Hero Fails: Supposedly Heroic Characters Who Are Actually Awful

[Mabinogia]

I was always on Team Jeanie Bueller. I really couldn't stand Farris. 

[Spartan Girl]

Roseanne's character in She-Devil.  Don't get me wrong, her asshole cheating husband and his mistress deserved everything they got and worse, but the fact that in order to get started on her revenge plan, she burned down their house and ditched left the kids with their jerk father.  What did those poor kids ever do to deserve having all their toys and clothes, etc destroyed like that?  At least she didn't kill the dog, but still...

[memememe76]

Good Will Hunting. I HATED Matt Damon's character. I generally resent/despise naturally gifted people, who are then burdened by such gifts. Gah. That "How 'bout dem apples" scene had me seething. He is so obnoxious. 

The same for Ladybird. How she got into an elite east coast school is beyond me. 

[Shannon L.]

18 hours ago, memememe76 said:

Good Will Hunting. I HATED Matt Damon's character. I generally resent/despise naturally gifted people, who are then burdened by such gifts. Gah. That "How 'bout dem apples" scene had me seething. He is so obnoxious. 

See, I never thought he was supposed to be a hero, though.  He was the tragic character.  Robin Williams was the hero, imo.  Will was understandably bothersome and I shifted between wanting to hug him and strangle him.  As for him thinking of his gift as a burden, his best friend and his therapist both kicked his ass over that one and it finally sunk in.  I did like the "apples" scene because that asshole in the bar was being condescending as hell and deliberately trying to embarrass them because of the assumption that blue collar workers couldn't possibly be smart or worthy of an upper class woman's attention.  Fuck him.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Shannon L.

[GreekGeek]

It probably says more about me than about them, but I usually find myself not rooting for those "screw the rules" "free spirit" types.

Maude in Harold and Maude stealing cars and then making the policeman stopping her into the bad guy irked me no end. Yes, yes, it was the 70's and authority figures were stand-ins for leaders who got us into Vietnam, but still... If there's anything more annoying than a Manic Pixie Dream Girl, it's a Manic Pixie Senior Citizen.

McMurphy in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest wouldn't have bothered me as much if he had stood up against a man running the ward. I'm willing to blame the misogyny on Ken Kesey's vision and not the movie, though.

Maybe off topic, but the comments about Ferris Bueller above made me think it wasn't such a preposterous idea that Matthew Broderick was considered for the part of Walter White. It's not such a huge leap from Ferris's anarchy to Heisenberg's.

Edited September 2, 2018 by GreekGeek

[methodwriter85]

I'm not sure I entirely agree with this, but there's pretty strong sentiment that Sierra Burgess is An Awful Person.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Putting this here since I just saw this on Netflix:

Peter Rabbit. I mean Peter, the Rabbit. He’s obnoxious, self-absorbed and the ABSOLUTE WORST. And I’m pretty sure he’s supposed to be the hero of this movie. McGregor was almost as bad, but not the outright villain, Like his great-Uncle.

Now I want to go read the original, because I’m pissed at how the story was changed.

Edited September 30, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[Wiendish Fitch]

9 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Putting this here since I just saw this on Netflix:

Peter Rabbit. I mean Peter, the Rabbit. He’s obnoxious, self-absorbed and the ABSOLUTE WORST. And I’m pretty sure he’s supposed to be the hero of this movie. McGregor was almost as bad, but not the outright villain, Luke his great-Uncle.

Now I want to go read the original, because I’m pissed at how the story was changed.

Just the trailer for that damn thing made me sick. I could learn to hate James Corden as much as everyone else does. Is Rose Byrne's Bea supposed to be... Beatrix Potter? In the modern day?! Um, the screenwriters do know that Beatrix Potter was a real person, right?

And wasn't the point of the book that Peter Rabbit was a naughty and disobedient brat who should have listened to his mom, and that Mr. McGregor was just a farmer who wanted rabbits to stay out of his garden? I think rabbits are adorable (real ones, not icky CGI ones), but I completely understand what a nuisance they are to farmers and gardeners.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Just the trailer for that damn thing made me sick. I could learn to hate James Corden as much as everyone else does. Is Rose Byrne's Bea supposed to be... Beatrix Potter? In the modern day?! Um, the screenwriters do know that Beatrix Potter was a real person, right?

And wasn't the point of the book that Peter Rabbit was a naughty and disobedient brat who should have listened to his mom, and that Mr. McGregor was just a farmer who wanted rabbits to stay out of his garden? I think rabbits are adorable (real ones, not icky CGI ones), but I completely understand what a nuisance they are to farmers and gardeners.

