S04.E01 Smoke

[SailorGirl]

49 minutes ago, wendyg said:

A small point: I really love the detail that Juan Bolsa translates to "Johnny Sack".

No. Way. That is beyond awesome. 

[preeya]

How did MikeE manage to steal the Madrigal employee's ID badge? How did he even know about him or where he lived?

[wendyg]

The show skips over that, but it's fairly easy: we see Mike asking for the company's address when he calls Directory Assistance. So my assumption is he stakes out the company parking lot, picks an employee he thinks is suitable for him to impersonate (bald, same height), follows him home, and then steals the credential, which most people probably do keep in their car and hobbles the car so the guy will be delayed. Then all he has to do is show up the next morning. If you know how security consultants do the kind of attack Mike did, all his activities once he was in were pretty clear. Companies often hire this type of consultant to attempt to get in and use "social engineering" to convince people to give them stuff they shouldn't in order to test the quality of their security. They don't usually steal credentials and mess up people's cars, though.

[Julia67]

On 8/6/2018 at 10:39 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

t seemed like he was pulling back from becoming Saul, but now he seems to be Saul.  His reaction to Howard was the most evil we've seen Jimmy on BCS.

I felt like Jimmy's reaction to Howard was more relief than cold.  It seemed almost like Jimmy felt absolved of any guilt he may have felt for what happened to Chuck because he realized Howard had fired him and THAT was the real reason Chuck relapsed.  Just a theory..... 

[kieyra]

21 minutes ago, preeya said:

How did MikeE manage to steal the Madrigal employee's ID badge? How did he even know about him or where he lived?

I think (and I admittedly have to FF through great big chunks of this show) that Mike disabled the kid's bike, then somehow got into the briefcase (which was pointedly placed on the sidewalk) while the father/Madrigal employee was fixing the bike.

How he selected/targeted a balding guy, I don't know. 

[Julia67]

On 8/7/2018 at 1:21 AM, WritinMan said:

Considering the long breaks between seasons (particularly between 3 and 4) remembering the details is hard, but this site is really very helpful for looking things up:

http://breakingbad.wikia.com/wiki/Breaking_Bad_Wiki

Thanks for sharing this!  We actually rewatched Season 3 or BCS last weekend so we'd be ready for the premiere!  It helped a lot!

[Penman61]

4 hours ago, Ike Mana said:

I'm glad BCS is back. I didn't realize the opening scenes were a dream.

Wait, what?  Gene's paranoia threads through the sequence, but how do we know it was a dream?

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, wendyg said:

A small point: I really love the detail that Juan Bolsa translates to "Johnny Sack".

Yes, that was intentional, the creators discussed it while Breaking Bad was on the air.  

On a related note, with all the "Don Hector, Don Eladio" talk, I was waiting for the awkward moment when Nacho called him "Don Juan" but it never happened. 

Does Fring already hate Bolsa the way he hates Hector and Eladio?  He clearly had motive to hate Eladio for ordering Max's murder and Hector for gleefully carrying it out.  But, does he also blame Bolsa?  In the BCS scene at Eladio's pool, it seemed like Gus was Bolsa's, "golden boy", with all the profits (neatly packaged) that he sent to the cartel.  I am wondering if Gus secretly despises him already, of if his animosity towards him only started with the war between the cartel and the Fring operation, over Fring protecting Walt and starting his own super lab, rather than distributing the cartel meth.  

6 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

Wait, what?  Gene's paranoia threads through the sequence, but how do we know it was a dream?

I don't think they are a dream.  I have always taken them as flash forwards to sometime after the end of BB.   My best guess is they take place around 2015, when BCS was first aired.  

[LoneHaranguer]

Did I miss something or did Chuck the prodigy never get a master's degree? That may explain why Jimmy didn't. Getting an LLM, even from a state university, would have gotten Jimmy much more respect than his online degree from American Samoa, but I could see Chuck not wanting Jimmy to surpass him in any way.

 

BTW, I liked how subtle the writers were in giving Gene a fake social security number. Doing three digits at a time disguised the middle double-zero that a clerk who understands the system so well ought to have noticed.

[Dobian]

I miss Chuck already. What Jimmy did to Howard was cold but totally in Jimmy's character.  Self-preservation is his driving force, and this was an opportunity he wasn't going to skip.  The cold opening was pretty intense with that cab driver.  I look forward to the developments with Gus and Nacho, and Mike over at Madrigal.  Glad this show is back.

[Atlanta]

33 minutes ago, LoneHaranguer said:

Did I miss something or did Chuck the prodigy never get a master's degree? That may explain why Jimmy didn't. Getting an LLM, even from a state university, would have gotten Jimmy much more respect than his online degree from American Samoa, but I could see Chuck not wanting Jimmy to surpass him in any way.

