S05.E14: The Devil Complex

[paigow]

Fitz and Simmons are faced with one of their greatest fears as they search for a way to seal the rift.

[Lobsel Vith]

I wonder if Fitz's actions in this episode are going to be properly addressed or simply handwaved. This season hasn't exactly held certain characters accountable when they cross the lines. I suppose we'll eventually find out whether this time will be different.

[Lady Calypso]

What....the...hell. They got me. They actually really surprised me with that Fitz revelation. 

Seriously, seeing Framework Leopold Fitz was fantastic. We didn't get to see Fitz deal with that because they had to get rid of Aida, and then we jumped right into the Space Arc. So it was nice to get a chance to see how Fitz has been dealing with it. Man, the acting Iain did in this episode was amazing. Both Fitz and Leopold were completely different people. I absolutely loved their scenes. What a twist that Framework Leopold was inside Fitz the entire time, and everyone was seeing one person. That was something I never expected. I was wondering why Fitz didn't eliminate Leopold when they first came into contact. 

I liked the touch about Simmons asking if he was sure that Leopold was his fear. A nice, subtle way of bringing the idea of Simmons being afraid of her Fitz turning into him, especially after what she saw him do in the Framework. 

Poor Daisy, though. She didn't really get to see this side of Leopold while in the Framework, so at least she's more in the know of what he had gone through, and what her Fitz still has inside of him. I WILL say Daisy getting her powers back through Fitz was far from what I expected. They really surprised me there.  Yeah, I can't blame Daisy for telling Fitz that she'd never forgive him. That was pretty despicable. He did turn himself in by the end, but my god, that was total Framework Fitz and our Fitz at the same time. There's really no handwaving Fitz's actions away after this. It's going to take some time to forgive Fitz, I think. I do like that he took full responsibility for his actions, which makes it hard to watch. Fitz has always been my favourite character but it's going to be a little hard to keep him in that spot for a while. I can understand his mind getting jumbled by the Framework, though, because I fully believe Fitz, before the Framework, wouldn't have done what he did. 

They really went all in on Deke's revelation about Fitzsimmons. His first scene was hilarious because he couldn't stop staring, and his overprotectiveness was pretty amusing. Good thing Daisy was distracted by much more important things than Deke's weirdness. I guess, now that the secret's out to the audience, they can actually hone in on Deke's similarities to Fitz and Jemma. 

Also, Deke telling Jemma about him being her grandson was super sweet. It was a very powerful moment, done well by both Elizabeth and Jeff. I'm a bit surprised he told her right then and there, but I think she needed a little hope to hold on to. It was very smart of him to do, especially after Jemma talked to Fitz. I wonder if Jemma's going to trust Fitz enough to tell him about Deke, or if she'll hold off for a bit. I wouldn't blame her if she decides to delay the reveal for a bit. 

I did like Elena and Mack's conversation about the future. Interesting for Elena to bring up that she can't die, Mack telling her that the future can be changed, followed by Elena pointing out that the loop would be broken. I like when characters actually point out the not-so-obvious to everyone. 

Interesting to see Coulson meet with General Hale. I liked the back and forth. I also like how she brought Creel and The Russian into her plan. Coulson continues down his suicide mission, but he's at least trying to also save the world before he goes. 

[Lobsel Vith]

3 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Poor Daisy, though. She didn't really get to see this side of Leopold while in the Framework, so at least she's more in the know of what he had gone through, and what her Fitz still has inside of him.

Daisy has already seen this side of him before. Fitz tortured her in the Framework.

[Jediknight]

Um, what?  It wasn't actually Leopold but Fitz?  That was a shock and a half.  Fitz just operated on Daisy against her will, and caused her immense pain.  Dude, that's not something you can come back from easily.  I was expecting a revelation that Fitz or Simmons's fear came true, and Leopold took over, but Fitz admitted it was him.

Simmons knows Deke's her grandson, and there's no doubt she's pregnant now.  Having that reveal, and her puking at the end?  She's pregnant.

[Lady Calypso]

2 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Simmons knows Deke's her grandson, and there's no doubt she's pregnant now.  Having that reveal, and her puking at the end?  She's pregnant.

If she's pregnant, then it's not with Deke's mother, or else Deke's mother had Deke at a very late age (they travelled to 2091, and Deke is in his 30s). 

4 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Daisy has already seen this side of him before. Fitz tortured her in the Framework.

I don't know how I blanked on that information. My bad; you're right. 