Whaaat?? That totally went over my head! This movie portrayed Old McGregor as a serial rabbit murderer who killed Peter, Flopsy, Mopsy, and Cottontail’s parents. And where in fandangle did Benjamin come from? The pool of token obese animals???????

[Wiendish Fitch]

3 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Whaaat?? That totally went over my head! This movie portrayed Old McGregor as a serial rabbit murderer who killed Peter, Flopsy, Mopsy, and Cottontail’s parents. And where in fandangle did Benjamin come from? The pool of token obese animals???????

Asshole protagonists, farmers who murder cute li'l bunnies, bestiality (seriously, the trailer implies Peter Rabbit has the hots for human Bea), bullying, destruction of property, FUN FOR THE WHOLE FAMILY!!

I ask you all, what are screenwriters smoking/snorting/shooting up?

[GHScorpiosRule]

16 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Asshole protagonists, farmers who murder cute li'l bunnies, bestiality (seriously, the trailer implies Peter Rabbit has the hots for human Bea), bullying, destruction of property, FUN FOR THE WHOLE FAMILY!!

I ask you all, what are screenwriters smoking/snorting/shooting up?

Yes, Peter did! Blech!

Ans you should see the reviews on imdb! Saying this is NOT violent! And used Bugs Bunny as an example in a negative way. That if you love Bugs who was “unfairly violent” then you’re hypocrites for not liking this movie. Never mind the fact that Bugs was acting in a similar way to prevent Elmer, Taz or Sam from having him for rabbit Stew. ?????

[Spartan Girl]

Jesus, this sounds worse than I thought. I will not even watch this shit show when it comes on TV.

[GHScorpiosRule]

41 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Jesus, this sounds worse than I thought. I will not even watch this shit show when it comes on TV.

The only good thing about it was seeing Marianne Jean Baptiste from Without A Trace as the General Manager of Harrod’s speaking in her natural accent! But this is almost two hours I’m never gonna get back.

Edited October 1, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[HunterHunted]

8 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

The only good thing about it was seeing Marianne Jean Baptiste from Cold Case as the General Manager of Harrod’s speaking in her natural accent! But this is almost two hours I’m never gonna get back.

She was on Without a Trace aka the show where no one was allowed to use their real accents. Anthony LaPaglia and Poppy Montgomery are Australian. Marianne is British. Roslyn Sanchez was born and raised in Puerto Rico.

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

She was on Without a Trace aka the show where no one was allowed to use their real accents. Anthony LaPaglia and Poppy Montgomery are Australian. Marianne is British. Roslyn Sanchez was born and raised in Puerto Rico.

D’OH!!! You’re right!!! I knew that didn’t look right! All fixed!!????

[Wiendish Fitch]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yes, Peter did! Blech!

Ans you should see the reviews on imdb! Saying this is NOT violent! And used Bugs Bunny as an example in a negative way. That if you love Bugs who was “unfairly violent” then you’re hypocrites for not liking this movie. Never mind the fact that Bugs was acting in a similar way to prevent Elmer, Taz or Sam from having him for rabbit Stew. ?????

Preach! Say what you want about Bugs Bunny, but any douchebag behavior on his part was 100% motivated. Sure, he could be ruthless, but I dare anyone to say Elmer, Taz, Sam, or even Daffy (whom I loved) weren't begging for it! Bugs finished fights, he rarely started them. Peter, just from the trailer, seemed like a vile little shit-stirrer.

And will Hollywood please stop casting poor Rose Byrne as boring, superfluous love interests? She's way too good for that crap!

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Preach! Say what you want about Bugs Bunny, but any douchebag behavior on his part was 100% motivated. Sure, he could be ruthless, but I dare anyone to say Elmer, Taz, Sam, or even Daffy (whom I loved) weren't begging for it! Bugs finished fights, he rarely started them. Peter, just from the trailer, seemed like a vile little shit-stirrer.

And will Hollywood please stop casting poor Rose Byrne as boring, superfluous love interests? She's way too good for that crap!

Plus, Bugs almost always said: “Ain’t I Stinker?”, which told me he was aware what he was doing was wrong. Same cannot be said for Peter.

My favorite time when he stopped tormenting the Villain was in the Red Riding Hood one-Red was BEYOND ANNOYYYYYYING, and I cheered when he switched Wolf under all that furniture with Red, while he and Wolf had their arms around each other’s’ shoulders and sharing a carrot. And watching Red be quiet finally.??????????

Edited October 1, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[xls]

Black Panther didn't impress me much, pretty much standard comic book hero. the women warriors were much more stand out.

[Mabinogia]

15 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

And will Hollywood please stop casting poor Rose Byrne as boring, superfluous love interests? She's way too good for that crap!

Is she? I've only ever seen her as basically set dressing. I wasn't sure she even could act. Poor thing. She's very pretty though, in a very safe, non-threatening way, which is probably why she keeps getting such dull characters to play.

