S06.E10: START

[hellmouse]

3 hours ago, Anela said:

After they put on the real wedding rings, I thought of @hellmouse and again when Paige got off the train. She got what she wanted for them. :) 

I did, but it was still so sad! They are alive, they are together, they are in Russia, and as I thought, they lost their children. But that part was much sadder than I thought it would be. For the second time in their lives they are starting fresh in a new country, but this time they have given up so much more and have fewer years ahead. Overall, phenomenal performances by Keri Russell and Matthew Rhys - they made Philip & Elizabeth feel so real. 

[TimWil]

I would have liked it if the “happy family” at McDonalds was actually Young-hee with her husband and children. Of course Philip would have had no idea who they were.

[SusanSunflower]

No, not Paige having a tantrum, just Paige recognizing the reality that she has a choice... Her ability to walk away from spying to avoid a life of false-fronts and lies and omissions (lack of intimacy) was -- prior to this collapse of P&E's cover -- a done deal .... Paige was (and would always likely be) KGB, watching her blissfully unaware brother living and creating the life of his choosing...    Yeah, goes back a couple of seasons, but for me William's loneliness was a sentinel cruelty of the spying life .... and something Paige had entered into unwittingly .... and now was locked into.  Even her relationship with Matthew was aborted -- too risky. 

I grew up keeping a lot of my parents' secrets.  My empathy for Paige in this is enormous (even if not well-explored imho).   It's incredibly inhibiting, a burden and involves a lot of self-censoring.   I was delighted Paige stepped out of line. 

Edited June 2, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[missy jo]

What was the point of Phillip telling Stan he wished he stayed in EST? 

Overall I thought it was a good finale. They rushed some of the plot points in the final episodes, but wrapped it up nicely. And I don't mind some questions being left open. 

However I recently saw the series finale of Bates Motel, and that's an example to me of it being done at the right pace, fully paced out and not rushed. 

[SusanSunflower]

Quote

That's something Philip was always tortured by -- stealing propeller plans that ended up sinking a Russian submarine, acquiring deadly viruses for defensive purposes that were instead used to murder mujahideen, killing innocent people to prevent a plague of midges only to discover that they were being used to eliminate famines, not cause them. The missions that left Philip feeling like he'd genuinely had a positive impact were few and far between.

and I never saw Elizabeth have a similar epiphany about the people she killed "just following orders" or because they were inconvenient 

 

About EST, I think Phillip meant that Stan would be able to be the "bigger" or alternate context of his dillema ....  in which P&E were patriots to their country and had -- in fact -- prevented both a coup and the breakdown / failure of arms reduction treaty ....  That it was "not personal" wrt Phil and Stan ... that both were doing their jobs and that Stan could (rather like Tale of Two Cities, "Far greater thing) let P&E walk away, return to Russia, no longer demanding arrest .... 

It was sophistry and manipulation by Phillip -- If Stan had stayed in EST he would be able to see the "greater picture" and let P&E go free.

Edited June 2, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Umbelina]

EST was about seeing your true self, and being honest with your true self, instead of doing what you "should" doing what your true self dictates.

I loved your post @Dev F until the last part, because no.  Not one character got a definitive ending.  They are all completely up in the air.  Nothing was resolved.

[Anela]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Paige certainly did. It was one of the reasons she thought they were sketchy.

Yet she didn't actually like meeting her grandmother too much. I think she was just overwhelmed and didn't know what to do with it, but she didn't develop any real interest in knowing about the family she now knew she had in this other country--or in the country itself, despite Claudia and Elizabeth formally trying to make her interested in an emotional way.

Hassan Minaj talks a lot in his act about having immigrant parents and it's hilarious--one of the many things he says is that immigrant parents never tell you anything. So one day you're like, "Wait, Mom's a ninja? Dad's a Communist? What??!" Philip and Elizabeth really weren't that forthcoming about their pasts--Elizabeth was a lot more than Philip, though. But it wasn't so much Paige asking and being shut down, it didn't seem to me. When she did ask she often got an answer, but not one that was satisfying to her. Not one that made things more understandable. Again it goes back to Dev's point about Paige wanting things to be normal but instead they're just more foreign--again, like her meeting with her grandmother that doesn't seem to help her at all. She tried and tried and always felt like her parents were aliens.

Henry, ironically, might have been much better with that aspect of it, just accepting their weirdness and foreignness.

I know I sometimes saw reactions from viewers that were really dismissive of the USSR in general--like they couldn't really wrap their head around the idea that anyone there would actually see it as their home and love it the way someone in the US would. Paige isn't arrogant in that way, but the place clearly isn't real to her. She never asks about learning to speak Russian, for instance. She actually brings it up as another thing that would be absurd. She was never prepared to live there while to Philip and Elizabeth it was always a perfectly valid alternative. They didn't want to be there alone, but that's its own issue. But plenty of kids in Paige's class might have a genuine interest even without a family background. They might totally live there at some point.

One thing I thought we might see as the ending that wasn't was Elizabeth seeing herself as responsible for a lot of the sorrow through her choices. So many times Philip wanted to leave with the kids when that was still a possibility. It was a possibility at the end of season 5. That was her last chance to turn down the idea and it sealed their fate of being separated from the kids abruptly. I thought surely it was leading to that but it really wasn't at all.

My mum used to be surprised by all the "America is the greatest land in the world!" type stuff that was in television adverts, or just everywhere. We didn't have that sort of thing in England. After living here for so long again (28 years), I have trouble with the idea of going back at my age, most likely alone, let alone living somewhere else. I do understand their feelings for their home, though (complicated now, but it's their home). 

I quoted you for another reason, though: I'm loosely acquainted with someone whose college-age daughter will be going to live in Russia next year. It sounds so exciting, but so different. I've wished that I knew her well enough to ask her all about it: why did she want to learn Russian? What is it about the country? She's a political science major. I have another friend who loves Russia. She visited with family, as a child, and then again a few years ago, with a friend. 

 

1 hour ago, Steph J said:

I'm not sure that's entirely true. Certainly he didn't love her the way that he loved Elizabeth, but I think that he did have some genuine, deep feelings for her (feelings that were not just guilt) by the time that whole operation fell apart and she had to be put on a plane.

Speaking of Martha, I was really hoping that we'd get to see her one more time in this episode, even though I know that her storyline was pretty well wrapped up already. It's weird, because I remember finding Martha kind of annoying in the first season, but she really grew on me over time.

I'm glad we didn't see Martha. I just hope she got her daughter, and managed to find some happiness. 

32 minutes ago, TimWil said:

I would have liked it if the “happy family” at McDonalds was actually Young-hee with her husband and children. Of course Philip would have had no idea who they were.

It was so typical that their last meal in America, was McDonalds. And so sad. 

[anonymiss]

53 minutes ago, Dev F said:

See, I feel exactly the opposite. If Paige's reaction to learning that her parents were murderous monsters is just to get really mad and storm off, nothing could be less interesting to me. "Middle-class American girl is horrified by murder" is a real "Dog bites man" story, you know?

So I was glad the writers made the decision to avoid that revelation altogether (in a way that felt believable to me, since it was something her mother was deliberately keeping from her), so Paige could instead confront something much more difficult and nuanced than "Murder is bad" -- namely, the fact that she'd spent her whole teenage life trying to bring a sense of normalcy to a life that could never be normal. (And, yes, the fact that spies have to murder people is a part of why that's the case, but bringing that issue to the forefront would've inevitably drowned out everything else.)

 

This reminds me I noticed Paige's reaction when Philip told Stan Elizabeth uncovered the plot against Gorbachev. Paige was her usual wide-eyed self but she also seemed to be looking her mom up and down, as if reevaluating her black-and-white characterization of her mom from their last exchange. At least, that's what I like to believe for why it was her and Elizabeth in the frame for this reveal.

Edited June 2, 2018 by anonymiss

[sistermagpie]

40 minutes ago, Dev F said:

See, I feel exactly the opposite. If Paige's reaction to learning that her parents were murderous monsters is just to get really mad and storm off, nothing could be less interesting to me. "Middle-class American girl is horrified by murder" is a real "Dog bites man" story, you know?

