all this again and again...

I don't think they have enough money for that. And, I think they only ended up with three fertilized eggs, so the most they can do it is three times.  Because, there's no way the doctor is going to do a second egg extraction after Kate had trouble coming out of the anaesthesia.

[PRgal]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I don't think they have enough money for that. And, I think they only ended up with three fertilized eggs, so the most they can do it is three times.  Because, there's no way the doctor is going to do a second egg extraction after Kate had trouble coming out of the anaesthesia.

I wonder if Kate will look into donor eggs.  But she probably won't, since she SO wants to use her own genetic material.

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I don't think they have enough money for that. And, I think they only ended up with three fertilized eggs, so the most they can do it is three times.  Because, there's no way the doctor is going to do a second egg extraction after Kate had trouble coming out of the anaesthesia.

It could be that she will have a very early loss, which actually happens a lot in infertility treatments.  Sometimes known as a chemical pregnancy, this occurs when the initial pregnancy test comes back positive, but the pregnancy never grows and the woman starts bleeding an her test is now negative.  In a way, it's because we are too good at detecting pregnancy these days and, with blood work done at a good lab, the test can measure very small amounts of pregnancy hormone literally weeks before the pregnancy can be detected with an ultrasound.  Nowadays, the blood pregnancy test can be positive days before the next period is even due, let alone missed.  Back in the dark ages, a woman wouldn't have even known she'd conceived and then her period might come a day or two late or be heavier than usual because she'd actually conceived but the pregnancy failed to implant but she never knew.  IVF patients end up knowing about these early losses because  the blood work is done so soon after the embryo transfer.

[doodlebug]

4 minutes ago, PRgal said:

I wonder if Kate will look into donor eggs.  But she probably won't, since she SO wants to use her own genetic material.

They've kind of painted her into a corner with her comments about wanting a baby that looks like Jack, haven't they?  Kate doesn't have any female relatives on Jack's side who could give her an egg.....Unless... Maybe the Vietnamese woman that Kevin just found out about... Hmmmm.

In real life, if she is going to use donor eggs, her doctor would probably recommend she consider a gestational surrogate too.  Or, at least, she should.

I don't see how the show can realistically do a pregnancy, delivery and new motherhood storyline for Kate at this time.  It seems like her marriage and job issues are more than enough at present.

[PRgal]

32 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

They've kind of painted her into a corner with her comments about wanting a baby that looks like Jack, haven't they?  Kate doesn't have any female relatives on Jack's side who could give her an egg.....Unless... Maybe the Vietnamese woman that Kevin just found out about... Hmmmm.

In real life, if she is going to use donor eggs, her doctor would probably recommend she consider a gestational surrogate too.  Or, at least, she should.

I don't see how the show can realistically do a pregnancy, delivery and new motherhood storyline for Kate at this time.  It seems like her marriage and job issues are more than enough at present.

Speaking of a gestational surrogate, if all she wanted was a child with her own genetic material, then she should have considered a surrogate in the first place.  Some people really need to come to terms and accept the fact that they can't or shouldn't be pregnant for health reasons.  Speaking from personal experience.

[Soup333]

50 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

They've kind of painted her into a corner with her comments about wanting a baby that looks like Jack, haven't they?  Kate doesn't have any female relatives on Jack's side who could give her an egg.....Unless... Maybe the Vietnamese woman that Kevin just found out about... Hmmmm.

In real life, if she is going to use donor eggs, her doctor would probably recommend she consider a gestational surrogate too.  Or, at least, she should.

I don't see how the show can realistically do a pregnancy, delivery and new motherhood storyline for Kate at this time.  It seems like her marriage and job issues are more than enough at present.

I don't see this stopping them.

16 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Speaking of a gestational surrogate, if all she wanted was a child with her own genetic material, then she should have considered a surrogate in the first place.  Some people really need to come to terms and accept the fact that they can't or shouldn't be pregnant for health reasons.  Speaking from personal experience.

