S06.E01: Dead Hand

[Umbelina]

Quote

11 minutes ago, Pink-n-Green said:

 

Those of you who think Stan's girlfriend is an illegal; do you think the knows who Phillip and Elizabeth really are?

5 minutes ago, skippylou said:

No.  If she knows why never let P&E know?  Obvious answer she would have been instructed not to.  Then what would the purpose be?  It would only jeopardize P&E if she is ever caught.  Likewise telling P&E would only jeopardize Stan's GF (I forget her name) if they are ever caught.  Mutual ignorance seems to be the safest strategy.

She might.  IF she's there to protect Elizabeth (at one time Philip too) from Stan possibly buying a vowel, then yes.  BUT, I just don't think that's why she's there.  Now, if it was just to get information out about Oleg from Stan?  This ops gone on a long time for that, but then, no, I don't think she'd be told about the Jennings.  Ditto if she's there simply spying on Stan, but why would she continue to do that if Stan's out of counter-intelligence now?

She could also be a US spy, investigating Stan.

If she's just some horny blond who loves sports I'm going to be pretty disappointed at that time waster.

[Clanstarling]

12 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I found that scene of Elizabeth driving along slowly while the other female agent walked ahead of the focus party. so odd.  Wouldn't those guys see that as strange, especially under the circumstances?

I did too, but they panned back for a moment, and the traffic around her was really slow.

I loved the return. And though I've never been a fan of Paige, I liked her during the watching the movie with Elizabeth and Claudia scene. She seemed to be more mature. Not sure how I felt about her later. But I did think that killing the guy will come back to bite Elizabeth - because Paige will, at some point, hear about it.

The scene that struck me most was Oleg holding his son before he left. There was a lot of emotion in that silent scene.

I liked the music.

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, jjj said:

It reminds me of the plotline a few seasons back, when the very public "defector" was not a defector at all, but everyone on both sides seemed a little or a lot wondering how much to believe her (the "defector").  Not everyone on each side has all the pieces of the puzzle, and that is intentional, to keep firewalls in place.  

Telling more lies is not the way to get out of the main lie (false identity).  I really can't fault Paige for not being able to get back the ID; there is a lot of victim-blaming here ("she should have done 'X' or 'Y'"), but it was the Naval officer who was the problem.  Saying her dad was at the Naval Observatory (eight blocks away) would not last a minute with a security officer from the facility.  He would know who has been admitted to the residence, or who works there.  

She's in her 3rd year of spy training.  I could have got that ID back with no spy training, when I was younger than she was.  However, I'm was never stupid enough to hand over my ID to a sailor.

[jjj]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She's in her 3rd year of spy training.  I could have got that ID back with no spy training, when I was younger than she was.  However, I'm was never stupid enough to hand over my ID to a sailor.

I remember how Elizabeth handled this in a D.C. suburb in Season One when she was asked for her ID while in her car.  The security officer never had a chance.  Apparently Paige has not had that training yet. 

[skippylou]

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Well, so far, this season, I hate the loud and endless music more than Paige.  It's cheap, annoying, and most of these actors don't need "help" conveying emotions and turmoil.

Season 1, for example, was much better in its use of music.  In episode 1, 'Tusk' during the abduction of Timoshev, 'In the air tonight' when P&E disposed the body and then made out in the car, 'Queen of Hearts' when P did his cowboy boot dance,  'April Wine' when P beat up the pervert and 'Tusk' again when Stan breaks into P&E's garage.  Ending season 1 with 'Games without Borders' was absolutely perfect.  

[dubbel zout]

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

They talked about what info Paige had gotten on some weapons

In a college lecture; none of that would be classified.

[RedHawk]

11 hours ago, BW Manilowe said:

I think a lot of the ones in DC are actually near the Smithsonian National Zoo, which I think is also near Rock Creek Park (as I remember, that's where they found the body of that missing Congressional intern, Chandra Levy). I suck at geography though. My brother lives in the Virginia suburbs of DC, near Reagan National Airport. As I remember, we did pass a lot of embassies (& maybe some consulates), & I think Hillary Clinton's DC house from while she was Secretary of State, & maybe also a US Senator from NY, on the way to the National Zoo to see the pandas (I think pre any of their cubs) when we visited my brother. I think the guidebooks called that area "Embassy Row" because so many are located there. As I remember, it was an OK area; maybe a little sketchier the closer you got to Rock Creek Park.