So I was glad the writers made the decision to avoid that revelation altogether (in a way that felt believable to me, since it was something her mother was deliberately keeping from her), so Paige could instead confront something much more difficult and nuanced than "Murder is bad" -- namely, the fact that she'd spent her whole teenage life trying to bring a sense of normalcy to a life that could never be normal. (And, yes, the fact that spies have to murder people is a part of why that's the case, but bringing that issue to the forefront would've inevitably drowned out everything else.)

I agree. I thought the way they did was the best way they could, actually. Paige already had her moment of confronting Elizabeth as a liar. Not about murder, but about something also important to Paige, sex. Sex was about intimacy, something Paige desperately wants, and here's her mother who's married using it to hurt other people. That, to me, was her moment of waking up.

But still, when there was a crisis by habit she followed her parents. But I believe that it was only sitting on a train alone--which she had to be because they had to travel separately--that she got a chance to think clearly to herself. She wasn't fighting with her mom or talking to her. She was just really thinking about everything that had happened, probably Henry and what Philip said about him. Philip, the parent that it was understood ran Henry's department. Here he was talking about how it was better for him to be free.

Paige stepping off the train was a private moment she needed to do by herself. If her parents were there certainly I think Philip, especially, would have supported her decision, but it was important that it wasn't a decision she made against them or while talking to them. It was her taking the step she knew was right without any influence from them. For so long Paige has wanted her parents to react to her every thought and feeling. Here her thought process was hidden from them and therefore us.

I actually like how everyone's futures are uncertain.

40 minutes ago, Dev F said:

I dunno, I feel like Philip and Elizabeth's resolution is pretty definitive. They were the Russians trying to adjust to life in America, and now they're the Americans trying to adjust to life in Russia. Whatever happens, they'll get through it together, because they've lived the same story before. It's the end because it's the beginning.

It's so funny that I had totally considered this type ending plenty of times just for that symmetry but never ever thought they'd do it. Really as important as everyone else is in the story, this starts with two kids who were younger than Paige and Henry when they were sent into this. Now in a way they're taking a similar step to Paige, starting again without orders or a clear path ahead. They have each other--but then, Paige is in a familiar place at least.

21 minutes ago, missy jo said:

What was the point of Phillip telling Stan he wished he stayed in EST?

I thought it was what he told Stan--EST is about those moments where you know what to do as yourself instead of as a role you're supposed to play. How do you move forward in the dark room? I think Philip really did believe that it was Stan's true nature to let them go. Really a lot of the characters faced those kind of surprising character-defining moments this season, the ones that proved who they really were. Elizabeth killing Tatiana, Philip working with Oleg, Paige getting off the train, Stan letting the Jennings go. I couldn't think of one for Henry, but I think that's the point. (His reaction to losing his tuition certainly shows something of his character, but that's more just a problem to be solved, not a character defining moment since it's not a big choice.)

1 minute ago, anonymiss said:

This reminds me I noticed Paige's reaction when Philip told Stan Elizabeth uncovered the plot against Gorbachev. Paige was her usual wide-eyed self but she also seemed to be looking her mom up and down, as if reevaluating her black-and-white characterization of her mom from their last exchange. At least, that's what I like to believe for why she was included in the frame for this reveal.

Maybe that moment was also important because Paige doesn't seem to have any clue about conflicted Russia. Here she was spying for the place and it turns out there was some plot going on she wouldn't even really get. I think they also show her reaction when Elizabeth and Philip throw away their wedding rings and put on new ones. She has no idea what they're doing or why they're doing it--probably wouldn't understand why they're putting them on their right hands even if she can deduce these must be somehow their wedding rings.

This is, after all, all leading up to Paige realizing that she can't keep pretending she "gets it" - especially if "it" is her parents' marriage. They have each other. She'll always be an outsider to the couple. Her reaction to everything is very different from theirs. She can't just accept that "this is how it works" when they're bugging out, can't understand their pov on Henry because she doesn't understand the world like they do, doesn't get the wedding rings, doesn't know who would try to get Gorbachev or why. Her parents could literally have secret conversations in front of her in their own language. All these things, I think, add up to how impossible it is for her to leave the US.

[EtheltoTillie]

1 hour ago, ava111 said:

As someone from former eastern bloc who has lived in USA for the past 21 years I can tell you that going back to speak the other language would take a while. I barely ever speak my first language, I talk to my family maybe once every two months, read in English, watch TV shows in English, dream in English, everything is in English. I realized few years back that I have sometimes difficulty to remember the word I want to use in my first language. Haven't been "home" in 10 years. I don't even have citizenship yet but I consider USA my home now. Imagine P and E were never even allowed to speak Russian, they didn't watch movies or read books in that language as they would be discouraged to do that, they didn't even eat the Russian dish Claudia made. I on the other hand have books and movies in my first language in my home and can speak to my family. And I still have difficulty now after 21 years. They have been in USA even longer. So start talking immediately as they get to Russia in their first language wouldn't happen. The sentence structures in English and Russian (and in my Slavic language) are completely different and it's not easy to switch the thinking plus remember the words after so many years. It would be different if they would use both languages similar amount of the time. So no, it's not as easy as riding the bike after 20 years.

Also want to add that they spoke Russian till teens and after that they had to train and learn English so since that time they would be encouraged to speak only English. I came to USA at 26 and barely spoke any English. So they had even less time when they used their first language. At this moment when the story ends they spoke English longer than Russian during their lives.

 

I have always been fascinated by the idea of their language training. I know quite a few people in the Brooklyn Russian diaspora (people who came in the 80s or 90s), and those who came here as teens have never lost their accents (of course, unlike P & E, they continue to speak Russian in the community). P & E would have had to work very hard to learn and internalize the American pronunciations. Matthew Rhys reverts to Welsh accent when he speaks English in real life. 

Edited June 2, 2018 by GussieK

[Anela]

7 minutes ago, GussieK said:

I have always been fascinated by the idea of their language training. I know quite a few people in the Brooklyn Russian diaspora (people who came in the 80s or 90s), and those who came here as teens have never lost their accents (of course, unlike P & E, they continue to speak Russian in the community). P & E would have had to work very hard to learn and internalize the American pronunciations. Matthew Rhys reverts to Welsh accent when he speaks English in real life. 

You've just reminded me, that I know a Russian woman who has been in Australia for years. Our group of friends at the time (six years ago) posted our voices on the internet, so that we could really hear each other, not just read, she she still had the most beautiful accent! I wasn't expecting it at all. She's busy living this fantastic life, posting pictures from her travels, I still think of her as Australian.

[Erin9]

I don’t remember who it was up thread, but Newhart popped in my head too when we suddenly saw Gregory. I didn’t watch the show, but the finale is pretty legendary. My initial response when I first saw Gregory and didn’t realize it was a dream was pure shock and WTH is going on. Lol I’m sure the writers got a kick out of that. 

I’ve read in several places that Henry was abandoned by his parents and Paige abandoned her parents. I really dislike the use of that word. Admittedly, they used that  word regarding Henry IIRC, but I don’t like it. They did this FOR Henry. As awful as it was, they put him first. He belonged in America. And I hope Paige explains just that to him. In the end, I think she understood that.

And Paige didn’t do this to her parents or to hurt them, but because she didn’t belong where they were going either. She needed to be herself too. Gotta love that Philip said that to both his kids. Maybe Philip will get a little credit in absentia? One can hope. 

The one thing I didn’t like about Philip wisely giving Elizabeth most of the credit for figuring out the coup plot in front of Stan is it didn’t give him enough credit in front of Paige. 

[lavenderblue]

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think they did it all the time in situations like this. Like with Pastor Tim. Gabriel said they were living in a burning house and Philip said what else is new.  Or the guy Elizabeth allows to live in the warehouse.  Philip just says he won't tell anyone because it's done. It's the only way they could exist a lot of the time.

And there's another big example of realist Liz denying a harder likelihood to herself -- consistently asserting that Paige's only major obligation as a spy will be to obtain a well-placed desk job. I can buy them telling themselves what they need to where the kids are concerned moving forward.

