S01.E08: Rad Fatties

[formerlyfreedom]

Riding high on her brush with fame, Plum's life has a new purpose; a date with an unlikely man threatens to topple it all.

[voiceover]

I'll have to rewatch the first ten minutes, because I'm not exactly sure where I came in, but one thing's for sure: when Plum mentioned Calliope House & Verbena (can't stop calling her that) by name, I was all, "Wow.  That was *fuckin' stupid*!!!"  

And it was so obviously stupid that I thought I must've missed something in the pre-credit sequence, with the women of the house telling her to reveal the name of the program.  But then came the meltdown, so I was all: "Nope. I was right.  Pretty...fuckin'...stupid."

[Accidental Martyr]

2 hours ago, voiceover said:

I'll have to rewatch the first ten minutes, because I'm not exactly sure where I came in, but one thing's for sure: when Plum mentioned Calliope House & Verbena (can't stop calling her that) by name, I was all, "Wow.  That was *fuckin' stupid*!!!"  

And it was so obviously stupid that I thought I must've missed something in the pre-credit sequence, with the women of the house telling her to reveal the name of the program.  But then came the meltdown, so I was all: "Nope. I was right.  Pretty...fuckin'...stupid."

Yeah, I didn’t find that very believable.

[BooBear]

I am not sure why I am watching anymore. Plumb is stupid and immature. I cannot believe she chose to go back to that creepy guy. Of all the guys? She must truly be desperate for affection. And then predictably she got assaulted.  I think, I was switching back and forth between shows at that point.  Really was it such a shock? You hated him from the start and he kept bugging you all day - can't take no for an answer. I have to say she has some responsibility there as there were warning signs.  Did I hear before the assault that Plumb said she had been abused by men? Huh? When?  She just can't be honest with herself about who bears responsibility for the problems in her life. I think she needs to go back on "Y". 

Ironically this show is turning me more toward the side of men. I found myself sympathizing with Stanley. What must it be like to be a relatively normal man? Even if you don't want to be a dog you probably are expected to do a few touching of the rumps or make some passes just to make sure people don't think your gay (especially in the fashion industry) and to be targeted in a such a way that your wife is afraid to have sex with you? Probably the punishment doesn't fit the crime.  

It is also unbelievable they can't find Jennifer. The FBI has methods that can get a real threat very quickly. And most serious dangers are caught quickly. The DC sniper, the Boston Marathon bombers. It is just a matter of the feds putting their full weight behind it. 

I will say Dominic did look good in the suit. 

This show had promise but has flatlined into an embarrassment for women. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I did not trust that guy at all, solely because he started contacting her to apologize after she got some media attention. That seemed entirely too coincidental and opportunistic. I was so suspicious of everything he did. At the bar, I thought he was just trying to get her drunk, possibly to get information out of her so he could sell it to a magazine. When he took her back to his place, I thought he had a hidden camera somewhere in the hopes of making a sex tape that he could sell.

Stanley keeps showing his true colors and more, from the way he grabbed Kitty last week to threaten her to pretty much everything he did this week: being a patronizing dick to Cheryl, making comments about her tits to Dominic, and lamenting that he can't even grab women's asses anymore. It's just the worst when women won't passively accept assault and battery!

[Butless]

19 hours ago, BooBear said:

I am not sure why I am watching anymore. Plumb is stupid and immature. I cannot believe she chose to go back to that creepy guy. Of all the guys? She must truly be desperate for affection. And then predictably she got assaulted.  I think, I was switching back and forth between shows at that point.  Really was it such a shock? You hated him from the start and he kept bugging you all day - can't take no for an answer. I have to say she has some responsibility there as there were warning signs.  Did I hear before the assault that Plumb said she had been abused by men? Huh? When?  She just can't be honest with herself about who bears responsibility for the problems in her life. I think she needs to go back on "Y". 

Ironically this show is turning me more toward the side of men. I found myself sympathizing with Stanley. What must it be like to be a relatively normal man? Even if you don't want to be a dog you probably are expected to do a few touching of the rumps or make some passes just to make sure people don't think your gay (especially in the fashion industry) and to be targeted in a such a way that your wife is afraid to have sex with you? Probably the punishment doesn't fit the crime.  

It is also unbelievable they can't find Jennifer. The FBI has methods that can get a real threat very quickly. And most serious dangers are caught quickly. The DC sniper, the Boston Marathon bombers. It is just a matter of the feds putting their full weight behind it. 

I will say Dominic did look good in the suit. 

This show had promise but has flatlined into an embarrassment for women. 

Um, no; it is not an embarrassment to women. But what is offensive, is you blaming a rape victim for her rape.

 

18 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I did not trust that guy at all, solely because he started contacting her to apologize after she got some media attention. That seemed entirely too coincidental and opportunistic. I was so suspicious of everything he did. At the bar, I thought he was just trying to get her drunk, possibly to get information out of her so he could sell it to a magazine. When he took her back to his place, I thought he had a hidden camera somewhere in the hopes of making a sex tape that he could sell.

Stanley keeps showing his true colors and more, from the way he grabbed Kitty last week to threaten her to pretty much everything he did this week: being a patronizing dick to Cheryl, making comments about her tits to Dominic, and lamenting that he can't even grab women's asses anymore. It's just the worst when women won't passively accept assault and battery!

That  feeder fetishist actor never stopped looking at her like a psychopath. He had flat eyes. Like "a doll's eyes."

That was truly awful to watch a vulnerable Plum put her trust in him  and start to entertain the possibility of love and desire for her, to start to enjoy her sexuality, ... and then he rapes her.  That is utterly shattering.

