S05.E15: Rise and Shine

[paigow]

Coulson uncovers Gen. Hale's true agenda; it could be the end of the world if S.H.I.E.L.D. doesn't help her.

[Lady Calypso]

So, I had little interest in the first 45 minutes, but the last 15 minutes were solid once we got back to everyone else.

I laughed really, really hard at Fitz's reaction to Deke. I love how disgusted and unimpressed he was about Deke being their grandson. Iain really played that moment well; I guess they really needed the light hearted moment. 

I like Daisy being pissed at Fitz still. No matter what he says, it IS different than Daisy turning on the team. And yeah, Fitz is a different person now that his mind has broke and Framework Leopold is now part of Fitz. I'm still unsure how they're going to handle this new version of Fitz now. At least May got to play semi-good cop because she understands, to an extent, what happened with Fitz to get him to this point. 

The Hydra Hale stuff was...eh. I liked seeing Adrian Pasdar again. Hopefully Talbot can be saved; I did like how genuinely heartbroken he was for having to turn on Coulson. I can't imagine how they tortured him further for six months. I also love how Talbot never thought that it was actually Daisy. He's a loyal guy. 

Coulson had some pretty solid moments. The look on Hale's face when Coulson stated how he buried Whitehall? Priceless. And now Ruby is going to try to kill Daisy, which I guess is the beginning of the end of her arc. She's surely going to have to die, right? 

[Lobsel Vith]

I have to say that I find it odd that the episode focused on people showing concern for Simmons and Fitz, but not for the person Fitz tortured in the previous episode.

Honestly, the return of Hydra wasn't all that interesting. I'm glad that Talbot wasn't one-dimensional in this episode by showing enough intelligent to know it wasn't Daisy and to presume that Coulson would try to find him (as opposed to their original meeting), but Hale and Ruby don't really interest me at this point.

[Pepper the Cat]

Don’t like doggies being killed. 

Thats all I have to say

[Jediknight]

Fitz deserved the quaking by Daisy.  He's gotta know that.

Ruby was lifelike for a couple of scenes.  So she's not a robot.

Had to laugh at Hale not believing Coulson went to the future.  Everything that's happened, and she thinks time travel is impossible.

I liked Mack defending Fitz, and the final FitzSimmons scene.

[kitlee625]

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I really liked the episode. I thought the Hydra stuff was interesting. It was interesting to see life on the inside of Hydra, even if it was like a ridiculously low budget 80s film. I mean, they're going to school in a gray bunker? How very cost effective that every set on the show looks the same.

 

I also like that we the audience / Coulson now have enough pieces to figure out the whole Destroyer of Worlds thing, but of course Hale is too narrow minded to accept any deviance to her master plan. I also laughed that she didn't believe he went to the future. I mean, sure, it's pretty out there, but any more out there than what she's dealing with?

Edited March 31, 2018 by kitlee625
typo

[AimingforYoko]

12 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I laughed really, really hard at Fitz's reaction to Deke.

"But he's the worst!"

[Froippi]

you know Daisy basically made everything she had thrown out the window when she said we need everything possible well yea if that was true you release Fitz just saying words need to be choosen more carefully I still believe Fitz can help regardless what Daisy thinks

 

sorry but I like the Hale stuff things we have not been able to see cause the team was in the future at least with the Talbot stuff

not sure how i like Simmons saying they our Invincible to Fitz

also going after Robin is bad its going to become to confusing specially after what you already saw in the Future and what Robin told you in the Future

Edited March 31, 2018 by Froippi

[Pepper the Cat]

Found it interesting that Gemma kept talking about having a daughter. You could have a son an still have a grandson.

[ohjoy]

I'm pretty sure that when Mack shared his concerns about Yoyo's dangerous newfound sense of invincibility, he was not expecting Simmons to adopt it for herself and Fitz as well.

[Chaos Theory]

The Daisy Destroyer of Worlds storyline comes full circle.  The whole chicken and the egg problem gets answered.  Daisy wasn't strong enough to "Quake" the world in the future.  It hasn't happened yet for her.    But if the project happens...it will. 

