Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Churchhoney]

I don't think bible journaling is strange.

For one thing, they sell special bibles for it, where you have blank space, so that's not really different from a note-taking book with blank pages at the end. It's a way of personally annotating a book that's important to you as a way of making your connection to it more active, making sure that the passages that mean the most to you are strongly highlighted, and, in the act of the coloring, doing a form of art meditation while you're reading. Doesn't strike me as much different from a person I know who has posted notes with thoughts about bible passages stuck all over a bible. Just because a volume has the words of the bible in it shouldn't mean that it's a no-touch-it, seems to me. I don't think it should be true that you're only allowed to get involved with those words in certain kind of cold ways and that you're supposed to fetishize the book itself rather than incorporating it into your life as a real thing. "Reverence" for the bible and other books too often looks like making them cold and out of touch, to me.

Of course, I don't believe that God dictated the bible to anyone. And I've always been one to take notes in my books, turn down their pages and so on. To me that's part of really involving myself with them. I want to annotate and talk back and remember the best lines.

Plus, of course, coloring is a fad today. As is doing calligraphied versions of your favorite quotes. That being the case, I expect that a lot more journaling bibles get bought than actually get journaled in. I doubt that any Duggars are journaling their bibles, for example. It's sort of like all the adult coloring books that people I know have received for gifts. I doubt if anybody's colored in any of them. And when the fad passes, they'll go to the recycling center. Probably the journaling bibles will mostly get stuck on the back shelf and contain no journaling.

[Nysha]

I was raised in a fundamental charismatic church and it was expected that you would underline, highlight, and write notes in your Bible. Otherwise, how would everyone know how holy you were and how much God spoke to you personally through His word? 

[GeeGolly]

I don't understand Bible journaling.  I understand notes and highlighting, but the doodle-like art work has me perplexed. I'm a doodler. I doodle and draw while listening, as it helps me to be fully present. I would find it impossible to draw while reading. While reading might inspire me to draw, I've never been compelled to stop reading and draw/doodle in that moment.

[Aja]

Maybe it's a strategy to try to help you stay awake while reading the Bible.

[Jynnan tonnix]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I don't understand Bible journaling.  I understand notes and highlighting, but the doodle-like art work has me perplexed. I'm a doodler. I doodle and draw while listening, as it helps me to be fully present. I would find it impossible to draw while reading. While reading might inspire me to draw, I've never been compelled to stop reading and draw/doodle in that moment.

I'm not a Bible person, but I do doodle on pretty much anything. Definitely while listening, but also, for example, if I'm writing a shopping list or anything I will compulsively fill in or embellish any graphics which might be on the pad while I am thinking. If it's just a plain sheet of paper, I'll just doodle. If I ever have coloring books, believe me, they get colored in! I even love coloring in the ones designed for kids! LOL

[Obsidian]

Personally, I don't write in any book except maybe a recipe book, but doodling/colouring in would be an extension of writing notes - making your Bible more personal and special to you. I don't see appropriate, related notes or drawings as incompatible with respecting a book like the Bible since it's more a textbook than an heirloom. And how else would the Duggars show that they use and understand it and are so much better than everyone else if they didn't highlight or underline most of it?

[Guest]

I can't believe I've never realized how staged that scene was before. Like TLC was all "We're going to come over and film your bible study"

[Portia]

The most anti-Catholic Evangelicals I've known have mainly been former Catholics. I used to go to church with a formerly Catholic woman who never missed an opportunity to rant about how Catholicism meets all the requirements of a cult. 

Edited June 13, 2017 by Portia
typo

[Marigold]

3 minutes ago, Portia said:

The most anti-Catholic Evangelicals I've known have mainly been former Catholics. I used to go to church with aa formerly Catholic womaan who never missed an opportunity to rant about how Catholicism meets all the requirements of a cult. 

Portia speaks the truth. I'm in the greater NYC area with so many ex Catholic Italians who are now evangelicals.  They NEVER STFU about the Catholic church. Every opportunity they stand up and rant. Every meeting, every prayer group, every Bible study. 

