Gimme That Old Time Religion

[DangerousMinds]

I used to lament being raised Irish Catholic and often wondered who I would be without all this guilt. Learning about the Duggars and also Scientology makes me realize It was a walk in the park. So if anyone sees the pontif on his upcoming trip tell him we are all good. No harm, no foul.

I have been feeling exactly the same!

[Lemur]

Saw on the titus 2 (Maxwell) site - a homemaking tip on how to fix a fever. Get ready.

Take febrile child.

Get a pair of his/her socks.

Soak the socks in vinegar.

Put the vinegared socks on febrile child's feet.

Voila! Fever be gone!

WHAT CENTURY IS THIS???????

 

So if that doesn't work do we stone the local witch for making the child sick?

[galax-arena]

Thought some of you might be interested in this: There's a new documentary about the evangelical Christian purity movement, Give Me Sex Jesus. What killed me is that the production company is  called - get this - Side Hug Films. 

[Tabbygirl521]

Thought some of you might be interested in this: There's a new documentary about the evangelical Christian purity movement, Give Me Sex Jesus. What killed me is that the production company is called - get this - Side Hug Films.

Heh, Side Hug Films. I just watched the trailer and I think this looks very interesting! I will watch the whole doc later today.

[Liz Tudor]

Heh, Side Hug Films. I just watched the trailer and I think this looks very interesting! I will watch the whole doc later today.

At times like this, I wish we could suffer through stuff like this together! I'll probably watch it at some point, too.

[Tabbygirl521]

At times like this, I wish we could suffer through stuff like this together! I'll probably watch it at some point, too.

That would be a lot of fun :)

[louannems]

Heh, Side Hug Films. I just watched the trailer and I think this looks very interesting! I will watch the whole doc later today.

I watched the whole thing. It was very good.

[DangerousMinds]

Give me sex, Jesus

OR

Give me Sex Jesus?

LMAO.

[Darknight]

I know divorce is a big no-no in Gothard circles, but what do they believe about marrying widowers? Would, for example Jana, be allowed to marry a widower?

You know I don't get this. A widower gave away pieces of their heart and isn't a virgin. So in Duggar land they're broken and used. But what if Jessa or Jill were widowers? They couldn't remarry? They couldn't have more kids? Duggar logic fail

[Tabbygirl521]

I watched the whole thing. It was very good.

I just watched it, too. Some real food for thought on a number of levels. I thought it was very well done.

[Muffyn]

Or as the old Russian proverb states "pray to God but continue to row ashore"

This makes me think of the quote from Project Runway:  "“I don't care if you cry, just cut and cry".

[RazzleberryPie]

You know I don't get this. A widower gave away pieces of their heart and isn't a virgin. So in Duggar land they're broken and used. But what if Jessa or Jill were widowers? They couldn't remarry? They couldn't have more kids? Duggar logic fail

Widows/widowers are not broken and used, bc they were married. They can remarry. You're only broken and used if you didn't get married or got divorced.

[queenanne]

Widows/widowers are not broken and used, bc they were married. They can remarry. You're only broken and used if you didn't get married or got divorced.

 

Or, maybe that's why you're supposed to get passed to the next sibling (well, "brother" but let's stretch a point into logic) down the line?  "Family obligation" means you're getting one who's not so fussy and won't care. 

[galax-arena]

I watched the whole thing. It was very good.

 

I just watched it, too. Some real food for thought on a number of levels. I thought it was very well done.

I've watched a bit more than half; I'll have to try and watch the rest this weekend.

 

Thoughts? I definitely remember True Love Waits and Silver Ring Thing; both movements were created just as I was heading into adolescence, so I was right around the perfect age to be targeted by them. And it worked. I never officially participated in a TLW or SRT event - and even in my most earnestly prudish "no premarital sex until marriage!" days, I think I always thought the idea of wearing a purity ring was corny; and let's not even talk about the horror of purity balls - but the general message of ~staying pure~ infiltrated my brain anyway.

