S01.E07: Falling

[Accidental Martyr]

14 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

It's not a continuity error. They've purposely done that throughout the show - Camille will see one word, and then a later shot shows a different word. In this case the first word was "Queasy" - which is how she was feeling.

All of the hidden words can be seen here.

http://www.vulture.com/2018/08/sharp-objects-all-the-hidden-words-you-missed.html

Edited August 21, 2018 by Accidental Martyr

[peach]

31 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

It's not a continuity error. They've purposely done that throughout the show - Camille will see one word, and then a later shot shows a different word. In this case the first word was "Queasy" - which is how she was feeling.

And my mind would see Queso. 

[Butless]

2 hours ago, LilaFowler said:

I'm not surprised that Chief Vickery didn't want to take Camille in for questioning. If it had been anyone other than Adora Crellin's daughter, she would have been hauled out of that motel room and loaded into a cop car bound for the station. Vickery has been protecting Adora and her reputation for decades. I think he's infatuated with her and probably enjoys the power that she has over him and his job. I think he protects Adora because he wants to.

There's something more than just his infatuation with Adora, though, based on Alan's prickly response to Vickery's visit to the house. They either have a romantic past or present, Im guessinig. Also based on the looks Vickery's wife gave Adora on Calhoun Day.

He might protect Adora, but he was still an asshole to Camille, "the bad apple." when he pointedly asked John if he was of age , while cuffing him and looking at Camille. He had a warrant for his arrest. He knew exactly how old John was.

[acid burn]

1 hour ago, Accidental Martyr said:

In an earlier episode Camille asked Ashley why she was wearing her cheerleader uniform even though school was out.

Later, though,  we see Amma and the other kids rehearsing for the play and it looks like they’re in some sort of drama class in school. When she is talking to the teacher we hear a bell ring.

 

Yeah, I think they may be in summer school, and Ashley was wearing her cheer uniform mainly to put the moves on John but probably also a few times because she'd had practice or a scrimmage or maybe pictures for the football programs. (We used to wear our uniforms in the summer for those reasons--attempted various sexytimes notwithstanding--but then again I'm old AF and I'm sure things have changed since I was in HS in the late '90s.)

Edited August 21, 2018 by acid burn

[Accidental Martyr]

18 minutes ago, acid burn said:

Yeah, I think they may be in summer school, and Ashley was wearing her cheer uniform mainly to put the moves on John but probably also a few times because she'd had practice or a scrimmage or maybe pictures for the football programs. (We used to wear our uniforms in the summer for those reasons--attempted various sexytimes notwithstanding--but then again I'm old AF and I'm sure things have changed since I was in HS in the late '90s.)

If high school in the late 90s=old AF then I might as well be dead. ;) (mid-80s)

[DangerousMinds]

4 hours ago, SimonSeymour said:

So, did  anyone else notice that John told Camille while at that bar/house that Natalie’s nails were painted when she was found murdered, and he said that she NEVER would have painted her nails? 

To me, I took that as a huge clue that someone who sees young girls as something to dress up and “make pretty” is the person who murdered her aka Adora. 

He also mentioned that the pig farm had special tools they used to remove the pigs' teeth.

Edited August 21, 2018 by DangerousMinds

[acid burn]

2 minutes ago, Accidental Martyr said:

If high school in the late 90s=old AF then I might as well be dead. ;) (mid-80s)

I feel like once you hit about 30-35, everyone's the same age.  Although apparently Camille does not share my feelings. 

[Black Knight]

9 minutes ago, Buttless said:

He might protect Adora, but he was still an asshole to Camille, "the bad apple." when he pointedly asked John if he was of age , while cuffing him and looking at Camille. He had a warrant for his arrest. He knew exactly how old John was.

It doesn't really seem that asshole-ish. It's so...indirect and compared to all the other things he could say, inconsequential. I'm not sure the writers weren't just shoehorning John's age in there for viewers so they'd know Camille didn't commit statutory rape without thinking any deeper about that line. If he really wanted to be hurtful he'd have said something about Adora, and that would have made more sense from a character point of view.

Even if the writers did mean that line to be a shot at Camille, I'm pretty much giving him a pass on this one. What Camille did would destroy her life if not for him. If all this got out, her career as a journalist would be finished, and she could easily find herself up on various charges for things from buying alcohol for a minor to helping a murder suspect elude arrest. I think she can take one mild shot from him for her nearly complete fail in good decision-making - hey, at least she didn't commit statutory rape too! It's at least fair criticism, unlike Richard's entire rant. Camille isn't his girlfriend. They barely even know each other. But he thinks he's entitled to sling vile insults at her out of petulant butthurt that she slept with some other guy. I wouldn't say his stalking is more problematic per se because both that and his reaction to her in this episode come from the same creepy place - an obsession with a woman he has known for a few days that makes him think he is entitled to everything about her from her body to her secrets.

Ashley wears her cheerleading uniform constantly because that's the main source of her popularity. It emphasizes to all who see her that she is a VIP at school. It's actually quite pathetic, but of course she wouldn't see that.