Loved the scene with Gemma and Fitz when she was letting him in on the fact that Deke is their grandson.  "It means our daughter gives birth to a "Deke"."  

Of course Hale is Hydra.  And a rather ignorant brand of Hydra at that.  

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, Pepper the Cat said:

Found it interesting that Gemma kept talking about having a daughter. You could have a son an still have a grandson.

It's because Deke told Jemma last episode that his mother talked about her parents a lot. We also know Deke's mother was highly intelligent, and we also got to see her in the episode where Deke found out about Jemma and Fitz. 

2 minutes ago, garnetarden said:

I'm pretty sure that when Mack shared his concerns about Yoyo's dangerous newfound sense of invincibility, he was not expecting Simmons to adopt it for herself and Fitz as well.

Yeah, agreed. It's why I now worry about one of the team members not named Coulson. Someone's gonna get themselves killed to change the timeline, aren't they?

[Pepper the Cat]

6 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

It's because Deke told Jemma last episode that his mother talked about her parents a lot. We also know Deke's mother was highly intelligent, and we also got to see her in the episode where Deke found out about Jemma and Fitz. 

Yeah, agreed. It's why I now worry about one of the team members not named Coulson. Someone's gonna get themselves killed to change the timeline, aren't they?

Thanks. Totally missed the mother talking about her parents reference.

[Lobsel Vith]

40 minutes ago, Froippi said:

you know Daisy basically made everything she had thrown out the window when she said we need everything possible well yea if that was true you release Fitz just saying words need to be choosen more carefully I still believe Fitz can help regardless what Daisy thinks

Considering what Fitz did to her, I don't see why Daisy would trust him. It's like trusting Ward - and we see where that got Coulson in season two, since it lead to the giant mess of season three.

[Lantern7]

Dang. No wonder Hale is a cranky cuss. If you go up the ranks of Hydra High, and your designated position involves being a brood mare? Well, that sucks on many, many levels.

Is the Confederacy tied into Infinity War? Or is this a whole other deal?

Shit, Talbot got pulled through the ringer. Was he faking brain damage in the hospital? I will say that I like Adrian Pasdar as Talbot a helluva lot more than Morgan Edge on Supergirl. And that's on Tabot's derogatory nicknames for Hydra alone. He called them "Squidbillies." As an Adult Swim addict, I found that so funny. So, of course, Talbot got broken into many pieces. Poor bastard.

And dang, Fitz is really messed up. Cute that Jemma laid the Deke bomb on him. Nothing snaps you out of drama than realizing Future Asshole is your grandson. Also: was anybody else expecting an unconscious Elena to flip off Mack and Jemma during the operation?

ETA: "How are we still fighting Nazis?" I see you, Daisy. I see you.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Lantern7

[Froippi]

5 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Considering what Fitz did to her, I don't see why Daisy would trust him. It's like trusting Ward - and we see where that got Coulson in season two, since it lead to the giant mess of season three.

Yea but going after Robin is not a good move either cause honestly this could lead to whatever happens to Polly

Edited March 31, 2018 by Froippi

[blugirlami21]

When the episode started in General Hale' s past I was sure I was going to hate it or find it boring but I loved it. I found it really fascinating what a different view of things can do for character perception. Hale was pretty badass imo and I found her placement in hydra horrifying. I think she's holding the idiot ball atm but I can see how she ended up here.

The Talbot thing was a complete surprise. I found him so much more likeable here. I also love that he had such faith in Coulson to rescue him.

I thought Coulson was great. Loved how he didn't fall for any games or tricks. I do think he could have acquitted himself a lot better with the been to the future thing.

The jury is still out on Ruby. Not sure if she's obsessed with Daisy in a good or bad way.

I may be alone in this but I agreed with everything Fitz and May said to Daisy in this episode.  None of them are perfect, all of them have done things that they regret and will regret I'm sure. I can appreciate her upset and sense of betrayal but as acting leader (Mac would be a better choice, but I digress) I need her to use every resource she has. Fitz if nothing else is a resource. Better him than Robin who she will be putting in harm's way.