I honestly never read Peter Rabbit so I have no idea what the movie would be like but you all are terrifying me. LOL Really, though, it just sounds like a horrible movie.

[tennisgurl]

9 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Is she? I've only ever seen her as basically set dressing. I wasn't sure she even could act. Poor thing. She's very pretty though, in a very safe, non-threatening way, which is probably why she keeps getting such dull characters to play.

 

Poor Rose Byrne is actually really good, if the writing gives her anything to work with. I thought she was really funny in Bridesmaids and Neighbors, and was really good in Damages, but her sweet,girl next door looks seems to get her cast as bland love interests a lot. I never saw Peter Rabbit because it looked fucking awful, and nothing I have heard about it has convinced me otherwise. 

As far as supposedly good guys who are actually assholes, I know that this started from the book, but its legit for the films too (maybe even more so), but Snape from the Harry Potter movies/books is a dickhead, no matter how things ended. Yeah he turned out to be on the side of good, but it was only after he got friendzoned by his long time crush from childhood, and she stopped talking to him when he called her a racial slur, and then he ended up joining the Death Eaters, and only changed his tune when he found out the woman he was still hung up on was going to die. All those other innocent people? Her husband and infant son, even when it would break her heart? They can all go choke, but when the women he refuses to get over is in trouble? Oh shit, all hands on deck! Then when he becomes a teacher, he is a bullying jerk to most of his students, for no reason, and routinely makes kids and teenagers cry with how cruel he is to his own innocent students, and treats the son of his dead crush like garbage because he is bitter as fuck that she didnt like him back, even though he never did anything, and is in general a petty jerk. Yeah, I can appreciate that he seemed to be genuine in his turning good later on, and he was certainly brave, and I can appropriate then adding complexity to his character, but the posthumous love that he got as this amazing, heroic good guy is just way too much. 

[HunterHunted]

33 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I know that this started from the book, but its legit for the films too (maybe even more so), but Snape from the Harry Potter movies/books is a dickhead, no matter how things ended. Yeah he turned out to be on the side of good, but it was only after he got friendzoned by his long time crush from childhood, and she stopped talking to him when he called her a racial slur, and then he ended up joining the Death Eaters, and only changed his tune when he found out the woman he was still hung up on was going to die. All those other innocent people? Her husband and infant son, even when it would break her heart? They can all go choke, but when the women he refuses to get over is in trouble?

Not even the Sound of Music is maudlin enough to try to pull this shit. Rolfe was a low level Nazi messenger. Snape was a fairly highly placed Death Eater. He was complicit and completely fine with the torture and murder of countless people. And then...he hears Lily Potter's name on the kill list and he's like "Noooooooooo! Not the girl who gave me my first boner." That's some real nonsense. He's still a bona fide genuine bad guy. I've maintained that the only real redemptive thing he ever did is express his horror at Dumbledore for raising Harry knowing full well that Harry had to die at the end.

But this "Always" meme where people act like it's the sign of some grand deep abiding love, is deeply offensive. If Snape cared so much for Lily, he would never have become a Death Eater, especially since he knew that she and the original Order of the Phoenix were actively trying to stop Voldemort and the Death Eater. Snape didn't love or respect Lily. He's a petulant "nice guy" douchebag. It reminds me of the Capponi/Biederman story. You don't get to be the good guy by superficially doing the "right thing." 

[kathyk24]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Poor Rose Byrne is actually really good, if the writing gives her anything to work with. I thought she was really funny in Bridesmaids and Neighbors, and was really good in Damages, but her sweet,girl next door looks seems to get her cast as bland love interests a lot. I never saw Peter Rabbit because it looked fucking awful, and nothing I have heard about it has convinced me otherwise. 

As far as supposedly good guys who are actually assholes, I know that this started from the book, but its legit for the films too (maybe even more so), but Snape from the Harry Potter movies/books is a dickhead, no matter how things ended. Yeah he turned out to be on the side of good, but it was only after he got friendzoned by his long time crush from childhood, and she stopped talking to him when he called her a racial slur, and then he ended up joining the Death Eaters, and only changed his tune when he found out the woman he was still hung up on was going to die. All those other innocent people? Her husband and infant son, even when it would break her heart? They can all go choke, but when the women he refuses to get over is in trouble? Oh shit, all hands on deck! Then when he becomes a teacher, he is a bullying jerk to most of his students, for no reason, and routinely makes kids and teenagers cry with how cruel he is to his own innocent students, and treats the son of his dead crush like garbage because he is bitter as fuck that she didnt like him back, even though he never did anything, and is in general a petty jerk. Yeah, I can appreciate that he seemed to be genuine in his turning good later on, and he was certainly brave, and I can appropriate then adding complexity to his character, but the posthumous love that he got as this amazing, heroic good guy is just way too much. 