 

I also remember Campus Crusade for Christ, which is mentioned in the documentary. It was a predominantly white (WASPy) group where everyone seemed really perky and peppy, and while they were all nice to me, it felt vaguely off-putting. Sort of like a religious version of Pleasantville. I ended up joining another fellowship group, which was just as conservative in terms of theology but made me feel less like a token minority.

 

In college, my roommate read I Kissed Dating Goodbye. Fortunately, she never ended up going for the whole courtship model. I don't recall - have the Duggars ever talked about that book at all? I know that IKDG is what led the whole courtship/dating-with-a-purpose craze, but it might still have been too liberal for even the Duggars. IIRC, Joshua Harris later said that he was surprised at how so many people seemed to take his book to an extreme and that all of those courtship hoops that people made up weren't the point of his book. 

[Micks Picks]

So the Pope is here, and he's Catholic, and celebrating mass at a cathedral dedicated to Mary.  I await Ben's pronouncements.  And those of his father.

[Darknight]

So the Pope is here, and he's Catholic, and celebrating mass at a cathedral dedicated to Mary. I await Ben's pronouncements. And those of his father.

with the pope here, the conservative Christians are denouncing him saying that he should keep his ideals out of their politics... Kim Davis has the right to mix religion and politics to persecute people. But the leader of the Catholic faith can't address our social inequalities. How can they not even notice their ignorance and hypocrisy. Persecuted my ass!

[Julia]

with the pope here, the conservative Christians are denouncing him saying that he should keep his ideals out of their politics... Kim Davis has the right to mix religion and politics to persecute people. But the leader of the Catholic faith can't address our social inequalities. How can they not even notice their ignorance and hypocrisy. Persecuted my ass!

 

The fun part of that is all the people who would periodically take a break from kvelling about Benedict's attempts to remake the Church in his own pre-Vatican 2 image to talk about inerrancy and how anyone who opposes the Pope should just shut up and obey are opposing now like it's their job (in fairness, in many cases it pretty much is). I've been particularly enjoying the contortions of noted religious authority and high-profile adulterer George Will, Justice Scalia, and that nice fellow from Home Depot who actually threatened the man.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Julia

[kellylovessnark]

Is Cross Church the church that bought the old Duggar home from 14 kids and pregnant again special? I don't know if it's ever been stated and am too lazy to go over every post.

[JenCarroll]

Here's something I've been wondering about. Do you guys think that this whole "faith, not acts" thing feeds into their apparent reluctance to engage in actual charitable labor? Like, they don't want to look like they're trying to "act" their way into heaven, so they're careful to make a lot of noise about what strong believers they are but not to put real time and effort into helping others?

I'm trying to grasp their reasoning. (It doesn't matter what you do if you don't believe) + (It doesn't matter what you do if you do believe) = God doesn't really care what you do for your fellow people, forget that silliness, the only true service is bringing the Word to others. Is it possible that they genuinely believe God prefers them to sit around pontificating, and would be unhappy if they got off their asses and tried to actually help people that are still alive?

Think of all the poor deluded people who've ended up in hell because they wasted their time on Earth trying to serve others, but didn't believe hold the correct beliefs. Gandhi. Mother Theresa.

[Churchhoney]

Here's something I've been wondering about. Do you guys think that this whole "faith, not acts" thing feeds into their apparent reluctance to engage in actual charitable labor? Like, they don't want to look like they're trying to "act" their way into heaven, so they're careful to make a lot of noise about what strong believers they are but not to put real time and effort into helping others?

 

 

Well, I'd say I sort of believe this, but with a twist. I think that the "faith not acts" theology provides them with a very convenient excuse to behave in a way that's consistent with their key desires. What they really want -- because they're both very fearful and very lazy -- is to crawl into a hole away from everyone who might scare them and not do anything at all that requires effort. So embracing the belief that faith is the only thing that matters, not acts, you have the perfect excuse to act that way. Not only do you not have to work or engage, you're actually behaving in accordance with God's commands by refusing to do either. Nice how that works.