I like how the first scene with Stanley made him look like harmless, and we progressed to him crushing Kitty's hand, and on to this week, when it's obvious he's got some sexual assaults in his past that he wants  buried. I hope he's taken down with Kitty, at the end. Bet no one calls him "immature " for mocking the reporter.   I hate Stanley, but like Campbell Scott. He can stay around and impersonate the president til the end, when he gets his just desserts, I hope.

[JudyObscure]

35 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Plum's opening rant was so embarrassing. 

Yes, I was defending Plum last week but she turned a corner for me this time and is starting to make really thoughtless decisions and seems to have decided she's smarter and much more important than she actually is.  Are people really supposed to be shocked that a magazine editor doesn't write her own advice column?  Does Plum think the teens who ask her questions really care that much if it's her, Kitty or Dear Abby who answers?  They're teens!  It's all about them!

Then we had a repeat of that justification for killing people and the assertion that there's no social change without violence.  Have they never heard of Gandhi?  Martin Luther King Jr?  Jesus?

The whole Innie and Outie analogy was so dumb, I thought I was mishearing it every time it came up.

Blabbing about Calliope House was beyond stupid.

I'm glad there are only two more episodes.

I

[bookrat]

Who was the guy who raped Plum? 

[tennisgurl]

Plum might be a total moron, but she really did look lovely this episode. I like her hair pulled up, it shows her face more. No matter how much this show wants to make it seem like Plum is some kind of hideous female Jaba the Hut who is so ugly she makes random men want to attack her in horror, I just cant ever buy it. I can certainly buy people treating her like crap due to being overweight, but I just have this block on my brain that refuses to see her as ugly as she sees herself, or as the show seems to want me to see her as. At least, I think it does, its kind of hard to tell with this show whats satire, and whats just stupid writing. 

I still dont get why everyone wants Plum on their team, she is kind of immature and not the brightest bulb out there. Her talking about Calliope House was so dumb, I kind of thought at first she was doing this on their orders, but nope. Her whole speech at the start was just embarrassing, making broad generalizations about not just people, but about centuries of history and culture. It read like a nineteen year olds embarrassing Tumblr post that she will go on to delete in two years after finally taking that feminist theory class she kept putting off, not some amazing story that will make Plum internet famous. Also, what is she going on about how "every change happens because people are afraid!" stuff, like Jennifer is totally in the right to do all of this. Thats why MLK Jr kidnapped racist people and dropped them off buildings, and why John Brown ended slavery, and not that silly Emancipation Proclamation, and why the most successful revolution of all time was the one with all the heads coming off! Hey, if Plum can make broad sweeping generalization about history to make a point, so can I! 

Sadly, I figured it was inevitable that Plum would get raped. As soon as she returned the call from the creepy fat fetish guy, I knew it was coming, it was like watching a dead eyed train wreck in slow motion. So, now, this show better follow up on this in a way that justifies this beyond "dont forget that men and sex are evil, and overweight women cant possibly dream of having a real romantic life!" and actually spends some time dealing on this horrible violation. They better not just move the fuck on to more of me trying to figure out what this shows deal is. 

Edited July 17, 2018 by tennisgurl

[Lunula]

I must admit, I am a bit taken aback at the attitudes towards Plum at the moment. I think the point (at least one of them) is that she is immature/stunted about certain things in life (like pretty much everyone on the planet about something). She has no idea why any man would find her attractive/be interested in her and so she trusted the wrong guy. Age is irrelevant when you've felt unlovable, ugly, fat, etc. your entire life. Smart? No - of course not - but realistic? Yes, I'm afraid so. 

And yeah, her rant at the beginning was just that - a rant. She's finally starting to feel a little powerful, a little confident, a little normal. She feels marginalized, right or wrong, by men. Again, I see an intelligent woman who has felt silenced because of how she looks for so long that she's become accustomed to being quiet, not having an opinion - basically, being invisible. For the first time, she is starting to feel free from all that bullshit - but clearly feels the bullshit came directly from men. 

I fear she'll only go further down that path after the assault.

I'm also not embarrassed at all by her rant - I'm embarrassed that anyone in 2018 still blames the woman for getting herself raped instead of putting 100 fucking percent of the blame where it belongs - on the assailant. 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Lunula

[BooBear]

2 hours ago, Lunula said:

 She has no idea why any man would find her attractive/be interested in her and so she trusted the wrong guy.

I would be willing to cut Plumb a break if she hadn't already on this show sized up the fat fetish guy and determined he was a freak that she didn't want to be around. He literally was forcing her to eat for HIS pleasure two episodes ago. Why would she change her mind then?  He started being a pest calling her every ten seconds. Yeh that says respect and bounderies.  Perhaps she rebounded to him because Dominic started talking to his kid but frankly none of this seems to make logical sense within this show. Plumb was smarter than that just a few episodes ago.

To be clear the blame is on the guy.  But Plumb is not a character I care to watch who would be so foolish and immature to act this way. I feel a little like a bait and switch and the Plumb of episodes 1-4 was smart and was someone I could relate to. But now she isn't. The character is someone I actively dislike and don't care to watch her spiral. I remember thinking her mom was babying her. Little did I know Plumb needs every bit of her mom's guardianship.

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Sadly, I figured it was inevitable that Plum would get raped. As soon as she returned the call from the creepy fat fetish guy, I knew it was coming, it was like watching a dead eyed train wreck in slow motion. So, now, this show better follow up on this in a way that justifies this beyond "dont forget that men and sex are evil, and overweight women cant possibly dream of having a real romantic life!" and actually spends some time dealing on this horrible violation. They better not just move the fuck on to more of me trying to figure out what this shows deal is. 

There are only two episodes left. I find it hard to believe they will pull any brilliance out of this lame rant. What a waste. I looked forward to a strong take on being a large woman with a large actor. The first 15 minutes of the first episode was breathtaking. No wonder they offered that free on demand.  

[bobbyjoe]

There are shows that I could trust to deal movingly, smartly, and insightfully with a sexual assault or rape.