Exactly I never understood how you could excuse Snape's behavior toward his students. He hates Harry on sight not ever trying to learn what Harry knows about his family. He bullies Neville so much that he becomes part of Neville's bogart.

[tennisgurl]

12 minutes ago, kathyk24 said:

Exactly I never understood how you could excuse Snape's behavior toward his students. He hates Harry on sight not ever trying to learn what Harry knows about his family. He bullies Neville so much that he becomes part of Neville's bogart.

What makes his bullying behavior towards Neville even worse is that Snape used to pal around with the Lestranges, who are the people who kidnapped and tortured Nevills parents until they were no mentally scarred they ended up in a mental institution, unable to even speak, when Neville was a baby. And Snape totally knows exactly who Neville is, and what his old buddies did to his parents, and yet he regularly still treats him like garbage. What a dick. 

[andromeda331]

Eddy and Mary from the Wedding Planner. Eddy is the groom in the wedding Mary is planning. So you know engaged to be married. When they meet Mary doesn't know this. He saves her from being hit by a car when her heel gets stuck in the middle of the street. He flirts with her afterwards and accepts her invitation to the movies where more flirting happens. No, he doesn't mention at all he's engaged until Mary shows up at the place where he and his fiancée are having dance lessons. Mary naturally is furious but Eddy acts like a jackass by acting like she misinterpreted everything and acting like he did nothing wrong. Bull, you lead her on and could have told her at any moment that you were engaged. He continues to hit on Mary throughout the movie and acts jealous when Mary's fiancé shows up while also going off on Mary for doing the same thing he's doing. Zero signs he wants to be married. Zero signs he cares at all about his fiancé and the last scene with his fiancée he acts like his making a big gesture by going through with the wedding if its what she really wants. Bull. No, Fran calls off their wedding. But not because she ever found out what he was doing. But she decided on her own she didn't want to marry him.

What about Mary?  Well, for one she never tells Fran what her fiancé is up too and never really considers it. Even though he keeps hitting on her. She leads on her fake fiancé Massimo in order to make Eddy jealous. He's a fake fiancé because her father picked him out and shipped him over from Italy. She keeps turning him down until he shows up at the winery where she decides to use him to make Eddy jealous. So now Massimo thinks they really are engaged.  Then decides to marry the fake fiancé she's not in love with for...reasons? Yeah, her dad told her he and her mother were arranged but there was really still no reason to marry someone she doesn't love or even really like. It also turns out Mary's been down this road before. Her own fiancé got back together with his ex at their rehearsal dinner. So there really is zero reason for her not have nipped it the bud and told Fran exactly what was going on. Or to fall for any of Eddy's crap. Her wedding gets called off by her father and her Massimo. Eddy finds Mary at the park where she invited him to watch a movie earlier in the movie. So...yeah they are together? What exactly is preventing Eddy from doing the same thing to Mary that he did to Fran? Why would Mary want to end up with someone who cheated on his last fiancé when she already had that happen to her? Also, what exactly is charming about Eddy? Sure he's a doctor, can dance and likes movies. But repeatedly acts like a jackass throughout the movie. At least Fran dodged a bullet. And they didn't make Fran some horrible bitch. 

[Spartan Girl]

THANK YOU @andromeda331, that's why I fucking hate that movie!

[Mabinogia]

I don't understand how that was a "romantic" movie. Ugh Such a terrible premise.

[PepSinger]

It's funny because everything you said about The Wedding Planner is true, but I still love that movie. Problematic fave.

[Browncoat]

All of that, @andromeda331, plus they waste about a million perfectly good M&Ms!

[proserpina65]

On ‎09‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 8:30 PM, Wiendish Fitch said:

And will Hollywood please stop casting poor Rose Byrne as boring, superfluous love interests? She's way too good for that crap!

She was terrific as the villainess in SPY.  I wish they would cast her in more roles like that.  She does physical comedy very well.

15 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

You don't get to be the good guy by superficially doing the "right thing." 

As fascinating as I found him to be, I'm not sure Snape was ever intended to be a good guy, either in the books or the movies.  And definitely shouldn't be considered one.

[HunterHunted]

@andromeda331 that movie is just filled with colossal assholes, including Mary's father who ships over this mail order groom without telling her and even measures Mary for a wedding dress in her sleep. I think the A plot with Mary, Eddy, and Fran is bad, but the inclusion of Massimo, the mail order groom, just catapults the movie to terrible. Her father's sudden insistence that Mary be married comes out of nowhere. Casting the not at all Italian Justin Chambers was a disastebacle. Super Mario comes across more credibly Italian than Chambers. And Mary's weird about face where she gives up on life and love and decides to marry this overbearing cartoon character is a big old huh?

