Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

[Racj82]

Right there with you on all this. About the only thing I can say nice about Routh's turn in the role is that he clearly respected Christopher Reeve's work; so much so that he was doing an impression rather than his own interpretation (sadly with a tiny fraction of Reeve's charisma). Cavill is playing a more stoic Superman/Clark, but I think he does give the character depth and gravitas rather than being paper thin. And since I grew up with George Reeves' smart, confident Clark Kent I much prefer that approach to the pretense of being a bumbling milquetoast that the Donner movies featured. I also happen to think Cavill and Amy Adams had scorching hot chemistry in the first movie, though since most of their interaction this time around was in hostage scenes there really wasn't a chance to revisit it.

What depth is there to Clark Kent in these movies? We still barely understand the guy. He's just a walking cypher of a character. So so bland. I think Cavill is up to the task of giving more layers to his character but it's all just a bunch of moping around as Clark and Superman. They didn't do a good enough job establishing his arcs at any point in the movie and Cavill did nothing to make it stick nor could he the way it was written. Superman needed a another movie to establish him as Superman and as a symbol to this city. We miss a whole two years of that development. Edited March 29, 2016 by Racj82

[Bruinsfan]

There was the dour loner bit at the beginning of MoS, the flashback to being an angry and rebellious college kid chafing under his father's direction, the more gregarious bits with Lois, the rising excitement upon finding out about his roots from Jor-El, the joy when telling Martha about what he'd learned, warm fondness when reassuring her it didn't impact their mother-son relationship, worry and distrust shading to appalled outrage as he interacted more with Zod's band of war criminals and found out about their plans, blind fury when Martha was assaulted, sad resignation when he realized he'd have to destroy all the remnants of his heritage to save humanity, etc. I thought Cavill showed an impressive range of emotions and character attitudes, though most of them were relatively quiet and understated for a comic book movie.

[Kromm]

What, Exactly, Was Lex Luthor’s Plan in Batman v Superman?

 

I told my friend yesterday that the only way to enjoy this movie is to not think about it too much.

And this highlights the big difference between two distinct extremes of how people watch the movie (and maybe MOST movies these days).  People who want spectacle, vs. people who want movies to ultimately make sense. 

 

Actually as I've gotten older I think I've dug into a middleground that probably pisses off people on both extremes. I can handwave technical details, but what I can't tolerate is handwaving people's motivations... or intelligently explaining their motivations inside a film at least. 

 

Now I've heard that there are tons of hints/evidence that got laid down, and some cut, that Lex basically was being driven insane by Darkseid and thus anything illogical he does is explained by that.  But this leads to the core of the problem... that even when writers DO have explanations... if they get cut and leave a mess then simply making up for it in a future film, or a "Director's Edition" is kind of bullshit.

[Racj82]

There was the dour loner bit at the beginning of MoS, the flashback to being an angry and rebellious college kid chafing under his father's direction, the more gregarious bits with Lois, the rising excitement upon finding out about his roots from Jor-El, the joy when telling Martha about what he'd learned, warm fondness when reassuring her it didn't impact their mother-son relationship, worry and distrust shading to appalled outrage as he interacted more with Zod's band of war criminals and found out about their plans, blind fury when Martha was assaulted, sad resignation when he realized he'd have to destroy all the remnants of his heritage to save humanity, etc. I thought Cavill showed an impressive range of emotions and character attitudes, though most of them were relatively quiet and understated for a comic book movie.

A lot of variations on anger and not much else. But, it's fine. Synder has a lot more to do with why Superman sucks than anything else. It also just comes down to not buying what a movie is selling. Motivations and arcs are being told that I don't buy because it's not sold or written well enough.

The we hate movies podcast ripping on the movie is leaving me in tears. Them riffing on Holly Hunters accent in this movie is a killer.

I've found myself not even being able to handle this movie being defended as a movie that is great or even good. While I've seen many comic book movies or movies in general with the same type of flaws it also hurts the movie that it's so often boring. A flawed movie is one thing. But a flawed movie this boring is something else entirely. Is it as bad as the 29% rotten tomatoes rating? Nah. Worst comic movie ever? Nah. Not even close. Is there a fair amount of positives to it? Sure. Mainly the Batman stuff, the visuals and...some other stuff throughout. But, like people keep comparing this to Ultron because Ultron also had pacing issues, a lot of shoehorned plots in it, etc. Sure. Can't deny that. But, there is chemistry between the cast that just exist anywhere in here. No real levity to balance out the heavier stuff. Fight scenes I can follow. Plot set ups that extend to other solo movies instead of one big event movie after two movies of build.

[coppersin]

I think "MOURNING" was misspelled on the front page of the Daily Planet.

The headline was something like "Night of Terror, Morning of Grief."

 

 

Zack Snyder admitted in an interview that they killed Superman because he didn't know what to do with him. And that he felt that way during Man of Steel too, that he just doesn't know what to do with this guy.