Fitz's reaction to learning Deke is his grandson was comedy gold. I'm not sure about the idea that it makes Gemma and Fitz invincible. Deke existing right now doesn't mean that something they do in the future won't change that. I also wish Yoyo would actually tell them what she saw and heard in the future.

The writing for this show has been so great this season. I'm just bummed that it took so long to get here that it doesn't have the viewership it deserves.

[Lobsel Vith]

43 minutes ago, Froippi said:

Yea but going after Robin is not a good move either cause honestly this could lead to whatever happens to Polly

Robin is psychic, and Fitz is almost entirely untrustworthy and nearly killed Yo-yo, Mack, Simmons, and Daisy. I'm not sure why turning to someone who can see the future is worse than trusting a guy who is giving in to his inner Nazi.

[thuganomics85]

Man, so basically like as a Hydra trainee was basically a hybrid of being a member of Division on Nikita with the bunker training and schooling, along with going full-blown Kingsman with getting a dog and having to kill it to "pass."  Honestly, there was probably a lot more going on there that we thankfully didn't see.  I wouldn't put anything past Hydra.

Surprised how flashback heavy it was, but I enjoyed seeing the glimpses of Hydra and Hale.  The actress playing Teenage Hale was great, and it was fun seeing a Teenage Von Strucker and especially a Teenage Jasper Sitwell!  And then fucking Whitehall!  For me, he's actually on the lower end of villains for this show (which is less of a slam on him and more on how great the villains have been), but Reed Diamond was fantastic in that moment, when Hale asks if she has to go through with his plan to "give birth" to the new leader, and his face just drops, and you see the true evil there.  The only thing that made me sad was I wonder if we would have gotten a glimpse of John Garrett had Bill Paxton not passes away.  I still miss him.

Coulson handled everything about has well as can be, but I knew Hale was going to believe him about going into the future.  Don't want to know what Ruby has planned for him after seeing the number she did on my beloved Talbot!  Glad he's still alive at least, but he is not looking good.

So, the big threat the Confederacy is going on about is totally Thanos, right?  Also, it looks like the alien/Peter Mensah isn't actually Kree, so I wonder what his deal will end up being.

Definitely not surprised that Daisy wants nothing to do with Fitz and doesn't trust him.  And I really can't blame her for it either after what he did.  That said, I do think it is different from past betrayals, because he did betray her friendship and went against her personal wishes, but he did so in the believe that it would save SHIELD and the world.  Still bad and maybe unforgivable, but I think it is clear that he is still on their side.  Either way, I suspect that keeping him locked-up will end up putting them at a disadvantage and it will end with her at least having to treat him as an asset instead of a prisoner.  He still deserved that quake though.

Just when I think the show can't find some way to still bring in the humor, they have Fitz find out about Deke.  His reaction couldn't have been any more hilarious!  I so hope history is changed and both Fitz and Simmons live to raise their family.  Grandpa Fitz would so be one of those grumpy, grouchy "Back in my day/kids these days!" kind of grandpa, while Grandma Simmons will be the one that all the grandchildren love!

[Froippi]

19 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Robin is psychic, and Fitz is almost entirely untrustworthy and nearly killed Yo-yo, Mack, Simmons, and Daisy. I'm not sure why turning to someone who can see the future is worse than trusting a guy who is giving in to his inner Nazi.

Cause her timelines is all over the place you can’t force it Robin one of those people you have to have patience with and I can see Daisy getting inpatient she only cares about Coulson not saving Billions of people 

[Lobsel Vith]

1 minute ago, Froippi said:

Cause her timelines is all over the place you can’t force it Robin one of those people you have to have patience with and I can see Daisy getting inpatient she only cares about Coulson not saving Billions of people 

Daisy was willing to stay in the future because she was concerned about the entire planet - let's not throw Daisy under the bus because she doesn't trust the guy who nearly killed most of the team with his asinine actions.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Lobsel Vith

[Froippi]