"Embassy Row" (which Elizabeth or the Naval security guard named checked) is Massachusetts Avenue NW from the Dupont Circle area west (up a hill) to where it intersects Wisconsin Avenue NW.  It is not very far from the National Zoo and yes the Clintons' house is on a side street off Mass Ave. Their house is the last one on a street that dead ends at a fence of the Naval Observatory grounds, which was one of the reasons it was an excellent location (security always patrolling and lots of cameras). 

And no, not at all sketchy, then or now, even near Rock Creek Park.  Very wealthy neighborhood that looks much more residential than depicted on the show, but that's because they film it in New York and/or Baltimore and wanted to place Paige outside an office building. 

Edited March 30, 2018 by RedHawk

[TaurusRose]

14 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I'm going to be really annoyed if Henry's plotline this season is just about how he gets to live in blissful ignorance as a typical American teenager. I just can't fathom that the Center would be so incredibly stupid as to place all their hopes on Paige, and completely ignore all of Henry's potential.

I could see Henry ultimately being told the truth, and then going to the authorities. Like a parallel to Jared in season two, who took out his family in a very different way.

As for Paige doing surveillance work, I'll buy it if she's only doing it temporarily as part of Spycraft 101. But if that's the case, the show needs to explain that. It never made sense for Elizabeth and Philip to be doing that kind of work themselves, so I think it's possible that the writers are just going with the conceit that all the illegals do risky grunt work, regardless of how valuable they are.

And I had had zero sympathy for the creepy-ass security guard. I know things were different in the eighties, but a government security employee holding someone's ID card hostage unless she dates him? Ugh.

2

Right because the creepiness of the offense justified his cold-blooded murder.  I am enjoying the show, but I have no sympathy for the Jennings clan.  I expect to see them pay heavy prices for the lives they chose and the crimes they've committed for the Motherland before the series ends.  In particular, I want to see Elizabeth bleed.  To hell with the cyanide pill.

Edited March 30, 2018 by taurusrose

[jjj]

Lots of wigs, but no Mail Robot.  ?

[skippylou]

Has anyone done a body count on each season?

[Dev F]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

AND @Dev F, if that were the explanation the writers were offering, instead of constantly saying how smart and mature she is?  I'd be much more comfortable with her character.

They don't do that though, even though that is a much more workable premise.

I guess to me it doesn't matter what the writers say about the characters. I don't really expect them to parse their own work on a particularly deep level, since that's a little tacky and the writing speaks for itself.

And I think the writing is pretty clear about Paige's motivations. Certainly it's not accidental that the same episode in which Philip and Elizabeth are married in a secret ceremony in a dark warehouse ends with Paige in her parents' darkroom, being initiated into their secret life by Pastor's Tim's hurtful words. It's a perverse echo not only of Philip and Elizabeth's marriage but of Paige's own baptism at the hands of Pastor Tim, the destiny he sees for her taking firm shape in the waters of the developing trays. To me all of that holds much more weight than some dumb thing someone said in an interview or whatever.

Of course, when you're talking about an ongoing series, you can't argue for the complete irrelevance of authorial intent, since the writers are still involved in creating elements of the work that you've yet to see. So what they say about the characters and the story might make you worry about how they're going to handle them subsequently. But nothing in the work so far suggests to me that they would abandon the deeper and more interesting possibilities for Paige in favor of something reductive like Paige is a spy now 'cause she's super smart and mature! Indeed, a lot of the objections people have had to the Paige storyline are basically along the lines of I can't believe the writers think Paige is so smart and mature, since she's so clearly not either of those things! To which I would probably reply that if the show has never shown us that Paige is a smart, mature super-spy, maybe it's because we're not supposed to think she is one.

In other words, I'd rather go with the interesting interpretation of Paige's motivations that seems to seems to match the show's portrayal of the character than fret about a stupid interpretation that the show doesn't seem to support.

[jjj]

Useful tip:. If you want to find reviews or coverage of this episode and still be able to sleep at night, do not Google "Dead Hand," because you will pull up too many articles about the actual Dead Hand program.  

[Umbelina]

10 minutes ago, skippylou said:

Has anyone done a body count on each season?

Someone did.  Before tonight, Liz and Phil both had 16 each.  That's not the total number of kills though, just theirs, and the link is here somewhere.

