S04.E02: Breathe

[nodorothyparker]

I don't "like" Gus in the same way that I didn't "like" Chuck.  Two very different characters, but neither are people I'd ever want to spend time with in real life despite both being extremely well written and portrayed and having given me a lot to think about out here in my ruminating on the human condition.  Because we've seen how they both end between the two shows, they're both also quite tragic figures.  Whatever they may have been in life, they didn't live to enjoy the fruits of what they'd done or even see that they were mostly right about Jimmy or Walter White respectively.

[Tikichick]

19 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It is certainly a mystery.  We don't even know when Chuck wrote it.  He could have written it while Jimmy was still working in the mail room, while Jimmy was bringing him supplies every day, after Jimmy found out that Chuck had blocked him becoming at attorney at HHM or very recently.   The fact that Howard had it would suggest it wasn't very recent, as in after Howard forced him out.  That would mean it was probably written before Jimmy and Chuck's last meeting.  

When it was written could greatly affect its contents.   

If he really wanted to twist the knife in Jimmy's back, maybe he would reveal that their mother cried out for Jimmy on her death bed, while Jimmy was out getting a sandwich.  

I wouldn't be surprised if it is more positive than we might expect.

Yep, that's why I said loving, possibly disappointed brother.  Chuck loved Jimmy very much at a certain point in their lives, and vice versa.  Things happened to twist up their relationship on both sides.  Chuck had valid reasons to be frustrated by and disappointed by Jimmy.  I think most of the venom Chuck ultimately felt originated externally, not from the brothers themselves.  Whatever Chuck's trigger point was, he ultimately allowed that venom to take his legitimate frustrations with Jimmy and twist them into a poison he directed at Jimmy.  Won't it just be a kick in the pants if the letter either triggers Jimmy to ultimately "poison" himself to become Saul -- or perhaps Gene is indeed his post Saul hidden life and  somehow he ultimately reads the letter at that late date and Chuck's loving words both help wake him up and urge him on from his half life existence, but doing so forces him to face the grief of Chuck's loss?  That Gene reads the letter is my current favorite idea. 

My money is on the sweet side, ultimately bittersweet -- which at this point would blindside Jimmy, and be quite the switcheroo to most of the audience.

[Colorado David]

4 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Yep, that's why I said loving, possibly disappointed brother.  Chuck loved Jimmy very much at a certain point in their lives, and vice versa.  Things happened to twist up their relationship on both sides.  Chuck had valid reasons to be frustrated by and disappointed by Jimmy.  I think most of the venom Chuck ultimately felt originated externally, not from the brothers themselves.  Whatever Chuck's trigger point was, he ultimately allowed that venom to take his legitimate frustrations with Jimmy and twist them into a poison he directed at Jimmy.  Won't it just be a kick in the pants if the letter either triggers Jimmy to ultimately "poison" himself to become Saul -- or perhaps Gene is indeed his post Saul hidden life and  somehow he ultimately reads the letter at that late date and Chuck's loving words both help wake him up and urge him on from his half life existence, but doing so forces him to face the grief of Chuck's loss?  That Gene reads the letter is my current favorite idea. 

My money is on the sweet side, ultimately bittersweet -- which at this point would blindside Jimmy, and be quite the switcheroo to most of the audience.

I hope its a "happy" letter, not Chuck twisting the knife into Jimmy. That'd probly make me cry.

[Tikichick]

Just now, Colorado David said:

I hope its a "happy" letter, not Chuck twisting the knife into Jimmy. That'd probly make me cry.

But a "happy" letter from the heart of his now dead, previously idolized big brother will be gut wrenching.  I hope it gives insight into precisely what it was that caused Chuck to twist up so bitterly against Jimmy.  It's the only hope I have that some spark of Jimmy will emerge from the clutches of Saul and the half life of Gene.  I warily and resentfully gave this spin off a try despite my complete and total disdain for Saul.  Color me surprised when Jimmy McGill charmed my socks off. 

[Colorado David]

Great point. It will probably be wrenching no matter what.

[wendyg]

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Now, apparently Jimmy wants Mike to steal them.

I don't think this is where the story is going. It's too obvious for these writers, and also Jimmy would know Mike was not going to *enjoy* stealing them; there's no cleverness involved. Whatever the plan is, it's something else.