Ugh, if this is true, it takes away one of the few positives I had with this movie: Superman's death being useful. Someone making a Big Hero Sacrifice seemed inevitable, and I knew it would probably be Superman who I also knew probably wouldn't stay dead. So why bother? Because it gives them a smooth way to get rid of the Clark Kent angle. In a world with internet and facial recognition and high-def everything, it's a little much to believe that no one would look past the glasses because Cavill is a pretty pretty man, and people are bound to stare.

 

 

Now I've heard that there are tons of hints/evidence that got laid down, and some cut, that Lex basically was being driven insane by Darkseid and thus anything illogical he does is explained by that.  But this leads to the core of the problem... that even when writers DO have explanations... if they get cut and leave a mess then simply making up for it in a future film, or a "Director's Edition" is kind of bullshit.

I actually didn't mind Eisenberg's portrayal because it seemed clear from the start that he was a bit "off" and it just kept building. Then he mentioned "him" at the end and wondered if his wackadoo behavior was Darkseid's influence all along. There were several times in the movie, with him and with others, that clearly felt to me like hints of future storylines, except that it was such a muddled mess that it wasn't clear what we should be curious about and what was just the film being badly done.

 

It's like they want us to have all these reasons to be eager for Justice League, and most of those reasons got lost in the incoherency of the movie. Was Bruce dreaming, or was that really a glimpse of a possible future? What was Flash really trying to warn him about? Lex: WTF?

[nobodyyoucare]

 

it's a little much to believe that no one would look past the glasses because Cavill is a pretty pretty man, and people are bound to stare.

One thing the movies etc never explained is that Superman actually has some mental powers. He basically gets rid of the ability of people to think that Clark Kent is Superman based on appearance alone. 

[Kromm]

I've found myself not even being able to handle this movie being defended as a movie that is great or even good. While I've seen many comic book movies or movies in general with the same type of flaws it also hurts the movie that it's so often boring. A flawed movie is one thing. But a flawed movie this boring is something else entirely. 

Bad movies are one thing. Disrespectful ones are another thing entirely. The ultimate shame is that this is clearly a case where that doesn't matter in the least the the financial success of the movie. 

 

Having a different vision of a character is fine. But you've got to earn the right to deviate on a character or a legend by it making sense/being logical/well thought out (and making it's way onto film that way--if something needed winds up on a cutting room floor it's worse than useless). This not making sense and needing people to defend it and talk about having to turn their brains off to watch it just doubles the disrespect. 

 

In other words, if you can't respect a character by sticking to the classic elements, you need to instead respect it through quality. Battlestar Galactica proved you can do this. Zach Snyder has proved you can make money by NOT doing so, but don't you dare wonder why classic fans aren't happy in that case.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Kromm

[BatmanBeatles]

Why do I have the feeling that next movie will be like "The Search For Spock"?

[Kromm]

One thing the movies etc never explained is that Superman actually has some mental powers. He basically gets rid of the ability of people to think that Clark Kent is Superman based on appearance alone. 

I wouldn't say he "has it" as much as it's an explanation that's been weaved in and out of various versions, especially in the golden age when stuff didn't really have to make sense.  Mind you, at other times they simply explained it as magic (the DCU's always had magic), or super-science involving some special property of the "glass" that was used in the glasses (which was supposedly crystal from Kal-El's rocket ship). 

I actually didn't mind Eisenberg's portrayal because it seemed clear from the start that he was a bit "off" and it just kept building. Then he mentioned "him" at the end and wondered if his wackadoo behavior was Darkseid's influence all along. There were several times in the movie, with him and with others, that clearly felt to me like hints of future storylines, except that it was such a muddled mess that it wasn't clear what we should be curious about and what was just the film being badly done.

Well that and in the widely reported (as well as officially released) deleted scene apparently he seems to be playing with Mother Boxes, that old standbye of New Gods stories. 

 

And this gets back to how annoying and self-defeating it is to plan a movie so badly that for time purposes you have to remove important information like this from a film. I mean explaining why Lex does something, even through implication, seems like it matters. Instead we get ninety million slow motion shots that probably waste tons of time that could have been devoted to story instead.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Kromm

[GHScorpiosRule]

I actually didn't mind Eisenberg's portrayal because it seemed clear from the start that he was a bit "off" and it just kept building. Then he mentioned "him" at the end and wondered if his wackadoo behavior was Darkseid's influence all along.

 

I suppose I have no right/standing to say anything since I haven't watched the movie, but...even if Lex is "off," he should still be recognizable as Lex Luthor.  I mean, toward the end of Batman/Superman: Public Enemies when Lex, as the President of the United States, "loses it," and goes Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs, he's still Lexfucking!Luthor.  Then again, it is ClancyFucking!Brown voicing/portraying him, so that might be the difference.

[Lantern7]

coppersin . . . ah. Sorry about that. I must have misread the headline. I'll have to move my nitpicking to Laurence Fisburn playing Perry White as a slightly more subdued JK Simmons/J. Jonah Jameson. And why does he insist Clark cover local football? I'm guessing the Daily Planet still hasn't filled all of the vacancies made possible by the Kryptonian hoedown from eighteen months ago.

