S03.E05: Toby

[BonnieD]

Political campaigns always make for bad storylines IMO. ( ie. Parenthood when can't-even-recall-character's name ran for some office right after having survived cancer AND with a  new baby in the house.) I know shows want to keep viewer interest with high drama, but there's nothing wrong with letting things breathe a little  and finding "drama" in smaller, quieter moments. Randall finds dad, loses dad, loses job, melts down numerous times, becomes a stay at home dad, adopts a child, becomes a landlord, and decides to run for office. Rushing pell mell from topic to topic is totally unnecessary. It becomes a matter of checking off boxes. Like the writers in their brainstorming sessions throw a dart at a board full of IMPORTANT TOPICS and dole them out to the characters.

For me, it's the quiet, heartfelt bits--like everything concerning Miguel this week as he tries to care for the family like he knew his friend wanted him to--that really touch me. There is so much that could be mined in Randall's life as a stay-at-home dad with a brand new adopted daughter. Not need to throw in  politics just for the sake of making statements.

Right now I'm most interested in Kevin and the Vietnam story. I imagine something really bad went down i that his messed up brother was a part of, something along the lines of the My Lai massacre.

[ShadowFacts]

Kate and Toblerone got a little bit short shrift in an episode which contained big revelations about them.  Maybe that's just how it hit me, or that I'm more interested in the other siblings and Rebecca and Miguel.  Speaking of Miguel, I got an inkling of why he probably moves away for a good while in how Randall dismisses him.  He gets close to Rebecca and the kids can't handle it. 

[callmebetty]

8 hours ago, voiceover said:

Eeeee!!  It's Mac (Charles Robinson) from Night Court as Jack's Vietnam buddy!  I knew right when he opened the door (but I did double-check at IMDb just in case).  Man I loved that series.

I'm so glad somebody else knew this. I've been bursting at the seam to mention it ever since that quick flash of him two episodes ago. 

I love that they kept the surname of Robinson for him, and was so hoping his wife would be Quon Le. Hee.

I'm a huge Night Court nerd.

[llewis823]

10 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Nice seeing Miguel helping the family, and Jack asking him to look out for his family if something happened to him. Trying to give Randall a Pearson speech, taking care of drunk Kevin, helping around the house. Guy has grown on me, what can I say? 

I agree. He has been growing on me little by little anyway. He always seems to have his heart in the right place in dealing with Rebecca and the kids. And he never disrespects Jack or his memory.

[LoveLeigh]

So Jack may have been in love when he was in Vietnam before he met Rebecca. Nice! Maybe the big three are the big four? Glad Kate is pregnant. And what are Beth's symptoms? What could she have? She was disoriented, maybe that is why she was fired? 

I am not liking Randall in politics. I hope he drops his political aspirations and goes back to his career.  

I love this show. I hate that we only get one hour a week. 

[llewis823]

8 hours ago, voiceover said:

low-drama way to bring Alabaster around (later on he seemed to take it in stride)

Did they really call Kevin "Alabaster"? If so, not very nice. Maybe even a bit racist. It does go both ways you know.

[TV Diva Queen]

11 hours ago, RedDelicious said:

I thought he was dead too but it’s the dad from Dirty Dancing who died.

had to jump to commenting before reading through....you mean Lenny Briscoe, right?  Jerry Orbach, superstar....

[Ravello]

I’m losing interest in this show.  It is drifting away from the core group with too much back story about peripheral characters.  I want the focus to be on Jack, Rebecca, the big three and Miguel.  A little Toby and Beth is okay but I don’t want entire episodes about their backstory.  

I feel the writers have completely blown up the Randall character and the political story ruined his magic for me.  

And I don’t care one iota about Beth’s cousin, whose facial expression never changes.  The social justice rant about paying for gasoline was another distraction from focusing on the core group and good story telling. 

[PRgal]

9 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

I don't think it's strange that Kevin didn't know about the pillowcase. I doubt Randall sleeps on one and Kevin probably doesn't know what Beth sleeps on. Do we know that Beth sleeps on a satin pillowcase. This is not something all black women do nor is it something only black women do. I remember Randall saying that Beth wore a scarf at night. So wouldn't that mean Beth probably doesn't sleep on a satin pillowcase? I'm asking for real as a black woman who has never slept on a satin pillowcase. Women from different backgrounds sleep on them so even if Rebecca or Kate slept on them, there's no guarantee Kevin would know that or care why. 

The pillow case thing can be read as sexism too.  Like you said, Randall probably doesn't sleep with one ( he doesn't come across as what they used to call "metrosexual" (back in the early 2000s)).  Zoe, however, DOES come across as a bit of a Millennial Brat (does she qualify to be one?  She's a few years younger than Beth, right?  Beth, like the Big 3, is an Xennial).  

[kili]

Quote

The only time I can think of him mentioning race was young Kevin complaining about being the forgotten kid because Kate was fat and Randall was too black. 

The actual line was: And you're so busy making sure that Kate's not eating too much - Kev, calm down. - and and Randall's not too adopted, and meanwhile, where's Kevin? Oh, guess what? He's dead. 

Randall is so oblivious to Beth's needs. She's subsuming all her grief and worry because she doesn't want to burden him all while supporting his idea to suddenly enter politics in a city several hours away. I felt really bad for when she broke down during the interview. 

ChiChi basically told him his campaign thing was going to be a bust. He asked her why his name was buried in the small print and she said it was because he wanted her to fill the restaurant. 

Kevin was sweet to get the pillowcase. He didn't need to know why she wanted it, he just needed to know it was important to her. 

