Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Churchhoney]

I have always wondered about politicians' faith and their true commitment to attending church PRIOR to entering politics. I'd love to see what faith they were ascribing to while being a 'regular joe' (if any).

 

Well, Carter was one who actually had a lot of church commitment before the presidency. And everybody hated the poor guy -- with many of his fellow Christians chief among his detractors and at least some basing their opposition on Carter stances on the environment and international affairs that he took because he believed his faith recommended them.

 

And Obama really did go to the liberal United Church of Christ congregation in Chicago where pastor Jeremiah Wright got him into big, pretty long-lasting trouble with his passionate sermon in which he tried to apply his view of Christian morality to his view of race and class relations in America.

 

Oh, and Romney -- a pretty faithful Mormon, I believe. And that didn't win him any friends that I noticed either.

 

So .... thinking maybe some would-be POTUSes now think that staying away from those houses of worship could be the smarter course. Just sayin.

 

Of course for some, like Josh and JimBob, it might be the least of their problems.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Churchhoney

[bubbls]

 

I'm not doubting it, I just never heard it.

 

Agree. This is where I'm coming from.

 

 

Growing up, I was exploring belief modifications as I believed in 'God", and I believed Christ existed and was followed, but I didn't fully accept his 'divinity'. So, I have always considered myself a 'Christian" but now I am wondering, was I? What is my ilk referred to , if not Christian? And please don't answer, 'sinner', lol.

 

Since Jesus' divinity is the one of the core tenets of Christianity I'd have considered you not-a-christian. I would have referred to you simply as unsaved. What I believed and was taught was that we are all sinners, christians or not. So, nope, I wouldn't have called you a sinner unless I was including myself.  :D

 

Regarding the Duggars and the sinner's prayer, if my experience is anything to go by the sinner's prayer was the same as the salvation prayer, i.e., you acknowledge Christ died for your sins, was crucified/resurrected, and you admit you're unsaved and ask him to forgive you and save you. It wasn't the Jesus Prayer, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, the sinner." Ultimately both are expressing the same idea (the Jesus Prayer much more succinctly too!), but I'm referring to using those specific words. Again, maybe this is something "new" in evangelical circles that wasn't around when I was involved, so maybe the Duggars do use it although I'd be surprised. Evangelicals are suspicious of anything ritualistic, and the Jesus Prayer sounds distinctly Catholic (I understand it's not). I just can't picture them using it for that reason alone.

 

Edited to say that if you hear an evangelical referring to "the sinner's prayer" you can be sure they aren't referring to the Jesus Prayer. At least in my experience.

 

I watched a couple of episodes last night, and they reallllly remind me of my upbringing. It made me nostalgic. There is certainly a comforting sense of security and belonging if you're raised that way. Getting out of most of it has been earth shaking and taken years. I do miss being confident I was right 100% of the time, lol. The two littlest girls talking on camera and trying to say "bonjour" (I watched the Jessa honeymoon ep) were adorable and I pray they're safe. I was surprised by how un-annoying I found them being as I have little tolerance for churchy people normally.

Edited June 10, 2015 by bubbls

[Rhetorica]

Jefferson made his own bible. Read how he did it here:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/how-thomas-jefferson-created-his-own-bible-5659505/

and read it yourself here:

http://www.gutenberg.org/

[GEML]

I think that if you consider yourself to be a Christian, then no one else has the right to tell you that you are not. Different people have their beliefs about what being a Christian means, but that is between the individual and God. I do not think we have to justify how we define ourselves to anyone. It is just a matter of being respectful and understanding that none of us is God and therefore we do not have all of the answers.

Works for me. After a childhood spent around people dissecting this and that person's right to be a Christian, I stopped thinking it was my (or anyone else's) right to decide.

But I'm going to laugh really hard if someone like the Duggars tells me such thought makes me less Christian than they are. Oh my, will I laugh.

[Rhondinella]

Rhondinella, can we do this conversation in the small talk thread? Just curious; I don't have anything specific to add right now, but it seems to keep coming up.

 

Yes, that should be OK.  See FT's note above.