@Dev F  I do listen to commentaries, so that does influence me when the writers and showrunners and Paige keep saying one thing and showing the opposite.  I like your idea though.  I WISH that was their intent!  However, I would argue that we've heard her parents say such things on the show as well.  Of course, the obvious come back to that is that all parents could think their child is smart and mature.  Still, it's hard to separate inside information and interviews and commentary from those responsible for the show.  I DO think that's been their intent.  Who knows, maybe they gave it up, and decided to follow your idea, and simply didn't tell Holly.  (who said it again at the beginning of this season in an FX preview.)

Edited March 30, 2018 by Umbelina
s

[MJ Frog]

19 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

23 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

Chekhov's suicide pill. Somebody's going to take it, just a matter of who, when, and why.

Point of order.  No one ever used Martha's Gun.  This show is too good to go with the obvious tropes.  Not saying it won’t.  Just saying it doesn’t have to.

Edited 15 hours ago by Chaos Theory.

Fair point. 

[SusanSunflower]

Well, there certainly are plenty of parents in real life who overestimate their childrens' talents and aptitude, beyond "wishful thinking", into trying to control and steer their kid fruitlessly.  The stage or sport parent who sees "talent" in what may be good but unexceptional performance.  Also, I suspect still there are parents who project their own dreams -- of going to medical school or becoming some other professional -- onto a child who's not academically inclined or motivated.  A parent may see future financial security while the kid experiences daily drudgery and boredom.   Elizabeth may also underestimate how hard the job is ... because she's been doing it a long time and because she was thrown into the deep end of the pool and survive.  Parents do sometimes assume that because they are good at something, their kid will be too.  (My mother assumed that I would be bad a the same things she was bad at or disliked. Drove me crazy. "Just like me." No, really, not.) 

Paige -- so far -- has not (imho) shown natural aptitude.  In fact, I realized the now dead navy security guard "snuck up on her" -- really bad rookie move.  Of course, she wants to be good at her job as a spy, not least to please her mother but also for her own sense of worth and competence.  Elizabeth wants her daughter to succeed, not only for her own sake and safety, but also as it reflects of her and her devotion to contributes to "the cause".   

That said, I don't think that's the what's going on here.  I remain doubtful also about Paige's "resiliency" ... say, if something "bad" happened to Claudia, worse if instigated by Elizabeth and/or more "innocent bystander" murders given Elizabeth's now hair-trigger.  Yes, I think the murder of the naval security guard is likely to snowball, not least because I doubt anyone is going to think it was a "mugging" for long.  Claudia and Elizabeth may be loosely on the same side wrt "reforms", but afaict, Claudia has no authorization or need to know and Elizabeth is without a cover story about why she went to Mexico City.   With Claudia, as with Philip, just how much, how far can she trust either with her new secret mission, if at all. (Did I miss or overlook something here?)

Edited March 30, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Darrenbrett]

Okay, I have to say, that was an amazing episode! In fact that was by far my favorite episode of the show -- ever. What an incredible return to form after a little bit of a lackluster season 5. This episode had plenty of what I most love about this show: the long, brooding looks. Elizabeth's (wordless) inner turmoil was particularly compelling. Totally excited to see how this is all going to play out over the next 9 episodes. The show runners have definitely set the table perfectly.

[BW Manilowe]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Someone did.  Before tonight, Liz and Phil both had 16 each.  That's not the total number of kills though, just theirs, and the link is here somewhere.

 

USA Today did a couple of articles about/in preparation for the new season, which ran (I think) on Monday but weren't found & linked in the forum until Wednesday. For whatever reason, 1 had to do with counting how many wigs, kills, & 'honeytraps' Philip & Elizabeth wore &/or were involved with over the length of the series from the beginning. I linked both articles here, in the Media thread.

Edited March 30, 2018 by BW Manilowe
To fix the link, which I think/hope works now

[Haleth]

That was a great start.  Loved the music playing over the action and even conversations.  I'd been afraid this was going to be the Season of Paige, but if her role is kept low key as in this episode it will be ok.  (Still, I hate that she was so easily persuaded.)  The tension between the Jennings is already palpable.  This will not end well.

If anything happens to Oleg I will be very unhappy.

[whiporee]

I know this is simplistic compared to a lot of the conversation here, but I was struck by how little Elizabeth wants peace. She dismissed Phillip's statement about it being good to reduce missiles without even a thought. This Is supposed to be someone who is in the middle of the conflict, and it's clear to me that she cannot conceive of a world without said conflict. My guess is she'd be the one pulling the trigger on Gorbachev or Walsea or Yeltsin -- supporting and maintaining the status quo is more important to her than the potential of saving the world. And she'd be more than willing to activate the Dead Hand itself, because she doesn't seem to care about life itself, she just cares that she is right. As short an exchange as that was, it showed both of them in a much mo0re focused light than they've been shown in a long time. 