Fran is also this insane study in contradictions. She's super busy and slightly type A, but insanely hands off when it comes to situations where Eddy and Mary will be alone together. She's too busy to attend the dance class where she and her future husband will be learning the choreography of their first dance (and of course Mary, one of the top wedding planners in the city, doesn't stop and arrange for them to get private lessons at a time of their convenience), but Fran has all the time in the world to take a trip to Napa to look at a venue, have a drunken leisurely lunch, and a long horse back ride.

And my all time favorite dangling plot thread is that Mary continues to work on Fran and Eddy's doomed wedding because it's the only way she'll make partner, but there's literally no urgency for this. I believe Mary is the one who suggests it and her boss is like "ok. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯." It's not like her boss is constantly hovering over Mary.

The only characters that I actually like in the film are Fran's drunken parents and her father's scrabble friends who keep chastising her dad for his arranged marriage stupidity.

[scarynikki12]

Snape’s only a good guy in the eyes of his apologists. If Rowling intended us to see him as such she wouldn’t have written him as so unambiguously awful to non-Slytherins and Dumbledore. She made it clear that Snape screwed up his friendship with Lily all on his own. James didn’t steal her away or trick her into marrying him. No spell was cast to make Lily dislike Snape. No, he’s an ass and she reached her breaking point and was done. My kind of storytelling. 

[festivus]

I'm trying to remember if I've ever seen The Wedding Planner.  It sounds horrible!

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, HunterHunted said:

@andromeda331 that movie is just filled with colossal assholes, including Mary's father who ships over this mail order groom without telling her and even measures Mary for a wedding dress in her sleep. I think the A plot with Mary, Eddy, and Fran is bad, but the inclusion of Massimo, the mail order groom, just catapults the movie to terrible. Her father's sudden insistence that Mary be married comes out of nowhere. Casting the not at all Italian Justin Chambers was a disastebacle. Super Mario comes across more credibly Italian than Chambers. And Mary's weird about face where she gives up on life and love and decides to marry this overbearing cartoon character is a big old huh?

Fran is also this insane study in contradictions. She's super busy and slightly type A, but insanely hands off when it comes to situations where Eddy and Mary will be alone together. She's too busy to attend the dance class where she and her future husband will be learning the choreography of their first dance (and of course Mary, one of the top wedding planners in the city, doesn't stop and arrange for them to get private lessons at a time of their convenience), but Fran has all the time in the world to take a trip to Napa to look at a venue, have a drunken leisurely lunch, and a long horse back ride.

And my all time favorite dangling plot thread is that Mary continues to work on Fran and Eddy's doomed wedding because it's the only way she'll make partner, but there's literally no urgency for this. I believe Mary is the one who suggests it and her boss is like "ok. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯." It's not like her boss is constantly hovering over Mary.

The only characters that I actually like in the film are Fran's drunken parents and her father's scrabble friends who keep chastising her dad for his arranged marriage stupidity.

Those were the only ones I liked too. Fran's drunken parents were hilarious and really seemed like fun people to hang out with. Her father's scrabble friends at least they realized how stupid their friend's arrange marriage plan was and kept trying to tell him that. The rest was just awful. Dad shipping a man over to marry his daughter, even though there's really no reason for it. Mary not telling Fran what her fiancée was doing and for some reason being charmed by Eddy despite him being an ass most of the time and hitting on her and having gone through that before. Massimo being really up for this arrange marriage even though he hasn't seen Mary since they were kids and she's clearly not interested.  Eddy instead of apologizing for leading her on acting like he did nothing wrong and she misinterpreted everything and continues to hit on Mary and be jealous when he thinks she's engaged. Why is he even getting married? Clearly he doesn't give a crap about his fiancée. Nothing about Mary's boss suggested this was a wedding she had to work on and she couldn't quit the wedding and work another one to get her promotion. Fran seems nice but yes why would she leave her wedding in the hands of other people? She has work think that comes up and requires her to be away for awhile? But hey at least while she was away she started to have doubts so she can call off the wedding. Certainly better then Eddy calling it off to run after another woman or Mary to tell her what's going on. That might make both look bad and Fran wondering why Mary waited so long to tell her that her fiancé was repeatedly hitting on her. 

3 hours ago, Browncoat said:

All of that, @andromeda331, plus they waste about a million perfectly good M&Ms!

Yes they did! Who throws out perfectly good M&Ms? That's should have been a sign right there that Eddy was bad news.

[dusang]

In addition to everything already said about The Wedding Planner, to this day I'm unclear if Mary's father and Massimo were meant to be developmentally delayed or if that's just what Hollywood thinks "Italian" is! It is so bad.