[ShadowFacts]

59 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Won't it just be a kick in the pants if the letter either triggers Jimmy to ultimately "poison" himself to become Saul -- or perhaps Gene is indeed his post Saul hidden life and  somehow he ultimately reads the letter at that late date and Chuck's loving words both help wake him up and urge him on from his half life existence, but doing so forces him to face the grief of Chuck's loss?  That Gene reads the letter is my current favorite idea. 

Yes, Gene reading the letter would have the maximum impact on me as a viewer.  Any more bile is just not necessary.  It would add nothing to the story.  Except for a few nurturing or approving bits when Jimmy was a kid or working in the mailroom, we've had non-stop ugliness from Chuck.  We know that song. 

[Ellaria]

32 minutes ago, wendyg said:

I don't think this is where the story is going. It's too obvious for these writers, and also Jimmy would know Mike was not going to *enjoy* stealing them; there's no cleverness involved. Whatever the plan is, it's something else.

I don't think that's where it is going either. Besides, a Hummel with a supposed value of around $9,000 is kind of small potatoes for Jimmy and Mike. Perhaps it just serves to bring them back into each other's orbit instead of the separate storylines that we have been watching for awhile.

 

49 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

But a "happy" letter from the heart of his now dead, previously idolized big brother will be gut wrenching.  I hope it gives insight into precisely what it was that caused Chuck to twist up so bitterly against Jimmy.  It's the only hope I have that some spark of Jimmy will emerge from the clutches of Saul and the half life of Gene.  I warily and resentfully gave this spin off a try despite my complete and total disdain for Saul.  Color me surprised when Jimmy McGill charmed my socks off. 

My guess is that the letter will not be 100% happiness or condemnation. It will be an honest accounting of their relationship, good and bad. It might serve as the conversation that they Jimmy and Chuck should have had years ago.

Ultimately, I would like Gene to read the letter. And I hope that the letter will lead him to recall Jimmy's strengths (intelligence, humor, etc). I want Jimmy to emerge once again because he has charmed me as well and I want to see some of that character return. One character in this universe has to see the error of his ways and try to find a better path. 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

On 8/17/2018 at 7:45 AM, ShadowFacts said:

I don't want to think Kim would be that stupid. 

That ship sailed a long time ago. Her association with Jimmy took care of that.

[shapeshifter]

22 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Alternatively, I do want to be BFF with Kim. Her response to Howard was perfectly measured and delivered. Her eventual break with Jimmy will be heartbreaking for all, including me. I like those two as a couple.

I keep wondering if we didn't see her in BrBa because she was in prison . ☹️

But I also wonder if the letter could be some sort of codicil to the will that would give Jimmy  a pile of money to abandon Kim—ostensibly for her benefit—and perhaps part of Jimmy truly severing ties with her is for him to change his name.

 

20 hours ago, Tikichick said:

somehow he ultimately reads the letter at that late date and Chuck's loving words both help wake him up and urge him on from his half life existence, but doing so forces him to face the grief of Chuck's loss?  That Gene reads the letter is my current favorite idea. 

It could be a satisfying series finale for Eugene to read the letter and have some sort of spiritual release from it, but, to me, those views of his thinning hair and stooped shoulders kind of telegraph a near end to his life.

Edited August 19, 2018 by shapeshifter

[Jextella]

I'm curious as to what Howard's fate will be on the show.  I've always liked his character and I hope he sticks around in some way, but I'm not so sure.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Jextella

[PeterPirate]

I don't think I want to see Kim with Gene after all.  It was one thing for her to show loyalty to Jimmy who only manufactured evidence, and who also gave up a million dollars to restore Irene's reputation.  It would be quite another for her to go back to him after learning he was the consigliere to the largest meth manufacturer in the area.   

[Bryce Lynch]

On 8/17/2018 at 9:49 PM, Irlandesa said:

While she's willing to walk on the wild side, the arc to get Kim to moll would require a much larger story arc than it will take to move Jimmy to Saul and Jimmy's arc has been slow and deliberate.  I just can't see it.

No. I don't think she has to suffer tremendously but I do think he has to lose her. While Kim has been willing to engage in shenanigans with Jimmy, she has her limits.  She is careful to set boundaries professionally.  She has been disappointed in Jimmy when she has felt he has gone too far.  As long as Jimmy has Kim, he's either going to try to not go too far that he'd lose her or at least try to hide it from her if he has gone too far. 

