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Crisis On Infinite Earths 2019: Who Lives, Who Dies, Who Tells Their Story

scarynikki12

By scarynikki12
in Legends Of Tomorrow

MarkHB
Message added by MarkHB

This thread is specifically for discussion of Elseworlds, Crisis on Infinite Earths, and speculation and spoilers directly pertaining to them.  Full rules for the thread are here; please read them.  Off-topic posts may be removed.

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Oreo2234

Oreo2234

(edited)

They seem to be making more of these types of claims than usual. I don't know if they really have real source (or think they do) or their just milking the crisis for all the clickbait its worth. I did here the rumors about Carlos and Danielle possibly leaving the Flash before they reported it so I think its possible some of these claims are true (even if its just repeating what's floating around the internet). 

Edited by Oreo2234
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BkWurm1
BkWurm1

Aww crap. I was hoping he'd be bored and have moved away from the crossover by next year.  I really don't like the narrow focus on just the leads.  I was willing to put up with it this year but now I'

Starfish35
Starfish35

I’m dying. 🤣 From Tumblr:

Mellowyellow
Mellowyellow

Ahh good old Stephen and his NOPE face reserved for everyone who isn't EBR. At least he doesn't look like he wants to break Iris's arm there! We had a temp LI in S5 and there was a scene where sh

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Proteus

Proteus

(edited)
3 hours ago, Oreo2234 said:

They seem to be making more of these types of claims than usual. I don't know if they really have real source (or think they do) or their just milking the crisis for all the clickbait its worth. I did here the rumors about Carlos and Danielle possibly leaving the Flash before they reported it so I think its possible some of these claims are true (even if its just repeating what's floating around the internet). 

I never heard a thing about Danielle until they made up their rumor. Not sure where you could have heard that other than the normal random hopes by people who dislike her. I don't believe a thing that sites says. According to them everyone is leaving Flash & they have tons of info years in advance. Please.

Edited by Proteus
BaggythePanther

BaggythePanther

9 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Is it though? Because i am pretty sure SA will be in all 10 episodes. And Arrow wont end on the crossover.

This year the crossover was episode 9. So if you kill Oliver off in episode 9, you can use episode 10 as the series finale to wrap everything up.

My only question is, when will Supergirl have its 100th episode? I don’t know how many episodes they had in season one and they only have 22 episodes instead of the usual 23 this year. So I don’t think it’s going to be the 8th episode next year (like it was for Arrow and The Flash).

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Velocity23

Velocity23

5 minutes ago, Trini said:

I'm not so sure about that.

They moved the crossover episode last time, it's possible they do it again. Either way, it seems like Oliver has a greater chance of dying with Arrow ending.

And they could move it to the premiere. To give Batwoman a boost and also united all the earths. Honestly the fact Arrow is ending gives it a greater chance of Oliver surviving imo.

Oreo2234

Oreo2234

(edited)
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I don't see Supergirl ending with the crossover. It would be an uncharacteristically grim ending for the show to end with Kara's death (or something similarly tragic) and Supergirl is the arrowverse show that makes the least references to the crossover and other shows. I don't see the showrunners wanting its conclusion to be so tied into the crossover even if it is ending after next season. 

Edited by Oreo2234
Velocity23

Velocity23

1 minute ago, Starfish35 said:

We don’t know that Batwoman is starting in the fall though.  The last two shows started at midseason, and in fact this makes it even more likely that Batwoman would start then, replacing Arrow.

I doubt it. Batwoman will get the fall line up for sure. 

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MarkHB

MarkHB

The Flash and Supergirl are each performing well enough to keep around, so I could never see the CW's Crisis killing either off.

In the original story, the "final blow" was struck by the character that had to do it: Kal-L, the original Golden Age Superman of Earth-2, aka the first hero of them all.  But he's nowhere to be found in the CWverse, and their Superman is a minor player.  So, in the CWverse, who's the granddaddy who started it all?

Oliver.

So I predict that Oliver will be the one who strikes the final blow at the Big Bad (I'm still aggravated 30+ years later that the best name DC could come up with was "The Anti-Monitor") and he will die as a result.  And I won't be a bit surprised if the final episode of Arrow Season 8 is titled, "Funeral for a Friend."

23 minutes ago, Oreo2234 said:

Some guy on twitter named Daniel Richtman claims he heard another show will finish after the crossover and his follow up tweet hints at Supergirl. I don't know if he is reliable or not. 

He was good in the past, primarily re: movies, but spottier lately.