[AimingforYoko]

This show does love its FitzSimmons drama. Iain and Elizabeth are two of the strongest actors, but man, let them rest a bit!

[MisterGlass]

I should have known they couldn't let the Fitz-Simmons peace last.

Second the applause for Iain's acting.

That inhibitor removal was more body horror than I anticipated.

[UNOSEZ]

4 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

 

Simmons knows Deke's her grandson, and there's no doubt she's pregnant now.  Having that reveal, and her puking at the end?  She's pregnant.

Bit what does that mean for fitz-Simmons... Could this be the beginning of the end... Maybe all deke's mom knows of  her dad is the flowery stuff jemma tells her.. If Leopold keeps popping up how do they move past it.  Or maybe he could die in some way... I'm just saying the major point for deke knowing they'd be ok is his mom being born.. And if jemma is preggers.. The heavy lifting is done 

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, UNOSEZ said:

Bit what does that mean for fitz-Simmons... Could this be the beginning of the end... Maybe all deke's mom knows of  her dad is the flowery stuff jemma tells her.. If Leopold keeps popping up how do they move past it.  Or maybe he could die in some way... I'm just saying the major point for deke knowing they'd be ok is his mom being born.. And if jemma is preggers.. The heavy lifting is done 

Well, we know for sure that Jemma and Fitz make it at least a few years after the world ends, from that flashback episode with Robin (or flashforward, depending on how you look at it). So we know neither dies right away and Jemma is predicted to die before Fitz (whether that actually happens is what's unclear). But yeah, we don't know who died first and what Deke's mother told Deke was the entire truth or not. But we'll never know that, since Deke's mother is dead and can't tell her side of the story. 

[MisterGlass]

We don't know at this point if they've changed the timeline or if they are still repeating the cycle.  They need Hunter to bring young Robin back so they can start checking for future feedback.

[kitlee625]

45 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

What....the...hell. They got me. They actually really surprised me with that Fitz revelation. 

Seriously, seeing Framework Leopold Fitz was fantastic. We didn't get to see Fitz deal with that because they had to get rid of Aida, and then we jumped right into the Space Arc. So it was nice to get a chance to see how Fitz has been dealing with it. Man, the acting Iain did in this episode was amazing. Both Fitz and Leopold were completely different people. I absolutely loved their scenes. What a twist that Framework Leopold was inside Fitz the entire time, and everyone was seeing one person. That was something I never expected. I was wondering why Fitz didn't eliminate Leopold when they first came into contact. 

I always was legitimately surprised with the Fitz revelation, and impressed that the show went there. I was thinking that it was a glaring plot hole that no one had shot Framework Leopold earlier in the episode, but of course it was kind of a clue.

 

The one thing I didn't really like about the show was the uneven tone. The beginning was cute and light, but then the back half was so dark and twisty ... it felt a little unbalanced to me. 

 

Edited to add that the other thing that felt unbalanced was that the two plots (Fitz-Simmons-Daisy-Mack and Coulson-Hale-May) just didn't carry the same weight/interest. I was much more pulled into the stuff with Fitz, even though I suspect the stuff with Coulson and Hale is going to be the start of something big. That plot mostly just felt like it was setting things up for next week.

Edited March 24, 2018 by kitlee625

[SnoGirl]

Wow. I was super frustrated that we never saw more of a fallout of Fitz in the Framework, but I take it back, I take it all back. Poor Fitz. I’ve been rewatching early seasons and I really miss those days.  

So, is this the trauma of the Framework, or is this Fitz’s brain injury flaring up? Has he hit his head or is it because he’s not sleeping? Someone should hit him with an icer so he can get some sleep.

So, did closing the rift save the world? When we saw the flashback of right before the end of the world. Daisy was wearing her superhero outfit? So the end is still yet to come, right? We already have one change, I thought future Yo-Yo lost her arms bc of Kasius, not Ruby. 

I still can’t believe that happened. Poor Jemma, poor Deke, poor Mack Hammer and poor Daisy. Rough all around.

Edited March 24, 2018 by SnoGirl

[kitlee625]

1 minute ago, SnoGirl said:

 We already have one change, I thought future Yo-Yo lost her arms bc of Kasius, not Ruby. 

I'm not sure that that is a change actually. I also assumed that Kasius cut off Yo-Yo's arms, but I don't think that was ever explicitly stated. When we see her in the Lighthouse post-apocalypse, she's alive and wearing black gloves, possibly to cover up her prosthetic arms like what Coulson uses.