 

I'm biased, though, since I think a heck of a lot of what we believe is really rationalization of what we want to do because of the way our brains are wired. ... Just like Boob's belief in having a million children for god really just provides cover for his personal desire to have a million children to satisfy his selfish gene's drive to reproduce and his personal ego. ... And I expect that I'm a liberal because I have pretty non-fearful brain that craves seeing what's on the other side of the mountain, so I like a looseness to life and an openness to other people that fearful people just can't tolerate.

[Tabbygirl521]

I am old, cynical, and cranky, but my impression of this cult (and numerous others) is that their main raison d'être is to control the wimminfolk and let the men feel like big shots. They can dress it up all they want, and I'm sure many or most of them think they are following God. But they've all swallowed some fallible (or as with Gothard, "fucked up") human MAN's interpretation of scripture. By which I mean the carefully chosen passages that, in isolation, seem to support misogyny and other abominations.

And of course there are other cults that result in both men and woman being under the control of their crazy leader.

I can never understand how the Duggars are all about blathering about Christianity, yet seem enamored of the Old Testament God. He was a harsh dude. Jesus demonstrated so much that the Duggars do not appear to emulate.

I was lucky enough to grow up in a reasonable and progressive Episcopal church. The priest constantly focused on "God is love" and I grew up believing that the reasons for following God's teaching were to make a better world here and to show appreciate for our creator. So I can't help seething at the Gothardism and the like.

My husband grew up in a Fundamentalist church - not as bad as the Duggars, but the Bible was cherry-picked for "teachings" meant to scare and control everyone, lest God smite them. He is still a little flinchy about church and is always surprised when we attend anything at my old church and there is no hellfire and brimstone. He is scarred and so are some of his siblings.

I mean, to each their own, I guess, but these religions that exist solely to limit and isolate people drive me mad. So yeah, faith is nice but let's see them put their money where their mouths are.

ETA: Also, what Churchoney said.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Tabbygirl521

[Lemur]

I can never understand how the Duggars are all about blathering about Christianity, yet seem enamored of the Old Testament God. He was a harsh dude. Jesus demonstrated so much that the Duggars do not appear to emulate.

 

It's like the old Jesuit priest explained to me in Religion class in high school; "God had a kid and promptly mellowed out, just like most of you will."

[galax-arena]

So I'm following the livetweets for a Southern Baptist affiliated conference being put on by the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. The conference is called "Homosexuality: Compassion, Care, and Counsel for Struggling People." If you know anything about the SBC, you can probably imagine what it's about. But that's not the only thing they're talking about. They're also using several mini sessions to promote complementarian (i.e. sexist/patriarchal) gender roles. One quote from the conference, said during a prayer before a session on how to be content as a woman: "The female gender struggles with [not being content] more than the male gender." Well, yes, it's much easier for men to be content when they're the ones on top. Imagine that, a privileged group being happier with their lot in life!

 

There's more, so much more, but that gives you a basic idea on the sort of bullshit they're peddling. Although, if you want something more horrifying, how about the fact that they're using transgender suicide statistics as proof of discontent in that deep down, transgender people know they're not right with God?

 

The Duggars really should just make the switch to the SBC from the IFB. Maybe  the SBC is more worldly, but god knows the denomination as a whole has the same backasswards opinions. And hey, the Duggars have become more worldly over time. And Jill is already halfway into the SBC via Derick.

[Lemur]

Well, yes, it's much easier for men to be content when they're the ones on top. Imagine that, a privileged group being happier with their lot in life!

 

But they're not though.  Didn't you get the memo?  White, suburban, middle-class Christian males are the most discriminated against minority in the US!  

 

Just ask Mike Huckabee!  

[Future Cat Lady]

So I'm following the livetweets for a Southern Baptist affiliated conference being put on by the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. The conference is called "Homosexuality: Compassion, Care, and Counsel for Struggling People." If you know anything about the SBC, you can probably imagine what it's about. But that's not the only thing they're talking about. They're also using several mini sessions to promote complementarian (i.e. sexist/patriarchal) gender roles. One quote from the conference, said during a prayer before a session on how to be content as a woman: "The female gender struggles with [not being content] more than the male gender." Well, yes, it's much easier for men to be content when they're the ones on top. Imagine that, a privileged group being happier with their lot in life!