[Marigold]

I am ex IFB and now LDS (pretty loose though) and my evangelical friends sell Lula Roe and essential oils, both owned  by LDS people.   I secretly laugh at that. 

I have never heard them mention anything about who actually owns the companies.

Of course, they are quick to tell who is going to hell. Because God gave them a list. 

[Nysha]

My bet is they (the Evangelical Christians) aren't aware of who actually owns the companies. If/when it becomes public knowledge, they'll use that as an excuse to drop it (rather than, I'm not making any money). The lady's group at my church had a group following a Christian weight loss program and when it came out that the author belonged to a church that didn't believe in the Trinity, it was dropped. The leader, who wasn't losing weight, said she had felt oppressed the whole time she was using it. 

[ariel]

I would pay to see Dawn French's Rev. Geraldine from the "Vicar of Dibley" stop by the Duggar Compound & have a little chat with them about Christianity ( especially Boob & the son in laws) .  That would be must see TV.

[Arwen Evenstar]

18 hours ago, ariel said:

I would pay to see Dawn French's Rev. Geraldine from the "Vicar of Dibley" stop by the Duggar Compound & have a little chat with them about Christianity ( especially Boob & the son in laws) .  That would be must see TV.

Especially if she mixed it up with Daleks and Cadbury bars hidden in bibles.

[Sew Sumi]

In which Libby Anne takes down delusional and possibly senile Bill Gothard. 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2017/06/bill-gothards-solution-crime-chicago-increase-serotonin-levels.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=BRSS&utm_campaign=Nonreligious&utm_content=360

Edited June 28, 2017 by Sew Sumi

[twinkietwin94]

1 hour ago, Sew Sumi said:

In which Libby Anne takes down delusional and possibly senile Bill Gothard. 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2017/06/bill-gothards-solution-crime-chicago-increase-serotonin-levels.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=BRSS&utm_campaign=Nonreligious&utm_content=360

good gravy that man is truly delusional, I have to say I like the commenter who said clearly memorizing a Bible verse daily didn't stop Gothard himself from being a criminal.

[Temperance]

From the article which Libby Anne posted:

Quote

Gothard’s teaching that adopted children inherit the sins of their parents is shared by some portion of fundamentalist ministers, but his belief that troll dolls can inhibit a woman’s labor is shared by a far smaller portion. 

 

Then he's worried about the people of  Chicago's serotonin levels leading to crime. I don't much about serotonin levels, but Serotonin is supposed to make people happy. If I were him I would be much more worried about the serotonin levels of his own community, since his followers don't necessarily seem happy to me. 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Temperance

[ariel]

"The People of Chicago" sounds like a nasty dog whistle against people who aren't white like Gothard.

[RazzleberryPie]

This man is crazy. It's like he latched into one teeny piece of science or fact, then twists it into some bizarre dissertation that grasps at some Biblical terminology, but makes zero sense. These people then eat it up with a spoon. I'm surprised they're not all dead yet out of stupidity. 

Makes sense how Dumbass Jill thinks she's a medical expert because she read something somewhere, doesn't quite understand it, twists it to think what she wants, then smugly condescends anyone who tells her she's a Dumbass.

[Temperance]

3 hours ago, ariel said:

"The People of Chicago" sounds like a nasty dog whistle against people who aren't white like Gothard.

I was trying to understand what I was reading and I used the people of Chicago when he actually he just says Chicago's serotonin levels. I assumed he meant the people, since serotonin is a chemical found in our human bodies and his solution for people is to read memorize lines from scripture. Anyway I didn't mean to offend.

Here I leave with this quote from Libby Anne: 

Quote

What little I learned on WebMD and elsewhere suggests while much serotonin ultimately ends up in the digestive system or the blood, all serotonin is created in the brain (i.e. Gothard is wrong when he says 95% of serotonin is created in the intestines).

Edited June 29, 2017 by Temperance

[MunichNark]

Something I mulled over last night when I couldn't sleep......there's been a photo of Carlin Bates wearing a mini skirt with leggings.