[topanga]

I really enjoyed this episode. There were a lot of plot lines going on, but I found each one compelling and interesting. I could’ve done without the constant speeches: “When I was a kid...”, “I used to have this dog/friend/problem with my feelings...”, etc. Other than that, I was riveted the entire hour. 

11 hours ago, notcreative enough said:

Zoey is everything that I hate about people. Like how dare Kevin not know something that she isn’t willing to tell him. Her and the army guys wife being a poor stupid white boy seemed very mean spirited. And who randomly starts talking about their relationship with someone they just met.

And I didn’t see it that way. IMO, Zoe wasn’t calling Kevin a stupid white boy. She was stating that it’s hard always having to explain things about being black. And that’s something white people—especially white men—almost never have to do, because whiteness is considered the norm in America. As a black woman myself, I understand that Zoe felt self-conscious about explaining to Kevin that her hair gets dry if she sleeps on cotton pillow cases or that people can be bigoted towards her without saying a word. Or maybe she just didn’t have the energy to go into a long explanation. Often, these aspects of someone’s culture are treated as something strange or weird or they’re simply not believed. 

What I loved is that Kevin had no idea why she wanted the pillowcase, but he got if for her anyway. And he believed her when she told him about the subtle behavior of the cashier at the gas station and how that made her feel. 

And pouring your heart out to strangers seems to be a requirement in the TIU universe. 

 

11 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Loved Miguel being a genuinely good guy and looking out for the family because Jack wanted him to. And also glad he didn't pop out from under the refrigerator like I expected when Kate started singing at the piano. Helping 3/4s of the Pearsons is enough. I liked seeing that first hint of a Miguel/Rebecca relationship. Not romantic yet, but the earliest scene in the timeline where you can see how it could go there.

I was expecting him to pop out, too! And yes, it seems like his friendship and later romance with Rebecca developed organically. 

4 hours ago, Drumpf1737 said:

Everybody eats fried chicken too but somehow it became uniquely associated with Black people.

 

Different hair textures require different methods of preserving moisture. Also depends on whether your hair is chemically treated or not. It's funny the Black women I know who don't use Black haircare products or maintenance methods always have shitty hair and stridently argue against the need for them. One of my girlfriends eventually had to shave her head because she would not switch to a satin pillowcase or scarf and used a series of products that just made her hair increasingly drier. I never said I told you so but I thought it always.

Your entire post made me laugh. Thank you

[Ohiopirate02]

The whole Toby scene at the pharmacy did not make any sense to me.  I used to be a pharmacy technician (not in California), but Toby's antidepressants are not going to be a controlled substance.  He should have refills available.  He stated that he hasn't taken them in 5 weeks which means he is due for a refill.  He definitely did not dump out a full 90 day supply in the past episode.  Most pharmacists that I have worked with over the years would attempt to fill the prescription even if he was out of refills.  They are also able to call his doctor to request refills.  I hate manufactured drama like this.  What should have happened is that he goes back on his medications, but they are not working.  

Edited October 24, 2018 by Ohiopirate02

[TV Diva Queen]

anyone catch in the Miguel/Jack flashback, that Jack was buying an insurance policy and Miguel said "you don't need insurance, you're SuperJack" (paraphrased), do you think that Jack didn't  buy the policy and that is another reason why Miguel is helping the Pearson's out so much?  I know Jack asked him to watch out for them, but it just seemed odd.  

[Ohiopirate02]

15 minutes ago, TV Diva Queen said:

anyone catch in the Miguel/Jack flashback, that Jack was buying an insurance policy and Miguel said "you don't need insurance, you're SuperJack" (paraphrased), do you think that Jack didn't  buy the policy and that is another reason why Miguel is helping the Pearson's out so much?  I know Jack asked him to watch out for them, but it just seemed odd.  

I think that Jack still got the life insurance policy.  Rebecca was shown looking for a new house for the family after the fire.  She would not have been able to afford that if Jack had not had the policy especially if she was a stay-at-home mom for years.  

[Mrs Shibbles]

1 hour ago, BonnieD said:

Political campaigns always make for bad storylines IMO.

I didn't even like the campaigns on The West Wing.

Just now, Ohiopirate02 said:

I think that Jack still got the life insurance policy.  Rebecca was shown looking for a new house for the family after the fire.  She would not have been able to afford that if Jack had not had the policy especially if she was a stay-at-home mom for years.  

I think he did too.  I would hope he wasn't that stupid.  Homeowners insurance also goes toward the house replacement, depending on their policy.

[TV Diva Queen]

5 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I think that Jack still got the life insurance policy.  Rebecca was shown looking for a new house for the family after the fire.  She would not have been able to afford that if Jack had not had the policy especially if she was a stay-at-home mom for years.  

the homeowner's insurance not the life insurance would have paid for the new house and since mortgage companies require it, I'm certain they had homeowners. 

It was probably just a throwaway line to once again, drill in the fact that Jack=Superman  

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, callmebetty said:

I'm so glad somebody else knew this. I've been bursting at the seam to mention it ever since that quick flash of him two episodes ago. 

I love that they kept the surname of Robinson for him, and was so hoping his wife would be Quon Le. Hee.

I'm a huge Night Court nerd.

Interestingly, he also played a Vietnam vet on NCIS last night. And, IIRC, Mac had also been in Vietnam.

 

27 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

The whole Toby scene at the pharmacy did not make any sense to me.  I used to be a pharmacy technician (not in California), but Toby's antidepressants are not going to be a controlled substance.  He should have refills available.  He stated that he hasn't taken them in 5 weeks which means he is due for a refill.  He definitely did not dump out a full 90 day supply in the past episode.  Most pharmacists that I have worked with over the years would attempt to fill the prescription even if he was out of refills.  They are also able to call his doctor to request refills.  I hate manufactured drama like this.  What should have happened is that he goes back on his medications, but they are not working.  