 

BTW, I liked how subtle the writers were in giving Gene a fake social security number. Doing three digits at a time disguised the middle double-zero that a clerk who understands the system so well ought to have noticed.

I don't get why Jimmy didn't get a JD (juris doctorate) from a small no-name uni, but went with American Samoa. To practice in New Mexico, they would have to be accredited by the state's Bar Association, however I don't know NM's rules for that. Could it be for comedic effect? Most lawyers don't have a Master's degree as us in the States think of it. A JD is considered a terminal degree like a PhD, MFA, MD, etc. Most here get their Bachelor's degree (takes 4 years unless you're Super Chuck or also attend classes in the summers) and three years for law school. I guess I associate LLM with British Commonwealth countries. I have friends who are lawyers. Maybe I can ask.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Atlanta

[Soobs]

Howard never had Jimmy's back so then he expects Jimmy to comfort him? Nah brah. He was as dismissive as Howard has always been to him. I really didn't see that as evil, just human.

I think the opening was real. That cabbie recognized him. I'd love to see more of the present and less cartel stuff.

[Bryce Lynch]

18 minutes ago, Soobs said:

Howard never had Jimmy's back so then he expects Jimmy to comfort him? Nah brah. He was as dismissive as Howard has always been to him. I really didn't see that as evil, just human.

I think the opening was real. That cabbie recognized him. I'd love to see more of the present and less cartel stuff.

Howard had Jimmy's back when he pushed for Davis & Main to offer him that cushy job, which ended up hurting Howard's reputation.  He also knew recommending Jimmy would anger Chuck.  He was put in a tough position, stuck between two brothers in an ever escalating petty sibling rivalry, and in the early years being forced to play the heavy, when it was really Chuck who didn't want Jimmy being a lawyer at HHM or even using the name McGill.  He also often tried to get Chuck to lighten up in his retaliation against Jimmy.

What I saw as "evil" was that Chuck appeared to take pleasure in finding out that he contributed to Chuck's death by ratting him out to the insurance company, and in the fact that Howard though it was all his fault and was torn apart with guilt.  Kim looked stunned at Jimmy's reaction.  Then he started happily whistling, making coffee and I believe intentionally overfeeding the goldfish.  He better hope the vet doesn't find out, or he might hire one of his own contacts to kill Jimmy. :)

The whistling is key, because in Breaking Bad, it was Walt whistling, after having a heart to heart about how devastated he supposedly was over the Drew Sharp murder, was what made Jesse first realize how cold and heartless Walt had become. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

I'm glad BCS is back. I didn't realize the opening scenes were a dream.

They weren't, according to Vince Gilligan. And the confusion stems from Gilligan maybe being a little overly clever. Cottonwood Mall is the fictitious mall from Breaking Bad. But there's a real Cottonwood Mall in Nebraska and that's where the Cinnabon is where "Gene" works. I think the name was supposed to be a fan-friendly Easter egg but instead it's just causing a lot of confusion.

It's been so long since Season 3 I've largely forgotten most of Mike's story. I've caught up with some recaps but I'm still confused how he wound up interacting with Lydia and how that all came about. 

Also, apparently there was some significance with the garden hose his granddaughter was using to water? Like he used it for something else (nefarious?) in a previous episode then turned it into a sprinkler for her? I don't know how we're expected to remember all these details from over a year ago . . . at my age no less!

[SailorGirl]

5 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

They weren't, according to Vince Gilligan. And the confusion stems from Gilligan maybe being a little overly clever. Cottonwood Mall is the fictitious mall from Breaking Bad. But there's a real Cottonwood Mall in Nebraska and that's where the Cinnabon is where "Gene" works. I think the name was supposed to be a fan-friendly Easter egg but instead it's just causing a lot of confusion.

It's been so long since Season 3 I've largely forgotten most of Mike's story. I've caught up with some recaps but I'm still confused how he wound up interacting with Lydia and how that all came about. 

Also, apparently there was some significance with the garden hose his granddaughter was using to water? Like he used it for something else (nefarious?) in a previous episode then turned it into a sprinkler for her? I don't know how we're expected to remember all these details from over a year ago . . . at my age no less!

I was only up to speed because I went on Netflix over the weekend and watched the last three episodes of season 3. One of my FB friends had the same question about Mike and Lydia -- here's  the answer:

Mike had $200K he needed to launder. He approached Gus to launder it through one of the Los Pollos Hermanos locations, since Gus was successfully using LPH to money-launder. Gus did not help him through LPH but instead sent him to Lydia Rodarte-Quayle at Madrigal. She "hired" him as a "security consultant" at a rate of $10K/week, thus laundering his money through a legit channel. Gus kindly paid all the taxes and various fees so Mike would get his full amount (and to build loyalty from Mike, one assumes). 