 

Also REMINDER: Cease and desist with the presidential religious talk, please.  Or, as requested above, you can take it to the small talk thread.  Thank you.

[Rhondinella]

Hey, you made me wonder about something... The prayer "Our father who art in heaven..." is a prayer to God, rather than Jesus, right? Growing up, I was exploring belief modifications as I believed in 'God", and I believed Christ existed and was followed, but I didn't fully accept his 'divinity'. So, I have always considered myself a 'Christian" but now I am wondering, was I? What is my ilk referred to , if not Christian? And please don't answer, 'sinner', lol.

 

 

My husband is a Christian theologian and specifically studies the development of Christian beliefs and practices through history.  Here's his answer (in brief):  Yes, generally belief in the deity of Christ is considered one of the essential elements to "orthodox" Christian belief (meaning, your belief is in line with what the church has pretty much always traditionally affirmed).  Some Christians, therefore, would probably consider you a heretic or at least not orthodox (which is what "heretic" really means) for believing differently.  Some might even call you a non-Christian. (See the fact that many Christians--especially of the evangelical variety--consider Jehovah's Witnesses to be non-Christian or heretical for this reason.  They essentially believe Jesus was wasn't fully divine).

 

However, he also said that there have been and still are Christian groups through history who either downplayed or outright denied the divinity of Christ finding some other way to explain how Jesus' death was efficacious for salvation.  Ultimately he (and I) would say that your "relationship" with God is what is important regardless of whether your beliefs might be faulty.  To quote him: "The adequacy of your belief is not a criterion for salvation."  However, that shouldn't be used as an excuse to not continue seeking more adequate understanding of theological beliefs.

 

Thus spake the theology professor.  Take that for whatever you think it might be worth (which could well be nothing at all).  Also note: he approaches this subject from a Protestant, low-church, Wesleyan point of view, so that influences his thinking in this area.

[Absolom]

Historical note on the relative importance of the deity of Jesus was that was the discussion at and the reason for the first church council or gathering of all the available bishops in Nicaea or alternatively Nicea in 325.  So it was one of the first issues that the original Christian church had to clarify.  The position that Jesus was not divine was taken by Arius and after the council, he and his followers were banished.   It was interesting to me that it took 300 years to reach that point.  There is probably historical company to be found for all alternate beliefs and explanations.  :) 

[truthtalk2014]

(I originally posted this on the Jill and Derick thread but it probably goes here.)  

 

Could someone please enlighten me as to what exactly missionaries do. 

Are they there to simply convert people of other religions - or no religion at all?

Or, do they go there and work their asses off to help them have clean water, gardens and stable housing?

I've spent a small amount of time around the religious sector and had an unfortunate small portion of my life subjected to fundie types, but I do not know how the missionary thing works with the fundie faction.

I want to understand what J&D would be doing in any country as a 'missionary'.  No snark.  Just curious.

[DangerousMinds]

I think the "work" they do varies. I support the a Peace Corps, because they are 100% there to help the communities they serve. I think religious missionaries want others to believe they do the same, but I doubt that they do.

[galax-arena]

Could someone please enlighten me as to what exactly missionaries do.

A mission's purpose by definition is meant to spread the gospel to the rest of the world, so evangelism is tied up in it. You can't really divorce the two unless you want to redefine what a mission is. But a lot of missions do also engage in charity work as well, and I think a lot of rank-and-file missionaries are more engaged in that aspect as opposed to conversion/proselytizing. They're not, like, throwing Bibles at people's heads or delivering long sermons as a prerequisite for accepting any assistance. Of course, it depends on the individual missions group, because some are a lot more stereotypically "Bible thumping" than others. I never followed Derick's life in Nepal that closely, but from what I recall, he was doing genuine work over there? But I've known of other congregations/churches that bragged about their missionary work that basically amounted to church planting.

 

(My personal stance is that I have nothing against individual missionaries and believe that most of them have only good intentions, but I'm not a fan of missions as an institution on principle. I guess it's sort of the same way I feel about certain Christian denominations, e.g. I know and love a lot of people of Denomination X on an individual level, but I really can't stand the Denomination X church as a body/institution.)

