S06.E17: Brothers in Arms

[DeadZeus]

Also, Oliver trusted Diggle with the hood and Diggle didn't tell Oliver about his injury and put the team at risk at multiple locations. This is way worse than what Oliver did this season. Just like Rene ratting out Oliver this is just forgotten by everyone i guess?

[way2interested]

4 minutes ago, DeadZeus said:

Just like Rene ratting out Oliver this is just forgotten by everyone i guess?

Ha, if it was forgotten, these plots wouldn't be happening.

[tennisgurl]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

That was incredible. I meant to mention it but forgot so thank you you for this. I literally gasped and said out loud to myself, "Oh, shit. Oliver is not fucking around". . It was truly a terrifying moment from SA. Outstanding work for SA and DR throughout the episode.

Yeah, that was a great moment. For a second, you could see old, "I kill anything that could become a threat" early Oliver peaking out of more mature, mayor Oliver. If looks could kill, those two would be piles of ash on the floor. 

Have you ever seen a show when people are acting SO out of character and nonsensical, usually in some kind of conflict cooked up to create drama, and not out of any real reaction that would make sense, that even the characters themselves seem to be rebelling against the crappy writing? Like, not even they can believe the bullshit coming out of their mouths? That was this whole episode. "I dont know why I`m doing this" "buddy, this is out of character for you". Its like even John and Oliver know this is stupid, and are desperately trying to escape the madness. Or, maybe its David and Stephen, as much as they're desperately trying to sell this crap. No one understands what this fight is about, because its about nothing. They broke up Oliver and Diggle, who have one of, if not the, strongest bonds on the show, who are each others family, who have gone to hell and back for each other, for the sake of cheap drama. No wonder even the character themselves seem confused. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by tennisgurl

[DeadZeus]

Even though Oliver sounded badass in that scene. They know hes the GA, or atleast the DA does. But he doesn't fear Oliver one bit. And says he's a joke... After everything GA has done u'd think some ppl would respect and even fear him just a little bit no? :s

[Cthulhudrew]

I think the only possible explanation for Dig's personality lobotomy transplant is that this was caused by Flashpoint.

Dammit, Barry!!!!

[BkWurm1]

21 hours ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

I didn't hate this episode like I expected. I liked that they played it with even Dig not really understanding his reaction.  I was really afraid it going to sold as Oliver 100% wrong but it really wasn't. I did hate that they both went for such low blows in the fight as seems out of character.but SA and DR sold the hell out of it.

 

Didn't they though?  I mean, between Oliver and Diggle, Diggle is usually the one the audience is supposed to deem the wiser of the two.  With the newbs it was probably meant to be a "see both sides" thing (even if I saw no such thing) but with Diggle's defection, I can't see how this is supposed to be anything but the writers trying to convince the audience that Oliver is wrong and Diggle the speaker of truth.  

Now what we all have watched this year IMO doesn't back Diggle being right AT ALL but what else am I supposed to think this is supposed to mean?  I reject it but what the hell!  Where is this supposed to go?  What lesson is Oliver supposed to learn? 

Is this supposed to convince him that he shouldn't be a leader or have a team in the field?  Just an excuse to get him to quit the Mayor's office?  I won't even entertain the notion of him dropping his personal life because that would render every stepp of his journey pointless.  (Though I'm sure next week will touch on the idea)

All the options seem like a huge step backwards, but has been what some fanboys have cried for, the lone wolf thing but most of this season has stressed why the GA NEEDS a team.  So what's the way around?  Just having him work alone except for when he needs backup and then he hires either the NTA or DigUS?  (Diggle+ARGUS)  Just returning to street level punks?  Where's the end game?  Where's the payoff?  What's the point of any of this?  

[way2interested]

1 minute ago, BkWurm1 said:

Didn't they though?  I mean, between Oliver and Diggle, Diggle is usually the one the audience is supposed to deem the wiser of the two.  With the newbs it was probably meant to be a "see both sides" thing (even if I saw no such thing) but with Diggle's defection, I can't see how this is supposed to be anything but the writers trying to convince the audience that Oliver is wrong and Diggle the speaker of truth.  

But then Felicity, the other audience surrogate, yelled at both of them and by the end of it still stuck with Oliver and Diggle apologized partially and acknowledged that he realized he was acting out. From how I see it it was supposed to be a "Diggle's not in his right mind but what he says partially sticks with Oliver." As in his words will affect him next episode to get him to a writer mandatory low point, like Chase in 517.

7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

What lesson is Oliver supposed to learn? 

Seems like the repetitive "balancing" lesson of Oliver trying to be mayor, GA, team leader, husband, father, etc., along with some leadership lesson probably, since it's his ability to be a team leader and the leader of the city is being put in front as the question rather than the hero/not a hero lesson he usually learns.

All imo obviously, have to see where it goes.  

[JamieLynn832002]

15 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Didn't they though?  I mean, between Oliver and Diggle, Diggle is usually the one the audience is supposed to deem the wiser of the two.  With the newbs it was probably meant to be a "see both sides" thing (even if I saw no such thing) but with Diggle's defection, I can't see how this is supposed to be anything but the writers trying to convince the audience that Oliver is wrong and Diggle the speaker of truth

I felt like with Dig going low first and Oliver being right about the drug problem/funding Diaz that it was supposed to be more equal. Of course, this season, the show I'm watching and the show the writers seem to think I'm watching seem to exist in wildly different realities so I'm really not sure. 

[Mellowyellow]

So I keep seeing complaints about Oliver not touching Felicity and when I went to watch the entire ep I noticed that Dyla were not particularly touchy either.