The only good moment is near the beginning as JLo walks through the office and a bride-to-be has like self-tanner stain all over her face and is weeping because the wedding is days away. JLo pauses, gives her a quick recipe (vinegar or something) and just says "scrub, scrub, scrub" while miming circles on her cheeks - it's a very small moment but I love it.

[scarynikki12]

The Wedding Planner is one of those movies that I have inexplicable affection for.  I think it's cause all the actors had a lot of charm that rose above their characters.  Steve is objectively awful and should never be in a relationship but I love his entrance into Mary's room at the hospital and how he relates to the kids.  I think Mary's supposed to be super cynical due to her own experience and all that she's seen in her line of work (her firm bets on when the couples file for divorce and everything), and Fran's wedding got her the partnership she'd been seeking, so I can understand her telling herself "it's their lives" when she encounters the red flags.  JLo still brings the charm in spite of Mary's cynicism and I love watching her opposite her father and their friends and when she's in wedding planner mode.  Her calming down the FOB at the first wedding, feeding the Best Man his speech at another, hiding Fran's mom's lucky microphone, and just rolling with all the changes that were thrown her way were excellent demonstrations of her competency.  And I so want to attend a wedding based on that first one she came up with for Fran.  It sounds stunning. 

Oh, and Mary's recipe is: a quarter cup of lemon juice, half a cup of salt, and a loofah.  Then scrub scrub scrub.  I also adore that scene.

[HunterHunted]

I also find the statue shopping scene hilarious because that's a thing that people typically do for weddings and not just pick a venue that has statues. This movie sometimes feels like it was written and directed by people have never been in a relationship or planned a wedding, let alone been to a wedding.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/justinabarca/this-is-what-happens-when-two-dudes-watch-a-jennifer-lopez-m

[kathyk24]

11 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

Snape’s only a good guy in the eyes of his apologists. If Rowling intended us to see him as such she wouldn’t have written him as so unambiguously awful to non-Slytherins and Dumbledore. She made it clear that Snape screwed up his friendship with Lily all on his own. James didn’t steal her away or trick her into marrying him. No spell was cast to make Lily dislike Snape. No, he’s an ass and she reached her breaking point and was done. My kind of storytelling. 

I think some Harry Potter fans like Snape due to Allen Rickman. I wish Harry had met a friend of Lilly's I wanted to know how she progressed from hating James and Sirius to becoming part of her family.

[Mabinogia]

I like Snape due to Alan Rickman. I also found him fascinating as a character. I don't think he was a good person and wouldn't be friends with him IRL but as a character he was one of the more complex in the series. The "hero" I couldn't stand in Harry Potter was sanctimonious, hypocritical Dumbledore. He was one of those, if you think about it, he's not nearly the nice guy he pretends to be, types. A lot of the stress and pain Harry went through could have been avoided if Dumbledore hadn't been such an ass.

[Spartan Girl]

Charlies Xavier/Professor X in all the X-Men movies definitely belongs on this list, because he has a pretty long list of crappy choices and epic fails:

• messing with Jean's mind in The Last Stand (a mistake he apparently repeats in Dark Phoenix)
• wiping out Moira's memory's in First Class
• Letting almost all of his First Class students be captured/tortured/killed by the government and failing to do anything about except become a junkie and stew in self pity in Days of Future Past
• Killing pretty much all of the X-Men in Logan -- okay, maybe that wasn't completely his fault due his dementia-addled mind, but still

[Danny Franks]

14 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Charlies Xavier/Professor X in all the X-Men movies definitely belongs on this list, because he has a pretty long list of crappy choices and epic fails:

• messing with Jean's mind in The Last Stand (a mistake he apparently repeats in Dark Phoenix)
• wiping out Moira's memory's in First Class
• Letting almost all of his First Class students be captured/tortured/killed by the government and failing to do anything about except become a junkie and stew in self pity in Days of Future Past
• Killing pretty much all of the X-Men in Logan -- okay, maybe that wasn't completely his fault due his dementia-addled mind, but still

In all that, at least, the X-Men movies have been faithful to the source material. Charles Xavier has a long history of high-handed dickery, in the comics. From the early days when he was perving over teenage Jean Grey, to all the times he faked his death for dumb reasons, to the time he got an entire X-Men team killed, then erased everyone's memories of it.

