Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Lastcall]

40 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I think Kripke cares about the show in that he created it, but I don't think he cares whats happening day to day.  He didn't even write the finale before he left.  Some else was credited with the story. 

I wish they would end this season, but s15 does look likely. 

I would love for that to happen but Kripke has his dream job with The Boys on Amazon. Pure uncensored gore and violence. Probably has more Clock in the Walls stuff too.  Best we can hope is his schedule is free and he can do the series finale.

[trudysmom]

Huh, maybe when they keep talking about God being gone, not caring anymore, they're really talking about Kripke.  He, like the God they created and wrote, left his creation and no longer cares what happens to it.  Sadly, Dean, his "firewall" is being pummeled from all sides.  I wish the CW would pull the plug already.

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Amelia flashbacks aside I enjoyed Blood Brother for all of the Dean & Benny interaction.

Unpopular opinion I never cared for Benny.  In Purgatory he seemed like a great ally for Dean.  On earth he was another ball and chain around Dean's neck.  He only called when he needed something.  When Benny was first pitched I thought he would be a great addition to the story.  A monster ally that would help the brothers from time to time.  He was turned into a pointless wedge instead.

Amelia was such a fail that she has not been mentioned again (other than the Lucifer debacle).  Everyone moved on as quickly as they could.  My hope is that Dabb sees how unpopular the WS storyline is and moves on as soon as he can.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, Casseiopeia said:

Unpopular opinion I never cared for Benny.  In Purgatory he seemed like a great ally for Dean.  On earth he was another ball and chain around Dean's neck.  He only called when he needed something.  When Benny was first pitched I thought he would be a great addition to the story.  A monster ally that would help the brothers from time to time.  He was turned into a pointless wedge instead.

I loved Benny and liked their friendship and the fact that Dean had a friend that was his alone. I didn’t see him as a user and besides Blood Brothers didn’t he only call for help when Martin showed up?  IMO he was a great character that I would have liked to see more of but I understand that not everyone agrees with that.

[Casseiopeia]

3 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I loved Benny and liked their friendship and the fact that Dean had a friend that was his alone. I didn’t see him as a user and besides Blood Brothers didn’t he only call for help when Martin showed up?  IMO he was a great character that I would have liked to see more of but I understand that not everyone agrees with that.

His first call to Dean was when he was attacked by his "nest".  I forget the name of the episode.  But he needed Dean to bring him blood.  Just before Dean cut him loose Benny called again because he needed more blood.  I just think he had more potential than where they took that character.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, Casseiopeia said:

His first call to Dean was when he was attacked by his "nest".  I forget the name of the episode.  But he needed Dean to bring him blood.  Just before Dean cut him loose Benny called again because he needed more blood.  I just think he had more potential than where they took that character.

Blood Brothers was the episode when he was attacked and called Dean for help.

[Casseiopeia]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

Blood Brothers was the episode when he was attacked and called Dean for help.

Oh right then the next time was with Martin.  The first half of S8 isn't on my rewatch list.

[Aeryn13]

I loved Benny. He stood up for Dean about Cas` disappearing act in Purgatory. Never seen another character in the show stand up for Dean like that. 

[Myrelle]

I loved Benny. He was so much like Dean that I could have easily thought of him as an older brother to Dean and of the same type/sort that Dean was to Sam. 

I even think that this was the authorial intent to a large degree with the writing for the character. 

They could have easily kept him if they'd wanted to, IMO. And his kin Elizabeth, too.

I loved both of those characters to pieces and I mourn what they could have been for and to Dean on this show and they could have even brought Sam into it in the same manner that they did with Castiel.

I think that Benny was the greatest loss of side character potential that this show has ever given us and then written off, along with Victor Henderson as a close second in that regard. 

8 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I just think he had more potential than where they took that character.

This. For sure, IMO.

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, Casseiopeia said:

Oh right then the next time was with Martin.  The first half of S8 isn't on my rewatch list.

Those were the only instances of him asking for help that I can recall. The next time we see him was when Dean asked him to get Sam out of Purgatory. I just wish that they hadn’t used the character as a plot device to put tension between the brothers. 

[ILoveReading]

11 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

His first call to Dean was when he was attacked by his "nest".  I forget the name of the episode.  But he needed Dean to bring him blood.  Just before Dean cut him loose Benny called again because he needed more blood.  I just think he had more potential than where they took that character.

 

I could be mis- remembering but he called Dean because he lost too much blood and he needed him to get his supply from his truck.   He seemed shocked that Dean wanted to stay and help him take out his nest.  Benny didnt' ask.

Then in Citizen Fang Benny had himself settled.   Sam sending Martin after him messed that up and cost Benny his support system.  The fact that he called Dean for help never came across as using Dean.  He wouldn't have needed help if it wasn't for Sam.  Dean cut him off.  One of the times I will freely acknowledge Dean was the dick, not Benny. 

My unpopular opinion is that Benny only came between Sam and Dean because Sam put him there.