For him to live as openly as Saul lives, I don't think he has any hope that he could be with Kim again.  I think that means she walks away and is either unavailable or cuts herself off from him.  (I actually don't think death would necessarily cut it in the same way Chuck's death affected him.  It's not the same kind of relationship.)

If they go that route (which has been my "out there" spec from season 1), I don't think it's going to be a hate turned into love kind of thing. Howard and Kim have been professional allies and they've also been at odds.  They went up against one another last season in relation to Chuck, yet in the first episode of the season they appeared kind to one another at Chuck's house.  Howard's reaction to Kim's anger wasn't "how dare she" but rather distress.  So the blowout was big but I don't see it as some kind of point of no return in regards to the two of them having a relationship in the future whether it's professional, friendly or something more.

I do think that Howard and Kim are on parallel paths and Howard is ahead of Kim.  Both Howard and Kim love and respected a McGill brother even if the McGill Brother vendetta put them in some awkward positions because of their loyalty to their respective brother.  Howard finally realized his connection to Chuck was going to cost him sooner or later so he tried to minimize the damage.  I think Kim will have to make the same realization one day and do the hard work as well.

 

He mentioned in S3 that he caught his second ex-wife cheating on him with his step-father. 

I can't see a realistic scenario where Kim sleeps with Jimmy's step-father.  His mother died years earlier and there was no 2nd husband mentioned or present at her deathbed scene.

I suspect Saul was just BSing Walt.  But, if it really happened, I think it would be much more realistic if it happened years earlier in Cicero.  Maybe his grieving Mom got swindled by some guy who married her for her life insurance money, or something and also slept with Jimmy's wife.  

[scenario]

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I can't see a realistic scenario where Kim sleeps with Jimmy's step-father.  His mother died years earlier and there was no 2nd husband mentioned or present at her deathbed scene.

I suspect Saul was just BSing Walt.  But, if it really happened, I think it would be much more realistic if it happened years earlier in Cicero.  Maybe his grieving Mom got swindled by some guy who married her for her life insurance money, or something and also slept with Jimmy's wife.  

How would anyone trust Saul to tell the truth. He's probably telling the truth about two wives because that would be common knowledge. But anything he says that the two wives did is likely to be a lie or exaggeration. I could see Saul getting drunk and marrying someone he's know for a couple of weeks and then divorcing her a month later. There's no rule that one of the wives had to stick around for long.  

[Dev F]

2 hours ago, scenario said:

How would anyone trust Saul to tell the truth. He's probably telling the truth about two wives because that would be common knowledge. But anything he says that the two wives did is likely to be a lie or exaggeration.

Well, to me, like I said, I'd rather it not be a lie because I think it's more interesting if it's the truth. We only got a handful of substantial clues about Saul's background in Breaking Bad, and this is probably the one that on its face is the most meaningful -- since it's Saul's own example of the kind of event that made him into the cynical sleazeball he became. If there's a way not to just completely handwave it away, I'm all for it.

Also, just from the perspective of story logic, I'm not totally sold on the notion that Saul was the kind of guy who would just randomly tell lies about his own past to manipulate people. He was always more of a "selective truth" kinda guy, the kind who's eager to share elements of his real life when it's safe to do so. Heck, he told Walt his real name was McGill and he was only pretending to be Jewish before Walt even shared his real name!

[Ottis]

This whole episode was about the characters doing things... going to great lengths at times... to do things you wouldn’t think they would want to do. And they all are signs of what drives each person, and later will likely be a key factor in their ultimate fate:

- Gus keeping Hector alive, even bringing in a doc for it, when killing Hector might make Gus #1 in his territory.

- Nacho supporting MORE drugs for the Salamonca organization, backing up Arturo to do it, after trying to kill Hector. And telling an unconscious Hector that things are running well on the street. BTW, Nacho's dad is so dead. "It's over" indeed.

- Jimmy trying to get a mundane job, and landing one - and then he deep sixes it. Because that's not Jimmy. Chuck was right.

- Mike insisting on being seen as a legit security contractor, instead of watching baseball and raking in (his own) money. And Lydia thinking Mike is nuts.

That envelope to Jimmy had what looked like a sentence on it. Or a full name and nickname. It was more than Jimmy’s name. 