[PepSinger]

16 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

The Wedding Planner is one of those movies that I have inexplicable affection for.  I think it's cause all the actors had a lot of charm that rose above their characters.  Steve is objectively awful and should never be in a relationship but I love his entrance into Mary's room at the hospital and how he relates to the kids.  I think Mary's supposed to be super cynical due to her own experience and all that she's seen in her line of work (her firm bets on when the couples file for divorce and everything), and Fran's wedding got her the partnership she'd been seeking, so I can understand her telling herself "it's their lives" when she encounters the red flags.  JLo still brings the charm in spite of Mary's cynicism and I love watching her opposite her father and their friends and when she's in wedding planner mode.  Her calming down the FOB at the first wedding, feeding the Best Man his speech at another, hiding Fran's mom's lucky microphone, and just rolling with all the changes that were thrown her way were excellent demonstrations of her competency.  And I so want to attend a wedding based on that first one she came up with for Fran.  It sounds stunning. 

Oh, and Mary's recipe is: a quarter cup of lemon juice, half a cup of salt, and a loofah.  Then scrub scrub scrub.  I also adore that scene.

You've nailed it. The actors rise above their characters with their charm. In the hands of less charismatic actors, this movie would be terrible. Like, I love when Steve is describing the spike through his sister's chin; when they all object to Mary's wedding with Massimo; when Steve swerves the car when Fran mentions the man that Mary liked "Damn deer in the road!" I still LOL at those moments.

I will third the notion of adoring the "scrub, scrub, scrub" scene. :) It's very cute. I aspire to be as put together as Mary.

Edited October 3, 2018 by PepSinger

[scarynikki12]

I watched the movie again last night because of this thread and I have no regrets.

I did catch that Steve could have easily brought up Fran in his office when Mary was clearly fishing to find out if he’s single. Once he clarified that the photo was of his sister he could have followed with “I’d show you a picture of my fiancé but she gets nervous about photos and only gets them taken if she absolutely has to like when we have our wedding”. That would be in line with Fran’s comment about looking like a spastic poodle in the picture Mary saw in that magazine and make Steve less awful. They still could have gone to the movie and slowly fallen for each other but why have all the cards on the table when we can have characters throw up the red flags? 

[andromeda331]

57 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

I watched the movie again last night because of this thread and I have no regrets.

I did catch that Steve could have easily brought up Fran in his office when Mary was clearly fishing to find out if he’s single. Once he clarified that the photo was of his sister he could have followed with “I’d show you a picture of my fiancé but she gets nervous about photos and only gets them taken if she absolutely has to like when we have our wedding”. That would be in line with Fran’s comment about looking like a spastic poodle in the picture Mary saw in that magazine and make Steve less awful. They still could have gone to the movie and slowly fallen for each other but why have all the cards on the table when we can have characters throw up the red flags? 

That would have been much better. Then Mary would have known right away he was engaged and he wouldn't look like a lying creep for never telling until she met Fran and her fiancé.  Maybe they still go to the movie as friends for example he could say Fran was busy that night or call Fran to join them but she has to work late but it ends when they both realize their flirting. Instead of Eddy being a jackass while their dancing by saying she misinterpreted everything and he did nothing wrong. They could been just acting nervous after the movie or maybe both trying apologize for the flirting.  I'm not a fan of the falling in love with one or both are in relationships with other people but there's ways to do without making them look awful. Like have Eddy mention at the dance lessons that Mary was the patient he told Fran about. Since he normally deals with children and saved Mary's life while also showing that he doesn't keep things from Fran. Show a few signs and hints as to why Eddy and Fran are going to break up at the end of the movie so it comes of more organic. Maybe they both want different things or wanted the same things at one point but now they don't. Maybe Eddy wants kids and Fran thought she did but now isn't so sure. Give Fran a better reason to be away and use it as a tie into why Eddy and Fran break up. Like while she's away they both re-think their relationship maybe realize the holes or problems or aren't in love and haven't been for a long time. Or maybe when she gets back maybe they break up or try really hard to make it work only to realize its over. Ditch the Massimo story and throwing away perfectly good M&Ms completely. Have a couple more scenes with Fran's parents because they were just so much fun.

Edited October 3, 2018 by andromeda331

[Snow Apple]

I remember when the movie version of The Phantom of the Opera came out and all these teenage girls and grown women were swooning over the phantom on message boards and how they would have stayed with him. 

No! The phantom is not romantic and he does not look like Gerald Butler no matter how the writer tried to make him a romantic hero. Would a woman really give up being a respectable wife to live in the sewers with a psycho murderer?

[Wiendish Fitch]

38 minutes ago, Snow Apple said:

No! The phantom is not romantic and he does not look like Gerald Butler no matter how the writer tried to make him a romantic hero. Would a woman really give up being a respectable wife to live in the sewers with a psycho murderer?

THANK YOU!!!! I've thought this for years, but never had the guts or ability to voice it as well as you have, Snow Apple! 

Note: The following tangent is based on what I've gleaned from the Andrew Lloyd Webber musical (I like the stage version, the movie version can jump in a lake). I have not actually read the book or seen many other versions (apart from the Lon Chaney one). 