Agreed but I wonder if the cost is a factor here. Have they ever even mentioned how much this costs or if insurance is covering this whole thing? Seems like that would have also been one of Toby's concerns. I would have thought that it'd be hard for someone of her weight to get approved, not just by the doctor but by her insurance - if that's how they're paying for it.

[doodlebug]

20 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

I don't see this stopping them.

Agreed but I wonder if the cost is a factor here. Have they ever even mentioned how much this costs or if insurance is covering this whole thing? Seems like that would have also been one of Toby's concerns. I would have thought that it'd be hard for someone of her weight to get approved, not just by the doctor but by her insurance - if that's how they're paying for it.

They've never mentioned the cost of anything to anyone on this show.  Everyone comes and goes, quits their job, travels cross-country and otherwise behaves as if money is no object, ever.  Considering they were perfectly willing to lay out whatever amount was needed to do IVF even after being warned there was a very low chance of success, I suspect the show would gloss over surrogacy, too, other than the massive amount of whining, wailing and petulance that Kate will provide.  For that matter, Randall and Kevin both seem to be quite wealthy and I am sure if Kate wanted money for a surrogacy, either one would hand it over without a second thought.  Randall hasn't worked in over a year but he's still buying run down buildings and flying cross country on a moment's notice; so I guess he made a fortune with his weather futures and doesn't need to pinch pennies.  Kevin, of course, has had a successful TV and now film career and has undoubtedly earned a 7 figure salary for the past few years; so it wouldn't present a hardship for him, either.

However, just as it won't stop them giving Kate quintuplets in addition to a severely depressed husband, a ridiculous desire to be a professional singer without any training and the massive chip on her shoulder as the only Daddy's girl in the history of the world to lose her father as a teen; we will probably never be given details on how Kate and Toby are able to afford high tech fertility treatments.

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, doodlebug said:

I don't see how the show can realistically do a pregnancy, delivery and new motherhood storyline for Kate at this time.  It seems like her marriage and job issues are more than enough at present.

What I don't understand about this storyline is why they went from her achieving a pregnancy accidentally, then losing it, then pretty quickly to IVF, because I don't think that much time passed.  If she could get pregnant once, wouldn't they have tried for a year or something?  I don't know, I'm asking.  Also, since she lost one pregnancy, I can't see them (the writers) piling on another loss, then going to adoption or surrogacy.  I won't be surprised if this IVF is going to be totally successful, but I agree it isn't realistic she is even going this route in the first place. 

4 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

If going off of the medication puts Toby in a bed ridden state, then I don't see how Toby gets any better.  Has the medication become a crutch for Toby or is it something that he truly needs for the rest of his life?  That is why I was talking about a placebo in an earlier post.

Some people can get off medication, some need it long-term.  Some go on, then off, then have to go back on, or on a different one.  It's complicated, it isn't just a matter of thought patterns being retrained. 

[CrystalBlue]

21 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Unfortunately I can't answer that.  I have only seen the series this season, so I am trying to catch up on all that has gone on since the show started.

In general I thought the entire goal was for people to be on anti-anxiety or antidepressant medication along with talk therapy for a period of time.  That the goal would  be some sort of attempt to retrain the brain out of those negative and/or anxiety ridden thought patterns and eventually ween people off of the medication part of it, but continue talk therapy if needed. 

If going off of the medication puts Toby in a bed ridden state, then I don't see how Toby gets any better.  Has the medication become a crutch for Toby or is it something that he truly needs for the rest of his life?  That is why I was talking about a placebo in an earlier post.

That's not how it works.  People who suffer from depression don't conjure up bad thoughts; it is a chemical imbalance in the brain that is uncontrollable more or less.  There are therapies you can do to improve your chances of not going into a depression, and to help your medications work well, such as being aware of your exercise and environmental stressors.  Not all depression is an anxiety attack.  Panic attacks are a different thing.  People who use antidepressants are not using them as a crutch.  The struggle is real, as they say.

