Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Trailer has a Watchman vibe.

Batman really wants to throw dem hands with Superman.

Guess he didn't see Kal El punching Zod's ass all over Metropolis.

Edited April 19, 2015 by MrsRafaelBarba

[Kromm]

What I can guess from this is that nothing has likely been learned from the last Superman movie, and that we're due another round of mass slaughter going around behind the fight as our so-called "heroes" punch it out.

[Trini]

I'll gripe about what I know: I'm annoyed they're still sticking with that lazily merged logo. Can't they throw some money at that? /graphic design major

[MarkHB]

I didn't think it was that lazily merged; they at least added the detail of the crumbling on the lower right of the shield.  I think it looks pretty good on the website ( http://www.batmanvsupermandawnofjustice.com/).  Granted, I'm a computer programmer, so from whence it comes....

[JessePinkman]

New posters (teaser posters? I guess that's a thing now)

https://twitter.com/ZackSnyder/status/589942078341152770/photo/1

https://twitter.com/ZackSnyder/status/589941893305212929/photo/1

 

They look cool even if I think Zack Snyder is a fratboy hack.

[Trini]

I didn't think it was that lazily merged; they at least added the detail of the crumbling on the lower right of the shield.  I think it looks pretty good on the website ( http://www.batmanvsupermandawnofjustice.com/).  Granted, I'm a computer programmer, so from whence it comes....

 

Oh, it is. When it first came out, I thought it was a placeholder for the real art. The Superman part looks good because they used the same 3-D rendered art from Man of Steel, which was clearly thought out. Now they've plopped that into the Bat-symbol with a bevel-emboss/drop shadow effect that takes --literally-- seconds in Photoshop. I've been waiting months for WB to improve it; I guess I can stop now.  :(

[MarkHB]

New posters (teaser posters? I guess that's a thing now)

https://twitter.com/ZackSnyder/status/589942078341152770/photo/1

https://twitter.com/ZackSnyder/status/589941893305212929/photo/1

 

They look cool even if I think Zack Snyder is a fratboy hack.

 

I and others believe those (may be T-shirts) are the swag that will be given out at the IMAX trailer screenings tonight.  Wish me luck; I am going into Boston for it.

[Lord Kira]

A gritty and serious movie where a dark, brooding Superman comes to blows with a dark, brooding Batman. Yawn.

The whole appeal of Batman and Superman coming together is their differences. Superman is an icon, a symbol of hope, optimism, and safety. (Which Man of Steel didn't bother showing) Seeing Superman's idealism coming face to face with Batman's darkness would be an event for the ages. But having them both be dark and angsty makes the iconic meeting much less special.

I'm sure the movie will get Batman right, but Superman is screwed. DC/WB just doesn't get Superman. And that is just sad.

[Samsnee]

But but but how would the real world deal with the idea of a Superman who has so much power?

Um probably the same way they deal with a grown man dressed as a "bat".

But this thing will still make a billion dollars so 5 years from now we'll finally get that Plastic Man movie where he kills bad guys by stretching them that we've all been asking for.

[Lord Kira]

But but but how would the real world deal with the idea of a Superman who has so much power?

 

 

Thing is, I'd be okay with them using that plot if Superman as a character was portrayed as he should be instead of just being Batman 2.0. What we have in these movies is Superman In Name Only.

 

Ironically, Nolan was the worst thing to ever happen to DC Comics movies. DC/WB's takeaway from his trilogy's success seems to be that all of their heroes need to be dark, gritty, edgy, and realistic.They don't seem to realize that Nolan's tone doesn't fit every single superhero.

[JessePinkman]

Batman himself doesn't quite fit the rest of the DC comic book universe. Gotham is a city in a constant state of chaos, with a hero the citizens rarely see and depending on the writer regard as a myth (I never understood how that worked with Batman on the JLA but I never read much DC) whereas the other DC cities are largely protected by heroes the populace know and trust. Like you, Lord Kira, I think they're making a mistake forcing Batman's tone onto the other characters.

[MarkHB]

I went to the special IMAX preview screening of the trailer in Boston tonight; this was supposed to be the premiere night for it, but that got blown when it leaked last week.

 

Takeaways of note:

• Zack Snyder, standing in front of the Batmobile, was all excited about filming in IMAX, to the extent that he specifically pointed out that the last scene (the "do you bleed" sequence) was filmed in IMAX format.  From the film aspects, it looked like the scene where Superman is hovering in the sky above one person was also an IMAX original.
• There were only about 5 additional seconds of footage; they come at the very end: we see Superman in a crouch with a really, really pissed look on his face, he charges Batman who is in the armor we see in the trailer, Batman does likewise and we see these two behemoths about to collide when it cuts to black.  Zack said in his comments that that preview is the ONLY place where those extra seconds will be on the trailer.
• Oh, and everyone who was there and gave their email address will get invited to a special preview screening of the actual movie about a week before the premiere next year :P  :D .

