S04.E19: A Dark Knight: To Our Deaths and Beyond

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Gordon and Bullock try to figure out who the clever thief is behind the robberies of various bank branches in Gotham. Meanwhile, Barbara is put in danger, forcing Tabitha to recruit help.

Promo:

[Danielg342]

This was filler, through and through. The last several minutes were kind of cool...but this show has a history of ominous endings that don't deliver.

Where was the structure this show had earlier this season? I miss that show.

[WritinMan]

Not the greatest episode, but it was nice to get a break from Jerome/Jeremiah/Jo-Whatever.

Loved the expression on Jim's face when Lee said she was in a good mood after shooting Sofia in the head.

I had to laugh when Tabitha said something about them (Tabitha/Barbara/Selina) being better as team. History has shown that is not remotely true.

Alfred and Tabitha working together was pretty funny though. Alfred has a way of making other characters better.

And, in my opinion, they can kill off Barbara anytime. Her entire character arc involves her being repeatedly stupid. Gets a bit boring after awhile when ill-conceived plan #73 fails. Like all the previous plans.

[UNOSEZ]

Someone needs to have a chat with Tabitha about her self esteem or somn.. Cuz she keeps glomming herself onto ppl who are really bad for her... She was great hanging with Alfred... And she's been good with Selina... But around her brother.. Barbara.. And even Butch... She's like a lost  puppy willing to do anything to help

[Chaos Theory]

Awesome episode.  We get BOTH Jim's exes in substantial and fun stories.  

I really how they concluded Barbara's Demon Head storyline.  It could have been much much worse.  I liked how she was able to see how the fight was going to go and make choices and finally chose Tabitha over power which is what got her her new group of followers which is going to make things interesting.   

I also liked the Lee and Riddler storyline.  Riddler was right about Lee.  She doesn't love him and is using him but the Virus showed her something about herself and killing Sophia knocked it loose.  She LIKES being bad and Riddler LIKES Dark Lee.

What I really liked was that there was a good amount of both Bruce and Jim in the episode but it wasnt strictly ABOUT THEM.  Other characters had their day.  I really think the show shines when it focuses on its supporting cast like Barbara and Riddler and such.  

Really fun episode.  

Edited April 24, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[DR14]

43 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

This was filler, through and through. The last several minutes were kind of cool...but this show has a history of ominous endings that don't deliver.

Where was the structure this show had earlier this season? I miss that show.

This show really could learn to slowplay their juicy storylines.

Oswald/Ed partnership in S3 could've been dragged out much longer, as could have the Sofia/Oswald power plays earlier this season.

Bruce and Selina weren't an official couple that long either, her mother could've been a longer plotline.  Although I guess they've patched up things.

Edited April 20, 2018 by DR14

[TV Anonymous]

TIL that Nanda Parbat is part of Thailand...

[tennisgurl]

I thought that was a fun episode. Bruce and Alfred teaming up with Tabby, Selina, and Barbara was fun, even if it wasn't meant to last long. I really liked Alfred and Tabby teaming up, they were good together. 

I admit, I cracked up at some of the lines that zombie Ras through at Barbara. "Your just a night club owner with issues". "Ouch..." And then when Alfred was wondering if he could just rip his zombie head right off his shoulders. 

Dark Lee and Riddler are great together. I like this version of Dark Lee, she seems more in character than previous attempts at making her evil. I cant wait to see Harvey giving Jim shit about how many of his former girlfriends become criminals, or were criminals the whole time. 

[Kathemy]

Absolutely hopeless.

I've been ill with the flu, couldn't muster getting out the last review. And this one, Jesus unholy Christ... I don't even know how to make sense of this confusing mess anymore. I don't know what to say.

Barbara's storyline has to be the most obnoxious, insipid trash Gotham has grazed us with, and this episode they actually allowed them to infect EVERYTHING with its nonsense.

[Chaos Theory]

Ooop

Edited April 20, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Lantern7]

I think that I need a notebook to keep up with the machinations. between Oswald, Ed, and their seconds. On the bright side: Ra's is back, Barbara has an army, and fanfic writers are currently doing the second chapter of their Alfred/Tabitha stories. So funny . . . and Selina going Tom Cruise to snag the knife didn't push it over the top.