[CrystalBlue]

19 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I agree with you.  That said, I do think that Toby ought to be trying something else to see if anything helps him more than his current medication.

The medications Toby was on seemed to be working well, and Kate was unaware of his childhood struggles or if he told her, she hadn't seen Toby in a depressive state since she met him.  Toby only went off the rails when he flushed his meds down the toilet.

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

What I don't understand about this storyline is why they went from her achieving a pregnancy accidentally, then losing it, then pretty quickly to IVF, because I don't think that much time passed.  If she could get pregnant once, wouldn't they have tried for a year or something?  I don't know, I'm asking.  Also, since she lost one pregnancy, I can't see them (the writers) piling on another loss, then going to adoption or surrogacy.  I won't be surprised if this IVF is going to be totally successful, but I agree it isn't realistic she is even going this route in the first place. 

Some people can get off medication, some need it long-term.  Some go on, then off, then have to go back on, or on a different one.  It's complicated, it isn't just a matter of thought patterns being retrained. 

At Kate's age, most gynecologists would recommend fertility evaluation after 6 months of trying without success.  However, the next step is not in vitro; it is a thorough evaluation of both Kate and Toby and then, presuming a specific cause cannot be found; starting with lesser treatments than in vitro.  

Depression is a real illness and expecting that thought processes can be retrained to cure it is like expecting the pancreas can be retrained to cure diabetes.  Sure, just like diabetes, there are some changes that can help like diet and exercise.  Understanding the disease and what to expect, how to detect subtle changes that can lead to worsening of the disease is helpful; but, in some cases, no matter how hard the person tries, they are not going to be able to handle their depression without medications just as some diabetics, no matter how closely they follow the diet and exercise plan, are going to need medications.  Toby has been battling depression for many years, I expect he has tried going without medication at some time in the past, probably more than once, and it didn't work.  No shame in that anymore than a diabetic who can't manage his illness without medication is at fault.  From what I saw on the show, I think Toby was aware of what would probably happen, recognized it when it did and tried to get back on his meds before things got out of hand.

[love2lovebadtv]

On 10/29/2018 at 4:20 PM, PRgal said:

Randall's salary when he was working in the investment world was probably around $500-600K, give or take.  He would probably be able to afford a home in Alpine - especially a "smaller" house like theirs (I think it's TECHNICALLY 4 bedroom - just one is used for Beth's office).  

Yep, and that's just a base salary. Bonuses and other perks can be insane. 

[lucindabelle]

Flushing pills down the toilet to signal “I’m not going to take these angmore” needs to go in the “things that happen on television and not in real life.”

 

its not like meds are a quart of mint chip or a bag of Fritos with your name on them.

i have antibiotics from years back. I found Xanax from 2006 when I was writing my dissertation (I took one after the shooting).

toby flushing his pills is like women who want to get pregnant flushing birth control down sink. Why?

and as someone who does take some controlled substances (migraine meds) they WILL give you a few to tide you over if it’s close to renewal time and doctor can’t be reached.

toby should have called his doctor first and if he didn’t then the oharmacy should have and any decent doc would have given him something and made an appointment for him. 

His condition is too chronic to risk his staying cold turkey for long. 

Zoe: I didn’t like the way she mixed going to Kevin’s premiere. She was kind of a jerk and hurt him. 

Edited October 31, 2018 by lucindabelle

[Kroliosis]

On 10/27/2018 at 7:46 PM, Soup333 said:

I don’t think the true issue was the pillowcase. That’s surface level conversation. What Zoe was concerned about was the totality of their relationship. She was thinking longer-term. Can I do this? Is he worth the trouble?

The Veteran’s wife understood this immediately, which is why she said it sounds exhausting. 

