S02.E09: Smart Power

[marinw]

3 minutes ago, greekmom said:

 

One thing I was curious is what about California

California genrally tends to be very liberal and progressive, so I doubt the majority of Calafornians drank the Gilead Kool-Aid.

[Umbelina]

14 minutes ago, greekmom said:

One thing I was curious is what about California. Eden said she got strawberries from California. So is a) California part of Gilead? or b) are they trading with Gilead and not part of the US?

Sorry, but this has been asked and answered in many threads several times, including this one.

Gilead is what the USA is now, without Alaska and Hawaii.  Many of those areas are disaster zones and war zones but they are still Gilead.

9 minutes ago, marinw said:

California genrally tends to be very liberal and progressive, so I doubt the majority of Calafornians drank the Gilead Kool-Aid.

In the book, California is particularly

Spoiler

devastated by earthquakes, climate change issues like sea levels, drought, fires, and nuclear accidents, the Livermore Lab which sits right on top of the Hayward Fault line is specified as just one plant that had an accident do to earthquake

.

  I was kind of shocked they are able to produce strawberries, but who knows?

Edited June 18, 2018 by Umbelina

[marinw]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Gilead is what the USA is now, without Alaska and Hawaii.

I stand corrected! Thank you.

[greekmom]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Sorry, but this has been asked and answered in many threads several times, including this one.

Gilead is what the USA is now, without Alaska and Hawaii.  Many of those areas are disaster zones and war zones but they are still Gilead.

Sorry. It's because they said California. It wasn't renamed in the new regime. That's what confused me.

[Umbelina]

Just now, marinw said:

I stand corrected! Thank you.

The show has also brought it up, but vaguely, and if you didn't have closed captioning on, easy to miss.

Just now, greekmom said:

Sorry. It's because they said California. It wasn't renamed in the new regime. That's what confused me.

Interesting point, I wonder if they still use the old state names and city names regularly, or if some have been renamed, others not.  Or, if the only name that's been changed is USA, which is now Gilead.  The USA is now just Alaska and Hawaii.

[secnarf]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

One thing I was curious is what about California. Eden said she got strawberries from California. So is a) California part of Gilead? or b) are they trading with Gilead and not part of the US?

I also wondered about this - I know California is now part of "Gilead" but did Gilead keep all of the old state/city names? I had thought not (I don't think we have heard them refer to their city as Boston?) until Eden referred to California. Hearing the name of that state was so familiar/normal that it was jarring to me. And then I started wondering what California is like now, and did all of the state boundaries remain the same, and how in the hell did Eden know they were from California anyways, if there are no words on the labels of food and she cannot/should not read? A picture of the state on the box? And why would Gilead bother telling people where the fruit comes from? I thought there were wars going on within Gilead, is California spared from those? Is it like Boston is now? I thought their food came from the 'colonies' (the ones that aren't radioactive), so is California part of the colonies? Why does it then get to keep its identity as California?

I missed a good chunk after that statement because I was so busy wondering all of these things, and as you can see I was *way* overthinking it. Mostly I just think it was an offhand remark that the writers did not fully think through.

[Umbelina]

23 minutes ago, secnarf said:

I also wondered about this - I know California is now part of "Gilead" but did Gilead keep all of the old state/city names? I had thought not (I don't think we have heard them refer to their city as Boston?) until Eden referred to California. Hearing the name of that state was so familiar/normal that it was jarring to me. And then I started wondering what California is like now, and did all of the state boundaries remain the same, and how in the hell did Eden know they were from California anyways, if there are no words on the labels of food and she cannot/should not read? A picture of the state on the box? And why would Gilead bother telling people where the fruit comes from? I thought there were wars going on within Gilead, is California spared from those? Is it like Boston is now? I thought their food came from the 'colonies' (the ones that aren't radioactive), so is California part of the colonies? Why does it then get to keep its identity as California?

I missed a good chunk after that statement because I was so busy wondering all of these things, and as you can see I was *way* overthinking it. Mostly I just think it was an offhand remark that the writers did not fully think through.

I think they said something about Florida as well, oranges maybe?  Maybe the Commanders brag every time something good happens and the maids, handmaids, wives hear the name of the place then?

The colonies, and I'll tag it since I don't think it's actually been mentioned on the show, but honestly, by now?  It should have been, it's not some big secret spoiler or anything.

Spoiler

There are all kinds of colonies, not just radioactive colonies.  Think Chernobyl, that didn't make all of Russia radioactive.  There are also crop growing colonies, there are pockets of resistance (the wars they mention are all internal) but they haven't mentioned the places yet.

This one is a more spoilery about them, and another important change the show decided to make:

Spoiler

The Rocky Mountains were specifically mentioned as a particular problem area for the loyal Gilead troops, lots of fighting there, but it's not limited to just one area.  We are never sure just how many resisters/fighters there are, and where they are all located.  In the book, all food growing colonies are staffed by black people, who are considered sub-human to the white people of Gilead, but not sinners, just a born serving class.  There are many areas where food can be grown.  I don't think it's as bleak there as the radioactive colonies, but it's not great.  It's another reason why even if we've read the book we don't know what the show is really doing either.  For example, Gilead was always about the drastic drop in WHITE birthrates only.  Africa for example, and India, weren't having drops in birthrates, probably Pacific Islanders weren't either.  That may have indicated pollution effects, first world countries (white) were having the problems.