[Lady Calypso]

4 minutes ago, MisterGlass said:

We don't know at this point if they've changed the timeline or if they are still repeating the cycle.  They need Hunter to bring young Robin back so they can start checking for future feedback.

I think it's hard to know unless Robin comes back, but even if she does, I think we're supposed to believe that what Old Yo-Yo said was the truth; that Coulson's death was the only way to break the loop. At least, I think that was what Old Yo-Yo was getting at. 

[ohjoy]

What a roller coaster of emotions. No wonder Jemma threw up at the end.

Really I don't know what else to say. Thanks Show, for breaking everyone via Fitz's brain and Jemma's heart? Thanks Iain and Elizabeth (and Jeff), for murdering us with your amazing acting? I can't even really process whatever was going on with Coulson, May, and General Hale (who is Hydra, because the name was too obvious a gag to pass up). I'll have to watch it again, but wow -- what a brutal way of addressing some lingering Framework questions.

[Lady Calypso]

Huh. Another thing I just thought about. We saw Fitz in the post-apocalypse world and he seemed to be in a right frame of mind (if the future has stayed the same so far), but he was very irritable with kid Robin. I thought that it was just stress from the world ending, but now that we know that Fitz's mind has essentially broken, it could be that him and this Leopold had actually learned to merge. That's a scary thought, to know that in the future, Fitz could be our Fitz but also the Framework Leopold in whatever situation it calls for. Looking back, we most definitely saw glimpses of it in Robin's episode. 

Which...no thank you. I'd much rather they find a way to fix Fitz so him and Jemma can be happy. I will say, as good as this storyline is so far, I'm really tired of them throwing angst and pain at FitzSimmons every arc. 

[ohjoy]

I'm tired of it too, but for some reason these showrunners seem to like destroying even the modicum of happiness they give to some of their favorite characters. I was flashing back to late Season 5 of Angel during the Leopold reveal, and swearing in my mind that I was not going to let a Whedon put me through that kind of drama again -- already knowing that I'm stuck on this show no matter what. At this point I'm just hoping the end is not quite that bitter.

[Raja]

To the lessor subject, could the Russian be switching sides? He is looking more and more like MODOK Superior. who did at one time run a Secret Avengers. The "post credit" sequence, hail Hydra with odium.

[dwmarch]

3 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

That inhibitor removal was more body horror than I anticipated.

What made it extra nasty to me was not the cutting scenes but rather when Fitz was pulling the thing out... and just keep pulling and pulling.

I really liked the Fitz plot. I feel like he knows that his dark side has an answer but he's not willing to embrace it so instead through stress and sleep deprivation he lets it manifest as a hallucination that guides him. Doctor Leopold is nasty and brutal but he definitely gets shit done and Jemma admitted that's what they need right now.

I was surprised how emotional Deke's reveal to Jemma was. That was another great scene.

[missbonnie]

Holy shit Agents of Shield hit it out of the park tonight. Iain De Caestecker just killed it again. 

[Lantern7]

Fitz goes all Tyler Durden. Can't wait for the scene where he beats himself up and quits SHIELD with a generous severance package. Seriously, I'm betting he's gotten so little sleep in addition to feeling the need to carry everything on his shoulders. Also, he has to occasionally deal with Idiot Future Boy . . . and he doesn't even though the guy is his grandson. No wonder Leopold came charging back.

Just so I'm clear . . . Hydra is supposed to be gone, right? I mean, gone gone? I guess the writers flipped a coin, and tails was figuring out how to bring Ward back. Also, we got Snarky Morbid Coulson, so that should be fun. "These guys again?!? I need a change. Maybe terrorists running around trying to inflict off-brand cookies. Y'know, 'HAIL HYDROX!!!'" "Stop talking, Phil. For God's sake."

[Froippi]

you really can't fix Fitz whatever happen in the Framework is part of him now I think Hunter said it right you need to learn to control it 

 

Maybe its just me but if yoyo, Mack, Simmons, Deke Coulson, and May can't find a way to forgive him maybe its time Fitz walks away from the gang

Edited March 24, 2018 by Froippi

[Raja]

8 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Fitz goes all Tyler Durden. Can't wait for the scene where he beats himself up and quits SHIELD with a generous severance package. Seriously, I'm betting he's gotten so little sleep in addition to feeling the need to carry everything on his shoulders. Also, he has to occasionally deal with Idiot Future Boy . . . and he doesn't even though the guy is his grandson. No wonder Leopold came charging back.