I think I am the only one that took "it sounds exhausting" as a sarcastic eye roll worthy comment.  Here is a 60/70 year old woman who lived through the civil rights movement, possibly segregation and is the wife of a Vietnam Vet with one foot!  That woman has seen some shit and had a relationship tested!

I also am surprised Zoe isn't filming all this for a documentary.

[maddie965]

You know what I don't get? Why is Kevin being so neglected this season? It's like we're following his story from a distance. He left rehab, fell in love, finally got all the validation he ever wanted, became a movie star and...nothing? I want to know what's inside his head. How he feels about it all. What are his plans. How he feels about Zoe. I mean, we got that Vietnan story, but so far it's all about Jack. Hopefully we'll get a full Kevin-centric episode, but I'm not holding my breath. 

Of all the Pearsons, he's the one who has showed more growth. He's becoming the man he should be. I wanna see it happening.

Edited October 31, 2018 by maddie965

[drafan]

My shallow take-aways from this episode:

NOBODY would stop and get a piano at a tag sale and then shove it through someone's front door. And Rebecca didn't hear the ruckus this would've produced?

There is NO WAY on earth that Kate would've been considered at Berklee merely with a little demo tape. It would take a lot more than that. I know she didn't go, but geez.

NOBODY in 2018 would notice or care that Kevin and Zoe were together.

That prom date father too...what was the year ? Like 1998? That scene was more like 1958.

Mandy Moore does NOT wear a size small (some past episode). She's 5'10" for starters, and not exactly Audrey Hepburn-sized.

STOP with the "singing" in this show. Please stop.

My head was spinning from all the flash-back-and-forth hair lengths.

Dan Lauria!!

[AmandaPanda]

On 10/23/2018 at 9:45 PM, tennisgurl said:

I thought the Toby backstory was pretty good, so much so that I actually wanted to see more of it. I think his depression adds a lot more context to his big over the top antics, and manic pixie dream guy tendencies. Everyone leaves him when he "gets the sads" so he desperately tries to overcompensate by being super happy and exciting. Its really quite tragic. And now he has ended up with Kate, who is already moody and likes being the center of attention, so he can focus all his energy on her. I dont blame her for not noticing something was off with him, but i do hope we see her being a supportive spouse in future episodes, and not to get annoyed with him for being depressed like every other person apparently has. 

This is why I found it so believable that he impulsively flushed his meds. He was panicking that he would be the reason Kate wouldn't be able to have a baby. That led to a thought spiral that he needed to have a quick fix and he latched on to the doctor saying that anti-depressants lower sperm count. That was an easy fix and in his mind, it's what needed to happen to ensure he could make Kate happy so she didn't leave him. There's no rational thought that goes into going of psychiatric meds cold turkey. 

On 10/23/2018 at 10:29 PM, breezy424 said:

Lastly, I don't know of a doctor who wouldn't prescribe an antidepressant renewal over the phone for someone who has been on one for a long period of time.  Any doctor knows you just don't stop any of those medications.   Cold turkey?  Nope....

I do because it happened to me. I was out of refills of a medication I'd been on for nearly a decade. My doctor wouldn't prescribe more than two months of refills without me coming into the office, even though neither of the meds were controlled substances and I'd been on the same dosage for years. Granted it was also a $175 co-pay with insurance, so that's why he had that ridiculous requirement. I had to move suddenly from Maryland to Missouri. I called in asking if he would please give me a couple months of refills until I could get reestablished with a psychiatrist back home. He told me I had to come into the office. His next available appointment wasn't until after I was moving. I begged for him to make an exception and he essentially told me "tough luck" and hung up the phone. Fortunately, my psychiatrist back home wasn't a total asswipe and refilled my prescriptions even though I hadn't been to see her in a year and a half. 

On 10/24/2018 at 8:29 AM, kili said:

ChiChi basically told him his campaign thing was going to be a bust. He asked her why his name was buried in the small print and she said it was because he wanted her to fill the restaurant. 