I think Felicity is a very touchy feely kind of person (hate to bring it up but she touch Ray a lot too =P), Lyla isn't and I assume Diggle is not in the mood for cuddles either. 

As for Oliver, Oliver looks like he's on the verge of another meltdown. He totally looked like he didn't believe Felicity would stay with him in that end scene. Poor thing! 

I blissfully fast forwarded that d@ckhead Curtis because I want to stab him when I see him! Seriously writers Curtis has no fans! NO ONE cares about Curtis's love life! Sheesh! KILL HIM!!!!!!!

Thanks to the live thread I knew to avoid the kiss that you all had to watch! Heee! Me eyeballs are in tact! 

[Mary0360]

2 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

So I keep seeing complaints about Oliver not touching Felicity and when I went to watch the entire ep I noticed that Dyla were not particularly touchy either.

I think Felicity is a very touchy feely kind of person (hate to bring it up but she touch Ray a lot too =P), Lyla isn't and I assume Diggle is not in the mood for cuddles either. 

As for Oliver, Oliver looks like he's on the verge of another meltdown. He totally looked like he didn't believe Felicity would stay with him in that end scene. Poor thing! 

I blissfully fast forwarded that d@ckhead Curtis because I want to stab him when I see him! Seriously writers Curtis has no fans! NO ONE cares about Curtis's love life! Sheesh! KILL HIM!!!!!!!

Thanks to the live thread I knew to avoid the kiss that you all had to watch! Heee! Me eyeballs are in tact! 

Thankfully the only people I've seen on twitter bringing up the no touching in the last episodes is by some fans of a certain Arrowverse couple who seem to spend more time talking about Olicity then they do their own.  Oliver was grabbing Felicity ass like a few episodes ago and was having sexual fantasies about their honeymoon while rubbing her back a few episodes after that. We're good. 

 

Like you said, 90% of the people in Oliver's life have turned into assholes or assholes-adjacent. Boy's closing up. A couple of episodes of not a lot of touching while Oliver's in his Blue Period I don't think will last forever. Olicity will probably have another three sex scenes before a certain Arrowverse couple stop making room for the Holy Spirit. 

[tv echo]

The more I think about this episode, the more disgusted I become...

The showrunners and writers basically threw Diggle under the bus in order to further their "isolate Oliver" story arc and to do damage control on the newbies' unpopularity. Instead, they just damaged Diggle's credibility. Let's look at what he said to Oliver in 617:

Diggle: "Oliver, it's totally within your rights to keep the hood. It's yours. You're right, my frustration was never with the uniform. It was with the man underneath it."

Diggle: "I so appreciated your apology. But something about it gnawed at me. That you needed to be the Green Arrow. That it completed you. This was supposed to be about saving the city. Helping the people. Not ourselves."

Diggle: "But yet here you are. Gotten married. Raising a son. You've become the mayor."

Diggle: "So Oliver, you were never supposed to stretch yourself so thin, and in so many different directions, that the people suffer."

Diggle: "We have. With a team. Even before Curtis, Rene and Dinah, there was Roy, there was Thea. But Oliver, the way you lead alienates everyone and everything around you! Look!  Putting the team under surveillance was a mistake. We had an opportunity to save the Vigilante. You made a different call. The same with Laurel and the money."

Diggle: "Begging you to exercise restraint, caution, Oliver. But that's not you. You have changed, you have grown so much. It's been my honor, it's been my privilege to watch you. But Oliver, you're still you. And if you're just doing this for you, like you just admitted -"

Diggle: "This isn't 100% for our city, then you are not the hero that it deserves! And you never will be."

Diggle: "Promotion - this isn't about a promotion, man! This is about you - and Diaz - you still can't see it!"

Diggle: "He's already won, Oliver. He has the city wired, and it happened under your watch!"

Diggle: "I think that you leave a trail of bodies every damn place that you go! Sure you're changed. But what comfort is that to William, whose mother is dead because of the bad decisions that you made?"

Diggle: "For what it's worth. I know you've done a lot of good. I know lately it seems like everybody's been questioning your leadership, me included."

Diggle: "I can't shake that it's true. Oliver, for six years I have followed the chain of command without question, even when my heart told me there was a better way. I trusted it. I trusted you. But the inescapable truth is, is that people have lost faith in your leadership. The truth is, Oliver, you have become a better man. But with your focus split, a worse leader. The Green Arrow allows you to become the best version of yourself and I respect that. I respect you. But if I'm going to be the best version of myself, Oliver, it can't be with you."

Diggle seems to be complaining that Oliver isn't a good leader because: (1) Oliver is doing it for himself and not for the city; (2) he's spread too thin with marriage, fatherhood and being the mayor, resulting in people suffering; (3) his leadership style alienates everyone; (4) he was wrong to put the newbies under surveillance, not save the Vigilante first, and make the deal with evil Laurel for the money; (5) Diaz has already won under Oliver's watch; (6) he leaves a trail of bodies everywhere he goes; (7) William's mother is dead because of Oliver's bad decisions;, and (8) with his focus split, he's become a worse leader (though a better man).

Diggle is wrong, wrong, wrong on all counts (except maybe (3)). The reasons why he is wrong have already been discussed either upthread or elsewhere in this forum, so I won't repeat them.  I just want to make three additional points.

First, I would say that all or almost all of the losses suffered during the previous five seasons were due either to past mistakes made by Oliver when he was single, childless and not mayor (Slade Wilson -> Moira's death, Adrian Chase -> Samantha's death) or due to external forces beyond Oliver's control (Malcolm Merlyn/Undertaking -> Tommy's death, Ra's al Ghul, Damian Dahrk -> Andy's death, Laurel's death).