[scartact]

2 hours ago, hellmouse said:

I will be interested in hearing more about your thoughts on the immigrant narrative. I'm not a child of immigrants so I don't have that direct experience. But one thing that was hugely different with P&E vs people I've known who are immigrants with American children is that P&E were hiding the very fact that they were immigrants. There were no chances to prepare food from "the old country". No holiday traditions to pass on. No favorite songs or books to share. No phrases said in exasperation or delight in the native tongue. Even without extended family, there are all kinds of ways that children learn about their family heritage without ever realizing it and P&E worked very hard to make sure that their children never knew anything at all. I think that's part of why the Russian culture lessons with Paige didn't really work. It was all too foreign, and too outdated. The Great Patriotic War didn't mean enough to her. If she'd heard about it as a child, it might have seeped into her subconscious without her realizing. Maybe if they'd introduced her to someone from Russia or the greater USSR who was closer to her own age it might have felt more real to her.

I suspect Elizabeth also feels she failed her children., but probably in different ways or to different degrees. I hope they would be able to talk about it with each other. 

That's very true that the family never had that bicultural experience in the way that myself and other first generation _______-Americans have, so I suppose that also contributes to part of Paige's identity crisis of sorts. I wonder to what extent that identity hole existed in Paige's life because she never got to experience those touchstone traditional and cultural moments with her family, that on some unconscious level, she picked up on Philip and Elizabeth's rather vacuous personal history, and that vacuousness became something she herself internalized and tried to fill, whether with church or spying.

I reread @Dev F's brilliant post on Paige's attempts to normalize something that can never be normal, and I think in that sense, that's where the immigrant parent narrative/conceit ends. Within the generational gaps of immigrant parents and first generation American citizens, it's a cultural clash of upbringing, assimilating while still trying to maintain aspects of your home country. Reconciling what you are conditioned to learn within dominant U.S. culture with the ways that your home country is othered is tough. So while I can see some of this in Paige's narrative, there's also the equivocation she makes to Russia with spying. Does Paige ever get to learn about her family's lineage without the context of her parents being Soviet spies? Now that she's firmly decided to stay in the U.S, will she ever try to actually take the time to learn about the history of her family's country, without Claudia and Elizabeth necessarily pushing her toward an ideological perspective?

I firmly believe that Paige must have known on some level that she would not complete this trip with her parents during that phone call with Henry, and especially after it.

I also suspect Elizabeth feels she failed her children too. In some ways, Elizabeth's almost blind belief that she could extract her children from their American upbringing and take them to the USSR, where they will somehow learn to assimilate into a culture that was never passed down to them in ways that a usual immigrant family might have (not even Paige's history lessons with Liz and Claudia could necessarily make up for that), is Elizabeth at her most ideal and naive. For all that toughness, there's a certain level of idealism she maintains(/ed) that Philip never did, in contrast to some of Philip's more realistic and leveled approach. I imagine that when Elizabeth realized Paige got off the train, she was completely gut punched and didn't see it coming at all, while perhaps on some level, Philip was more prepared for it (not that it made the shock of it any easier for him to handle).

[30 Helens]

I’m surprised by the number of people who feel that the garage scene was a betrayal of Stan’s character; that he, as a trained agent, would never have let them go. In my view, it was inevitable.

Not just because of Stan’s genuine feelings towards Philip.
Not just because of Stan’s protective instincts regarding Henry.
Not just because he believes the Jennings were working on the side of good, at the end.
Not just because he was taken off guard by the Renee revelation.

It was all of this and more. Stan was never an agent who was afraid to disregard protocol, if he felt it was for the right reasons. Let’s not forget his secret alliance with Oleg, after all. There was no way he would stop the Jennings from completing their mission, if he felt it would further world peace.

I actually felt that the actions taken by everyone in this episode were very true to character, and left each of them in a place that felt right. I tend to dislike ambiguous endings as a rule, but here I think I got just enough information to project the future without having all the details filled in. And I liked that approach.

The only thing that was really left up in the air was Renee, and... oh, who m I kidding. She’s TOTALLY a spy.

I thought this finale was beautiful and perfect, and damn I’m going to miss this show.

[BW Manilowe]

12 hours ago, scartact said:

[Side note: I've thought about doing a rewatch, but I've been a bit too busy to do it! Plus, I might need some time away from the show since it only just ended. However, I hope yours goes well!]

But yes, that all makes sense. I'm just thinking back now to when Philip was reflecting on their first meeting and how he told Gabe he felt a spark; but then in a different scene I recall him telling Elizabeth that when they first met he knew she felt disappointed in some way. That makes me wonder if she was always going to be disappointed no matter what, though Gabe allows that (assuming this is true) she rejected two officers before saying yes to him, so in her own way she chose Philip.

But I do like and buy into the notion that once she was able to reveal who she was to Philip (and most likely vice versa for Philip -- offscreen of course!), she couldn't have fallen in love with him. Especially because we know now how much Liz keeps incredibly close to her chest and compartmentalizes. That "We could have met on a bus," under any other circumstances, is so unlike her, but that's almost what I love most about it. The idea that she proposes it to someone it took her 14 years to fall in love with, when he was pretty much all in from the moment he met her.

ETA: Forgot to also say that I think because the onus is on her to fall in love with him, that's what makes it fitting that it's her to propose this small happenstance idea.

 

I read this on Twitter, but didn't realize it never got too brought up on here? But yeah, interesting title choice for sure. Other than irony, what are your thoughts on it?

I'd actually have to watch the rebroadcast later today (Saturday)/early tomorrow (Sunday) at midnight Eastern to comment on the ep content. I fell asleep (I know... How could you? It was the series finale!) & only caught snatches of dialogue when I'd wake up for a few seconds at a time. I blew all the showings Wednesday night into early Thursday; but, luckily, I still have the airing overnight tonight (Saturday) to actually see it.

[BW Manilowe]

12 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Any color but red.

 

Apropos of nothing except what color nail polish women who are part of a certain group of people would wear, like we're positing (& I know the comment was probably more like a joke) that KGB women (at least probably women who weren't on deep undercover assignments where they were pretending to be All-American women) wear any color nail polish but red, the women in the British Royal Family aren't supposed to wear anything but clear or really pale colored polish (usually a pale pink tone). Her Majesty wears "ballet slipper" by Essie.

Edited June 2, 2018 by BW Manilowe
To fix an unfinished sentence and fix some other things.

[queenanne]

9 hours ago, Haleth said:

At least Paige got slapped with the reality that playing spy isn't a big adventure.  I only wish she had learned that her parents were ruthless murderers.  All those deaths Stan mentioned?  Yeah, them.

I feel like to some extent we're expected to handwave this because of the "foils plot to kill Gorbachev" moment.

What does everyone (anyone?) think in retrospect now was the point of Philip basically pointing out to Paige in her apartment that there's no way that Paige would be able to take down any type of relatively trained male in hand-to-hand combat, just because she's managed to get a couple hits on her mother?  Do you think this is foreshadowing wishing that she'd do what she did; namely, give up the plan and say "this is insane, I'm not cut out for this life"?  Because Philip is an interesting conundrum, for me.  Except for the fact that he, well, does it, I've never felt Philip had much attachment to actual Russia, until he started feeling bad about the consequences of the wheat ploy, and even that is partial "Why does our government not simply use their wheat like America does?"  For me, Philip simply enjoys America; or did, until he started not being able to make money and realizing that maybe he can't actually turn a profit.

Also, I've wondered for years really, do people have any frame of reference for whether or not it would be usual for half of a pair of embedded spies to say "O well, I'm tired of this and am not going to do any more missions", without its really resulting in the foreign government arranging for the defector to take a well-timed dirt nap?  It's always seemed so implausible to me.  "I'm out of the life now!  Don't ask me!"  Especially when illness meaning he couldn't do his job anymore, resulted in Gabe's being shipped back to Russia...

[JennyMominFL]

My only family was my mother, sister and brother. There were no aunts, no uncles, no cousins no grandparents. I don’t remember ever finishing it wired or being asked about it.

[JennyMominFL]

3 hours ago, BW Manilowe said:

Apropos of nothing except what color nail polish women who are part of a certain group of people would wear, like we're positing (& I know the comment was probably more like a joke) that KGB women (at least probably women who weren't on deep undercover assignments where they were pretending to be All-American women) wear any color nail polish but red, the women in the British Royal Family aren't supposed to wear anything but clear or really pale colored polish (usually a pale pink tone). Her Majesty wears "ballet slipper" by Essie.