[Ellaria]

9 hours ago, jjj said:

Telling more lies is not the way to get out of the main lie (false identity).  I really can't fault Paige for not being able to get back the ID; there is a lot of victim-blaming here ("she should have done 'X' or 'Y'"), but it was the Naval officer who was the problem.  Saying her dad was at the Naval Observatory (eight blocks away) would not last a minute with a security officer from the facility.  He would know who has been admitted to the residence, or who works there.  

 

I don't fault Paige in this instance either. I had a college roommate that had no idea how to respond when a guy at a party was coming on too strong; the rest of us had to step in and help out. (Now, obviously, she wasn't a spy.) Paige's inability to handle the situation points out 1)that her training so far hasn't been very thorough and 2)maybe the "family business" isn't a good fit for her. And this is why I have a problem with Paige-as-a-junior-spy story line: she doesn't seem well-suited to the task. 

7 hours ago, Dev F said:

 But nothing in the work so far suggests to me that they would abandon the deeper and more interesting possibilities for Paige in favor of something reductive like Paige is a spy now 'cause she's super smart and mature! Indeed, a lot of the objections people have had to the Paige storyline are basically along the lines of I can't believe the writers think Paige is so smart and mature, since she's so clearly not either of those things! To which I would probably reply that if the show has never shown us that Paige is a smart, mature super-spy, maybe it's because we're not supposed to think she is one.

In other words, I'd rather go with the interesting interpretation of Paige's motivations that seems to seems to match the show's portrayal of the character than fret about a stupid interpretation that the show doesn't seem to support.

I hope that your interpretation is correct. However, I have doubts. The scene with Paige at the adult dinner party in a discussion with Stan about politics/government/etc may be interpreted as "Paige is smart and perceptive and can hold her own in a debate with an former FBI counterintelligence agent." Or it could be interpreted as "wow, Paige has nothing better to do on a Saturday night but tag along with Mom and Dad."

We may agree that the show - to date - has not supported the character as being smart, mature, etc. However, if they have something else in mind for Paige, they need to demonstrate it soon. (Perhaps it will come when she learns about the murder of the Naval officer. ) The show has to give me a reason to think that there is more to Paige than what we have seen. So far, they have not done it effectively.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[sadie]

I love this episode, I love this show. I thought the music was great. The scene where the music drowns out the dialogue was a great way to show E is just going thru the motions, she’s dialed in but dead inside. I thought Paige looked beautiful but did think the rest of her story was perplexing that she is now full on spy. Whatever I’m gonna roll with it. 

Interesting that the true believer E is miserable and the one embracing evil capitalism, Phillip is happy. Cleverly showing the difference between the USA and USSR. Freedom vs oppression. 

I hate they are setting up spy v spy as I want a happy ending for these two crazy kids (yes despite all the murder and such LOL).

[RedHawk]

There is a parallel with Elizabeth killing to protect Paige. The first time was in the parking lot of the food pantry, when she killed in self-defense but did it by stabbing a man in the neck. This second time again she kills for Paige's protection and again a man is stabbed in the neck. I think Paige will hear of this murder and make the connection.

 

Also, as far as Paige knows, her mother has only killed one person and it was an act of self-defense  and to protect her child. She's totally unaware of all the other murders Elizabeth has committed. I think this will be the beginning of opening Paige's eyes. I don't believe she's lost all her inherent goodness that led her to become a Christian.

Edited March 30, 2018 by RedHawk

[Clanstarling]

6 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Paige -- so far -- has not (imho) shown natural aptitude.  In fact, I realized the now dead navy security guard "snuck up on her" -- really bad rookie move.  Of course, she wants to be good at her job as a spy, not least to please her mother but also for her own sense of worth and competence.  Elizabeth wants her daughter to succeed, not only for her own sake and safety, but also as it reflects of her and her devotion to contributes to "the cause".   

That said, I don't think that's the what's going on here.  I remain doubtful also about Paige's "resiliency" ... say, if something "bad" happened to Claudia, worse if instigated by Elizabeth and/or more "innocent bystander" murders given Elizabeth's now hair-trigger.  Yes, I think the murder of the naval security guard is likely to snowball, not least because I doubt anyone is going to think it was a "mugging" for long.  Claudia and Elizabeth may be loosely on the same side wrt "reforms", but afaict, Claudia has no authorization or need to know and Elizabeth is without a cover story about why she went to Mexico City.   With Claudia, as with Philip, just how much, how far can she trust either with her new secret mission, if at all. (Did I miss or overlook something here?)