Second, according to Diggle's thinking, the leader of Team Arrow should devote all of his time and energies to vigilante-ing and leading.* I guess then that Diggle would be perfectly willing to lead the team, while living off his wife's earnings and being a deadbeat dad (spending barely any time with his young son and contributing nothing financially to his support). And if Oliver continues to lead the team, then I guess Diggle wants Oliver to give up being mayor and live off Felicity's income, forcing Felicity to work two jobs (one to support them, and her Overwatch job), while leaving William to the care of Raisa and Felicity (so make that three jobs for Felicity - earning income, being Overwatch, and raising William).

(* Just about every superhero in the Arrowverse has a full-time day job. Dinah is both a police lieutenant and BC. Dead Laurel was both an ADA and BC. Before she was fired, Felicity was both CEO of Palmer Tech and Overwatch. When she was on the team, Thea was both a club manager and Speedy. In other cities, Barry is both a forensic scientist for the CCPD and the Flash. Clark Kent is both a reporter and Superman. Etc.)

Finally, if Diggle thinks that Diaz has already won, then is he even going to try to fight Diaz? That defeatist attitude doesn't sound like Diggle at all.

Edited April 7, 2018 by tv echo

[tangerine95]

31 minutes ago, tv echo said:

The more I think about this episode, the more disgusted I become...

The showrunners and writers basically threw Diggle under the bus in order to further their "isolate Oliver" story arc and to do damage control on the newbies' unpopularity. Instead, they just damaged Diggle's credibility. Let's look at what he said to Oliver in 617:

Diggle: "Oliver, it's totally within your rights to keep the hood. It's yours. You're right, my frustration was never with the uniform. It was with the man underneath it."

Diggle: "I so appreciated your apology. But something about it gnawed at me. That you needed to be the Green Arrow. That it completed you. This was supposed to be about saving the city. Helping the people. Not ourselves."

Diggle: "But yet here you are. Gotten married. Raising a son. You've become the mayor."

Diggle: "So Oliver, you were never supposed to stretch yourself so thin, and in so many different directions, that the people suffer."

Diggle: "We have. With a team. Even before Curtis, Rene and Dinah, there was Roy, there was Thea. But Oliver, the way you lead alienates everyone and everything around you! Look!  Putting the team under surveillance was a mistake. We had an opportunity to save the Vigilante. You made a different call. The same with Laurel and the money."

Diggle: "Begging you to exercise restraint, caution, Oliver. But that's not you. You have changed, you have grown so much. It's been my honor, it's been my privilege to watch you. But Oliver, you're still you. And if you're just doing this for you, like you just admitted -"

Diggle: "This isn't 100% for our city, then you are not the hero that it deserves! And you never will be."

Diggle: "Promotion - this isn't about a promotion, man! This is about you - and Diaz - you still can't see it!"

Diggle: "He's already won, Oliver. He has the city wired, and it happened under your watch!"

Diggle: "I think that you leave a trail of bodies every damn place that you go! Sure you're changed. But what comfort is that to William, whose mother is dead because of the bad decisions that you made?"

Diggle: "For what it's worth. I know you've done a lot of good. I know lately it seems like everybody's been questioning your leadership, me included."

Diggle: "I can't shake that it's true. Oliver, for six years I have followed the chain of command without question, even when my heart told me there was a better way. I trusted it. I trusted you. But the inescapable truth is, is that people have lost faith in your leadership. The truth is, Oliver, you have become a better man. But with your focus split, a worse leader. The Green Arrow allows you to become the best version of yourself and I respect that. I respect you. But if I'm going to be the best version of myself, Oliver, it can't be with you."

Diggle seems to be complaining that Oliver isn't a good leader because: (1) Oliver is doing it for himself and not for the city; (2) he's spread too thin with marriage, fatherhood and being the mayor, resulting in people suffering; (3) his leadership style alienates everyone; (4) he was wrong to put the newbies under surveillance, not save the Vigilante first, and make the deal with evil Laurel for the money; (5) Diaz has already won under Oliver's watch; (6) he leaves a trail of bodies everywhere he goes; (7) William's mother is dead because of Oliver's bad decisions;, and (8) with his focus split, he's become a worse leader (though a better man).

Diggle is wrong, wrong, wrong on all counts (except maybe (3)). The reasons why he is wrong have already been discussed either upthread or elsewhere in this forum, so I won't repeat them.  I just want to make three additional points.

First, I would say that all or almost all of the losses suffered during the previous five seasons were due either to past mistakes made by Oliver when he was single, childless and not mayor (Slade Wilson -> Moira's death, Adrian Chase -> Samantha's death) or due to external forces beyond Oliver's control (Malcolm Merlyn/Undertaking -> Tommy's death, Ra's al Ghul, Damian Dahrk -> Andy's death, Laurel's death).

Second, according to Diggle's thinking, the leader of Team Arrow should devote all of his time and energies to vigilante-ing and leading.* I guess then that Diggle would be perfectly willing to lead the team, while living off his wife's earnings and being a deadbeat dad (spending barely any time with his young son and contributing nothing financially to his support). And if Oliver continues to lead the team, then I guess Diggle wants Oliver to give up being mayor and live off Felicity's income, forcing Felicity to work two jobs (one to support them, and her Overwatch job), while leaving William to the care of Raisa and Felicity (so make that three jobs for Felicity - earning income, being Overwatch, and raising William).