 

Weirdly, in the Marines, the only color lipstick we were allowed to wear was bright red. A man must have come up with that. It looked terrible on me

Edited June 2, 2018 by JennyMominFL

[Milburn Stone]

10 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Nussbaum's dissection in the New Yorker of the garage scene (which is chilling) is the best I have read and I think (suspect) is spot-on to what the writers intended ... 

Emily Nussbaum is the best thing going, I think, so I read her piece with great interest. But my reaction to the garage scene was different from hers. She sees Philip's monologue as basically his best performance yet, masterfully exploiting Stan's need for connection. You might say that in her view, he has weaponized sincerity. And she may be right (along with those of you who have said similar things). But I saw something else. I saw Philip being 100% real at last. Did he know that this was his best strategy? Absolutely! AND every word that came out of his mouth was his deeply felt truth.

[Clanstarling]

13 hours ago, ava111 said:

As someone from former eastern bloc who has lived in USA for the past 21 years I can tell you that going back to speak the other language would take a while. I barely ever speak my first language, I talk to my family maybe once every two months, read in English, watch TV shows in English, dream in English, everything is in English. I realized few years back that I have sometimes difficulty to remember the word I want to use in my first language.

 

I had a similar experience with my second language (my mother, brother, and sister's first language). I was fluent when I came back to America permanently, having gone to a non-american school while overseas. 12 years later, I went back on a visit, and was fairly proud of myself for doing well with the language - until I got "home" and I couldn't understand a thing my cousin said to me when I got off the train. The dialect was too thick. These days, I'll find videos of people speaking that dialect when I get homesick, as I have no family left to talk to.

13 hours ago, Pink-n-Green said:

Your assertion that in America citizens are usually not believed to be guilty by association is a noble one but, unfortunately, incorrect.  OK?

 

Anyone believing that should read "The Innocent Man" by John Grisham (not a novel, it is non-fiction). It's about a man who was sentenced to death because someone claimed to have seen him with the victim before she was killed (a lie, as it turned out), and because he was a pretty unlikeable guy. That was the only "evidence." Also convicted, for nothing but association, was another man who got together with him to play music. This was in the 80's. Horrifying.

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I actually like how everyone's futures are uncertain.

Me too. I do have complicated feelings about it - on the one hand, I want things wrapped up in a bow - but on the other - life is never wrapped up in a bow. All of us have uncertain futures, because that is the nature of life. I generally get pissed when a story ends ambiguously, then come around to "that was probably the best way to end it."

4 hours ago, JennyMominFL said:

Weirdly, in the Marines, the only color lipstick we were allowed to wear was bright red. A man must have come up with that. It looked terrible on me

 

That is strange. My vague notion as an Air Force brat was that makeup wasn't allowed at all (back in the 70's), but I could be totally wrong about that.

4 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Emily Nussbaum is the best thing going, I think, so I read her piece with great interest. But my reaction to the garage scene was different from hers. She sees Philip's monologue as basically his best performance yet, masterfully exploiting Stan's need for connection. You might say that in her view, he has weaponized sincerity. And she may be right (along with those of you who have said similar things). But I saw something else. I saw Philip being 100% real at last. Did he know that this was his best strategy? Absolutely! AND every word that came out of his mouth was his deeply felt truth.

Yes! Two things can be true at the same time. It's a concept that is often difficult to navigate (speaking personally), but I agree, with the exception of "not killers" part of the discussion.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Clanstarling

[whiporee]

2 hours ago, JennyMominFL said:

Weirdly, in the Marines, the only color lipstick we were allowed to wear was bright red. A man must have come up with that. It looked terrible on me

That's the oddest thing I've read in a long time. Only bright red? Every time I think I get a handle on the way women are thought of and treated in every day life, something like that pops up and I have to shake my head. Weird (and sort of gross) policy to have.  

[SunnyBeBe]

11 hours ago, ava111 said:

As someone from former eastern bloc who has lived in USA for the past 21 years I can tell you that going back to speak the other language would take a while. I barely ever speak my first language, I talk to my family maybe once every two months, read in English, watch TV shows in English, dream in English, everything is in English. I realized few years back that I have sometimes difficulty to remember the word I want to use in my first language. Haven't been "home" in 10 years. I don't even have citizenship yet but I consider USA my home now. Imagine P and E were never even allowed to speak Russian, they didn't watch movies or read books in that language as they would be discouraged to do that, they didn't even eat the Russian dish Claudia made. I on the other hand have books and movies in my first language in my home and can speak to my family. And I still have difficulty now after 21 years. They have been in USA even longer. So start talking immediately as they get to Russia in their first language wouldn't happen. The sentence structures in English and Russian (and in my Slavic language) are completely different and it's not easy to switch the thinking plus remember the words after so many years. It would be different if they would use both languages similar amount of the time. So no, it's not as easy as riding the bike after 20 years.

Also want to add that they spoke Russian till teens and after that they had to train and learn English so since that time they would be encouraged to speak only English. I came to USA at 26 and barely spoke any English. So they had even less time when they used their first language. At this moment when the story ends they spoke English longer than Russian during their lives.

I appreciate your account of having two languages.  It does cause me to wonder if Philip had any premonition of their bugout and that's why he rented that Russian movie that was in Russian language. (Getting familiar with Russian.)  AND he got that suit tailored.  Were they because, he sensed he was going to be leaving the US?  

[Bannon]

15 hours ago, anonymiss said:

Asshole parents do that, but I don't see any evidence that P&E are asshole parents (just in a highly compromising profession but doing the best they can with it). Paige certainly doesn't blame herself for anything and I think as Henry grows up (he's already mature for his age) he will be as well adjusted as one can be given his circumstances, and will realize his parents wanted to salvage whatever they could of his childhood so he could still have a bright future.

I'd say creating a human being primarily for purpose of advancing your professional goals kind of makes you an asshole, even when you see your professional goals as an Important Cause. I'd say enlisting one of your children into criminal actvity, including murder, makes you an asshole, even when you really, really, really, really, believe that your political objectives makes murder an acceptable activity. I'd say lying to your child on a daily basis about the your life makes you an asshole, even when you think it is really, really, really important to lie.

[Novel8]

I had to view it again, especially the Parking garage scene. I could see how Stan had to let them go, for the sincerity of Philips explanation. He believed him and probably satisfied, though jolted, that Philip warned him about Renee. Now, the part that Elizabeth said., "we didn't kill anyone'' still threw me off bitterly, but again understood why she wouldn't admit it. As for Philip's asking. "who's Oleg"? Didn't he just met him at the park? I was really surprised to see Paige on the station as the train went on. Now Philip and Liz were childless...but like they say, that is the price one has to pay, plus their 'welcoming' arrival in Mother Russia. Who know's what is in store for them there. Finally, i was confused with the appearance of snow as they got out of the car and looked at a city. Were they in Russia, already, though they showed them traveling via cars, and train, but no airplane boarding, or were they looking at the USA for the last time. All in all, the ending has a making for a sequel, perhaps that was the intention of the writers. Unfortunately, Keri and Matthew Rhys,  great as they performed in this show, do not have the makings of mega stars, and may look forward to a sequel.

[Penman61]

28 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I'd say creating a human being primarily for purpose of advancing your professional goals kind of makes you an asshole, even when you see your professional goals as an Important Cause. I'd say enlisting one of your children into criminal actvity, including murder, makes you an asshole, even when you really, really, really, really, believe that your political objectives makes murder an acceptable activity. I'd say lying to your child on a daily basis about the your life makes you an asshole, even when you think it is really, really, really important to lie.

I've said above I think P & E's having children as spy cover is their "original sin" that essentially doomed any lasting, stable family life for them all together, so I pretty much agree with this.

But let's not pretend that nearly ALL parents don't have children for essentially ideological reasons--they just don't label them "ideological."  They would say their reasons for having children are "instinctual" or "cultural" or "religious," but they are all systems of ideas and beliefs that drive the decision.  Does that make them assholes, too?  Maybe.  I suppose we could get into a debate about which ideology is more "pure" for child-rearing purposes.  Certainly spy-cover (at least in my argument) is a child-having ideology that was doomed and had a whole host of other problems that you rightly list.  But other ideologies are nearly as harmful, I'd argue: think of ideologies that don't allow women birth control and result in more children than the family can support or care for, ideologies that favor one gender of child over another, that prescribe one gender of parent as the primary caregiver, etc.