[melanie]

I have been trying to think about all of the different missionaries that I have personally known and what they did/do.  One man is a dentist who visits Haiti six months out of every year.  He works in the states basically to fund his missionary work.  I don't think he is beating anyone over the head with a bible, but if anyone asks him why he does what he does, he is not bashful about his faith and how he feels called by God to share what he has with those less fortunate.  Some "mission trips" that I have been asked to help fund just seem like an excuse to go on vacation to some exotic location to me.  Most missionaries realize that you cannot teach someone about Jesus or any other religion if they are hungry or sick or homeless.  Isn't that Maslow's hierarchy of needs?  So, I think that they try to remedy those situations before they preach the gospel.  Also I think that is what Jesus told his followers to do.  

I don't know any Mormons personally that have gone on a mission, but from what I have read, those missions are strictly to convert people and spread the Mormon faith.  Please correct me if I am wrong.  That is the only religion that I know of that requires all of its members to participate in missionary work.  

[kalamac]

I'm in Australia, and I had some American Mormons on my doorstep a few weeks ago. Two young women with lovely hair, who after I politely told them I wasn't interested, asked me if I knew the risk I was taking by not accepting true faith into my heart. I said I'd take the risk.

[JenCarroll]

Hey, you made me wonder about something... The prayer "Our father who art in heaven..." is a prayer to God, rather than Jesus, right? Growing up, I was exploring belief modifications as I believed in 'God", and I believed Christ existed and was followed, but I didn't fully accept his 'divinity'. So, I have always considered myself a 'Christian" but now I am wondering, was I? What is my ilk referred to , if not Christian? And please don't answer, 'sinner', lol.

Thanks for jogging my memory - Pentecostal was definitely one.

Catholics call the "Our Father" the Lord's Prayer, I think. Interestingly, Jews also recite a version this prayer at funerals (maybe other times, but I've only ever noticed it at funerals. I'm a terrible Jew...) It stops before the "kingdom and the power and the glory" part.

[questionfear]

Catholics call the "Our Father" the Lord's Prayer, I think. Interestingly, Jews also recite a version this prayer at funerals (maybe other times, but I've only ever noticed it at funerals. I'm a terrible Jew...) It stops before the "kingdom and the power and the glory" part.

Yes, we say it during the high holy days (probably Yom Kippur).

 

I'm a bad jew too, I only remember it because my non-Jewish wife got all excited at services once because she knew that part. 

[bubbls]

I'm in Australia, and I had some American Mormons on my doorstep a few weeks ago. Two young women with lovely hair, who after I politely told them I wasn't interested, asked me if I knew the risk I was taking by not accepting true faith into my heart. I said I'd take the risk.

This is so funny! Even even we were deep into evangelicalism we never did this door-to-door thing as my mom was totally against it. My whole family being introverts contributed to that. But there's a helluva a lot of peer pressure to do it. I think a lot of the issues we had .....and still do...... Are more a matter of extroverts vs. introverts rather than doctrine. Extroverts are convinced you aren't truly in God's will unless you're doing things their way; in church all the time, telling everyone about God, gathering together, etc. Ask me how I know and if I still get pissed about it. Heh. It's why I no longer go to church.

[Happyfatchick]

Another new factoid for me: the Jewish faith recites what I know as The Lords Prayer! . This prayer is recorded in the New Testament, when Jesus was giving his followers the example of "how" to pray. We also call it (sometimes) the "model" prayer. How (to me, anyway!) that Jewish faith would use words in a service that (in my Bible)are written in red!

[LilJen]

Historical note on the relative importance of the deity of Jesus was that was the discussion at and the reason for the first church council or gathering of all the available bishops in Nicaea or alternatively Nicea in 325.  So it was one of the first issues that the original Christian church had to clarify.  The position that Jesus was not divine was taken by Arius and after the council, he and his followers were banished.   It was interesting to me that it took 300 years to reach that point.  There is probably historical company to be found for all alternate beliefs and explanations.  :) 

The church was illegal until then. That's why it "took 300 years" for councils to begin meeting. Once Constantine legalized the religion he was all, "hey, let's get our theology straight here."