 

ETA from Comics Alliance: a "unique" Batman/Superman fight from 1964. Also, books to check out after watching BvS.

[Mars477]

Watching clips from Captain America The First Avenger again, it's mindboggling how much better a Superman Cap makes than the actual Superman that we've gotten.

[JessePinkman]

I feel alone in absolutely hating Wonder Woman's theme music. Every time it started (which was literally every time her face was onscreen) I found it so incredibly jarring. The drums were very cool but everything else I found to be a complete mess. Or miss. Miss mess.
 

Watching clips from Captain America The First Avenger again, it's mindboggling how much better a Superman Cap makes than the actual Superman that we've gotten.

DC seems afraid to make a movie with a kind-hearted lead. Like Superman can't just be purely good, because that's "boring". No, he has to be stoic all the time. It's either/or with them and that's just so wrongheaded. The most appealing scenes in this movie were the ones where Clark acted like a regular man, when he got into the tub with Lois and when he argued with Perry about doing the Batman story. He came across like a person with some depth. We needed more of that.

Edited March 29, 2016 by JessePinkman

[Dandesun]

Watching clips from Captain America The First Avenger again, it's mindboggling how much better a Superman Cap makes than the actual Superman that we've gotten.

 

Cap's my absolute favorite in the MCU and I never thought they'd be able to pull him off in the movies. And I know that some find him boring because he's such a good guy. Okay, that's a matter of taste to me. The thing is, Cap and Supes are both Good Guys but in very different ways and in very different circumstances. There are as many different ways to be a good guy as there are to be an anti-hero or a bad guy, really.

 

Isn't it strange that Clark/Kal-El can have a 'normal' life and fall in love and be a part of the world but Cap/Steve seems so removed from the world in so many ways? Clark was raised in as normal a fashion as possible (mis-steps notwithstanding in MoS) while Steve's connections all pretty much disappeared while he was in the ice. Clark was always different, Steve was always a victim... in that he was sickly and weak and got beat up all the time. Both use their strength to help others.

 

I do feel that true heroes, the Goodest Good Guys, are difficult to write because we are all so fallible that it's hard to relate to someone who honestly tries to do their best but it's worth it to find those who can dig a little deeper and give nuance to the Best of Men. Clark and Steve both have some tragedy about them as their worlds are gone yet they keep on fighting.

 

There are loads of stories out there of Superman being the good guy that don't come off as cloying. Why not read 'All-Star Superman' to get some inspiration there? Superman is the guy who will save people on the way to saving even more people. I love Mark Waid, I've enjoyed so many of his comic stories over the years and he's a huge Superman fan... and he's also very clear on what and who Superman is. He quotes one of his colleagues in that 'Superman never does one thing when he can do two.'

 

Another quote I love 'Superman isn't supposed to be like us. We're supposed to want to be like him.'

 

And there's really nothing wrong with having a hero that may be beyond us... but still be worth striving for all the same.

 

Batman is dark and I get that. But he also has ideals. The thing is Snyder has just made Batman and Superman to be two different kinds of Batman and what's the point in that? Marvel has Steve and Tony about to throw down and the reasons for it are varied in action, ideals and just how different they are as people and heroes. That's what was required for Batman and Superman to go up against each other.

 

I just don't think we need a dark and gritty Superman. That's what Batman is for. And Batman is also plenty suspicious of Superman... he's already there in distrusting someone so seemingly powerful and perfect. The point is to bring Bruce around to believing that Clark is actually a guy who wants to help but does not want to be viewed as a god. And even if Bruce is always prepared to take him down if that's what it comes to (he's still Batman after all) the real tension in Superman is how to help his adoptive planet with these powers he has but not be considered above or beyond them. 

 

I don't understand what's so damn hard about it.

[Perfect Xero]

This movie had the best, most layered interpretation of Lex Luthor that I've ever seen. Granted, it was a bit weird that this version of Lex dressed up like a Bat-Man, hung out with his butler, and was a martial arts expert, but they really nailed his jealousy and resentment of Superman as well as his racism and xenophobia driving him over the edge. And I guess the dark Bat outfit transfers to the screen better than his traditional purple and green theme.

 

The truce between him and Supes at the end was a little odd, but it's believable from some versions of Lex when faced with an even bigger threat. Obviously we can't trust that this turn will stay in place in future movies, as he's clearly deranged, but it creates some interesting drama as they face Darkseid.

 

Eisenberg's portrayal of the Ultra-Humanite was also different from cannon, but he's a relatively unknown character (and a nice touch to include the first Super Villain Superman faced in the comics) so they had more freedom to bring a new spin having him create a separate ape like creature to fight Superman rather than transferring his brain to the creature was a weird choice, but it keeps the actor around in future movies, I guess.

[Raja]

I feel alone in absolutely hating Wonder Woman's theme music. Every time it started (which was literally every time her face was onscreen) I found it so incredibly jarring. The drums were very cool but everything else I found to be a complete mess. Or miss. Miss mess.

t.