Now if they are all for modesty, why is this acceptable? Yes, her legs are wrapped up in fabric, but she is not covered. Why wear something that needs extra layers? Ditto the tight tops or bing cleavage that needs strappy tops underneath. That is not really modest.

It's all so fake and hypocritical - they are all about legalism and paperthin layers of wannabe. I don't wear certain items of clothing because I feel I don't want to expose myself like that. I don't wear them covered up in multiple layers.

It's a bit of a problem though, since the standards are imposed on them through their parents and technically, these legal adults should dress as they please, but we all know they cannot. BUT........they still harp on about it, and that makes it totally not credible.

[kalamac]

27 minutes ago, MunichNark said:

Something I mulled over last night when I couldn't sleep......there's been a photo of Carlin Bates wearing a mini skirt with leggings.

Now if they are all for modesty, why is this acceptable? Yes, her legs are wrapped up in fabric, but she is not covered. Why wear something that needs extra layers? Ditto the tight tops or bing cleavage that needs strappy tops underneath. That is not really modest.

It's all so fake and hypocritical - they are all about legalism and paperthin layers of wannabe. I don't wear certain items of clothing because I feel I don't want to expose myself like that. I don't wear them covered up in multiple layers.

It's a bit of a problem though, since the standards are imposed on them through their parents and technically, these legal adults should dress as they please, but we all know they cannot. BUT........they still harp on about it, and that makes it totally not credible.

I think they believe 'fabric = covered & modest, regardless of how tight and form fitting the fabric may be". Basically, as long as you can't see the actual skin, you're good to go. Because somehow it would be the sight of their pasty skin that inflames our passions, not the shape of the leg or boobs.

[Churchhoney]

5 hours ago, kalamac said:

I think they believe 'fabric = covered & modest, regardless of how tight and form fitting the fabric may be". Basically, as long as you can't see the actual skin, you're good to go. Because somehow it would be the sight of their pasty skin that inflames our passions, not the shape of the leg or boobs.

And this is combination of both wishful thinking and idiocy -- the two traits that cover most everything they do. 

[RazzleberryPie]

Carlin is the flashy one who is always doing Marilyn Monroe poses (one hand behind head, one on hip), right? On one hand I'm glad a kid has the guts to do what she wants, and she's probably still pretty innocent, but she's kinda messing with the family brand. Is she also spouting modesty, etc. while bending all the rules as far as possible? 

[floridamom]

Carlin Bates is annoying to me. Just too loud and moves too much for my liking. I think she has a lot of bottled up 'energy' and wasn't allowed to express herself when she was a kid, much like the older Duggar children were prevented. The Bates adhere to the same tenets as the Duggars so I think they also were blanket trained.

[RazzleberryPie]

I get that she's what, 18, sheltered and needs attention. What I don't get is how that all her LOOK AT ME flashiness is the exact opposite of what these ATI/IBL/whatever her dad is on the board for/ say a woman is supposed to be. How is she not getting sent to sinner camp or having the spirit beaten out of her? She needs to give lessons to these other, normal girls who are called willful and brazen sinners for having some personality.

Edited June 29, 2017 by RazzleberryPie

[queenanne]

13 hours ago, kalamac said:

I think they believe 'fabric = covered & modest, regardless of how tight and form fitting the fabric may be". Basically, as long as you can't see the actual skin, you're good to go. Because somehow it would be the sight of their pasty skin that inflames our passions, not the shape of the leg or boobs.

You mean, they can't even do that right??  The Victorians swathing their shapely table legs in fabric would be appalled.

[queenanne]

6 hours ago, RazzleberryPie said:

I get that she's what, 18, sheltered and needs attention. What I don't get is how that all her LOOK AT ME flashiness is the exact opposite of what these ATI/IBL/whatever her dad is on the board for/ say a woman is supposed to be. How is she not getting sent to sinner camp or having the spirit beaten out of her? She needs to give lessons to these other, normal girls who are called willful and brazen sinners for having some personality.

I was gonna say, I think @floridamom has the right of it.  The Bateses have relaxed the rules now that the children are grown.  (Either that, or they didn't harass and spirit-break them in the first place a la the Duggars and Jana.)  Do we have evidence that anyone ever slung Carlin into Journey to the Heart?  Maybe there's one set of rules for Gothard's pet families and another set for those he thinks need a little work.