Mike, being Mike, apparently decided he should do the job he was being paid to do, just for the hell of it I guess, because he's Mike. Thus, the whole "security assessment" of the local Madrigal office and warehouse.

Edited August 8, 2018 by SailorGirl

[ShadowFacts]

8 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

They weren't, according to Vince Gilligan. And the confusion stems from Gilligan maybe being a little overly clever. Cottonwood Mall is the fictitious mall from Breaking Bad. But there's a real Cottonwood Mall in Nebraska and that's where the Cinnabon is where "Gene" works. I think the name was supposed to be a fan-friendly Easter egg but instead it's just causing a lot of confusion.

It's been so long since Season 3 I've largely forgotten most of Mike's story. I've caught up with some recaps but I'm still confused how he wound up interacting with Lydia and how that all came about. 

Also, apparently there was some significance with the garden hose his granddaughter was using to water? Like he used it for something else (nefarious?) in a previous episode then turned it into a sprinkler for her? I don't know how we're expected to remember all these details from over a year ago . . . at my age no less!

Thanks for that clarification about the Gene sequence.  I never had the impression that any of his scenes were dreams, though.  I figured there must be things named Cottonwood all over the place.

I also get a little annoyed with not being able to remember old plot details, and I don't generally go back and rewatch and am too lazy to do much internet research.  It is just too long between seasons for me to retain full interest. 

The garden hose with spikes in it was used by Mike to hijack a Salamanca truck (and get a good samaritan killed), wasn't it?  I think he let Kaylee help make a few holes in it.  I also seem to remember that the money being laundered through Madrigal is from Gus for Mike jamming up Salamanca.  A reward of sorts. 

[kieyra]

33 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

They weren't, according to Vince Gilligan. And the confusion stems from Gilligan maybe being a little overly clever. Cottonwood Mall is the fictitious mall from Breaking Bad. But there's a real Cottonwood Mall in Nebraska and that's where the Cinnabon is where "Gene" works. I think the name was supposed to be a fan-friendly Easter egg but instead it's just causing a lot of confusion.

It's been so long since Season 3 I've largely forgotten most of Mike's story. I've caught up with some recaps but I'm still confused how he wound up interacting with Lydia and how that all came about. 

Also, apparently there was some significance with the garden hose his granddaughter was using to water? Like he used it for something else (nefarious?) in a previous episode then turned it into a sprinkler for her? I don't know how we're expected to remember all these details from over a year ago . . . at my age no less!

Why did people think it was a dream?

(I'm not following any of it closely enough and I've missed why they thought so.)

[Lonesome Rhodes]

2 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Wait, what?  Gene's paranoia threads through the sequence, but how do we know it was a dream?

At least two major clues for me as to why it was a dream.

1)  Gene asked to go to the Cottonwood Mall.  That mall is in Albuquerque, not Omaha.

2)  He got spooked by the driver at a random moment.  He insists that the driver abort the trip and the taxi does not stop.  After a second time, the taxi stops.  It happens to be two doors down from a domicile known to Gene?  That's dream logic.

An additional point is that the first thing we see of Jimmy is awakening in bed next to Kim.

One thing that mitigates against it being a dream is that Jimmy would weirdly have knowledge that he would end up at a Cinnabon.

[Bannon]

3 hours ago, SailorGirl said:

No. Way. That is beyond awesome. 

Awww, Gilligan and Gould really shoulda' given Juan some sweet domestic scenes with Mrs. Bolsa, too.

[Bannon]

46 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

They weren't, according to Vince Gilligan. And the confusion stems from Gilligan maybe being a little overly clever. Cottonwood Mall is the fictitious mall from Breaking Bad. But there's a real Cottonwood Mall in Nebraska and that's where the Cinnabon is where "Gene" works. I think the name was supposed to be a fan-friendly Easter egg but instead it's just causing a lot of confusion.

It's been so long since Season 3 I've largely forgotten most of Mike's story. I've caught up with some recaps but I'm still confused how he wound up interacting with Lydia and how that all came about. 

Also, apparently there was some significance with the garden hose his granddaughter was using to water? Like he used it for something else (nefarious?) in a previous episode then turned it into a sprinkler for her? I don't know how we're expected to remember all these details from over a year ago . . . at my age no less!

There is a real Cottonwood Mall in Rio Rancho, NM, a couple miles from the Albuquerque city limits. Albuquerque really doesn't have suburbs, per se, but Rio Rancho is the largest adjoining municipality.

[Bryce Lynch]

21 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

They weren't, according to Vince Gilligan. And the confusion stems from Gilligan maybe being a little overly clever. Cottonwood Mall is the fictitious mall from Breaking Bad. But there's a real Cottonwood Mall in Nebraska and that's where the Cinnabon is where "Gene" works. I think the name was supposed to be a fan-friendly Easter egg but instead it's just causing a lot of confusion.