[questionfear]

wikipedia to the rescue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Prayer#Relation_to_Jewish_prayer

 

Apparently it's similar but not an exact translation (though I'd guess it's close enough, especially in english, for most people to assume it's almost the same). 

[muffkins]

I don't know any Mormons personally that have gone on a mission, but from what I have read, those missions are strictly to convert people and spread the Mormon faith.  Please correct me if I am wrong.  That is the only religion that I know of that requires all of its members to participate in missionary work.

My sister in law, brother and niece converted to Mormonism about 18 years ago.  As a family, they go to church, tithe, and do Mormon community stuff.  They have never tried to convert me, but will answer questions if asked.  My niece came down from northern BC and lived with me for a year or so, met and married a young man from a local Mormon family and he did go on mission.  From what he tells me, he went to south America and built houses, schools, wells and that sort of thing.  He said you only go door to door preaching if that is what you want to do.  There is no requirement to try to convert anyone.  Mostly the mission is to do good in the world for people less fortunate.  While my niece lived with me, a few of her church counsellors would stop by now and again to see if there was anything she or I needed help with, but they only asked me once if I was interested in their religion, and when I said no, it was not brought up again, even though they stopped by every once in a while.  The three women were from different parts of the world (The states, Australia and Eastern Canada)  so I don't think it is a regional thing.  Out of most Christian religions, I have found Mormons to be the least intrusive.  And there are several openly Mormon families in my neighbourhood.  They all seem pretty regular types to me.

[Mindymoo]

I guess that's one thing I liked about the Catholics. They're not proselytizers. They don't go door to door, which I find so incredibly rude. I don't want my own friends and family coming to my house without calling first, so why would I want strangers knocking on my door to preach to me? When the Jehovah's Witnesses came to my Dziadzia's door, they asked him if he believed in the almighty god. He told them he believed in the almighty dollar and slammed the door in their faces. He was a Catholic, but he didn't put up with that nonsense.

[Muffyn]

Catholics call the "Our Father" the Lord's Prayer, I think. Interestingly, Jews also recite a version this prayer at funerals (maybe other times, but I've only ever noticed it at funerals. I'm a terrible Jew...) It stops before the "kingdom and the power and the glory" part.

When I was young and went to Roman Catholic mass, we also stopped before the "for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory" part.  I first heard this in an Episcopal church in the 80s.  It now seems to be said at the RC mass this way too.  Since I end up in church maybe once every ten years or so, I really wish they'd stop messing with these things.  Shouldn't it all be about me?  Oh wait, maybe I'm a little off course here.   Next thing they'll expect me to kneel without falling to the ground like an injured elephant.  

[JenCarroll]

Another new factoid for me: the Jewish faith recites what I know as The Lords Prayer! . This prayer is recorded in the New Testament, when Jesus was giving his followers the example of "how" to pray. We also call it (sometimes) the "model" prayer. How (to me, anyway!) that Jewish faith would use words in a service that (in my Bible)are written in red!

Well, Jesus was Jewish; presumably that's how he knew how to pray.

[JellyFishQueen]

I always thought the duggars style there own relgion really and picked and choiced what they liked about the bible.

[Lemur]

I always thought the duggars style there own relgion really and picked and choiced what they liked about the bible.

 

I believe Bill Gothard did that for them in advance.

[Happyfatchick]

There's a small apartment down the road from me. It is rented by Mormons and has been filled with 2 to 3 young Mormons (rotating) since I can remember. They do not have any mission in our community except to make converts. Ever. I've watched several sets of them come and go through the years. Every time a new set comes in, they make the walk around the whole neighborhood and try (gently) to get in doors. They aren't offensive in the least but very interesting to talk to. I couldn't care less about their religion, but I'm interested in THEM. What makes them do this? They live on a very tight budget - there is a car provided, but not enough gas money to get them through the month. No TV, no internet. They are allowed to call home (I believe) once a week. They don't do any type of mission work (building, etc.) except proselityzing. Nice kids, every one of them.