Just so I'm clear . . . Hydra is supposed to be gone, right? I mean, gone gone? I guess the writers flipped a coin, and tails was figuring out how to bring Ward back. Also, we got Snarky Morbid Coulson, so that should be fun. "These guys again?!? I need a change. Maybe terrorists running around trying to inflict off-brand cookies. Y'know, 'HAIL HYDROX!!!'" "Stop talking, Phil. For God's sake."

Kill one head another emerges. I thought we all learned that by now. As it played General Hale was not a shout hail hydra type but more of the Ten Rings type which was linked to Hydra. Going towards a series finale there is no way Hydra is not involved, be it the Framework last year or not worshiping an Inhuman but in the intergalatic war the Inhumans were breed for this season

 

Until Daisy started with the who are you talking to they fooled me with the Leopold emergence. Using Deke's mother before was a nice set up 

Edited March 24, 2018 by Raja
you capitalize names, flowers don't get caught by the software.

[rmontro]

10 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Um, what?  It wasn't actually Leopold but Fitz?  That was a shock and a half. 

Well, Leopold actually was Fitz, so maybe not that shocking.  He was just programmed to believe  he had a different upbringing (with his father alive).

[paigow]

Daisy needs to find the dude [or his parents] that is actually the father of Deke.... and kill them to break the loop...

[blueray]

12 hours ago, kitlee625 said:

Edited to add that the other thing that felt unbalanced was that the two plots (Fitz-Simmons-Daisy-Mack and Coulson-Hale-May) just didn't carry the same weight/interest. I was much more pulled into the stuff with Fitz, even though I suspect the stuff with Coulson and Hale is going to be the start of something big. That plot mostly just felt like it was setting things up for next week.

 

I was thinking this too. Now that I've watched the episode, the Fitz stuff is way more interesting and the main plot of the episode.

 

I didn't see that twist coming. I'm glad that they brought up his injury for season 1, as it was sort of dropped before this. I do hope they help him and we keep our Fitz. It did explain why no one shot him and why he was wearing the same outfit (mostly). Poor Daisy, that was horrible what he did, but in a way it might have been necessary, as he had not found another way to close it. But at least if seems like it worked she has her powers back and isn't parallelized.

 

And the scene at the end with Simmon's and Deke was a sweet scene. I love that he confidened in her what he figured out. I think she wouldn't tell Fitz as he has way to much to deal with right now to deal with that revelation. And I don't think she's pregnant, that would make the timeline not work at all.

Edited March 24, 2018 by blueray

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, blueray said:

And the scene at the end with Simmon's and Deke was a sweet scene. I love that he confidened in her what he figured out. I think she wouldn't tell Fitz as he has way to much to deal with right now to deal with that revelation. And I don't think she's pregnant, that would make the timeline not work at all.

I had to sit and think about the timeline some more. For me, it still doesn't work if she's pregnant now, but the timeline might be closer together than I previously thought. I thought it had to be at least eight years down the line for Deke being their grandson to work out. But from 2018-2091, that's a 73 year time gap. Deke's mother could theoretically be born in the next couple of years in the timeline. If Deke is in his early to mid thirties, he would have been born in the late 2050s. If Deke's mother was at least 40 when she gave birth (on the older side, but maybe Kasius had formed technology to help with the late pregnancy before switching over to artificially-made babies), then she would have been born in 2019 or 2020. However, it's still pushing it and if Jemma's pregnant now, she still wouldn't carry the child into 2019. Plus, there's way too much going on right now for a pregnancy storyline. When would they have had time to have sex after getting back from the future, anyway? So much has been going on, I can't remember there being much of a break for everyone to have down time. I guess maybe they made time, but still. 

Also, the fact that, in Robin's episode, Jemma was trying to restore hope with Fitz by telling him that she has to believe their legacy will carry on, which doesn't sound like they had a kid at that point. And Deke's mother also didn't look like she was supposed to be in her 50s in his fear-induced anomaly. 

I think her throwing up had more to do with the stress of everything catching up to her. I won't rule out a pregnancy, but god, I hope that's not the case. They don't need a pregnancy storyline right now, especially since we already have Deke around as their grandson to remind them that there's still hope for the couple. 

[Raja]

If you go with the Robin prophecy and the Elena oral history Fitz does come back some from this Leopold takeover. But probably off screen after the finale.