[formerlyfreedom]

This topic is about discussing the episode. Referencing the book ("this is what happened/is different in the book") will get a post removed, and repeat offenses may result in additional sanctions. Also, referencing mod actions in topic is off limits, and may also result in sanctions/post removal. If you have questions, PM the forum mod.

[peach]

10 minutes ago, acid burn said:

I feel like once you hit about 30-35, everyone's the same age.  Although apparently Camille does not share my feelings. 

You weren't rolling on molly with some 13yo's this weekend?  Doing some roller skating?

[bijoux]

I can't help thinking about Vickery's line to Adora. One [of your daughters] is dangerous and the other is in danger. Now it feels like a covert warning or snooping around. In whichever of those two roles you cast Amma, it seems like he smells something fishy. Plus, both of those things are true when it comes to her. She's in danger from Adora, and she's a danger to the town with all the manipulation, even if she has nothing to do with the murders. If the Chief turns up to be more clued in and proactive than suspected, it wouldn't be the worst revelation.

[Andromeda]

On 8/19/2018 at 7:45 PM, annlaw78 said:

Yeah, the show could have cut out 10% of the shots of Camille drinking and driving her way around town, and put in some foreshadowing of the Munchausen’s stuff before this ep.  Nothing indicated prior bouts of illness with Amma — nothing seen, no comments by the chatty folks of Wind Gap, etc. I’m not getting how Adora could have physically killed two teenage girls and hauled them around the woods and town, if that’s the turn this is taking. 

I agree. Like the G-tube thing. If Camille had seen a scar on her stomach and wondered what it was, and Amma said something about being sick once and getting food through it... but there was nothing like that. Why would Adora even risk pulling this stuff when Camille is about? 

[Butless]

11 hours ago, Black Knight said:

It doesn't really seem that asshole-ish. It's so...indirect and compared to all the other things he could say, inconsequential. I'm not sure the writers weren't just shoehorning John's age in there for viewers so they'd know Camille didn't commit statutory rape without thinking any deeper about that line. If he really wanted to be hurtful he'd have said something about Adora, and that would have made more sense from a character point of view.

Even if the writers did mean that line to be a shot at Camille, I'm pretty much giving him a pass on this one. What Camille did would destroy her life if not for him. If all this got out, her career as a journalist would be finished, and she could easily find herself up on various charges for things from buying alcohol for a minor to helping a murder suspect elude arrest. I think she can take one mild shot from him for her nearly complete fail in good decision-making - hey, at least she didn't commit statutory rape too! It's at least fair criticism, unlike Richard's entire rant. Camille isn't his girlfriend. They barely even know each other. But he thinks he's entitled to sling vile insults at her out of petulant butthurt that she slept with some other guy. I wouldn't say his stalking is more problematic per se because both that and his reaction to her in this episode come from the same creepy place - an obsession with a woman he has known for a few days that makes him think he is entitled to everything about her from her body to her secrets.

Ashley wears her cheerleading uniform constantly because that's the main source of her popularity. It emphasizes to all who see her that she is a VIP at school. It's actually quite pathetic, but of course she wouldn't see that.

I guess I dont know why anyone would expend energy to kiss the ass of a corrupt sheriff.  Blind allegiance to authoritarians?  I dont know. But the sheriff's  been spreading shitty rumors about Camille, and he was never, as in never-ever, going to do anything about her being there or doing anything wrong, due to Adora and how she'd be embarrassed from it. He's a corrupt, pathetic lackey of a woman who he never even investigated, looks like, for the mysterious sickness and death of her one kid , in light of the mysterious illnesses of her next kid.  Camille doesnt owe his ass anything.   What's more important for Camiile, is that she make herself whole again, from the inside out. If she loses a shitty job, she can get over that. If she loses a career, too. She's a survivor who has taken the worst kinds of punishment her whole life, and she's standing on her own two feet. I really feel this fretting over her is misguided loyalty, at the least.

Anyway, in light of all this, Vickery  was a complete asshole for taking that shot at her. He cant arrest her, but he can slut-shame her. That was not necessary and 100% petty of him to do that to her, and I wouldnt expect anything less from a complete asshole like him. There is zero justification for him to have said it. He knows John's age, which is written on his warrant, and he is 100% sure that he is not a minor, and that Camille didnt commit statutory rape. "Fair criticism" by Vickery? Not in the least.

As for a minor in that town drinking?  Drug and alcohol usage is rampant in that town with the minors, and John was drinking at a bar  a few seats from Richard in an earlier episode. So it's blatant hypocrisy to pin shit on Camille, He was being served  at both the bars John was in before Camille even showed up to either of them.

She made the right decision for her intimate well-being, in the end.  Seems like some people are going way out of their way to punish the character out of a weird allegiance to authoritarianism or to Dickie or a woman owning her sexuality. There's a lot of nitpicking, to prove how mentally incompetent she is, how damaged, how bad at her job she is.  Honestly, I am not sure why, considering we have seen scores and  of men in roles equivalent to this, and they are not picked apart like this. 