It's been so long since Season 3 I've largely forgotten most of Mike's story. I've caught up with some recaps but I'm still confused how he wound up interacting with Lydia and how that all came about. 

Also, apparently there was some significance with the garden hose his granddaughter was using to water? Like he used it for something else (nefarious?) in a previous episode then turned it into a sprinkler for her? I don't know how we're expected to remember all these details from over a year ago . . . at my age no less!

I think you have a little "transpositional error", as Saul would put it.   (BB Episode 208) 

There is a real Cottonwood Mall in ABQ, with a Cinnabon, where the Gene scenes are filmed.   They use the real name of the shooting location as the name of the fictional mall in Omaha.   I vaguely seem to remember them saying they did this to avoid having to shoot around or edit out the signs at the mall.  

[Bryce Lynch]

20 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Awww, Gilligan and Gould really shoulda' given Juan some sweet domestic scenes with Mrs. Bolsa, too.

And Mrs. Bolsa would be "Rubenesque", battling a weight problem since she had the kids.  Turns out the whole Fring vs. Cartel war started with a joke Victor made about her weight. :)

[SoMuchTV]

oops

Edited August 8, 2018 by SoMuchTV
wrong thread - moving...

[Bryce Lynch]

35 minutes ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

At least two major clues for me as to why it was a dream.

1)  Gene asked to go to the Cottonwood Mall.  That mall is in Albuquerque, not Omaha.

2)  He got spooked by the driver at a random moment.  He insists that the driver abort the trip and the taxi does not stop.  After a second time, the taxi stops.  It happens to be two doors down from a domicile known to Gene?  That's dream logic.

An additional point is that the first thing we see of Jimmy is awakening in bed next to Kim.

One thing that mitigates against it being a dream is that Jimmy would weirdly have knowledge that he would end up at a Cinnabon.

I am pretty sure it is canon that the Gene scenes are actual post Breaking Bad events.    

I think he was spooked by a) The ABQ Isotopes air freshener (purchased at the DEA owned A1 Car Wash, no doubt).  b) The fact that the driver kept staring at him in the mirror.  c) The driver being so fixated that he missed the light turning green.  

What domicile was known to Gene?  It looked to me like he got dropped off on a random street and after hiding briefly started walking to the mall to get his car.  

It would also seem unlikely that all 4 Gene Scenes are from the same dream, as they cover separate events 1) A regular day at Cinnabon and being briefly spooked by the guy who recognized a woman standing behind him 2) Getting locked in the trash room.  3) Taking his lunch break, ratting out the shoplifter, telling him to get a lawyer and then fainting.  4) The hospital and cab scene.  I guess 4 is a continuation of 3, but 1 and 2 are totally disjointed.  

[iMonrey]

Quote

The garden hose with spikes in it was used by Mike to hijack a Salamanca truck (and get a good samaritan killed), wasn't it?  I think he let Kaylee help make a few holes in it.  

Thank you! I remember that scene now. The podcast I listened to mentioned this being a call-back to an earlier episode and I couldn't remember the significance.

Quote

I think you have a little "transpositional error", as Saul would put it.   (BB Episode 208) 

There is a real Cottonwood Mall in ABQ, with a Cinnabon, where the Gene scenes are filmed.   They use the real name of the shooting location as the name of the fictional mall in Omaha.   I vaguely seem to remember them saying they did this to avoid having to shoot around or edit out the signs at the mall.  

OK. Again, maybe I messup up the details or the podcasters did . . . but apparently Vince Gilligan himself has talked about the significance of the name and has verified the black and white "Gene" scenes are not, in fact, a dream, nor did he have any intentions to make the audience think they were.

[monagatuna]

2 hours ago, Atlanta said:

I don't get why Jimmy didn't get a JD (juris doctorate) from a small no-name uni, but went with American Samoa. To practice in New Mexico, they would have to be accredited by the state's Bar Association, however I don't know NM's rules for that. Could it be for comedic effect? Most lawyers don't have a Master's degree as us in the States think of it. A JD is considered a terminal degree like a PhD, MFA, MD, etc. Most here get their Bachelor's degree (takes 4 years unless you're Super Chuck or also attend classes in the summers) and three years for law school. I guess I associate LLM with British Commonwealth countries. I have friends who are lawyers. Maybe I can ask.

 

It's probably for comedic effect. As far as I know, there is no law school in American Samoa. And it's really common to get your JD in a state you don't practice in. All you have to do is pass the bar in that state (and sometimes not even then), and one day of the bar is multi-state, so if you do well enough in one state, you may not have to take that section if you move states. The bar exam tests on federal and state law, but you can get a bar prep course that will help you remember the law in the state you want to practice in (and, importantly, how it may differ from federal law). And if Jimmy was able to get through law school in a correspondence course, I have no doubt he'd do fine with an online bar prep course for NM. Law school teaches you how to think critically and understand basic concepts of the law. Specific application of those concepts with respect to specific laws comes during bar prep and actual practice, because there's no way you can actually know all the laws all the time. In fact (at least in California when I took the bar), the bar exam itself will give you practicals with a library and no outside knowledge is permitted. It's meant to test your application of the law presented to you, not your rote memorization of the law.