I wonder that after being forced into a medical procedure by Leopold if Daisy and May will have second thoughts about saving Phil by any means necessary 

[shrewd.buddha]

12 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I will say, as good as this storyline is so far, I'm really tired of them throwing angst and pain at FitzSimmons every arc. 

... more misery for Fitz-Simmons - and marriage did not make their relationship any more secure. Surely there must be other stories for these two characters to be part of. 
You can already predict that whenever it happens, Jemma's pregnancy will have major complications. And Fitz will probably get sucked into another dimension during a diaper run.
The actors are really giving it their all, though. 

I eye-rolled when Coulson fell for yet another Trojan horse ploy. Really, Coulson? Even I thought it was a bad idea to bring the entire vehicle into the plane. Do we need  Admiral Ackbar to join the cast to constantly yell "It's a trap!"?  In the early days, Coulson's no-backing-down dialogue was enjoyable - but now, after so many fumbles, he is starting to seem out-played. 

What is going on with the dark, empty sets and limited actors in almost every scene? It is starting to look like a high school production of Our Town, only set in a dark, abandoned warehouse. There was Fitz's operation room made of plastic walls, Jemma and Deke sitting in some empty space, Daisy checking cameras in empty hallways, and on and on. Even the closing scene, with the General and the new Hydra leader (Hydra, ugh) - it felt so minimal, like an empty stage with lighting effects. 
We happened to watch Blindspot before this show. And while Blindspot has plenty of flaws, the scenery and staging are impressive. There are aerial shots, office complexes filled with working computer monitors, scenes outside and on the streets, rooms with windows where you can see the outdoors. There is actually sunlight.
AoS could use some sunlight - in every sense. 

The other thing that seemed weird to me was at the start, when the Spaceman monster attacked Jemma and Fitz, the Spaceman appeared to have stabbed some red-shirt assistant in the chest. Then Jemma shot the monster and it evaporated. Fine. But what about the red-shirt guy? Was he dead? Jemma and the others (the only ones who matter?) didn't even act as if he had existed or needed to be checked on. There are way too many of these type scenes on AoS. 

Edited March 24, 2018 by shrewd.buddha

[Froippi]

20 minutes ago, shrewd.buddha said:

... more misery for Fitz-Simmons - and marriage did not make their relationship any more secure. Surely there must be other stories for these two characters to be part of. 
You can already predict that whenever it happens, Jemma's pregnancy will have major complications. And Fitz will probably get sucked into another dimension during a diaper run.
The actors are really giving it their all, though. 

I eye-rolled when Coulson fell for yet another Trojan horse ploy. Really, Coulson? Even I thought it was a bad idea to bring the entire vehicle into the plane. Do we need  Admiral Ackbar to join the cast to constantly yell "It's a trap!"?  In the early days, Coulson's no-backing-down dialogue was enjoyable - but now, after so many fumbles, he is starting to seem out-played. 

What is going on with the dark, empty sets and limited actors in almost every scene? It is starting to look like a high school production of Our Town, only set in a dark, abandoned warehouse. There was Fitz's operation room made of plastic walls, Jemma and Deke sitting in some empty space, Daisy checking cameras in empty hallways, and on and on. Even the closing scene, with the General and the new Hydra leader (Hydra, ugh) - it felt so minimal, like an empty stage with lighting effects. 
We happened to watch Blindspot before this show. And while Blindspot has plenty of flaws, the scenery and staging are impressive. There are aerial shots, office complexes filled with working computer monitors, scenes outside and on the streets, rooms with windows where you can see the outdoors. There is actually sunlight.
AoS could use some sunlight - in every sense. 

The other thing that seemed weird to me was at the start, when the Spaceman monster attacked Jemma and Fitz, the Spaceman appeared to have stabbed some red-shirt assistant in the chest. Then Jemma shot the monster and it evaporated. Fine. But what about the red-shirt guy? Was he dead? Jemma and the others (the only ones who matter?) didn't even act as if he had existed or needed to be checked on. There are way too many of these type scenes on AoS. 

This is what happens when your budget gets cut though not a really a surprise so you have to tell your story in other ways

[tennisgurl]

You can tell the show has caught on to the fact that Ian and Elizabeth are their strongest actors (I mean, everyone is good, but they just sell angst like no one else) so they keep giving them these ridiculously angst filled tragic stories, even after getting married. Don’t get me wrong, it’s great drama, but God dang can’t they at least have a damn honeymoon?!? 

[romantic idiot]

What if Deke is their great grandson?