 

Was it because he said he had been off of them for 5 weeks.  Did she want him to see his doctor because he may now need a new dose since he did go cold turkey?

Edited October 24, 2018 by Katy M

[Ohiopirate02]

14 minutes ago, TV Diva Queen said:

the homeowner's insurance not the life insurance would have paid for the new house and since mortgage companies require it, I'm certain they had homeowners. 

It was probably just a throwaway line to once again, drill in the fact that Jack=Superman  

They haven't shown Rebecca getting a job and she has 3 teenagers to feed, house and clothe.  I  can't imagine that she would be able to accomplish this without some sort of life insurance policy.  The money from the homeowners insurance would not be enough to accomplish this and buy a new house.  How is she going to pay taxes and insurance on the new house if she did not have some other money until she got a job.

[Katy M]

Just now, Ohiopirate02 said:

They haven't shown Rebecca getting a job and she has 3 teenagers to feed, house and clothe.  I  can't imagine that she would be able to accomplish this without some sort of life insurance policy.  The money from the homeowners insurance would not be enough to accomplish this and buy a new house.  How is she going to pay taxes and insurance on the new house if she did not have some other money until she got a job.

She sued the estate of the neighbors that gave them the crock pot. And she sued the crock pot people. And the hospital.  And tracked down the people who abandoned the dog and sued them. 

[Lady Calypso]

39 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

The whole Toby scene at the pharmacy did not make any sense to me.  I used to be a pharmacy technician (not in California), but Toby's antidepressants are not going to be a controlled substance.  He should have refills available.  He stated that he hasn't taken them in 5 weeks which means he is due for a refill.  He definitely did not dump out a full 90 day supply in the past episode.  Most pharmacists that I have worked with over the years would attempt to fill the prescription even if he was out of refills.  They are also able to call his doctor to request refills.  I hate manufactured drama like this.  What should have happened is that he goes back on his medications, but they are not working.  

It did feel a bit sudden, mostly because it felt like they rushed getting to Kate's part of the flashforward from last season when they could have had the adjustment of meds scene in the next couple of episodes. I'm not quite sure why they rushed that portion. It's only episode 5, after all. There's time to have the flashforwards from the finale be incorporated into this season. 

Since Toby quit cold turkey, could Kate have called his doctor to tell him, or her, and the doctor suggested a new dosage of meds to help him get back on track?

As for the posts about Kevin going to prom anyway while Randall went home, we know Kevin and Randall's relationship is still rocky at this point. We also know Kevin, even a grieving Teen Kevin, is self absorbed and still not selfless so not only is it possible that Randall told him to go to prom, Kevin probably didn't want to skip out on prom anyway.

Though, I do wonder about Kevin's reaction to the racism on Randall being related to his heavy drinking at prom. I THINK we were supposed to see a correlation when he started drinking in the limo after the incident, but I'm not sure if I'm just reading in to that.

[AriAu]

Quote

Finally, I don’t want to say that my interest in this show is waning, but it’s definitely not what it was.

Because this show finds a way to throw as much depression as possible into each episode! Randall couldn't just have his "rally" go badly, he had to get really put in his place by the owner and then the flashback had to show that he had the worst prom E V E R and have his wife suffer some panic attack/emotional breakdown...I'm shocked one of the girls didn't get kidnapped.

Kate couldn't enjoy one second of getting pregnant before her husband crashes and she couldn't enjoy her singing Adele-ogram success without flashing back to even more sadness and a horrible shot of teen Kate being on her way to huge Kate.

And don't even get me started on Toby.

On the other hand, there were a few things I loved:

1. Jack's buddy saying "Listen, he wasn't a mechanic" and making it clear that Jack was a leader and leading to further deification of Jack.

2.  Pretty much everything at the Army buddies house, including the conversation between Zoe and the wife. I know this sounds shallow, and I know that she is a maneater and that the relationship will end as horribly and sadly as possible, but Zoe is stunning.

3. The idea of Jack having a Vietnamese love interest.....who you just know will die. Will she come back like Michelle in Magnum PI or be dead and never mentioned like Apollonia in the Godfather. However, you just know that she will die in the most impossibly sad way possible....maybe killed by his brother while pregnant with triplets ...or dying on a flight to the US like Henry Blake.

4. Toby's Rodney Dangerfield impression...pretty pure and only after putting on the coat...Wish he would have adjusted an imaginary tie.

Edited October 24, 2018 by AriAu

[TV Diva Queen]

2 minutes ago, AriAu said:

Because this show finds a way to throw as much depression as possible into each episode! Randall couldn't just have his "rally" go badly, he had to get really put in his place by the owner and then the flashback had to show that he had the worst prom E V E R and have his wife suffer some panic attack/emotional breakdown...I'm shocked one of the girls didn't get kidnapped.

Kate couldn't enjoy one second of getting pregnant before her husband crashes and she couldn't enjoy her singing Adele-ogram success without flashing back to even more sadness and a horrible shot of teen Kate being on her way to huge Kate.

And don't even get me started on Toby.

On the other hand, there were a few things I loved:

1. Jack's buddy saying "Listen, he wasn't a mechanic" and making it clear that Jack a leader and leading to further deification of Jack.

2.  Pretty much everything at the Army buddies house, including the conversation between Zoe and the wife. I know this sounds shallow, and I know that she is a maneater and that the relationship will end as horribly and sadly as possible, but Zoe is stunning.