PS. I took at look at reddit, and the same cesspool of incels are spreading their hatred of women there, per usual.

On 8/20/2018 at 4:53 AM, bijoux said:

I find it interesting that Richard still put the files in Camille's car even though he wasn't feeling charitable towards her. It could be to warn her or to force her hand to set things into motion. 

Why would he suppress that, though? He spent all day getting progressively more sweaty, finding out this information.

And dumping them in her lap like that was actually kind of nasty of him.

On 8/20/2018 at 10:00 AM, VagueDisclaimer said:

Since I was the one who used the descriptor “gross”, I’ll hop in here.

First, we don’t know Camille’s real age, it’s never stated, but i thought she was older. Like mid thirties. 

Second, I don’t think the age of the actors has any bearing on the characters except visuals, which is how we’ve become so desensitized to the sexualizing of young people, especially girls, because in the media, often we see adults playing these teens. That isn’t a positive. If they had to have an adult playing a teenager so the audience wouldn’t really see a teenage face and body in that scene, that says something else.

Third, the double standard argument doesn’t work for me because I absolutely think it’s just as gross to see adult men waiting on the barely legal girls and I’ve always hated that trope(and that reality). So i’m going to apply that to Camille as well. You can’t say there is no power dynamics at play when “teen” is still part of a person’s age. There are. 

Finally, I get the narrative, i get the dynamics, I get how Camille regressed here and how she can more directly relate to this damaged teen than maybe someone her own age, because there’s a part of her that’s been trapped in time in this town, this house, and is the part of her that needs the most healing and understanding for the adult Camille to actually move forward. I get that her revealing her scars and not being rejected was a narratively very important and strong moment for Camille. I get all of that.

But i still can find it gross that an adult found that healing and truth by having sex with a grieving teenage boy. 

If youre complaining of the sexualizing of young people, I think you have criticism for the author, first and foremost.  I admit Im not comfortable viewing Amma as 13 and  (less so) John as 18, and I didnt read the book, so I assumed they were  about 16 and 20 for a long while before a couple posters mentioned their book ages.  I said it before; I think the creators should have aged these characters. Im not sure what it would have hurt, story wise, to have aged everyone 3 years.  It doesnt look like it would have changed anything much in the show.

That said, this is a movie, and not reality. Fiction can pretty much have 18 year olds who look 30. There is some gap in reality, from a story to our real life, and it is a minor thing (heh) to get over this, for the sake of good drama. I really do not see what all the pearl clutching is, over Camille sleeping with John. This show isnt going to corrupt the minds of the  masses of 28-35 yr old women out there to sleep with 18 year olds.  This fictional story has a context. When you strip context out of everything, the world is black and white, good and bad.  Which is bullshit in any world, real or fictional.

The double standard argument that a man who slept with a 18 year old would be gross, and so a woman should be too, is in bad faith. There  are power differentials already set up, thanks to our culture, that make these unequal comparisons from the start. At the root of why it's bad,  is a power differential between the partners, where someone is getting played; coerced; groomed. None of those things were at play in this story between Camille and John. She checked him in, gave him a bottle of water and told him to sleep it off. John was the one who initiated everything. And at 18, he is not too young to have sex. If youre worried about the law, the law OKed John to have sex too. Camille didnt lead John on. John didnt force Camille, or promise her anything ... the consternation and disgust over this point in the story is overwrought and irrelevant.

Quote

But i still can find it gross that an adult found that healing and truth by having sex with a grieving teenage boy. 

With this one sentence, you stripped away all context from the of the story. You stripped away all of John's agency. And you put all the blame on Camille.   Camille didnt use John , which is how you word the exchange between them.  If you have a problem with 18 yr olds, of whichever gender, having sex, than I guess that is your own personal moral code.  Because 18 year old have always had sex, and always will. That's why the age of consent isnt older than 18 anywhere in the US that Im aware of.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Buttless

[IDreamofJoaquin]

21 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

To be fair, when Corinne poisoned Cory in Flowers in the Attic, it was not MBP. She was either trying to kill the kids to ensure that her inheritance wasn't taken away (Cathy's interpretation) or trying to make the kids sick enough to smuggle them out of the house so she could tell the grandmother that they died (Corinne's version). The only other thing that was close was Tony having the cook put something in Annie's food after her accident but that was to keep her weak enough that she couldn't leave Farthy so I didn't think that was MBP (although now that I think about it, Tony loved playing the hero). And I think someone gave someone else laxatives (Kitty gave them to Heaven?) as a punishment but it didn't strike me as MBP. To be fair, I quit reading VC Andrews around Dawn or Ruby (the ghost writer got too repetitive for my taste) so if there's MBP in the books after that, I missed it all!

I love that you could clearly reference all of these things with distinction. And super loved that I also knew all of them by heart. 