Edited August 20, 2018 by Ottis

[kicksave]

Personally, I'm having problems getting into it this season. I'm bored with the Jimmy/Kim relationship and find the show slow moving. I think I would like it better if it was on HBO or Showtime where there aren't commercials breaking it up constantly. Also the long hiatus was a problem for me...don't get your hopes up that Rhea Seehorn will even be nominated for an Emmy or win one. They have nominated Jonathan Banks and he has never won it. I think they have bias against AMC and this show. 

Edited August 20, 2018 by kicksave

[Ottis]

7 minutes ago, kicksave said:

Also the long hiatus was problem for me...don't get your hopes up that Rhea Seehorn will even be nominated for an Emmy or win one.

ITA, and think these overlong gaps between seasons can't be doing the shows (this one and others) much good. But maybe TV people are smarter than me.

8 minutes ago, kicksave said:

I think I would like it better if it was on HBO or Showtime where there aren't commercials breaking it up constantly.

We record it and watch later, forwarding through the commercials. I do that with every show I watch. That's still a gap, but brief enough.

 

On 8/18/2018 at 8:37 AM, Ellaria Sand said:

Alternatively, I do want to be BFF with Kim. Her response to Howard was perfectly measured and delivered. Her eventual break with Jimmy will be heartbreaking for all, including me. I like those two as a couple.

Hell, if all that happens to Kim is that she breaks up with Jimmy, we should count that as a win. I fear it will be something much worse.

[Ohwell]

I agree that it's show moving, but hopefully things pick up now that more of the Breaking Bad characters are showing up.  I'm also tired of Kim, not that I want her to get killed off, but I hope she leaves town soon so we don't have to see her anymore.

[Bryce Lynch]

22 hours ago, Dev F said:

Well, to me, like I said, I'd rather it not be a lie because I think it's more interesting if it's the truth. We only got a handful of substantial clues about Saul's background in Breaking Bad, and this is probably the one that on its face is the most meaningful -- since it's Saul's own example of the kind of event that made him into the cynical sleazeball he became. If there's a way not to just completely handwave it away, I'm all for it.

Also, just from the perspective of story logic, I'm not totally sold on the notion that Saul was the kind of guy who would just randomly tell lies about his own past to manipulate people. He was always more of a "selective truth" kinda guy, the kind who's eager to share elements of his real life when it's safe to do so. Heck, he told Walt his real name was McGill and he was only pretending to be Jewish before Walt even shared his real name!

It is possible the step-dad sleeping with his 2nd wife story is true (though it could also be BS).  But, I think it extremely unlikely that that 2nd wife was Kim.  The idea that his mother remarried seem fairly plausible, since, as best as I can figure, his mother probably lived for about 20 years after his father died.  Based upon Jimmy's discussion with Marco, Mrs. McGill's death seems to be established to have been around 1999 and I think Jimmy was roughly 18 when his father died (going by Chuck's talk with Kim) and would have been late 30s in 1999.  

Jimmy having 2 wives before he moved to ABQ seems consistent with the character.  

It would seem extremely far fetched that he and Kim get married and then Kim sleeps with his late mother's 2nd husband.  There just doesn't seem to be an opportunity to this happen and it would be totally out of character for Kim.

[Irlandesa]

Rhee Seahorn has an interview at AMC about this episode.  I thought she had an interesting perspective on Kim yelling at Howard that I don't recall being considered---In that moment, for Kim, Howard was a Chuck surrogate.  She was mad at how Chuck treated Jimmy but since he wasn't around, she lost it on his law partner.

Here's the Q&A if you'd like to read her other thoughts.

[qtpye]

19 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It is possible the step-dad sleeping with his 2nd wife story is true (though it could also be BS).  But, I think it extremely unlikely that that 2nd wife was Kim.  The idea that his mother remarried seem fairly plausible, since, as best as I can figure, his mother probably lived for about 20 years after his father died.  Based upon Jimmy's discussion with Marco, Mrs. McGill's death seems to be established to have been around 1999 and I think Jimmy was roughly 18 when his father died (going by Chuck's talk with Kim) and would have been late 30s in 1999.  

Jimmy having 2 wives before he moved to ABQ seems consistent with the character.  