(* Just about every superhero in the Arrowverse has a full-time day job. Dinah is both a police lieutenant and BC. Dead Laurel was both an ADA and BC. Before she was fired, Felicity was both CEO of Palmer Tech and Overwatch. When she was on the team, Thea was both a club manager and Speedy. In other cities, Barry is both a forensic scientist for the CCPD and the Flash. Clark Kent is both a reporter and Superman. Etc.)

Finally, if Diggle thinks that Diaz has already won, then is he even going to try to fight Diaz? That defeatist attitude doesn't sound like Diggle at all.

 

I agree,everything Digg said in this episode could basically be contradicted by something he said in a previous episode.Like Digg is the man who for seasons has been telling Oliver to have a life,that he can't just be GA,has been encouraging him to both be mayor and be with Felicity.But now that's a problem?I'm not really sure what Oliver can do here to be right at this point.

And yeah it was so weird when he kinda argued he's a better GA and would be a better leader because he can be 100% devoted to the city.As though he doesn't have a wife and a son.

And saying how he can't be a best version of himself with Oliver.He literally said last season that OTA works because they make each other better.And his solution to his issues with Oliver and desire to lead himself?Go to ARGUS,the morally grey organization he hates so much that it often leads to problems with Lyla and where he won't be a leader either.

Just none of it made sense at all.They seemed to be aware that this storyline didn't hold up in logic but also still wanted it to happen so they can isolate Oliver.And their way of pulling it off was to have everyone acknowledge how ooc Digg was being and to throw any possible explanation for his behavior and hope some of it sticks with the audience.

Edited April 7, 2018 by tangerine95

[Guest]

Remember in s5 when Diggle said that himself, Oliver and Felicity made each other better and now he's like "Nah, I lied, bye!" ?

The things these writers are willing to do to make the newbies relevant...

[Chaser]

Oh the transcript of that was painful.

I want to rewatch this episode cause the performances were amazing but I also want to forget about this episode. I don't know how the writers are going to mend this relationship. When Oliver mentioned Andy, I thought Diggle deserved that burn. And that is such an awful thought but that's how awful they made Diggle this episode.

 I loved Felicity stepping in but I wish we had a conversation between Diggle and Felicity. Diggle didn't just walk away from Oliver, he walked away from OTA. I don't want a repeat of S4 with Diggle and Felicity not interacting while Oliver and Diggle were on the outs. I understand that that was more a side effect of Laurel getting Diggle, but it legitimately looked like Diggle was shutting out Felicity for being with Oliver.  Remember when Felicity went to Diggle in S1? I want that.

[BkWurm1]

Let's play the optimist and assume that after a few episodes or worse case scenario, part of next season, Diggle comes home to Team Arrow.  What they've still done is destroyed the inner circle of the OTA on Team Arrow.  Felicity and Oliver are still married and so she retains special status but her siding with Oliver will also be dismissed because they are married.  Having Diggle walk away and no longer have faith in Oliver as a leader means the newbs get to feel equal to everyone else on the team.  There was nothing they could do to elevate the newbs to OTA status but they could tear the implicit trust between OTA away. 

Of course it's bullshit because Diggle isn't one that just shuts up and meekly follows orders with no question.  He hashes things out with Oliver to work out the best plan.  When Diggle has pushed back, he doesn't back down because he's blindly following in the bunker when the plans are made, it's because he doesn't see a better solution.  Oliver would take a better solution when it's offered.  Diggle in the field, as all of them should, respects the chain of command, but it's fallacy to say that Diggle just shut up and blindly followed Oliver.  But now we are being told that that was exactly what he's been doing?  That he's been gritting his teeth and silently railing against the choices it looked to me like the whole OTA were making?  So he's been pretending the whole time?  That feels almost as big a betrayal as him leaving.     

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

Having Diggle walk away and no longer have faith in Oliver as a leader means the newbs get to feel equal to everyone else on the team. 

I think it depends on how Diggle returns, because I know he will return.  They need OTA for the end of the season.

If he comes back saying that he has faith in Oliver as a leader and the fight in this episode was his own stuff, not Oliver's, I think maybe they can fix it.

They've really messed up this show trying to make NTA happen. Even worse than they did trying to make Laurel Black Canary happen.

[kes0704]

The hoops they’re jumping through and the damage they’re doing to OTA to give the grievances of NTA legitimacy and (I’m assuming) future equal status within the team is making me dislike them even more.  I’m sure that’s not what they were going for when they dreamed up this storyline, but that’s where I am right now.

I simply can’t accept that Rene betraying Oliver to the FBI and attacking him with an axe, Dinah lying about Vigilante and Curtis choosing to hack Diggle’s chip and their actions in general are a result of Oliver being a poor leader.  

The worst part of all this is that in order to sell this line of thinking they’ve had to damage Diggle’s characterisation that they’ve spent six seasons setting up, which annoys me so much.

[tv echo]

Btw, Jefferson Pierce is Black Lightning, has a full-time day job as a high school principal, is a husband (ex?), and is a father to two daughters. Would Diggle criticize him for spreading himself too thin and splitting his focus?

Edited April 7, 2018 by tv echo

[bobbyjoe]

Knowing these writers, who keep doing the same “somebody’s butthurt at Oliver and endlessly whines and complains” story over and over and over and over and over again, I’m expecting upcoming episodes to focus on things like:

— Oliver’s third grade teacher shows up to yammer on and on about how much Oliver sucked as a third grader

— Oliver’s dentist angrily lectures him for an entire episode over his flossing decisions

— Oliver buys a dog, but it hates him, and sits in a corner growling and whining at him for forty-three minutes

[KenyaJ]

It’s comforting to know David hates this storyline as much as we do. (It’s after Emily and Stephen talking about how much Jack Moore (William) has grown this year.)