Edited October 27, 2018 by ILoveReading

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I think that Benny was the greatest loss of side character potential that this show has ever given us and then written off, along with Victor Henderson as a close second in that regard. 

I agree so much with this.

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

My unpopular opinion is that Benny only came between Sam and Dean because Sam put him there.

And with this.

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

Those were the only instances of him asking for help that I can recall. The next time we see him was when Dean asked him to get Sam out of Purgatory. I just wish that they hadn’t used the character as a plot device to put tension between the brothers. 

They used Cas and Ruby similarly.

Keeping Benny would have meant that the writers would have had to have had the courage to buck all of the shipping fandoms, though-Wincesters, BrosOnly, and Destiellers. 

They've never had the courage to buck one of those segments, IMO, much less all of them.

Well, the Destiellers maybe; and in some ways...

[AwesomO4000]

9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean cut him off.  One of the times I will freely acknowledge Dean was the dick, not Benny. 

And I resent that the writers did this to Dean. And it wasn't the only instance. The show just seemed to think it was "humorous" for some reason to have the brothers behave badly... "oh look. Ha ha. Kevin knows that those are demons and not Sam and Dean because the demons are actually treating him decently." Me: "not funny."

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

They used Cas and Ruby similarly.

Keeping Benny would have meant that the writers would have had to have had the courage to buck all of the shipping fandoms, though-Wincesters, BrosOnly, and Destiellers. 

They've never had the courage to buck one of those segments, IMO, much less all of them.

Well, the Destiellers maybe; and in some ways...

I wish that they’d ignored those parts of the fandom. 

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

I wish that they’d ignored those parts of the fandom. 

That would mean that they'd have to focus more on good, cohesive storytelling and writing and forget about fandom agendas altogether.

Perish the thought.

[Casseiopeia]

22 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

My unpopular opinion is that Benny only came between Sam and Dean because Sam put him there.

In that instance Sam did send Martin to monitor Benny which all went to hell (I hated that script by BE).  In the very first episode of S8 when everyone was acting completely out of character I never understood why Dean kept Benny a secret.  Benny had saved Dean's life, he got Dean out of Purgatory.  Sam throughout the history of the series had always been friendly with monsters, vampires in particular.  It was a wedge between the brothers that didn't need to happen.  Benny could have been an ally (and special friend to Dean) for several seasons.  

Edited October 27, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[AwesomO4000]

24 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

In that instance Sam did send Martin to monitor Benny which all went to hell (I hated that script by BE).  In the very first episode of S8 when everyone was acting completely out of character I never understood why Dean kept Benny a secret.  Benny had saved Dean's life, he got Dean out of Purgatory.  Sam throughout the history of the series had always been friendly with monsters, vampires in particular.  It was a wedge between the brothers that didn't need to happen.  Benny could have been an ally (and special friend to Dean) for several seasons.  

So much agreement to all of this.

("Citizen Fang" - if that's the episode you were thinking of (it's the one with Martin) - wasn't a Ben Edlund script though... It was a Daniel Loflin script. And yes, I despised that episode. Why bother giving us an interesting character in Elizabeth just to take her away again. So much heavy-handed cliche... Pretty much a remake of "Metamorphosis.")

With Ben Edlund's "Blood Brother" (which I also didn't like), I choose to think that Sam's epic bitch face over Benny at the end was a directing choice, and not the choice of BE.

Edited October 27, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, SueB said:

I don't know.  If I was to stab at a guess, I'd say that Carver had a more focused 'three year plot' emphasis with the overall character arcs of reshaping the boys relationship to be less codependent and more partnership.  He ended up taking 4 years versus 3. So first Carver went MORE toxic (S8-bulk of S9) and then healed the boys.  So the boys were (IMO) demonstrating almost extreme examples of the worst parts of their personality. Dean was more outwardly controlling, Sam was more outwardly aloof. All while their inner turmoil was about their low self esteem being fueled by a warped perception of how their brother viewed them. Sam thought Dean believed he (Sam) was a 'screw-up' and would rather trust a vampire.  Dean thought he (Dean) was a grunt destined to die bloody while Sam went off to an apple pie life.  S8 ended with the boys getting a less warped view of how the other perceived them.  S9 tackled extremes Dean would go to for Sam. S10 tacked the extremes Sam would go to for Dean.  S11 resulted in a more trusting relationship based on mutual brotherly love (I don't remotely mean anything of the Wincest variety) and respect but put back into the perspective of "Saving People, Hunting Things" bumper sticker.  So, I think Carver's 4-year character dynamic was ultimately successful.  But his episode-by-episode character dynamic was often filled with fear-driven bad behavior.  I think Singer bought into the long-term goal and approach.  I think it was definitely during the Carver era that the show became almost better as a binge-watch than week by week.  The long arcs were much more obvious.

Taken to the "Bitch vs Jerk" thread to be safe.

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

So much agreement to all of this.