[GeeGolly]

I think the Bates are what happens when Gothardism meets parents with the ability to think critically. They were all in when the kids were little, but unlike the Duggars they added mainstream curriculum to the wisdom booklets. They ditched the prairie dresses, when Zach froze like a deer in head lights when he tried to date, they relaxed the rules a little, they encourage 'higher' education, they relaxed the accountability rule and I believe they're truly interested in, and love, their children.

They're still bat shit crazy and Gil is still part of Gothard World, as is Erin's FIL and Michael's husband. But the education, love and trust they've shown their children, in spite of Gothard, have given the Bates kids a fighting chance at becoming mainstream adults. 

[Minivanessa]

I scanned through the article about Gothard linked above, and wowzer he sure brings the delusional crazy, doesn't he? He starts with a general idea that's not crazy - real scientists are researching the brain-gut connection, including how the gut influences cognition. But he starts riffing off of that into his own theories, which conveniently lead to how people must think in the ways that Bill Gothard tells them to think, and if they do, all will be well.

Gothard IMO is a gifted salesman and promoter, who understood the fears that parents experienced - that their children would be corrupted and ruined by the influences of contemporary culture - and created a solution, all wrapped up in religion. And he sold it like hotcakes to thousands. Just follow these very specific rules, and you will all be safe forever. 

Sure.

[ariel]

8 hours ago, Jeeves said:

 

Gothard IMO is a gifted salesman and promoter, who understood the fears that parents experienced - that their children would be corrupted and ruined by the influences of contemporary culture - and created a solution, all wrapped up in religion. And he sold it like hotcakes to thousands. Just follow these very specific rules, and you will all be safe forever. 

 

Sadly, there are more gifted charlatans than Gorthard.  Jerry Falwell & Pat Robertson. They fleeced the poor for money & were successful at making many of their believes the law in states in the bible belt.  Please Google Pat Robertson & Jay Sekulow.

Edited June 30, 2017 by ariel

[xwordfanatik]

39 minutes ago, ariel said:

Sadly, there are more gifted charlatans than Gorthard.  Jerry Falwell & Pat Robertson. They fleeced the poor for money & were successful at making many of their believes the law in states in the bible belt.  Please Google Pat Robertson & Jay Sekulow.

Don't forget Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart.  But if it's all done in the name of the Lord, then they think it's OK.  

[Sew Sumi]

Swaggart still has a teevee network begging for cash. 

[ariel]

There used to be a Catholic nun on TV.  I think her name was Mother Angelica. She spewed all kinds of hateful crap. She was on TV for a long time & people sent her money.  

[latetotheparty]

25 minutes ago, ariel said:

There used to be a Catholic nun on TV.  I think her name was Mother Angelica. She spewed all kinds of hateful crap. She was on TV for a long time & people sent her money.  

Wow, I remember her. I don't think the catholic channel is on my cable anymore. 

[floridamom]

ariel: What kid of hateful crap did Mother Angelica spew? I watched her show from time to time for many years and I always found her to be soft spoken and genuinely good. Did I miss something?

[twinkietwin94]

I remember Mother Angelica too but I never watched closely so I missed any crap.

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, floridamom said:

ariel: What kid of hateful crap did Mother Angelica spew? I watched her show from time to time for many years and I always found her to be soft spoken and genuinely good. Did I miss something?

Mother Angelica was an old time Catholic hardliner and would often rage against the evils of premarital sex and contraception. Also very much appalled by mainstream TV and movies and what she saw as their promotion of immoral behavior.  She was generally benign,IMO, but definitely a throwback to another century.

[ariel]

1 hour ago, floridamom said:

ariel: What kid of hateful crap did Mother Angelica spew? I watched her show from time to time for many years and I always found her to be soft spoken and genuinely good. Did I miss something?

She proclaimed that anyone who went to see the movie "The Last Temptation Of Christ" would have committed a sin of blasphemy. When she said this, she had not seen the film.  She looked like a nice old school nun, but she was a nasty passive aggressive piece of work.

