S02.E06: We're All Beasts

[Drogo]

Candy shoots her opus guerilla-style on the streets of New York. Vincent makes a confession to Abby, along with a promise to change. Ashley and Abby help a prostitute escape the Deuce, with a little help from Vincent. Larry Brown gets a promotion. Paul celebrates the opening of his new upscale club. Bobby turns to Vincent to find work for his wayward eldest son, Joey.

[maggieluvr]

I think THIS is going to be the one when Candy and Harvey have sex. (sigh) He's such a Sleaze-but, a bit more of a Mensch than last season.

[DiabLOL]

God I love Larry.

[Joimiaroxeu]

All due respect, Larry ain't just selling wolf tickets, so to speak.

Heh, Larry trying to do method acting in a porn movie. He gonna be a stah!

The reference to "bring your kid to work day" was an anachronism. That didn't start happening until the 90s--at least the "daughters" version didn't.

Sarah Vaughan. What an amazing historical detail.

[sistermagpie]

That was the most enjoyable episode so far. I felt like they really did a good job of creating enough clips etc. from the movie to give a good impression of what it was like and, more importantly, that it actually was really good. I totally believe Harvey could see that.

[Arcey]

Now why would Sarah Vaughn be singing in that club? That seemed completely unrealistic to me.

[LoveLeigh]

I have watched this show since season 1 and all of the episodes up to tonight's. Nothing happens. There is very little story content, except to watch them making lousy porn films. I am not surprised this show's forum has very little activity. I think a lot of viewers bailed. Nothing interesting is happening. It sort of flatlined. 

[Broderbits]

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

That was the most enjoyable episode so far. I felt like they really did a good job of creating enough clips etc. from the movie to give a good impression of what it was like and, more importantly, that it actually was really good. I totally believe Harvey could see that.

It might be good for a porn film, but that's an extremely low bar. Candy's movie is so derivative and she's basically just copying the masters. "Red Hot" will be launching many pretentious conversations about art among the hipsters of that age.

[nilyank]

Candy did not think it through when she had Larry chase Lori down the street.

Of course it was hilarious that Frankie got the mobster interested in investing when he saw the cops take down Larry thinking that it was part of the movie. 

[sugarbaker design]

Megan Abbott is one of my favorite contemporary novelists so I loved it when her name popped up as co-writer of this week's script.  I'd bet the farm she came up with "when it comes to fucking we're all beasts."

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Broderbits said:

It might be good for a porn film, but that's an extremely low bar. Candy's movie is so derivative and she's basically just copying the masters. "Red Hot" will be launching many pretentious conversations about art among the hipsters of that age.

Exactly! But that's a good thing. You could have pretentious conversations, but I think what Harvey meant was that it was fun and interesting to look at--that shot of her running up the stairs isn't original, but it was still a great visual. Having him get to the grandmother's house and they're waiting for him isn't a shocking twist, but it's still fun.

[BingeyKohan]

Two good episodes in a row. I suppose we're supposed to fear the crash for Candy on the horizon on hearing what's owed to the mob out of Red Hot proceeds? I want her to have a clear path toward success and prosperity - I think she's going to have some kind of choice to make at some point, and they're going to draw a contrast between her and Vince in terms of their feelings about the mob. Maybe we're tensing for her to hate it but they'll switch it up and she'll actually be open to it as a stepping stone to wealth and power? (As long as she can grab it for herself, not have it be another version of submitting to a pimp.)

The Candy/Lori dynamic is very interesting to me. As with Elizabeth Jennings on The Americans, when Candy is relating to Lori it always seems like she is half helping her or expressing a truth, half just working her to get what she needs out of whatever scene she's about to film.

I like Jamie Neumann a lot but I'm getting bored with Dorothy, and I'm worried that her prolonged exposure to her old environment is wearing on her. Also very tired of Bobby and was instantly over his son.

Are we at the halfway point in the season yet? 

[sugarbaker design]

According to imdb.com we're two thirds of the way into the 9 episode season.

[BingeyKohan]

22 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

According to imdb.com we're two thirds of the way into the 9 episode season.