 

This was a GREAT episode with outstanding performances by all.  The scene with John and Camille was emotional and had an impact.  Alan can fuck right off with telling Camille she was bothering Adora when he sits by and lets his daughters be killed.  The final scene with him dancing with the little girls led me to believe he was having painful memories. Why he does nothing I have no idea.  

[Stephanie23]

The way Camille still looks at her mother is so sad becuase she still expects just one kind word from her :(

But her boss is a <3 to her.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Stephanie23

[Tvfangirl]

On 8/19/2018 at 9:46 PM, Black Knight said:

I don't think Camille was suspecting Adora in Natalie and Ann's deaths. Do you mean the conversation with John? She has no idea about the Munchausen by Proxy at that point; I think she's just always interested to hear something about her mother. And if you mean the conversation with her editor, that's them talking at cross-purposes - she's talking about Marian, he thinks she's talking about Natalie and Ann because he's out of the loop.

As far as the sheriff goes, I feel he's the personification of Upton Sinclair's line, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." He's certainly heard the talk about Marian's death being Munchausen by Proxy, but we know from an earlier episode that Adora can get rid of him as sheriff if she wants. But his reaction after being told by Amma's friends that she's at home sick - maybe he had convinced himself up to now that Adora wasn't doing this with Amma too.

She was envisioning her mom lure the girls off, so yes, I do think she believes it is Adora. 

[BingeyKohan]

Agree with others this was an extremely well-crafted episode in terms of mood and tone. Suddenly seeing Amma in an unexplained flower crown was a jolt for me. I don't know where it came from (maybe it will be explained next episode, maybe it won't) but it suited the mood that suddenly everything was changing and clarifying. 

Unpopular opinion I'll express: I think the word appearances can be kind of silly. I hardly noticed any this episode, though I read Vulture's recaps of them. When Camille drives by and watches John getting hauled from his house by Vickery graffiti on the curb reads 'whine.' Maybe that's a take-off from what it read before, and the idea is the word retains many characteristics of the word it was before Camille reimagined it (another example on Vulture: a Railroad Crossing sign turns to "Dumpling" - presumably only retaining the ING in Crossing). But why would Camille see that and think 'whine'? It makes her want to whine, like a child? The whine of sirens? Some of the word morphing has an absurd, almost comic quality that doesn't match the tone of the show, and because Camille doesn't 'react' to the words, or shake them off so they go back to normal, we don't really know how she feels about them - does she agree turning the word "Caterpillar" on a tractor into "Catfight" is kind of a dumb pun, not even poetic in terms of syllable count? Does she think to herself, Camille, you're so corny? I don't know why this bothers me! I suppose it matches the very impulsive word choices she made (in some instances) for her own skin. I mean some of them I get, as an outer expression of inner torment, but some of them really do sound like words you'd write in Sharpie on a bathroom stall.

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

Quote

 

But i still can find it gross that an adult found that healing and truth by having sex with a grieving teenage boy. 

 

With this one sentence, you stripped away all context from the of the story. You stripped away all of John's agency. And you put all the blame on Camille.   Camille didnt use John , which is how you word the exchange between them.  If you have a problem with 18 yr olds, of whichever gender, having sex, than I guess that is your own personal moral code.  Because 18 year old have always had sex, and always will. That's why the age of consent isnt older than 18 anywhere in the US that Im aware of.

The original poster did none of this; the rest of her post above the one bit you quoted illustrates that she gets all of this and doesn't need a somewhat (and hopefully unintentionally) pedantic rehash. It's possible to find something unappealing and also understand its place in the narrative of a fictional story. It's also fine to see that Camille's actions are in fact a problem; her healing has zero to do with a murder investigation, no matter how shoddy that investigation seems to be, with or without her.

Edited August 21, 2018 by TattleTeeny

[Mothra]

13 hours ago, SimonSeymour said:

So, did  anyone else notice that John told Camille while at that bar/house that Natalie’s nails were painted when she was found murdered, and he said that she NEVER would have painted her nails? 

To me, I took that as a huge clue that someone who sees young girls as something to dress up and “make pretty” is the person who murdered her aka Adora. 

Yeah, I thought the fingernail-painting was a huge clue, and I can see Adora painting the nails of a corpse.  I can see, in fact, Adora luring the girls with offers of pills, "medicating" them to the point of unconsciousness, even strangling them, but I can't see her doing the dirty physical work of pulling out their teeth.  On the theory of Least Likely Character, what if it's Jackie?  She certainly has access to pills, and she seems to me like a fingernail polish kind of woman.

Is there a doctor in this little town?  Who's prescribing all these pills?  Where did Jackie get all her diagnoses?  She mentioned fibromyalgia last in her list of ailments (all of which struck me as women's disorders, btw), and I know that that is a very painful condition with really no effective treatment.  It's often dismissed as "all in your head," but if she really has constant, untreatable pain, wouldn't that make Jackie a little crazy and prone to inexplicable actions?  Is that why she drinks so much?  Is it why she always looks like she's wearing some sort of loose fancy robe--does the touch of cloth against her skin cause her pain?