Edited July 1, 2017 by ariel

[Nysha]

On 6/29/2017 at 6:01 PM, GeeGolly said:

I think the Bates are what happens when Gothardism meets parents with the ability to think critically. They were all in when the kids were little, but unlike the Duggars they added mainstream curriculum to the wisdom booklets. They ditched the prairie dresses, when Zach froze like a deer in head lights when he tried to date, they relaxed the rules a little, they encourage 'higher' education, they relaxed the accountability rule and I believe they're truly interested in, and love, their children.

They're still bat shit crazy and Gil is still part of Gothard World, as is Erin's FIL and Michael's husband. But the education, love and trust they've shown their children, in spite of Gothard, have given the Bates kids a fighting chance at becoming mainstream adults. 

Along with the differences listed, one of the biggest advantages the Bates children have over the Duggar children is that Gil and Kathy raised all of their children. The older ones may have had to babysit or help corral the younger ones, but the actual parents loved, comforted, disciplined, and educated all their children from birth to adulthood. There weren't any sister-moms, lost girls, or howler boys. None of the Bates girls have to sacrifice their lives, like Jana, because somebody has to raise all those kids.

[SnarkyShark]

On 6/28/2017 at 11:48 PM, kalamac said:

I think they believe 'fabric = covered & modest, regardless of how tight and form fitting the fabric may be". Basically, as long as you can't see the actual skin, you're good to go. Because somehow it would be the sight of their pasty skin that inflames our passions, not the shape of the leg or boobs.

Logical, right? 

My mother expected me to dress along certain lines of modesty, although they were nowhere near as strict as the Duggars. This meant wearing skirts that were mid-thigh length or below and camisoles if blouses were sheer or showed too much cleavage. I was also not supposed to wear multiple tight or form fitting garments at once. For instance, if I was wearing shorts that were on the shorter side, then I was expected to wear a looser top. Modesty is about more than just the total area covered by fabric.

[andromeda331]

I'm not so sure that the Bates are any better parents then the Duggars.  Didn't Kelly hand off her babies from the very beginning? Didn't Michael potty train most of her siblings? Wasn't Alyssa in charge of cooking for the family? Callie was devastated when Michael married and left. Kelly couldn't figure out how to fix one of the younger girl's skirt on one episode that Michael had to fix when she came to visit. Gil and Kelly had no problem taking money from their teenage son to buy groceries for their family.  Didn't they install cameras in their house? After that fire that Jed and Judson started, Gil had no problem ditching his kids to head to Florida to meet up with Kelly. They don't seem have a problem shoving their kids off on their married kids either.  Not to mention except for Zach all their kids have married people involved in their cult. Chad's father is on the board with Gil. Alyssa's father-in-law is politician and Brandon works for the cult. Not to mention their desperation to get Michael and Tori married.

[Sew Sumi]

I don't think Bobby's family is IBLP, but I'm betting that Evan's family is. The Bateses went on and on about big families, shared values, yadda, yadda, yadda when talking about Evan's family. That's always been fundie code to me for "Yes, they're just like us." Not to mention that Evan's family was at some event that the Bateses attended, which is where Carlin met him.  At best, Evan's family is IFB if not full-on IBLP.  Bobby didn't even know about the concept of courtship before meeting Tori, so even though he attended PCC, it seems as if he wasn't raised quite as strictly fundie as the Bateses/Duggars, et al. in Gothardland. I just hope that Bobby can remain independent and doesn't get sucked into the Gil vortex, or he's a goner. 

[GeeGolly]

Gil and Kelly had their adult kids help with chores and the older kids help with the younger kids and I believe for a time Lawson bought all the groceries with his own money. But there always seems to be real emotional connections between the parents and the kids and between the siblings. Erin has said through social media that she and Chad no longer support Gothard, although their parents still do. Alyssa seems to have at least left some of the Gothard rules behind. Whitney was never a Gothard follower. Kelly has also made it clear that their buddy system involved getting kids ready in the mornings and keeping track of each other during outings. She didn't adopt out her six month old infants to a sister mom. Tori has been encouraged to wait to get married until she finishes college. And all the married couples has a full-time working adult and Alyssa works as well. So even being fully entrenched in Gothardism as children, their parents' style has at least allowed them a chance at becoming independent adults. It appears to me that Michael is the only adult child that remains fully Gothardized.