The concept of women struggling more than males with discontent smacks of ye olde 'hysterical female' mentality. And the transgender logic is the same as their previous insight, 'AIDS is God telling us he hates homosexuality.'

Sadly, this level of stupidity can't be fixed.

 

 

I guess cancer is God telling us he hates people. With that logic, God hates everyone. Why do they worship such an asshole?

[DangerousMinds]

And it still seems they are very confused about the difference between sex and gender.

[Tabbygirl521]

I guess cancer is God telling us he hates people. With that logic, God hates everyone. Why do they worship such an asshole?

Oh, but haven't you heard? Cancer and such gives you the opportunity to demonstrate faith. It's a test! I hope you pass. Don't falter, now, just because you're terrified you might die! God will get mad.

ETA: I hope I don't sound flip about cancer patients. I recently finished treatment myself.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Tabbygirl521

[galax-arena]

I guess cancer is God telling us he hates people. With that logic, God hates everyone. Why do they worship such an asshole?

Well, at this conference, one speaker also said the following: "God is good even if our [gay] son proves to be a vessel of wrath. Even if he is consigned to hell forever." 'Vessel of wrath' in this context means that their son was created for destruction/hell. So... yeah. My guess is they worship an asshole because they're assholes themselves. Projection's a bitch. 

[JenCarroll]

Well, at this conference, one speaker also said the following: "God is good even if our [gay] son proves to be a vessel of wrath. Even if he is consigned to hell forever." 'Vessel of wrath' in this context means that their son was created for destruction/hell. So... yeah. My guess is they worship an asshole because they're assholes themselves. Projection's a bitch.

JFC

[queenanne]

Here's something I've been wondering about. Do you guys think that this whole "faith, not acts" thing feeds into their apparent reluctance to engage in actual charitable labor? Like, they don't want to look like they're trying to "act" their way into heaven, so they're careful to make a lot of noise about what strong believers they are but not to put real time and effort into helping others?

I'm trying to grasp their reasoning. (It doesn't matter what you do if you don't believe) + (It doesn't matter what you do if you do believe) = God doesn't really care what you do for your fellow people, forget that silliness, the only true service is bringing the Word to others. Is it possible that they genuinely believe God prefers them to sit around pontificating, and would be unhappy if they got off their asses and tried to actually help people that are still alive?

Think of all the poor deluded people who've ended up in hell because they wasted their time on Earth trying to serve others, but didn't believe hold the correct beliefs. Gandhi. Mother Theresa.

 

I have never been sure exactly what that is, except "doing unto others is harrrrrd, yo.  Who knew??"  I feel like it's just laziness.  Because the Bible never said, sitting around on your hands looking demure and preaching is the way to get into heaven.  The Bible is very clear about this, it isn't even scriptural:

 

 

 

James 2:14-26New King James Version (NKJV)

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

 

...

 

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

"Don't make the mistake of thinking that one can substitute for another, or that I [God] won't notice if you have one and not the other."  I think God is being used as an excuse to be lazy inert slobs who don't want to exert themselves.  The verses clearly say, they're meant to go hand in hand.  It's so important God/James says it twice.

Edited October 9, 2015 by queenanne

[Micks Picks]

Exactly Queenanne, it seems incomprehensible to me that they have the hubris to go to other countries and act this way.  I don't see them helping people here or elsewhere.  That would not have been considered godly in my book, or even humane.  They don't mind receiving gifts of 10 year of laundress duty, free music lessons, free food, free housing.  Yet it doesn't occur to them to return the favor, personally.  Oh, they loan out Jana to family members to do their work, but JB and Michelle don't do it.

[louannems]

Cultlike Practices at Word of Life Church http://a.msn.com/r/2/AAfwRJ0?m=en-us&a=1

Great article about abusive christian churches. Also, I just read the book, "I Fired God, How I Left the Fundamental Baptist Church". A chilling read.

[Treehugger]

Also, I just read the book, "I Fired God, How I Left the Fundamental Baptist Church". A chilling read.

Thanks for the book recommendation, louannems.  I just ordered I Fired God for my Nook and I'm looking forward to reading it.