("Citizen Fang" - if that's the episode you were thinking of (it's the one with Martin) - wasn't a Ben Edlund script though... It was a Daniel Loflin script. And yes, I despised that episode. Why bother giving us an interesting character in Elizabeth just to take her away again. So much heavy-handed cliche... Pretty much a remake of "Metamorphosis.")

With Ben Edlund's "Blood Brother" (which I also didn't like), I choose to think that Sam's epic bitch face over Benny at the end was a directing choice, and not the choice of BE.

Really!  I thought Citizen Fang was BE.  That makes me feel a little better but Blood Brother was another one I don't rewatch.

[devlin]

I am sick of Jensen being blamed for everything whether it be show runners being axed, writers leaving, storylines happening or not happening

[7kstar]

1 hour ago, devlin said:

I am sick of Jensen being blamed for everything whether it be show runners being axed, writers leaving, storylines happening or not happening

Guess I'm in left field, how is he being blamed for everything?

[Lastcall]

1 hour ago, devlin said:

I am sick of Jensen being blamed for everything whether it be show runners being axed, writers leaving, storylines happening or not happening

I don’t blame him at all in fact I admire that he has stood up for Dean over the years. The only good thing about the show anymore is that Jensen can put emotions, subtlety and true Dean moments that were never on the page in the crap scripts he has been given. I also believe he is a stand up guy who has stayed on to keep his friends employed. At this point I don’t think he is making waves other than some con and interview comments but I could see him being relieved if the show was cancelled through no fault of his own (there have even been early fan rumblings to make him the CW Batman).

[DeeDee79]

17 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

Guess I'm in left field, how is he being blamed for everything?

Regarding the showrunner statement earlier in the thread there was a statement about Jensen being the reason that Gamble was axed and that he may have had something to do with it. I didn't know that it was rumored in fandom until today. 

2 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

I don’t blame him at all in fact I admire that he has stood up for Dean over the years. The only good thing about the show anymore is that Jensen can put emotions, subtlety and true Dean moments that were never on the page in the crap scripts he has been given. I also believe he is a stand up guy who has stayed on to keep his friends employed. At this point I don’t think he is making waves other than some con and interview comments but I could see him being relieved if the show was cancelled through no fault of his own (there have even been early fan rumblings to make him the CW Batman).

Agree. I can't wait to follow him on his next project. These days ( or the last couple of seasons ) I think that SPN isn't giving him the platform to showcase all that he's capable of and he would be better appreciated elsewhere.

[devlin]

30 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

Guess I'm in left field, how is he being blamed for everything?

He has been blamed for gamble going, for Edlund leaving, for destiel not being canon, for queerbaiting, for hogging storylines and I have even seen people blaming him for Jared’s depression.

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, devlin said:

He has been blamed for gamble going, for Edlund leaving, for destiel not being canon, for queerbaiting, for hogging storylines and I have even seen people blaming him for Jared’s depression.

Wow. I've seen all of these mentioned in passing on sites that aren't exactly Jensen/Dean friendly but I hadn't seen the one about Jared's depression. It's unbelievable that fans actually went there.

[BabySpinach]

It boggles my mind that these fully-grown, professional writers somehow hit every branch of the Mary Sue Tree on their way down into crap. Do they not understand what competent character writing is? Are they so naive that they believe "unflappable, invulnerable, physically strong" = "automatically cool and badass"? Or that "sugar-sweet, angsty, self-absorbed" = "automatically compelling and sympathetic"? It's incredible how any actual maturity and nuance in the writing has declined to such a degree.

It's much harder to write well-rounded characters than one-dimensional Sues who act exactly one (1) way and serve only a singular purpose in the narrative, but that's why these dunderheads get paid for it! Jack's purpose is to make misty-eyed fangirls swoon and feel sorry for him. Kaia's purpose is to be a "badass" "feminist" power fantasy for the female demographic. Unless some major restructuring goes on, that's all they'll ever be. Writing characters to fit a specific agenda is the exact wrong way to go about it, not to mention a complete rookie move. I've mentioned this before, so I won't go into it further.

The writers have no self-awareness, nor do they have the capacity to step back and actually look at their work from a more detached, analytical standpoint. Is this story focused? Is it interesting and compelling? Do the main (!) characters get tested and challenged, and do they respond in ways unique to their personalities and pasts? Do the repercussions and consequences of their actions mean something to the greater narrative?

Berens' tweet gushing over Kaia, his own character, like a teenage fanboy was an ominous harbinger of things to come. He'll never write her as an authentic person, and as a result she'll never be interesting. But she WILL rack up a bunch of wins without ever failing, breaking a sweat or struggling in the slightest, and that is about the most boring thing a character can do.

What sucks is that characters like Rowena, Jody, Donna, and Ketch weren't written to adhere to any specific agenda, so the writers are clearly still somewhat capable, yet those characters would never be the ones to steal the focus of the mytharc from the protagonists. Instead, it's the dirt-boring little Mary Sues, which is even more painful. 