This isn’t one of those shows.

Using a rape to help stack the deck in this convuluted storyline feels like crass exploitation.  If it wasn’t for this board where eveybody often has interesting things to say about this absolute mess of a show, and if there weren’t just two episodes left (and probably the last episodes ever), I’d be done.

[Ottis]

This has gone from mildly interesting to a howler. Mr. Big Shot goes from some reasonable points about the unfairness of punishing men for past behaviors with no context to being a complete tool who can’t believe he can’t pat a woman’s ass at work, in 60 seconds. I was almost crying at the ridiculousness. 

Meanwhile, Plum is all over the place. First she provides a history of blame for male behavior through the ages, then she says in an interview that she is for peaceful resistance. Ok, well, keep this up and you’ll fit the image you hate of a crazy woman. 

And announcing Calliope House in an interview? That was thoughtless and basic media relations 101. I’m just a dumb man and I cringed as soon as she said it in the interview. 

Interesting that this is the second ep in a row where the characters reference not comparing experiences. 

The sisters and their power are interesting. Not sure I follow it but I enjoy the mystery. 

[Miles]

"The outy blah, the outy blub, outy, outy, outy. Until somebody invents machines".

I wonder who those somebodies were. Lovely how it's all outy, until it's something positve, then it's "somebody".

So the episode started horribly and then it ended worse. I'll probably finish this season, but I don't think I'll be back for the next. If there even is one.

 

15 hours ago, Buttless said:

Um, no; it is not an embarrassment to women. But what is offensive, is you blaming a rape victim for her rape.

Talking about how somebody might have prevented a bad thing that happened to them is not blaming the victim for the bad thing. The blame still lies with the perp.

If I told you not to go to a secluded place or his flat with this shady guy or you going to get robbed or worse, is that victim blaming or just good advice? What if I told that to a man?

Since we are talking about what Plum should have done. She should have bodychecked him into the ground. That skinny bitch had nothing on her.

 

7 hours ago, Lunula said:

I'm also not embarrassed at all by her rant - I'm embarrassed that anyone in 2018 still blames the woman for getting herself raped instead of putting 100 fucking percent of the blame where it belongs - on the assailant. 

Life is not a pony farm. We all should be save all of the time. But we aren't. So we have to take precautions. If you get mugged, the mugger is the guilty party, 100%. But maybe you shouldn't have walked through that dark alley, in a bad part of town, fanning yourself with $100 bills.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Miles

[leto]

I really wanted to like this show, but the writing and character development leaves much to be desired. I do understand why Plum is bugging so many at the moment. I started off really liking her, but the 180 degree personality shift in Plum overnight and her stupid decisions (like putting Calliope House on blast, calling creepy fat fetish guy) are very off putting. The only explanation in the show is that Plum got the equivalent of Instagram famous for 8 seconds, which suddenly makes her obnoxiously stupid and inconsiderate, after 30+ years of being cautious, calculating, and guarded. I don't buy it. Plum's actions seem more about driving the plot forward, rather than actually true to the character and a real evolution. It was so blatantly obvious that something bad was going to happen with creepy fetish guy in order to turn Plum guerilla enough for Jennifer recruitment by the next episode. Unfortunately, the show went there and decided to use rape, which really stinks.

[Former Nun]

Buh-bye!   I tried, I really did, but I'm outta here.   Well, maybe not "here."  I might check in, but I'm not gonna watch one more episode--even though the opening credits are masterful.

[SunnyBeBe]

3 hours ago, Former Nun said:

Buh-bye!   I tried, I really did, but I'm outta here.   Well, maybe not "here."  I might check in, but I'm not gonna watch one more episode--even though the opening credits are masterful.

Please still come by here though!  I'm still going to try to tough it out.  I'm not sure that I should.  I feel like I watched a different episode than most, as I didn't see what most seem to have seen in this episode.  I've watched portions of it twice and .........IDK.  

[txhorns79]

Quote

I would be willing to cut Plumb a break if she hadn't already on this show sized up the fat fetish guy and determined he was a freak that she didn't want to be around. He literally was forcing her to eat for HIS pleasure two episodes ago. Why would she change her mind then?  He started being a pest calling her every ten seconds. Yeh that says respect and boundaries. 

I agree.  Plum is not to blame for the rape, full stop.  Her rapist is 100% responsible.  Having said that, it makes no sense that she would go back to this guy, after he's already shown her that he doesn't care about her boundaries and was only with her because of his fetish.

I'm honestly much more interested in Julia's storyline.  She seems like one tough woman. 

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

Having said that, it makes no sense that she would go back to this guy, after he's already shown her that he doesn't care about her boundaries and was only with her because of his fetish.

Not to mention she told him she didn't find him attractive and thought his face was a four (or something.)  I've been in places where I ignored red flags and gave the guy an undeserved benefit of the doubt -- because he was really, really handsome and I wasn't thinking with a clear head. But that wasn't the case here.

 

18 hours ago, Miles said:

Life is not a pony farm. We all should be safe all of the time. But we aren't. So we have to take precautions.

I agree with this so much and I hate that the whole false, victim blaming thing of, "She wore a short skirt, she was asking for it," has made us afraid to talk about rape prevention for fear of being lumped in with those jerks. 

If my (hypothetical) daughter got raped I'd be furious with anyone who tried to make it sound like it was her fault after the fact, but my first choice would always be that she not be raped at all. So I'd be telling her; don't go clubbing alone, don't go to frat parties at all, don't get so drunk you don't know what you're doing, every first date should be dinner/and or a movie so you can get to know the guy a little bit before you ever let him step inside your apartment. 

If he tries to rape you from behind with his fingers in your mouth, stand up straight, step back on his foot,  and bite his damn fingers hard.