4 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Daisy was willing to stay in the future because she was concerned about the entire planet - let's not throw Daisy under the bus because she doesn't trust the guy who nearly killed most of the team with his asinine actions.

i'm not but Fitz did save billion regardless how messed up it was he even asked her if she would of willing did it tonight she said no so yes it is a grey area but putting a girl at risk cause your so desperate to save Coulson not sure I agree with that and just to clarify I do not agree with Torture its just this area is so grey its hard to say for sure one way or the other

[Lobsel Vith]

Just now, Froippi said:

i'm not but Fitz did save billion regardless how messed up it was

You mean Daisy saved lives, since she was the one who actually closed the rift. The same person you're saying doesn't care about anyone.

1 minute ago, Froippi said:

he even asked her if she would of willing did it tonight she said no

Daisy told Coulson in episode ten that she was willing to see her powers restored if it meant saving people, and I can see how Daisy would say "no" to the man who brutally tortured her despite the risks she faced. I'd find it ludicrous if Daisy said anything else about a procedure that "traumatized" her.

3 minutes ago, Froippi said:

it is a grey area

It was an act of torture by someone who wasn't willing to simply speak with Daisy and has no regrets about nearly murdering most of the team or putting someone who was supposed to be a friend through literal hell.

3 minutes ago, Froippi said:

putting a girl at risk cause your so desperate to save Coulson not sure I agree with that

Considering that there's no reason to trust Fitz at this point, I don't see why turning to Robin is a bad idea. It's not like Daisy, of all people, would've forgotten what happened when Coulson previously trusted Ward not to stab the team in the back.

5 minutes ago, Froippi said:

just to clarify I do not agree with Torture its just this area is so grey its hard to say for sure one way or the other

It was torture - the picture makes that perfectly clear, as well as Fitz's dialogue from that episode about Daisy being "traumatized".

[Froippi]

5 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

You mean Daisy saved lives, since she was the one who actually closed the rift. The same person you're saying doesn't care about anyone.

Daisy told Coulson in episode ten that she was willing to see her powers restored if it meant saving people, and I can see how Daisy would say "no" to the man who brutally tortured her despite the risks she faced. I'd find it ludicrous if Daisy said anything else about a procedure that "traumatized" her.

It was an act of torture by someone who wasn't willing to simply speak with Daisy and has no regrets about nearly murdering most of the team or putting someone who was supposed to be a friend through literal hell.

Considering that there's no reason to trust Fitz at this point, I don't see why turning to Robin is a bad idea. It's not like Daisy, of all people, would've forgotten what happened when Coulson previously trusted Ward not to stab the team in the back.

It was torture - the picture makes that perfectly clear, as well as Fitz's dialogue from that episode about Daisy being "traumatized".

so basically what your saying is you rather see the Rift be let out in the world than what Fitz did

[Lobsel Vith]

Just now, Froippi said:

so basically what your saying is you rather see the Rift be let out in the world than what Fitz did

I'm the only pointing out that Fitz's presumption that speaking to a woman is impossible is simply ridiculous.

[Froippi]

15 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

I'm the only pointing out that Fitz's presumption that speaking to a woman is impossible is simply ridiculous.

well Fitz has really only been good at talking to Jemma so this is not a real suprise and Daisy and May leaving FItz locked up with those people at the base might have not been a smart move who to say mack, YoYo, or Simmons let Fitz out

 

As far as i'm concerned they have no leader at this point

Edited March 31, 2018 by Froippi

[MadyGirl1987]

3 hours ago, Pepper the Cat said:

Don’t like doggies being killed. 

Thats all I have to say

Amen to that! When I realized what they had done, even thought we never actually see any dogs harmed, I was definitely channeling Phoebe from Friends when she sees the end of Old Yeller for the first time. “What kind of sick doggie snuff film is this!” Add to that the guy telling a young HS/college age women she was chosen to be inseminated and this episode got dark and gross at points. Even so, I think the thing that really turned me off this episode was the lack of most of our main cast, other then Coulson, for the majority of the episode. One of the show’s main strengths is its cast and their interactions with each other. Take that away and you are missing a major part of what makes it work.