So, who knows when the show will finally give us more information?  It's annoying me now, this hasn't been a first person show EVER, and we know characters on screen who know all of this stuff.  It's time for some sharing.  All it would take is a meeting between the Commanders discussing the current state of the union.  I'd be fascinated.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Umbelina

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

All it would take is a meeting between the Commanders discussing the current state of the union.  I'd be fascinated.

I would like that too. For as much as they've expanded the narrative beyond the book, we still dont know much about what all is going on where the main characters arent. And since we have people who could be easily talking about this, I would think we could throw something like that in, so we can get our bearings, especially since we`ve left Gilead a few times now. We can have a bunch of commanders in a meeting talking about how everything is going (especially after the handmaiden attack and the letters coming out) and what to do next. 

And then the building explodes and they all die in a fire. Everyone wins!

[SourK]

On 6/13/2018 at 3:55 PM, Trillian said:

Why did they need the letters when they have actual handmaids, at least one Aunt (referred to in Season 1) and many refugees?   And why were the Canadians suddenly so shocked by what’s going on in Gilead that they threw the Waterfords out?  It reminded me of Inspector Renault in Casablanca - I’m shocked!  There’s gambling going on here!  Kinda silly, since it was obvious from their earlier rudeness that they knew what was happening and there’s all these refugees who presumably are telling their stories. 

This bugged me, too. Everybody crossing the border has a story about how the Gilead people tried to murder them and their families, kidnapped their children, raped them, enslaved them, etc, etc, but now there are letters and everyone's shocked? I get the argument that the influx of letters makes a strong case, but I also think that if Luke and Moira had gone on the news as soon as they knew it was Fred, specifically, who was the ambassador, that would have also made a pretty strong case.

Also, speaking of Fred, I was totally wrong. I thought for sure he'd jump ship as soon as he could get out of the country, but I guess the changing power structures (that we don't understand) have soothed him? I seriously thought for a little while that the episode would end with Serena turning down the offer to leave Gilead only to discover that Fred made a deal for himself and sent her home alone.

On 6/14/2018 at 11:13 PM, secnarf said:

Her "It wasn't my fault" struck me as her trying to convince/remind herself that she was not responsible. Also, since June had just asked Lydia to be the child's "godparent" and protect the baby, I wondered if she was trying to assure June that just because her previous godchild died, it had nothing to do with her (Lydia) and it doesn't have anything to do with how well she will protect June's child.

Loved the looks on Serena's and Nick's faces when they saw Luke's poster of his family. Also loved that last scene with June and Nick - that was the most I've ever liked Nick, and it was the first time I could believe that he really loves her.

Hey, who knows. Maybe during Aunt training, everyone sat around Lydia in a circle and told her it was her fault. (That scene played really weird to me, and, in all seriousness, I thought it was kind of funny that, in addition to all the other reasons you would never ask Aunt Lydia to watch your child, she just randomly threw in that she killed her nephew or something).

I also liked Nick this episode, but I still don't trust him. Partly because, when he described June as his "friend" it reminded me that they don't have a real friendship. He didn't know how to act around her during the brief period where she didn't have to be subservient -- their entire relationship depends on this weird medieval roleplay where she desperately needs him for safety. In real life, they would not be friends, and he wouldn't be able to hold up his side of a conversation.

On 6/14/2018 at 11:56 PM, julia1130 said:

Add me me to the list of those for whom there is no redemption for SJ. The day she realized that Gilead was being created with much more extreme versions of her initial intentions, she should have bailed and moved to Canada to start speaking out against. She still would have been complicit but not nearly as much as she is now. 

That said, if she had decided to run while in Toronto, she would simply need to get some modern clothing and let down her hair in order not to be heckled. She would barely be recognizable.

I'm not sure that this is coming across well, but the idea I get is that Serena is supposed to be famous as the spokesperson for this movement -- like, she is the Ann Coulter of the Gileads or something. If she wanted to bail and seek refugee status in Canada, or elsewhere, probably some people would be okay with it, but a lot of people would recognize her and have something to say about it.

[Clanstarling]

34 minutes ago, SourK said:

I'm not sure that this is coming across well, but the idea I get is that Serena is supposed to be famous as the spokesperson for this movement -- like, she is the Ann Coulter of the Gileads or something. If she wanted to bail and seek refugee status in Canada, or elsewhere, probably some people would be okay with it, but a lot of people would recognize her and have something to say about it.

That's the idea I get too. I wouldn't compare her to Ann Coulter as much as the numerous women authors/speakers over the years who have been all about keeping women in their "god appointed" place - the only name I remember is a very old one - Anita Bryant - so many of you may not be familiar. But I certainly would have reacted negatively to her if I'd been in her presence (though I'm a polite person who doesn't make scenes, I probably would have seethed behind a bland face).

[marinw]

I am skeptical of Mark’s claim that the scientists have made progress with fertilely. Progress may have been made, but Mark might be exaggerating to get Serena to defect. In any case, Serena can’t have a child anyway since she was shot so she goes back to Gilead since “her” baby is coming.

I am glad they acknowledged our theory that it was male sperm all along.

[secnarf]

9 minutes ago, marinw said:

I am skeptical of Mark’s claim that the scientists have made progress with fertilely. Progress may have been made, but Mark might be exaggerating to get Serena to defect. In any case, Serena can’t have a child anyway since she was shot so she goes back to Gilead since “her” baby is coming.

I am glad they acknowledged our theory that it was male sperm all along.

It's not our theory - they have mentioned it on the show before. That's why Serena had June and Nick have sex. She was fairly sure it was Fred that was the problem. I do wish they would confirm whether or not the shooting destroyed Serena's chance at carrying a baby, though.