I agree. And the only child who did, Henry, has been sidelined so far. But I'm hoping that his boarding school admission was a long game on the part of the USSR. To put him in with the elites of his generation who will be running the world...right about now.

As for Elizabeth, I think part of her fervor is that for some people, when their core beliefs are challenged (and last season was challenge after challenge), they cling more tightly and reject any contradictory information. Especially if it would mean a life's work and sacrifice would ultimately be meaningless.

[Pink-n-Green]

11 hours ago, skippylou said:

No.  If she knows why never let P&E know?  Obvious answer she would have been instructed not to.  Then what would the purpose be?  It would only jeopardize P&E if she is ever caught.  Likewise telling P&E would only jeopardize Stan's GF (I forget her name) if they are ever caught.  Mutual ignorance seems to be the safest strategy.

That's a good point, but remember a few seasons back when the Centre thought Phillip might be up to something so they had him and Ellizabeth kidnapped and interrogated?  Maybe they sent Renee in to keep an eye on them.

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, Ellaria Sand said:

The scene with Paige at the adult dinner party in a discussion with Stan about politics/government/etc

I thought the adults were pretty amused with Paige: "Oh, here comes the college student with her big ideas." That scene felt very typical to me.

[meira.hand]

On 3/29/2018 at 1:41 PM, Kokapetl said:

Philip looks like he’s had a facelift or something.

I think they made a conscious effort, via careful makeup, to show how good he felt with the stress removed from his life and how much worse she looked with the added work and stress. Before she looked great and he looked bad and now they reversed it.

[BW Manilowe]

11 hours ago, jjj said:

I actually thought "this is a bad neighborhood" was just a line to get Paige to roll down the window.  (although it might have been a bad neighborhood)  But anyone who has not been in this situation -- please don't try to get out of the car and "flirt your way out of it" or "ruffle his hair" -- that can go bad really fast.  Right answer is just to ask , "so, I can call the Naval Observatory when I need my ID to get back in my dorm?".  The guy knew this would not pass anyone's smell test.  I once had a car dealership refuse to return my license when I wanted to leave because they thought they were being cute, and it did not take the time to finish dialing "9-1-1" to have them hand it back.  

Well, it was not "her" ID card (it was a fake ID with different name and false address), but that was not the problem -- she needed not to have a trail of fake-Ellen in D.C. with her picture on it.  Imagine if Stan had an ID of Elizabeth with a different name -- even if she was wearing a magic wig and glasses.  

I knew, or at least thought it might not be, a legal ID. I said so when I answered.

[RedHawk]

It bums me out that we got so little of Henry this episode. Many of us have expressed great interest in his character and all we get is a few shots playing hockey and a reference to him being "taller than Phillip now", which Phillip laughingly denied!  Geez, I hope that's the writers' way of "preparing" us for his reentry into the show. (Apparently they think no one has ever seen a teenaged son who is noticeably taller than a father.) i'm holding out hope that he will have a strong storyline this final season.

[BingeyKohan]

17 minutes ago, Pink-n-Green said:

That's a good point, but remember a few seasons back when the Centre thought Phillip might be up to something so they had him and Ellizabeth kidnapped and interrogated?  Maybe they sent Renee in to keep an eye on them.

What throws me off about this is that Renee was pumping Aderholt's wife for information about 'the couple' - assumed to be the Russian couple from last season, the guy being the hockey player and his fiance the woman who would nervously interact with Stan and Aderholt as she was recruited. if Renee is an agent she would care about them for her own purposes, unless the whole point of that was to keep Elizabeth suspicious and she only asked because she knew Elizabeth could hear her. 

I guess it will become clearer in the next few episodes what we're supposed to think of Paige's competency as a spy but her competency as a human was called into question for me when she stood up and basically recapped the entire plot of the program they had just watched. Not just one plot point or observation but like four in a row. If I were Elizabeth I would have been like YES HONEY WE WATCHED THE SAME THING YOU DID, now go wait in the car.

[meira.hand]

On 3/29/2018 at 7:37 AM, skippylou said:

My prediction: At some point this season Stan will close in on the Jennings family.

I have no prediction on that but I really need him to find out so I can see his reaction. Especially if he realizes that Philip was the one who killed his friend (in season 1).