I feel like ChiChi isn't at all interested in helping Randall. She sees him as amusing and wants to keep him around to entertain her. 

On 10/24/2018 at 12:29 PM, Blakeston said:

I've been expecting the flash-forward to be about Beth for awhile. I won't be surprised at all if they reveal that the reason Beth stopped the interview wasn't because she was emotional, but because she got momentarily disoriented, or something to that effect.

This very well could have been Beth's first major failure in life. If she went straight into that job after college/grad school and was excelling in it, the way she's acting makes sense. She didn't see the end of the job coming. Now she's having to relive that in an interview. She's embarrassed and is still questioning what she did wrong. She's probably stressed because her income is needed to keep the family afloat. She was caught off guard and didn't know how to respond in that moment. 

On 10/24/2018 at 6:54 PM, ams1001 said:

It depends on the drug, and the person, but yes, it's generally at least a couple weeks (I was on Effexor, which is an SNRI, similar to SSRIs) and it took only a couple weeks for me to start feeling an improvement; I took Paxil a few years earlier and didn't feel a difference after about three months (at which point I gave up on it), so it really varies. According to NAMI's page on sertraline, physical symptoms like sleep/energy levels/appetite may show improvement in 1-2 weeks but improvements in depressed mood and lack of interest in activities can take up to 6-8 weeks. (On the other hand, when I went off Effexor after 6 years (with the help of my doctor, and wow, that was 10 years ago, now!), the withdrawal symptoms started within 2 days, and there was no hiding the dizziness (I took a week off of work and stocked up on easy-fix foods so I wouldn't have to leave home), so Toby not seeming to show any symptoms except his short temper before the movie premier was a little unrealistic to me. (Fun fact I learned when I was researching withdrawal so I'd know what to expect...the faster-acting the drug, the worse the withdrawal effects tend to be. Thankfully I didn't get any of the scarier-sounding symptoms.)

I have no idea if taking a several-week break and starting again would change the way a person would respond to it, though.

I've had times where I've had to be off meds for a couple weeks due to not being able to afford a refill until my paycheck came in or the never-ending nightmare of computer databases not being able to figure out what my last name is. I spent two weeks this summer going back and forth between the pharmacy and my doctor's office with the doctor saying they sent the refill and the pharmacy saying they hadn't received it. It took about a week for the withdrawal to get bad enough that I was suicidal. When I went back on it, though, it took about a week for me to feel stable again. 

On 10/24/2018 at 9:25 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I’m with you. I don’t want to sound unfriendly but I don’t fly to make new BFFs or to get a free faux therapy session. I’m on this plane because it’s faster than driving or rowing a boat to get wherever I’m going. On a few occasions, I’ve had some interesting conversations with strangers but for the most part I’m fine reading, taking a nap, or just listening to music.

Dear lord, this! I always keep my earbuds in on the plane because one of the first questions people always want to ask is: what do you do for a living? As soon as I say I'm a social worker, I might as well start billing for the free therapy. It's like I have a giant sign over my head that says "Please tell me your entire life story." 

On 10/30/2018 at 3:41 PM, icemiser69 said:

Unfortunately I can't answer that.  I have only seen the series this season, so I am trying to catch up on all that has gone on since the show started.

In general I thought the entire goal was for people to be on anti-anxiety or antidepressant medication along with talk therapy for a period of time.  That the goal would  be some sort of attempt to retrain the brain out of those negative and/or anxiety ridden thought patterns and eventually ween people off of the medication part of it, but continue talk therapy if needed. 

If going off of the medication puts Toby in a bed ridden state, then I don't see how Toby gets any better.  Has the medication become a crutch for Toby or is it something that he truly needs for the rest of his life?  That is why I was talking about a placebo in an earlier post.