Wow! Hm. The only thread that feels like it has momentum behind it is the completion and release of Candy's movie (surely that will get tied up this season because with another time jump between seasons it will be far behind us by the time season 3 starts) Some incipient violence will probably come into play in the next few episodes though I don't feel a ton of mounting suspense there. It's sort of weird knowing in advance about time jumps because it makes you think: what that is happening currently could be important enough that if we walk away from it for 5 years it will still feel important?

[dbklmt]

17 hours ago, Arcey said:

Now why would Sarah Vaughn be singing in that club? That seemed completely unrealistic to me.

It's not unrealistic as many Gay clubs especially in NYC had entertainment during this time frame. 

Bette Midler got her start singing in a Gay bathhouse in NYC.  http://www.back2stonewall.com/2018/09/watch-bette-midler-continental-baths-video.html

Edited October 15, 2018 by dbklmt
Replaced video with one that would work.

[Moxie Cat]

4 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

I like Jamie Neumann a lot but I'm getting bored with Dorothy, and I'm worried that her prolonged exposure to her old environment is wearing on her. Also very tired of Bobby and was instantly over his son.

I'm worried that Dorothy (or Ashley) is going to go back to CC, and his suppressed rage over Lori will kill her instead. I think we keep seeing signs that Ashley has this odd connection still with CC.

I did love her putting another girl on the bus, though - even though Loretta watching was a little creepy.

My early take that the mayor's guy was gay was right! I am shocked. I had been getting those vibes during his scenes with Allston but thought I was imagining it.

I am all in on this show and totally enjoy it. Maybe I'm just a sucker for most HBO period shows. But right now I'm super-into the "let's film a movie!" plot too. I love seeing Candy so successful. I wonder where her season 3 storyline will be.

BTW: two things I just discovered that blew my mind - Gary Carr (CC) is British and was Cousin Rose's musician boyfriend on Downton Abbey, and Margarita Levieva is 38 (!) and was a Russian gymnast. This cast is fascinating.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Moxie Cat

[Brooklynista]

Loved seeing Darlene shake down Larry for help running his lines. Dare I say I like their ...friendship?

Question, what happens to forgotten prostitutes? Larry Brown is about to become a STAH! Darlene is back in school and Loretta is hanging on to what exactly? Larry seems to have little interest in her and instead of being pleased with her freedom, she's annoyed at being cast aside. Can she give herself to Rodney or does some trade have to be formally done?

[txhorns79]

Quote

It's not unrealistic as many Gay clubs especially in NYC had entertainment during this time frame. 

Bette Midler got her start singing in a Gay bathhouse in NYC.

I think the difference is that Bette Midler was starting out, while Sarah Vaughn was a well established star.  I'd be surprised Paul would be able to have afforded her fee.  Though I'm honestly still not certain who is Paul's intended customer base (wealthy gay couples?), and how his place is going to be sustainable in the long run.  It's hard to put my finger on it, but it feels wrong for the era.

While I agree that Candy isn't exactly breaking new ground with Red Hot, I did like the twist ending where the hunted becomes the hunter.  I also just enjoyed the whole on the fly filming process.   

Quote

The Candy/Lori dynamic is very interesting to me. As with Elizabeth Jennings on The Americans, when Candy is relating to Lori it always seems like she is half helping her or expressing a truth, half just working her to get what she needs out of whatever scene she's about to film.

It's interesting.  Last week, Lori seemed to be reaching out to Candy, and Candy basically blew her off.  This week, Candy is trying to do a little bonding and Lori blows her off. 

And I've forgotten his name, but was that the mayor's aide who wanted to clean up the Deuce off having sex with random men at the baths? 

Edited October 16, 2018 by txhorns79

[EtheltoTillie]

4 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

 

The Candy/Lori dynamic is very interesting to me. As with Elizabeth Jennings on The Americans, when Candy is relating to Lori it always seems like she is half helping her or expressing a truth, half just working her to get what she needs out of whatever scene she's about to film.

 

This bugs me a bit. Too much talking exposition. That dialog where Candy was remembering Lori 's first day. Lazy writing. 