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scarynikki12

scarynikki12

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I can see the final blow going down like that (or we learn that the real reason DC gave permission for Superman is so he can deliver the final blow like the comic but I don’t think they got the ok to do Crisis that early). I just don’t think Oliver will stay dead. 

I was thinking about the story logistics for Crisis last night and I’ve decided that I want the Legends (well, Sara, Ray, and Mick since they were there) to be the ones to come up with the plan. They defeated Savage using three points in time so they’re in the best position to make the suggestion since they know it can work. 

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Oreo2234

Oreo2234

Quote

He was good in the past, primarily re: movies, but spottier lately

So there's some possibility he's right? I hope not. For multiple reasons Supergirl ending right after the crossover would not be right for the show in the same way that it could be for Arrow.

Though if they were planning to replace it with Superman mid-season wouldn't we have heard something official now regarding the development of a Superman show?

Trini

Trini

On 12/12/2018 at 2:12 PM, Trini said:

2024 has always been the date for Crisis on The Flash; did they really move it up earlier just because Arrow is getting cancelled?

Just wanna put that out there to see whether it turns out to be true.

The thing is, I don't think they really needed to change the date to have the characters/actors from the greater Berlanti-verse involved, even if the other shows are off the air. But I guess "better safe than sorry" -- even though it messes up The Flash's planned arcs.

Yeah, now it's looking like this was one of the main factors.

Trini

Trini

(edited)
1 hour ago, Oreo2234 said:

So there's some possibility he's right? I hope not. For multiple reasons Supergirl ending right after the crossover would not be right for the show in the same way that it could be for Arrow.

Though if they were planning to replace it with Superman mid-season wouldn't we have heard something official now regarding the development of a Superman show?

CW's not cancelling Supergirl for a Superman show. If any other DC show is in danger - which I doubt - it's most likely Legends. (Or Black Lightning, but not for anything related to Crisis, etc.)

Edited by Trini
Starfish35

Starfish35

17 minutes ago, Trini said:

CW's not cancelling Supergirl for a Superman show. If any other DC show is in danger - which I doubt - it's most likely Legends. (Or Black Lightning, but not for anything related to Crisis, etc.)

I don’t know what to think at the moment.  The Arrow announcement has rattled me a bit.  I know part of that was because Amell wants to be done, but still. I did not see that coming.

Flash will go on as long as they can get Grant Gustin to stick around for it.  And even though it’s currently the lowest rated of the five DC shows, I don’t see Black Lightning going anywhere for a couple more seasons at least.  But I could see scenarios where either Supergirl and/or Legends wrapped up next year.  For example, what if Melissa Benoist wants out?  I know she’s engaged to Chris Wood now, and I know they wrote around her Broadway commitment at the first of the season.  Maybe it’s less about wanting to replace the show than about their star getting restless. /total speculation.  

I’m just throwing out thoughts.  Not insisting on anything.  

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shantown

shantown

1 hour ago, Trini said:

2024 has always been the date for Crisis on The Flash; did they really move it up earlier just because Arrow is getting cancelled?

In my opinion, there was no way Flash was going to run for 10+ years to make that line up correctly anyway. And I think at the point when the previous crossover was filmed and the COIE was announced, they didn't know Arrow was going to be cancelled at that time anyway. I'm not even sure of the timing of it being decided Stephen Amell would only renegotiate for 10eps with it being decided the next crossover would be COIE. It would be nice of them to do the huge "final" crossover to coincide with the end of Arrow if the showrunners wanted that, but I don't think that's what happened. Just a coincidence.

Trini

Trini

(edited)
4 hours ago, shantown said:

In my opinion, there was no way Flash was going to run for 10+ years to make that line up correctly anyway.

It doesn't have to air 10 seasons to do that anyway, since time travel is part of the show. But I get your point.
 

4 hours ago, shantown said:

And I think at the point when the previous crossover was filmed and the COIE was announced, they didn't know Arrow was going to be cancelled at that time anyway.

Maybe; but they knew Amell didn't want to go past Season 7, at least. But I'm still thinking they did know that the show might not be around much longer, and they wanted Arrow to be a part of that event, so they moved it up.

Edited by Trini
Starfish35

Starfish35

It sounded to me like they knew he was leaving now; what they didn’t know was whether they were going to try to continue the show without him. That’s apparently the decision that was just made.  So yeah, I could believe that they moved COIE up in order to include him/write him out.