Looks like Babs grew. Also, she now has a small army of badass assassins. Yeah, that is not gonna end well. As least Tabitha's back in her corner. Dunno about Selina. . . I'm thinking she's firuging out she's the sensible one in that clique.

Like the idea that Ed can plague Riddler.

Of course, Gotham City is going up in flames. Y'know, again. Did Ra's mean in the final three episodes this season,, or is he selling next season? Of course, it looks like Jeremiah is gonna go Jokermiah next week. Seriously, the proto-Joker shit is getting old. I'm having fun, but it feels like I'm getting yanked around.

[Kathemy]

29 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Looks like Babs grew. Also, she now has a small army of badass assassins. Yeah, that is not gonna end well.

Won't end well? How can she lose? She's a Strong Independent Woman Who Believes In Herself!

[superloislane]

I can't believe that Ra's actually did want Barbara to be the next Demon's Head. It makes no sense to me - he never treated her like she was his equal so how could he think she would be perfect to take his place? And why was he messing with Bruce all that time - to get him to kill him? Why is Bruce the only one who can kill him if he wasn't supposed to be Ra's heir like he said? There were no explanations in this episode and it's bugging me so much.

I really loved it when Barbara and Tabitha were in Wayne Manor. I love when you see characters in places they've never been before interacting with other characters they rarely have scenes with. Those scenes between everyone and Alfred and Tabitha at the embassy were perfect.

Didn't Ra's say that Bruce was to become his knight in the darkness in the season 3 finale? So why is he saying he'll become a dark knight like it's new information to him? And this cataclysmic event is 'No Man's Land' right? That is supposed to take place way further into Batman's career so it's odd they want to do that now.

I'm pretty disappointed in Riddler - he really is in love with Lee? Even though I like their strange relationship, I was hoping he would betray her as that would fit with his character. I also didn't buy that he would betray Penguin so soon after Penguin saved his life and they became allies again.

I really didn't buy the women of the league choosing to follow Barbara. That makes NO SENSE. How many times did they say they follow the Demon's Head and now because Barbara did her first selfless thing ever, they turn their backs on the thing they have been loyal to for years? Yeah...don't buy it! They must be idiots.

[DR14]

29 minutes ago, superloislane said:

I can't believe that Ra's actually did want Barbara to be the next Demon's Head. It makes no sense to me - he never treated her like she was his equal so how could he think she would be perfect to take his place? And why was he messing with Bruce all that time - to get him to kill him? Why is Bruce the only one who can kill him if he wasn't supposed to be Ra's heir like he said? There were no explanations in this episode and it's bugging me so much.

This show violates its own canon whenever it sees fit, I guess.  

[Kostgard]

Anyone else suddenly feel the desire to purchase a FORD MUSTANG?

Meh. This one was a confusing mess. 

While it was nice that Barbara had something substantial to do, it made no damn sense. Ra’s plan was really to get Bruce to kill him...and that’s it? Didn’t he have all these grand plans for him? Plans that clearly didn’t come to fruition unless his plan was to turn Bruce into a douchebag? And the lady assassins who pledged their lives to someone who was basically a god and they ditch him for Barbara because...she’s a good friend? Okey-dokey.

Okay, this show just cannot do shadowy organizations well. The Court of Owls was a shitshow, and the League of Shadows is heading down the same path. The writing on this show has never been exactly tight, but this has been especially loosey-goosey.

Selina really is so much better off without the Sirens - who never treat her as an equal, anyway. Just move on, Cat. You’re much more fun hanging around Bruce and Alfred.

Speaking of moving on - Oswald, never team up with Ed again. He just comes with way too much bullshit. If he ever comes back with some great scheme, politely decline. Also, you clawed your way to the top once without money, you can do it again.