I don't think Snyder's Superman is overly grim; I think they're deliberately taking their time with the process of becoming: how does he get to be the Superman we all know?  When I see him in this trailer I see him in the light, with masses of people seeing him as a hero and a savior; it's the nattering nabobs of negativism (including those whose own position is threatened) who have an issue with him and are stirring up resentment.

 

Also, I created a transcript of the trailer, under these spoiler tags in case anyone is going to try to remain unspoiled (I recommend a monastery).  Again, if anyone has a clue about who the unknown speakers are (not the ones in italics that are cut-ins) I'd love to know.

 

1. Charlie Rose: Is it really surprising, that the most powerful man in the world, should be a figure of controversy?

2. Unknown: We, as a population on this planet, have been looking for a savior.

3. Neil Degrasse Tyson: We're talking about a being alien whose very existence (woman: They are not telling us the truth) challenges our own sense of priority (man chanting: This is our planet!) in the universe.

4. Unknown: Human beings have a horrible track record of (woman: Tragedy) following people of great power

5. Holly Hunter: Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. (woman: Terror. Chaos.)

6. Unknown: Maybe he's just a guy trying to do the right thing.

7. Lex Luthor: But we know better now, don't we? (man shouting: He's out of control!) Devils don't come from Hell beneath us. (man, trembling: They brought their warrior.)  No, they come from the sky.

8. Holly Hunter: The world has been so caught up in what he can do, that no one has asked what he should do.

9. Crowds chanting: Go Home! Go Home! Go Home! Go Home!

10: Alfred Pennyworth: That's how it starts. The fever. The rage. The feeling of powerlessness that turns good men... cruel.

11: Batman: Tell me, do you bleed?  You will.

[Kromm]

I don't think Snyder's Superman is overly grim; I think they're deliberately taking their time with the process of becoming: how does he get to be the Superman we all know?  When I see him in this trailer I see him in the light, with masses of people seeing him as a hero and a savior; it's the nattering nabobs of negativism (including those whose own position is threatened) who have an issue with him and are stirring up resentment.

I think Snyder, if he's aiming for that, has the same problem DC Comics themselves had for a lot of years when they were too stuck in Grim N' Gritty-land (I think that lasted, at least the last cycle when they did that, a little over a decade, but they've had several waves of that problem).  And Marvel has often had this problem too.  That you've really got to be careful with these global scale holocausts they want to have to amp up stories--especially when the "heroes" wind up being the cause and main actors in them. I mean why SHOULD anyone trust Superman, when he tosses people into buildings, causing endless billions of dollars of damage, and presumably in the worst interpretation allowing endless deaths and injuries because he's having a slugfest against someone else?  Yes, "the bad guy caused the problem" in the first place. But the aspirational aspect of Superman, as unbelievable as it seems to actually implement, is that he's not simply trading a slightly less nightmarish outcome for a totally nightmarish one, but instead keeping the nightmares away completely.  He HAS to be somewhat unrealistic in his portrayal or it's just stories where he's the biggest gun possible, but still a gun.

[Trini]

 

2. Unknown: We, as a population on this planet, have been looking for a savior.

 

I think this may be Lex Luthor/Eisenberg also.

[MarkHB]

Batman News has a new high-def closeup video of the Trinity costumes, courtesy of Bleacher Report.  It's on dailymotion so I can't automagically embed it here.  The detail, especially on the Superman suit, is stunning.

[greenbean]

I agree so much with the comments here! I have my own beliefs about how the rise of Batman has suffocated the rest of the DC world. Everything needs to be done with that Batman tone. It's so annoying!

[MarkHB]

After watching the trailer a few hundred times (maybe), something has occurred to me regarding the last scene where Superman drops out of the sky: what if he didn't land deliberately, but Batman managed to cut out his flying power or pull him out of the sky somehow?  That could explain the hard landing that smashes the pavement, the extra footage from the IMAX showing where he and Batman were running towards each other (i.e., Supes isn't flying)... and it also adds a layer to the "Do you bleed?" <Superman is pulled to Earth> "You will..." sequence.

[Bruinsfan]

Yeah, I was going to ask if there's anything in the comics that leads to this kind of hostility.  I've never seen/heard anything about Superman other than him being a good guy-a hero.