[atlantaloves]

Oh man, that was really bad I'll finish this shit fest I guess, but I kinda agree, Plum is beyond stupid.  God, this program could have been good. It's just nasty. 

[bioprof]

Drop Dead Diva handled the whole body issue topic so much better and was entertaining to boot....not like this train wreck...

[Former Nun]

9 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Does Unapologetic really only have 83,000 viewers?

Does Unapologetic have 83,000 viewers, really?

[tennisgurl]

I wish we could have explored Plum maybe trying to date an overweight man, or going to a dating site or mixer for people who are overweight (which I am told exists), and seeing the issues surrounding that, and what that meant for Plum. I mean, obviously overweight people shouldn't have to only date each other, but since she has been treated as so undateable by the show and by herself, and we only see her interested in guys that are in pretty good shape, what would that be like? Would she realize that overweight men are only interested in skinny women? Would she realize she had her own issues with dating an overweight person? Would he not support her wanting the surgery? Would they explore the double standards when it comes to overweight men and women? Or would Plum actually meet a herto man who wasn't a total piece of shit or investigating her for possible terrorist ties, and would get a self esteem boost, and we could see that overweight people can be happy and have healthy sex lives as well as dealing with society's nastiness towards fat women? 

Or we could just throw in a disgusting, crass rape scene with two episodes left to deal with the fall out. Whatever. 

[BooBear]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Not to mention she told him she didn't find him attractive and thought his face was a four (or something.)  I've been in places where I ignored red flags and gave the guy an undeserved benefit of the doubt -- because he was really, really handsome and I wasn't thinking with a clear head. But that wasn't the case here.

It would have been devastating if Dominic raped her. Not only because she really liked him and he came off as a kind guy but also because he was a former cop. 

I see this show having three problems: (1) the show's internal logic is faulty; (2) it is disingenuous due to lack of creativity; and (3) crucial information is withheld far too long.  

With regard to logic.. it seems to have a lot of "huh" moments. For instance... the idea that Jennifer would be interested in Plumb over Kitty Montgomery is not logical. The idea that Plumb starts out believing that all her troubles would go away if she got the surgery and was thin and then she gets treated badly while fat - and that is is not further reinforcement of her core beliefs -- is not logical.  The idea that Plumb is nieve' does not mesh with the woman we are introduced to at the start who lives and works in New York freaking city and has a job with a glamorous magazine there. Additionally when Plumb meets Dominic she correctly sizes him up as being nice to her trying to get something from her and not really interested. See savvy New Yorker. 

With regard with its disingenuousness it often needs Plumb to be in places and expects the audience to buy things that everyone knows wouldn't happen. Further this was a story about a large woman and her problems but since about episode 4 it has become about rape. Of course, because the idea that a woman would turn to killing is kind of not credible in the first place but the only thing that could do it would be rape. They needed to turn Plumb to the dark side and were not creative enough to do it with a story about how society treats large women so.. rape.

With two episodes left I don't feel like I have crucial information. I don't know why Dominic is no longer on the force so I am not really sure if he is a good or bad guy. I don't know what Julia is and I don't know if she is a good or bad guy. Where did Plumb's mom go? Why isn't Plumb living at home? What exactly does Jennifer want? Surely they have a plan not to get caught?  We don't know why Jennifer or even Verbena was interested in Plumb. 

5 hours ago, 17wheatthins said:

I think Plum went to his place because she was hopeful that maybe he wasn’t a creep bastard. Remember she has zero experience with men

If she just got off the turnip truck from Nebraska in the first episode, maybe. But in the first episode she got hassled on the street... and was set up as a single resident of New York. Along with the modern internet and the horrors splashed across the news every day I find it hard to believe anyone could be "that nieve" unless they were established as "special". You don't have to have sex with men to have experience with them.  The writers had to turn Plumb suddenly nieve' so she could get raped because they had to get her to the point where she would want to join Jennifer.

Edited July 18, 2018 by BooBear

[mytmo]

Not sure what I'm more shocked by the rape or the Plum hate.  People forget she has no clue on how to deal with men.  Remember her friend said she is stuck in a 14 yr old mentality when it comes to the opposite sex.  She (like everyone else) wants someone that desires her and although feeder fetish guy; that she was not even attracted to; was the only guy in her mind that showed any desire towards her.  She thought in her stunted adolescent mind that she was now empowered and could handle him.  During the rape I was yelling at the TV for her to bite his fingers off but when you looked at her vacant face she was checked out.  Sure we can all be arm chair quarterbacks and say she should or shouldn't have done this or that but remember this girl is emotionally 14.  Even so No Means No.  I thought the world understood that.  

[BooBear]

14 minutes ago, mytmo said:

Not sure what I'm more shocked by the rape or the Plum hate.  People forget she has no clue on how to deal with men.  Remember her friend said she is stuck in a 14 yr old mentality when it comes to the opposite sex.  She (like everyone else) wants someone that desires her and although feeder fetish guy; that she was not even attracted to; was the only guy in her mind that showed any desire towards her.  She thought in her stunted adolescent mind that she was now empowered and could handle him.  

I believe Plumb was the advice column for Daisy Chain. Apparently with her 14 year old mentality she both gave out wise wisdom to girls who were dealing with these exact scenarios.... rape and body image, but also would have been in a position to see how it *really* is for them.  A unique position to see and hear about the very worst that can happen to those who are nieve. 

What show were you guys watching where she ever once came across as nieve. She came across except for very recently as jaded. 

[mytmo]

48 minutes ago, BooBear said:

I believe Plumb was the advice column for Daisy Chain. Apparently with her 14 year old mentality she both gave out wise wisdom to girls who were dealing with these exact scenarios.... rape and body image, but also would have been in a position to see how it *really* is for them.  A unique position to see and hear about the very worst that can happen to those who are nieve. 

What show were you guys watching where she ever once came across as nieve. She came across except for very recently as jaded. 