And I wanted to point out that Adora's eyelash-pulling is on the same spectrum as Camille's cutting--obsessive self-harming actions that result in disfigurement.

[jeansheridan]

5 hours ago, Buttless said:

He's a corrupt, pathetic lackey of a woman who he never even investigated, looks like, for the mysterious sickness and death of her one kid , in light of the mysterious illnesses of her next kid. 

Way harsh Tai! I don't like him, but he wasn't around when Marion died and we don't know when Jackie tried to get the records or when he heard the rumors. Nobody mentioned Amma being sickly before this last ep. We saw a tantrum but Adora encourages that behavior. And the sheriff has seen Amma skating around town like a Queen Bee. He knows she is a bit of a wild child. 

His reaction when they found Natalie struck me as sincere and heartfelt. And maybe it has blinded him to investigating broader. It's hard to know what he is thinking. But he notices things. BB holes in stop signs, how to play Kelsey so she will help him, that the skater girls move in threes usually. He's flawed but I don't think evil.

[peachmangosteen]

32 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

I don't like [the sheriff], but he wasn't around when Marion died ...

Oh, he wasn't? I didn't realize that.

Edited August 21, 2018 by peachmangosteen

[bijoux]

To be honest, I don't think we really know one way or the other at this point. We only have our own conclusions, mostly based on the possible involvement between him and Adora IMO, and when that might have taken place. 

[cpcathy]

Something REALLY bothers me about the sheriff. I was convinced that after he spoke to the rollerskating girls, he was going to stop the car, get out and murder one or both of them.

Or perhaps it could be because I know he's Hardware from Meatballs.

Edited August 21, 2018 by cpcathy

[Black Knight]

Someone else we don't know about is the housekeeper. I don't think she's a live-in housekeeper, but she's certainly over at Adora's a great deal of the time. It's hard to see how she could not know what happened with Marian and what is happening with Amma, but she's a black woman in a service occupation who would be accusing a white woman who's the richest person in town, a town that thinks it's A-OK to glorify the Confederacy.

In Jackie's case, didn't Camille say that Jackie had made requests for each of the medical files and been denied every time? Or did I misunderstand what Camille was saying there? Without those medical files, Jackie's options were limited as she had no evidence. Law enforcement could have gotten those medical files, as Richard showed, but Vickery sure didn't bother, and the nurse who did have access to the medical files was promptly fired when she tried to do something.

[Blakeston]

6 hours ago, Buttless said:

With this one sentence, you stripped away all context from the of the story. You stripped away all of John's agency. And you put all the blame on Camille.   Camille didnt use John , which is how you word the exchange between them.  If you have a problem with 18 yr olds, of whichever gender, having sex, than I guess that is your own personal moral code.  Because 18 year old have always had sex, and always will. That's why the age of consent isnt older than 18 anywhere in the US that Im aware of.

I, for one, have a problem with someone in their thirties having sex with a grieving teenager who's contemplating suicide. No gender combination makes that okay. The teenager being barely legal doesn't make that okay, either.

And it's also grossly unethical for a journalist to sleep with someone at the center of a murder investigation that they're reporting on. She represents a light of hope for an innocent boy not to be framed for murder. She shouldn't be sleeping with him.

[BingeyKohan]

13 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

In Jackie's case, didn't Camille say that Jackie had made requests for each of the medical files and been denied every time? 

If Jackie's requests have been part of the public record (well, not 'public' exactly because of HIPAA, but public enough for Richard to get his hands on them, and either copy them or steal them so he could leave them for Camille) then it seems to defy logic that Adora wouldn't know about Jackie's interventions. If Richard can find out then you'd assume Vickery could too. And if Vickery knows Jackie snooped around Marion's circumstances then Adora knows it, too. At the beginning of the show Jackie told Camille that Adora wasn't speaking to her but didn't specify why - though it would seem the business with Marion was so long ago Adora wouldn't still be not speaking to her over that (and she has spoken to her, some, in the course of the show, I think). Anyway, my overall point is I find it hard to believe Adora could tolerate Jackie snooping into Marion's hospital record in a way that left a paper trail. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by BingeyKohan

[Juliegirlj]

When Richard was looking at hospital records I thought I saw a DNA test for Amma. Could Vickery be her biological father? His devotion to Adora, and his wife’s intense jealousy could mean they had an affair . 

Richard  knew Camille was damaged but his hurtful comments seem to indicate he had real feelings for Camille. 

[TattleTeeny]

58 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I, for one, have a problem with someone in their thirties having sex with a grieving teenager who's contemplating suicide. No gender combination makes that okay. The teenager being barely legal doesn't make that okay, either.

And it's also grossly unethical for a journalist to sleep with someone at the center of a murder investigation that they're reporting on. She represents a light of hope for an innocent boy not to be framed for murder. She shouldn't be sleeping with him.