 

"Hey, the masked vigilante in all-black armor who uses his military-grade hardware to fight muggers and burglars says we shouldn't trust the smiley flying guy who willingly surrendered to the US government, sided with us against his own kind, and spends his time rescuing people from accidents and natural disasters. Sounds legit to me!"

Edited April 23, 2015 by Bruinsfan

[bluvelvet]

 

11: Batman: Tell me, do you bleed?  You will.

 

 

For some reason, this line in the trailer just sounded kinda cheesy to me. Other than that I like the trailer but agree about the "grim and grimmer" aspect of it. Anyway, 2016.. How many years have we been waiting again?

[Jediknight]

 

"Hey, the masked vigilante in all-black armor who uses his military-grade hardware to fight muggers and burglars says we shouldn't trust the smiley flying guy who willingly surrendered to the US government, sided with us against his own kind, and spends his time rescuing people from accidents and natural disasters. Sounds legit to me!"

Zod, if ever there was a writer who should never write Superman, it's Frank Miller.  Hopefully Zack Snyder didn't listen to him.

[greenbean]

I'm apprehensive because of Miller's involvement.

[HoodlumSheep]

For some reason, this line in the trailer just sounded kinda cheesy to me. Other than that I like the trailer but agree about the "grim and grimmer" aspect of it. Anyway, 2016.. How many years have we been waiting again?

That line did seem cheesy.

I can't unsee the videogame-like quality of the teaser. I just can't.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Now THIS is a movie I would watch.

 

Conroy? Brown? Daly? I'd be SO in.

[Bruinsfan]

If Conroy hadn't physically aged out of the part, I'd root for him to be cast in the live action role.

[ribboninthesky1]

Ditto! 

 

The animated trailer was great! Clancy!Lex shall always be my favorite. 

[Athena]

If Conroy hadn't physically aged out of the part, I'd root for him to be cast in the live action role.

 

Conroy will always be my Batman.

[Dandesun]

Conroy spoiled us all.

 

And now, we seem to be forever stuck with actors who end up doing a "Batman Voice" that makes you accidentally snarf your Skittles in the theater when you hear it.

[Crs97]

I don't read the comics. All I know about superheroes comes from the Saturday morning cartoon, and I thought they were friends in the Hall of Justice. Could someone please tell me why they now hate each other?

[Joe]

Because Chistopher Nolan had an idea to do Batman as somewhat grim and gritty. In a kind of cargo cult effect, DC thinks that because Batman worked well that way, everything has to be that way. Comics readers went through this after Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns, but Zac Snyder still hasn't got it out of his system. Maybe if this underperforms, they'll look and try to work out what went wrong. But if that happens, they'll probably come up with the wrong answer anyway.

[BatmanBeatles]

If I'm not mistaken, it was Frank Millar who made Batman dark and gritty.

[Zuleikha]

Frank Miller is responsible for the comics and Nolan is responsible for the movies. It's a shared burden. Nolan, however, doesn't seem to have Miller's creepy women issues.

[Trini]

I don't read the comics. All I know about superheroes comes from the Saturday morning cartoon, and I thought they were friends in the Hall of Justice. Could someone please tell me why they now hate each other?

 

The Justice League isn't formed and they're not friends yet. They're only just meeting each other in this one.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Trini

[ribboninthesky1]

Yeah, even in the DC Animated Universe from the 90s-00s (the world I'm most familiar with), they are antagonistic towards each other at first.  So in that respect, I don't have a problem with them not being BFFs in the trailer.  

Edited May 8, 2015 by ribboninthesky1

[MarkHB]

Frank Miller is responsible for the comics and Nolan is responsible for the movies. It's a shared burden. Nolan, however, doesn't seem to have Miller's creepy women issues.

 

Miller postulated a world where Bruce resented Clark for his perceived "selling out".  Alan Moore picked up a similar theme in Watchmen a year or two later (Dreiberg: "Those were good times.  Whatever happened to those?"  Rorschach: "You quit.")  The "real" Batman/Superman split came at the hands of John Byrne when he rebooted Superman following Crisis on Infinite Earths; he felt that Superman's law, order and apple pie sensibilities would be at odds with a vigilante handing out his own justice, and wound up with the two of them having a grudging mutual respect (which came to full fruition a year or so later when Clark gave Bruce Luthor's chunk of kryptonite, as a fail-safe against himself).  My hunch is that something similar may happen here, although I think Bruce is going to be coming more from a standpoint of "humanity needs to be reassured that it isn't helpless before the godlike alien" than from actual animosity.  It's tough to say, though... without the real context, there's no telling if Affleck's staring at the Batsuit in the trailer will actually stem from "the fever, the rage" or from something else.