Edited to add: I was reading a recap (Rolling Stone, maybe?) that named the character actor who played the cabdriver. I forget the name, but they mentioned he's a busy character actor and the production wouldn't have flown him out to film just for one scene, so it's likely he is going to be a significant character in coming episodes.

Edited August 8, 2018 by monagatuna
Added stuff

[Dev F]

5 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

Speaking of Gene speculation, did anyone else listen to the "official" podcast for this episode (s3e1)?  Did I mishear, or did Vince Gilligan say that we don't actually know whether the Gene scenes came before or after the BB timeframe?  I thought it was a given that it was after, based on Gene looking older and very nervous, but apparently that's not cannon?  Another case of "Gilligan maybe being a little overly clever"?  Or am I out of the loop?

I haven't listened to the podcast, but maybe Gilligan was saying we don't know whether the Gene scenes take place during or after the Breaking Bad time frame? That is, it's possible that they're taking place after the BB finale, but they could also be taking place after Saul and Walt get relocated by the Disappearer but before Walt returns to Albuquerque a year later to lay everything to rest.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

I am happy to accept Gilligan's intentions.  I am also quite hopeful that the end of BCS will be as he has indicated in a recent interview (sorry, no link).  I can't, and won't, hold him to it, though.

[SoMuchTV]

1 minute ago, Dev F said:

I haven't listened to the podcast, but maybe Gilligan was saying we don't know whether the Gene scenes take place during or after the Breaking Bad time frame? That is, it's possible that they're taking place after the BB finale, but they could also be taking place after Saul and Walt get relocated by the Disappearer but before Walt returns to Albuquerque a year later to lay everything to rest.

The above was in response to: "38 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

Speaking of Gene speculation, did anyone else listen to the "official" podcast for this episode (s3e1)?  Did I mishear, or did Vince Gilligan say that we don't actually know whether the Gene scenes came before or after the BB timeframe?  I thought it was a given that it was after, based on Gene looking older and very nervous, but apparently that's not cannon?  Another case of "Gilligan maybe being a little overly clever"?  Or am I out of the loop?"

I think I broke the time-space continuum because I originally posted my question here, thinking I was in the Gene speculation thread, then deleted it & reposted over there.  So Dev was very efficient & apparently posted as I was moving it.  So if that confused anyone, this explanation should assure that you are moreso.  Carry on.

[Bryce Lynch]

25 minutes ago, Dev F said:

I haven't listened to the podcast, but maybe Gilligan was saying we don't know whether the Gene scenes take place during or after the Breaking Bad time frame? That is, it's possible that they're taking place after the BB finale, but they could also be taking place after Saul and Walt get relocated by the Disappearer but before Walt returns to Albuquerque a year later to lay everything to rest.

I just listened to Gilligan in the podcast for 401.  It is clear that the Gene Scenes are not a dream, but he left it open as to whether they take place after Felina, or in the period covered by Granite State through Felina.   Odenkirk  was speculating about whether Gene would still be in trouble and afraid if he knew Walter White was dead, or if he could come out of hiding.  Gould said he couldn't because "If your're Al Capone's banker and  Al Capone dies, you're still on the hook".  Gilligan chimed in that you might even be more on the hook, because they didn't get Capone.  (That has always been my take, the DEA would take out their anger against Walt on Saul). 

Then Gilligan asked if we really know whether the Gene Scenes take place before or after Walt dies.  Gould agreed that we don't know for sure and that it is a question that will have to be answered.

It sounded like they wanted to a) Keep a little mystery about when the scenes take place.  b) Leave themselves some wiggle room for the timeline.  Who knows, maybe Mr. Lambert will make a pit stop in Omaha for some cinnamon buns, on his way from NH to ABQ. :)

Edited August 8, 2018 by Bryce Lynch

[buttercupia]

On 8/7/2018 at 1:47 PM, 100Proof said:

He was one of the guitar players in Spinal Tap.

I was going to say he was Waiting for Guffman in a Mighty Wind.

[LoneHaranguer]

2 hours ago, SailorGirl said:

Mike, being Mike, apparently decided he should do the job he was being paid to do, just for the hell of it I guess, because he's Mike. Thus, the whole "security assessment" of the local Madrigal office and warehouse.

Mike needed to protect himself. If the place were to come under scrutiny and security was poor,  the scheme would fall apart.