3. The idea of Jack having a Vietnamese love interest.....who you just know will die. Will she come back like Michelle in Magnum PI or be dead and never mentioned like Apollonia in the Godfather. However, you just know that she will die in the most impossibly sad way possible....maybe killed by his brother while pregnant with triplets while boarding the plane to the US...or dying on a flight to the US like Henry Blake.

4. Toby's Rodney Dangerfield impression...pretty pure and only after putting on the coat...Wish he would have adjusted an imaginary tie.

I love you!  

[RedDelicious]

1 hour ago, TV Diva Queen said:

had to jump to commenting before reading through....you mean Lenny Briscoe, right?  Jerry Orbach, superstar....

yes! iconic movie/tv dads

Edited October 24, 2018 by RedDelicious

[Kdawg82]

Decent episide. Tearjerker for me was the army buddy telling Kevin how Jack saved his life and what his role REALLY was in Vietnam.  Kate's "I push music away when I'm sad" is just whatever . Her 2 characteristics are 1) I'm big and 2) I sing. -- so half of your defining characteristics we've seen so far are GONE when you're sad which is USUALLY. So now we just have a big girl with no personality or anything to offer.  Show us more ABOUT Kate, writers . And I dont mean sarcasm and pregnancy. Who the f IS she?! 

Anyone sensing a Kevin storyline where he inappropriately jumps in to "defend" Zoe against a racist and it's either definitely NOT racism and he was mistaken or he lands himself in jail again by a fistfight over her and ruins his life.  Then she jumps on him like "I don't need you to SAVE ME, Kevin! I should've kept my mouth shut! This will never work between us!" Cliche cliche cliche . Please don't do it, writers! I beg of you!

[topanga]

15 minutes ago, AriAu said:

4. Toby's Rodney Dangerfield impression...pretty pure and only after putting on the coat...Wish he would have adjusted an imaginary tie.

Yeah, that child actor was pretty good. 

It reminds me of a story Stephen Colbert shares about his childhood. (Here I go, telling unsolicited stories just like the Pearsons do). His dad died when he was young, and his mother became very depressed. Stephen said that making his mother laugh became his number one goal in life. Years later, his mother told him that his jokes were some of the only things that made her genuinely happy during those years. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by topanga

[Pallas]

To me, Beth seems caught in the spirals of depression. Without any warning she could see, she was thrown out of her job. A job she had held since her mid-twenties. A job that was her own: a family (as she said) she chose and help create out of what was important to her. A throughline from her present to her past. Something she was, before she was a mother. Even before she lost her job, Beth had already begun counseling herself about this, through her sessions with William in memory or imagination.

And surely Beth has her own questions about where she belongs. In Alpine? As the one black woman at every professional meeting she attends? As Mayflower Mom to Randall's Pilgrim Rick every other Thanksgiving; as helpmeet to the entire Pearson family: the gif that keeps on taking? 

For the major characters, one by one, this seems to be the season of Yeah We're Us But Who Am I?  

[Ohiopirate02]

21 minutes ago, Katy M said:

She sued the estate of the neighbors that gave them the crock pot. And she sued the crock pot people. And the hospital.  And tracked down the people who abandoned the dog and sued them. 

I'm sure that Rebecca did not have to pay for Saint Jack's funeral or medical expenses.  The hospital probably paid her for the privilege of having him as a patient.  And his funeral was probably the first crowd-funded funeral in existence a full 12 years before GoFundMe ever existed.  

[ShadowFacts]

37 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Was it because he said he had been off of them for 5 weeks.  Did she want him to see his doctor because he may now need a new dose since he did go cold turkey?

Could be this, because I don't think she ever looked him up in the system, just right away knew she couldn't fill it. 

49 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I think that Jack still got the life insurance policy.  Rebecca was shown looking for a new house for the family after the fire.  She would not have been able to afford that if Jack had not had the policy especially if she was a stay-at-home mom for years.  

 

43 minutes ago, TV Diva Queen said:

the homeowner's insurance not the life insurance would have paid for the new house and since mortgage companies require it, I'm certain they had homeowners. 

It was probably just a throwaway line to once again, drill in the fact that Jack=Superman  

I don't know that she bought a new house -- didn't she say she'd have to get the landlord to fix the refrigerator?  And wasn't Randall climbing up stairs after notProm, suggesting an upper flat?  Maybe the rental is temporary until she finds a suitable house. 

[kilda]

10 hours ago, mommalib said:

In fairness to Randall he tried to talk to the guy but the guy either blew him off or flat out didn't do what he said he would. Does Randall need to slow down ? yes but I will never fault him for trying because he does a hell of a lot more than others would even attempt to. He's just trying to honor both his fathers and find his place. As for young Kevin he was always jealous of Randall and I always thought there was a little subtle racism toward Randall on his part. So I guess I shouldn't be surprised that he didn't defend Randall or go home with him.

 

he is trying, and his intentions are good, but there's something so condescending about the way he thought he could just swoop in and save the poor neighborhood.  He's being obliviously classist the same way some people are obliviously racist.  He marches in, talks about everything that's wrong with the neighborhood and how he's going to be their savior.  Instead of just coming to be WITH them, get to know them, and find out what they think and want.  This is what ChiChi was trying to say when she said "you're not one of us."  (as a friend of mine in college once clarified to her boyfriend, "we are not an Us.").  He means so well but he needs to learn to listen to people instead of barging in to be their savior.