[Lastcall]

43 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

It's much harder to write well-rounded characters than one-dimensional Sues who act exactly one (1) way and serve only a singular purpose in the narrative, but that's why these dunderheads get paid for it! Jack's purpose is to make misty-eyed fangirls swoon and feel sorry for him. Kaia's purpose is to be a "badass" "feminist" power fantasy for the female demographic. Unless some major restructuring goes on, that's all they'll ever be. Writing characters to fit a specific agenda is the exact wrong way to go about it, not to mention a complete rookie move. I've mentioned this before, so I won't go into it further.

The writers have no self-awareness, nor do they have the capacity to step back and actually look at their work from a more detached, analytical standpoint. Is this story focused? Is it interesting and compelling? Do the main (!) characters get tested and challenged, and do they respond in ways unique to their personalities and pasts? Do the repercussions and consequences of their actions mean something to the greater narrative?

Berens' tweet gushing over Kaia, his own character, like a teenage fanboy was an ominous harbinger of things to come. He'll never write her as an authentic person, and as a result she'll never be interesting. But she WILL rack up a bunch of wins without ever failing, breaking a sweat or struggling in the slightest, and that is about the most boring thing a character can do.

What sucks is that characters like Rowena, Jody, Donna, and Ketch weren't written to adhere to any specific agenda, so the writers are clearly still somewhat capable, yet those characters would never be the ones to steal the focus of the mytharc from the protagonists. Instead, it's the dirt-boring little Mary Sues, which is even more painful. 

I agree with everything you wrote. The elephant in the room is all the Sue’s they’re propping up don’t have the acting ability to pull off what is being written. They can have Kaia, Mary and any of the others kill 1000 supervamps with a tooth pick then kick Chuck in the crotch and it still won’t mean anything. None of them can match Real Bobby, Ellen and John in the gravitas department and they didn’t have to be propped with stories where they kill Azazel and Lucifer with a pen knife. The supermonsters are a joke that can be taken out by a 60 year old notBobby, Mary and now Kaia. They made Michael look like a joke and wait to see another ratings drop if they go all in when promoting Kaia’s next episode.

One of this shows biggest problems is not playing to the actors strengths. Even Jared said he is not entirely comfortable with the General Winchester storyline. Dabb can’t recognize when he’s made a mistake or something isn’t working. He goes all in to try and make fans see things the way he does and that’s why everything is such a mess now.

[7kstar]

5 hours ago, devlin said:

He has been blamed for gamble going, for Edlund leaving, for destiel not being canon, for queerbaiting, for hogging storylines and I have even seen people blaming him for Jared’s depression.

All I can say is wow, what a bunch of bull.  If Jared didn't like Jensen, why did they both move to Austin?  Just wow.  The things people will make up for their agenda.

 

4 hours ago, Lastcall said:

One of this shows biggest problems is not playing to the actors strengths.

You can build an actor's ability but you need a strong director that knows how to do that.  Plus lately, I think the two J's are playing around a bit too much so they do what they know.  I don't hear any stories about the director asked them to go in a direction they hadn't thought about as Manners did during the beginning of the show.  But he was a strong director...as an example.

5 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

It's much harder to write well-rounded characters than one-dimensional Sues who act exactly one (1) way and serve only a singular purpose in the narrative, but that's why these dunderheads get paid for it! Jack's purpose is to make misty-eyed fangirls swoon and feel sorry for him. Kaia's purpose is to be a "badass" "feminist" power fantasy for the female demographic. Unless some major restructuring goes on, that's all they'll ever be. Writing characters to fit a specific agenda is the exact wrong way to go about it, not to mention a complete rookie move. I've mentioned this before, so I won't go into it further

Jody, Ellen, and even Bobby didn't start out a certain way.  They were written to tell a story and as they gain popularity they were added more and more.   Even Kripke had accidents in his writing which improved when he figured out this is what drew fans to the show.  I think the writers may feel a little trapped because the success of the show appears limited to them.  But if they would take risks and tell a powerful story, I think most of the fans would follow even if it made things bumpy at first.  The brothers being separated just to pull them apart because they are so mad at each other is something to avoid.  But if they believe the solution is in opposite directions and can't follow each other they could break them apart for a bit and still keep the fans.  My problem is how predictable it all is.  Why do I feel this way because I can look at past seasons and see this is how they will do this.  Not really compelling or mysterious when it happens that way.  JMV

[devlin]

14 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

All I can say is wow, what a bunch of bull.  If Jared didn't like Jensen, why did they both move to Austin?  Just wow.  The things people will make up for their agenda.

The funniest part of it is that they decided Jensen  moved to Austin because he wouldn’t leave Jared alone and was pretty much stalking him and Jared was forced to create boundaries 

[Bobcatkitten]

11 hours ago, devlin said:

The funniest part of it is that they decided Jensen  moved to Austin because he wouldn’t leave Jared alone and was pretty much stalking him and Jared was forced to create boundaries 

I get you guys are all saying you disagree with this stuff but even bringing it into forums and writing it gives it life. This is crap. Ignore it. 