[slippity slack]

39 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

It's interesting.  Last week, Lori seemed to be reaching out to Candy, and Candy basically blew her off.  This week, Candy is trying to do a little bonding and Lori blows her off. 

 

I liked that Lori wasn't having the bonding and kept saying she didn't remember first time she met Candy. Maybe Lori is regretting getting emotional with Candy last week?

The plot didn't progress very much but I still enjoyed the episode. Larry was great in all of his scenes (getting hit by police car and trying to keep running! paying Darlene to coach him!). I'm still interested to see what happens with Dorothy and hoping it doesn't end badly with CC or Rodney. A random note: loved Abby's outfit for Paul's opening.

[Surrealist]

7 hours ago, nilyank said:

Of course it was hilarious that Frankie got the mobster interested in investing when he saw the cops take down Larry thinking that it was part of the movie. 

I started laughing at this part. Frankie just looked at him like "that really happened."
 

[Arcey]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

Quote

It's not unrealistic as many Gay clubs especially in NYC had entertainment during this time frame. 

Bette Midler got her start singing in a Gay bathhouse in NYC.

I think the difference is that Bette Midler was starting out, while Sarah Vaughn was a well established star.  I'd be surprised Paul would be able to have afforded her fee.  Though I'm honestly still not certain who is Paul's intended customer base (wealthy gay couples?), and how his place is going to be sustainable in the long run.  It's hard to put my finger on it, but it feels wrong for the era.

 

Yes, this is what I meant. Not "why would someone sing at a supper club" but specifically someone as famous as SV, in that particular club.

[MCMLXXVII]

The plot of “Red Hot” is eerily similar to a short story I wrote for a college class (without the porn scenes). Hunh.

Lori looks so much better in the red wig than that blonde shade. Hope she keeps it for awhile.

Edited October 16, 2018 by MCMLXXVII

[tennisgurl]

I love Larry's commitment to his art. 

I can see why Red Hot would be something special. Maybe for a non porn film, it wouldn't be anything amazing, but for porn? It seems to have some actually thematic shots, and real effort put into the acting and story, with some really nice shots of the city as well. I can totally buy that this would be something that would stand out from the porn crowd. 

There sure are a lot of plots running at the same time, huh? The closeted mayor assistant, Paul running his bar and boning around town, the porn shoot, the pimps, the mob, Dorothy and her activist buddies, the cops, and the usual ladies and hooking. Thats a lot of moving parts, will be interested in seeing if and when they all come together. 

Still interested in Candy and Lori and their scenes. I do think Candy likes her and feels for her, but she has been doing this for a long tine, and she is kind of spinning a story and "handling" things when she has to keep Lori going. And I think Lori is aware of that, but is still seeking her out, to an extent. I am still very, very concerned for her.

This season took a few weeks to get going, but I have really enjoyed the last few weeks. 

[Armchair Critic]

I enjoy when the show has the lighter moments but for me there is a lot of underlying tension.

When I see Paul or the mayor's assistant having anonymous hookups I cringe thinking of the AIDS epidemic and I assume that is going to affect some of these characters when the show does the time jump.

I hate that Frankie involved the mob in Candy's film, I want to see her be a success and break away.

Speaking of breaking away, I am also worried for Ashley/Dorothy that something bad is going to happen with her and CC.

[mytmo]

I liked this episode and it kept me engaged the entire time.  I fear something bad will happen to Lori.  She's having a hard time holding back her contempt for CC and CC has this weird girlfriend/ho relationship and he looked a tad jealous about her acting with the original wolf guy.  

Larry Brown cracks me up.

[shockermolar]

14 hours ago, Brooklynista said:

Question, what happens to forgotten prostitutes? Larry Brown is about to become a STAH! Darlene is back in school and Loretta is hanging on to what exactly?

Who does the baby belong to? Is there another girl in Larry's stable? (like how I use the lingo!) Darlene even mentioned the baby when she was bitching at Loretta about smoking in the apartment. Is it her's and that's why she's still hanging on maybe.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

Yes, this is what I meant. Not "why would someone sing at a supper club" but specifically someone as famous as SV, in that particular club.