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Starry

Starry

I don't believe it's a coincidence that Crisis lines up with Arrows ending. The announcement didn't come as a surprise to me. In fact, I called it as soon as it was reported they had moved up Crisis to 2019.

According to SA he approached Berlanti to tell him he wanted out towards the end of s6. They announced Batwoman as a part of the crossover at the CW Upfronts in May. Guggenheim also said that they had planned Elseworlds with the next crossover in mind, which makes sense because of the pact Oliver did with the Monitor. Too many things happened to fall into place for it to be coincidental.

Even though Flash may end before s10 they could have still kept Crisis for its final season. It was the natural thing to do since it was teased on that show.

Between Supergirl and Legends I think the latter is more at risk of cancellation. I personally don't believe the rumors about the Superman show ( or about all those Flash actors leaving after s5 ). This version of Superman is already too established as a hero, a reporter and a man. Are they going to start the show with his wedding to Lois? Where would they go from there?

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Maverick

Maverick

 I don't read the comics, but in addition to merging all the Earths didn't Crisis also wipe out all of the history with every hero and villain given altered or outright new origin stories?   If that's the case, every show could be rebooted to some extent.   They can bring back dead characters, have them at different points in their lives (imagine young Stein as part of Firestorm on Legends) or move characters between shows.  If the only thing that happens from Crisis is Oliver dies, Arrow ends and National City is now on Earth-1 then the whole thing is much ado about nothing.   It wouldn't be the first time they fizzled an epic story (::cough:: Flashpoint), but given all the setup for this one it will be extra disappointing.  

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Trini

Trini

1 hour ago, Maverick said:

If the only thing that happens from Crisis is Oliver dies, Arrow ends and National City is now on Earth-1 then the whole thing is much ado about nothing.   It wouldn't be the first time they fizzled an epic story (::cough:: Flashpoint), but given all the setup for this one it will be extra disappointing.  

🎶Lower your expectations🎶

It's the best way to approach these things.

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scarynikki12

scarynikki12

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2 hours ago, Maverick said:

in addition to merging all the Earths didn't Crisis also wipe out all of the history with every hero and villain given altered or outright new origin stories?

Some get merged, some get erased entirely, and some just go forward having been changed from that point but their history remains the same.  It just depends.  I can see some characters getting merged (Wells is my top pick for this one), only minor characters erased (too risky to piss off viewers by erasing major characters), while the third option is the most likely for the mains going forward.

Proteus

Proteus

3 hours ago, benteen said:

I think Arrow is past due to finish up.  I checked out last season though I'll definitely be around for the end.  I really hope that Legends of Tomorrow gets another season after this but after Arrow's cancelation, I'm not expecting that.

But Arrow wasn't canceled. Stephen Amell decided to move on. There's a big difference. If SA wanted to keep going, Arrow wouldn't be ending. I don't see why SA wanting to move on with his life means Legends will end next.

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MarkHB

MarkHB

19 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

Some get merged, some get erased entirely, and some just go forward having been changed from that point but their history remains the same.

You left out "some become an impenetrable mess," which definitely happened back then* and also seems to be right in the CW's wheelhouse.

The problem with a CW Superman show is that we already had a CW Superman show... It was called "Lois and Clark." 

The CW doesn't have the extensive history with overlapping backstories that DC did, so I don't see CoIE having the same sort of ramifications that the original did. I think it's all going to be about the event and the action itself, and hopefully some nice fan service moments mixed in.

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RedVitC

RedVitC

(edited)
On 3/2/2019 at 7:17 AM, BaggythePanther said:

This makes the most sense. But I’m just really curious how they’re going to do Crisis without killing off the protagonists of two shows. Someone has to die, right?

Yeah, Mark Pedowitz did say characters would die. I still don't think it's Oliver (though them announcing the shortened last season did up the chances). Maybe if he sacrifices himself it will be people thinking he's dead but he's alive somewhere.

I'm not sure about the other shows. Like I said, Oliver made the deal to save Barry and Kara in 2018 not 2019, so Barry and Kara are by no means safe in the next crossover (and as far as we know as of right now even with the deal made Barry still disappears in 2024 in the future), but yeah unless they're planning a time jump I'm not sure how they could actually have Barry disappear for 25 or more years and still continue the show. I could maybe see them having Barry disappear for a shorter amount, say 5 years, but they'd have to do a time jump after the crossover to the year Barry comes back.