Anyway, Paige and Henry were doomed from the start, IMHO and that they ended up separated from their parents--possibly forever--is one of the many marks of story-telling integrity from TPTB on this show.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Penman61

[Bannon]

10 hours ago, Dev F said:

I disagree. That's something Philip was always tortured by -- stealing propeller plans that ended up sinking a Russian submarine, acquiring deadly viruses for defensive purposes that were instead used to murder mujahideen, killing innocent people to prevent a plague of midges only to discover that they were being used to eliminate famines, not cause them. The missions that left Philip feeling like he'd genuinely had a positive impact were few and far between.

See, I feel exactly the opposite. If Paige's reaction to learning that her parents were murderous monsters is just to get really mad and storm off, nothing could be less interesting to me. "Middle-class American girl is horrified by murder" is a real "Dog bites man" story, you know?

So I was glad the writers made the decision to avoid that revelation altogether (in a way that felt believable to me, since it was something her mother was deliberately keeping from her), so Paige could instead confront something much more difficult and nuanced than "Murder is bad" -- namely, the fact that she'd spent her whole teenage life trying to bring a sense of normalcy to a life that could never be normal. (And, yes, the fact that spies have to murder people is a part of why that's the case, but bringing that issue to the forefront would've inevitably drowned out everything else.)

I dunno, I feel like Philip and Elizabeth's resolution is pretty definitive. They were the Russians trying to adjust to life in America, and now they're the Americans trying to adjust to life in Russia. Whatever happens, they'll get through it together, because they've lived the same story before. It's the end because it's the beginning.

Certainly, some of the other character get a less definitive ending -- particularly Oleg. But it's not like they ran out of time or something; it just wouldn't make narrative sense to continue the supporting characters' storylines beyond the end of the main characters'. And even the characters that didn't get closure per se were brought to a meaningfully new place, from Paige giving up her quixotic quest for normalcy, to Stan setting aside conscience-salving distractions for the first time to be there for someone he loves. Even Oleg completes his transformation from devil-may-care playboy to doomed defender of what's right, while his father confronts the most crushing limits of his ability to wave his influence at every problem and make it go away.

What is believable about Paige acting as a lookout for a warehouse break-in, in which her mother shoots 3 people to death, and Paige never learns of the murders? Triple slayings at warehouse break-ins aren't newsworthy in the D.C. media market? Paige pays no attention to the local news? We also have mom carving up a the Navy guy who obnoxiously took Paige's id. I guess Paige just missed that in the news, too. On top of the whole "Golly, Paige, the General was just troubled, and I was doing a suicide intervention" nonsense. There was much to love about this show, but I'll not miss the too frequent extremely lazy writing. 

I will agree that there is little interest, per se, in Paige being horrified by murder. There may have been some interest, however, in Paige starting on a path of thinking for herself via knowledge of her parents' violence, resulting in Paige explicitly rejecting her mother's Faith, and make no mistake, Paige's mother is a Faith-driven religious zealot.

[watch2much]

nothing to add but that the best show on TV has now ended!  Love or disappointed in the finale, the acting was superb.  Mathew Rhys was on the mark as always and I viscerally felt Elizabeth's pain when she saw Paige on the platform.  I did find it ironic for Elizabeth to be musing on their "raising" of their kids.  The kids were left alone a lot, parents gone at a moments notice etc.....so it was the ultimate punishment for them to lose their children when they could have finally had time to be better parents and  to realize their children are better off without them and chose (at least Paige) to be without them.

[SunnyBeBe]

I would welcome another Americans project of any kind, but, imo, the showrunners wouldn't get behind something like that.  But, IDK, I suppose anything is possible.  I also wonder if some of the cast members would be on board.  Based on what I have read, most actors from longrunning series, are done with that project and really eager to move forward.  

This is my response to your questions, based on what I recall.  E did deny killing people.  I think she knew she had to keep up that facade, even if they were admitting to being spies and to do other stuff.  I suspect they knew they couldn't push Stan too far. They guy that P had just met with in the park was Father Andrei.  P knew his name. I'm not so sure that he knew Oleg's name.  He did meet with him twice, then stopped. He knew the guy and his purpose, but, not really his name. But, P put 2 and 2 together when Stan said what Oleg had said to him about the conspiracy to oust Gorbachev. 

Over on the START thread, there are a couple of theories on their travel route to Russia.  The car took them to upstate NY, then the train into Canada.  Then, they were shown on an airplane. They weren't sitting together.  It's speculated they were flying to some country, where they would have gotten a car and drove to the Soviet border, entered there, signaled to Arkady to meet them, then he drove them forward for a long while since, they drove for a full day then, Arkady drove them into the night. All of this time in Russia.  

Edited June 2, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Erin9]

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Emily Nussbaum is the best thing going, I think, so I read her piece with great interest. But my reaction to the garage scene was different from hers. She sees Philip's monologue as basically his best performance yet, masterfully exploiting Stan's need for connection. You might say that in her view, he has weaponized sincerity. And she may be right (along with those of you who have said similar things). But I saw something else. I saw Philip being 100% real at last. Did he know that this was his best strategy? Absolutely! AND every word that came out of his mouth was his deeply felt truth.

I’d love to know what Paige’s take away was from what Philip did. He ran that confrontation- as he should have. It wasn’t Elizabeth taking the dominant role. It was him. That’s very different from what she’s used to seeing. And he successfully got them out of the garage without anyone getting hurt, killed or arrested. It had to make an impression on her. 

I think it was both. It was honest and a brilliant, masterful play to get out alive. 

Philip was mostly honest- aside from things like giving Elizabeth too much credit for the coup and killing. And he knew that being honest was his best strategy. Denial wasn’t working. Mostly honesty was his best bet. But he had to decide to go there. And he had to quickly assess what to say and how to say it to Stan so they could walk out. That’s not easy, especially under extreme stress. It’s not just being honest- it’s what to say. What does Stan need to hear? What words will get them out? 

But he was not going to surrender period. And- he was the primary decision maker of the 3 here. That was something that really stood out to me- no surrender. And surely to Paige. Not once was he prepared to heed Stan’s commands. Stan was livid, and he did not back down. He just kept talking and talking getting Stan to see them as people, parents, patriots, people with a job to do, etc. 

Something else Paige surely heard was a real passion for the fate of their country, a desire to make it better.  I don’t think Paige had ever heard her parents talk like that about home- certainly not from Philip anyway. They HAD to get home to deliver that message. Had to. 

[JennyMominFL]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

 

That is strange. My vague notion as an Air Force brat was that makeup wasn't allowed at all (back in the 70's), but I could be totally wrong about that

Different branches do have different rules though.. plus I joined in 88, we could definitely wear makeup

ETA, just did a google search and apparently In The 70s and early 80s female recruits were given a makeup kit. Eye shadow had to be blue, mascara brown and lipstick was scarlet red to match the blood stripe on many uniforms. In fact, early one women Marines were required to wear makeup.  Current regulations still require shades of red, but they consider pinks and burgundy to be on the spectrum . https://www.trngcmd.marines.mil/Portals/207/Docs/FMTBE/Student Materials/MCECST/MCRD-UNIF-1003_4 Civilian Attire and Personal Appearance (1).doc?ver=2016-06-29-124156-890

 

the other thing that was annoying was that we were allowed to have  long hair but it had to be up with no pins or elastics showing .  That was tough.  Elizabeth has always reminded me of the of the other WMs. Devotion to the cause, willingness to do things without question, love of country

Edited June 2, 2018 by JennyMominFL

[Bannon]

13 hours ago, Razzberry said:

The show was good and kind of addictive, but too many of the main characters as written never resonated with me like they did to others.  They had all the fixins for a great stew.  It would have been interesting to see an average American teenager in those circumstances, but Paige isn't one.  Then they make her even MORE annoying by so much screen time about silly sparring sessions, etc. while at the same time dumbing her down to little more than..a.. timid...question mark?  ALL of this, just for the train-jumping FU.  It's like they had the ending years ago, and Paige was a creaky writer's device to get there. Epic fail, to me anyway.