[VCRTracking]

Well, my heart shattered into a million pieces after watching that.

Y'know even when this show started to get really good I thought "Well,  it won't really reach the levels of greatness Buffy and Angel did." I was wrong.

Ian knocked it out of the park and Elizabeth too.

I'm glad though we're finally getting after effects of not just what happened in the Framework but the brain damage Fitz got seasons ago. Of course he's not fine!

What really hurt is Fitz's friendship with Daisy and Mac being damaged possibly permanently. Other shows recently where friendships seem to have been destroyed have I want to believe in these cases they can be repaired and things can be forgiven but it's going to take time and this is probably the final season.

The final scene with Deke and Jemma.....man. If people wanted to know Deke's purpose it was to bring hope.

Edited March 24, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Lady Calypso]

54 minutes ago, romantic idiot said:

What if Deke is their great grandson?

I briefly thought about that, but Deke made it clear that his mother was talking about her parents. Plus, the timeline would actually be a few years too short if Deke was their great grandson (he'd still need to be born by the late 2050s so Jemma would need to have her daughter in the next year, and that daughter would need to have her daughter as a teen, who would need to have Deke as a teen). 

Again, the timeline MIGHT be able to work if Jemma was already pregnant, but that would require Deke's mother to have Deke in her 40s. Unless Deke's supposed to be older than the actor is, but I get the impression that he is supposed to be in his early thirties. It's just pushing it for Deke's mom to be born in early 2019 and Deke to be born around 2059. I guess, if Deke was about 33, it could work. 

18 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

What really hurt is Fitz's friendship with Daisy and Mac being damaged possibly permanently. Other shows where friendships are destroyed have I want to believe in these cases they can be repaired and things can be forgiven but it's going to take time and this might be the final season.

That's the issue I have with giving Fitz this impossible conflict. If this is the final season (and I really hope it isn't), that means they'd either need to fix the Fitz situation in the next episodes, making characters forgive him in such little time, or they'd need to leave the relationships damaged by the series finale. I'm not sure whether the showrunners are planning to actually conclude the finale as if it's a series finale, but if they are, then they could do a time jump. But if not, then they can't have a flashforward of Daisy forgiving Fitz. It's kind of a lose-lose here. I think Fitz can be redeemed and that Daisy can forgive him; I just don't think it can be in these last eight episodes. I don't mind her being pissed at him for a while, because he doesn't deserve her forgiveness right now, even if/when they do save the world. 

Now, the logical thing they'd probably do is to have Daisy not fully forgive him, but make steps toward being ok with him. I just don't expect it to be them going back to friends right away. I'm just unsure with how they'll handle this. I think Fitz being completely self aware just in time and then still going through with it is what's going to hurt their friendship the most. I think Daisy will be able to see that a lot of his choices were due to his brain trauma and the Framework, but he can also not be excused for his actions. Much like Deke can't be excused for his actions in his present day timeline, though we can make logical explanations as to why these characters have done what they've done. But, their actions are not irredeemable like many of the villains we've encountered on this show. Hopefully they don't cross an even further line. I don't think they could do that with Fitz, but they've already crossed a line where I'm even finding it hard to accept his choices right now. 

This is why there needs to be one more season, even if it's a shortened final season. I think Fitz can be redeemed in a sixth season, but not by the end of this fifth one. I'm still going to reserve judgement, though, because this show tends to surprise me. 

[VCRTracking]

43 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I briefly thought about that, but Deke made it clear that his mother was talking about her parents. Plus, the timeline would actually be a few years too short if Deke was their great grandson (he'd still need to be born by the late 2050s so Jemma would need to have her daughter in the next year, and that daughter would need to have her daughter as a teen, who would need to have Deke as a teen). 

Again, the timeline MIGHT be able to work if Jemma was already pregnant, but that would require Deke's mother to have Deke in her 40s. Unless Deke's supposed to be older than the actor is, but I get the impression that he is supposed to be in his early thirties. It's just pushing it for Deke's mom to be born in early 2019 and Deke to be born around 2059. I guess, if Deke was about 33, it could work. 

That's the issue I have with giving Fitz this impossible conflict. If this is the final season (and I really hope it isn't), that means they'd either need to fix the Fitz situation in the next episodes, making characters forgive him in such little time, or they'd need to leave the relationships damaged by the series finale. I'm not sure whether the showrunners are planning to actually conclude the finale as if it's a series finale, but if they are, then they could do a time jump. But if not, then they can't have a flashforward of Daisy forgiving Fitz. It's kind of a lose-lose here. I think Fitz can be redeemed and that Daisy can forgive him; I just don't think it can be in these last eight episodes. I don't mind her being pissed at him for a while, because he doesn't deserve her forgiveness right now, even if/when they do save the world. 