I'm not sure if that would be something they'd be willing to do, but if there ever was a time they could do a time jump for all the shows it would be around crisis on infinite earths. I suppose it would be funny if Barry returned in 2024 rather than disappeared and it would give all of the shows new material to mine. I think batwoman is a mid-season show (maybe? for some reason that's what I've been thinking but I don't know if it's confirmed) so they could just start the show in the year of the time jump.

Edited by RedVitC
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CabotCove

CabotCove

Quote

We don’t know that Batwoman is starting in the fall though.

But surely she will have to be involved in COIE,...right?

Quote

 I did here the rumors about Carlos and Danielle possibly leaving the Flash before they reported it so I think its possible some of these claims are true (even if its just repeating what's floating around the internet). 

This year or after next year's crossover?

CabotCove

CabotCove

(edited)
Quote

I expect the focus to be on Oliver, Barry, and Kara but I can't imagine them leaving out LOT again.

I would think they would want to include Ray and Sara at least, especially with Arrow possibly getting its big send off with this event. Those 2 characters started in Arrow...

Edited by WonderArtist
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MarkHB

MarkHB

I'm interested to see if the heroes from Black Lightning join in, because if they aren't in this, then they're never going to be in a crossover because that would firmly place them outside the Arrow multiverse. It wouldn't even break their future storytelling if they were to do so, because most of the problems Freeland faces, things like drug addiction, racism, gangs, poverty, aren't conducive to being solved by outsiders coming in and punching things.

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Trini

Trini

On 3/8/2019 at 6:57 PM, MarkHB said:

The problem with a CW Superman show is that we already had a CW Superman show... It was called "Lois and Clark." 

Aw, you're not even counting Smallville? I know it was 'pre-Superman', but still.

I think the issue with a CW Superman show is that DC/WB would rather use that character someplace else where they'd get a better ROI.

9 hours ago, WonderArtist said:
Quote

We don’t know that Batwoman is starting in the fall though.

But surely she will have to be involved in COIE,...right?

Yeah, I think even if Batwoman is mid-season, she'll be in the crossover.

Trini

Trini

On 3/8/2019 at 7:55 PM, RedVitC said:

I'm not sure if that would be something they'd be willing to do, but if there ever was a time they could do a time jump for all the shows it would be around crisis on infinite earths. I suppose it would be funny if Barry returned in 2024 rather than disappeared and it would give all of the shows new material to mine. I think batwoman is a mid-season show (maybe? for some reason that's what I've been thinking but I don't know if it's confirmed) so they could just start the show in the year of the time jump.

I'm not really sure what they'd change on The Flash. A time jump is a good idea, since they won't have to line up with Arrow anymore. It would also be a good time to exit or introduce characters.

Proteus

Proteus

1 hour ago, Trini said:

I'm not really sure what they'd change on The Flash. A time jump is a good idea, since they won't have to line up with Arrow anymore. It would also be a good time to exit or introduce characters.

But there's still Supergirl, Legends, and soon Batwoman. So I don't see a time jump happening.

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CabotCove

CabotCove

(edited)
Quote

Aw, you're not even counting Smallville? I know it was 'pre-Superman', but still.

Smallville definately counts as a Superman show, IMO.

I have never believed the rumors, Clark Kent /Superman Story was already covered by Smallville. And no way is Supergirl being cancelled to do a story thats been told. 

Edited by WonderArtist
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RedVitC

RedVitC

I was thinking it could be an Arrowverse wide time jump, but that would be a pretty big (and risky) swing to take (and probably not very likely). It would help all the shows clearly delineate pre and post crisis crossover since it would be hard to immediately return to the status quo way of storytelling. But who knows what other changes they will make. 

About Batwoman, she's almost surely going to be in the crossover or at least planned to be. In Iris' 2049 article Batwoman was mentioned as one of the characters that fought alongside Flash against the reverse flash. Others mentioned were Green Arrow, Elongated Man, Atom and Supergirl. The 2024 article  mentioned Hawkgirl, I don't know if they're still planning on that. 

legaleagle53

legaleagle53

18 hours ago, Trini said:

I'm not really sure what they'd change on The Flash. A time jump is a good idea, since they won't have to line up with Arrow anymore. It would also be a good time to exit or introduce characters.

I don't think a time jump is necessary, since Barry's daughter Nora has already changed the timeline by coming back to 2018 from 2049.  We saw evidence of this recently when the date that Iris founded her newspaper (which carried the 2024 and 2048 articles) was changed from 2021 to 2019 -- two years ahead of schedule -- and Cicada was created much earlier than he originally was supposed to have been (and is a different individual in the current timeline from the Cicada in Nora's original timeline).  So I'm in the camp that says that Nora's interference in the timeline has already moved up the date of the Flash's disappearance from 2024 to 2019.