Neglect and abuse of Stan's character for a semi-sappy ending with our two favorite illegals is more bs.  His exposition on Thanksgiving was only to make his dilemma in the garage more gripping, but dumbed down characters don't grip me, they infuriate me.  I can't help but think of wasted opportunity and how much better it would have been if only their nemisis had been written as smart.  

Bottom line, they just didn't convince me of this alleged powerful bond between them that would make Stan act the way he did, but I agree the actor was fantastic.

These are all hallmarks of writers who either have a talent deficit, or aren't really trying hard enough. As means of contrast, again, I suggest thinking about Hank in Breaking Bad, vs. Stan in The Americans. Stan was whatever the writers needed him to be season to season, episode to episode. He was a writer's tool of convenience. Hank was a real person, who did evolve, but in a very organic way.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Bannon

[Mrs peel]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

After some reflection, and also after making up Best and Worst case outcomes for our main characters in the Americans part 2 thread?

As an episode, I would definitely give this a A, perhaps even an A+.  It kept me glued, it surprised me, it touched me, and it didn't end in bloodshed, which would have been far too easy.

As a series finale?  It's only about a B-or maybe even a C+ for me. 

There is no real ending here.  Every single character on screen was left with several possible futures, from the horrible to the mundane and back up to maybe even happy ones.  It's a "write your own ending" ending.

Oleg may be released or not.  Paige may go to prison or not.  Stan may be arrested or not.  Henry may stay in school or not.  Philip and Elizabeth may be killed by the Coup people or may go on to be miserable in Russia, or may do well in the "new Russia" to come, absolutely any of these possibilities are easy to imagine.  Renee may be a spy, or not, she may get caught or not. 

They gave not a single glimmer of closure for the show.  It's just another day in the life of the characters, all facing possible ruin...or not.

I didn't expect a neat bow, but I did expect a bit more than this.

I disagree.  For me, the ultimate question of the show was always what they would do when the inevitable end of their spy lives happened.  Do they go back to the USSR?  Do they go on the run?  Do they turn and make a deal with the FBI?  I’ve been interested in all the other characters, but what happened to Phillip and Elizabeth has always been the core.  

[Mrs peel]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I appreciate your account of having two languages.  It does cause me to wonder if Philip had any premonition of their bugout and that's why he rented that Russian movie that was in Russian language. (Getting familiar with Russian.)  AND he got that suit tailored.  Were they because, he sensed he was going to be leaving the US?  

But they had long planned the break-out, complete with disguises and false passports buried in the woods.  Phillip was never going to use that suit.

[MJ Frog]

3 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

But I saw something else. I saw Philip being 100% real at last. Did he know that this was his best strategy? Absolutely! AND every word that came out of his mouth was his deeply felt truth.

Absolutely. Things can be both true and manipulative at the same time. And these kinds of scenes are infinitely more interesting to me than just garden variety lying for one specific, self interested, end. Philip was trying to get his family out of there, first and foremost, but he really did feel bad, and had a genuine need to make Stan understand that the friendship was real, and the betrayal was not personal. I seem to be seeing a lot of this lately and I'm always riveted -- Killing Eve in particular has had a few scenes like this.

[Erin9]

Another thought- I do not think it was out of the realm of possibility that Stan could have started shooting in a blind rage. He could have just snapped.  He felt betrayed, hurt, angry, like he’d been made a fool out of. That Philip got them out of the garage the way he did was impressive on many levels. 

[hellmouse]

4 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Another thought- I do not think it was out of the realm of possibility that Stan could have started shooting in a blind rage. He could have just snapped.  He felt betrayed, hurt, angry, like he’d been made a fool out of. That Philip got them out of the garage the way he did was impressive on many levels. 

He was like a snake charmer. Just the sound of his voice seemed to lull Stan into acquiescence. I think it was @sistermagpie who called this ability Philip's "evil talent" - and here he was using it to fullest extent we've ever seen. It was his best performance because it was (almost) entirely truthful and he was saying it all as himself. He wasn't Clark convincing Martha to trust him, to believe him, to do the thing he wanted her to do - and he was always effective with Martha. He was Philip convincing Stan. And he did it. Amazing.

[SunnyBeBe]

17 minutes ago, Mrs peel said:

But they had long planned the break-out, complete with disguises and false passports buried in the woods.  Phillip was never going to use that suit.

Right.  What I meant is that he was getting the suit tailored to enjoy the experience, since it was likely that he may never get the opportunity again.  That he would die or get arrested in attempting to escape and that he would never get the chance to experience that kind of thing again.  I'm not sure if he would have had that kind of opportunity in Russia or not.  But, he couldn't know if his escape attempt would be successful. 

  Originally, I said that I thought P's suit was due to him planning to close the travel agency and he was going to apply for a job and would need the suit for job interviews. In retrospect, I'm not so sure. 

Edited June 2, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Bannon]

I need to give this thread up, because reading it continues to make me really irritated about the final episode, the garage scene especially. Here we have Stan, who has in the last 7 years has seen his partner murdered by the KGB, which so enraged Stan that he committed murder in response. He saw a colleague's life destroyed by the KGB via a false relationship, which then included another colleague being murdered. I'll even forget about what is entailed in Stan not strongly suspecting that Phil is Clark. Stan knows with 100% certainty that Phil and Liz were involved in murdering FBI colleagues a few days earlier in Chicago.

In the face of this reality, Phil's effort to convince Stan to let them go includes, among other things, a statement that he isn't involved in espionage anymore, and Phil remarking upon Phil's "shitty life"! And it works!  Stan is such a programmable robot he may as well have a role on Westworld! Stan forgets about all the people he cares about who no longer have a life, because of KGB illegals, including, with 100% certainty, this KGB illegal, because this KGB illegal is talking about his own shitty life, while blatantly lying about no longer doing KGB illegal stuff! 

That's it.Sorry for the monomania. Not another sentence on the topic. Promise.

[EtheltoTillie]

17 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I need to give this thread up, because reading it continues to make me really irritated about the final episode, the garage scene especially. Here we have Stan, who has in the last 7 years has seen his partner murdered by the KGB, which so enraged Stan that he committed murder in response. He saw a colleague's life destroyed by the KGB via a false relationship, which then included another colleague being murdered. I'll even forget about what is entailed in Stan not strongly suspecting that Phil is Clark. Stan knows with 100% certainty that Phil and Liz were involved in murdering FBI colleagues a few days earlier in Chicago.

In the face of this reality, Phil's effort to convince Stan to let them go includes, among other things, a statement that he isn't involved in espionage anymore, and Phil remarking upon Phil's "shitty life"! And it works!  Stan is such a programmable robot he may as well have a role on Westworld! Stan forgets about all the people he cares about who no longer have a life, because of KGB illegals, including, with 100% certainty, this KGB illegal, because this KGB illegal is talking about his own shitty life, while blatantly lying about no longer doing KGB illegal stuff! 

That's it.Sorry for the monomania. Not another sentence on the topic. Promise.

Bannon, like Roseanne, you won't be able to stay away!  LOL.

[Milburn Stone]

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Stan forgets about all the people he cares about who no longer have a life, because of KGB illegals, including, with 100% certainty, this KGB illegal, because this KGB illegal is talking about his own shitty life, while blatantly lying about no longer doing KGB illegal stuff!

I think the piece that explains why Stan relents on this point is the part of Philip's monologue where he--convincingly!--makes the case to Stan that he and Stan are both patriotic soldiers. Stan knows that he himself has murdered for his cause. So Philip's murder record only strengthens the bond. Stan can't view him as "the other."

Now, that piece couldn't possibly have worked without all the other pieces of the monologue. In isolation, it would have failed ludicrously. As would every other part of the monologue, if in isolation. It was the hitting of Stan on multiple fronts, one building on the next and in exactly the right order, that did the trick. Which wasn't a trick.

[Clanstarling]

58 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

Absolutely. Things can be both true and manipulative at the same time. And these kinds of scenes are infinitely more interesting to me than just garden variety lying for one specific, self interested, end. Philip was trying to get his family out of there, first and foremost, but he really did feel bad, and had a genuine need to make Stan understand that the friendship was real, and the betrayal was not personal. I seem to be seeing a lot of this lately and I'm always riveted -- Killing Eve in particular has had a few scenes like this.