Edited March 31, 2018 by MadyGirl1987

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Lantern7 said:

Dang. No wonder Hale is a cranky cuss. If you go up the ranks of Hydra High, and your designated position involves being a brood mare? Well, that sucks on many, many levels.

Is the Confederacy tied into Infinity War? Or is this a whole other deal?

 

It certainly seems that way they will fit in a background story like was done with the Age Of Ultron. I guess they had time to plan as with The Winter Soldier and Age Of Ultron. It blows away my initial theory that with Asgard gone the Kree were coming, But that still could be true. 

[Froippi]

19 minutes ago, MadyGirl1987 said:

Amen to that! When I realized what they had done, even thought we never actually see any dogs harmed, I was definitely channeling Phoebe from Friends when she sees the end of Old Yeller for the first time. “What kind of sick doggie snuff film is this!” Add to that the guy telling a young HS/college age women she was chosen to be inseminated and this episode got dark and gross at points. Even so, I think the thing that really turned me off this episode was the lack of most of our main cast, other then Coulson, for the majority of the episode. One of the show’s main strengths is its cast and their interactions with each other. Take that away and you are missing a major part of what makes it work.

I get what your saying but a lot of time we get no backstory on our Villains and I like it taking that tonight interesting to see that Whitehall pull this string a long time ago 

[Maverick]

 Was I the only one getting Mork from Ork vibes when Coulson and Hale were talking to the alien?

[VCRTracking]

Talbot's back! Now that Adrian Pasdar on Supergirl, I was giving up hope we'd see him again. I just want to see Bobbi even though Adrianne Palecki is on The Orville. Poor Talbot though. Seeing him trying to deal with his injury with his family was rough. He still brings the funny though, saying he outranks Captain Crunch and calling Ruby "crossfit Tinkerbell". Also love that he's that Coulson was coming to save him. The bromance lives!

I thought the Hydra Academy stuff was interesting and frankly last episode wrecked me so I kind of appreciated the break. Seeing young Hale along with young Sitwell and young Von Strucker like some twisted version of Hogwarts. So John Garrett didn't think up the idea "kill the dog" to finally prove you can be a merciless killer". It's always been a Hydra thing. I know people are going to compare that technique to Kingsmen: The Secret Service but (spoiler alert) the guns turn out to be blank and they get to keep the dogs.

I do feel bad for Hale being not being given a rightful leadership role and being used as basically an incubator. Whitehall is still a piece of shit.

Loved Coulson not dealing with Hale's mindgames and saying he not only met Whitehall, he buried him "Go team!"

It hurts seeing Daisy and Fitz' broken friendship. Daisy is justifiably angry and probably always will be. I get that he's standing firm that it was the right thing to do to seal the rift but I wish he would at least apologize how he did it because as Lobsel said it was torture. I posted in the episode thread if he had been in his right mind and not so conflicted he would have anesthetized her so she wouldn't feel pain. Accepting that the Framework side is now a part of him is obviously more healthier than denying it but I also fear letting it take over the humane side of him really will make him "supervillain". For the moment this is a new Fitz which is going to take time to get used to. Daisy(and some viewers) will never trust or feel affection for again but right now it seems he's become someone who no longer would care. We know once he has a daughter that old kinder, gentler side of him will resurface but we won't be able to see it if the show ends this season.

I also get May being more understanding because she did also horrible things in the Framework and Mack may not have done terrible things but he did live as a different person. He also first met Fitz he had just suffered brain damage.

Fitz' reaction at the end to Deke being their grandson was hilarious! "He's the worst!"

Edited March 31, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Froippi]

Yea I think the surprise of the night was how understanding Mack was for Fitz I think that was very interesting 

[Affogato]

7 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

 

Considering that there's no reason to trust Fitz at this point, I don't see why turning to Robin is a bad idea. It's not like Daisy, of all people, would've forgotten what happened when Coulson previously trusted Ward not to stab the team in the 

 

I think the issue with Robin is that she is a child and this brings her out of a safer place into danger.