 

3 hours ago, Atlanta said:

I don't get why Jimmy didn't get a JD (juris doctorate) from a small no-name uni, but went with American Samoa. To practice in New Mexico, they would have to be accredited by the state's Bar Association, however I don't know NM's rules for that. Could it be for comedic effect? Most lawyers don't have a Master's degree as us in the States think of it. A JD is considered a terminal degree like a PhD, MFA, MD, etc.

A lot of Bachelors degrees are considered terminal, but going further is a chance to improve your credentials (e.g. you've got a "Masters from MIT", rather than a "Bachelors from (Z)UMass"). Jimmy didn't want Chuck to know he was working on a JD in case he failed; at the time, he wouldn't have had much choice in how to do that.

Edited August 8, 2018 by LoneHaranguer

[buttercupia]

I loved the episode. Mike was perfect. Fring was terrifying. And Jimmy.  Poor Jimmy. He's in deep grief. No matter what, he always loved and took care of his brother. He's pushing all that grief and guilt down under a facade of IDGAF, but that dam is going to break, mark my words, especially since he now knows he contributed to Chuck's suicide. I was half in tears through the whole thing.

[Soobs]

5 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Howard had Jimmy's back when he pushed for Davis & Main to offer him that cushy job, which ended up hurting Howard's reputation.  He also knew recommending Jimmy would anger Chuck.  He was put in a tough position, stuck between two brothers in an ever escalating petty sibling rivalry, and in the early years being forced to play the heavy, when it was really Chuck who didn't want Jimmy being a lawyer at HHM or even using the name McGill.  He also often tried to get Chuck to lighten up in his retaliation against Jimmy.

What I saw as "evil" was that Chuck appeared to take pleasure in finding out that he contributed to Chuck's death by ratting him out to the insurance company, and in the fact that Howard though it was all his fault and was torn apart with guilt.  Kim looked stunned at Jimmy's reaction.  Then he started happily whistling, making coffee and I believe intentionally overfeeding the goldfish.  He better hope the vet doesn't find out, or he might hire one of his own contacts to kill Jimmy. :)

The whistling is key, because in Breaking Bad, it was Walt whistling, after having a heart to heart about how devastated he supposedly was over the Drew Sharp murder, was what made Jesse first realize how cold and heartless Walt had become. 

One of the things I like about the show is that the interactions are nuanced so that you can see them multiple ways. The way I saw it, Howard got Jimmy the cushy job as a way to have him in a respectable position and also to get him out of their hair. Jimmy wanted to be in the firm with them and that offer, to him, was a slap in the face as he would always be an outsider to his brother and his clique. Howard was definitely looking after his (the firms) interests in trying to keep the peace. Sure Howard didn't have to get Jimmy a job at all, but he's self serving too. He definitely barked up the wrong tree looking to Jimmy for absolution.

Still not seeing Jimmy as evil at this point. Rude for sure. Hurt people hurt people (and maybe fish too, lol!).

[ilovebeaarthur]

6 hours ago, monagatuna said:

Edited to add: I was reading a recap (Rolling Stone, maybe?) that named the character actor who played the cabdriver. I forget the name, but they mentioned he's a busy character actor and the production wouldn't have flown him out to film just for one scene, so it's likely he is going to be a significant character in coming episodes.

I think I read the same recap. It’s from Alan Sepinwall: https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-recaps/better-call-saul-recap-season-4-episode-1-smoke-706456/

He named the cabbie as character actor Don Harvey, but I don’t believe I know who he is. 

[Irlandesa]

6 hours ago, Soobs said:

One of the things I like about the show is that the interactions are nuanced so that you can see them multiple ways. The way I saw it, Howard got Jimmy the cushy job as a way to have him in a respectable position and also to get him out of their hair. Jimmy wanted to be in the firm with them and that offer, to him, was a slap in the face as he would always be an outsider to his brother and his clique. Howard was definitely looking after his (the firms) interests in trying to keep the peace. Sure Howard didn't have to get Jimmy a job at all, but he's self serving too. He definitely barked up the wrong tree looking to Jimmy for absolution.

I agree that Howard had multiple reasons for getting Jimmy the job.  Some of them were political.  Some were self-serving.  And some were because he liked Jimmy.  But speaking on seeing things multiple ways, I didn't think he came to Jimmy looking for absolution, necessarily, but rather to connect with the only other who cared about Chuck.  With all their problems, Howard knew Jimmy took care of his brother for a long time.  I think that's also why he wanted to loop him in with the obituary. 

[ShadowFacts]

I was a little surprised that Howard came to the suicide conclusion so fast.  I think accident would have been the first thought.  The fact that Chuck was experienced in handling the lamps does not rule out an accident.  Absent some evidence like a note (which would have burned) I think the official ruling would be accidental.  There's more dramatic impact with Howard, Jimmy and Kim thinking it's suicide, but in real life I don't know if survivors would be too sure. 