 

I don't think Fred would have defected - as far as he is concerned, he is better off in Gilead. By the time he learns that that isn't actually true, it will be too late for him.

[Pondlass1]

I love that we're presented with such conflicting characters.  We don't know if or when they'll step off the path or what they'll do next.  So much of American TV today is predictable with puddle deep, one dimensional characters.  I cannot be bothered to watch most of the stuff on TV nowadays.

Not with this show.  Serena and Aunt Lydia for instance. We never see anything like them anywhere else on our screens.  Serena is conflicted, I keep thinking redemption but then she tosses the matches into the fire with a stiff upper lip of resolve. And Aunt Lydia, who tears up at the mention of babies but probably wouldn't think twice about poking them with her electric prod if they misbehaved.  The acting is perfection.  

Why is it so dark for the Canadian interior scenes?  One lamp turned on in the room?  Are utilities at a premium in this world or are they trying to set an atmosphere?  And why were a bunch of letters a wake up call for Canada?  Surely there are Gilead refugee stories all over the internet and TV?  

I haven't read any posts yet, but I guess most have commented on Nick's visit to June.  That's a creaky house.  Why are they not even bothered to be careful? I guess it's for audience suspense.

[marinw]

On 6/18/2018 at 10:35 AM, Pondlass1 said:

Are utilities at a premium in this world or are they trying to set an atmosphere? 

IIRC In season one Moira mentioned that the power or heat or something was off in her apartment.  I kind of like this, it shows Canada isn’t Utopia, Canadians are having their own struggles with infrastructure or resources or some such. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by marinw

[chaifan]

In response to people questioning why Luke and Moira just wouldn't go on tv about the Waterfords, my guess is some of it had to do with timing.  The Waterfords were only in Canada for a few days.  Even if Moira and Luke were able to get the attention of someone at a major news outlet, the media would have to verify their story before they could just put them on making all sorts of kidnapping and rape and murder claims against Fred & Serena.  And that verification may well be impossible to get, but highly unlikely that it could have happened in just a few days.

[Baltimore Betty]

5 minutes ago, chaifan said:

In response to people questioning why Luke and Moira just wouldn't go on tv about the Waterfords, my guess is some of it had to do with timing.  The Waterfords were only in Canada for a few days.  Even if Moira and Luke were able to get the attention of someone at a major news outlet, the media would have to verify their story before they could just put them on making all sorts of kidnapping and rape and murder claims against Fred & Serena.  And that verification may well be impossible to get, but highly unlikely that it could have happened in just a few days.

I wonder if there is an Oprah like person on TV in Canada?  Surely this sort of story would make for a huge ratings bump and Moira could get her story out there...why hasn't there been a Canadian Oprah show about the HM's and others that have escaped Gilead?

[txhorns79]

Quote

Gilead is what the USA is now, without Alaska and Hawaii.  Many of those areas are disaster zones and war zones but they are still Gilead.

Yes, I view it like the East Coast is the most stable part of Gilead, in that there are bombs and attacks, but not as an everyday occurrence, while elsewhere there's basically an open revolution in some spots, and other spots are just decimated by war or natural disaster.     

[Shangrilala]

If memory serves, in the epilogue of the book they talk about Canada and its relationship with Gilead briefly but they say that Canada was very careful not to anger its nuclear-armed neighbor to the south.  They got the country, and the codes.  The show hasn't really addressed this, but if you think about it, the international community has a major threat on its hands with Gilead.  It would be like Ali Khamenei sitting in the white house with his finger on the button.  

I rewatched the episode last night and I think Serena wasn't just being clocked on the head by the falling freedom anvils, I think she also realized that she had NO good options.  Anywhere.  She said "so far all you've offered me is treason and coconuts."  If they had offered immunity I think it is something she would have considered.  But they didn't.  And never would have. She would have been arrested as a war criminal.  That CIA agent knew exactly who she was, what she had done, and wasn't interested in letting her write a book under a palm tree.  His whole "we can get you out, you can tell your story, you are a victim too" speech was nothing but a sales pitch.  Serena was never choosing that because she knew it was an empty promise.  She might be a horrendous human being, but she's a really really smart and savvy horrendous human being with a strong understanding of international affairs.   

I don't like the show trying to humanize Serena and make her a victim after all that she has done.  She has committed treason. She has been an active partipatant in state-sanctioned human traffiking, rape and kidnapping. She IS NOT a victim.  Period.  

 

Tourism tagline...it's not "hang onto your friends," it should be "come hang with your friends."

The Commander truly frightens me.  Literally - they have made him, over time, physically look and sound like the bad guy in nightmares.   

And on a side note:  my mother in law worked for an NGO that helped open eastern bloc countries after the fall of the Berlin Wall.  An american woman traveling through these countries, sometimes basically on her own..she absolutely refuses to talk about what she experienced.  My cousin spent a month in Syria while doing her doctorate (pre-pre-pre Arab spring) and says it was the most oppressive experience in her life, she felt like she couldn't breathe it was so bad. So...count me out for dark tourism.  It may be basic, but I can be perfectly satisified with a daiquiri in my hand and jimmy buffet playing at a pool bar.

 

ETA:  Eden!  I forgot about Eden!  I agree that the interaction with the guardian was strange...and oddly intimate.  Does anybody else suspect they already knew each other?  She's 15?  They established that he can't be more than 20?  Perhaps they grew up in the Sons of Jacob together....or know each other even more than that?  Maybe he was who she was hoping for as a husband and she got Nick instead.  Which may explain even further why after just a couple of days together as man and wife she was willing to label him a gender traitor and get him killed.  I realize that gets a little soap opera-esque but why else would she feed a guard strawberries off a spoon?  In Gilead, that's the equivalent of sipping on champagne together in a hot tub.  