I was trying to explain this to my husband (who is of the opposite point of view) - using the expression "two things can be true." I had to laugh, ultimately, because in our family I'm the hardened cynic and I completely bought it, and my husband is the nice guy who gives everyone the benefit of the doubt - and he's the one who didn't.

[shura]

13 hours ago, Dev F said:

I disagree. That's something Philip was always tortured by -- stealing propeller plans that ended up sinking a Russian submarine, acquiring deadly viruses for defensive purposes that were instead used to murder mujahideen, killing innocent people to prevent a plague of midges only to discover that they were being used to eliminate famines, not cause them. The missions that left Philip feeling like he'd genuinely had a positive impact were few and far between.

Right, but regardless of how sincerely Philip believes in what he is saying, it is simply not true that this last mission is finally, after all these years, something that is actually of consequence. To Philip's feelings maybe, but not to Stan or even to Elizabeth. Everything they did has done real damage to the US and its people. You think Philip does not realize that as he is EST-bombing Stan with his "weaponized sincerity" (love the phrase) in an effort to get Stan to let them go? Maybe, I don't know. It's hard to imagine that, when he lists "following Americans, recruiting Americans, being afraid of Americans", he forgets to include the "killing Americans" part because he sincerely doesn't remember about it at that moment. It is something that has been bothering him, how can he forget? No, he is choosing what to say and what to omit. It is manipulative.

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, Erin9 said:

The one thing I didn’t like about Philip wisely giving Elizabeth most of the credit for figuring out the coup plot in front of Stan is it didn’t give him enough credit in front of Paige. 

I note that in Emily Nussbaum's great take she says that Elizabeth is the only person there who really knows what he's doing. I could unfortunately believe that Paige didn't get it since one of the things of her character was how she really didn't understand the heart of spying. To her it probably did just sound like Philip giving up and asking for Stan to help. Although maybe not, after their sparring session? That might have given her a hint? But I think she still never became completely aware of the ruthlessness involved so it would be hard for her to wrap her mind around Philip's career.

It was also the only time she heard Philip talk about why he quit spying and I wonder if *that* made an impression. Elizabeth had always just talked about the life being "too hard" and in the past when Paige asked Philip why he stopped believing in things (this was when she thought they were just 60s activists) he said there were other ways to make a difference. But here I think she could have seen that she and Philip were sort of alike. He was disgusted by things like what happened to Jackson and he didn't think he was helping anybody. That was the key, that he didn't think he was helping. He hadn't stopped believing in things. He believed in them so much he wanted to stay true to them. Paige should do the same.

10 hours ago, lavenderblue said:

And there's another big example of realist Liz denying a harder likelihood to herself -- consistently asserting that Paige's only major obligation as a spy will be to obtain a well-placed desk job. I can buy them telling themselves what they need to where the kids are concerned moving forward.

Oh god, yes--great call. Also all of Elizabeth's claims that Paige was "good at this" during the season. She was more in denial than ever there because she couldn't really see a way to deal with the reality. She was kind of doing that back in the pilot saying the kids could be Socialists when Philip was telling her he could see she couldn't deal with the kids being American.

10 hours ago, scartact said:

I reread @Dev F's brilliant post on Paige's attempts to normalize something that can never be normal, and I think in that sense, that's where the immigrant parent narrative/conceit ends. Within the generational gaps of immigrant parents and first generation American citizens, it's a cultural clash of upbringing, assimilating while still trying to maintain aspects of your home country. Reconciling what you are conditioned to learn within dominant U.S. culture with the ways that your home country is othered is tough. So while I can see some of this in Paige's narrative, there's also the equivocation she makes to Russia with spying. Does Paige ever get to learn about her family's lineage without the context of her parents being Soviet spies? Now that she's firmly decided to stay in the U.S, will she ever try to actually take the time to learn about the history of her family's country, without Claudia and Elizabeth necessarily pushing her toward an ideological perspective?

This is definitely what I was thinking too. The real culture Elizabeth and Philip were exposing Paige too wasn't Russian at all, it was KGB. It was spying. It's not culturally Russian to lie or use people or murder--many do that, but so do lots of people who aren't Russian. Paige didn't relate to her grandmother at all but she did recognize *Gabriel* as family and Claudia, it seems, as well. Her Russian cultural lessons were also in the service of giving her the right ideology. She was always being taught stuff about how it was "better" in some way instead of getting familiar with actual cultural stuff that people live. Her parents couldn't even give her that because they'd cut themselves off from it so brutally.

It would be interesting if she ever had something to do with actual Russians and recognized her parents in some form, but of course it would be hard because they'd erased themselves so much. This, again, is why it seems like it would be so good if she could meet them after they've gone back to Russia. She doesn't get that perspective that other first gen kids would have.

9 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

It was all of this and more. Stan was never an agent who was afraid to disregard protocol, if he felt it was for the right reasons. Let’s not forget his secret alliance with Oleg, after all. There was no way he would stop the Jennings from completing their mission, if he felt it would further world peace.

Stan also, imo, wanted the chance to make the kind of right gesture Oleg did in S4 when he gave up William for the greater good.

6 hours ago, queenanne said:

What does everyone (anyone?) think in retrospect now was the point of Philip basically pointing out to Paige in her apartment that there's no way that Paige would be able to take down any type of relatively trained male in hand-to-hand combat, just because she's managed to get a couple hits on her mother?  Do you think this is foreshadowing wishing that she'd do what she did; namely, give up the plan and say "this is insane, I'm not cut out for this life"? 

I do think Philip was hoping to put Paige off the life. It's like Colonel What's-his-name wanted him to know--it's not some big adventure. He started out telling her he understood the rush you got from beating down somebody who threatened you. But it's a dangerous rush. Sparring was really the thing that got Paige started on this path. It was her mother's solution to all her fears and insecurity. It would make her strong. Philip was telling her that brute strength isn't the answer--he's the guy who was always making himself seem less strong but here he proved that he actually was and Paige was helpless against him.

I actually always expected a Stan/Philip confrontation where Stan was tricked into underestimating Philip's potential viciousness but in the end Philip used his softness until the end. Stan never had to see that violent guy and Philip was probably happy about it. For Paige this was really important. She hadn't made herself strong by trying to be Elizabeth. (Gregory also told Elizabeth not to be with anybody who didn't appreciate her being strong--by which he probably meant Philip even though that wasn't true about him.) She made herself strong when she was herself.

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Because Philip is an interesting conundrum, for me.  Except for the fact that he, well, does it, I've never felt Philip had much attachment to actual Russia, until he started feeling bad about the consequences of the wheat ploy, and even that is partial "Why does our government not simply use their wheat like America does?"  For me, Philip simply enjoys America; or did, until he started not being able to make money and realizing that maybe he can't actually turn a profit.

The thing with Philip is it's hard to know what he feels in this area because he's never really been able to express it. He was told to fit in and he did that. Elizabeth kind of dominated that whole area. In The Deal the Israeli agent spends all night trying to draw him out and Philip claims to not even remember basic details about the place--as he says to Oleg too. But repressed feelings still exist. At the end of The Deal the Israeli agent knows he's scored a hit eventually and says about the USSR, "You miss it. You actually miss it." It's something he can't really talk about and keeps buried inside (as he said on multiple occasions, what he wants has never really been much of a factor in his lie). Even in EST he can't talk about this part of himself. So he's adaptable. There's plenty to enjoy in America--yet he still was the one who wanted to move back to Russia so they could stop spying so one could say he didn't have much attachment there either. He just wanted his family together.

However his whole final arc really was about wanting to do right for his country, finally finding a way to do some good in the world. I think it meant more to him that it was about improving the USSR, though. He did have some wistful moments thinking about the place.

I think Philip is the type of person who was always good at adapting himself to what other people needed in the moment and at an early age that talent was seen by others who encouraged it and manipulated it. He was never able to really become the person he was inside, which is why he wanted his children to do that so much and why he was drawn to EST. In the end his home was important to him and so was the Cause (that is, he still supported those values) but it was easy for him to lose sight of it and become somebody else. Like a business owner.