It would seem extremely far fetched that he and Kim get married and then Kim sleeps with his late mother's 2nd husband.  There just doesn't seem to be an opportunity to this happen and it would be totally out of character for Kim.

I know it is hard to keep track of age since everyone from BB is supposed to be younger and actually look older, but how old was Jimmy supposed to be when he moved to Albuquerque?

19 hours ago, kicksave said:

Personally, I'm having problems getting into it this season. I'm bored with the Jimmy/Kim relationship and find the show slow moving. I think I would like it better if it was on HBO or Showtime where there aren't commercials breaking it up constantly. Also the long hiatus was a problem for me...don't get your hopes up that Rhea Seehorn will even be nominated for an Emmy or win one. They have nominated Jonathan Banks and he has never won it. I think they have bias against AMC and this show. 

The Americans will probably win everything, which will piss me off since this is a far better show...at least compared to the last two seasons of that show.

[Bryce Lynch]

10 minutes ago, qtpye said:

19 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It is possible the step-dad sleeping with his 2nd wife story is true (though it could also be BS).  But, I think it extremely unlikely that that 2nd wife was Kim.  The idea that his mother remarried seem fairly plausible, since, as best as I can figure, his mother probably lived for about 20 years after his father died.  Based upon Jimmy's discussion with Marco, Mrs. McGill's death seems to be established to have been around 1999 and I think Jimmy was roughly 18 when his father died (going by Chuck's talk with Kim) and would have been late 30s in 1999.  

Jimmy having 2 wives before he moved to ABQ seems consistent with the character.  

It would seem extremely far fetched that he and Kim get married and then Kim sleeps with his late mother's 2nd husband.  There just doesn't seem to be an opportunity to this happen and it would be totally out of character for Kim.

I know it is hard to keep track of age since everyone from BB is supposed to be younger and actually look older, but how old was Jimmy supposed to be when he moved to Albuquerque?

I think Jimmy was roughly 30 when he moved to ABQ.   The Breaking Bad wikia lists him as 40 in the 1st episode of BCS, which takes place in 2002 and I believe Marco said he hadn't seen him in 10 years, when he went home to visit him.  

[Gobi]

On 8/16/2018 at 11:08 PM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

An ex-wife has no standing to challenge a will. A brother does.

Her only possible claim would be if the divorce agreement included giving her a percentage (or specific dollar amount) from Chuck's estate. And in that situation, she would be asserting a debt against the estate, not challenging the will. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 8/23/2018 at 6:24 AM, Gobi said:

Her only possible claim would be if the divorce agreement included giving her a percentage (or specific dollar amount) from Chuck's estate. And in that situation, she would be asserting a debt against the estate, not challenging the will. 

Yes; only if she and Chuck had had a minor child who had been disinherited, could she have asserted a challenge against the will on behalf of the child.

Jimmy would likewise have had no standing if Chuck had surviving children or grandchildren. It's only because he is the person who would have inherited if Chuck had died intestate that he has such standing.

Edited August 24, 2018 by ItCouldBeWorse

[shapeshifter]

On 8/20/2018 at 1:51 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

It is possible the step-dad sleeping with his 2nd wife story is true (though it could also be BS). 

Yes, and

On 8/21/2018 at 9:19 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

I think Jimmy was roughly 30 when he moved to ABQ.   The Breaking Bad wikia lists him as 40 in the 1st episode of BCS, which takes place in 2002 and I believe Marco said he hadn't seen him in 10 years, when he went home to visit him.  

a guy from Cicero who turned 30 around 1992 could easily have had 2 ex-wives, and that could also make a step-father of Jimmy's around 40s when a 20-something wife slept with him. The part that makes it all fall apart into BS for me is Jimmy's father being a stepfather--but it could be. Maybe Chuck and Jimmy are half brothers. Maybe Chuck's father died and their mom remarried and had Jimmy. Sorry. I can spin stuff all night.

 

 

16 hours ago, Gobi said:

On 8/16/2018 at 10:08 PM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

An ex-wife has no standing to challenge a will. A brother does.

Her only possible claim would be if the divorce agreement included giving her a percentage (or specific dollar amount) from Chuck's estate. And in that situation, she would be asserting a debt against the estate, not challenging the will. 