Edited June 18, 2018 by Shangrilala

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, Shangrilala said:

If memory serves, in the epilogue of the book they talk about Canada and its relationship with Gilead briefly but they say that Canada was very careful not to anger its nuclear-armed neighbor to the south.  They got the country, and the codes.  The show hasn't really addressed this, but if you think about it, the international community has a major threat on its hands with Gilead.  It would be like Ali Khamenei sitting in the white house with his finger on the button.  

I rewatched the episode last night and I think Serena wasn't just being clocked on the head by the falling freedom anvils, I think she also realized that she had NO good options.  Anywhere.  She said "so far all you've offered me is treason and coconuts."  If they had offered immunity I think it is something she would have considered.  But they didn't.  And never would have. She would have been arrested as a war criminal.  That CIA agent knew exactly who she was, what she had done, and wasn't interested in letting her write a book under a palm tree.  His whole "we can get you out, you can tell your story, you are a victim too" speech was nothing but a sales pitch.  Serena was never choosing that because she knew it was an empty promise.  She might be a horrendous human being, but she's a really really smart and savvy horrendous human being with a strong understanding of international affairs.   

I don't like the show trying to humanize Serena and make her a victim after all that she has done.  She has committed treason. She has been an active partipatant in state-sanctioned human traffiking, rape and kidnapping. She IS NOT a victim.  Period.  

 

Tourism tagline...it's not "hang onto your friends," it should be "come hang with your friends."

The Commander truly frightens me.  Literally - they have made him, over time, physically look and sound like the bad guy in nightmares.   

And on a side note:  my mother in law worked for an NGO that helped open eastern bloc countries after the fall of the Berlin Wall.  An american woman traveling through these countries, sometimes basically on her own..she absolutely refuses to talk about what she experienced.  My cousin spent a month in Syria while doing her doctorate (pre-pre-pre Arab spring) and says it was the most oppressive experience in her life, she felt like she couldn't breathe it was so bad. So...count me out for dark tourism.  It may be basic, but I can be perfectly satisified with a daiquiri in my hand and jimmy buffet playing at a pool bar

Excellent point about the CIA guy, and Serena's comments "treason and coconuts" and dang, I've been kind of immersed in spy stuff, real and fictional, and in oppressive regimes lately too.  Watching The Americans made me very curious about reality versus fiction and prompted me to pick up my former interest in spies.  Spies lie, ALL the time.  How in the world did I miss that?

I mean, I considered that if they hadn't been kicked out of Canada after one day, Serena might have been more willing to talk about defecting, and she certainly would have brought up the immunity issues, she's not stupid.  Still, you are correct, he deliberately didn't put that on the table, and she did catch it, and I missed it.

This show, since it's dark both ways, has made me watch it as it airs, late night viewing though it makes it easier to see and satisfies my need to know "what happens next?"  Is completely fucking with my sleep patterns.  Between the horrors of real life right now, and watching what is essentially a horror show at night?  I end up staying up until after dawn, and it takes me days to readjust.  Today I'm finally back to "normal" but the show is tomorrow night.  I think I'm just going to wait, not watch it late, watch it the next day from now on.  I'm tired of nightmares and while I've always been a nightowl, I'm also tired of missing daytime because I'm sleeping or exhausted.

Wow about your sister and mom.  It's kind of too bad she won't talk about Syria, I'd be so fascinated about that time there, especially for an American woman.  I agree, I wouldn't want to be a Gilead tourist either, but I'm pretty sure, some would.

[Shangrilala]

Quote

Still, you are correct, he deliberately didn't put that on the table, and she did catch it, and I missed it.

I only caught it after reading the comments here, for what it's worth :)  And I honestly didn't even catch it fully until at the very end when she says that she wouldn't ever betray her country and he says that she already did.  He knew EXACTLY who he was dealing with and she knew what he was offering.  I also think he had to approach her as soon as he had an opportunity.  I don't think she was supposed to go into that bar, she was supposed to go to her room as a good woman does.  You get the window, and you take it.  I suppose he could ride an elevator with her, but I would assume that their floor has guards all over the place.  He couldn't approach her while she was admiring orchids with the Canadian handler, or while she was with anybody from Gilead.  What surprises me is that they allowed her the freedom to choose to even go into the bar.  I'd assume she'd have Gilead security with her at all times, even walking into the hotel.  But I guess the show took a few liberties there. 

[Umbelina]

31 minutes ago, Shangrilala said:

I only caught it after reading the comments here, for what it's worth :)  And I honestly didn't even catch it fully until at the very end when she says that she wouldn't ever betray her country and he says that she already did.  He knew EXACTLY who he was dealing with and she knew what he was offering.  I also think he had to approach her as soon as he had an opportunity.  I don't think she was supposed to go into that bar, she was supposed to go to her room as a good woman does.  You get the window, and you take it.  I suppose he could ride an elevator with her, but I would assume that their floor has guards all over the place.  He couldn't approach her while she was admiring orchids with the Canadian handler, or while she was with anybody from Gilead.  What surprises me is that they allowed her the freedom to choose to even go into the bar.  I'd assume she'd have Gilead security with her at all times, even walking into the hotel.  But I guess the show took a few liberties there. 

Oh definitely.  He was waiting in the lobby, and probably every place she went since she arrived in Gilead, just waiting for the opportunity to approach her.  He probably would have gone into the elevator with her as well.