A number of well-known, chart-topping musical artists will perform for private parties (e.g., bar mitzvahs, weddings) for a price, albeit a high one. I could see Miss Vaughan appearing under such circumstances, essentially since by the late 70s her career was beginning to wane a bit. The connection to the club was probably a "mutual friends" situation. I was okay with the reference.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Joimiaroxeu

[Armchair Critic]

10 hours ago, mytmo said:

I fear something bad will happen to Lori.  She's having a hard time holding back her contempt for CC and CC has this weird girlfriend/ho relationship and he looked a tad jealous about her acting with the original wolf guy.  

I wonder if they will have her end up like Dorothy Stratten (Star 80 )?

[TheNewJanBrady]

Again with too much jumping around between too many characters—do NOT care about the delinquent son and Paul’s club seems shoehorned in like he’s part of a different show, same with closeted gay baths guy. I finally liked Frankie, though.

[Rinaldo]

On 10/14/2018 at 11:39 PM, Joimiaroxeu said:

The reference to "bring your kid to work day" was an anachronism. That didn't start happening until the 90s--at least the "daughters" version didn't.

Someone could still have uttered that sentence; "bring <whatever> to work day" is a thing that's been said for a long time.

On 10/15/2018 at 2:01 AM, Arcey said:

Now why would Sarah Vaughn be singing in that club? That seemed completely unrealistic to me.

 

On 10/15/2018 at 7:36 PM, dbklmt said:

It's not unrealistic as many Gay clubs especially in NYC had entertainment during this time frame. 

 

I actually figured that was clearly a drag performer lip-syncing to a recording (who would indeed be introduced as the real thing, wink wink), but I guess I'm alone in that.

On 10/15/2018 at 8:55 PM, GussieK said:

This bugs me a bit. Too much talking exposition. That dialog where Candy was remembering Lori 's first day. Lazy writing. 

There was a lot of action in that speech, Candy trying get Lori in the right frame of mind, Lori seeing through that and not having it. Exposition shouldn't automatically be assumed to be bad, and dialogue can be a good thing if it's making something happen.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Rinaldo

[layniemac]

"Candy, can I please cut this man?" Best line of the show!

[yellowjacket]

On 10/15/2018 at 8:16 PM, Moxie Cat said:

BTW: two things I just discovered that blew my mind - Gary Carr (CC) is British and was Cousin Rose's musician boyfriend on Downton Abbey, and Margarita Levieva is 38 (!) and was a Russian gymnast. This cast is fascinating.

And Bobby's delinquent kid is played by Michael Gandolfini, son of the God of HBO!

[Arcey]

3 hours ago, yellowjacket said:

And Bobby's delinquent kid is played by Michael Gandolfini, son of the God of HBO!

Ha! I saw the name in the credits, and I meant to look it up to see which role he was playing, but I forgot to do that. Thanks for the info. And coincidentally I just finished listening to a podcast interview of Christofuh (Michael Imperioli) about his new novel, and of course a lot of the discussion turned to The Sopranos, including talking about James. It's a good interview, and shows some thoughtful sides of Michael. Here's a link to the podcast if you're interested. https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101867792/michael-imperioli-on-writing-lou-reed-and-life-after-the-sopranos (I know this is off topic, but we're talking about The Sopranos here, for god sakes. :) )

[nilyank]

On 10/16/2018 at 11:47 AM, Joimiaroxeu said:

A number of well-known, chart-topping musical artists will perform for private parties (e.g., bar mitzvahs, weddings) for a price, albeit a high one. I could see Miss Vaughan appearing under such circumstances, essentially since by the late 70s her career was beginning to wane a bit. The connection to the club was probably a "mutual friends" situation. I was okay with the reference.

We also know that Paul has been spending money to make the place a very, classy place so his spending beyond the budget. So I can see him going for broke by having a star on Opening Night.

[Dewey Decimate]

Every time the misbehaving nephew of Vincent's comes on the scene, I think, sheesh, how did this kid get a job? He has a weird voice, is not compelling to look at (he's not ugly, but just something about him doesn't feel tv-ready), and his acting is limited. When I caught the Gandolfini name in the credits, it all made sense!