For you, JC, Jesus was JEWISH??? Who knew???? Smarty.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[GEML]

[snip] we had Catholics going door to door in our neighborhood. There are some parishes who took JPII's call to evangelism very literally.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Rhondinella

[Cherrio]

There's a small apartment down the road from me. It is rented by Mormons and has been filled with 2 to 3 young Mormons (rotating) since I can remember. They do not have any mission in our community except to make converts. Ever. I've watched several sets of them come and go through the years. Every time a new set comes in, they make the walk around the whole neighborhood and try (gently) to get in doors. They aren't offensive in the least but very interesting to talk to. I couldn't care less about their religion, but I'm interested in THEM. What makes them do this? They live on a very tight budget - there is a car provided, but not enough gas money to get them through the month. No TV, no internet. They are allowed to call home (I believe) once a week. They don't do any type of mission work (building, etc.) except proselityzing. Nice kids, every one of them.

For you, JC, Jesus was JEWISH??? Who knew???? Smarty.

Watch this and you will get a condensed and entertaining profile about Mormans.            :)

 

[galax-arena]

I couldn't care less about their religion, but I'm interested in THEM. What makes them do this?

Seriously. I've read about the daily life and code of conduct required of Mormon missionaries, and it's no joke. The stuff about attire and recreational activities and outside contact is strict enough, but the one rule that gets me is that you must always be within sight and hearing of your companion. You are not supposed to be separated from each other ever, unless you're interviewing with the mission president or in the bathroom. As an introvert who craves solitude, that'd be my worst nightmare. Even more than living with the Duggars... if we're to leave aside the child abuse stuff and just focus on the more banal dynamics of living in that large a family, anyway. (It's theoretically permissible for a Duggar child to be alone, right? As long as they don't spend too much time in the bathroom, that is, lest they indulge in the evil sin of masturbation?)

 

I kinda assumed that going on a missions trip was essentially required of Mormons, but Wiki tells me that it's simply strongly encouraged. But are young male Mormons who don't serve looked down upon? There could be a lot of social pressure to sign up. 

 

Even though I'm not down with the proselytizing, in a weird way I'm impressed with the level of discipline it takes to be a Mormon missionary. I'd never be able to hack it. 

Edited June 11, 2015 by galax-arena

[Absolom]

The only way it makes sense to me is that if you grow up hearing about the missions and how strict the rules are that maybe it seems less truly strange and it becomes something you understand.

[Marigold]

I'm actually a (convert) Mormon and an ex Baptist Fundamentalist (lite. -I have a graduate degree...so education was not a no-no like Gothard etc.) 

 

The Mormon mission and what they do depends a bit on where you are going.  Reality is, if you're in an affluent area...there aren't so many phsycial needs. So they will go out and look for people to talk to.  If you are sent to an area that is in need of many things, you will be doing more physical work and less actual teaching. I believe the missionaries in Haiti and the Phillipines have done a lot of work in helping to rebuild. I read that the Mormom missionaries there were doing more building than anything. 

 

I obviously did not serve a mission but my sons are thinking about it. I am staying out of it and letting them decide for themselves. In more traditonal and multi generational Mormon families, there is a huge pressure to serve a mission.  It is two years of your life strictly dedicated to God's service. It is considered part of following Jesus...to decide not to go isn't really considered a positive thing.So yes, if you don't go, you get the side eye! Men are strongly encouraged and women are encouraged. 

 

And yes, the rules are very strict.  I could NEVER be stuck with some stranger 24/7. NEVER!!  But we have missionaries over for dinner often (the church families feed them dinner on a rotating basis) and most of them really really enjoy the mission.  They are happy guys doing what they believe is their calling by God. A few, I think, looked very depressed and should've returned home. I feel sorry for them....just go home and find another way to serve God.  

The companion rule is there to keep good conduct and also for safety reasons.  And they say Jesus sent them out "two by two" so they use that as an example as why they are paired up. I have to admit that I never noticed those verses!  

 

No phones, no TV, no radio. No calls home other than twice a year. Handwritten letters are encouraged. It is very strict.  I personally wouldn't want to do it.  But the majority of men who return found it to be a very spiritual experience.  A few men will admit that it was not a good choice for them. I guess it's personality too...I would n't and couldn't! 