[devlin]

4 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I get you guys are all saying you disagree with this stuff but even bringing it into forums and writing it gives it life. This is crap. Ignore it. 

Sorry it was not my intent to give it any life, I was just in an extremely crappy mood

[FlickChick]

22 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

It boggles my mind that these fully-grown, professional writers somehow hit every branch of the Mary Sue Tree on their way down into crap. Do they not understand what competent character writing is? Are they so naive that they believe "unflappable, invulnerable, physically strong" = "automatically cool and badass"? Or that "sugar-sweet, angsty, self-absorbed" = "automatically compelling and sympathetic"? It's incredible how any actual maturity and nuance in the writing has declined to such a degree.

It's much harder to write well-rounded characters than one-dimensional Sues who act exactly one (1) way and serve only a singular purpose in the narrative, but that's why these dunderheads get paid for it! Jack's purpose is to make misty-eyed fangirls swoon and feel sorry for him. Kaia's purpose is to be a "badass" "feminist" power fantasy for the female demographic. Unless some major restructuring goes on, that's all they'll ever be. Writing characters to fit a specific agenda is the exact wrong way to go about it, not to mention a complete rookie move. I've mentioned this before, so I won't go into it further.

The writers have no self-awareness, nor do they have the capacity to step back and actually look at their work from a more detached, analytical standpoint. Is this story focused? Is it interesting and compelling? Do the main (!) characters get tested and challenged, and do they respond in ways unique to their personalities and pasts? Do the repercussions and consequences of their actions mean something to the greater narrative?

Berens' tweet gushing over Kaia, his own character, like a teenage fanboy was an ominous harbinger of things to come. He'll never write her as an authentic person, and as a result she'll never be interesting. But she WILL rack up a bunch of wins without ever failing, breaking a sweat or struggling in the slightest, and that is about the most boring thing a character can do.

What sucks is that characters like Rowena, Jody, Donna, and Ketch weren't written to adhere to any specific agenda, so the writers are clearly still somewhat capable, yet those characters would never be the ones to steal the focus of the mytharc from the protagonists. Instead, it's the dirt-boring little Mary Sues, which is even more painful. 

@BabySpinach, I have to tell you how much I love all your posts - and this one especially. I absolutely hate what is happening to our show due to this junior-high level writing. I simply cannot understand how Dabb, Berens, and company are still employed. I wish that TPTB at The CW took a look at a forum such as this and realized that something had to be done with the current showrunners/writers before they have no audience for which to write. I have wondered what Jensen really thinks about the lack of story and worthwhile scenes, the lies, the pandering to certain factions, the MP obsession, the WS obsession, and the general lack of common sense being displayed by everyone running this show into the ground.

[tessathereaper]

On 10/27/2018 at 7:06 PM, devlin said:

He has been blamed for gamble going, for Edlund leaving, for destiel not being canon, for queerbaiting, for hogging storylines and I have even seen people blaming him for Jared’s depression.

I never heard that one about Edlund, how could he possibly be responsible for Edlund leaving? Hogging storylines?  What storylines?  He's the king of them stealing storylines that start with his character by cutting them short and then giving "bigger better(not)" versions to other characters.  The reason Gamble "got gone" was because she was often over-budget(in season 6 and season 7) and consistently was taking too long to get the scripts to the various departments who needed to do stuff like scout locations, build sets, make costumes, etc.  It wasn't just because Jensen didn't like "domesticated Dean" at the beginning of Season 6 that's for sure.  There were a LOT of BTS problems with Sera.  That's why they brought Singer in to be co-showrunner about halfway through the season, to try and get control of the budget.

Edited October 29, 2018 by tessathereaper

[devlin]

Jared needs to stop with the face pulling. It’s seriously distracting 

[devlin]

can someone please give Jared a haircut!

[ahrtee]

Probably not a UO, but....Having just watched Home (for the umpteenth time) I came up with a theory:

Mary's spirit really was destroyed in the end there.  The one Amara pulled from Heaven was a Memorex version who didn't give a crap about anyone but herself.  That's why she didn't remember Home at all--it never happened to her.  Or maybe it was her soul--the part that cared about the boys--that came to the house and was destroyed, leaving a soulless Mary behind to be resurrected.

It would certainly explain a lot!

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Probably not a UO, but....Having just watched Home (for the umpteenth time) I came up with a theory:

Mary's spirit really was destroyed in the end there.  The one Amara pulled from Heaven was a Memorex version who didn't give a crap about anyone but herself.  That's why she didn't remember Home at all--it never happened to her.  Or maybe it was her soul--the part that cared about the boys--that came to the house and was destroyed, leaving a soulless Mary behind to be resurrected.

It would certainly explain a lot!