So does this mean the series could end with Eugene being chased and found by the guy in the car outside the Cinnabon--who turns out to be a fed--and Eugene/Saul/Jimmy goes to prison for a couple of years for racketeering and then gets out and has all his other debts paid by Chuck's estate because Kim had contested it for him before he disappeared the first time as Saul?

[ItCouldBeWorse]

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

So does this mean the series could end with Eugene being chased and found by the guy in the car outside the Cinnabon--who turns out to be a fed--and Eugene/Saul/Jimmy goes to prison for a couple of years for racketeering and then gets out and has all his other debts paid by Chuck's estate because Kim had contested it for him before he disappeared the first time as Saul?

Not since Jimmy signed the waiver and took the $5000. Once the waiver is filed, the remaining assets of the estate will be disbursed to Rebecca and the new foundation.

I find it unlikely that Chuck wouldn't have brought up 2 brief, failed marriages as further proof of Jimmy's failures unless he either didn't know about them, or didn't want his own failed marriage to Rebecca to be part of the discussion. 

[Bryce Lynch]

9 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

a guy from Cicero who turned 30 around 1992 could easily have had 2 ex-wives, and that could also make a step-father of Jimmy's around 40s when a 20-something wife slept with him. The part that makes it all fall apart into BS for me is Jimmy's father being a stepfather--but it could be. Maybe Chuck and Jimmy are half brothers. Maybe Chuck's father died and their mom remarried and had Jimmy. Sorry. I can spin stuff all night.

Jimmy's mother apparently outlived his father by about 20 years, so a remarriage while Jimmy was still in Cicero seems feasible.   

[Tatum]

I'm really late to watch this episode, so hopefully someone is still reading this thread. One question is really bothering me- what does Gus want with Nacho? Why wouldn't he kill them both? Or, take out Nacho in another way so as not to ruffle any feathers from Hector/Tuco's side? Nacho is middle management and also known to be somewhat of a softie on the street (I think back when the guy came up short and Nacho was going to let it go until Hector pressured him  and then Nacho went out and cleaned his clock), so I wouldn't think Gus would fear either sparking an internal drug war or losing a good employee. And what the the song and dance about shorting Arturo and Nacho if they were going to ambush them anyways? Was that exchange an audition for Nacho, in that Gus admired Nacho insisting on taking the full amount? Or does Gus just intend to play with Nacho before killing him as retribution for Nacho screwing up control freak Gus's long term plans?

 

Also, given how insane of a control freak Gus is, I just can't believe he's cool with Mike taking it upon himself to audit Madrigal and spook the legit employees. He may realize value in Mike legitimizing his paycheck and pointing out where they were lacking in security, but that doesn't mean he wants someone he can't control poking around without permission- or at least a heads up.

[Hanahope]

I am not sure if BB plot lines are allowed or not, but I do love how Gus' own decisions over Hector

Spoiler

ended up causing his own death.  If Gus wasn't so dead set on torturing Hector - thus helping treat his stroke, Gus may have eventually won over Walt.  But his character flaw, needing revenge, destroyed him.

 

I suppose they had to show Nacho disposing of the pills in a more 'public' manner in order for Gus to be sure that Nacho had a hand in Hector's stroke.  

I can't fathom what Chuck wrote to Jimmy.  He's never respected him, but if the letter was written before the whole Mesa Verde incident, it might not be so mean.  It might have been more encouraging of Jimmy to stay on the "straight and narrow," and "work hard."  But I'm sure there would still be some lording over Jimmy words in there, especially since Chuck left Jimmy only $5,000.  Jimmy certainly should consider contesting the will, especially if the divorce was final.  Jimmy has very little to lose, that $5,000 is not chicken feed, but its not far off.

[ShadowFacts]

12 minutes ago, Tatum said:

I'm really late to watch this episode, so hopefully someone is still reading this thread. One question is really bothering me- what does Gus want with Nacho? Why wouldn't he kill them both? Or, take out Nacho in another way so as not to ruffle any feathers from Hector/Tuco's side? Nacho is middle management and also known to be somewhat of a softie on the street (I think back when the guy came up short and Nacho was going to let it go until Hector pressured him  and then Nacho went out and cleaned his clock), so I wouldn't think Gus would fear either sparking an internal drug war or losing a good employee. And what the the song and dance about shorting Arturo and Nacho if they were going to ambush them anyways? Was that exchange an audition for Nacho, in that Gus admired Nacho insisting on taking the full amount? Or does Gus just intend to play with Nacho before killing him as retribution for Nacho screwing up control freak Gus's long term plans?