Anytime I hear Wonder and Woman together the 70's TV theme gets stuck in my mind

[Racj82]

I feel alone in absolutely hating Wonder Woman's theme music. Every time it started (which was literally every time her face was onscreen) I found it so incredibly jarring. The drums were very cool but everything else I found to be a complete mess. Or miss. Miss mess.

DC seems afraid to make a movie with a kind-hearted lead. Like Superman can't just be purely good, because that's "boring". No, he has to be stoic all the time. It's either/or with them and that's just so wrongheaded. The most appealing scenes in this movie were the ones where Clark acted like a regular man, when he got into the tub with Lois and when he argued with Perry about doing the Batman story. He came across like a person with some depth. We needed more of that.

No I've already voiced my displeasure with the wonder woman theme here. It was literally giving me a headache. It also came off as trying really hard to make a character awesome. Kind of like how The green/white ranger had his own theme for reasons unknown in the power rangers. Like we get it. The characters awesome. Turn it down a notch.

[JessePinkman]

The we hate movies podcast ripping on the movie is leaving me in tears. Them riffing on Holly Hunters accent in this movie is a killer.       

               

No I've already voiced my displeasure with the wonder woman theme here. It was literally giving me a headache. It also came off as trying really hard to make a character awesome. Kind of like how The green/white ranger had his own theme for reasons unknown in the power rangers. Like we get it. The characters awesome. Turn it down a notch.

 

I'm listening to the WHM podcast right now and their riffs on her theme are killing me. Bill and Ted electric guitar indeed.

 

More questions: Alfred was able to find Martha (at that same pier in Gotham it looked like) but Superman in all his infinite power wasn't? He's able to hear Lois burp in Africa but he's isn't able to hone in on his own mother in the next town over?

[MarkHB]

Anytime I hear Wonder and Woman together the 70's TV theme gets stuck in my mind

 

While I liked the music they used for her in this film, I'm really hoping that an updated / rerecorded version of the 70's song plays over the credits of her own.  If they really want to emphasize the "universal sisterhood" aspect, get Taylor Swift and Katy Perry to do it together.

[Bruinsfan]

A lot of variations on anger and not much else.

Compassionate concern, enthusiasm, joy, warm fondness, worry, and sad resignation are just variations of anger? Well, I guess I see the root cause of our differing opinions about Cavill's performance...

 

Anytime I hear Wonder and Woman together the 70's TV theme gets stuck in my mind

You say that like it's a bad thing!

 

One thing I'm wondering—Lex Luthor has apparently been held responsible for blowing up the US. Capitol Building while at least one sitting Senator was present. So, that's not just murder and terrorism, that's Treason. I would assume that involves a level of judicial scrutiny that would prevent him from weaseling his way out of conviction on technicalities or bribing a judge for an acquittal.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Bruinsfan

[Lantern7]

Anytime I hear Wonder and Woman together the 70's TV theme gets stuck in my mind

When Wonder Woman appeared on Batman: The Brave And The Bold, they'd break out that music for her.

[SeanC]

One thing I'm wondering—Lex Luthor has apparently been held responsible for blowing up the US. Capitol Building while at least one sitting Senator was present. So, that's not just murder and terrorism, that's Treason. I would assume that involves a level of judicial scrutiny that would prevent him from weaseling his way out of conviction on technicalities or bribing a judge for an acquittal.

Treason requires two witnesses to the act for conviction, which I don't think there would be in this case.

[Demented Daisy]

When Wonder Woman appeared on Batman: The Brave And The Bold, they'd break out that music for her.

 

 

And when she flies in the Lego Batman games -- starting with the third.

[Bruinsfan]

Treason requires two witnesses to the act for conviction, which I don't think there would be in this case.

Surely Lex didn't build the wheelchair bomb without help and lug it up the stairs to Wallace Keefe's apartment by himself?

[Racj82]

Compassionate concern, enthusiasm, joy, warm fondness, worry, and sad resignation are just variations of anger? Well, I guess I see the root cause of our differing opinions about Cavill's performance...

You say that like it's a bad thing!

One thing I'm wondering—Lex Luthor has apparently been held responsible for blowing up the US. Capitol Building while at least one sitting Senator was present. So, that's not just murder and terrorism, that's Treason. I would assume that involves a level of judicial scrutiny that would prevent him from weaseling his way out of conviction on technicalities or bribing a judge for an acquittal.

You are grabbing on to a lot of things involving Cavill that isn't really there, IMO. I don't hate Cavill. The character is written pretty blankly so there isn't much for him to do. But, he also isn't going through this cavalcade of emotions. He not even asked to changed much. I get the emotions he trying to convey but most competent actors can do that. He's not elevating the material or breaking new ground.