[Lantern7]

Just want to thank the local station for deciding a Yankees game was more important. I'm saying this so I can remember why my post is on the third page this week.

Is it possible that Diaz somehow injected Team Arrow with anti-Ollie serum? Seriously, everybody has had beef with him this season. If he and Diggle knock each other out, Dinah is the highest-ranking vigilante on the show. Diggle is the rock of the team, and then he and Oliver trade low blows and fists. Next week, Felicity looks to need distance. I'm not saying Oliver is always right, but it just feels easy that everything is breaking down around him. And he's not even taking on an epic Big Bad like Malcolm, Slade or Damien.

Seriously, though, Diaz is so . . . meh. We've had five main bad guys this season. Anatoly has seniority, but he doesn't pop up much. Cayden was the best one, and he got killed. Vigilante turned out to be playing double agent, and he got killed. Laurel-2 is basically playing her own agenda. And Diaz is just a guy trying to channel Al Pacino, obviously the least interesting. Almost makes a guy want Damien to come back. Even if we look back and see that this season caused more damage to Oliver, Damien had panache, hammy as it might have been.  "I missed you guys!! Also, the Legends are just a huge pain in my ass, so I had to come back."

Curtis and the cop? Meh. I am amused that Curtis has his outfit under his clothes. Now I realize that Whashisface didn't rip open the shirt to reveal the jacket, but it's still funny. And where did the T-Spheres come from?

Thinking about it, I don't think Diggle truly wanted to take out Oliver. One headlock with those biceps, and Oliver is taking an extended nap. I've seen David Ramsey up close. Those guns are for real, and they're spectactulr.

[statsgirl]

4 hours ago, tv echo said:

Btw, Jefferson Pierce is Black Lightning, has a full-time day job as a high school principal, is a husband (ex?), and is a father to two daughters. Would Diggle criticize him for spreading himself too thin and splitting his focus?

That's who I thought of too. High school principal, single father, deals with his ex-wife, and is the only vigilante in town. At least now he's training his daughter to be one s while the vigilante load is shared, he's got yet another job to do.

Something you want to say, Diggle?

[MostlyC]

#TeamDiggle

[apinknightmare]

46 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

That's who I thought of too. High school principal, single father, deals with his ex-wife, and is the only vigilante in town. At least now he's training his daughter to be one s while the vigilante load is shared, he's got yet another job to do.

Something you want to say, Diggle?

He'd probably criticize anything about anyone if he wanted their alter ego badly enough at this point. 

[Cthulhudrew]

4 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Is it possible that Diaz somehow injected Team Arrow with anti-Ollie serum?

Seriously, though, Diaz is so . . . meh.

With some of the dialogue this episode (with everyone- including Diggle) noting how out of character he was acting and not knowing why he felt that way, I was half expecting his pissiness to be written off as being due to some kind of unforeseen side-effect of either the drugs he had gotten from Diaz, or the chip in his arm (chip on his shoulder?). I was actually almost sad that it didn't turn out to be either of those, as far-fetched as they would have been.

I think part of the problem with Diaz is that, as you point out, he's really nothing more than just a thug. He has no particular agenda, no real ethos, and not even a real plan, yet somehow he's come from literally nowhere and managed to turn "the entire city" (to use a phrase from this episode) against itself and OTA. It feels unearned, and the writers haven't made any real effort to make us- the viewers- buy into it. If all of this had been initiated by Anatoly, that would suit me fine. He has been shown to have the ability and the charisma to persuade this kind of loyalty, and has goals. Even Cayden James, as much of a walking Xanatos-Gambit as that character was, had more agency than Diaz does.

[mxc90]

5 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Just want to thank the local station for deciding a Yankees game was more important. 

Yeah! It thought my DVR screwed up on Thursday.

Anyway, Arrow and Spartan were so sloppy and careless in the apartment, the girl could/should have shot them in the back and a part me wouldn't mind. 

[AudienceofOne]

I couldn't even get through this episode. I'll just glean what happened from your comments

[mxc90]

 How can Hill's decision to fire the good cops stand after she was fired?

[bijoux]

There’s more in the thread. ☹️

[DeadZeus]

TBH I'm kinda happy Oliver got all of it out of his system. Oliver has been the one that was treated poorly... Not the team members!

He was willing to forgive Rene and Rene spit in Oliver's face. After giving him a stable job and jumping off a bridge to save him. But Oliver still tried to forgive him for ratting him out and that's how Rene repayed him. Oliver ended up apologising but it wasn't enough.

He trusted Diggle with the hood, Diggle repays that trust by hiding the drug problem that put everyone at risk. And still Oliver forgave him! And now Diggle is coming at Oliver with such cheap blows. After screwing up royally this season and Oliver forgiving him. I completely understood why Oliver lost it during the argument. He'd been very respectful to everyone's screw ups this season and now his best friends comes at him with this. In my head that's the reason Oliver put all of his grievances of John on the table and kinda explodes on him by saying he funded Diaz.

I'd explode too if i was put in a similar situation.

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 hours ago, mxc90 said:

 How can Hill's decision to fire the good cops stand after she was fired?

This bugged the ever livin’ hell out of me! ??????

She and Armand were fired immediately, no 2 weeks or 4 weeks notice-but IMMEDIATELY. So she had no right or wasn’t in a position to fire anyone.