[Fuzzysox]

I stole this article off Pickle's page. I didn't know where to put it?

I thought that nothing would ever happen to Gothard but now his board is being sued. Gothard Headquarters are being sold in Oak Brook and Hinsdale . I guess they are moving operations to Texas.

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2015/10/negligence-lawsuit-filed-against-iblp/

Edited October 22, 2015 by Fuzzysox

[GeeGolly]

I stole this article off Pickle's page. I didn't know where to put it?

I thought that nothing would ever happen to Gothard but now his board is being sued. Gothard Headquarters are being sold in Oak Brook and Hinsdale . I guess they are moving operations to Texas.

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2015/10/negligence-lawsuit-filed-against-iblp/

Wow!

[latetotheparty]

I stole this article off Pickle's page. I didn't know where to put it?

I thought that nothing would ever happen to Gothard but now his board is being sued. Gothard Headquarters are being sold in Oak Brook and Hinsdale . I guess they are moving operations to Texas.

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2015/10/negligence-lawsuit-filed-against-iblp/

 

As my Dad would say, it couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

[Defrauder]

I love this guy:

 

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_evilgod.html

[TomServo]

Or, maybe that's why you're supposed to get passed to the next sibling (well, "brother" but let's stretch a point into logic) down the line?  "Family obligation" means you're getting one who's not so fussy and won't care. 

 

To be clear, in the Bible, Levirate marriages happened when the husband died without leaving a son.  The purpose was to provide an heir to inherit the deceased brother's land.  So far, that wouldn't apply to any of the married Duggars except maybe Jessa.

[Purpose to defraud]

How 'bout someone start a genuine movement of goodness? Nah, who'd buy into that?

Nah, Jesus tried that, didn't work so well.

[Defrauder]

Here's something I've been wondering about. Do you guys think that this whole "faith, not acts" thing feeds into their apparent reluctance to engage in actual charitable labor? Like, they don't want to look like they're trying to "act" their way into heaven, so they're careful to make a lot of noise about what strong believers they are but not to put real time and effort into helping others?

I'm trying to grasp their reasoning. (It doesn't matter what you do if you don't believe) + (It doesn't matter what you do if you do believe) = God doesn't really care what you do for your fellow people, forget that silliness, the only true service is bringing the Word to others. Is it possible that they genuinely believe God prefers them to sit around pontificating, and would be unhappy if they got off their asses and tried to actually help people that are still alive?

Think of all the poor deluded people who've ended up in hell because they wasted their time on Earth trying to serve others, but didn't believe hold the correct beliefs. Gandhi. Mother Theresa.

The Duggars have never read the verse: Faith without works is dead.

[Lemur]

The Duggars have never read the verse: Faith without works is dead.

 

Of course not.  It doesn't bestow them with greater privilege and doesn't condemn anyone.  Also, works are like, really haaaaaaaaaard. 

[Satchels of gold]

Those mission skits aren't going to produce themselves.

Edited October 30, 2015 by nc socialworker

[neural-plasticity]

I went home to visit my parents this weekend, and with that entails going to church. I had this "epiphany" today during the sermon when I realized what the main scripture was:

 

 

Matthew 6:31-33:

31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

 

It hit me. This is literally the passage that the Duggars must live by. We sit around and think, ​how in the world could someone have nineteen kids and not think about the financial consequences? We would think that Jill and Jessa (and Anna/Josh) would think twice about this before having as many kids as their parents. Then TLC comes and what do you know, God gave them everything they needed. Now all the kids think the same thing. Sit around all day, do nothing, have no jobs, and expect God to give you what you need (i.e., the leg-bumpers, TLC, People, etc.). It's pathetic. Just think if everyone (outside of Fundies and the like) had the same mentality. It's a dangerous scripture to truly live by. 

 

I know this is no epiphany to anybody, but it just surprised me that the pastor at my parent's church decided to use this scripture. Immediately after reading it I had such a strong aversion to it because of the Duggars. To think that those who do worry about their future and try to proactively plan for the future are considered "nonbelievers" just baffles me. 