Definitely a plausible theory, and much more entertaining than anything that has happened on the show with her. But at this point I just don't care anymore. There is nothing that could redeem her character and I just want her gone. Not dead because that would only hurt Dean and Sam. But an extended journey to find herself say in, Australia would be fine by me.

Or maybe Amara could just come back and take back her shitty gift. A gift certificate to Biggerson's would have been more useful to him.

[Lastcall]

47 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Probably not a UO, but....Having just watched Home (for the umpteenth time) I came up with a theory:

Mary's spirit really was destroyed in the end there.  The one Amara pulled from Heaven was a Memorex version who didn't give a crap about anyone but herself.  That's why she didn't remember Home at all--it never happened to her.  Or maybe it was her soul--the part that cared about the boys--that came to the house and was destroyed, leaving a soulless Mary behind to be resurrected.

It would certainly explain a lot!

Completely agree. My head cannon was Amara brought back Mary’s body but either left her soul in heaven or ate it outright since Chuck seemed to be the soul creator while she was the devourer.

[Mulva]

I guess my UO is that I've been loving this season so far.  I really enjoy all the new characters and seeing Sam get to be the leader for once.  Hail to the Chief!

[Bobcatkitten]

6 minutes ago, Mulva said:

I guess my UO is that I've been loving this season so far.  I really enjoy all the new characters and seeing Sam get to be the leader for once.  Hail to the Chief!

I like seeing Sam come into his own. I just don't need to be hit over the head with it every 10 minutes.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I like seeing Sam come into his own. I just don't need to be hit over the head with it every 10 minutes.

Yep, or make everyone around him dumb as a bag of rocks to do it.

[Pondlass1]

49 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

soulless Mary

I think a lot of it is the actress.  She gives off cold and distant no matter the script. There is no chemistry with either of her sons. I hope she stays at Jodi's or wherever the hell they've sent her for a few episodes.  She can nurse Bobby and send encouraging texts to Sammy.

6 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Sam come into his own. I just don't need to be hit over the head

It's getting ridiculous.  Grief beard, sighs and perpetual furrowed brow... poor baby.  Come on! this man's been through way worse.

I'm a Dean girl, but I appreciate Sam too.  They're both flawed to hell.  And that's why I enjoy them.  The Winchester brothers' dynamic has always been raw and messy but they got things done.  Neither one needs to be organizing anyone or anything.  This isn't an ensemble show , don't start with it now.  Get the clutter out of the bunker.  Let Sam and Dean deal like they always have.

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, Lastcall said:

Completely agree. My head cannon was Amara brought back Mary’s body but either left her soul in heaven or ate it outright since Chuck seemed to be the soul creator while she was the devourer.

Can we get a return to sender thing with Mary? Because she is a worse gift than a rubber chicken gag gift at a white elephant gift exchange. Its just depressing knowing that Sam, Dean, and John dedicated their lives to avenging her death, and elevated her memory to sainthood, and her death was one of the great formative moments in all their lives that lead to basically all of their current issues...and she could give less of a fuck about either of her sons. Especially Dean, who I think she consistently forgets about until he is literally standing in front of her. And even then, she is usually just looking for a reason to talk about herself or complain about something. Or, you could look at it as a darkly funny deconstruction of the "sainted dead mother/wife" archetype that is all over television/movies/books. She is the Daisy to the rest of the Winchesters Gatsby, the perfect woman they idealize and build up into some amazing person who they change their whole life for, and then when they actually meet them again, they realize she probably wasn't worth the effort. If this was in purpose, it would be kind of amazing.

[fishpan]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

She is the Daisy to the rest of the Winchesters Gatsby, the perfect woman they idealize and build up into some amazing person who they change their whole life for, and then when they actually meet them again, they realize she probably wasn't worth the effort. If this was in purpose, it would be kind of amazing.

That is the problem and I don't blame Dabb for it for all it.  The problems with Mary began with Kripke and every showrunner has just piled on. 

Kripke set Mary up as the reason Sam and Dean were hunters.   But she wasn't there so we could take that she was such a wonderful person and their family was so apple pie that John became an obsessive bastard to gain vengeance and understanding about why she was dead.  Not her fault - John's fault for not getting help.  But then Kripke had the angels make John and Mary fall in love - that their relationship wasn't a choice made by John and Mary, it wasn't a natural getting to know each other.  It was a third party get involved to make sure 2 people were born, because they have a cherub saying John and Mary hated each other on first sight that means whatever that angel did any love the two of them had had to be obsessive because it wasn't natural, it was ordered.  I say that as we saw Mary willingly walk into a knife fight with a cosmic entity while he knew she was pregnant when she had other options to protect John and when flung into a car she put getting John to safety before getting checked out.  But then she would use that pregnancy she didn't seem to care about as the reason to stay with John rather than leave him to ensure the safety of the entire world!  Which is basically the flip side of having John putting getting vengeance for Mary over the safety of his kids.