I think Canada only allowed a SMALL delegation from Gilead, no honors, no visit with the Prime Minister, they weren't even in the capitol.  Security from Gilead stayed with the important person, the man.  Why would Canada bother to do anything more than courtesy "keep the wife entertained during the day" stuff though?  Once her husband was about to finish his meetings for the day, they just returned her to the hotel, and she, instead of going to her room, went to the bar.  She wasn't under guard.  Had they known or publicized that it was the famous Serena Joy from TV and books?  They might have.  By the time the protests really got going, Canada was kicking them both out anyway.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Umbelina

[mamadrama]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Oh definitely.  He was waiting in the lobby, and probably every place she went since she arrived in Gilead, just waiting for the opportunity to approach her.  He probably would have gone into the elevator with her as well.

I think Canada only allowed a SMALL delegation from Gilead, no honors, no visit with the Prime Minister, they weren't even in the capitol.  Security from Gilead stayed with the important person, the man.  Why would Canada bother to do anything more than courtesy "keep the wife entertained during the day" stuff though?  Once her husband was about to finish his meetings for the day, they just returned her to the hotel, and she, instead of going to her room, went to the bar.  She wasn't under guard.  Had they known or publicized that it was the famous Serena Joy from TV and books?  They might have.  By the time the protests really got going, Canada was kicking them both out anyway.

See, I thought the security would've come from Gilead. They have the guards trailing the Handmaids for their "protection" (which we know is really just about control) and I thought they would've done the same with Serena Joy. It would have been another way of showing that while, as a Wife, she may have the illusion of more freedom but in actuality she's in a prison as well. Someone upthread said that they wouldn't have done that, that they would've wanted to put on a good front for Canada, but I disagree. Women dignitaries from other countries come here all the time with their own bodyguards, it wouldn't have been anything new. That she could freely roman the hotel like that, even be allowed to ride the elevator alone, is contradictory to me from other things that we've seen. I personally feel like it was sloppy writing to create a needed opportunity. 

[chaifan]

When Serena was in the orchid garden with the Canadian woman, there were two guards from Gilead with them, trailing behind by about 10 feet or so.  Were they there to protect Serena or to control her?  (In Gilead, that's likely one and the same.)  Either way, it doesn't make sense that they were not somewhere around her in the hotel, at least until she got to her room.  The fact that she was allowed to go to a bar alone and have a conversation with Marc seemed very out of place.  If it was intentional, it could have been shown as such in 5 seconds.  But I think it was sloppy writing, the only way to set up the meeting with Marc.  That sort of disappoints me, as I think the show is better than that, and there should have been a room full of people in the writer's room shouting "hell no, she wouldn't be able to just sit in a bar (a bar!) alone".

[Umbelina]

I didn't notice the guards with her earlier in the day, but I'll take your word for it.

I honestly think I need a break from this show, at least for today, or I'd go back and watch it again.  Odd, because this was the first really hopeful episode in a long time, or at least, if not hopeful, satisfying because we got to see Fred and Serena rejected and humiliated, treated as the sickening oppressors they are.

I was surprised Serena was drinking in public, but then again, I don't really know how Gilead feels about wine, they may be OK with it, since it's in the bible and all.  (ahem)  I can just fan-wank it that the guards assumed she was on her way to her room, and took off to get dinner, or go pee.
 

After a bit of reflection, I'm taking the rest of my comments to the "Things I hate about the show" thread.

[Shangrilala]

Quote

Excellent point about the CIA guy, and Serena's comments "treason and coconuts" and dang, I've been kind of immersed in spy stuff, real and fictional, and in oppressive regimes lately too. 

If you like the Americans, read Nelson Demille's The Charm School.  Amazing book --- written in the 80s.  Consider it an Americans prequel.  

Quote

Odd, because this was the first really hopeful episode in a long time, or at least, if not hopeful, satisfying because we got to see Fred and Serena rejected and humiliated, treated as the sickening oppressors they are.

I felt somewhat satisfied by the episode, except for one shot.  When they did the overhead shot of the car trying to move from the crowd.....I wanted to see even bigger.  That was way to small for me, especially considering what we know about Gilead and the world reaction to the country.  

 

Quote

But I think it was sloppy writing, the only way to set up the meeting with Marc. 

It was definitely a plot-driven moment, not character driven.  Or Gilead driven.  The writers have taken some liberties when it comes to drinking alcohol, which according to the book, was completely banned and then shows up at Jezebels.  In the show, you see that the waterfords have a stash of alcohol in the kitchen that Serena has enjoyed before (and if memory serves, she shared a glass with Rita?), plus he has some in his office.  But for Serena to just waltz into a bar and order a Riesling?  It definitely didn't fit.  But I'm willing to overlook it because the conversation with Marc and Serena was so layered and nuanced and that zinger from him at the end was just pure perfection.  

[lezlers]

On ‎6‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 10:05 AM, dmc said:

I will say that until June got pregnant, I thought it was more of the wife's say.  Then the Lydia started lecturing Serena on smoking and the vibe in the house.  I got an entirely different impression which is there is a systematic way they do births for the "good" of the child.

I don't know if this has been answered yet since the thread has grown so much but Lydia SAID that it's the wife's decision.  Not sure why this is even a debate.  She stated quite clearly that it's Serena's prerogative.   Watch the scene again, it's right there.

[Lemons]

On 6/13/2018 at 9:55 AM, Becks said:

I have a feeling Hot Smoker Guy will return. Am I the only one who thinks there was some chemistry there?