Definitely enjoying Candy's story most, and the ascent of Larry Brown. If he becomes successful and somehow in some tiny way helps "his" girls, I'd be thrilled.

The odd snippets of Paul and the closeted police guy getting their rocks off feel purely like a set up for next season's Look Who's Aids-ing and Look Who's Aids-ing Too. I get why they want to bridge to future storylines but wish it were a little more nuanced.

[DangerousMinds]

Whose baby is it?

[TheNewJanBrady]

9 hours ago, Dewey Decimate said:

Look Who's Aids-ing and Look Who's Aids-ing Too.

Dying. (Of laughter. No pun intended.) And agree about Gandolfini Jr. not really having It factor.

[yellowjacket]

Full confession time: I love this show. At least half of the dialogue this season has consisted.of women talking with women,  which has had to be the result of some kind of intervention with the producers and writers.  Maggie Gyllenhall is the star, with Franco hanging around for exposition and plot (slowly) advancing.

Mostly I love it for how true to the times it is.  I know it's anvil-ly for the gay characters to be engaging in hotfun randomsex, but they did not know about AIDS.  So neither should we viewers. Also the porn movie  scene is about to get mainstream and cool - which will only last until the rise of video - but why should our show care?

Also, I think Franco is trying for a meta award here- he's basically toast for leading movie roles right now, so no big money is chasing him.   Hang around in this HBO series playing sex promoters for a while, see if the accusations of abuse fade, get credit for this female-positive series...Comeback!  And, yuck

[Rinaldo]

9 hours ago, yellowjacket said:

I know it's anvil-ly for the gay characters to be engaging in hotfun randomsex, but they did not know about AIDS.  

Indeed, it was not yet around to be known about. And the baths and other anonymous sexual situations are the simple truth about gay life in urban settings at that time. The rhetoric was that marriage and monogamy were for dull straight people, not for those on the sexual frontier. The Normal Heart conveyed this accurately -- that the news that abstinence, monogamy, and precautions were now necessary was taken as hateful infringements on fundamental rights. It's useful for a drama to capture that different time accurately. (And I think it does so without judgment.)

[Drogo]

Just now, Rinaldo said:

It's useful for a drama to capture that different time accurately. (And I think it does so without judgment.)

And with one of its more relatable characters.

[Dminches]

I really enjoy the moviemaking scenes because it is all about Candy’s attempt to transform from prostitution to a socially acceptable occupation (filmmaking).  I realize that she is making a porn flick but that’s where she has a chance to make a start.  

Why is Abby always so depressed?  When her character was first introduced she seemed happier as she freed herself from her parents.  Now she just seems to mope around.  Maybe she is just a very serious person.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Dminches

[txhorns79]

Quote

Why is Abby always so depressed?  When her character was first introduced she seemed happier as she freed herself from her parents.  Now she just seems to mope around.  Maybe she is just a very serious person.

I'd certainly be depressed if I had her haircut.  More seriously, while the show hasn't been great in showing much change in the characters, it has been five or so years since her character was like that. 

[DangerousMinds]

She doesn’t seem depressed to me.

[DiabLOL]

I don't see Abby as depressed

 I see her as smug and I'm always wondering why she is where she is since she seems to think she's so much smarter and all round better than everyone else.

Also don't think she's actually cool with being in her open relationship so why pretend to be.

[DangerousMinds]

In season 1 when Vince asked her to move in with him, IIRC, she was the one who wanted an open relationship.

[DiabLOL]

2 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

In season 1 when Vince asked her to move in with him, IIRC, she was the one who wanted an open relationship.

Yeah maybe we're watching her sour on the idea.

[PamelaMaeSnap]

On 10/15/2018 at 2:01 AM, Arcey said:

Now why would Sarah Vaughn be singing in that club? That seemed completely unrealistic to me.

Rewatched this last night so I can refamiliarize myself with S1-2 before bingeing 3 and my thought was that it might have been a Sarah Vaughn drag impersonator. Possibly/probably way offbase with this theory but throwing it out there.