[misstwpherecool]

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

AND @Dev F, if that were the explanation the writers were offering, instead of constantly saying how smart and mature she is?  I'd be much more comfortable with her character.

They don't do that though, even though that is a much more workable premise.

Granny must be kept in the dark though, according to him as well.

So, lots of lies and treason going on this year.

 Who is going to defect, flip or switch sides are the big questions because it's not just the US v USSR it's multiple factions. I'm not so much hung up on who dies if anyone.

[scowl]

17 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Well, so far, this season, I hate the loud and endless music more than Paige.  It's cheap, annoying, and most of these actors don't need "help" conveying emotions and turmoil.

I don't mind the episodes that end in with a song, but there were what, three or four songs in this episode? It starts to look like laziness to me. It's easier to pay for an 80's song and edit a wordless montage for it than to write a scene that has good dialog and solid acting that advances the plot. I never would have thought the Miami Vice pilot would still be influencing television over thirty years later. 

[BW Manilowe]

12 hours ago, Pink-n-Green said:

Speaking of moles, the mole on Oleg's wife's neck was very distracting.  I kept expecting it to start talking.  And I don't like Oleg's beard.

Does anyone else think that, although she encouraged him to quit the business, Elizabeth resents Phillip for line dancing, visiting Henry at school, etc. while she's murdering sailors and sleeping with gross old guys?

Paige looks really pretty with her new haircut but, geez, I'd forgotten about how eighties shoulder pads made even a petite woman look like a linebacker!

I wonder if we'll ever see Tuan again?

Those of you who think Stan's girlfriend is an illegal; do you think the knows who Phillip and Elizabeth really are?

I seem to be in the minority, but I liked the scene with Elizabeth, Paige and Claudia watching the Russian movie.  Paige and Claudia seem to have a nice, warm relationship.

I was originally going to TiVO the entire season and not watch until it was over.  That lasted until about 15 minutes after this episode ended :)

One more thing:  P and E were pretty mentally check out when Paige and Henry were growing up (especially E) I think Paige is thrilled that her mother is finally taking an interest in her and if spying for the Soviet Union is a way to keep Elizabeth's interest, she'll do just that.

I think now that Elizabeth has begun bonding with Paige, & perhaps realized what she missed by not letting herself get closer to the kids when they were growing up, that yeah, she resents it at least seems Philip has all this time to spend with especially Henry, as well as line dancing etc.--like he's not even worried about the whole "spy" thing anymore; although I'm pretty sure he does maintain an interest in those things since his wife's still an active operative, & now their daughter is at least a part-time active operative as well (trying to make sure, the best he can, that the mission won't be really dangerous for either/both of them).

I agree... Paige will probably do anything she has to to keep her mom interested in her, in a positive way as opposed to a negative way.

[Darrenbrett]

4 hours ago, whiporee said:

I know this is simplistic compared to a lot of the conversation here, but I was struck by how little Elizabeth wants peace. She dismissed Phillip's statement about it being good to reduce missiles without even a thought. This Is supposed to be someone who is in the middle of the conflict, and it's clear to me that she cannot conceive of a world without said conflict. My guess is she'd be the one pulling the trigger on Gorbachev or Walsea or Yeltsin -- supporting and maintaining the status quo is more important to her than the potential of saving the world. And she'd be more than willing to activate the Dead Hand itself, because she doesn't seem to care about life itself, she just cares that she is right. As short an exchange as that was, it showed both of them in a much mo0re focused light than they've been shown in a long time. 

I think you're mis-representing/mis-understanding what's going on for her. It's not that she doesn't want world peace at all. It's that she's convinced that the spread of the Soviet form of government is the way to save the world. Compromise, for her, like all idealists, just seems like a move away from what's best for the greater good. She's not a warmonger. She's an idealist. And sometimes, in situations like these, that makes her (and them, idealists) even more dangerous. Remember, she really believes she's doing the right thing.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Darrenbrett

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I thought the adults were pretty amused with Paige: "Oh, here comes the college student with her big ideas." That scene felt very typical to me.

Sat through those dinners a time or two.

1 hour ago, BW Manilowe said:

I think now that Elizabeth has begun bonding with Paige, & perhaps realized what she missed by not letting herself get closer to the kids when they were growing up, that yeah, she resents it at least seems Philip has all this time to spend with especially Henry, as well as line dancing etc.--like he's not even worried about the whole "spy" thing anymore; although I'm pretty sure he does maintain an interest in those things since his wife's still an active operative, & now their daughter is at least a part-time active operative as well (trying to make sure, the best he can, that the mission won't be really dangerous for either/both of them).