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Trini

Trini

On 3/10/2019 at 11:08 AM, RedVitC said:

I was thinking it could be an Arrowverse wide time jump, but that would be a pretty big (and risky) swing to take (and probably not very likely). It would help all the shows clearly delineate pre and post crisis crossover since it would be hard to immediately return to the status quo way of storytelling. But who knows what other changes they will make. 

What do y'all think about the (low) possibility of a time jump for the whole Arrow-verse, but before the Crisis?

With the reveal that Felicity apparently hid an entire pregnancy and child from the world for a while, what if all the shows start off next season a few years later, Crisis (crossover) happens, but the result is a reset back to... the 'present' time. So after the crossover the shows pick back up in 2019/2020 (but with whatever changes to the universe). Yes, this is overly complicated, but they are supposed to be taking "big swings".

It would solve the problem of Barry disappearing in the future, by having that still happen but then they can jump back so they can still do The Flash with its lead. Oliver can 'die' in the Crisis, but with the reset, the Arrow can still end with him alive (and the failed future erased). They could skip showing Felicity's pregnancy.

Thoughts on the theory? Too out there? Not out there enough?

RedVitC

RedVitC

On 3/13/2019 at 8:58 AM, Trini said:

It would solve the problem of Barry disappearing in the future, by having that still happen but then they can jump back so they can still do The Flash with its lead.

I've thought about the idea of them doing a timejump to 2024, but with Iris starting the central citizen 2 years early it seems they've set in motion the speeding up of things. I would prefer them to keep the 2024 date though.

It's an interesting theory and it's definitely a way around certain things, but I wonder if people might feel cheated by an approach like this even if it did bring changes to the universe. Since Crisis happens, but also not really? And would they have to then do another big crisis on infinite earths crossover in 2024?

Interestingly wrt to your theory, I was reading interviews/con stuff from right before Elsewords and both Grant and Stephen mentioned he flash getting to the newspaper article:

Grant

Quote

"It is really fulfilling" to see some of the Crisis stuff play out, Gustin told us. "I hope we can stick around long enough to see what's going on with that newspaper article. We'd have to make it four more seasons, five more seasons. It's cool, though. It feels like it's earned. Me and Stephen had that conversation a lot during the crossover, actually. There's a lot of even just comedic moments that we have that are funny because they're earned -- because of the history of the characters and the journey they've been on. It is one of the best parts of doing these as a series  versus a film -- people have been with us. I've met kids who have gone through all of high school watching this show. To have that kind of stamp on people's lives is pretty special."

Stephen (Fan Fest San Jose 2018, Dec)

Quote

I really hope, I don’t know about Arrow, but I really hope that Flash gets to meet up with…I mean, Arrow, Arrow sort of building out this 5 year backstory and getting to actually bring the viewers from the flashbacks to the present day at the end of season 5, to me that was a, that was a…bring us back from 5 years ago to the pilot by the end of season 5, to me that was a real accomplishment, so if the flash can tease something in the pilot and live 10 years to tell the story that would be double the accomplishment and I think that that would be amazing, but I have no idea how the shows will end, none whatsoever.   

I was wondering about this, because this was after the crossover was filmed, so at this point they must have already known that Crisis on Infinite Earths was coming in 2019, right? (I actually don't know, but I'm just assuming. Stephen at least usually knows what's going on with the crossover. And I think by then he'd actually already seen that last episode of the crossover as he had posted a pic that indicated he was watching it).

It's possible/probable/likely that if they  knew they just said it so they wouldn't spoil anything (or maybe they really didn't know at that point) or give anything away or make people suspicious that something was going on with that. But maybe somehow the 10 year thing is still the plan?

But for instance Grant could have just said -I hope we can stick around long enough to see what's going on with that newspaper article. - without the addition of the 5 seasons.

The question the guy asked stephen was: Will your show end with a series crossover finale against the reverse flash?  (the question asker first talked about how stephen was on some show where he talked about the ezra miller casting and the guy also mentioned the 2024 news article.)

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MarkHB
Message added by MarkHB

This thread is specifically for discussion of Elseworlds, Crisis on Infinite Earths, and speculation and spoilers directly pertaining to them.  Full rules for the thread are here; please read them.  Off-topic posts may be removed.

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