 

Also, given how insane of a control freak Gus is, I just can't believe he's cool with Mike taking it upon himself to audit Madrigal and spook the legit employees. He may realize value in Mike legitimizing his paycheck and pointing out where they were lacking in security, but that doesn't mean he wants someone he can't control poking around without permission- or at least a heads up.

Gus, as he said, owns Nacho now.  He can use him as he pleases.  He doesn't trust him, he has him followed, and he knows he tried to kill Hector.  Gus doesn't mind causing a little chaos, either, if it will suit his long-term goals.  I don't think he's exactly playing with him, he set him up and will keep him around until he reaches his expiration date.  That's my take-home, anyway.

[Tatum]

20 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Gus, as he said, owns Nacho now.  He can use him as he pleases.  He doesn't trust him, he has him followed, and he knows he tried to kill Hector.  Gus doesn't mind causing a little chaos, either, if it will suit his long-term goals.  I don't think he's exactly playing with him, he set him up and will keep him around until he reaches his expiration date.  That's my take-home, anyway.

I get that, but to what end? What does Nacho have that makes keeping him alive worth it to Gus? I mean, I like Nacho, a lot, but I can't see how he has much value for Gus to keep him around. He's already head and shoulders above Hector and his crew and doesn't really need the help of having an inside man. And he's too unpredictable for Gus's own crew.

 

ETA: I guess what I was getting at, was do people think that Gus has some level of respect for Nacho and wants him on his crew? Or does he feel that Nacho will have some value as part of Hector's team, as unpredictable and careless as he can be? Is Nacho a dead man or can he redeem himself in Gus's eyes? I know probably time will tell, I am just curious as to what the thoughts are on a Gus/Nacho dynamic.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Tatum

[ItCouldBeWorse]

14 minutes ago, Tatum said:

I get that, but to what end? What does Nacho have that makes keeping him alive worth it to Gus? I mean, I like Nacho, a lot, but I can't see how he has much value in keeping him around.

 

ETA: I guess what I was getting at, was do people think that Gus has some level of respect for Nacho and wants him on his crew? Or does he feel that Nacho will have some value as part of Hector's team, as unpredictable and careless as he can be? Is Nacho a dead man or can he redeem himself in Gus's eyes? I know probably time will tell, I am just curious as to what the thoughts are on a Gus/Nacho dynamic.

I thought he wanted him to spy/provide info on others in the Salamanca organization.

[Tatum]

3 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I thought he wanted him to spy/provide info on others in the Salamanca organization.

Could be, but at this point, Gus is so far ahead of the game anyways (he was a lot smarter than Hector, had a better product, a better transport, a better presentation), and Hector is permanently sidelined and his successor isn't likely to be any better- having a spy just seems so superfluous. But that could be what he wants, I guess.

[ShadowFacts]

50 minutes ago, Tatum said:

Could be, but at this point, Gus is so far ahead of the game anyways (he was a lot smarter than Hector, had a better product, a better transport, a better presentation), and Hector is permanently sidelined and his successor isn't likely to be any better- having a spy just seems so superfluous. But that could be what he wants, I guess.

I don't think a spy is superfluous.  The old double-agent dynamic is time-honored.  Gus knows Tuco will get out of jail and will continue running the Salamancas.  Nacho is now under Gus' thumb by way of Nacho knowing he can end up like Arturo at either Gus' hands or the Salamancas, if Gus lets the truth be known.  He's got him where he wants him, for whatever he wants him to do. 

[CigarDoug]

On 8/14/2018 at 11:37 AM, SailorGirl said:

ooh, interesting question -- I hadn't thought about that! Gus did say he decided what happened to Hector. . . . I just assume a Johns Hopkins doctor would be ethical -- as most people would -- but there's a lot of dirty doctors out there -- regardless of what institution they are affiliated with. 

You assume that she actually is employed at Johns Hopkins and is on the up and up. Gus is capable of a lot of things. To screw my tin-foil hat on a bit tighter, how likely is it that a Doctor from India who works in Maryland is fluent in Spanish? That seems convenient.

[Anela]

I love Kim, and I love how they stand up for each other. 

[znewbooks]

Right