 

The hot guy was definitely flirting with Serena.  Comparing that guy to her creepy scrawny nasty husband?  No contest.  

[Umbelina]

18 minutes ago, Lemons said:

The hot guy was definitely flirting with Serena.  Comparing that guy to her creepy scrawny nasty husband?  No contest.  

I think he was using whatever he had to get to her, as a spy would, including flirting.  I don't really think he was attracted to her though.

[Stephanie23]

I find it  also odd that Fred didn't found out about Serena's talk with a men (!) in a bar.

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, Stephanie23 said:

I find it  also odd that Fred didn't found out about Serena's talk with a men (!) in a bar.

Maybe he did, we didn't see them alone together until they were expelled. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

8 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

I wonder if there is an Oprah like person on TV in Canada?  Surely this sort of story would make for a huge ratings bump and Moira could get her story out there...why hasn't there been a Canadian Oprah show about the HM's and others that have escaped Gilead?

LOL, not in our reality!  But maybe in the Gilead one ;)

[Umbelina]

51 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

LOL, not in our reality!  But maybe in the Gilead one ;)

Canada is not the only country on earth, people could travel there at will, from all over the place.

In addition, famous people with their own jets and yachts would have already escaped from the USA when they started to confiscate their money, I'm positive they have offshore accounts, or most of them do.

Why isn't Oprah interviewing them from her home in the south of France?  Where are the activists like Angelina Jolie or other wealthy activists, male and female, or simply the newscasters that weren't slaughtered and did leave, or were on assignment overseas?  Why haven't they flooded into Canada, surely they would care, or at least want to sell articles or get themselves on TV.  Moira's story alone is a blockbuster.  Aside from that, the rest of the world has journalists as well.  Where's our Christian Amanpour?  Pick your headline. 

1. Black Woman Imprisoned as Sex Slave
2. Lesbian Forced into Male Sexual Servitude in "Holy" Gilead.
3. Black Lesbian Recounts Horror and Ritualized Rape in Gilead "Ceremony"
4. Moira, How and Why she Escaped Totalitarian Regime
5. Herstory in the Making, One Woman's Experience in Repressive Gilead

Or do Luke's

1. They are Raping my Wife!
2.  My Wife is Pregnant and My Daughter is Missing!

Or do a group of them.  Instead, our characters ask only some poor Canadian helper to fix everything, then get angry or mope that it doesn't happen.  Come on show, Gilead would have the attention of the world, and many expats who had enough money to escape would be shouting from the rooftops.  Why are we not seeing any of that?  There is no way I can imagine a world where the refugees in Canada weren't being besieged for interviews.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Umbelina

[mamadrama]

13 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Canada is not the only country on earth, people could travel there at will, from all over the place.

In addition, famous people with their own jets and yachts would have already escaped from the USA when they started to confiscate their money, I'm positive they have offshore accounts, or most of them do.

Why isn't Oprah interviewing them from her home in the south of France?  Where are the activists like Angelina Jolie or other wealthy activists, male and female, or simply the newscasters that weren't slaughtered and did leave, or were on assignment overseas?  Why haven't they flooded into Canada, surely they would care, or at least want to sell articles or get themselves on TV.  Moira's story alone is a blockbuster.  Aside from that, the rest of the world has journalists as well.  Where's our Christian Amanpour?  Pick your headline. 

1. Black Woman Imprisoned as Sex Slave
2. Lesbian Forced into Male Sexual Servitude in "Holy" Gilead.
3. Black Lesbian Recounts Horror and Ritualized Rape in Gilead "Ceremony"
4. Moira, How and Why she Escaped Totalitarian Regime
5. Herstory in the Making, One Woman's Experience in Repressive Gilead

Or do Luke's

1. They are Raping my Wife!
2.  My Wife is Pregnant and My Daughter is Missing!

Or do a group of them.  Instead, our characters ask only some poor Canadian helper to fix everything, then get angry or mope that it doesn't happen.  Come on show, Gilead would have the attention of the world, and many expats who had enough money to escape would be shouting from the rooftops.  Why are we not seeing any of that?  There is no way I can imagine a world where the refugees in Canada weren't being besieged for interviews.

Yeah, this is what I mean about me coming up with excuses and a certain level of suspension of disbelief. I keep coming up with things like this that bother me and then find myself explaining them away. I'm kind of tired of my own excuses, though. In my own head, they're starting to turn into plot holes. This shit is bugging the hell out of me. 

[Penman61]

On 6/13/2018 at 7:52 AM, tennisgurl said:

I really dont think Serena meant for Gilead to be quite as crazy as it is, with the no reading and all that, and she certainly meant for her to have more power than she actually does, but she still knew she was committing treason and murder, and she certainly knew that Gilead wasn't going to be an awesome place for everyone.

Very true, and made me immediately think of this:

 

[mamadrama]

Over on Reddit, someone did a summary of Yvonne's latest podcast. I am including it here because it specifically answers some things about this episode... (Not my summary. I'm stealing it from someone else. There were a couple of spoilery statements that didn't pertain to this epi and I removed them.)

Summary

The flirting with Toello was totally scripted with the goal of Serena being noticed in a sexual way for the first time in years.

Part of the reason she didn't take up his offer to defect was b/c she didn't trust that she would be safe.

Yvonne's own internal logic re: the June/Serena's up and down relationship is this: Serena is desperate for a friend but ONLY on her own terms. The second June violates those terms, which we've seen her do a few times, Serena over-corrects and rages.