Talk therapy is absolutely beneficial for building coping skills and learning to try to retrain your thoughts. It's also very helpful when the anxiety or depression is situational and is due to a specific life event. However, chronic anxiety and depression almost always have a medication component forever. I have type 2 bipolar disorder, which includes long bouts of major depression. No amount of talk therapy in the world is going to fix the fact that my brain doesn't create enough of the chemicals I need to function. That's what the mood stabilizer is for.

[chocolatine]

I must be an outlier, but I don't mind when people talk to me on a plane. I don't usually initiate conversations beyond a friendly greeting, but if my seat mate wants to talk, I engage. I'll always have the opportunity to read the book I'd been planning to read some other time, but I will likely never meet that person again. Listening to someone talk about their life is kind of like reading a book of which there's only one copy. :)

[Nanners]

  

Quote

 

ON 10/29/2018 AT 8:53 AM,  KATY MSAID: 

To live in Alpine, not only would Randall and Beth have to be rich, they’d have to be celebrity rich. It’s typically one of the most expensive areas in the country. When does the fact that neither one of them is employed while trying to rehab a run down apartment building start to affect the family?  Unless Randall made a fortune on cloud futures. 

 

Quote

Chris Rock said one of his neighbors in Alpine NJ was a dentist so it's entirely possible for Randall and Beth to live there. Remember he bought a $100K+ car for cash.  The weather futures markets also affect farming/food production, big-Agra so that's probably pretty lucrative.

I actually grew up in the town adjacent to Alpine; parts of my town are basically the same neighborhood (I did not grow up on that side of the tracks).  Alpine kids who went to *gasp* public school went to my high school. It’s so very true what Chris Rock said, many of my classmates parents were “just” dentists, lawyers, etc.  There’s a wide range of luxury though, not every single house is necessarily breathtaking.  I can see Randall’s house there, but with like a heated driveway.  Though on the show it looks like a stereotypical gated community. Alpine is not gated and it’s more so hilly and woodsy.

A classmate’s father apparently was the architect for Mary J. Blige’s house, but TBH, that house was uggo.  

[topanga]

11 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I must be an outlier, but I don't mind when people talk to me on a plane. I don't usually initiate conversations beyond a friendly greeting, but if my seat mate wants to talk, I engage. I'll always have the opportunity to read the book I'd been planning to read some other time, but I will likely never meet that person again. Listening to someone talk about their life is kind of like reading a book of which there's only one copy. :)

I really admire you, chocolatine. And don’t ever change. But everything you love about interacting with strangers makes me die inside a little. LOL.  

[RedbirdNelly]

On ‎10‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 9:11 PM, ams1001 said:

Pearsons. And apparently anyone who joins, or may join, the family.

Teen Randall is adorable when he smiles. 

 

Teen Randall also does a laugh that sounds exactly like adult Randall. I'm sure they intentionally worked on that but well done.

I do hope Randall drops his campaign. Even if you can legally run while not living there, it's a bad idea. I would not vote for you, Randall, unless I had serious issues with the current guy.

[RedbirdNelly]

On ‎10‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 9:33 PM, Neurochick said:

Yes, that cashier, what a bitch.

Strange that Kevin didn’t know about the pillowcase, his brother is black, as is his sister in law.   I was waiting for him to tell Zoe that he had it delivered because he knew why she needed it.

I don’t get why folks are upset with Zoe and the army buddy’s wife.  I thought their conversation was very real.  Some white folks don’t get it.

I assumed Kevin didn't know about the pillowcase because his experience with bedroom stuff is with Randall, a guy. I doubt he's spent time in a room where Beth is sleeping. I may be wrong (white person here; just learned about the pillowcase thing from this episode), but it seems like it is more likely an issue for women (with longer hair) than men (Randall's hair is normally pretty short).

[Scarlett45]

13 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I must be an outlier, but I don't mind when people talk to me on a plane. I don't usually initiate conversations beyond a friendly greeting, but if my seat mate wants to talk, I engage. I'll always have the opportunity to read the book I'd been planning to read some other time, but I will likely never meet that person again. Listening to someone talk about their life is kind of like reading a book of which there's only one copy. :)

I agree with you. We are two peas in a pod. 