Agree—and I can also see all the supposed “therapeutic” stuff people mentioned. The thing is, that (if valid from a psychological perspective) is a separate issue entirely from this investigation. That she slept with an 18-year-old riddled with issues is one thing; that she did it with this one is completely, IMO, inappropriate.

[Mothra]

1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

In Jackie's case, didn't Camille say that Jackie had made requests for each of the medical files and been denied every time? Or did I misunderstand what Camille was saying there? Without those medical files, Jackie's options were limited as she had no evidence. Law enforcement could have gotten those medical files, as Richard showed, but Vickery sure didn't bother, and the nurse who did have access to the medical files was promptly fired when she tried to do something.

I thought Camille said to Jackie "and you asked for the records every time" but I don't understand how Jackie could have had access to the records without Adora's permission; I don't understand why Jackie would think she had any kind of standing to ask for the records in the first place.  As far as we know, she's not a relative, and she's not law enforcement.  Hospitals and doctors' offices don't just hand out medical records to anyone who's interested enough to ask about them.

I don't even understand how Richard got to see, much less take (or copy) the medical records, especially Amma's.  There *might* be a warrant for Marian's, but I can't imagine on what grounds; cops might have freer access to record of dead people.  There's no way in hell Adora would agree to let Richard see Amma's medical records.

I'm really good at suspending disbelief, but this is trying.  I hope we'll be given some kind of explanation.

[aemom]

Are Jackie and Adora related or are they just friends?

Edited August 21, 2018 by AEMom
Typo

[Accidental Martyr]

4 minutes ago, Mothra said:

 

I don't even understand how Richard got to see, much less take (or copy) the medical records, especially Amma's.  There *might* be a warrant for Marian's, but I can't imagine on what grounds; cops might have freer access to record of dead people.  There's no way in hell Adora would agree to let Richard see Amma's medical records.

I'm really good at suspending disbelief, but this is trying.  I hope we'll be given some kind of explanation.

I had the same thought. Some info here:

https://www.campussafetymagazine.com/hospital/when_does_hipaa_allow_hospitals_give_patient_health_information_to_police/

[Black Knight]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

And it's also grossly unethical for a journalist to sleep with someone at the center of a murder investigation that they're reporting on. She represents a light of hope for an innocent boy not to be framed for murder. She shouldn't be sleeping with him.

A reporter getting caught by the police in a motel room fucking the murder suspect she knows they now have a warrant out for the arrest of in the murders she's reporting on? It'd destroy her career as a journalist if it got out. And that is a big deal. What kind of job would she  be able to get after being fired and having her name and picture going viral on every tabloid on the web and in print both? Every prospective employer who googled her would see all that come up, and she could kiss her chances of any good job goodbye. She'd end up with some crappy part-time job with terrible pay and no benefits. Yeah, that'll really help her life. So, just terrible decision-making all around.

And for what, really? I understood the sweetness to her of the interlude with John, but again, it was just temporary relief. It did nothing to heal her in any permanent way; no interlude is going to do that. Only long, intensive work on herself with the help of a very good therapist can. And in any case I think most of the value to her was actually in the non-sexual part, in his seeing and reading her body. Learning that he thinks she's fuckable after seeing her body? She could've gotten that validation, if she needed it, without actually engaging in the sex. The fact that she lucked out in that because she's a Preaker she won't face any long-term consequences for something that only brought her a few minutes of relief and comfort doesn't change she made terrible decisions here.

[BingeyKohan]

48 minutes ago, Mothra said:

I thought Camille said to Jackie "and you asked for the records every time" but I don't understand how Jackie could have had access to the records without Adora's permission; I don't understand why Jackie would think she had any kind of standing to ask for the records in the first place.  As far as we know, she's not a relative, and she's not law enforcement.  Hospitals and doctors' offices don't just hand out medical records to anyone who's interested enough to ask about them.

I don't even understand how Richard got to see, much less take (or copy) the medical records, especially Amma's.  There *might* be a warrant for Marian's, but I can't imagine on what grounds; cops might have freer access to record of dead people.  There's no way in hell Adora would agree to let Richard see Amma's medical records.

I'm really good at suspending disbelief, but this is trying.  I hope we'll be given some kind of explanation.

Great point. And is there really some official protocol for documenting people who requested records but were turned down? Especially in a small town hospital with probably not great record keeping to begin with? It seems like that exchange would just go like: Jackie walks up to the counter and asks - they tell her no, she leaves. no paper trail, or official forms to file away. I just don't see her taking the exposure risk of filing paperwork.

[LeGrandElephant]

I could see Adora drugging/poisoning girls, dressing them up, painting their nails, etc... but I really can't see her doing the gruesome teeth part. In fact I can't see anyone doing that or why they would want to, but her least of all, she seems too frail and hung up on appearances. 