But still under Kripke, Mary was from a family of hunters and John was in part the path for her to have a normal life, which under Kripke we kind of saw she stuck to.  But still Mary went from the perfect victim of season  and 2 to if nature had been left alone to one half of a relationship that wouldn't have happened.  But not only that we have a woman who didn't let the man she married know the real her.  Bad but we could blame the angels and demons for part of it but then the pile on started. 

Gamble piled her issues on with having Samuel go on about how Mary was the light of his life.  Gamble would have him sell out everyone just to have a shot of getting his daughter back.  Mary was painted as such a blessing that Samuel would betray generations of his family's heritage.  Not her fault but the pattern Kripke started was being consolidated - Mary is being painted as the person who the men in her life would do anything for to the point they'd betray themselves and all around them for but the men in question didn't know the real her.

So when we actually did actually met her, well no character can live up to being so wonderful to justify what John and Samuel did even if they shat rose petals and brought hamsters back to life by looking at them and that is before we get into how she herself has acted since she came back.

But then Dabb then had to bend Mary over to allow him to really screw her, because her being confused and needing space would be understandable but he had to have her o above and beyond with her and the BMoL.  She'd lie to her sons and put them in danger with them not knowing why, have Ketch become a bit obsessive over her, have every hunter she was meeting thinking she is the best thing EVER and her having the skills to back that up, which means that flashback to her one time hunt when Dean was a baby wasn't a one time thing.  She was continually out hunting and lying to John about that. 

 

But not only that Dabb had her even though she'd only been back on earth she was physically capable in taking out every single hunter she came up against.  Kripke had at least a possessed Sam have a real struggle to kill the hunter he went up against.  Mary, well all she has to do is get hunters alone and she is a killing machine.  Then Dabb has to have his Mary fixes amke things so much worse as his a five minute vision quest from Dean was sort of trite - a hug after all of that from Sam?  Really?  Forgive her sure but don't forget what she is now supposedly capable of even if she tries to punch Lucifer in the face.  But what made it worse was the hand waving that we should forgive Mary everything because there was a whole other dimension condemned because the other her didn't make the deal which was just insulting.

So Mary could be played by the most charismatic actress ever but with everything...well every show runner they have had have set Mary up to fail, so if we ever got John back for even one episode I would love it if he told Mary to go shove it as if he is bad she is so much worse.

Edited November 9, 2018 by fishpan

[juppschmitz]

(Hoping this is the right subforum for this post.)

My attempt at making any sense whatsoever of the atrocious characterization and writing on SPN since Dabb took over:

Remember when Amara said to Dean in 11.23:

“Dean, you gave me what I needed most. I want to do the same for you.”

And boom! There’s Mary in her white night dress, looking all forlorn and confused.

Everyone assumes that what Dean needs most is Mary, right? But, I’ve come to assume that everything that’s happened is not actually real, but Amara knowing that Dean most needs to be shown how crap his family/friends are and to realize that he has to let them go.

For me this explains single-handedly all the crap that’s happened in season 12, 13, and (so far) 14:

We have Mary returning and…leaving first chance she gets. Then she’s - literally - in bed with the enemy. Then she gets Sam to join the BMoL without telling Dean. Then the two of them get Dean to also work for the Brits. Then, of course, eventually even Sam and Mary realize the BMoL are a horrible organisation and need to be wiped out. Then Mary disappears in the AU. End season 12.

Season 13 has Dean try to come to terms with losing Mary again. Until he realizes she’s alive over there and he tries his best to bring her back - only to realize that she’s decided for herself that a bunch of random strangers in a world that isn’t even her own are more important to her than Dean. Then it’s decided that Mary and all those AU fighters need to be brought to our world for reasons and Sam’s stupidity makes it possible for both Lucifer AND Michael to pass into our world with Sam ending up in mortal danger from Lucifer which makes it necessary for Dean to say yes to Michael so Sam can be saved.

Season 14 has Mary quite obviously not giving a shit about Dean’s possible Michael trauma (even though Dean only said yes to Michael to save her favourite son) as long as she can fawn over “natural born leader” Sam and hop into bed with a guy who could be her granddad.

It goes this way season after seaon and episode after episode until finally, in the very last episode of the show we’re back with Amara and Dean in that garden from 11.23 and Dean realizes the truth.

He decides to leave his family behind and - cue Jensen’s dream of the ending of the series:  “It’s just one scene. Think: Middle America, Big Sky country. It’s just wheat fields as far as the eye can see, and there’s an intersection, a crossroads, oddly enough. I drive up in the Impala, and I park in the middle of the intersection. There’s nobody for miles. I get out of the car and I look in the distance […] I just see this thing coming in the distance, and it gets closer and closer and closer and closer. It’s a guy on a motorbike. And we never really see his face. He’s got a helmet on. But he walks up and I give him a nod, and I take a walk around the Impala very slowly and I walk back over to him and I hand the keys to him. And he takes off his helmet — we don’t see who it is — he hands the helmet to me and hands me the keys to the bike. From his back, he gets in the car and I watch the Impala drive off. And then I turn and I look at the bike that’s got one seat. And I put the helmet on, start the bike, [give] one last look to the Impala, it’s now gone, and I take off. Because I don’t need the extra seat anymore.” (x)

See? Perfect ending to a perfect scenario.