Yvonne sees the Charlotte-Angela sickness as the death knell for the Serena/Fred relationship, and not the beating itself. She sees Serena as an ideologue in which the ultimate goal of Gilead is babies. When she understands that that's not Fred's agenda, they're over.

https://soundcloud.com/user-144236231/four-quadrant-podcast-40-yvonne-strahovski-on-the-handmaids-tale

[LittleRed84]

11 hours ago, mamadrama said:

They have the guards trailing the Handmaids for their "protection" (which we know is really just about control) and I thought they would've done the same with Serena Joy

She never has a guard follow her around Gilead. She comes and goes as she pleases. Her and June went to the hospital, on walks, to the Putnams, etc. 

The handmaids are guarded because both 1- they are prized possessions that try to escape or kill them selves 

2- one of them just set off a bomb

 

The wives don’t seem to require guarding. I thought her wandering around portrayed how little Fred values her. How men are the priority and she is a decoration that knits. 

[Becks]

5 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Over on Reddit, someone did a summary of Yvonne's latest podcast. I am including it here because it specifically answers some things about this episode... (Not my summary. I'm stealing it from someone else. There were a couple of spoilery statements that didn't pertain to this epi and I removed them.)

Summary

The flirting with Toello was totally scripted with the goal of Serena being noticed in a sexual way for the first time in years.

https://soundcloud.com/user-144236231/four-quadrant-podcast-40-yvonne-strahovski-on-the-handmaids-tale

Yes, this was the impression I got with the flirting - maybe it was premeditated as part of his whole spy schtick, but I did feel that there ended up being some chemistry and he did genuinely see her as a desirable woman (perhaps even despite himself, given his disdain for Gilead). I would not be surprised if something came of it - there were bits of possible foreshadowing throughout their conversation.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Becks

[laney]

On 6/17/2018 at 10:52 PM, marinw said:

California genrally tends to be very liberal and progressive, so I doubt the majority of Calafornians drank the Gilead Kool-Aid.

Massachusetts is pretty liberal, too, yet the story is Based in the Boston area.

[mamadrama]

8 hours ago, LittleRed84 said:

She never has a guard follow her around Gilead. She comes and goes as she pleases. Her and June went to the hospital, on walks, to the Putnams, etc. 

The handmaids are guarded because both 1- they are prized possessions that try to escape or kill them selves 

2- one of them just set off a bomb

 

The wives don’t seem to require guarding. I thought her wandering around portrayed how little Fred values her. How men are the priority and she is a decoration that knits. 

1. There were guards following the Handmaids long before the bombing. 

2. The Wives have also had guards following them on their "walks" through the neighborhood. (They were present when the women were outside and Naomi was complaining about Charangela. They were also in the hospital.) Their presence seems to be sporadic. 

[Pondlass1]

Lighting a cigarette in the bar seemed extremely odd.  Smokers have had to go outside for their addiction for ages now.  And the streets of Toronto seemed so empty. I live just north of the City - it's a busy place all the time.  Plus the crowds of protesters surely would have been way bigger - into the hundreds of thousands. They could have borrowed the footage of crowds from somewhere surely?

I'm really not quite understanding the Gilead/Canada thing.  The longest border in the world, and most of it unguarded.  

[LordOfLotion]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Canada is not the only country on earth, people could travel there at will, from all over the place.

In addition, famous people with their own jets and yachts would have already escaped from the USA when they started to confiscate their money, I'm positive they have offshore accounts, or most of them do.

Why isn't Oprah interviewing them from her home in the south of France?  Where are the activists like Angelina Jolie or other wealthy activists, male and female, or simply the newscasters that weren't slaughtered and did leave, or were on assignment overseas?  Why haven't they flooded into Canada, surely they would care, or at least want to sell articles or get themselves on TV.  Moira's story alone is a blockbuster.  Aside from that, the rest of the world has journalists as well.  Where's our Christian Amanpour?  Pick your headline. 

1. Black Woman Imprisoned as Sex Slave
2. Lesbian Forced into Male Sexual Servitude in "Holy" Gilead.
3. Black Lesbian Recounts Horror and Ritualized Rape in Gilead "Ceremony"
4. Moira, How and Why she Escaped Totalitarian Regime
5. Herstory in the Making, One Woman's Experience in Repressive Gilead

Or do Luke's

1. They are Raping my Wife!
2.  My Wife is Pregnant and My Daughter is Missing!

Or do a group of them.  Instead, our characters ask only some poor Canadian helper to fix everything, then get angry or mope that it doesn't happen.  Come on show, Gilead would have the attention of the world, and many expats who had enough money to escape would be shouting from the rooftops.  Why are we not seeing any of that?  There is no way I can imagine a world where the refugees in Canada weren't being besieged for interviews.

I'd like to see all of these. A book by Luke that another commander slams down on Waterford's desk, asking "WTF is this??" would be choice.

[Clanstarling]

5 hours ago, laney said:

On 6/17/2018 at 7:52 PM, marinw said:

California genrally tends to be very liberal and progressive, so I doubt the majority of Calafornians drank the Gilead Kool-Aid.

Massachusetts is pretty liberal, too, yet the story is Based in the Boston area.

There are pretty staunchly conservative areas in California. It's a blue state primarily because of the urban population. Same with Oregon. When I came up here I thought it was a liberal state - but where I live is a red county. Most rural ones are, at least here on the West Coast.

But you don't have to drink the Kool-Aid to get taken over. Enough of your fellow state dwellers with a plan and weapons can do the trick.