This is classic Physician Heal Thyself.  She can write advice from a safe removed distance.  She has no clue when it involves her.  I see her more as immature and had no business dispensing advice.

Edited July 19, 2018 by mytmo
Trouble with advise vs advice

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, mytmo said:

Not sure what I'm more shocked by the rape or the Plum hate.  People forget she has no clue on how to deal with men.  Remember her friend said she is stuck in a 14 yr old mentality when it comes to the opposite sex.  She (like everyone else) wants someone that desires her and although feeder fetish guy; that she was not even attracted to; was the only guy in her mind that showed any desire towards her.  She thought in her stunted adolescent mind that she was now empowered and could handle him.  During the rape I was yelling at the TV for her to bite his fingers off but when you looked at her vacant face she was checked out.  Sure we can all be arm chair quarterbacks and say she should or shouldn't have done this or that but remember this girl is emotionally 14.  Even so No Means No.  I thought the world understood that.  

There's an estimated over 300,000 cases of rape and sexual assault each year in the United State, so I guess the whole  world doesn't understand that no means no.   That's why we can't expect to just say those words and be safe.  That's the way it should be, but it's not the way it is.

 I haven't heard anyone here say they hate Plum, I think we're disappointed and we wish she had done  a better job of protecting herself.  Her friend may have said she was mentally 14, but that really isn't true, she's lived much more than the average 14 year old. She lives alone in a big city, she's a well educated adult woman with a good job who, because of that job, has heard more stories of sexual assault than most people and had plenty of time to ask herself what to do in different situations. 

[juliet73]

I agree with some of the other posters ... I'm not watching Season 2 if there is one.  This show had a lot of potential and it went downhill after the second or third episode.  I feel like I'm watching 3 different shows.  Plum, Jennifer and Kitty.  At this point, I would think they would be a bit more intertwined with each other.  We have no backstory on Dominic or Julia.  I don't even care anymore because there's only two episodes left and I'm done.  

I don't understand why Plum would give that creep the time of day, left alone meet him for drinks and then go back to his house.  I'm not blaming her for being raped, however, I am disappointed that she just kind of checked out.  She was in the more "advantaged" position and could have/should have tried to fight back.  

I think Julianne Margulies is totally miscast as Kitty.  I haven't seen Campbell Scott in years ... he looks so old :( 

Edited July 19, 2018 by juliet73

[Madding crowd]

I'm disappointed with the show as well but we have to keep in mind the show is supposed to be a satire and the characters archetypes. Plum and the women of Calliope house represent woman treated poorly by society (fat, scarred, transgender). Plum taking the "Y" medication is supposed to represent all of the women who are medicated by the health industry rather than listened to. Kitty represents modern media which calls for unrealistic standards, Stanley represents all of the rich businessmen who think women are theirs for the taking. 

I am really annoyed that they included the rape. Not only does it mean Plum is taking a step back but it's telling all women out theire that might want to take a chance-don't bother you will just get raped. As for Plum daring to desire a thin man-first off she didn't seek out this man. Verena set her up the date. She has never said she wouldn't date someone fat-she was in a place of not dating or seeking to date at all. It is telling to me however, by how many people are suggesting some variation on who does she think she is to date a thin man? She should only date a fat man! Anyone is free to date anyone who wants to date them back. This kind of prejudice should be what the show is all about, but it is too muddled with the Jennifer's and even with characters like Dominic, who we don't really know and who has no purpose (as of yet). 

[Tvaddict2018]

Ok, so call me stupid or naive or whatever, but until I read this forum, I did not think Plum was raped. Assaulted yes—-I saw the scene as creepy fetish guy basically jumping or grinding up against her until he got off.... of I didn’t quickly delete this off my DVR I would go back and double check but was there any zipping up of pants? 

 

Regardless, she was horribly violated and it should not have happened. But her friend insinuated she is/was a virgin so...I don’t know, if there was actual penetration I guess I expected more reaction? Crying out? 

I won’t get too into it because I know there is a thread for the book, but yeah, found the book so much better than this version of the story. Plum in the last two episodes has come off as a spoiled teenager rather than a smart, educated twenty something who has been living in NYC on her own for a bit. And as someone who isn’t a size 2, I know the world is a cruel place when you don’t fit the mold. But considering such a high % of the US is overweight if not outright obese, I find the scenes of random strangers treating her like garbage just because of her weight do not ring true. But maybe that’s is part of it—-are we seeing this from Plum’s twisted perspective? Her new clothing style in the past two episodes would be enough to get a double take from me—-as someone else wrote she looked like she stepped out of a 1980s Lauper  video.

 

hopefully they wrap this up in just one season...

[BooBear]

1 hour ago, Tvaddict2018 said:

Ok, so call me stupid or naive or whatever, but until I read this forum, I did not think Plum was raped. Assaulted yes—-I saw the scene as creepy fetish guy basically jumping or grinding up against her until he got off.... of I didn’t quickly delete this off my DVR I would go back and double check but was there any zipping up of pants? 

Ok good.. I thought I had missed it due to the flipping back and forth between channels.  

Quote

Absolutely! I agree with this 100%. Oftentimes people overeat as a form of self medication, not unlike using drugs or alcohol.

Hey now... stop with the stereotypes and pathologizing. There are a zillion reasons. I am overweight and I have nothing in my background that would cause self medication. For me it is purely a physical issue.  I just don't have a efficient body that burns off a lot of calories - in a world where there is a crazy excess of calories at every turn.  At first I thought this show was going to explore something like that and have Plumb realize that even the surgery might not give her the body she wanted because for some people they don't get all the way to thin, just no longer morbidly obese.

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

she should be able to look past the size of overweight men and date them too.  She can't be upset if men won't date her, because of her weight, if she is unwilling to date them because of their weight.