On another note, it's so sad to see him feeling like he belongs nowhere.  Doesn't fit with white people, doesn't fit with black people.  He's just trying to find who he can be an "us" with. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by kilda

[Evagirl]

I am so glad I came here to read postings before I took the time to watch the recorded show tonight.  Now I know to FF through pretty much all of Randall's story line.  He's gets so gung-ho about everything that concerns him to the detriment of his family.  Just like bringing William into their home or becoming foster parents or quitting his job or adopting Deja.  He pretty much brow-beat Beth into accepting everything that he wants to do because "poor me, I was just like Steve Martin in The Jerk, but only in reverse."  I am sick of it!

Jack and Rebecca's story is what drew me to this show.  Their chemistry is amazing.  Then Jack's relationship with his kids is what kept me watching the show.  Now every week I ask why I am still investing my time into this show.  Kate is insufferable.  You want kids that bad, then lose some damn weight and make it easier to get pregnant!  Man, she trashes everybody, her mom (who's shown her nothing but love), Toby (who's devotion to her is undeserving), even strangers.  IMO, she has always felt that she and Kevin are twins and Randall just the adopted brother.  I don't feel like she nor Kevin has ever bought into the "Big Three" that Jack was so over the top about.

The way the writers are portraying Kevin is all over the place.  One season he's a self-centered all-about-me jerk who treats women like loose change in his pocket.  The next season he's a full-blown drunk and druggie.  The next season he's clean and sober, kind and compassionate, I-Love-My-Daddy stuff.  At least adult Kate has always been insufferable.  Randall was a sweet kid who just wanted to please.  Now he's an adult who feels like everybody should please him.

I'm getting over this show pretty quick.  I might resort to reading recaps and Previously TV.  It will certainly be more interesting - LOL!

[topanga]

5 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Could be this, because I don't think she ever looked him up in the system, just right away knew she couldn't fill it. 

 

I don't know that she bought a new house -- didn't she say she'd have to get the landlord to fix the refrigerator?  And wasn't Randall climbing up stairs after notProm, suggesting an upper flat?  Maybe the rental is temporary until she finds a suitable house. 

When Miguel was bringing in the piano, he was in a hall, and there were numbers on the doors, suggesting that they  lived an apartment. Did I miss the discussion that they were moving into am apartment and not a different house?

[ShadowFacts]

7 minutes ago, kilda said:

he is trying, and his intentions are good, but there's something so condescending about the way he thought he could just swoop in and save the poor neighborhood.  He's being obliviously classist the same way some people are obliviously racist.  He marches in, talks about everything that's wrong with the neighborhood and how he's going to be their savior.  Instead of just coming to be WITH them, get to know them, and find out what they think and want.  This is what ChiChi was trying to say when she said "you're not one of us."  (as a friend of mine in college once clarified to her boyfriend, "we are not an Us."  He means so well but he needs to learn to listen to people instead of barging in to be their savior.

On another note, it's so sad to see him feeling like he belongs nowhere.  Doesn't fit with white people, doesn't fit with black people.  He's just trying to find who he can be an "us" with. 

I agree he has the wrong approach with this and probably shouldn't just be using his name on a lease establishing residency to jump into the local politics.  On the other hand, the incumbent has become complacent and the constituents don't seem too inclined to hold his feet to the fire.  Maybe Randall can find a way to shake things up short of running for elective office.  If he continues his run I think he'll lose, if for no other reason than that it defies reality too much and with Kate having achieved her against-the-odds pregnancy, I doubt the writers would let them both have victory. 

[Trillium]

38 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

 

Though, I do wonder about Kevin's reaction to the racism on Randall being related to his heavy drinking at prom. I THINK we were supposed to see a correlation when he started drinking in the limo after the incident, but I'm not sure if I'm just reading in to that.

That was the impression I got too. He was shocked and upset about how Randall was treated, but teen Kevin doesn’t deal with emotions. He just drinks. 

[Mrs Shibbles]

She did buy a house eventually. I believe the house she was looking at (wasn't there a memory of a conversation with Jack about  pesto?) is the same one that modern day that Rebecca and Miguel live in.

This episode probably took place before that.   

Edited October 24, 2018 by Mrs Shibbles
Wrong quote! Sorry. This is in response to the conversation about the house.

[Lady Calypso]

3 minutes ago, Mrs Shibbles said:

She did buy a house eventually. I believe the house she was looking at (wasn't there a memory of a conversation with Jack about  pesto?) is the same one that modern day that Rebecca and Miguel live in.

This episode probably took place before that.   

 

I know they had been looking at houses, but the other episode took place before this one. I'm pretty sure of that because that's when Kate said that she wasn't going to college and Randall deferred in that episode. This episode had prom, and prom typically takes place in May or June (I think; I'm Canadian so I'm not positive on the timelines), so the college stuff would have been a couple of months before, at least. 

It could be that they were looking at houses but Rebecca couldn't find one that she liked enough so she kept putting it off until the kids graduated.

[Pallas]

5 minutes ago, topanga said:

Did I miss the discussion that they were moving into am apartment and not a different house?

I thought that in this era, the family was grudgingly looking at houses that Rebecca -- acting for all of them -- couldn't bring herself to buy. Then would return to the apartment that made no pretense of replacing their home. 

[Katy M]

10 minutes ago, kilda said:

he is trying, and his intentions are good, but there's something so condescending about the way he thought he could just swoop in and save the poor neighborhood.  He's being obliviously classist the same way some people are obliviously racist.  He marches in, talks about everything that's wrong with the neighborhood and how he's going to be their savior.  Instead of just coming to be WITH them, get to know them, and find out what they think and want.  This is what ChiChi was trying to say when she said "you're not one of us."  (as a friend of mine in college once clarified to her boyfriend, "we are not an Us."  He means so well but he needs to learn to listen to people instead of barging in to be their savior.