[wendyg]

Bryce Lynch: Thanks for posting the podcast link. I particularly liked this exchange:

"How the hell did you burn that house down?"

"It was a shame. The family was very nice about it..."

[CigarDoug]

On 8/7/2018 at 1:47 PM, 100Proof said:

He was one of the guitar players in Spinal Tap.

It was all those drummers dying mysteriously that caused his mental illness. ("I mean, you can't dust for vomit, so...")

[Ottis]

Loved this episode. Yes, the pacing was slow, but it was very interesting to watch. The shot choices (underneath the box when Kim opened it, water swirling in the sink before heading down the drain, etc.) were all so different. And of course the trademark music where something is happening and you're not sure what, but it's enjoyable as hell (Mike as security guy). So glad this show is back.

Only one question: What did Mike see on his check that caused him to say, "Huh?" I was hoping it was something odd like a United Way contribution, and he went to the trouble of sneaking into the Madrigal facility solely to do something about that. He didn't, but still wonder what he saw.

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

I was a little surprised that Howard came to the suicide conclusion so fast.  I think accident would have been the first thought. 

To be fair, Howard immediately ruled out accident, based on what Howard had seen in the past. I was more surprised that suicide would be the conclusion because Chuck loved himself so much, why would he kill himself? Yes, Howard mentioned Chuck was "strong." But that's not the same thing as thinking so much of yourself, and your contributions to the world, that you couldn't possibly fathom ending your life - that would take your presence from the world! Nobody went there, though.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

I was a little surprised that Howard came to the suicide conclusion so fast.  I think accident would have been the first thought.  The fact that Chuck was experienced in handling the lamps does not rule out an accident.  Absent some evidence like a note (which would have burned) I think the official ruling would be accidental.  There's more dramatic impact with Howard, Jimmy and Kim thinking it's suicide, but in real life I don't know if survivors would be too sure. 

The official ruling is probably accidental. But Howard feels guilty and knows how he devastated Chuck and essentially took away the single thing he lived for. He also knows how careful Chuck was, and that he had mental issues. Given the timing, for me it was pretty understandable that Howard would put those facts together and come to that conclusion. Jimmy and Kim also have their share of guilty knowledge which would lead them to believe Howard's conclusion.

I looked up Don Harvey on IMDB, and though I haven't seen him - he was a regular on The Deuce, The Last Tycoon, and General Hospital. But his eyes were certainly distinctive enough - I recognized him immediately.

Edited August 9, 2018 by Clanstarling

[Bryce Lynch]

30 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

The official ruling is probably accidental. But Howard feels guilty and knows how he devastated Chuck and essentially took away the single thing he lived for. He also knows how careful Chuck was, and that he had mental issues. Given the timing, for me it was pretty understandable that Howard would put those facts together and come to that conclusion. Jimmy and Kim also have their share of guilty knowledge which would lead them to believe Howard's conclusion.

I looked up Don Harvey on IMDB, and though I haven't seen him - he was a regular on The Deuce, The Last Tycoon, and General Hospital. But his eyes were certainly distinctive enough - I recognized him immediately.

I agree.  The authorities would probably assume it was accidental.  Funny, last season I was wondering if Chuck was trying to make it seem like Jimmy burned down the house and killed him. He had threatened to burn the house down in front of witnesses when he broke in to destroy the tape. 

But, now it seems that, to the extent Chuck was thinking about it at all, he was probably trying to make it look like an accident, rather than a suicide.  Kicking the table over and over, until the lantern finally fell over, leaves the appearance of an accident, much more than if he had set the fire in a more obviously intentional way.

I also agree that Howard would figure out that it was probably suicide.  I love how the characters know so much about one another and are able to figure such things out.  

Does Kim know that it was Jimmy who ratted out Chuck to the insurance company?  I am thinking she doesn't.  I wonder if she will find out and how she will react if she does.   That could really sour her on Jimmy.  

[ShadowFacts]

13 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Does Kim know that it was Jimmy who ratted out Chuck to the insurance company?  I am thinking she doesn't.  I wonder if she will find out and how she will react if she does.   That could really sour her on Jimmy.  

I don't know if we know, but I don't think it could surprise her in the least.  She was, after all, a co-conspirator in bringing down Chuck at Jimmy's bar hearing.  I think she felt bad about that, and would not like Jimmy further kicking Chuck when he was down.  She knows what he's capable of, what he did at the copy shop, how he got Huell to put a battery in Chuck's pocket, and it hasn't pushed her away yet, so it will be interesting to see what finally does.  We've seen her be a bit of a trickster herself, she has some tolerance for down and dirty tactics, so it will be interesting to see just what constitutes a bridge too far for her, if anything.  