[DollEyes]

My verdict: better than I expected. BvS wasn't The Dark Knight or Batman Returns , but it wasn't Batman & Robin, either.  Regarding Ben Affleck's version of Bruce Wayne/Batman, he wasn't as good as Michael Keaton or Christian Bale, but he's better than Val Kilmer & George Clooney. As for Henry Cavill, IMO he's the best big-screen Superman since Christopher Reeve, Zach Snyder's attempts to ruin the character be damned. Despite Snyder's best (worst?) efforts, Cavill captures the physicality, the vulnerability and above all, the humanity of both Clark & Superman. However, the anti-Supe witchhunt pissed me off. The tragedies of Metropolis and Africa were horrific, to say the least, but I blame the bad guys, not the good ones. It's like all the good things that Superhas done never happened and all the lives that Superman has saved don't count. For one thing, if General Zod  wasn't a sociopathic, genocidal maniac with a vendetta against Superman and his family, he wouldn't have started that shit in the first place. That goes double for Lex Luthor, who started all the other shit in Metropolis, Africa and Gotham City, also because he's pissed at Supes for some stupid reason, which I didn't give any semblance of a fuck about, especially when Lex started monologuing ala Syndrome in The Incredibles, who was another petulant super-villain with daddy issues who saw himself as much more of a victim than he actually was.

 

  Amy Adam's Lois Lane was OK-just OK. She's a great actress, but here she made Lois Lane into the one thing that she shouldn't be-boring. She gave a few plot-driven platitudes worthy of Smallville's Jonathan Kent, but most of the time she was in typical damsel-in-distress mode. Lois retrieving the kryptonite spear was kind of cool, but I was more bored than impressed.

 

  The Doomsday stuff was at least 15 minutes too long. After 10 minutes, I expected Doomsday to die of old age.

 

 Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman was the best thing about this movie. From the moment she and her shield saved Batman and Superman from Doomsday, Wonder Woman was a force to be reckoned with, to put it mildly. She not only saved the movie, she stole it.

[Kromm]

However, the anti-Supe witchhunt pissed me off. The tragedies of Metropolis and Africa were horrific, to say the least, but I blame the bad guys, not the good ones. It's like all the good things that Superhas done never happened and all the lives that Superman has saved don't count. For one thing, if General Zod  wasn't a sociopathic, genocidal maniac with a vendetta against Superman and his family, he wouldn't have started that shit in the first place. That goes double for Lex Luthor, who started all the other shit in Metropolis, Africa and Gotham City, also because he's pissed at Supes for some stupid reason, which I didn't give any semblance of a fuck about, especially when Lex started monologuing ala Syndrome in The Incredibles, who was another petulant super-villain with daddy issues who saw himself as much more of a victim than he actually was.

Here's the thing for me. I don't want to have to work to justify how and why things happen in a good movie--they should just make sense out of the box. Oh sure you want wank tons of "how did they do that" technical stuff ((how was that character in two places at once, how did that ridiculous thing that defies physics work, etc.)--in fact I think we count on doing that in movies these days--but you should never have to wank character motivations.

 

This, more why Snyder is serving up a shit sandwich and calling it a movie than anything else. Oh, we can go on about how belabored the editing is, how little sense big portions of the plot make, but people acting in ways that we have to construct head-canon to explain is the ultimate problem.

[Kromm]

[Sandman]

The headline was something like "Night of Terror, Morning of Grief."

 

Yes: the error was one of taste, rather than spelling.

[JustaPerson]

Regarding the Clark discussion:

 

 

Made before the movie came out, but still interesting.

Edited April 1, 2016 by JustaPerson

[Lantern7]

Have to share . . . Penny Arcade takes on BvS.

[Bruinsfan]

Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman was the best thing about this movie. From the moment she and her shield saved Batman and Superman from Doomsday, Wonder Woman was a force to be reckoned with, to put it mildly. She not only saved the movie, she stole it.

That iconic crossed-bracers rescue reveal made me cheer and applaud in the theater. I also think Diana could have potentially won the final fight by herself if the movie weren't dead set on having Superman martyr himself administering the coup de grâce—she demonstrated that she could both take Doomsday's blows without going down for the count and deal him serious injuries with her sword—there had to be some limit to how much tissue damage he could suffer and still recover from.

 

Regarding the Clark discussion:

But Bill/Tarantino were full of shit. I grew up on reruns of the 50s Adventures of Superman and the comics in the 70s before the Donner movies came out. In both, Clark was portrayed as smart, capable, and confident. The comics did give more weight to nature and his Kryptonian heritage than the modern post-Crisis interpretation does, but he always had great respect and love for normal people. He wouldn't have devoted half his waking hours to a weak, bumbling critique of humanity.

[darkestboy]

I caught the movie in the middle of the afternoon and while it was far from perfect, I actually enjoyed it more than Man Of Steel if not as much as any of the Dark Knight trilogy movies. It had some of the same problems as MOS, including Snyder's appetite for wanton city wide destruction.

 

Affleck is a terrific Batman. I genuinely bought him in the role and thought he was also excellent as Bruce Wayne as well. I really cannot wait to see more of his Batman in the Justice League movies and hopefully his own solo Batman movie.