And has he ever thought about the realities of government?  From what we know about his opponent, he seems like a caring guy.  Does Randall not realize that stuff costs money? Is he planning on privately financing the entire district?  He looks around and sees everything that is wrong.  But, maybe there is also a lot that is right that the other guy has worked for.

 

10 minutes ago, Evagirl said:

At least adult Kate has always been insufferable.  Randall was a sweet kid who just wanted to please.  Now he's an adult who feels like everybody should please him.

I think there's a lot of evidence that says he's still trying to please everyone.  Just because he goes over the top does not mean he's out for only himself.

 

7 minutes ago, topanga said:

When Miguel was bringing in the piano, he was in a hall, and there were numbers on the doors, suggesting that they  lived an apartment. Did I miss the discussion that they were moving into am apartment and not a different house?

I don't think they had a discussion. The next time we saw them after the fire and funeral and everything they were already in that apartment.  That was the day they went to look at that house.  I don't think Rebecca really had any intention of buying it.  She just wanted to go look because she and Jack had gone to look at that house before and she knows that if they had bought it earlier, he wouldn't have died.  No way you can buy that house after that. It'd be a constant punch in the face.

 

8 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

think he'll lose, if for no other reason than that it defies reality too much and with Kate having achieved her against-the-odds pregnancy, I doubt the writers would let them both have victory.

When has that ever stopped this show?  I hope he loses because it would make more sense, but I have the feeling that he'll come up with some grand gesture and speech and be elected by the largest landslide since Reagan.

[AriAu]

Quote

 

3. The idea of Jack having a Vietnamese love interest.....who you just know will die. Will she come back like Michelle in Magnum PI or be dead and never mentioned like Apollonia in the Godfather. However, you just know that she will die in the most impossibly sad way possible....maybe killed by his brother while pregnant with triplets while boarding the plane to the US...or dying on a flight to the US like Henry Blake.

4. Toby's Rodney Dangerfield impression...pretty pure and only after putting on the coat...Wish he would have adjusted an imaginary tie.

 

Quote

I love you! 

..... adjusts his tie.... shrugs his shoulders..."If only someone who knew me felt that way!" Be sure to tip your waitresses.

Quote

Though, I do wonder about Kevin's reaction to the racism on Randall being related to his heavy drinking at prom. I THINK we were supposed to see a correlation when he started drinking in the limo after the incident, but I'm not sure if I'm just reading in to that.

I'm not sure how we were supposed to read Kevin's reaction or lack thereof. It did show that he was not his father since Jack would have politely yet forcefully stood up to the racist dad...who couldn't figure out how to get through 15 minutes of pictures for his daughter's prom...knowing full well that Randall was black before he ever walked in the door and, making it worse, knowing full well the trauma Randall had been through.

Edited to add...While my interest may be waning and I considered taking a mental health break from the sadness, they throw just enough in to make you come back. If I had not seen the scene with the Vietnamese woman and young Jack, I would have been surprised when it cropped up when I was mentally strong enough to come back to it!

Edited October 24, 2018 by AriAu

[Neurochick]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

As for the pillow thing, I get where she's coming from. Constantly explaining your otherness can be exhausting and that's a lot of effort for something that's just a fun friends with benefits kind of situation. For people who don't understand what it's like, imagine having to explain how and why you do something that is part of your basic daily routine. Why do you take a shower in the morning? Why not at night? Why do you use that specific soap? Why do you use a shower gel instead of bar soap? I've never heard of that brand before. Where did you get it? Who told you about it? How long have you been using it? Have you tried other brands? What about other scents? Why do you like desert rose better than fresh lilac? Do you use a loofah? Why don't you use one of those mesh shower poufs instead? Now imagine having to explain all of that several times a week or every time you meet a new person. That's kind of like what explaining your otherness is like. To you, it's just what you do. But you end up having to explain the same things over and over constantly. It's not that what you do is super complicated or anything to be embarrassed about. It's just tiresome having to share this information repeatedly and after the hundredth time, you're just kind of over it even though you know you're going to have to do it again pretty soon.

And that is the point, right there.  Some will say, "why should Kevin know what Zoe does with her hair?"  Well, why not?  We see on TV, constantly shampoo and conditioner commercials featuring white people.  White people are the default.  "Nude"or "flesh tone" used to and still does with some products, means for white skin.  Why?  Why do white people get to be the norm, the default?  That's the point regarding the satin pillow.  

I remember seeing the first episode of "Atlanta" Vanessa was shown in the first scene wearing a headscarf.  To me that was a nuance, because you rarely see black women on TV (or in the movies) wearing a headscarf to bed; another nuanced scene was from the movie "Creed" where he's taking his girlfriend's braids out.  Those scenes were shown as normal, not as anything strange or exotic.

[Katy M]

10 minutes ago, AriAu said:

I'm not sure how we were supposed to read Kevin's reaction or lack thereof. It did show that he was not his father since Jack would have politely yet forcefully stood up to the racist dad...who couldn't figure out how to get through 15 minutes of pictures for his daughter's prom...knowing full well that Randall was black before he ever walked in the door and, making it worse, knowing full well the trauma Randall had been through.

I don't really understand people who are prejudiced against races, so I'm not sure whether I should give him points for thinking that he was going to be nice and taking pictures, or not.  Although, besides saying "I can't do this," he didn't say anything else. It would be weird if we found out that he lsot his father at the same age and was having a "Big Three" type moment where he made everything all about his own long past tragedy.

6 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

And that is the point, right there.  Some will say, "why should Kevin know what Zoe does with her hair?"  Well, why not?  We see on TV, constantly shampoo and conditioner commercials featuring white people.  White people are the default.  "Nude"or "flesh tone" used to and still does with some products, means for white skin.  Why?  Why do white people get to be the norm, the default?  That's the point regarding the satin pillow.  