I can’t come up with anything that all of y’all have already said, except I will throw these in as well: “FUCK OFF CURTIS AND DINAH!!” And “SHUTUP DIGGLE!” The last HURT to type, but it’s true. And whoever wrote this episode must think those watching this show from Day One are a bunch of idiots. Diggle has always challenged Oliver, and NEVER “gone along silently even though he had reservations.” That’s just utter bullshit. And sorry, but the mantle and costume of Arrow BELONGS TO OLIVER. There wouldn’t have been a hood/Arrow if Oliver hadn’t returned home. What was Diggle doing before Oliver returned to save the city? It just reeks of petulant jealousy, and that’s NOT Diggle.

Really, Lyla? There aren’t other people applying to work for ARGUS, that you think your hubby working for you is just what you need????

And waa-waa-waa—cry me a fucking river that all the cops “couldn’t take it anymore” and thought being dirty cops was the only solution. I’m sick and tired that it’s too easy for the cops to turn and not FIGHT and follow the law. Unless it’s the show runners’ plan for Oliver be the ONLY one getting the criminals? Since this show is a rip-off of Batman, why not go full hog and have the head of the police be Arrow’s ally as well as the cops?

And I’m also sick and tired of “I’m dirty because “Villain” is blackmailing me and I had no choice.”???? Just embrace your willingness to be dirty. And I totally didn’t swallow that horseshit Armand was throwing about knowing Oliver was Arrow-and not even afraid? Seriously, it made me think we needed Morgan Freeman’s Lucius Fox to ask him-that he “believes Oliver Queen is a dangerous vigilante who shoots arrows into thugs and criminals and his bright idea is to tell him to his face you [think] know he’s the Arrow? Good luck!”

TEAM OLIVER HERE.

Edited April 8, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[tennisgurl]

Its ironic that in a season where they seem to be trying to convince us that Oliver is just such an asshole that everyone he knows cant stand the sight of him anymore, this is probably one of his best seasons as a character so far. He has made some bad calls, but he acknowledges his mistakes, is willing to listen to other points of view, is making some smart choices, and is prioritizing his family and civilian life, even while still being the Green Arrow. This is him in a really good place, despite what the show is telling us. If anything, everyone being such an asshole to Oliver (including his best friend!) is making me side with him even more! 

Maybe he should call Sara and see if she has time to hang out (she has a time ship after all) or maybe he can go over to Central and see if Barry (as long as no one mentions that freaking wedding) wants to grab a beer. At least neither of them are probably going to start screaming at him for no reason or some at him with an ax because he forgot to take the trash out or some crap. Sara even defended Oliver recently! That would be a nice change of pace for the poor guy. 

[AudienceofOne]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Its ironic that in a season where they seem to be trying to convince us that Oliver is just such an asshole that everyone he knows cant stand the sight of him anymore, this is probably one of his best seasons as a character so far. He has made some bad calls, but he acknowledges his mistakes, is willing to listen to other points of view, is making some smart choices, and is prioritizing his family and civilian life, even while still being the Green Arrow. This is him in a really good place, despite what the show is telling us. If anything, everyone being such an asshole to Oliver (including his best friend!) is making me side with him even more! 

From what little I saw of this episode, Oliver is f*ng awesome this season!  His character growth has been excellent. But they play this whole "everyone gets sick of oliver" tune every single season and it's really tiresome. At least I know they won't do it to Felicity this season after last season's nightmare. So that at least will stay strong.

[bobbyjoe]

Quote

 How can Hill's decision to fire the good cops stand after she was fired?

You can't fire me!  I'll fire everyone else!-- said no one in any business or job, ever.

This season the Arrow writers are really giving the Scandal writers and the Walking Dead writers a run for their money in lazy plots that make no damn sense.

[AudienceofOne]

1 hour ago, bobbyjoe said:

You can't fire me!  I'll fire everyone else!-- said no one in any business or job, ever.

This season the Arrow writers are really giving the Scandal writers and the Walking Dead writers a run for their money in lazy plots that make no damn sense.

This is from the writers that gave us the "Oliver is bankrupt" storyline and the "Felicity is not CEO anymore" storyline and the...

[TwistedandBored]

I haven't watch this show in a while. I skipped an episode and a lot of NTA/Black Siren/Lance scenes but I am finally caught up. Too bad nothing has changed. This show still tires me out. 

 

ME to the writers by the end of the episode.

[Nighteyes]

So, I haven't seen this mentioned before, but was anyone else having PTSD flashbacks to the last season of Buffy? The episode where everyone tells her she's not ft to lead them anymore, including a sociopath (albeit an amusing one), an ex-demon, a witch who almost destroyed the world, a man-boy, and the whiniest sibling in creation along with a bunch of entitled brats (I still LOOOOOAAAAAAATTTTHHHHEEEE Kennedy with the fire of a billion supernovas)? Because that"s what it was like to me. And at least in Buffy, Xander had lost his eye, and it looked a lot more insurmountable, what with an ancient supernatural evil ready to tear apart the whole world, so at least SOME of them had...not justification...for what they said, but you could see what frame of mind they were in when they said it. 