[Micks Picks]

Well, it's worked for the Duggars so far.  

[queenanne]

I went home to visit my parents this weekend, and with that entails going to church. I had this "epiphany" today during the sermon when I realized what the main scripture was:

 

 

It hit me. This is literally the passage that the Duggars must live by. We sit around and think, ​how in the world could someone have nineteen kids and not think about the financial consequences? We would think that Jill and Jessa (and Anna/Josh) would think twice about this before having as many kids as their parents. Then TLC comes and what do you know, God gave them everything they needed. Now all the kids think the same thing. Sit around all day, do nothing, have no jobs, and expect God to give you what you need (i.e., the leg-bumpers, TLC, People, etc.). It's pathetic. Just think if everyone (outside of Fundies and the like) had the same mentality. It's a dangerous scripture to truly live by. 

 

I know this is no epiphany to anybody, but it just surprised me that the pastor at my parent's church decided to use this scripture. Immediately after reading it I had such a strong aversion to it because of the Duggars. To think that those who do worry about their future and try to proactively plan for the future are considered "nonbelievers" just baffles me. 

 

Agreed, but as your minister might have said and any I knew certainly said, that just means "don't worry".  The fact that you are taking actions designed to bring money into your house and cloth yourself, is masked/assumed.  It doesn't say you shouldn't have employment; just that if you lose your job, God will provide something else. The only thing biblical which I know of that is designed to really come via no effort on your part and nothing special you have to do, is "praying the salvation prayer".  No worthwhile minister would say "don't work and trust that God will throw money at you".  At the very least and most cynically, because this leads to "who is going to have money to tithe into the collection plate"?

[GeeGolly]

Agreed, but as your minister might have said and any I knew certainly said, that just means "don't worry".  The fact that you are taking actions designed to bring money into your house and cloth yourself, is masked/assumed.  It doesn't say you shouldn't have employment; just that if you lose your job, God will provide something else. The only thing biblical which I know of that is designed to really come via no effort on your part and nothing special you have to do, is "praying the salvation prayer".  No worthwhile minister would say "don't work and trust that God will throw money at you".  At the very least and most cynically, because this leads to "who is going to have money to tithe into the collection plate"?

Yes, but the scripture does imply that:

 

Matthew 6:31-33:

31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

 

And the Duggars cherry-pick, and use literal meanings from the bible.

[Churchhoney]

Well, it's worked for the Duggars so far.  

 

They're at the top of the pyramid scheme.  That's what worries me about them when it comes to their milieu. Basically they're profiting from a ponzi scheme, and I fear for the poor would-be-holy schmucks also in these groups who look at them and perhaps believe that they can be provided for in the same way. Obviously, only a very few are going to rake in the goodies because there just aren't enough goodies to go around. But with the Duggars portraying themselves as an example of how God is good if you believe the right stuff, they're bound to lead some others astray. Mostly, I fear for the children of those others (like the Jill and David Rodriguez kids) because most of the suffering and struggling will be on them. ... Now that could also be what helps some of those kids make a break from this crazy patriarchal belief system (which no Duggarlings have done so far, in part, I believe, because they do have cash). But the fact is, the kids should never be faced with such an awful life and such hard decisions in the first place.

 

TLC blandly acting as if the Duggar way can be kind of normal without tv cash and offerings from all the poor slobs lower in ponzi land really sickens me.

[louannems]

I read some articles about the quiverfulls and the Duggar's are really the exception. Most of these huge families live impoverished, isolated lives. If they even watch TV, imagine how the Duggar's, with their huge house and trips and Uggs, would be their role model.

Edited November 10, 2015 by louannems

[Churchhoney]

Oh, boy! There's a new web site defending Bill Gothard!

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/11/bill-gothard-defenders-center-obedience.html

 

I can't even.

[Sew Sumi]

OMG. I bet that Gothard defender (Arthur?) on Recovering Grace is behind that. Un-fucking-believable. Especially in light of the fact that GOTHARD RESIGNED OVER THIS BEHAVIOR! He knew it was wrong; these people starting a site to defend him just shows how insidious this cult really is.