I mean, I’m glad we spent all that time establishing that they had buried the hatchet and trusted each other again only to return right back to Ed dicking Oswald over (While it’s true that Oswald was planning on just robbing them since they didn’t want to work together, I’d also note that at that point they had no deal. Ed came back with a deal, Oswald held up his end of it, Ed dicked him over and threatened him for doing exactly what he asked him to do. That’s bullshit.) At this point I’d rather they just not have anything to do with each other. We’ve already seen plenty of this stuff. Find something else for them to do. Put Oswald with Barbara or up in the blimp again. And Ed...I’m rapidly not caring about what they do with Ed (which bums me out, because he’s been a favorite). A few episodes ago with all the Jerome stuff I was checking my watch and wondering what Ed was up to, but tonight I found myself wishing I could watch whatever Jeremiah is up to.

And I think it’s largely because I just don’t care about Lee. I didn’t like dark virus Lee last season, and I don’t like this season’s Lee who gets off on being a bad girl. Her “helping” the Narrows is looking more and more selfish, and extremely short-sided. She’s just handing out money to people? That’s just going to lead to them expecting more handouts. They aren’t running out and using that money to pay for computer classes to enrich themselves (they instead chose the enriching activity of a roach-eating contest). And what happens when the funds dry up? Gotham will eventually run out of banks. Lee should be running into that whole “give a man a fish/teach a man to fish” problem. But at that point, will she even give a shit, or will she just shoot someone to give herself a thrill? Meh, at least she and Ed make a good-looking couple and they are pretty to look at. Maybe I should just turn the sound off during their scenes.

And yes, Jim, that bank has shitty lending practices and has been shitting on poor people. They still got robbed, and it’s not cool just because Lee is doing the robbing. Good to see you’re still capable of being a shitty cop.

This episode was just a frustrating mess for me.  It hopefully it was just a hiccup on the way to ramping up for the finale. I’m hoping the Jeremiah stuff is cool, because the Ra’s stuff looks like ass a this point. 

Edited April 20, 2018 by Kostgard

[Proteus]

The Barbara/Tabitha shipper in me loved all their scenes tonight. I wish they had kissed at the end before the women showed up.

[immortalfrieza]

8 hours ago, WritinMan said:

I had to laugh when Tabitha said something about them (Tabitha/Barbara/Selina) being better as team. History has shown that is not remotely true.

Especially with Selina. I think helping to steal the magical dagger is the most Selina has done with those two ever, and it's really rare that she does anything in general. Nice to see a glimpse of Catwoman with Selina here, but they really should have her split off from those two and get to cat burgling already, or at least start doing things to progress down that path.

[superloislane]

5 hours ago, Kostgard said:

Selina really is so much better off without the Sirens - who never treat her as an equal, anyway. Just move on, Cat. You’re much more fun hanging around Bruce and Alfred.

Exactly and it's not like Selina has done a lot with them either. She's now a part owner? of a club but is that what she ever even wanted? It doesn't seem like it since she's never actually there! Barbara and Tabitha treat her like a kid sister and she always appeared that way too. Besides, she clearly cares for Bruce and Alfred more, obviously trusts them more and they feed her birthday cake, drive her around in beautiful cars and help her whenever she asks. She's also way more fun with them and even acts more light-hearted with them.

Edited April 20, 2018 by superloislane

[darkestboy]

Felt like a filler episode but a good one though.

I do like that Barbara finally showed some selflessness by saving Tabitha's life but I am surprised that Ras still kept her alive though. At least she still has a following though.

It was fun seeing the Sirens and Bruce/Alfred working together. I'm hoping we do get to see Alfred/Tabitha working together again in the future.

The Ed/Leslie and Penguin/Grundy subplot was pretty decent as well. Still not feeling the former ship but not hating it either, 7/10

[Twilight Man]

8 hours ago, Kostgard said:

Anyone else suddenly feel the desire to purchase a FORD MUSTANG?

Remember all of that stuff from the previous seasons???

How about those commercials about Longmire and his truck???

(The sixth and final season is now available!!!!)

and remember those Lexus commercials on Revenge??

I mentioned back in Season 3 how television needed the auto industry all those years ago.

The reason that the "season" begins in late September is because that is when the new cars come out.