 

And yeah, someone wrote upthread that Oliver didn't look like he believed Felicity when she said that she would be there for him - he kind of raises his eyebrows and cocks his head while smiling the "Yeah you will, but I love you for saying that you won't" look. I feel like he felt, for the first few years after he got back from Lian Yu, he was still isolated and all alone, albeit now it a sea of people he knows, but they don't know him. And then he got Diggle. Then Felicity.  But everyone else he opened his heart to, or trusted? Dead or stabbed him in the back, or driven away. Tommie and his mom? Dead (with the added bonus o Moira being shady enough that he didn't trust her for a few seasons). Helena? Crazy revenge bent whack job. Isabelle Rochev?? Traitor. Reporter chick? Digging for a scoop. Slade? Traitor (or Mirakuru, but still). Sarah? Died, resurrected, and now off traveling time. Laurel? Crazy clingy Laurel? Speedy left to go off (at Oliver's own urging) to find the Orb of Thessulah. Died. So who the hell is he supposed to trust to not betray him or leave him? Even Felicity (understandably) dumped him in the past.

 

 And now, the one constant, the one person who has been there from the start. The man who was like a second brother (Tommy Merlyn was his first "brother") and a father figure (sort of) just hit him exactly where he knew Oliver would hurt the most. Oliver ALWAYS questions his decisions, never thinks that he's good enough or better than a glorified thug, and beats himself up when things go wrong. And of the two people who have worked for 6 years to convince him that he is good enough, and that he makes hard decisions because sometimes there is no better choice, for one of them to just spew vitriol at Oliver knowing exactly what he suffered, and how he aways blames himself? No. Oliver may not be broken like he was with Chase, but he's broken in the sense of being more fortified. But now against the world. Against relationships and the idea of needing people. The timing is also interesting. I know that Oliver was waiting for the right time, so it's not like John picked this time to be a dick, but it was after Thea left. Thea would be the only person (other than Felicity) who would support him and that he might listen to.  And she's conveniently gone. Freaking writers!!!

 

I hope that the n00ns eat crow and  end up actually fighting amongst themselves. Someone upthread wrote a post about how Oliver telling each and everyone of them off should go, and I agree wholeheartedly. The only addition i would have it that when John and Oliver go to therapy, John bursts out with "Oh my GOD, I am colossal idiot, and I have no idea why I said those things. We all make decisions that our significant others may not agree with, but we are supposed to discuss it, and then come to a resolution. Which you and I have done every time, except when I hid a drug addiction from you."

 

And honestly? If there isn't SOME form of apology from the n00bs at the least (a true one, not a fake, half-assed apology), as well as John (his brother/father figure), I will cut a bitch. Or just hope that Oliver goes, "OK, you know what? Fuck it. None of this, or you, are worth it. I'm leaving to an area of the world where my skills will be appreciated (Mossad?? MI5??)/joining the waverider. Only Felicity is allowed to come. "  And walk And then in 5 minutes they realize that they literally can't defend a plastic bag from the wind, have an epiphany about how they fucked things up for themselves and everyone else. 

But then, I hold grudges, so what do I know?

Edited April 9, 2018 by Nighteyes

[Featherhat]

I think technically Slade was his 2nd brother but he had to go sit on the naughty step for a few years. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

I knew I forgot to mention this one thing: I guess that Star City doesn’t know about Shriner’s or St. Jude or its equivalent? That’s where Armaaaaand could have tried to get treatment for his son. Oh wait. If the show had done that, then they wouldn’t have been able to write him being “forced” to going corrupt for reasons.

Listening to Diaz/Acevedo speak in that marble mush mouth and sonorous voice just puts me to sleep. This is the guy/actor Show thought was better than Emerson?????????

Edited April 9, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[Mary0360]

5 hours ago, Nighteyes said:

So, I haven't seen this mentioned before, but was anyone else having PTSD flashbacks to the last season of Buffy? The episode where everyone tells her she's not ft to lead them anymore, including a sociopath (albeit an amusing one), an ex-demon, a witch who almost destroyed the world, a man-boy, and the whiniest sibling in creation along with a bunch of entitled brats (I still LOOOOOAAAAAAATTTTHHHHEEEE Kennedy with the fire of a billion supernovas)? Because that"s what it was like to me. And at least in Buffy, Xander had lost his eye, and it looked a lot more insurmountable, what with an ancient supernatural evil ready to tear apart the whole world, so at least SOME of them had...not justification...for what they said, but you could see what frame of mind they were in when they said it

See by the time we got to the everyone questions Buffy part of season 7 I was pretty indifferent to her because I was soooo pissed by her gung ho attitude about killing Anya when she had kept Spike around even though he was an unapologetic killer who had attempted to rape her and she was still willing to give him a pass. 

 

And even  though I think they went about it in a immature petulant way (seriously kicking her out of her own house that she had welcomed them all into rent free!) I think it touched on Buffys tendency to make herself remote when in slayer  mode. The noobs (plus Diggle) grievances would make more sense with season 3 Oliver or season 1 Oliver but not evolved generally mature season 6 Oliver.  Not to mention that Oliver is aware of his personal failings while the noobs (plus Diggle) lack total self awareness of their own faults and Oliver's justified reasons based on their own behavior. 

[apinknightmare]

47 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I knew I forgot to mention this one thing: I guess that Star City doesn’t know about Shriner’s or St. Jude or its equivalent? That’s where Armaaaaand could have tried to get treatment for his son. Oh wait. If the show had done that, then they wouldn’t have been able to write him being “forced” to going corrupt for reasons.

I also loved that the police chief's reasoning was because she received an email with surveillance pictures of her dad, sister and niece. I know the implication was supposed to be that 3D knew who they were and would kill them if she didn't comply but I wish she'd just said that. Because the thought of her being worried that he has pictures of the 3 of them just being lazy asses at home makes me LOL.

[Mary0360]

1 hour ago, Mary0360 said:

See by the time we got to the everyone questions Buffy part of season 7 I was pretty indifferent to her because I was soooo pissed by her gung ho attitude about killing Anya when she had kept Spike around even though he was an unapologetic killer who had attempted to rape her and she was still willing to give him a pass. 