4 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Emily Nussbaum is the best thing going, I think, so I read her piece with great interest. But my reaction to the garage scene was different from hers. She sees Philip's monologue as basically his best performance yet, masterfully exploiting Stan's need for connection. You might say that in her view, he has weaponized sincerity. And she may be right (along with those of you who have said similar things). But I saw something else. I saw Philip being 100% real at last. Did he know that this was his best strategy? Absolutely! AND every word that came out of his mouth was his deeply felt truth.

Of course, Philip also was the one who offered the phrase "make it real." I think he's absolutely talking about real feelings he's had, but he's also making sure to turn them up to 11 and make them his total reality in this moment. When he was saying those things they were deeply felt truths. But if Elizabeth said to him, "You really think your life was shitty?" he would of course have plenty of things he loved about his life.

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

I'd say creating a human being primarily for purpose of advancing your professional goals kind of makes you an asshole, even when you see your professional goals as an Important Cause. I'd say enlisting one of your children into criminal actvity, including murder, makes you an asshole, even when you really, really, really, really, believe that your political objectives makes murder an acceptable activity. I'd say lying to your child on a daily basis about the your life makes you an asshole, even when you think it is really, really, really important to lie.

That's not usually what people mean by asshole parents, though. As was said above, tons of people have kids for similar reasons. I think Philip and Elizabeth are better than plenty of parents out there. They just also had this original sin that was potentially unforgivable. But they take responsibility for that. They're not trying to mindfuck the kids into thinking any of this is their fault.

 

14 minutes ago, shura said:

Right, but regardless of how sincerely Philip believes in what he is saying, it is simply not true that this last mission is finally, after all these years, something that is actually of consequence. To Philip's feelings maybe, but not to Stan or even to Elizabeth. Everything they did has done real damage to the US and its people. You think Philip does not realize that as he is EST-bombing Stan with his "weaponized sincerity" (love the phrase) in an effort to get Stan to let them go? Maybe, I don't know. It's hard to imagine that, when he lists "following Americans, recruiting Americans, being afraid of Americans", he forgets to include the "killing Americans" part because he sincerely doesn't remember about it at that moment. It is something that has been bothering him, how can he forget? No, he is choosing what to say and what to omit. It is manipulative.

Absolutely. Think of it, for instance, in comparison to Elizabeth's own explosion of truth last week with Paige. Paige is accusing her of honeytrapping and she's lying about it and finally she comes out with the truth. She does do that and here's why. She's defending herself and her actions. She through with caring too much about what Paige thinks to hide it--and Paige goes away a bit horrified by it.

Philip takes the opposite tack. He hears what Stan is saying to him, sees himself through Stan's eyes and focuses on all the ways Stan is absolutely right and that everything Stan is saying about himself is actually true of Philip. It's easy enough for him to make this case to himself and to Stan. He's never once putting a foot out of line and saying something that's true but that Stan wouldn't like. Philip surely, for instance, felt good about being the person in the position to *not* tell the Centre about Haig having the nuclear codes, but moments like that didn't exist for him in that moment. Neither did the many murders--including the ones he just participated in. This wasn't a confession for Philip's sake. It was all for Stan.

[tinderbox]

12 hours ago, GussieK said:

I have always been fascinated by the idea of their language training. I know quite a few people in the Brooklyn Russian diaspora (people who came in the 80s or 90s), and those who came here as teens have never lost their accents (of course, unlike P & E, they continue to speak Russian in the community). P & E would have had to work very hard to learn and internalize the American pronunciations. Matthew Rhys reverts to Welsh accent when he speaks English in real life. 

 

...and when he does his entire tone and pattern of speech is completely different from the American dialect he uses when acting.  So much so that I oftentimes strain to try to hear Philip and I rarely do.   It throws me each and every time I listen to one of his interviews.  

Edited June 2, 2018 by tinderbox

[Milburn Stone]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Of course, Philip also was the one who offered the phrase "make it real." I think he's absolutely talking about real feelings he's had, but he's also making sure to turn them up to 11 and make them his total reality in this moment. When he was saying those things they were deeply felt truths. But if Elizabeth said to him, "You really think your life was shitty?" he would of course have plenty of things he loved about his life.

I agree with that.  And yet...

[This is my last thought on the garage scene--I think. Unlike @Bannon, I make no guarantees.:)]

We all agree that Philip's motivation, while telling his truth, was to get them out of a jam. But I think he had a parallel, concurrent motivation. And that was to atone to Stan, and try to explain himself to Stan, even if it wasn't going to work. That is, if someone who could see the future had somehow told Philip "you know, this scene concludes with all three of you in custody, or at least two of you dead," and if Philip completely accepted that prediction as true, he still would have said everything he said. He needed to bare his soul to Stan, he needed Stan's forgiveness, and for Stan's sake, because he really loved Stan, he needed Stan not to be destroyed by an idea that he'd been cruelly betrayed. I believe that Philip held the thought in his head the whole time that his confession might not gain them anything, and he still knew, "this is what I need to say."

Edited June 2, 2018 by Milburn Stone

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

I think the piece that explains why Stan relents on this point is the part of Philip's monologue where he--convincingly!--makes the case to Stan that he and Stan are both patriotic soldiers. Stan knows that he himself has murdered for his cause. So Philip's murder record only strengthens the bond. Stan can't view him as "the other."

Now, that piece couldn't possibly have worked without all the other pieces of the monologue. In isolation, it would have failed ludicrously. As would every other part of the monologue, if in isolation. It was the hitting of Stan on multiple fronts, one building on the next and in exactly the right order, that did the trick. Which wasn't a trick.

Wait. So the murdering that drove Stan to murderous revenge now builds solidarity via murdering, as Phil lies about not doing any more murdering, with Stan's full knowledge of the lie? 

I know I'm in the distinct minority here. I just do not get it. It strikes me as entirely absurd. I will admit to really disliking, at the outset, the trope of the weapons drawn extended confrontational conversation, where characters yammer and belch about their feelings and motivations. There may not be any way to write such a scene in a way that I will like. The kind of scene that comes closest in Hank"s death scene in Breaking Bad, and it worked for me because the by the time the characters started having a conversation, the confrontation was over, and Hank's death a certainty. This? At the time, I almost laughed out loud a couple of times.

Now. 3 obssessed days later, irritation is my primary emotion  and I think the irritation lies in one of the larger  things that put this show, as much as I enjoyed it, in the 2nd tier of my favorite t.v. shows;  the way the full, logical, consequence of murderous violence was sometimes obscured, instead of explored. 

5 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

I agree with that.  And yet...

[This is my last thought on the garage scene--I think. Unlike @Bannon, I make no guarantees.:)]

We all agree that Philip's motivation, while telling his truth, was to get them out of a jam. But I think he had a parallel, concurrent motivation. And that was to atone to Stan, and try to explain himself to Stan, even if it wasn't going to work. That is, if someone who could see the future had somehow told Philip "you know, this scene concludes with all three of you in custody, or at least two of you dead," and if Philip completely accepted that prediction as true, he still would have said everything he said. He needed to bare his soul to Stan, he needed Stan's forgiveness, and for Stan's sake, because he really loved Stan, he needed for Stan not be destroyed by an idea that he'd been cruelly betrayed. I believe that Philip held the thought in his head the whole time that his confession might not gain them anything, and he still knew, "this is what I need to say."

Hey. I'm breaking my vows! Arrghhhh! Send help!

[EtheltoTillie]

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Hey. I'm breaking my vows! Arrghhhh! Send help!

Told ya.  But for the record, I'm going with @Milburn Stone.  I think the character can have concurrent motivations.  And anyway, it's a TV show!  I agree to suspend disbelief on this one. 

Edited June 2, 2018 by GussieK

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I know I'm in the distinct minority here. I just do not get it. It strikes me as entirely absurd

Just so you're not feeling too much in the minority, my experience of the scene was really not getting anything from it either. It didn't feel real to me like, for instance, the desert scenes in Ozymandias. Intellectually I can see what's supposed to be going on, but I really don't feel like this ending for Stan is organic at all. Part of me feels like a shoot out with them both dead would have been more believable--although I do totally buy the endings for Paige and her parents. And I can believe Stan lying to Aderholdt after the deed is done.