Way back when, the TV shows would constantly plug the cars

because the BIG THREE were "putting up" the money to turn a bunch of "ragtag" local TV channels

into THREE (funny how that number is the same) major coast-to-coast networks.

Obviously, the three channels belong to other companies now, but the plugging is still around.

Oh well, at least "Gotham" is not shoving COCA-COLA down our throats!!!!!!

[Kostgard]

56 minutes ago, Twilight Man said:

Remember all of that stuff from the previous seasons???

How about those commercials about Longmire and his truck???

(The sixth and final season is now available!!!!)

and remember those Lexus commercials on Revenge??

I mentioned back in Season 3 how television needed the auto industry all those years ago.

The reason that the "season" begins in late September is because that is when the new cars come out.

Way back when, the TV shows would constantly plug the cars

because the BIG THREE were "putting up" the money to turn a bunch of "ragtag" local TV channels

into THREE (funny how that number is the same) major coast-to-coast networks.

Obviously, the three channels belong to other companies now, but the plugging is still around.

Oh well, at least "Gotham" is not shoving COCA-COLA down our throats!!!!!!

Hey, I ain't mad at it - whatever keeps the lights on. I just find super-obvious product placement amusing.

[Macktor]

13 hours ago, Kostgard said:

Anyone else suddenly feel the desire to purchase a FORD MUSTANG?

Let’s see... the proto-Batmobile:

Matte black anti-reflective paint job.

V8, 560 HP. 

Silent Mode. 

Bulletproof.

And AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION????

What the hell were you thinking, Pennyworth? Not. Cool. 

Edited April 20, 2018 by Macktor

[bluvelvet]

Wasn’t that interested in the Barbara subplot. That being said I guess Tabitha will never know that’s Babs chose her death first. Agree about Selina not really being a part of the group. 

Honestly I never really cared about Lee before this but digging the Lee/Riddler thing they got going. Color me surprised that he betrayed Penguin, I guess Love does conquer all.. even psychopaths!

 

I need some Butch/Tabby in my life.. come on show. 

[Snookums]

Well, all the pieces were there, but it basically came out as the same old picture on the puzzle. This was a LONG way to go to get back to where we started: that is, Bruce tortured, R'as alive, Barbara pissed off, Tabby having no independent life, Selina torn between loyalties. Throw in the Joker Scenic Route from last week and we're basically back where we started.

It's not like anybody was phoning it in: all the little bits worked, especially Alfred and Tabby just busting out the ol' Cliche' Gold Card and unloading every distraction they could while Selina gleefully dropped from the ceiling (finally doing what she loves!) Alfred calling Tabs "Muffin" had me giggling for hours and demanding my husband call me his chippie.

Riddler, Lee, Butch and Oswald were all good too, with some refreshing one-evil-upsmanship and the charged conversation between Lee and I'mNotEdShutUP--the whole "I know you're using me but I can't stay gone" thing is fun to watch when it's performed well, and Cory Michael Smith really brings it. And while I'm side-eyeing Lee's Robin Hood routine (it's a bit rich with her whole "banks are bad" thing when she MARRIED INTO A CRIME FAMILY), her luring Ed on by using his knowledge of her not loving him is terrific. Plus, that was a FANTASTIC coat she had on to rob the bank/get arrested in. Truly, Babs would be gnashing her teeth with envy if she saw it.

Bruce and Selina also brought their doomed puppy love to a new level--they really can show how two people keep learning new things about each other but in an age appropriate way. Too bad the whole R'as Part 2 thing had to dump a wet, smelly wool blanket on it.

Because if you're going to bring the whole R'as storyline, you've got to commit to permanent consequences! Bruce spent all of this damn season weeping and being a douchebag and generally bringing the Tortured Soul thing as a result of his being forced to kill R'as, and...what, it didn't count? R'as changed his mind? His idiot followers never listen to one damn word he says so he's got to start over with them? Why put Bruce through this if it is totally meaningless/we're starting over with the entire Dark Knight thing???