 

To my knowledge, fundamentalist missionaries do a lot of the same.  Caring for physical needs (if able) and caring for spiritual needs of the place they serve in. 

 

I'm not the person to go out and bang on doors.  I feel that if people want to ask me about my faith, feel free. If you're happy with your faith, then I'm happy for you. I'm a laid back Mormon, I guess. ;)

 

EDIT, oh no, I thought this was Small Talk. Please move my post if you need to. sorry about that. 

Edited June 11, 2015 by Marigold

[Happyfatchick]

Next thing they'll expect me to kneel without falling to the ground like an injured elephant.

Help! I've FALLEN and I can't get up!!! Help!

[JenCarroll]

For you, JC, Jesus was JEWISH??? Who knew???? Smarty.

I actually have a friend, a life-long Lutheran, regular churchgoer, aged 50, who just discovered this recently. She was all excited to tell me. :-)

Edited June 12, 2015 by JenCarroll

[lookeyloo]

I took a short course not too long ago where the professor compared three religions : Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. She was so good we couldn't tell what she thought or believed. Several folks in the class just could not believe that not everyone "believed in Jesus".

[melanie]

I live in an area that is dominated by the Church of Christ -- literally there is one on every street and they are named after the street they are on.  Until I moved here, I had never heard of them.  My question, as it relates to the Duggars, is that I have a friend who has made several major changes over the course of time that I have known her and her family.  These changes are very Gothard-like and I know that she admires the Duggars.  Is it possible that a Church of Christ member could be in the Gothard cult or is that only for the Independent Fundamental Baptist types?  I literally do not know anything about the Church of Christ except that they do not believe in any musical instruments during their church services.  Other families that I know around here (and a majority of them are C of C) do not follow the "rules" about skirts for girls, etc. I am just curious about how denomination-specific the Gothard organization is.  Thanks for any insight.  I really am curious.  

[Happyfatchick]

Gothard is not denomination specific at all, that I know of.

[Churchhoney]

I live in an area that is dominated by the Church of Christ -- literally there is one on every street and they are named after the street they are on.  Until I moved here, I had never heard of them.  My question, as it relates to the Duggars, is that I have a friend who has made several major changes over the course of time that I have known her and her family.  These changes are very Gothard-like and I know that she admires the Duggars.  Is it possible that a Church of Christ member could be in the Gothard cult or is that only for the Independent Fundamental Baptist types?  I literally do not know anything about the Church of Christ except that they do not believe in any musical instruments during their church services.  Other families that I know around here (and a majority of them are C of C) do not follow the "rules" about skirts for girls, etc. I am just curious about how denomination-specific the Gothard organization is.  Thanks for any insight.  I really am curious.  

 

Gothard doesn't link himself to any Christian group in particular, as far as I know. My sense is that he's developed a lucrative little side-cult that he can sell to any poor schlubs at all who hope to rev up their Xtianity to protect them from all the ills that man is heir to. And since lots of us are fearful and want to control everything -- and have been especially in the shifting times of the 70s, 80s, 90s and the skeery coming of the millennium -- he's had a stream of takers from all over. Wouldn't want to limit the customer base.

[GEML]

My uncle was CoC. (I generally have a close family member who is something Protestant.). They come out of the "Restoration Movement"'of the early 20th century when a lot of people were unhappy with mainstream churches and we're looking for alternatives. They aren't at all like the Duggars - they take their cues from Presbyterians (in regard to church officer make up) and their big thing is that if something isn't mentioned in the New Testament, they don't consider it proper. So because instrumental music isn't mentioned, they sing a Capella.

While Gothardism isn't specifically tied to a denomination, most of his connections have come through Baptists groups, almost all in the south (but that isn't necessarily the same as Southern Baptist, although some Southern Baptists churches welcomed him) and the Midwest.

[Groffles77]

I've definitely come across CoC's that are heavy on the legalism though, so if one is used to that or drawn to that I can see how something like Gothardism wouldn't be a huge leap, especially if they watch and desire to emulate the Duggars.