I am going to have to say facts not in evidence on this line. We really just don't know if Plumb would date a large guy. At the moment there are none in her sphere. I think that is totally believable in NYC and also working for a fashion magazine.  Large guys aren't just waiting around for large women - in my experience they are far more likely to attempt a regular weight woman and have success than the other way around. 

[Miles]

22 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

There's an estimated over 300,000 cases of rape and sexual assault each year in the United State

Yes, because somebody whisteling at you is classified sexual assault in those studies.

[JudyObscure]

9 minutes ago, Miles said:

Yes, because somebody whisteling at you is classified sexual assault in those studies.

Wow,  I didn't know that.  I do hate how vague the definition of sexual assault has become.

 

23 minutes ago, BooBear said:

 I just don't have a efficient body that burns off a lot of calories - in a world where there is a crazy excess of calories at every turn.  At first I thought this show was going to explore something like that and have Plumb realize that even the surgery might not give her the body she wanted because for some people they don't get all the way to thin, just no longer morbidly obese.

  I had hoped the show would spend more time going into the science of obesity, too.  Some people do gain weight following trauma, but Gary Taube,  in his books and videos, shows us so many other reasons why we might be unable to lose weight. In one example an  entire Native American village went from thin to obese over a short period of time just from a change in diet from high protein to high carb.  There has to be a reason that the obesity rate continues to rise even though we get far more regular exercise now than most people did in the sixties and seventies.  My parents and all their brothers and sisters (born in 1915 and shortly after) were thin all their lives and they had sweets, ice cream, and all sorts of desserts in the house constantly. The big bowl of pie smothered in ice cream in front of the evening TV shows was like a fourth meal they neve missed.   Some of them are still alive in their nineties.  None of them would have dreamed of walking when they could take the car and things like jogging or gym membership just made them laugh. 

We don't question why Plum is obese and her mother is thin, because we are so used to seeing the younger generation outweigh their parents.  We should be asking those questions instead of making people feel bad for not being able to stick to low calorie regimes for years making permanent low grade hunger a "lifestyle."

[Miles]

11 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Wow,  I didn't know that.  I do hate how vague the definition of sexual assault has become.

Sexual harrasment is included and whistling at someboy in a sexual way is sexual harrasment. :/

I tried to find actual numbers for rape and/or severe sexual assault. But I was having no luck. It's always "rape and sexual assault". A longer search could probably yield results, but I'm really not feeling like digging into the topic.

The obfuscation is probably because all those organisations, who fund these studies and lobby for the definitions, live in constant fear of getting their funding cut, should it become clear how much lower the numbers actually are. After a while most organisations that started to make society better mutate into a machine of self preservation that actually hurts society. It's kinda sad.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Miles

[knitta please]

Wow.

I can not believe the vast amount of victim blaming here. It is truly disappointing and frankly, heartbreaking.

I don't "enjoy" that Plum is making decisions that aren't perfectly in line with the viewer, but, it falls in line with variable human nature. To expect we be presented with a woman who has felt an outlier for her lifetime to suddenly know how to better manage sexual attention is asinine. This is real. It is uncomfortable, rife with questions, and, given the commentary, exactly why victims struggle with reporting.

Frankly, I can say from personal experience, the sexual assault depicted was quite factual.

If you feel the need to blame Plum for responding to attention and being in his home, you need to look at consent and what that means.

[film noire]

On 7/17/2018 at 1:58 PM, Lunula said:

 I'm embarrassed that anyone in 2018 still blames the woman for getting herself raped instead of putting 100 fucking percent of the blame where it belongs - on the assailant. 

Agreed.

On 7/18/2018 at 2:21 PM, 17wheatthins said:

I don’t fault her for this one bit. 

Agreed.

On 7/18/2018 at 7:27 PM, mytmo said:

Not sure what I'm more shocked by the rape or the Plum hate.   

Agreed.

9 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Wow,  I didn't know that. 

Some college campuses (and workplaces) now include wolf whistling/gestures/obscene comments (like "suck my dick, bitch") as harassment, but the Department of Justice does not consider "whistling" assault, and those are the stats most reliably cited (and per the Dep of J, the low estimate of women raped every year in the US is 300 K).  More facts here: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/50-facts-rape_b_2019338.html

And here (this website has footnote/links to articles defining harassment on college campuses); https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics

4 hours ago, knitta please said:

Wow.

I can not believe the vast amount of victim blaming here. It is truly disappointing and frankly, heartbreaking.

I don't "enjoy" that Plum is making decisions that aren't perfectly in line with the viewer, but, it falls in line with variable human nature. To expect we be presented with a woman who has felt an outlier for her lifetime to suddenly know how to better manage sexual attention is asinine. This is real. It is uncomfortable, rife with questions, and, given the commentary, exactly why victims struggle with reporting.

Frankly, I can say from personal experience, the sexual assault depicted was quite factual.

If you feel the need to blame Plum for responding to attention and being in his home, you need to look at consent and what that means.

Smart, incisive post -- thank you.

Edited July 20, 2018 by film noire

[msrachelj]

why did the show have a disclaimer (spoiler!) that something like "this program contains a sexual assault ......" why did they need to do that? are we going to be coddled and warned of every bad thing that happens on tv shows now? not to mention that it came on about 3 minutes before the end of the show when plum was raped so no surprises there.

does every cop show have disclaimers about rape, murder, child abuse etc. fucking crazy. are we adults or not? children shouldn't be watching this show if that's what they were going after. i don't get it. 

[SunnyBeBe]

15 hours ago, Tvaddict2018 said:

Ok, so call me stupid or naive or whatever, but until I read this forum, I did not think Plum was raped. Assaulted yes—-I saw the scene as creepy fetish guy basically jumping or grinding up against her until he got off.... of I didn’t quickly delete this off my DVR I would go back and double check but was there any zipping up of pants? 