And if you're going to have Erin Richards Demon Head it up, she's got to be allowed to BE THE DEMON HEAD. This entire dance-around that left her with a batch of new woman friends but no actual power was BULLSHIT. She clearly could use the power given to her, she demonstrated that during the fight. It would have been both ten times more interesting and a hundred times less insulting if R'as and his faction had been forced to flee while he was still cosplaying The Mummy and Babs controlled the Flashlight Hand and that's what's going to lead to the six hundredth "cleansing fire" Gotham meltdown. Instead she and Tabby are exactly where they started out in the first place!

Quote

Won't end well? How can she lose? She's a Strong Independent Woman Who Believes In Herself!

Except we can't actually have that! No women getting actual power or control here for more than thirty seconds at a time! Everything just resets and the only people who get to actually ascend to higher levels of interest are the men. 

[thuganomics85]

Well, Barbara sure didn't get to be the Demon's Head for very long!  Then again, it was pretty clear that her idea of just stabbing Zombie Ra's was not going to work, so I was questioning a lot of her choices in this episode.  But in the end, the power wasn't enough to pick it over Tabitha.  At least she gets the keep the army of women assassins, so it wasn't a complete bust.  Still seems like a bit of a waste though.

But, hey, Ra's is back and Alexander Siddig is back to delightfully camping it up.  I kind of get a kick out of how snarky he is with the Barbs putdowns.  And then him just being a dick and interrupting Bruce and Selina when they were about to kiss.  I guess if you've lived for thousands of years, you have to find some way to amuse yourself!

Lee and Nygma continue to be a twisted but intriguing pair.  And Nygma is in full ride or die mode now, as he's even betrayed Oswald and Butch to keep helping her save the Narrows.  I do like that "Ed" is still there and now the one that Nygma sees in the mirror.

When Jim slapped the cuffs on Lee, my dirty mind couldn't help but go "Hmm, I wonder if Ben McKenzie and Morena Baccarin are into that in real life?"

I do they find some way to work in more Alfred/Tabitha scenes, because those two together were cracking me up.

[AngelKitty]

5 hours ago, Snookums said:

Plus, that was a FANTASTIC coat she had on

I know, right? If I lived in a place where I needed a coat, I would totally have to have it.

Everybody does seem to be 

5 hours ago, Snookums said:

exactly where they started out in the first place!

 

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

But, hey, Ra's is back and Alexander Siddig is back to delightfully camping it up.

Yay!

[seacliffsal]

I really enjoyed this episode.  I always enjoy Bruce and Alfred, so throwing the Sirens into the mix was just tons of fun.  Also liked the junior batmobile.  Lee teaming up with the Riddler is very much fun-I look forward to their future antics.  Minimal Jim was also a good thing.  I know that they messed with their own backstories a bit, but I don't care as I found it really fun.

[jhlipton]

On 4/19/2018 at 6:18 PM, WritinMan said:

Alfred and Tabitha working together was pretty funny though. Alfred has a way of making other characters better.

"Just don't stab me in the back... again" was one of the best lines (and call-backs) of the night.

On 4/20/2018 at 8:55 AM, Kostgard said:

Hey, I ain't mad at it - whatever keeps the lights on. I just find super-obvious product placement amusing.

Show need product placement since DVRs slashed ad revenue.  It's better if the do it organically, but as you say, whatever keeps the lights on.

[Kathemy]

[Doux Reviews] To Our Deaths And Beyond

A horrible review of a horrible installment.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎20‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 2:18 AM, WritinMan said:

I had to laugh when Tabitha said something about them (Tabitha/Barbara/Selina) being better as team. History has shown that is not remotely true.

Actually I think they're pretty good as a team but I actually think what they all want is just this pseudo family/love triangle, they do genuinely care for one another as this ep proves. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎20‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 2:23 AM, UNOSEZ said:

Someone needs to have a chat with Tabitha about her self esteem or somn.. Cuz she keeps glomming herself onto ppl who are really bad for her... She was great hanging with Alfred... And she's been good with Selina... But around her brother.. Barbara.. And even Butch... She's like a lost  puppy willing to do anything to help

Tabby and Butch were actually pretty good together and as this ep shows Barbara does care for her. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎20‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 4:39 AM, superloislane said:

I really didn't buy the women of the league choosing to follow Barbara. That makes NO SENSE. How many times did they say they follow the Demon's Head and now because Barbara did her first selfless thing ever, they turn their backs on the thing they have been loyal to for years? Yeah...don't buy it! They must be idiots.