1 hour ago, topanga said:

I really admire you, chocolatine. And don’t ever change. But everything you love about interacting with strangers makes me die inside a little. LOL.  

Ha!!! Awww. 

[RedbirdNelly]

On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 10:51 AM, sigmaforce86 said:

The racism in the store is one thing; Zoe being upset about the pillowcase was a little much though.  I get that many black men automatically knew what she meant but I'd suspect that many wouldn't.  I don't think that one comes down to racism as much as it comes down to men not knowing or not wanting to know all the things ladies do as a "beauty routine".  It's like anything else, some know all about it, some know a few things and some are totally in the dark.  I'm the same way about guys even those who do the bare minimum; I have no idea about aftershave vs cologne and apparently there are conditioners you can use between the shaving and the aftershave splashy stuff and the nose hair thing and to be honest I don't want to know.  And I can't tie a tie, I guess some ladies can but why is it every single guy on TV who says to his Mom/Girlfriend/Wife  "Can you help me with this" has a lady that can automatically step up and do the tie for them?  Just once I'd sort of like to see the lady turn and say "Nope, I have no idea how you do up those things".  Anyway not catching rudeness in the store doesn't seem like it should be equal to not knowing that silk is for her hair, I was sort of picturing that scene in Steel Magnolias where Dolly Parton's husband was playing with the wax and finally asked "What the hell is this for?"    The basics of mascara, lipstick, hairspray they get, the details not so much.

I thought he died too; wonder why that is?  And yes he does have the bad guy role down; before this aired I caught him on a Dr Quinn repeat where he played an Army Major who was (surprise) a jerk.   

Show always gets me with the sad moments but they got me with the funny this time, I had to pause because I was laughing so hard at the frozen lemonade conversation I couldn't hear what they said next.  

I so agree with this analogy--and I just recently kind of learned to tie a tie because my son had me google it and he worked it out. Previously, I would say, go see your Nana--and to my surprise she would say "go see your Papa"--I always assumed my mom knew all things like this but turns out my dad's been doing his own tie all along.

I don't really blame Kevin for not noticing the racism in the store. He was looking down--so he heard some rudeness from the clerk--but that itself is not entirely unusual--it was her whole delivery that was the tip off of "not just lazy clerk who doesn't want to mess with the bathroom; it's racism"

[Scarlett45]

(I’m late as I was watching Halloween things these last two weeks). 

I can see Miguel and Rebecca having a moment in the near future (not like tomorrow but a year or so) and it freaking Rebecca out, Miguel getting a job out of state and then getting back in touch in 2008 after Tess is born. Miguel is a good guy, I always liked him.

Kate has a pleasant voice but that’s it- pleasant.

 

Randall’s date’s prom dress was very on trend for 1998, but a red head would’ve worn a green dress (just kidding she can wear whatever color she likes). Poor teen Randall- he didn’t go to prom?!! Kevin left him to hang out in a fast food joint?!

Damn Kevin Hartley and Sterling K Brown are so handsome. 

I thought the older lady gave Zoe a nice bit of advice. 

Edited November 1, 2018 by Scarlett45

[MaryPatShelby]

On 10/23/2018 at 8:59 PM, SuzyLee said:

Miguel, please stop trying to make me like you with your handyman services for Rebecca and your childhood stories about Ricky Ricardo.  Just stop.  It ain’t gonna happen.

Why is there so much hate for Miguel?

[Scarlett45]

On 11/10/2018 at 10:16 PM, MaryPatShelby said:

Why is there so much hate for Miguel?

No idea. I always liked Miguel. While I understand why Randal wasn’t in the mood to hear his speech, he did try to offer him words of comfort. Unlike his BROTHER Kevin, who left him alone and got drunk in the limo, ruining Sophie’s prom to boot.