While potentially confusing the issues even more with more future talk. 

6 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

 

I thought the Hydra Academy stuff was interesting and frankly last episode wrecked me so I kind of appreciated the break. Seeing young Hale along with young Sitwell and young Von Strucker like some twisted version of Hogwarts. So John Garrett didn't think up the idea "kill the dog" to finally prove you can be a merciless killer". It's always been a Hydra thing. I know people are going to compare that technique to Kingsmen: The Secret Service but (spoiler alert) the guns turn out to be blank and they get to keep the dogs.

 

It is a historical Nazi thing. Stormtroopers were given a German Shepherd at the beginning of their training and at the end of their training had to kill it with their bare hands. 

It may have been shoot the dogs

It isn’t to prove you are a merciless killer. It is to show you will follow orders. Once you follow that order there are very few orders you won’t follow. 

Edited March 31, 2018 by Affogato

[paigow]

[Interior: SHIELD interview room - 28 years ago]

Peggy Carter: Mr. Sitwell, where did you go to high school?

Sitwell: Uhhh...California..

Peggy Carter: You need to be more specific.

Sitwell: Uhhh...Bunker Hill Academy For The Gifted

[MissLucas]

I was really concerned when Gemma handed those two tool-knives to Fitz because I expected a paradox-boom once they'd touch each other. Then I remembered this is not 12 Monkeys.

Edited March 31, 2018 by MissLucas

[shrewd.buddha]

10 hours ago, Pepper the Cat said:

Found it interesting that Gemma kept talking about having a daughter. You could have a son an still have a grandson.

Actually, Fitz and Simmons could have five sons and then a daughter in their later years (but no uncles were mentioned by Deke, so maybe not).

When the episode ended on Simmons telling Fitz "we're invincible", my first thought was : One of these two people is going to die.

But if Fitz dies, can't they just get the other one? You know, the one who is working with Hunter and Enoch? He should be jail or cold storage at this point. 
And if the other Fitz and Enoch do not exist, that is great news for AoS, because it means they are already in an alternate timeline. 
If the two knife-tools can exist in the same timeline, so can two Fitzs.

I can appreciate the effort that went into Hale's background, the way the flashbacks were staged, the repeated scenes of Ruby in the break-room as new prisoner-guests are wondering around, etc. But none of that made me especially sympathetic to the struggles of a young girl who wanted to grow up to be the best Nazi(Hydra) astronaut she could be. The first 45 minutes felt a bit filler-ish - - but again, it probably was because I was not sympathetic and not wowed by the easter eggs and  younger versions of Hydra members.

Edited March 31, 2018 by shrewd.buddha

[Chaos Theory]

The whole kill you dog thing was done with Ward too in his flash backs.    Its a stupid "I am evil trope" that really bothers some people but kinda bores me.  

Edited March 31, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[paigow]

Was Whitehall using his Nazi accent before getting killed by Coulson? But 20 years ago he had a regular American accent when visiting Hydra High...

[kitlee625]

8 hours ago, blugirlami21 said:

When the episode started in General Hale' s past I was sure I was going to hate it or find it boring but I loved it. I found it really fascinating what a different view of things can do for character perception. Hale was pretty badass imo and I found her placement in hydra horrifying. I think she's holding the idiot ball atm but I can see how she ended up here.

That's how I felt too. Obviously Hale is working for the Bad Guys, but in her own mind, she's doing what needs to be done. It was interesting to get her perspective, and what she went through in her training was pretty damn creepy. The fact that she won't listen to Coulson when he tells her that her actions will inadvertently lead to the end of the world seals the deal in my mind that this isn't going to be a "redemption of Hale" storyline, but I'm still glad to know how she got here.