Having true love for your children interferes a bit with Gothard's teachings. To be able to stay in line with his authoritarian bullshit means having to distance oneself from any deep emotional connection, or it would be impossible to do. I believe Duggars love their children, however "a little differently" than the average parent does. That's the biggest difference I see between the the Duggar parents and the Bates parents.

[Churchhoney]

On 6/28/2017 at 6:18 PM, RazzleberryPie said:

This man is crazy. It's like he latched into one teeny piece of science or fact, then twists it into some bizarre dissertation that grasps at some Biblical terminology, but makes zero sense. 

 

That's what the Wisdumb Books and the piles and piles of other Gothard materials are. He does this on page after page after page, topic after topic after topic..... Whatever else he is, he's an amazing salesman. I suppose because his twists are so odd, he convinces people that he must be a person of great originality and uncommonly deep insight to come up with them. And so many of them! ....

And then, of course, he always promised the people with the checkbooks -- the patriarchs -- that they'd get exactly what they wanted out of the whole deal. 

Edited July 1, 2017 by Churchhoney

[Marigold]

I think both the Duggars and Bates are the same, in terms of IBLP.  Kelly is naturally a more intelligent woman than Michelle.  The Bates children benefited from that. 

To me, Kelly appears to be sharper, smarter and has more common sense than Michelle.  Neither woman is a genius but overall, Kelly wins. 

Edited July 1, 2017 by Marigold

[floridamom]

The Bates parents are a college educated couple and it shows. Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar are still emotionally 19 and 17 years old and IT shows. The Bates are packaged in a more palatable box, but contain the same ingredients. Gil is on the board of that awful organization and I believe rules his house with the same authoritative fist as Jim Bob Duggar.

[xwordfanatik]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

That's what the Wisdumb Books and the piles and piles of other Gothard materials are. He does this on page after page after page, topic after topic after topic..... Whatever else he is, he's an amazing salesman. I suppose because his twists are so odd, he convinces people that he must be a person of great originality and uncommonly deep insight to come up with them. And so many of them! ....

And then, of course, he always promised the people with the checkbooks -- the patriarchs -- that they'd get exactly what they wanted out of the whole deal. 

Wow, he sounds like he could be L. Ron Hubbard's brother.  Another snake-oil master salesman.  

Money definitely talks.

[Nysha]

17 minutes ago, floridamom said:

Gil is on the board of that awful organization and I believe rules his house with the same authoritative fist as Jim Bob Duggar.

I'm not disagreeing with this statement and I have no respect for Gil and Kathy regarding their continued association with that organization. However, I do believe they are good parents. Their kids are allowed to be individuals, the adults have jobs or school, and the married couples are supported by real jobs, not TV money and fake ministries. 

[Temperance]

I also don't see Gil and Kelly as that different for the Duggars. Are the kids allowed to get jobs in the secular world? Choose from a few different schools? Change religions? Become atheists? Decide they just want to date for a while?  Be a member of the LGBTQ community?  Etc.?

[Sew Sumi]

Zach's a real cop. Chad is an office manager, and Zach used to work there (I imagine it's fundie-owned). John works for his family's business, but heathens need air conditioning, too! Alyssa worked for a florist for a short time, and Michael was a first responder when that was the trendy thing for Gothard kidults to pursue before settling down. The only one still really sucking off the Gothard teat is Brandon, and by extension, Michael. 

While Cherin have denounced Gothard, I think they meant the man that their father helped oust. They seem to still hold pretty tightly to the teachings, down to her appearance. I doubt any of the others have strayed that far away from IBLP teachings, either. Jeans and action movies are just small rebellions, but AFAIK, they're still all attending IFB churches, and only Michael has an AA from a real college. 

So yes, real jobs scattered around in there, but no monumental shifts in core beliefs.