I do agree that Elizabeth resents him being a "normal" person. Even if the decision was mutual (I think it was, but it's been a while), working alone has taken a heavy toll on her. Or rather, working without Phillip.

My take is that although Phillip is happier being out of the business, their marriage is suffering for it. I imagine the Centre has forbidden Elizabeth from discussing anything regarding her missions, so he's out of the loop and can't talk to her about anything she considers substantive. Their work was the one consistent point of connection in their marriage, and I think they both miss having someone to decompress with. Add an empty nest to that, and Phillip and Elizabeth seem, in this episode, more like two people sharing a house than a couple who love and need each other.

Arkady mentioned to Olaf that Phillip had contacted him back in the day and from that meeting had gathered from that encounter that Phillip was philosophically in their camp. Since that contact was Phillip warning them to keep their hands off of their kids (IIRC), I can't help but believe that Phillip holds some resentment that Paige is now an operative. He's the one who told them who they were, but Elizabeth is the one who started training her.

They seemed, to me, almost as distant from each other emotionally as in the first episode of the show.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Clanstarling

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Darrenbrett said:

I think you're mis-representing/mis-understanding what's going on for her. It's not that she doesn't want world peace at all. It's that she's convinced that the spread of the Soviet form of government is the way to save the world. Compromise, for her, like all idealists, just seems like a move away from what's best for the greater good. She's not a warmonger. She's an idealist. And sometimes, in situations like these, that makes her (and them, idealists) even more dangerous. Remember, she really believes she's doing the right thing.

 

I agree with this.

Also, Elizabeth has been gone from the USSR for a very long time.  The idea behind socialism and communism is equality, and changing the entire world so that there would never be a need for war or weapons of mass destruction again.  No more peasants fighting peasants so the very rich get much richer, no more discrimination in education or "worth" based on what particular job you have, or what sex you are.  Women could vote there before they could vote here.  No more giant religions keeping people in their miserable lives because "heaven" is waiting for those obedient and meek followers, and by the way, send in your tithing.  No more holy wars to please the great God in the sky somewhere, no more religion to sooth the reality of people's actual lives on earth.

Elizabeth (and some others) still believe that the "growing pains" of changing an entire world view are normal and worth it for the outcome of world peace and equal prosperity for all citizens.  I'm sure Elizabeth has been taught about WWI, and the blockade by other nations ensuring the fledgling "by the people, FOR the people" Bolshevik regime would starve and fail, and of course, still be at war, even though one of the main reasons the revolution worked was to get the soldiers OUT of that war completely.  She has valid historical reasons for hating the capitalist world, and specifically the USA.

Of course, the reality is that the dream never happened, because leaders emerged and made their new government a dictatorship, ripe for take over by the ruthless, murderous, and horrifying Stalin.  He's finally gone though, so some continue with the dream that their dream of an equal, peaceful world will work, it just needs more time...and to stop the USA interference.

In the meantime, Elizabeth and other "soldiers" must do whatever it takes, the means justifies the end.

It's not a bad dream, and I can understand Elizabeth's devotion to it.  People get devoted to political systems, even when the evidence is all around them that their is not working, they cling, the resist reforms, they, if they are the patriotic types, defend to the death something that is outmoded or lopsided or insane. 

As far as the weapons they are discussing?  I see both sides of that issue.  Why would a true patriot of a country want to disarm their own, while the other side made few concessions essentially leaving all most of the weapons in the hands of your enemy?  

Edited March 30, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

14 hours ago, Pink-n-Green said:

Does anyone else think that, although she encouraged him to quit the business, Elizabeth resents Phillip for line dancing, visiting Henry at school, etc. while she's murdering sailors and sleeping with gross old guys?

 

Absolutely. At least, I think it feels like resentment to her. I don't think she's ready to think about it as remorse for her own choices. Or just...feeling like this should feel different.

14 hours ago, Pink-n-Green said:

I seem to be in the minority, but I liked the scene with Elizabeth, Paige and Claudia watching the Russian movie.  Paige and Claudia seem to have a nice, warm relationship.