 

Regardless, she was horribly violated and it should not have happened. But her friend insinuated she is/was a virgin so...I don’t know, if there was actual penetration I guess I expected more reaction? Crying out? 

I won’t get too into it because I know there is a thread for the book, but yeah, found the book so much better than this version of the story. Plum in the last two episodes has come off as a spoiled teenager rather than a smart, educated twenty something who has been living in NYC on her own for a bit. And as someone who isn’t a size 2, I know the world is a cruel place when you don’t fit the mold. But considering such a high % of the US is overweight if not outright obese, I find the scenes of random strangers treating her like garbage just because of her weight do not ring true. But maybe that’s is part of it—-are we seeing this from Plum’s twisted perspective? Her new clothing style in the past two episodes would be enough to get a double take from me—-as someone else wrote she looked like she stepped out of a 1980s Lauper  video.

 

hopefully they wrap this up in just one season...

I wondered the same thing.  How would it possible for that man, using one hand, take down the tights, ready himself and rape?  I know that the Advisory said that, so, I assume that they know and so that's why everyone is assuming rape, but, we haven't been told that yet. I'll wait to hear what Plum has to say about it. After all, it's what she says that matters. 

Still, it's such an odd show.  And not in a good way.  Are we allowed to speculate on this thread?

[msrachelj]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I wondered the same thing.  How would it possible for that man, using one hand, take down the tights, ready himself and rape?  I know that the Advisory said that, so, I assume that they know and so that's why everyone is assuming rape, but, we haven't been told that yet. I'll wait to hear what Plum has to say about it. After all, it's what she says that matters. 

Still, it's such an odd show.  And not in a good way.  Are we allowed to speculate on this thread?

i was confused also.  if she was a virgin!, this looked way too easy and quick, if you all remember way back when, ladies.. where were the painful grimaces?! also confused because she was saying no, then kissing him passionately , saying no, kissing. he was being a creep for sure and everyone is different but wouldn't she have cried or screamed or tried to fight him off. the whole thing was terrible done. i hope this show is cancelled..i'm only watching because i've already invested time into it. so poorly written .

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, msrachelj said:

i was confused also.  if she was a virgin!, this looked way too easy and quick, if you all remember way back when, ladies.. where were the painful grimaces?! also confused because she was saying no, then kissing him passionately , saying no, kissing. he was being a creep for sure and everyone is different but wouldn't she have cried or screamed or tried to fight him off. the whole thing was terrible done. i hope this show is cancelled..i'm only watching because i've already invested time into it. so poorly written .

Yeah, it was odd. It was hard to tell what was actually happening.  I do look forward to see what Plum says about it and what actually transpired. 

I have not read the book nor do I intend to now. And I haven't heard any spoilers either.  But, I do have a theory that I would like to speculate about.  I'm not sure if that's allowed on this thread, so, I'll put it in spoilers caps just to be on the safe side.

Spoiler

Is it possible that Plum is still either dreaming, hallucinating or that the events we are seeing are part of piece she is writing for the magazine....so none of it is real....it's just a figment of her imagination and that's why it's so disjointed and nonsensical. 

[Ottis]

13 hours ago, film noire said:

Some college campuses (and workplaces) now include wolf whistling/gestures/obscene comments (like "suck my dick, bitch") as harassment, but the Department of Justice does not consider "whistling" assault, and those are the stats most reliably cited (and per the Dep of J, the low estimate of women raped every year in the US is 300 K).  More facts here: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/50-facts-rape_b_2019338.html

The problem with all of these reports is that it greatly depends on the exact way the statistic is defined and what is asked of the respondents. Many of these groups gain from higher numbers:

https://newrepublic.com/article/119364/cdcs-report-one-five-women-raped-other-statistics-disagree

 

That NYC site includes prison rapes, which may also mean this:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/feb/21/us-more-men-raped-than-women

Rape is never OK, men or women. It's notoriously hard to quantify.

All that said, even if I don't fault naive Plum for returning to a guy she rated a 4 and who she ran away from before, it's hard to believe she didn't do *something* in response to his attack. I had to rewind because I thought she was drugged at first, but I don't think she was. And yes, I know that victims can zone out as a defense mechanism. Others fight back. Plum's ping-pong between woke and angry and victim is confusing. 

[BooBear]

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

All that said, even if I don't fault naive Plum for returning to a guy she rated a 4 and who she ran away from before, it's hard to believe she didn't do *something* in response to his attack. I had to rewind because I thought she was drugged at first, but I don't think she was. And yes, I know that victims can zone out as a defense mechanism. Others fight back. Plum's ping-pong between woke and angry and victim is confusing. 

Typically I am ok with a poor "rape" scene on network television because I understand it is hard to film and get across what happened with in the confines of network tv. But admittedly this was very confusing and if not for the "warning" I seriously might not know that anything happened. It is puzzling that she had a good 150 lbs on him but didn't seem to realize that fact or use even a body check.  He also seemed in the more vulnerable position whereas Plumb under him or something on the couch could have put her at a disadvantage. 

Regarding the speculation from above... I think on the one hand I would be happy if that was the case. It might mean the writing wasn't horrible and everyone could be salvaged. But on the other hand I would feel like I had my time wasted. 

Quote

This show is so poorly written, the viewers have to draw their own conclusions concerning any number of character issues.

Absolutely.  I think this show fails on all levels.  I feel like episodes 1-4 were good but then it all went down hill fast. Like maybe they let new people take over.

[Iguessnot]

15 hours ago, msrachelj said:

why did the show have a disclaimer (spoiler!) that something like "this program contains a sexual assault ......" why did they need to do that? are we going to be coddled and warned of every bad thing that happens on tv shows now? not to mention that it came on about 3 minutes before the end of the show when plum was raped so no surprises there.

does every cop show have disclaimers about rape, murder, child abuse etc. fucking crazy. are we adults or not? children shouldn't be watching this show if that's what they were going after. i don't get it. 