 

I also saw a lot of parallels in her backstory to Coulson. I think that Hale is meant to be the anti-Coulson. Certainly there is the Coulson & Daisy, father-daughter/mentor-mentee, relationship to parallel with the Hale & Ruby relationship. Hale literally created Ruby to be a Super Hydra and the future leader, while Coulson wants Daisy to be Director of SHIELD. Also, they both devoted their lives to Hydra/SHIELD but were kind of middling level grunts in the Hydra/SHIELD bureaucracy before basically being thrust into the leadership role when SHIELD disintegrated after The Winter Soldier (Coulson) and Hydra was (almost) destroyed by SHIELD. The other thing is that she has a certain amount of hubris that Coulson sometimes has. Despite being down to minimal personnel and supplies, she is adamant that she is doing the right thing, and only she can save the world.

 

7 hours ago, Froippi said:

As far as i'm concerned they have no leader at this point

 

Yeah, that was my impression too. Everything is pretty chaotic back at SHIELD headquarters.

 

38 minutes ago, paigow said:

[Interior: SHIELD interview room - 28 years ago]

Peggy Carter: Mr. Sitwell, where did you go to high school?

Sitwell: Uhhh...California..

Peggy Carter: You need to be more specific.

Sitwell: Uhhh...Bunker Hill Academy For The Gifted

I laughed so hard when I read this.

Edited March 31, 2018 by kitlee625

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

It is a historical Nazi thing. Stormtroopers were given a German Shepherd at the beginning of their training and at the end of their training had to kill it

Is that why Hollywood Stalags only had 1 or 2 guard dogs? The dog population was being trained into extinction....

[Affogato]

34 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

The whole kill you dog thing was done with Ward too in his flash backs.    Its a stupid "I am evil trope" that really bothers some people but kinda bores me.  

Well if your current career falls through there may be a place for you in Hydra. 

[shrewd.buddha]

3 hours ago, kitlee625 said:

Obviously Hale is working for the Bad Guys, but in her own mind, she's doing what needs to be done. It was interesting to get her perspective, and what she went through in her training was pretty damn creepy.

I will give credit to Hale for this : she was correct to say that Coulson was just as indoctrinated as she was. I am sure that SHIELD has/had its own twisted tests of loyalty. And there are definitely many people who get excited about joining elite, exclusive, secrective, gung ho organizations they believe to be superior to others - and they embrace the hazing and thrive on the fact that others cannot complete the training, making their membership even more special.

Fascist  organizations tend to value blind loyalty above all else.  Morality? Not so much.. 

Edited March 31, 2018 by shrewd.buddha

[blueray]

I wasn't sure if I would like it when I realized we were getting Hale's backstory. I did find it interesting, however very disturbing. The whole kill a dog in order to graduate is disgusting and obviously that she was basically told upon graduating she will be forced to have a baby for them at some point, seems like a creepy cult. Which I suppose Hydra was (is?). I still don't like Ruby, but I was glad to hear that she refused to kill her dog, it shows that she isn't going to blindly follow orders. Also maybe it's just me but their whole relationship is like the evil version of Helen and Ashley from Sanctuary, though Helen chose to have Ashley.

 

As for the rest of the episode it kind of seemed like it was a different episode for the last ten minutes or so. It went from the hydra base with flashbacks and present day Coulson to the other characters on the base. But it never overlapped. So while it was great to see the other characters it almost seemed out of place. That being said, I don't blame Daisy for not trusting Fitz and he deserved to be thrown into the wall. I really hope we get our Fitz completely back soon (I don't like evil Fitz).  I did like the scene at the end with Fitz and Simmons.  His reaction was great and it was nice as others said to have a light hearted scene as the rest of the episode was so dark.

Edited March 31, 2018 by blueray

[Teitr Styrr]

I liked the episode, but I had a thought during it. I think everyone assumes that Daisy is the Destroyer of Worlds because add gravitonium to her quakey powers and boom, earth cracking results. However, like most TV, I think this is a big misdirect. My guess that you add gravitonium to almost anyone's power and boom, you got earth cracking results. Especially a person who was bred to have it, like Ruby. That could be a misdirect too though. Basically I don't think Daisy cracks the earth, and I'm not even sure it's Ruby that does it. Maybe it's Deke, I dunno.  That would be ironical.