[GEML]

Since each CoC is autonomous, you can get a group that would be very legalistic. (You can get that easily within any denomination, actually). But Gothardism is Old Testament based (no pork, sex at certain times, etc) whereas CoC is more New Testament based. That doesn't mean you can't be legalistic (Amish are almost completely New Testament based, for instance) just that the legality looks somewhat different.

[NEGirl]

Jellybeans - My toughts and prayers are with you - God Bless

[Vaysh]

They aren't at all like the Duggars - they take their cues from Presbyterians (in regard to church officer make up) and their big thing is that if something isn't mentioned in the New Testament, they don't consider it proper. So because instrumental music isn't mentioned, they sing a Capella.

How does that work in regards to modern science and technology? Do they consider cars improper too? Electricity? Antibiotics? From what I've read here on the boards my understanding is that the CoC don't live like the Amish, or have I missed something?

[NEGirl]

I was raised Catholic and never heard of any Catholic organization going door to door. That is usually never done.

[questionfear]

I actually have a friend, a life-long Lutheran, regular churchgoer, aged 50, who just discovered this recently. She was all excited to tell me. :-)

 

I once had someone try to give me a pitch about respecting Jesus and how being Jewish meant I didn't, to which I assured them I did respect Jesus-how could you not be impressed with a Jewish carpenter? 

 

Luckily for everyone that ended the conversion pitch very, very quickly.

 

As an aside, I am still bitter that years ago Mrs QF and our friends intervened to keep me from having a "discussion" with Jews for Jesus. Just because we were on our way to a wedding and no one wanted to bail me out of jail...

[not2serious]

Gothard doesn't link himself to any Christian group in particular, as far as I know. My sense is that he's developed a lucrative little side-cult that he can sell to any poor schlubs at all who hope to rev up their Xtianity to protect them from all the ills that man is heir to. And since lots of us are fearful and want to control everything -- and have been especially in the shifting times of the 70s, 80s, 90s and the skeery coming of the millennium -- he's had a stream of takers from all over. Wouldn't want to limit the customer base.

 

This exactly.  I went to a church in college that I wouldn't even call fundie-lite; it was a non-denominational church whose leaders had mostly gone to Southern Baptist or Presbyterian seminaries.  But there were Gothardites in the congregation.  They stuck out like sore thumbs because our church was actually founded as a college ministry on the campus, so very nearly every woman in the church, including the pastor's wife, had or was working on at least one college degree, and we were known to do things like wear shorts in the summer (NIKE).  I do think the Duggars either go beyond Gothard expectations, or the people in my church were Gothard lite.  One of the guys in our singles group "courted" one of the girls until he got tired of the crap, but on the outside, it looked a lot like dating, except with more time spent with her family.  They tended to wear skirts and longer hair, but wore jeans when it was practical.  But yes, they weren't allowed to pursue college.  

[melanie]

Ok. I think I understand a little bit more.  Can "Gothardism" for lack of a better word be an individual thing?  Wouldn't someone following these teachings want to be surrounded by others who believe the same things.  I guess since C of C are autonomous there could be some of them that are kind of different and maybe they seek out churches that believes the same things?  My friend's family has done a lot of C of C hopping through the years and is now attending one at least an hour away from where they live even though there are a ton of them here locally.  Her oldest child just graduated from high school with my youngest child and she is planning on going to college, but her specific goal is to pursue a course of education that will enable her to be a stay-at-home mom and run a home-based business.  Also, in our state a homeschooling parent who is the primary educator must have a college degree or there are a lot more state requirements.  So, this could just be to enable her to homeschool her children without state interference.  That is just so weird to me because my daughter doesn't even know if she wants to get married or have children.  The family also has been convicted to have more children recently (in her mid 40's) and is about 7 months pregnant now after suffering several miscarriages over the past few years.  

This sounds like Gothard to me or at least something very similar.  They also attended the San Antonio Christian Film Festival run by Doug Phillips and Vision Forum a couple years ago.  I don't know what his connection is to Gothard, but I think he has one.  I would love to be enlightened because right now I am just putting pieces together.  Thanks everyone!  