But someone up above said that not all black people use satin pillow cases.  And one person said that he's black with a black wife and black sisters and mother and didn't know about that.  I know that generally black people have drier hair and should wash it less often, but had no idea that silk pillowcases came into play with anything.  I also didn't know that my white friend, for whatever reason not really my business, only washes her hair once a week until her boyfriend complained aobut it in front of me.  I have no idea what my sister's hair care regimen is.  This is not a racial issue. This is a not caring about other people's hair issue, IMO.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Katy M

[ElectricBoogaloo]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It would be weird if we found out that he lsot his father at the same age and was having a "Big Three" type moment where he made everything all about his own long past tragedy.

Maybe next week we’ll see Allison’s dad at the grocery store telling the poor cashier or some other stranger about how his best friend died on prom night and he hasn’t been able to see teenagers wearing tuxedos without crying ever since that fateful night. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

13 hours ago, After7Only said:

What some found contrived, others found to be a fairly real and common Black American experience.  I could relate, and appreciated seeing it.

Love your POV here.  I appreciated it too.

I loved this episode and am very excited for next week.  I didn't find anything about this episode 'contrived' or shoving a political agenda.  I also don't hate Zoe at all.  I totally understand her hesitation to get into everything with Kevin, even though he has a black brother.  It's an investment of time and explaining that not everyone has the patience or will to do.  She didn't blame Kevin for anything at all, she didn't treat Kevin unfairly.  It was omission, not commission.  She didn't blame Kevin for not noticing the cashier's behaviour; she just took note of it.  She didn't blame Kevin for not understanding her desire for a silk pillow; she just noticed it.  I don't recall Zoe being "upset" with Kevin, not once.

Some people are kinda oblivious, like Kevin, and some people think about every microaggression and take notice.  My brother and I are always talking about people's behaviour towards us, it fascinates us, but usually the people we're with have no idea what we're talking about.   (We're kind of like Larry in "Curb your Enthusiasm" that way.) Kevin was literally looking down at his items, so I think the show's framing of it was too ambiguous for me to pass blame to him.  Just my opinion.  The cashier wasn't being so ambiguous, but the show made the situation too ambiguous, in that Kevin wasn't really watching.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[Kirkydee]

About Toby and the pharmacy....

Perhaps when he flushed his meds there were no refills left on those pills.  And to Ohiopirate, if his prescription was a benzodiazepine wouldn't that be a controlled substance?  They didn't say exactly what he was taking (unless I missed it). Perhaps the pharmacist was concerned because of his ramblings and didn't know if he was 'self medicating' on his own.  

I understand why everybody is anti political Randall, but that's just Randall. Teen Randall is intelligent, but socially awkward, shy and self conscious.  Adult Randall is confident and has overcome his shyness, but still flashes awkwardness.  And this bites him is the booty at a soul food restaurant in the hood in Philly

[sigmaforce86]

The racism in the store is one thing; Zoe being upset about the pillowcase was a little much though.  I get that many black men automatically knew what she meant but I'd suspect that many wouldn't.  I don't think that one comes down to racism as much as it comes down to men not knowing or not wanting to know all the things ladies do as a "beauty routine".  It's like anything else, some know all about it, some know a few things and some are totally in the dark.  I'm the same way about guys even those who do the bare minimum; I have no idea about aftershave vs cologne and apparently there are conditioners you can use between the shaving and the aftershave splashy stuff and the nose hair thing and to be honest I don't want to know.  And I can't tie a tie, I guess some ladies can but why is it every single guy on TV who says to his Mom/Girlfriend/Wife  "Can you help me with this" has a lady that can automatically step up and do the tie for them?  Just once I'd sort of like to see the lady turn and say "Nope, I have no idea how you do up those things".  Anyway not catching rudeness in the store doesn't seem like it should be equal to not knowing that silk is for her hair, I was sort of picturing that scene in Steel Magnolias where Dolly Parton's husband was playing with the wax and finally asked "What the hell is this for?"    The basics of mascara, lipstick, hairspray they get, the details not so much.

13 hours ago, Katy M said:

Dan Lauria always plays a jerk. And why did I think he was dead?

I thought he died too; wonder why that is?  And yes he does have the bad guy role down; before this aired I caught him on a Dr Quinn repeat where he played an Army Major who was (surprise) a jerk.   

Show always gets me with the sad moments but they got me with the funny this time, I had to pause because I was laughing so hard at the frozen lemonade conversation I couldn't hear what they said next.  

[TV Diva Queen]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

 

 

I don't know that she bought a new house -- didn't she say she'd have to get the landlord to fix the refrigerator?  And wasn't Randall climbing up stairs after notProm, suggesting an upper flat?  Maybe the rental is temporary until she finds a suitable house. 

I never said they had a house, I agree that it was an apartment too.  I think you're quoting the wrong quote here.  I'm referring to homeowners insurance from the house that burned down.  and to add that it's an apt, when Miguel  brought over the piano, it was clearly an inside hallway, with numbered doors and Miguel said something about climbing two flights of stairs. :)  

[Carly13817]

I hope Toby is alright in the end. It looks like though that there is a possibility that Toby and Kate split up as shown from that preview with him on is own in the bed there. To be honest, I once went cold turkey off an anti-anxiety drug that I was on for years, which was my bad, and had to deal with the terrible withdrawal symptoms. I was stupid and thought I didn't need to take them anymore and stopped seeing my psychiatrist. I hope that Kate and Toby can have the baby.