 

Henry Cavill did better this time as Superman and so did Amy Adams as Lois Lane and yes, a certain moment towards the end of this movie got me welling up big time, even though I knew it was coming too.

 

Gal Gadot is a true find as Wonder Woman. I wish she had more in the movie but we've got her movie and Justice League to look forward to and she shone in every scene she was in this movie.

 

Doomsday looked rubbish but had the desired effect and Jesse Eisenberg certainly made Lex into a vile little cretin throughout the whole thing as well.

 

Good supporting cast, especially Diane Lane as Martha and Jeremy Irons as Alfred and the cameos were well done too. Dream sequences and stuff a little too distracting though, 7/10

Edited April 2, 2016 by darkestboy

[bettername2come]

The Flash dream sequence confused me - I thought it was real time travel and then he woke up like all the other dream sequences.

 

I really wish we could've skipped straight to the last hour, where there was actual action and superhero teamwork. They haven't written enough about Clark and his relationship with Lois, which is a shame because I do think Amy Adams and Henry Cavill are well cast in the roles and have good chemistry. Lois knowing Clark's identity is one of the few changes from canon that I like.

 

Gal Gadot is my Wonder Woman. I liked the theme song, although it was a little overpowering in the movie.My favorite part of the whole film - "I've killed things from other worlds before." "Is she with you?" "I thought she was with you." (Although, seriously, Bruce, you knew she was with you, you've been chatting online.)

[lion10]

So, Zack Snyder needs to be booted from the DCEU if WB wants to save the franchise.  Batman v Superman looks to be under-performing at the box office.  I'm so fucking mad.  I gave Snyder the benefit of a doubt after the "mehness" of Man of Steel, but directing a live-action movie where Batman and Superman meet for the first time, fight against each other, and then both team up with Wonder Woman to fight a villain should've been a fucking slam dunk.  This movie should be PRINTING MONEY.  

[Spartan Girl]

Just got back from it. You know one thing that could have redeemed this movie is that if Bats, Supes, and Wonder Woman all teamed up to beat the living shit out of Lex Luthor, because my God, Jesse Eisenberg was SO ANNOYING. They basically took Gene Hackman and gave him the worst case of ADD ever.

Alfred sadly had the only good lines in the movie, although I though Martha's reaction to Batman was pretty funny.

Other than the awesomeness that was Wonder Woman, the brief JL cameos (Aquaman, Flash, and Cyborg), and the little Easter Egg of Joker's message on the old bat suit, this movie was a mess. Too many weird ass dream sequences and the first two hours were too long. And we only got one shirtless scene of Henry Cavill, delicious though it was.

I will admit I was semi impressed by Affleck's shirtless sequences, even though I'm not a fan.

And I am SO BEYOND OVER everyone not trusting Superman. All he ever did was try to save people and people just focus on the collateral damage that wasn't his fault as much as Zod's? Would have loved a sequence of all the political commentator's eating crow after Superman sacrificed himself.

I wish we would have gotten a JL movie instead.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Spartan Girl

[Kromm]

I wish we would have gotten a JL movie instead.

Sadly we're getting two of them instead. Done by you know who (hint: it rhymes with "spider").

[Spartan Girl]

Sadly we're getting two of them instead. Done by you know who (hint: it rhymes with "spider").

To quote Batfleck, "Oh shit."

[lion10]

Regarding the Clark discussion:

 

I don't agree with what Max Landis has to say for Spiderman and Batman, but I do think he nails what's so potentially cool about Superman/Clark and what I feel like Zack Snyder didn't quite portray.  

 

https://youtu.be/PL4vTV9SNxw?t=100

 

The pertinent parts in the video are from 1:40 to 6:00, though the entire video is worth a watch as is another video from Max Landis named "Regarding Clark" where he goes in depth into what he likes about Clark's character and also critiques Man of Steel.  The point of both videos being that part of the charm of Superman is that he's just a guy from Kansas trying to do the right thing not out of guilt or trauma, but because it's the right thing to do.

Sadly we're getting two of them instead. Done by you know who (hint: it rhymes with "spider").

 

Only the first one is directed by Zack Snyder.  Then hopefully he gets the boot.  Fans have given him chance after chance to get it right.  His most highly revied superhero movie was Watchmen with a 65% on RT that underpeformed at the box office.  What was WB thinking when they hired him?

[Kromm]

Only the first one is directed by Zack Snyder.  Then hopefully he gets the boot.  Fans have given him chance after chance to get it right.  His most highly revied superhero movie was Watchmen with a 65% on RT that underpeformed at the box office.  What was WB thinking when they hired him?

It was my understanding that the two movies are being written and produced as a single two-part story. Has that changed? In other words, while it's possible they may spell Snyder with a different director for the second movie (nobody's been announced I think--so this is all speculation even at best), the intent of doing that certainly (at least originally) wasn't to dissociate from him. He's still going to be a co-creator/co-writer--probably with a "story by" credit (presumably along with Goyer--although again, nothing was ever officially announced, I guess), and a producer. 