I always figured they've burnt their bridges and can't go back?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎20‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 6:34 AM, Kostgard said:

Anyone else suddenly feel the desire to purchase a FORD MUSTANG?

Selina really is so much better off without the Sirens - who never treat her as an equal, anyway. Just move on, Cat. You’re much more fun hanging around Bruce and Alfred.

 

Hell yeah! Especially if it comes with a free Selina on the passenger seat!

I like the Sirens together, I wish they didn't keep creating conflict between them. 

On ‎20‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 10:37 AM, Proteus said:

The Barbara/Tabitha shipper in me loved all their scenes tonight. I wish they had kissed at the end before the women showed up.

That's how I think every ep should end!

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎20‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 8:16 PM, Macktor said:

Let’s see... the proto-Batmobile:

Matte black anti-reflective paint job.

V8, 560 HP. 

Silent Mode. 

Bulletproof.

And AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION????

What the hell were you thinking, Pennyworth? Not. Cool. 

Leaves Bruce's hands free for crimefighting. 

[Joe Hellandback]

1. As Val Kilmer famously said, it's the car, chicks dig the car. 

2. Why cut Bruce's palm? Couldn't they just nick his forearm?

3. Resurrected Bashir reminds me of Skeletor and Tom Baker's version of the Master.  

4. So it wasn't Barbara in the portrait? Didn't think so. 

5. So Lee now has $100million and destroyed all the deeds to the property in the Narrows? Any point to that if Gotham will fall? 

[John Potts]

A mess of an episode. The only development that held my interest was The Riddler's story with Lee. So he's crushing on her and trying to worm his way into her affections? That's a little creepy. And Lee is just giving away the money they robbed? I thought she had plans to redevelop the Narrows?

Ra's al-Ghul - the immortal cock blocker!

On ‎20‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 6:34 AM, Kostgard said:

And yes, Jim, that bank has shitty lending practices and has been shitting on poor people. They still got robbed, and it’s not cool just because Lee is doing the robbing. Good to see you’re still capable of being a shitty cop.

I was surprised that Jim mentioned "Usury" as being one of the offences she'd been investigated for. I didn't think usury was an offence in US Law. It's illegal to use violence to extort payment (Mafia style), which it was implied the Bank had resorted to, but otherwise it seemed the bank are just "not very nice people". But the law - the thing Gordon theoretically is sworn to uphold - should apply equally to nice and shitty people!

On ‎20‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 11:05 AM, immortalfrieza said:

Nice to see a glimpse of Catwoman with Selina here

Except it is so ridiculous that she managed to get that whole rig up to the roof and dropped down from the ceiling. Wouldn't it be better to hook the dagger from the skylight rather than dropping down yourself?

On ‎20‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 2:18 AM, WritinMan said:

And, in my opinion, they can kill off Barbara anytime. Her entire character arc involves her being repeatedly stupid. Gets a bit boring after awhile when ill-conceived plan #73 fails. Like all the previous plans.

It seems that TPTB just can't find any role for her that works. She was badly written as Gordon's loving girlfriend, as The Ogre's psychopath sidekick, as front man for Ra's and now as crime boss in her own right. So at least she's consistently badly written!

[Camera One]

There were some fun stuff in this episode, with Bruce and Alfred teaming up with the Sirens.  Selena had the brains in this episode.  She was great when she ditched Barbara after finding out she had no plan.

I agree with the above comments that the Demon's Head (I did laugh at Tabitha calling it Demon's Paw by mistake) was pointless and amounted to nothing.  We didn't even know what Ra expected her to do with it.  And Ra deciding that he wanted to live after all made it seem like all his convoluted plans earlier in the season was a waste of time.  It's hard to be interested in a show when it's clearly just spinning its wheels or killing time or changing its mind or whatever this flip-flop is all about.

I still like watching Ed and Lee's scenes together but this is another constant flip-flop which is getting old.