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I don't know if we know, but I don't think it could surprise her in the least.  She was, after all, a co-conspirator in bringing down Chuck at Jimmy's bar hearing.  I think she felt bad about that, and would not like Jimmy further kicking Chuck when he was down.  She knows what he's capable of, what he did at the copy shop, how he got Huell to put a battery in Chuck's pocket, and it hasn't pushed her away yet, so it will be interesting to see what finally does.  We've seen her be a bit of a trickster herself, she has some tolerance for down and dirty tactics, so it will be interesting to see just what constitutes a bridge too far for her, if anything.  

But, she knows that Jimmy did the copy shop scam in a misguided effort to help her and stop HHM from "stealing" MV from her.  

As for the bar hearing and all the related stunts (don't forget her cancelling Chuck's door repair and Jimmy sending Mike instead), I think Kim felt they were doing that to defend Jimmy from being unfairly disbarred over a stupid sibling rivalry that got out of hand.  (though he did deserve to be disbarred for altering the MV documents).  Despite that she ended up feeling very guilty about destroying Chuck's reputation.  

But, ratting Chuck out to the insurance company was done purely to harm Chuck and HHM.  Jimmy wasn't defending himself with that and gained nothing from it.   It was gratuitously cruel and I think Kim would have a big problem with it.  

[wendyg]

"Cruel?" I think Jimmy just reasonably expected that the result would be the insurance company raising the premiums, which is what they did. So his action was vengeful, but all he thought it would cost Chuck and HHM was *money*, which they had plenty of. He did *not* foresee - and couldn't have - that this would be Howard's excuse to force Chuck out.

[NutmegsDad]

I'm going to say that, as we were waiting for a single, defining moment for Jimmy to "break bad" to turn into Saul, this episode did it over the course of a hour (minus commercials). Between Howard's obituary and the continuous line of mourners offering sympathy at the funeral service, Jimmy finally went into "fuck this Chuck was a fucking saint shit" mode, resulting in his cold response to Howard concerning the insurance.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, wendyg said:

"Cruel?" I think Jimmy just reasonably expected that the result would be the insurance company raising the premiums, which is what they did. So his action was vengeful, but all he thought it would cost Chuck and HHM was *money*, which they had plenty of. He did *not* foresee - and couldn't have - that this would be Howard's excuse to force Chuck out.

True.  My point was that he did is strictly to be mean to Chuck, who was already, pretty much a broken man.    It wasn't in any sort of self defense or to help a loved one, it was done strictly to cause harm for the pleasure of it.  Kim was OK with dirty tricks to fight dirty tricks (though she ended up feeling very guilty).  But I don't think she would be OK with dirty tricks to hurt a broken man, for the sake of hurting that broken man. 

Also, Whistlin' Jimmy's reaction when he found out that what he did led to Chuck's relapse and death seems to indicate that if he had foreseen the tragic ramifications  he would have done it anyway.  He seemed pleased that he helped cause Chuck's suicide.  

Edited August 9, 2018 by Bryce Lynch

[Ottis]

On 8/7/2018 at 3:41 PM, peeayebee said:

On 8/7/2018 at 6:14 AM, ghoulina said:

Final thought - anyone get Walter White vibes from the dude he stole the security badge from? (If this was already noted 45849 times, I apologize. I'm posting real quickly before I have to go.)

 

When we first see him, I was confused as to who he was. He looked and walked somewhat like Mike, but he sounded like Jimmy, at least to me. I assume Mike chose to steal HIS badge because of the resemblance.

I actually at first thought it was a time jump backwards, and that was a younger, skinnier Hank. Or that it was Hank and the actor had lost weight. I thought the time jump for quite a while in that scene.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, NutmegsDad said:

I'm going to say that, as we were waiting for a single, defining moment for Jimmy to "break bad" to turn into Saul, this episode did it over the course of a hour (minus commercials). Between Howard's obituary and the continuous line of mourners offering sympathy at the funeral service, Jimmy finally went into "fuck this Chuck was a fucking saint shit" mode, resulting in his cold response to Howard concerning the insurance.

That is a really interesting point about Jimmy's reaction to all the praise that Chuck received, in the obituary and at the service. 

It seems to me, that this was the first time Jimmy started resenting Chuck for his accomplishments and status.  In the past, he resented some of the things Chuck did, but he always seemed proud that his brother was such a prominent and respected lawyer.  

Chuck always resented Jimmy's status of being "precious Jimmy" who their parents could never imagine stealing, who their mother cried out for on her deathbed and the guy who could make a room of lawyers, or his wife, laugh.  It was the flaw that was most responsible for Chuck's downfall.

Now Jimmy has become like Chuck, resenting his brother because of how admired and respected he was.  

[ShadowFacts]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Now Jimmy has become like Chuck, resenting his brother because of how admired and respected he was.  

And Chuck became like Jimmy, deceiving and tricking him into a confession which he recorded.  They are two sides of the same coin.