 

And even  though I think they went about it in a immature petulant way (seriously kicking her out of her own house that she had welcomed them all into rent free!) I think it touched on Buffys tendency to make herself remote when in slayer  mode. The noobs (plus Diggle) grievances would make more sense with season 3 Oliver or season 1 Oliver but not evolved generally mature season 6 Oliver.  Not to mention that Oliver is aware of his personal failings while the noobs (plus Diggle) lack total self awareness of their own faults and Oliver's justified reasons based on their own behavior. 

I thought of another reason why I was okay with the Scooby gang turning on Buffy vs the noobs turning in Oliver. I also hated the lack of sympathy Buffy showed Wood when he tried to avenge his mother and how she accepted Spike's lack of remorse and even told Wood she'd let Spike kill him if it came down to it. While I partially  understood where she was coming from it still made her come off like a pretty shitty person. 

 

Where as again I don't see that Oliver has been a shitty person even though his decision are warranted. Tracking or spying would go in the shitty behaviour pile if it wasnt well established and acceptable behavior in Team Arrow for eons with no fuss. The put trackers on each other all time but the noobs acting like it was the worst thing in the world simply because they were being spied while doing the wrong things. 

[statsgirl]

16 hours ago, bobbyjoe said:

You can't fire me!  I'll fire everyone else!-- said no one in any business or job, ever.

I  can see Diaz telling her to fire all the good cops before she leaves.

I just can't see it sticking. Even if the police association totally sucks and didn't grieve it (and the one in my city would be calling a press conference before the email was even sent)  any lawyer could make a case for unfair dismissal.

[AudienceofOne]

9 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Listening to Diaz/Acevedo speak in that marble mush mouth and sonorous voice just puts me to sleep. This is the guy/actor Show thought was better than Emerson?????????

I've never understood the cult of Acevedo. I didn't like him in Fringe (although I thought Fringe was terrible generally), I didn't like him in 3 Monkeys and I don't like him here. He plays the same characters the same way and his line delivery is annoying AS.

[tennisgurl]

What makes this whole "the team falls apart" thing especially ridiculous, is that the threat, compared to previous seasons, has hilariously low stakes. In previous seasons, Oliver and his team has battled against a domestic terrorist with an earthquake machine who wanted to destroy half the city, a crazily dangerous hacker who almost destroyed the city, a bunch of jacked up murderous super soldiers, an ancient society of assassins, and a dark magician who wanted to destroy the world, but now, they fall to pieces under pressure while fighting...some random gangster who deals drugs. The horror! How will the world survive with a few more shitty drugs on the street? Truly their greatest threat yet! But now, everyone falls apart and start lecturing Oliver about how this random asshole is running circles around him, even when we haven't actually seen that happening. It almost makes me nostalgia for season 1 Oliver. He would never have taken this kind of crap. Maybe from John, but the Newbies and Diaz would be filled with arrows several times over by now. Maybe the newbies would be alive, but they would be hurting. A lot. 

I wouldn't blame Oliver if he and Felicity relocated, after he inevitably gets ousted from his mayor job (because this is the Sucks to be Oliver season), and became awesome crime fighters elsewhere. 

Edited April 9, 2018 by tennisgurl

[Quark]

This episode was just baffling.

[Taryn74]

I know I'm behind the times (I binge watch on Netflix) and everyone has moved on and (hopefully) knows just WTF is going on by now, but my heavens this episode hurt.  I mean, it hurt.

About the only explanation I'm going accept at this point is finding out that: 1) the street drugs Diggle was using for his arm were laced with Vertigo and that's causing enhanced paranoia and/or anger/aggression; 2) the shrapnel he took from the explosion on Lian Yu was somehow tainted with Mirakuru and that's causing enhanced paranoia and/or anger/aggression; or 3) this is somehow not "our" Diggle.  I tend to FF thru a lot of the non-Arrow bits of the crossover eps since I don't watch any of the other shows, so I don't know if that last one is really all that feasible, but at this point I'm willing to believe anything that would explain why Diggle is acting this way.

My heart, it aches.

[statsgirl]

I get the impression that David Ramsey shares your confusion about Diggle's actions.

[BkWurm1]

I think we all feel your pain.  DR and SA talked about how they pushed not to make it about Diggle wanting the suit but questioning Oliver's judgment which is only slightly better since we didn't see any signs that Diggle seriously disagreed with him about anything.  They sold the hell out to the emotional conflict even if the reason behind it make zero sense.  

On 6/5/2018 at 1:17 PM, Taryn74 said:

About the only explanation I'm going accept at this point is finding out that: 1) the street drugs Diggle was using for his arm were laced with Vertigo and that's causing enhanced paranoia and/or anger/aggression; 2) the shrapnel he took from the explosion on Lian Yu was somehow tainted with Mirakuru and that's causing enhanced paranoia and/or anger/aggression; or 3) this is somehow not "our" Diggle. 

Plot induced poison.  Aka the stupid stick. I think only Felicity avoided taking too many licks this season.   I really hope the new writers are less inclined to make characters act out of character to get to plot and instead let character led plot.   

[Mary0360]

They just released season 6 on Netflix and I decided to rewatch the season. I'm up to the big Diggle Oliver fight and I literally forgot/suppressed  how much of unreasonable illogical dick Diggle was. I'm now having war flash backs. 

 

Though I'm happy to report NTAs smugness and self righteousness is easier to ignore the second time around.