When Hitler was appointed Chancellor  he'd received only 36% of the vote (that was after a second run-off, where he received only 30% of the vote).  The president Von Hindenburg (53% of the vote) appointed him. But Hitler was a man with a plan, and we know what happened after that.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Clanstarling

[Shangrilala]

Quote

Plus the crowds of protesters surely would have been way bigger - into the hundreds of thousands. They could have borrowed the footage of crowds from somewhere surely?

That whole shot seemed so bizarre to me.  "We are planning a protest."  I guess that was just the US refugees protesting? I have a hard time believing that our Canadian neighbors wouldn't have been out there in droves, protesting Gilead, protesting the Commander and Serena and protesting that Canada ever considered allowing them to set foot on their soil - that entire tarmac should have been packed.  I actually thought it was a really poor choice on the part of the show. 

In the book, the rise of Gilead was meant to shock, horrify and but also terrify the world.  The show seems to be downplaying that right now. 

[Umbelina]

11 hours ago, laney said:

On 6/17/2018 at 7:52 PM, marinw said:

California genrally tends to be very liberal and progressive, so I doubt the majority of Calafornians drank the Gilead Kool-Aid.

Massachusetts is pretty liberal, too, yet the story is Based in the Boston area.

It's more of a city vs country thing in California, as it is in many states.  Most of California, if you go by land mass rather than population, is deeply Red.  Ditto Oregon and probably most states. 

6 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Lighting a cigarette in the bar seemed extremely odd.  Smokers have had to go outside for their addiction for ages now.  And the streets of Toronto seemed so empty. I live just north of the City - it's a busy place all the time.  Plus the crowds of protesters surely would have been way bigger - into the hundreds of thousands. They could have borrowed the footage of crowds from somewhere surely?

I'm really not quite understanding the Gilead/Canada thing.  The longest border in the world, and most of it unguarded.  

He did that deliberately to tempt her.  He knew she was a former smoker, it was an "in" to start talking to her.  He knew it was illegal to smoke inside.  A simply spy trick.

6 hours ago, Shangrilala said:

That whole shot seemed so bizarre to me.  "We are planning a protest."  I guess that was just the US refugees protesting? I have a hard time believing that our Canadian neighbors wouldn't have been out there in droves, protesting Gilead, protesting the Commander and Serena and protesting that Canada ever considered allowing them to set foot on their soil - that entire tarmac should have been packed.  I actually thought it was a really poor choice on the part of the show. 

In the book, the rise of Gilead was meant to shock, horrify and but also terrify the world.  The show seems to be downplaying that right now. 

Yeah, if you are going to do it, do it.  I certainly think Canadians would be at the protest as well, not just expats.  Or simply don't do a wide shot showing the small crowd size.  Or CGI in a larger crowd, honestly, with today's CGI capabilities, it's an easy and reasonably inexpensive thing to do.

[watch2much]

I'm just catching up with season 2.  binged all the episodes so far.  Fred is becoming more frightening.  His big project was bombed, his mission to Canada was a failure....and I believe one of the reasons he beat Serena so badly was not only because she and June did the writing and editing, but because he realized they did a better job than he does.  The pre-Gilead  Serena was clearly the star of the two....giving the talks, etc.  Deep down he's rightfully insecure....and that anger showed itself in the viciousness of the beating.

I agree Serena is just consumed by the thought of having a child...perhaps thinking her life will be different.  Sure, she'll have something other to do than knit and will finally get love and affection....hopefully, it will be a girl so maybe she will start thinking of what the child's life will be.

also, did anyone else think it was strange they'd take back handmaids who've worked at the Colonies?  breathing all those toxic fumes doesn't lend itself to perfect babies.

[marinw]

I just rewatched. Fred said something like he was working on an extradition treaty between Gilead and Canada, that would compel Canada to deport Gilead refugees. Yeesh. I’m so glad that didn’t happen! 

[Umbelina]

13 minutes ago, marinw said:

I just rewatched. Fred said something like he was working on an extradition treaty between Gilead and Canada, that would compel Canada to deport Gilead refugees. Yeesh. I’m so glad that didn’t happen! 

Fred's pipe-dream, in my opinion, Canada wanted something from Fred so was toying with him.  I think Serena's look after that exchange implied she knew it too, as well as what a completely inept fool she married.

[Kel Varnsen]

The whole diplomatic mission and talk about trade with Canada had me wondering; what exactly would Gilead have to offer in trade. I looked it up and currently 47% of the US work force is women. In Gilead those workers are gone along with anyone Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, or LGBT. Plus all the people who disagreed and fought against Gilead. Plus all the people who needed to become soldiers, guardians and eyes to control the population. Plus all the people who still live in Alaska and Hawaii. So i would think that maybe the workforce might be 35% what it is now (possibly lower),  so how is Gilead producing a surplus on anything that they can trade?

Especially if you figure that Gilead seems to be anti-education, what with hanging people at universities and all, which probably killed any high tech industries. So other than hand knit clothes and scarves, what do they have that Canada might want?

[Shangrilala]

Oranges?

[Umbelina]

20 minutes ago, Shangrilala said:

Oranges?

No.  They barely have oranges themselves, and then, only rarely.

Good question @Kel Varnsen, what would they have?  They obviously don't have much electrical power, and whatever oil they still have from Texas, etc. they need to keep, since they closed down all nuclear power and can't get oil from the middle east or Russia to run plants or factories in mass. 

Hell, they don't even have enough wheat "This will be the last wheat bread of the year."

Maybe confiscated money and jewels?  Gold from Fort Knox which they now control?

Edited June 20, 2018 by Umbelina