 

The Phantom is a villain. He stalked, manipulated, and kidnapped the decades younger Christine. He successfully murdered two people, tried to kill Raoul, and nearly killed everyone in the opera house. Yeah, it sucks that he's disfigured and had a crap childhood, but so what? How in the ever-loving Hell does that justify him murdering Buquet and Piangi? Was it because Buquet was kind of a jerk and Piangi was... fat, I guess? Uh, okay, whatever.

And while I don't love Raoul, I think the hate towards him is grotesquely lopsided and unfair. My favorite YouTube film critic, Diva from Musical Hell, expressed this perfectly in her review of the ill-advised Phantom of the Opera fanfic- I mean, sequel, Love Never Dies:

Quote

"There's no reason why Christine wouldn't be happier with Raoul than she would be with the Phantom: he's closer to her age, they've known each other longer, he's sincere, utterly devoted to her and NOT PSYCHOTIC."

Edited October 9, 2018 by Wiendish Fitch

[Spartan Girl]

5 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

THANK YOU!!!! I've thought this for years, but never had the guts or ability to voice it as well as you have, Snow Apple! 

Note: The following tangent is based on what I've gleaned from the Andrew Lloyd Webber musical (I like the stage version, the movie version can jump in a lake). I have not actually read the book or seen many other versions (apart from the Lon Chaney one). 

 

The Phantom is a villain. He stalked, manipulated, and kidnapped the decades younger Christine. He successfully murdered two people, tried to kill Raoul, and nearly killed everyone in the opera house. Yeah, it sucks that he's disfigured and had a crap childhood, but so what? How in the ever-loving Hell does that justify him murdering Buquet and Piangi? Was it because Buquet was kind of a jerk and Piangi was... fat, I guess? Uh, okay, whatever.

And while I don't love Raoul, I think the hate towards him is grotesquely lopsided and unfair. My favorite YouTube film critic, Diva from Musical Hell, expressed this perfectly in her review of the ill-advised Phantom of the Opera fanfic- I mean, sequel, Love Never Dies:

 Anyone that actually thinks the Phantom is a hero, let alone decent love interest, needs their head examined. Unfortunately, I'm seeing Love Never Dies at my theater on Saturday -- I have season tickets and it was the only way to get Hamilton tickets, please don't judge me.

On a related note, Bella Swan from Twilight is a worthless heroine. What does she actually do? NOTHING except spawn a stupid vamp/human hybrid. Oh, and give up her mortality to be an pretty immortal. What does she end up sacrificing? NOTHING. So why is she considered a hero again? 

[Wiendish Fitch]

9 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

 Anyone that actually thinks the Phantom is a hero, let alone decent love interest, needs their head examined. Unfortunately, I'm seeing Love Never Dies at my theater on Saturday -- I have season tickets and it was the only way to get Hamilton tickets, please don't judge me.

 

No judgment here, just the way it goes. Hamilton tickets are always worth the trouble!

Back to Schumacher's Phantom, I'm not sure if this is the right board to piss and moan about this, but I hate how Christine is portrayed. Aside from the fact that Emmy Rossum was underaged (adding to the already permeating "ick" factor), she's made a nightmarishly bland cypher who has the legitimate hots for the Phantom and seems to be stringing poor Raoul along for no good reason.

The stage version got it right: Christine is an ordinary girl who initially drawn to, but eventually frightened of, the Phantom, and re-claims her agency at the end. Christine has, at best, tender sympathy for the Phantom's plight, but loves Raoul, and (wisely) chooses a life with him. It's fine if one doesn't like this ending, but I don't think it needed to be retconned, IMO. 

Edited October 10, 2018 by Wiendish Fitch

[HunterHunted]

12 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

On a related note, Bella Swan from Twilight is a worthless heroine. What does she actually do? NOTHING except spawn a stupid vamp/human hybrid. Oh, and give up her mortality to be an pretty immortal. What does she end up sacrificing? NOTHING. So why is she considered a hero again? 

I've always wondered how those films would come across if an actress with a warmer screen presence, like Anna Kendrick or Ashley Greene, had been cast as Bella. Kristen is so low energy and remote that you're always wondering why this big nothing is so special.

[Snow Apple]

I read Twilight before it became huge and it was fine. I actually wanted to see the movie. I'm aware Bella is supposed to be a clumsy average teenage girl in a Mary Sue kind of way, but you're right that Kristin is low energy. She's just so dreary in all her roles. Sometimes it fits but often it doesn't and it didn't work even for a non-hero like Bella.

[festivus]

I've only seen the first movie but I think they got the casting just right. Bella is like a joyless dirge in the books too.