And that’s it. I’m sticking with it because to me it’s my perfect Watsonian explanation of everything that frustrates me. The Doylist explanation of course is that Dabb and his team of writers suck, but that does not help me keeping an interest in the series.

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

(Hoping this is the right subforum for this post.)

My attempt at making any sense whatsoever of the atrocious characterization and writing on SPN since Dabb took over:

Remember when Amara said to Dean in 11.23:

“Dean, you gave me what I needed most. I want to do the same for you.”

And boom! There’s Mary in her white night dress, looking all forlorn and confused.

Everyone assumes that what Dean needs most is Mary, right? But, I’ve come to assume that everything that’s happened is not actually real, but Amara knowing that Dean most needs to be shown how crap his family/friends are and to realize that he has to let them go.

For me this explains single-handedly all the crap that’s happened in season 12, 13, and (so far) 14:

We have Mary returning and…leaving first chance she gets. Then she’s - literally - in bed with the enemy. Then she gets Sam to join the BMoL without telling Dean. Then the two of them get Dean to also work for the Brits. Then, of course, eventually even Sam and Mary realize the BMoL are a horrible organisation and need to be wiped out. Then Mary disappears in the AU. End season 12.

Season 13 has Dean try to come to terms with losing Mary again. Until he realizes she’s alive over there and he tries his best to bring her back - only to realize that she’s decided for herself that a bunch of random strangers in a world that isn’t even her own are more important to her than Dean. Then it’s decided that Mary and all those AU fighters need to be brought to our world for reasons and Sam’s stupidity makes it possible for both Lucifer AND Michael to pass into our world with Sam ending up in mortal danger from Lucifer which makes it necessary for Dean to say yes to Michael so Sam can be saved.

Season 14 has Mary quite obviously not giving a shit about Dean’s possible Michael trauma (even though Dean only said yes to Michael to save her favourite son) as long as she can fawn over “natural born leader” Sam and hop into bed with a guy who could be her granddad.

It goes this way season after seaon and episode after episode until finally, in the very last episode of the show we’re back with Amara and Dean in that garden from 11.23 and Dean realizes the truth.

He decides to leave his family behind and - cue Jensen’s dream of the ending of the series:  “It’s just one scene. Think: Middle America, Big Sky country. It’s just wheat fields as far as the eye can see, and there’s an intersection, a crossroads, oddly enough. I drive up in the Impala, and I park in the middle of the intersection. There’s nobody for miles. I get out of the car and I look in the distance […] I just see this thing coming in the distance, and it gets closer and closer and closer and closer. It’s a guy on a motorbike. And we never really see his face. He’s got a helmet on. But he walks up and I give him a nod, and I take a walk around the Impala very slowly and I walk back over to him and I hand the keys to him. And he takes off his helmet — we don’t see who it is — he hands the helmet to me and hands me the keys to the bike. From his back, he gets in the car and I watch the Impala drive off. And then I turn and I look at the bike that’s got one seat. And I put the helmet on, start the bike, [give] one last look to the Impala, it’s now gone, and I take off. Because I don’t need the extra seat anymore.” (x)

See? Perfect ending to a perfect scenario.

And that’s it. I’m sticking with it because to me it’s my perfect Watsonian explanation of everything that frustrates me. The Doylist explanation of course is that Dabb and his team of writers suck, but that does not help me keeping an interest in the series.

Works for me!

[gonzosgirrl]

@juppschmitz I've been calling fever dream since nobody (except, for a brief moment, Cas) seemed to give a fuck that Dean was still alive in 12x01. Would that our scenario comes to pass. 

Edited November 10, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[juppschmitz]

53 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

@juppschmitz I've been calling fever dream since nobody (except, for a brief moment, Cas) seemed to give a fuck that Dean was still alive in 12x01. Would that our scenario comes to pass. 

 

I tried to go with dream as well, but... do you really have stuff happening in your dreams without you being any given dream sequence? *wonders*

I needed something to explain all the scenes that don't actually have Dean in them. So Amara it was.

Just as long as all of this is somehow fake, I'm cool with it.

Edited November 10, 2018 by juppschmitz

[SueB]

Watching Racist Ghost Truck on TNT today:  You know, I don't like Cassie.  Yes, she and Dean were hot together.  But she dumped Dean TWICE.  Created scar tissue that he can't be himself and be with a woman he cares about.  I can kinda forgive the first time because "the truth is out there' speech is a little hard to take.  But then she sleeps with him again and dumps his ass all over again at the end.  "I'm a realist". Humph.  No, you didn't actually care enough about Dean to TRY and make it work.  Now maybe she didn't appreciate what she meant to him but I don't care, she hurt my boy -- I don't like her.  *flounce off in a huff*