 

Using online sources is probably pretty useless with this one though. Even the one we know for SURE he's doing, Justice League Part I, has a squirrelly IMDB entry, where Zach Snyder isn't even listed as a producer, but his wife Deborah Snyder is. But then Zach's name is there as either a producer, or in some cases a simple Exec producer, on The Flash, Aquaman, and even Wonder Woman (thankfully he's just an Exec Prod on that one, which means maybe his involvement is minimal). 

 

I guess the point is that he's dug in deep for the whole cycle of movies. Even if he's just a consultant on most of those solo character movies, he's seemingly the lynchpin for coordinating the Team movies--which indeed if they're telling a single story are going to be his baby.

 

Then again Goyer probably needs a good part of the blame for all of this shit too. It wasn't Christopher Nolan (his theoretical co-writer on Man of Steel) who fucked THAT one up.  Goyer's name doesn't appear to be on the upcoming movies, then again as I said, this online documentation seems to be pretty questionable.

 

Chris Terrio (of Argo fame) seems to be a new common link. Not involved with MoS, he was Goyer's co-writer on BvS and has his name attached to both Justice League movies (in theory) at this point. Maybe the less shitty parts of BvS were his work, so we can hope, I suppose that if that's the case he gets more influence. Or not. Isn't Argo kind of boring and drawn out too?

Edited April 3, 2016 by Kromm

[benteen]

I still think the first full-fledge Justice League movie should be one film instead of two.   You save a two-parter for the next one, if you're actually successful.

[Spartan Girl]

Maybe it would be making more money if there was an extended scene of Henry Cavill making breakfast with his shirt off. Just sayin'!

(Seriously, Superman was the best boyfriend ever in this movie)

[Kromm]

I still think the first full-fledge Justice League movie should be one film instead of two.   You save a two-parter for the next one, if you're actually successful.

This is from the director though who's current film clocks in at 151 minutes. In other words, almost two movies worth by some measures. And it's almost incoherent. Imagine how much worse it would be if he has to deal with a cast of 7 heroes inside one film instead of 2 and a half heroes.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Kromm

[Sandman]

But Bill/Tarantino were full of shit. I grew up on reruns of the 50s Adventures of Superman and the comics in the 70s before the Donner movies came out. In both, Clark was portrayed as smart, capable, and confident. The comics did give more weight to nature and his Kryptonian heritage than the modern post-Crisis interpretation does, but he always had great respect and love for normal people. He wouldn't have devoted half his waking hours to a weak, bumbling critique of humanity.

 

Nor would he dedicate himself to saving the world if he held himself above humanity. No, there's just no way around it: Tarantino has always been completely full of shit, and always will be.

 

What Snyder and Goyer don't seem to get is that "... dedicated to defending a world that hates and fears him" was never Superman's gig. That's an X-Men thing (and maybe a Spiderman thing, to some extent).

 

ETA: For whatever it's worth, I didn't find Argo drawn-out or overly long (its spiritual sibling, Zero Dreck Thunky, I did find really draggy and long-winded. And also stupid, but that's a screechy rant for another thread). I thought that Argo was wrong on the facts, probably indefensibly so, but its chase aspect was handled very effectively; considering that I knew how the story would end, it works very well as a thriller. It's a marvel (if you'll pardon the expression) of construction compared to this film.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Sandman

[Dandesun]

What Snyder and Goyer don't seem to get is that "...dedicated to defending a world that hates and fears him" was never Superman's gig. That's an X-Men thing (and maybe a Spiderman thing, to some extent).

 

 

That is specifically an X-Men thing. Spider-Man isn't hated and feared by the people he's trying to protect... it's only J. Jonah Jameson that hates him. The X-Men have always been the ones about the hate, the fear and the prejudice far more than anyone else. Other super groups in Marvel don't have to deal with that. Sometimes public opinion of them will shift but, ultimately, the Fantastic Four and the Avengers are beloved by the communities they're serving. 

 

Superman is as much a part of our world as he is separated from it. He was raised by humans, he was surrounded by humans, he loves a human woman (despite the several attempts to insist that Superman and Wonder Woman are some kind of OTP or whatever.) Going back to All-Star Superman... the thing he seems to say in every single issue of that series: There's always a way.

 

THAT is who Superman is.

 

Leave the prejudicial angst to the X-Men. They're made for that. Superman is not that way.

 

You know, Lego Superheroes did 'Batman Be-Leaguered' which is a 30 minute short about the rest of the Justice League trying to get Batman to join... despite the fact that he's not a joiner (and says so... a LOT) but when Supes and Bats meet, Batman is automatically suspicious. "The alien." And then there's this whole, "I knew the most powerful man in the world would someday find his way to Gotham. And since power corrupts and you're all powerful..."

 

And Superman laughs jovially and goes 'No! I just wanted to introduce myself and invite you to join our Justice League. A bunch of us superheroes have gotten together, you know, Flash, Wonder Woman..."

 

And Batman just scoffs. "I'm not interested in your Super Club! And I can handle things here ALONE!"