I suspected Munchhausen's By Proxy before this for Marion, but it does seem out of nowhere for Amma - I don't recall any mentions of Amma being sickly, let alone with anything to serious as to require a g-tube. That should have been mentioned before now, to not seem like a ret-con. Amma has always seemed very hale and hardy and not at all worried about her own physical health or wellbeing, and no one else has mentioned her being sickly. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by LeGrandElephant

[Schmolioot]

Just now, LeGrandElephant said:

I could see Adora drugging/poisoning girls, dressing them up, painting their nails, etc... but I really can't see her doing the gruesome teeth part. In fact I can't see anyone doing that or why they would want to, but her least of all, she seems too frail and hung up on appearances. 

I suspected Munchhausen's By Proxy before this for Marion, but it does seem out of nowhere for Amma - I don't recall any mentions of Amma being sickly, let alone with anything to serious as to require a g-tube. That should have been mentioned before now, to not seem like a ret-con. Amma has always seemed very hale and hardy and not at all worried about her own physical health or wellbeing, and no one else has mentioned her being sickly. 

Yeah the extent of Amma’s illnesses as stated in the medical records don’t really jive with the seemingly healthy, developed and athletic young girl we’ve seen.

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, AEMom said:

Are Jackie and Adora related or are they just friends?

As far as I can tell, friends. I think it would have been mentioned they were family by now. Then again, we have Amma's sudden medical history which wasn't alluded to before, so a familial connection isn't out of the realm of possibility. 

[izabella]

11 minutes ago, LeGrandElephant said:

I suspected Munchhausen's By Proxy before this for Marion, but it does seem out of nowhere for Amma - I don't recall any mentions of Amma being sickly, let alone with anything to serious as to require a g-tube. That should have been mentioned before now, to not seem like a ret-con. Amma has always seemed very hale and hardy and not at all worried about her own physical health or wellbeing, and no one else has mentioned her being sickly. 

I thought the g-tube was for Marian.  We got the g-tube information from the nurse that Richard went to see, the one who was fired for raising the red flag about Marian.   Am I misremembering?

I didn't think we had much info on Amma, except for the files Richard gave to Camille.

Edited August 21, 2018 by izabella

[Schmolioot]

6 minutes ago, izabella said:

I thought the g-tube was for Marian.  We got the g-tube information from the nurse that Richard went to see, the one who was fired for raising the red flag about Marian.   Am I misremembering?

I didn't think we had much info on Amma, except for the files Richard gave to Camille.

No the g-tube nurse was the fired nurse’s friend who still worked at the hospital that she suggested Richard see if she wanted info on “the other one”, i.e. Amma

[peach]

1 hour ago, Mothra said:

I don't even understand how Richard got to see, much less take (or copy) the medical records, especially Amma's.  There *might* be a warrant for Marian's, but I can't imagine on what grounds; cops might have freer access to record of dead people.  There's no way in hell Adora would agree to let Richard see Amma's medical records.

I might be remembering this wrong, but didn't the nurse who was fired for reporting Adora's actions give him the file?  She saved her own copy as evidence, I thought.

[ferjy]

1 hour ago, Mothra said:

I thought Camille said to Jackie "and you asked for the records every time" but I don't understand how Jackie could have had access to the records without Adora's permission; I don't understand why Jackie would think she had any kind of standing to ask for the records in the first place.  As far as we know, she's not a relative, and she's not law enforcement.  Hospitals and doctors' offices don't just hand out medical records to anyone who's interested enough to ask about them.

I don't even understand how Richard got to see, much less take (or copy) the medical records, especially Amma's.  There *might* be a warrant for Marian's, but I can't imagine on what grounds; cops might have freer access to record of dead people.  There's no way in hell Adora would agree to let Richard see Amma's medical records.

I'm really good at suspending disbelief, but this is trying.  I hope we'll be given some kind of explanation.

I had the same problem with this. As I was watching I had to hunt back in my memory to see if there was mention of Jackie being a relative. Even then it wouldn’t be easy but at least it would give her some leverage. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by ferjy

[peach]

4 minutes ago, ferjy said:

I had the same problem with this. As I was watching I had to hunt back in my memory to see if there was mention of Jackie being a relative. Even then it wouldn’t be easy but at least it would give her some leverage. 

At the beginning of the series, I thought she was Camille's aunt for some reason.  And at Natalie's funeral, they showed Jackie, Camille, and Adora all sitting in row, with similar profiles, which I thought was intended to mean they were all family.  But since then she's seemed to be in "old friend" territory. 

[ferjy]

9 minutes ago, peach said:

I might be remembering this wrong, but didn't the nurse who was fired for reporting Adora's actions give him the file?  She saved her own copy as evidence, I thought.

That’s right. It was all hush-hush. He got the nurse’s name from Jackie. They even made a point of showing the receptionist being uncooperative, she wasn’t giving out any info. 

[tennisgurl]

Jackie comes off very much as the “wine aunt” in both the past and the present, even though she and Adora are just long time friends and not sisters. I think Camille realized that Jackie knew probably hurt Camille as much, if not more, than realizing what Adora did. It seems like she and Jackie were close in the past, and still have a warm relationship, while she’s always had a strained relationship with Adora. This must feel like an awful betrayal.