[Otherkate]

I found the Zoe/Kevin storyline to be the most interesting piece of the episode. She's clearly worried about dating outside of her race and for seemingly very legitimate reasons. Don't we all look for partners with whom we have shared life experiences? A real shared foundation to build something on? Don't we all want a partner who just gets us? I don't think she's absurd for being concerned. It's exactly what the soldier's wife said to her - you have to decide if he's worth it. If he is, you try and see how it goes. This is the most I've liked Zoe since she appeared. Also, some may think she's being overly sensitive, but she has her own life with her own issues. I appreciate seeing this play out on TV because I think it's a very real thing. I thought Kevin was super sweet for getting her that pillowcase even though he wasn't entirely sure why she cared so much. This actually makes me even more annoyed that Kate threw out the idea that Kevin may never have children. I think Kevin seems like someone who actually craves family and I think he'd be a great dad. God knows, he's no where near as self absorbed as his sister.

Speaking of...I can't stand her. I really can't. First of all, if you're going to try and sell this idea that she is "meant" to do music, she's going to need to have a better voice. Kate is closing in on 40 and her voice is pretty, but that's about it. Second of all, please don't have Rebecca sit and sing next to her because it just highlights that Rebecca is the one who was meant to make music and not Kate. Third of all, that scene by the elevator with the poor exec who was nice to her. I can not. I can NOT deal with her. I'm not sure I can watch this pregnancy play out because all I can think about is how badly Kate needs therapy before she should be anyone's parent. She really kills my enthusiasm for the show.

Randall. Please stop. Teen Randall breaks my heart and I get how he got from there to here, but this political storyline is killing me. And I'm very worried about Beth and I need him to pay attention. 

Basically, I'm way more invested in the Kevin/Vietnam storyline than anything else. I am also enjoying the build up of Miguel and Rebecca. It was nice to see that the Big 3 do seem to have some reason for their annoyance with him and it wasn't entirely based on his trying to be with their mother but because he tried way too hard after his BFF asked him to look after his family if he died. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by Otherkate

[Ohiopirate02]

17 minutes ago, Kirkydee said:

About Toby and the pharmacy....

Perhaps when he flushed his meds there were no refills left on those pills.  And to Ohiopirate, if his prescription was a benzodiazepine wouldn't that be a controlled substance?  They didn't say exactly what he was taking (unless I missed it). Perhaps the pharmacist was concerned because of his ramblings and didn't know if he was 'self medicating' on his own.  

I understand why everybody is anti political Randall, but that's just Randall. Teen Randall is intelligent, but socially awkward, shy and self conscious.  Adult Randall is confident and has overcome his shyness, but still flashes awkwardness.  And this bites him is the booty at a soul food restaurant in the hood in Philly

Benzos would not be a first line therapy for depression.  He is probably on an SSRI.  There is a big difference between the way Toby was acting and the way a drug addict would behave.  He was not out of the realm of possibility for a person with depression or other mental disorder.  The pharmacist has likely seen it all and would not be phased by Toby.  He would not even have to explain why he needed a refill for a daily medication even if he was out of refills.  Most pharmacies would give him a 3 day supply while they contact the doctor for more refills.  Most doctors offices will authorize at least one month's worth until the patient can be seen.  Toby should not have to leave messages with his psychiatrist for a refill on a prescription.  If he has been missing appointments and left a message, then the doctor's office would probably call him back very quickly.   

[marceline]

I was very glad to see Randall's meeting go bust. The savior complex was a problem with Jack too but the show doesn't really seem willing to unpack that. Randall keeps being told how hurtful it is when he looks at people and sees what's broken. It doesn't make people feel good even when they know and love you. To have Randall come sweeping in with no real connections doesn't inspire confidence. I like how the show is also showing us how he is oblivious to his wife's pain (although to be fair she's lying to him). This is the same obliviousness Jack showed to Rebecca's dream to be a singer. I hope Beth eventually tells him the truth. 

The experience of teenage Randall left me with a rueful smile. I was the only black girl in a high school class of over 500. Getting invited to a white friend's home was always a game of racial roulette. Sometimes because my friends really didn't grasp the depth of their parents racism or sometime because they did and brought me home out of spite. I even had one friend who asked me to crouch down in the backseat of her car so that her parents wouldn't see me when she had to run into the house to pick up something. I completely understand why Randall gave prom a pass after that. BTDT.

I know that I'm supposed to be rooting for Kate and Toby's baby adventure but I'm just not. They both just seem to have too much emotional baggage to work through with her weight and his depression. And as someone living with clinical depression I want to kick Toby's ass for flushing his pills. If you want to stop taking them, so be it but I subscribe to the belief that you always keep your meds around in case you lose your insurance.

[Kirkydee]

2 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Benzos would not be a first line therapy for depression.  He is probably on an SSRI.  There is a big difference between the way Toby was acting and the way a drug addict would behave.  He was not out of the realm of possibility for a person with depression or other mental disorder.  The pharmacist has likely seen it all and would not be phased by Toby.  He would not even have to explain why he needed a refill for a daily medication even if he was out of refills.  Most pharmacies would give him a 3 day supply while they contact the doctor for more refills.  Most doctors offices will authorize at least one month's worth until the patient can be seen.  Toby should not have to leave messages with his psychiatrist for a refill on a prescription.  If he has been missing appointments and left a message, then the doctor's office would probably call him back very quickly.   

Thanks for the reply.  I figured it was probably more than just a benzo that he was on.  I work in an ED and I can get a little jaded when people are on a lot of opioids and benzos.  As you know people will say any and everything to get what they want (not what they need- not saying Toby is that way).  I didn't know about giving a 3 day supply temporarily.  Is that state by state or per policy by individual pharmacy?