Now, the logical thing they'd probably do is to have Daisy not fully forgive him, but make steps toward being ok with him. I just don't expect it to be them going back to friends right away. I'm just unsure with how they'll handle this. I think Fitz being completely self aware just in time and then still going through with it is what's going to hurt their friendship the most. I think Daisy will be able to see that a lot of his choices were due to his brain trauma and the Framework, but he can also not be excused for his actions. Much like Deke can't be excused for his actions in his present day timeline, though we can make logical explanations as to why these characters have done what they've done. But, their actions are not irredeemable like many of the villains we've encountered on this show. Hopefully they don't cross an even further line. I don't think they could do that with Fitz, but they've already crossed a line where I'm even finding it hard to accept his choices right now. 

This is why there needs to be one more season, even if it's a shortened final season. I think Fitz can be redeemed in a sixth season, but not by the end of this fifth one. I'm still going to reserve judgement, though, because this show tends to surprise me. 

I'm hoping for a time jump epilogue too. I can see in the finale Fitz somehow  saving Coulson or her powers being the one to save the world so Daisy can get to the point of being in the same room with him not wanting to kill him.

Someone on Reddit:

"I think the final line was when Jemma got attacked and almost killed by that fear dimension being. His dark personality clicked and he succumbed."

Edited March 24, 2018 by VCRTracking

[blueray]

I think that some of what caused Fitz's "break" was the lack of sleep, constant stress from life/work. And then his PTSD of what happened in the framework and never fully recovering from his injury. I think that they will forgive him, however Daisy is going to take the longest. Simmon's did basically understood what happened right away and will forgive and try to help him. Mack and YoYo might understand that he wasn't exactly in control of his actions when he had something attack them. He however, did decide to finish operating on Daisy without her consent, when he was Fitz again. I think she will need time to fully trust him again :(.

[Quark]

Wow, what a superb episode.

[Froippi]

35 minutes ago, blueray said:

I think that some of what caused Fitz's "break" was the lack of sleep, constant stress from life/work. And then his PTSD of what happened in the framework and never fully recovering from his injury. I think that they will forgive him, however Daisy is going to take the longest. Simmon's did basically understood what happened right away and will forgive and try to help him. Mack and YoYo might understand that he wasn't exactly in control of his actions when he had something attack them. He however, did decide to finish operating on Daisy without her consent, when he was Fitz again. I think she will need time to fully trust him again :(.

that is the problem though he doesn't want forgiveness and he almost make it sound like he doesn't deserve Jemma either and also he said a lot more in his wedding vows than what was said like he was screaming for help without saying it

Edited March 24, 2018 by Froippi

[Aeryn13]

Flashing back to that wonderful scene where Fitz was the first one to find out about Daisy`s powers, was supportive and told her she was not a monster, just different because he could relate to being different after his injury, it is so painful now that this same injury caused a psychotic break, with Leopold emerging and now Daisy has been so traumatized by him.

Fitz and Simmons slayed me. As did the final scene with Jemma and Deke. Speaking of, when Fitz was having his breakdown, watching Deke`s face in response was also heartbreaking, especially in light of what he told Jemma later about his mother`s adoration for her father. He looked so horrified. 

The plotline with Hale seemed like a real drag in comparism. And Hydra again? Seriously? 

[djinn]

The Fitz reveal was simply superb!! It also completely caught me by surprise, because I hadn't seen the "Leopold" side in Fitz' personality in any of the timeline episodes in the future. But what if an actual integration of the sweet, gentle side of Fitz merged with the cold ruthlessness of Leopold, is what it takes to change the future just a tad, so that the bleak future doesn't happen? I know what future Yo-Yo had predicted, but how would she know the truth about what was really needed?

I found the Coulson-Hale plot pretty chilling, but then the end-reveal of "Hydra" made it just too repetitive. There's no escaping from Hydra, in any season, it seems.

[Raja]

As a possible finale S.H.I.E.L.D could have no enemy other than Hydra.