[VCRTracking]

I also thought the actress playing young Hale did a great job especially in the scene where Whitehall tells her basically "Yeah, we don't need your brain, we need your uterus." The disappointment and the realization that's all she is to them.  I totally understand her frustrations years later and her older self not believing Coulson and seeing him as another man who doesn't value her opinions because she's a a woman.

3 hours ago, paigow said:

Was Whitehall using his Nazi accent before getting killed by Coulson? But 20 years ago he had a regular American accent when visiting Hydra High...

He had an American accent in the present day and a German one back in World War 2.

Man, I'm still not over Talbot in this episode. Adrian Pasdar was soooooo good.

I know people are tired of Hydra but one of my favorite things about AOS is how it explored more Hydra and all it's various incarnations and different factions and ideologies.

[Gothish520]

I found this episode fascinating. Hale and Ruby's backstory adds some nice layers to the narrative - really good stuff. AoS is so great at these one-off episodes that feel like a completely different show. @VCRTracking, "twisted version of Hogwarts", indeed, love that description! And Hale's previous comment about Hydra being "such a boys' club" with too much testosterone was really driven home.

Poor Talbot.

Coulson not buying Ruby's silent treatment act was so great. Sharp as a tack, our Phil, and nobody does snarky humor better. It's no wonder his team reveres him. 

I think Mack is a more logical successor to Phil as head of SHIELD, but I don't think he would want it.

Fitz deserved the quaking, but I am glad he threw Daisy's past misdeeds in her face. I love Daisy, but as has already been said, she went off the rails a few times. Two wrongs don't make a right, but I like that someone at least paid lip service to Daisy's less-than-perfect past. And as usual, she's going off half-cocked and not listening to May or anyone with a voice of reason.

Fitz and Simmons at the end was perfection. His reaction to Deke being his grandson was priceless. 

I love this show.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Gothish520

[mrspidey]

11 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

So John Garrett didn't think up the idea "kill the dog" to finally prove you can be a merciless killer". It's always been a Hydra thing. I know people are going to compare that technique to Kingsmen: The Secret Service but (spoiler alert) the guns turn out to be blank and they get to keep the dogs.

It's also part of the Unsullied conditioning in Game of Thrones. Or at least it is in the books. I'm don't remember whether the show ever mentioned it. 

[Lobsel Vith]

6 hours ago, Affogato said:

I think the issue with Robin is that she is a child and this brings her out of a safer place into danger.

While potentially confusing the issues even more with more future talk. 

While Fitz has a warped sense of perspective, nearly killed most of the team, and was loyal to Hydra in the Framework, so I can see Daisy hedging her bets on Robin rather than risking letting loose another Ward onto the world. The way that things have been set up, it's very reasonable to be wary of Fitz.

[Lady Calypso]

10 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

While Fitz has a warped sense of perspective, nearly killed most of the team, and was loyal to Hydra in the Framework, so I can see Daisy hedging her bets on Robin rather than risking letting loose another Ward onto the world. The way that things have been set up, it's very reasonable to be wary of Fitz.

Exactly. I like Fitz and think he can come back from this eventually, but he just performed surgery on Daisy less than two days ago. Daisy should be rightfully pissed for a lot longer than just this season. So, she's going for the lesser of two evils. She may be acting more out of emotion, but it's totally understandable. Plus, as of right now, Fitz is more of the Framework Leopold than the Fitz she's known, which means they would be trusting a Hydra agent, much like Coulson is with Hale. Maybe it's best to at least go talk to Robin and hope that she can provide some answers safely. Both choices aren't ideal, so Daisy is going for what she thinks is the safer choice. 

Don't trust the person whose mind has literally just been broken and is far from being put back together, I think. 

[Froippi]

Honestly this a very big risk one i’m Not sure I agree with we know how long it can take Robin to predict the future it can be days or weeks just saying and i’m Not saying to Trust Fitz either but if she thinks it’s going to go any faster with Robin she has another thing coming plus she does not have any patience she needs things done now and its not how things work with Robin 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Froippi