[Kromm]

The problem is that the Snyderverse doesn't let Superman represent law & order, because it's grounded now in him being part of destroying a city, ergo they have to flip the script there and come up with some other rationale for the split, and distinguish it from Lex Luthor, who'll also be pushing the "don't trust the alien" agenda.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Kromm

[greenbean]

Yeah, isn't that Lex's issue with Superman? It does feels like they took Lex's motivations and gave them to Batman. I'm no comic book expert, but certainly in Lex Luthor: Man of Steel, the whole thing of Superman undermining humanity by being godlike was explored. And I've always wished they'd flesh movie!Lex out in similar fashion, rather than just have him as some crazy villain. This is why Rosenbaum's Lex is my favourite live action portrayal. There were some subtleties.

 

Anyway, I'm really starting to dislike Batman tbh. It seems his more bitter and miserable fans have taken control of the DC movie-verse. That final line where Batman asks if Superman bleeds, and then says he's going to, is everything I fear this film is going to be. 120 odd minutes of undermining Superman just to lift up Batman.

 

 

Maybe if this underperforms, they'll look and try to work out what went wrong. But if that happens, they'll probably come up with the wrong answer anyway.

 

Superman will be blamed. They don't like him, they see him as a character who needs to be fixed. I don't mind exploring alternate Supermans, like in the Justice Lords or Timm's recent plan. But recent portrayals of "proper" Superman have been very poor and unnecessarily dark.

Edited May 11, 2015 by greenbean

[GHScorpiosRule]

Anyway, I'm really starting to dislike Batman tbh. It seems his more bitter and miserable fans have taken control of the DC movie-verse. That final line where Batman asks if Superman bleeds, and then says he's going to, is everything I fear this film is going to be. 120 odd minutes of undermining Superman just to lift up Batman.

How so? I'm a diehard fan of Batman and I am very, very bitter that Snyder decided to do this take on him. I hate Affleck. I know of a lot of people who don't like this take. But all of this on Snyder and Nolan. I'm miserable because they've decided to make Batman a miserable character. Sure, sure, they weren't friends at first, but it appears that Affleck's take his "The Dark Knight Returns" when he (Batman) is supposed to be in his 50s.  Superman is still very young right now, and so I hate it. They were all relatively young when JL was formed. There are so many things about this movie I hate already, and before anyone jumps on me with the casting of Heath Ledger as Joker, let me say that I found the casting interesting and wasn't among those that were howling and saying it was a bad choice.

 

And now I'll step off my bitterness box.

[greenbean]

Well I have not seen many Batman fans express displeasure with the current portrayals of Batman. I do keep hearing that Nolan's version is the best yet. But I wasn't really talking about what I consider general fans. I was referring to Miller - who has always been very bitter and hostile towards Superman - and the contingent of Batman fans who are Miller fanboys and share his disdain for Superman. They also have a strong desire for "seriousness" and darkness. It's this mindset that is currently influencing the DC verse. I mean I love Timm, but his new project is an example of where things currently are.

 

ETA: I agree with your critique on things.

Edited May 11, 2015 by greenbean

[Kel Varnsen]

Here are the things I liked:

-Humans have mixed feelings about the alien who saved the earth/destroyed a major city (one rarely gets a second chance at a first impression).

 

The one thing I really liked in Man of Steel was how it touched on the fact that Superman (and Zod) being on Earth confirms that there are aliens out there (and more advanced ones at that). It also sort of looked at how that would affect people, their faith/beliefs and where they see themselves in the universe. That to me is one thing Marvel has never really looked at. I mean in their universe, it has been proven that Norse mythology is real and not just ancient made up stories, plus that there are other aliens out there. How would people react to that, especially religious people, when the god who saved the world wasn't a Christian God or a Hindu god, it was Thor the Norse god of thunder. But other than that this movie doesn't look that exciting to me. I mean would it kill them to throw in the tinest bit of humour?

[revbfc]

And how would Thor react to Das Rheingold (or the whole ring cycle) and fascist neo-pagans that revere mjölnir as their symbol?

My guess is that he'd like his depiction in Das Rheingold (Donner gets the big finale), and a bit pissed by the white power pagans.

Edited May 19, 2015 by revbfc

[Bruinsfan]

Based on friendship with Hogun and Heimdall, I doubt racism is something Thor would be fond of in his followers (or even understand, as applied to skin color rather than actual species). But he does come from an autocratic warrior society that conquered multiple worlds, so some of the principles that we find abhorrent in Nazism might not trouble him.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I mean would it kill them to throw in the tinest bit of humour?