[kitlee625]

6 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

I eye-rolled when Coulson fell for yet another Trojan horse ploy. Really, Coulson? Even I thought it was a bad idea to bring the entire vehicle into the plane. Do we need  Admiral Ackbar to join the cast to constantly yell "It's a trap!"?  In the early days, Coulson's no-backing-down dialogue was enjoyable - but now, after so many fumbles, he is starting to seem out-played. 

I felt the same way. At this point, the idea of Coulson as this great leader and spy just doesn't work for me. The writers need to figure out a new plot device aside from "Coulson is outsmarted by the baddies" because it happens in every season.

[Lobsel Vith]

5 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

What really hurt is Fitz's friendship with Daisy and Mac being damaged possibly permanently. Other shows recently where friendships seem to have been destroyed have I want to believe in these cases they can be repaired and things can be forgiven but it's going to take time and this is probably the final season.

They may just pull a Deke and have Mack & Daisy not address it at a certain point. Maybe they'll only be angry for an episode or two. That's the problem with having characters cross lines, and then not addressing it properly in the context of the story.

[AKA...CJ86]

I think it was somewhat obvious Fitz was going to be behind the mayhem in some way.  

Am I the only one thinking nobody noticed a missing whoever that the Monster Spaceman killed in the beginning?  Or did I miss it?  It was to misdirect The Doctor as one those nightmare dimension specters/apparations or what have you, but nobody could stumble upon the body, or be like... where's so and so with my notes/samples?

Loved the ending with Jemma and Deke... so... she puked.  Was it at the revelation that she and Deke are related, or that she and the man Fitz is becoming reproduced, or all of the above?

It wouldn't be SHIELD without HYRDA would it?  In some ways I'm so bored with it, in others it just feels so right and I wouldn't have it any other way.  Although it seems to be dragging on a bit...

Was I the only one thinking about Pokemon with the ball device opening... closing... whatever it did... to the nightmare dimension?  

[MisterGlass]

20 hours ago, Raja said:

 The "post credit" sequence, hail Hydra with odium.

Presumably that was Kasius's father?  It was dark but it didn't look like Kasius or his brother.

14 minutes ago, CyberJawa1986 said:

Am I the only one thinking nobody noticed a missing whoever that the Monster Spaceman killed in the beginning?  Or did I miss it

No, I also thought they were oddly silent about Agent Redshirt.

[Teitr Styrr]

Wow, has this show been firing on all cylinders. I've enjoyed the whole season, but the Fitz centric ones have been outstanding.

It seemed weird having the Kree say Hail Hydra. I thought that must have been Kasius' father too, but then he said Hail Hydra, and I didn't know what to think.

[Raja]

1 hour ago, CyberJawa1986 said:

I think it was somewhat obvious Fitz was going to be behind the mayhem in some way.  

Am I the only one thinking nobody noticed a missing whoever that the Monster Spaceman killed in the beginning?  Or did I miss it?  It was to misdirect The Doctor as one those nightmare dimension specters/apparations or what have you, but nobody could stumble upon the body, or be like... where's so and so with my notes/samples?

Loved the ending with Jemma and Deke... so... she puked.  Was it at the revelation that she and Deke are related, or that she and the man Fitz is becoming reproduced, or all of the above?

It wouldn't be SHIELD without HYRDA would it?  In some ways I'm so bored with it, in others it just feels so right and I wouldn't have it any other way.  Although it seems to be dragging on a bit...

Was I the only one thinking about Pokemon with the ball device opening... closing... whatever it did... to the nightmare dimension?  

And we just got Agent Redshirt back. I guess only Piper with her duo role on Supergirl, and Davis being the real life husband of Jaiying/Dichen Lachman have the "we care about you" privileges story wise. It was weird with fear astronaut that the first shots didn't dust him. Before the Leopold reveal I thought we were getting enhanced fear monsters from the rift.

[VCRTracking]

5 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

They may just pull a Deke and have Mack & Daisy not address it at a certain point. Maybe they'll only be angry for an episode or two. That's the problem with having characters cross lines, and then not addressing it properly in the context of the story.

I really want to watch the version of the show you're watching where the team have apparently kept Deke around just because they like him and think he's a swell guy.

[teenj12]

Wow, no words for what Fitz did. I just wish we got more focus on Daisy's thought process after it happened, but her expressions said everything we needed to know about the trauma that was just inflicted on her. The show's been hinting for a long time about Fitz's dark side (even before the Framework), so can I just say I'm really not surprised? Just the grittiness of him yanking the device out of Daisy's brain while she's tied up and helpless was... disturbing.