 

On a different note, I attended Catholic schools as a non-Catholic and no one ever tried to convert me.  I don't know if that is universal, that was just my experience.  The musical about The Book of Mormon looks hilarious.  I would love to see it.  I love when people can laugh at themselves.  We should all do that more and not take ourselves so seriously.  

[Lemur]

On a different note, I attended Catholic schools as a non-Catholic and no one ever tried to convert me.  I don't know if that is universal, that was just my experience.  

 

I endured 13 years of Catholic education in suburban Philadelphia.  We usually always had a couple of kids in grade school who were not Catholic, and almost a third of my high school class was some denomination other than Christian.  The Archdiocese encouraged it, because if you were attending their school, you were being taught their version of theology and Biblical studies.  Also, they are pretty lax about what denomination you were baptized in.  What matters is where you are confirmed.

[truthtalk2014]

 

On a different note, I attended Catholic schools as a non-Catholic and no one ever tried to convert me.  I don't know if that is universal, that was just my experience.  The musical about The Book of Mormon looks hilarious.  I would love to see it.  I love when people can laugh at themselves.  We should all do that more and not take ourselves so seriously.  

It has been my experience that the ones most likely trying to convert people are the Christians. It seems that most other religions and beliefs are quite happy letting others believe as they want. 

 

Oh wait- except for the people that show up ringing your doorbell early on a Saturday morning  (this was in California).  It became so annoying!  Damn it.  Let me sleep in.  Finally, I started having my husband go to the door in only his underwear saying, "WHAT?".  

 

Eventually, they got the message.  

 

We actually had someone pull up to our house in Florida recently.  I could see them through the blinds carrying their big Bible.  We just didn't go to the door.  It's amazing because if Muslims or Buddhists or Atheists showed up trying to convert someone, there would be a lot of anger.  (IMO)  I just find it rude in general.  No offense to anyone.  

[Marigold]

I don't like anyone trying to sell me anything. I love when people share.  When ASKED. 

[BradandJanet]

I live in an area that is dominated by the Church of Christ -- literally there is one on every street and they are named after the street they are on.  Until I moved here, I had never heard of them.  My question, as it relates to the Duggars, is that I have a friend who has made several major changes over the course of time that I have known her and her family.  These changes are very Gothard-like and I know that she admires the Duggars.  Is it possible that a Church of Christ member could be in the Gothard cult or is that only for the Independent Fundamental Baptist types?  I literally do not know anything about the Church of Christ except that they do not believe in any musical instruments during their church services.  Other families that I know around here (and a majority of them are C of C) do not follow the "rules" about skirts for girls, etc. I am just curious about how denomination-specific the Gothard organization is.  Thanks for any insight.  I really am curious.  

The C of C are a traditional Christian denomination that were "invaded" in the late 1970's by two evangelicals, Chuck Lucas and Kip McKean, who split off into the Boston Church of Christ and later named International Churches of Christ. These groups were active on college campuses in the late 70's and through the 80's through aggressive recruiting, discipling, money-raising, legalism, authority hierarchy, and other cult-like practices of controlling contact with non members and determining choice of a mate. The group split again with the main leader moving to California and starting a new group there. There's an outline here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Churches_of_Christ

 

This group, while declining in numbers, still appears on many or most reports of cult activity in the U.S.  However, it is not Gothard and is not now part of the mainline Church of Christ. The Duggars would not likely have any connection with the International Churches of Christ, which have no restrictions on birth control that I know of and do not acknowledge the same leaders. However, both follow similar ideas of confessing all personal thoughts and feelings, limiting meaningful contact with outsiders, and requiring total obedience to the group. Well, that's just what cults do. 

[GEML]

Also, the original CoC was focused on worship style and church structure. And even the more cult like hybrid isn't as focused on family and domestic life as it is church community and how that is practiced. It's true that you can make the church your "family" and that spills into it, but it's not getting into issues such as hair, decorating your home, intricacies of dress (outside of appropriate for worship services) etc.

My husband had a friend who joined the ICoC and had what was basically an arranged marriage. But they were also two people who were unlikely to find someone on their own. (Guy was very odd...). Both were in their late 40's, so children weren't an issue. They've been married about 15 years now and I have no reason to think they are more or less happy than any other couple.