I'm going to call it the suburban helicopter mom syndrome infecting the mainstream. I'm a woman but I've got a problem when women's influence in media, politics, business leans so heavily to an overbearing mom baby talking a toddler. Did we get a disclaimer when Plum was knocked flat and laid out vulnerable on the streets of New York?

Plum is becoming more unbearable every episode. She's like this kid cartoon called Clarence. I HATE the character. He's stupid and causes misery for all those around him.

Well, due to her "empowering" fashion choices, Plum really looked like a freaking plum walking down the street.

[Iguessnot]

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

 

Plum didn't deserve to get punched, but she did escalate the situation which resulted in her getting punched.  It wasn't as though she was walking down the street and out of the blue someone decked her.

Plum is emotionally constipated.  Most people when things go sour in their lives, they just let it flow down stream and not allow it to affect them.  Plum is all dammed up.   If she could get to the root causes of her problems, she would be fine.  That is yet another reason why I keep bitching about the lack of flashback episodes into Plum's childhood.  She is like a child who has been tormented so badly over a prolonged period of time that she had become stuck in "flight" mode.  Now as an adult, she is trying to "fight" back and the results are all sorts of horrible.

Above and beyond that,  Verena treating Plum as nothing more than a lab experiment isn't helping any.

 

Given Plum's size, her options are limited.

 

ETA:  I like the Steven character a lot.  I think they should have built the series around him instead of Plum.  Of course the title of the series would have to change.

 

Plum did escalate that fight. But that was a more jarring and violent assault. As for this last one, barring that disclaimer, I thought he released himself inside his jeans. Her skirt was not pulled up and her leggings were on. She's a big girl, chambers aren't instant access. Lastly it ended with him saying he loved her fat ass. So now I'm wondered if she was mostly upset because she felt insulted. And why in the midst of the Jennifer saga, Plum's recent fame which aligns her a bit with the Jennifers and new directives for women not to have sex with certain men, would this dude go after Plum like that? When did he express a death wish? 

I know Plum's big, but she's looking like a Fruit of the Loom mascot in that short animal print coat and colored leggings. 

Edited July 21, 2018 by Iguessnot

[Madding crowd]

I think Plum is a beautiful woman and I love her animal print coat. People of all sizes can wear fashion.

[Iguessnot]

On 7/21/2018 at 10:55 AM, 17wheatthins said:

Agree. And no one should be made to feel like they *shouldn't* wear something just because they're bigger or smaller than the "norm". Some people love to wear a lot of color. Some people love to be monochromatic. Some people are very daring with their style choices. Some are more classic or mainstream. Size should have nothing to do with it whatsoever. 

My criticism of Plum's clothing isn't based on "norm". I honestly think she looks a hot mess. I initially compared her to Cyndi Lauper because that style was also a hot mess. Nothing to do with size. A person can be classic, mainstream or daring no matter the size. However if your belly is laying on your thighs, wearing a skin tight dress just ain't cute. The issue seems to have gone from learning to accept people and combating size discrimination to the emperor has no clothes syndrome.

On 7/21/2018 at 11:44 AM, icemiser69 said:

I don't think that dude loves overweight women.  I think that dude loves to humiliate overweight women.  I just don't think he can help himself.  That doesn't make him any less responsible. 

Obviously something is wrong with him. I didn't re-watch the earlier episode, but did their date consist of more than eating at the food trucks? This show has no nuance. Just stereotypical global anvils. Maybe Plum doesn't date chubby men because that would be a fetish on her part. 

Is this show going to explore Verbena's two husbands, one of whom seems to be an emasculated Stepford husband who exists only to serve tea and crumpets?

Edited July 25, 2018 by Iguessnot

[BooBear]

9 minutes ago, Iguessnot said:

My criticism of Plum's clothing isn't based on "norm". I honestly think she looks a hot mess. I initially compared her to Cyndi Lauper because that style was also a hot mess. Nothing to do with size. A person can be classic, mainstream or daring no matter the size. However if your belly is laying on your thighs, wearing a skin tight dress just ain't cute. The issue seems to have gone from learning to accept people and combating size discrimination to the emperor has no clothes syndrome.

Agreed. She looks bad lately especially since I think she looked great in the first few episodes.  But, I was under the impression that she chose that look based on the woman we saw at her Waste Watchers meeting in the first episode who was very vocal and outspoken. So I believe her dress was supposed to be a statement -- the only problem is that no one else probably gets it.  It is possible that has part of the statement she wanted to look "ugly" as sort of an in your face thing. 

[Madding crowd]

Love your post Wheatthins! You have succinctly described the purpose of this show.

[BooBear]

13 hours ago, 17wheatthins said:

People are tired of the "beauty construct" and fed up with concern trolling and fat shaming and sexual harassment and every other judgemental thing that goes on day in and day out. Women have had enough of being made to feel less than. Women are fighting back. Plum is fighting back. 

No she is lashing out. That is the problem. She is doing nothing constructive to fight any of this. She is in a childish spiral hurting her and others (Calliope house) that won't do anything to deal with these issues. She was far more effective giving advice to Kitty's girls and influencing Kitty.  I don't think people really ARE fed up with it. Only certain people are. Those who benefit from it, Kitty, are happy with it. And why it will slowly, if ever, change.   

I honestly feel like Plum does have some mental issues and needs Y to tap down her destructive behavior.  Ever since she came off the "Y" she has been acting poorly emotionally lashing out. 

I truly don't care about how she dresses but I think it is telling that she is using this dress to "rebel" but no one reasonably is getting that message. Ok sure that might make her feel better but it is just more emotional lashing out that doesn't advance anything.