[Mothra]

2 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

Great point. And is there really some official protocol for documenting people who requested records but were turned down? Especially in a small town hospital with probably not great record keeping to begin with? It seems like that exchange would just go like: Jackie walks up to the counter and asks - they tell her no, she leaves. no paper trail, or official forms to file away. I just don't see her taking the exposure risk of filing paperwork.

However it was that Jackie requested the records, in a small town I don't think there'd have to be a record of people requesting records--it would be all over town by the next day!  Which brings up the point of, if it was common gossip that Jackie requested the medical records, were the other ladies in town suspi9cious, too?

[candle96]

On 8/20/2018 at 2:24 PM, Schmolioot said:

Something interesting that the show hasn’t dwelled on but is interesting nonetheless is how Wind Gap is kind of a town out of time. It’s almost a feudal lordship.

There don’t seem to be any democratic institutions. No Mayor or city council that we’re shown (and usually the small town mayor is a character in stories like this). Somebody is paying Vickery and the deputies but Adora seems to have the power to fire him herself.

The town has internet but it’s nowhere near as central or ubiquitous as it should be in 2018. No one has mentioned checking the murdered girls social media. We’ve seen a lot of teenagers getting together and no one has mentioned Instagram or Twitter. Camille has followed Amma to a hog farm but has never appeared to have considered checking her Facebook to see what she’s been up to. Ashley mentions wanting to be in the paper several times but no girl her age would care about that. They want to be viral.

In fact, I’m pretty sure that the only place we’ve seen a television was at the wine mom’s house where they were watching beaches. We’ve seen several teenagers rooms and I don’t  recall seeing a single tv, computer or video game. Stuff almost all kids have at least one of now.

Moreover, the citizens don’t seem to make use of any service beyond the borders of the town. All Jackie had to do to help was make one call to child protective services. Wind Gap May be an insulated community but they’re part of a county and state where there are laws and departments and bureaucracies that are there to handle these situations. But she doesn’t even seem to have considered this bare minimum step

Its just very odd and I wish it had been explored more

I think this show would've benefited from being set at an earlier time, as your insightful post points out how some elements strain credibility. My nitpick is when the detective was talking to the disgraced nurse about her time at the hospital and she said something like, "we didn't keep records back then," as if back then was 80 years ago. It was at most 25 years ago that Marian died, maybe 20. It's 2018! I just chuckled because I've been working at hospitals for almost 20 years, and we most certainly kept good records "back then," as is required. We even had email and cell phones 20 years ago!

[Mothra]

1 hour ago, peach said:

I might be remembering this wrong, but didn't the nurse who was fired for reporting Adora's actions give him the file?  She saved her own copy as evidence, I thought.

I think you're right!  That clears up a whole lot.

[msrachelj]

15 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

He also mentioned that the pig farm had special tools they used to remove the pigs' teeth.

this show is making me swear off pork.at least when it's not humanely raise and bought at the farmers market. well, that goes for all meat. but i can barely handle thinking about the abuse. 

[Mothra]

3 hours ago, msrachelj said:

this show is making me swear off pork.at least when it's not humanely raise and bought at the farmers market. well, that goes for all meat. but i can barely handle thinking about the abuse. 

Your mentioning the grossness and abuse involved in the pig operation has made me think of this:  although Adora is very proud of her roots (she practically came all over herself watching Amma portray Millie Calhoun's torture), I'm not sure that family money from a hog-raising and slaughtering operation is all that genteel, no matter how many generations it goes back.  Adora tells the photographer who was taking pictures of the ivory floor that she is descended from the Calhouns and the Preakers, that the Calhouns had the name and the Preakers the money.  Where your money comes from (and how "old" it is) was very important in the old south, and while "Calhoun" is indeed a noble old southern name, "Preaker" sounds downright trashy.  I'm not sure what (if anything) this means, but the contrast between the two names is pretty stark imo.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Mothra
Name fix

[bijoux]

They're Preaker, not Preakins.

[msrachelj]

On 8/20/2018 at 2:24 PM, Beezella said:

I can't think of anything more insulting for Richard to have said to Camille. "This room f**cking stinks of you. Believe me I know the smell."

The song at the end was so perfect. A haunting melody with a story as horrifying as the show. If anyone is interested in the musicality: http://acousticguitar.com/play-the-traditional-song-down-in-the-willow-garder/

And as sung by The Everly Brothers:

 

You really can't blink in this show. The memory flashbacks are sometimes literally the blink of an eye. Adora biting her baby, The "medicine" being administered in the past.

great song...i don't think it was the everly brothers version, i thought it was a woman. nora something?

i thought that line from richard was very fitting. did he have any right to say it since he was just a casual sex partner to her? no. but she looks like she smells and she probably did. she needs to get help from a shrink obviously. yes, she had some bad shit happen in her life. so did i, but i'm not a slut/alcholic fucking guys 20 years younger and hanging out with 13 year olds. jeez. i have to remember this is just a tv show/book. sometimes you get wound up in these things.