 

In a word, yes.

[Kel Varnsen]

In a word, yes.

Which I don't understand because even the Nolan movies, had lighter sometimes even funny moments in them.  The whole tag line for the second one was "Why so serious?". 

 

Personally I think the only reason that Nolan agreed to stay on and act as a producer for these movies is just to make sure no one else involved with them tried to force them to be in the same universe as his Dark Knight movies.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Kel Varnsen

[stealinghome]

I do think that one of the things the DC movieverse hasn't totally realized--or hasn't managed to replicate to the same degree--is that Nolan Batman movies were successful because they balanced dark and grim and gritty with levity and a real sense of hope. You could believe that there was a brighter future, not just for Bruce for for Gotham and humanity more broadly, because when the chips were down, people came through (the passengers on the boats refusing to blow each other up in TDK; the police walking into a suicide mission in TDKR, or the resistance to Bane in TDKR).

 

Now, that balance may have been what they were going for in Man of Steel, but that's not really the feeling I had when I walked out of the theater (and I'm someone who quite liked Man of Steel). MoS wasn't really concerned with humanity at large, and I would say its depiction of people was mixed. So I'm hoping--no pun intended!--that that general faith/hope n humanity is something that they manage to pull off in BvS, but I'm nervous, not gonna lie.

[revbfc]

I disagree about the lack of hope in the DCCU. We may have only seen the grim side in the trailers, but the hope is in the title "Dawn Of Justice." You know the cliché "It's always darkest before the dawn"? Well, that's what I believe is implied.

[Trini]

Official synopsis:
 

Fearing the actions of a god-like Super Hero left unchecked, Gotham City’s own formidable, forceful vigilante takes on Metropolis’s most revered, modern-day savior, while the world wrestles with what sort of hero it really needs. And with Batman and Superman at war with one another, a new threat quickly arises, putting mankind in greater danger than it’s ever known before.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Trini

[millennium]

Yeah, I was going to ask if there's anything in the comics that leads to this kind of hostility.  I've never seen/heard anything about Superman other than him being a good guy-a hero.

 

That said, I wasn't totally dissatisfied with the trailer--but, I'll need to see a bit more before I decide if I want to invest time or money into it.

 

Isn't the movie based on Frank Miller's Dark Knight trilogy?  In that series, Superman is a tool of an oppressive government.   The enforcer of a militarized order.   Batman represents anarchy.    That's what pits them against each other.   I think the movie uses Miller's work as a springboard, which may account for the initial hostility towards Superman.

 

To someone who grew up reading World's Finest, I feel a long way from home.

[millennium]

Well I have not seen many Batman fans express displeasure with the current portrayals of Batman. I do keep hearing that Nolan's version is the best yet. But I wasn't really talking about what I consider general fans. I was referring to Miller - who has always been very bitter and hostile towards Superman - and the contingent of Batman fans who are Miller fanboys and share his disdain for Superman. They also have a strong desire for "seriousness" and darkness. It's this mindset that is currently influencing the DC verse. I mean I love Timm, but his new project is an example of where things currently are.

 

ETA: I agree with your critique on things.

 

My Batman is the one created by Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams.   The Marshall Rogers version of Batman was great too.   And among later artists/writers, I think Matt Wagner captured the character perfectly.

 

I went to high school with David Mazzuchelli (we were on the school newspaper together, lol) but Batman Year One never did it for me.

 

I don't understand Miller's appeal.   Or Nolan's, for that matter.  Maybe there's a segment of fandom that likes to see heroes court the dark side.   It always seemed to me that in a world with so many superheroes, the dystopian settings of these films would never come to pass.   Superheroes are about keeping hope alive and evil at bay.   To see Superman and Batman existing in these dark, grimy worlds sends a message that they are victims like the rest of us, that they and the rest of the Justice League fell asleep at the switch and  let the bad stuff happen.    It's all too Watchmen for my taste.

Edited June 9, 2015 by millennium

[Jazzy24]

I wish Superman would kill Batman, that is all.

[Bruinsfan]

I'd prefer Superman keep his lifetime neck-snapping tally to one for the foreseeable future. Even so, I'm definitely rooting for him against the Miller Batman. As for the "war" itself, I would imagine that even a billionaire would have a great deal of trouble getting his hands on armaments capable of harming a Kryptonian. It took an air-to-surface guided missile to knock out Faora, and she appeared to be fundamentally uninjured later in the movie; so we're talking bunker-busters or tac nukes. Unless Batman's equipment is just diversionary tactics and he relies on Wonder Woman to do the actual fighting, he's starting at a huge disadvantage.