 

Look the thing is, the Lego stuff gets it right. Sure, it's also full of lampshade hanging but I come out of all of those grinning and nodding my head because as much fun as they poke at the whole thing (it's Lego, come on, it's supposed to be fun) it's very obviously made with love and knows who the characters are!!

[JessePinkman]

BvS drops 69% in its second frame

 

Warner Bros.’ Batman V Superman: Dawn Of Justice is finishing lower than its $52.4M weekend estimate yesterday, now at $51.8M. That 69% drop ties with Fox’s X-Men Origins: Wolverine as one of the steepest second-weekend drops for a superhero film ever. BvS weathered a post-Easter frame in which fans failed to return in droves. And there was nothing holding them back since the other majors didn’t trot out new wide entries.

 

 

 

Somebody's getting fired #beyoncegif

 

This is a real shame actually because like lion10 said this movie should be printing money. The three most iconic superheroes appear on screen together for the first time ever and they can't secure repeat business or good word of mouth? 

[BatmanBeatles]

 

Nor would he dedicate himself to saving the world if he held himself above humanity.

Snyder seems to get Supes mixed up with Dr. Manhattan.

[Sandman]

Or Klaatu.

[blackwing]

I guess I was entertained by this movie.  I loathe Ben Affleck, and I was surprised at how much I liked him here.  I thought he did a good Batman.  I've liked Henry Cavill ever since "The Tudors" and I liked him here.

 

So much about this movie made absolutely no sense.  But I want to pick on three items in particular:

 

1.  When Superman and Batman first fought and Bats show up in this superstrong hydraulic armour... after Supes recovers a little from the Kryptonite, and Bats says "oh shit"..... why didn't Superman immediately strip the hydraulic armour off of Batman?  It was really the only thing making the fight remotely even.  There's no way Batman would have been able to toss a 220 pound depowered Superman like that without the armour.

 

2.  When Martha Kent was being held by Eurotrash, why didn't she just whisper "Clark".  Superman can hear Lois Lane from anywhere in the world and immediately rush to her aid.  He can hear underwater pounding on a stone column and know that Lois is in trouble.  You would think his bond with his mother is equally as strong, if not stronger.  He should be able to detect whether she's in trouble or where she is.

 

3.  I realise she is getting her own movie, but shouldn't there at least have been some backstory on Wonder Woman?  You would think that Batman or Superman would at least have asked "what can you do?  You appear to be strong and can fly, is that sword magic?"  And then all of a sudden, just as I was wondering what happened to her magic lasso, there it was, with no preamble or explanation.

[jellysalmon]

What frustrates me most about podcasts (PCHH, Grantland, etc) and reviewers always see the super hero fight scenes all the same CGI nonsense. I mean, they're comic book movies, you should expect some action. I don't go into romantic comedies and groan whenever there is a misunderstanding. Oh wait yes I do. So maybe a poor example, but still. I look forward to the action sequences, and think that when they're done well they should be applauded and critiqued when done poorly. Not just treat them as the same nonsense.

 

1. Batman chasing the kryptonite in the batmobile: Poor. It was hard to follow, poorly executed on Batman's part (collateral damage all over the place, did he not see the start of this movie?), and had no real surprises. Bad guys shoot at Batman=>Batman shoots at them back.  The one sort of spectacular thing (batman ramming the car into the truck), was actually a terrible idea since he almost destroyed the tracking device he placed on it minutes before. D-

2. Batman vs Dream Goons: I had a hard time judging this one because the scene was so confusing and misplaced that my mind was trying to figure out what the hell was going on. I didn't really care about Superman killing Zod in MoS that much, but Batman shooting people with guns feels so wrong. D

3. Batman vs. Superman: This had some nice moments. I especailly liked Batman hitting him with each hit becoming less effective. There should have been more damage shown on Superman. Some blood, a bruise, frazzled hair...something! The ending was nonsense but overall it was decent. B

4. Batman vs. Goons: This had batman at his best. Using the element of surprise, gadgeting appropriately and just being an overall badass. I didn't like how he let the guy shoot him point blank in the back of the head though. A-

5. Wonder Woman + Superman + Batman vs Doomsday: As someone who really enjoyed the Smallville fight scene in the middle of MoS and didn't hate the Metropolis fight scene at the end of MoS, this was a mixed bag. I am definitely wowed by some of the deceptions of super speed and strength and this definitely delivered on those. It's something not really present in any other movie, not even the MCU.  I appreciated that there was less punching through buildings and more actual fighting.  Wonder Woman in particular shined by trying to do something other than punching. Unfortunately the repeated Doomsday energy blasts and the laser eyes vs laser eyes battle were momentum killing. Energy blast vs energy blasts are never interesting. Not in X-Men 3, not in Dragonball Z and not here. They sort of flubbed the ending too. There was no reason for Superman to be the one to deliver the spear with Wonder Woman still standing. IMO they should have had Superman as the last hero standing and then he makes the decision to sacrifice himself to beat doomsday. B-