 

Paige and Claudia having a warm relationship, to me, is very much like Paige's relationship with Pastor Tim. She's adopted all of Claudia's views as her own, even considering "the Americans" as a default other. But adopting all the views of a woman who's entire life depends on the conflict of the Cold War continuing and the USSR being a model society whose flaws are inconsequential isn't exactly a good thing. Also having a warm relationship with someone whose job it is to make sure you do whatever the KGB wants is a dangerous version of "warm relationship."

It's like Philip and Elizabeth said last season talking about Gabriel. Philip said he didn't really love them, he was just their boss. Elizabeth said it could be both. And they were both right. Gabriel *could* love them while also manipulating them. But ultimately he would have to pick one or the other because they would be in conflict. Gabriel chose love and so had to quit. It's unlikely Claudia would ever choose anything but the KGB. And unfortunately Paige doesn't seem to understand the real nature of the relationship. Or at least, she doesn't see why that would be a bad thing.

Paige also doesn't know that Claudia really doesn't like her father and once worked to get him out of the house.

14 hours ago, Pink-n-Green said:

One more thing:  P and E were pretty mentally check out when Paige and Henry were growing up (especially E) I think Paige is thrilled that her mother is finally taking an interest in her and if spying for the Soviet Union is a way to keep Elizabeth's interest, she'll do just that.

If Paige felt her mother and father didn't take an interest in her before she spied for the USSR then I don't know how Paige's craving for attention could ever be satisfied. Her parents have paid near-obsession attention to her from the start of the show. Elizabeth, especially, has been practically the center of Paige's social life since S3. They were never checked out of her life. Including season 1.

Henry didn't get that kind of attention, but he was a more independent kid. They weren't checked out on him either. But Paige, especially, was never ignored. She was incredibly demanding of attention and just still needed more. Those hours at church alone were far beyond what was necessary for being an attentive mother, imo. 

14 hours ago, RedHawk said:

She wasn't in a bad neighborhood. He was trying to get a date and used his "authority" to question her sitting there (which was likely within his job) and then he asked her to have dinner with him on the coming Saturday night. He didn't keep her ID to check her identity, he did it to force her into the date. He even told her that. 

Yes, that's what I was saying--it might not have come across right. I was being sarcastic about actually believing it was logical to take her ID because she was in a bad neighborhood.

Quote

Telling more lies is not the way to get out of the main lie (false identity).  I really can't fault Paige for not being able to get back the ID; there is a lot of victim-blaming here ("she should have done 'X' or 'Y'"), but it was the Naval officer who was the problem.  Saying her dad was at the Naval Observatory (eight blocks away) would not last a minute with a security officer from the facility.  He would know who has been admitted to the residence, or who works there.

Looking at the situation just as itself, of course the sailor was the problem. Paige did nothing wrong as a person by giving him her ID. It's completely understandable why a woman in that situation would just give the guy what he wanted to get away. That would be smart.

But what's actually going on is that Paige is a spy who needs to protect her identity. In that context she's doing a job and has more responsibility to resist letting the guy walk away with her ID. She's a girl being harassed by a guy abusing his power, but she's also the villain--a traitor undermining national security. The former doesn't cancel out the latter. It's really more vice versa. When you become a criminal you give up the protection of the law. When she became a spy she made it her responsibility to win situations like this more.

That said, on the subject of whether she should tell more lies, I don't think that was necessarily the idea. That is, Paige telling the guy "I'm waiting for an authority figure" line is a way of saying "I know you're trying to harass me and I want you to go away." It's not coming up with a lie to fool the guy, it's making it more confrontational in the hopes that he'll back off if he meets resistance--while still keeping it out of open "fuck off, creep" territory.

Quote

 

Dev F:

Of course, when you're talking about an ongoing series, you can't argue for the complete irrelevance of authorial intent, since the writers are still involved in creating elements of the work that you've yet to see. So what they say about the characters and the story might make you worry about how they're going to handle them subsequently.

 

That's exactly the thing that makes me nervous about it. When they speak so confidently about Paige being strong and confident it does seem like we're just supposed to see this as Paige maturing into a formidable young woman via spying and it doesn't matter what she's spying for because one belief is as good as any other. Like if Elizabeth can be a true believer why couldn't Paige? Why would their different backgrounds matter? etc.

But then, there's a lot on the show that seems to validate what I'm seeing, particularly given how very clueless Paige really is. I mean, it seems especially significant that we have a scene where Paige is watching a movie with Elizabeth and Claudia about Russia and they're all having fairly simplistic reactions (this was cool, that was like a dorm, that's what it's like there...) with Elizabeth having what maybe was a moment of disconnect (I can't believe what Moscow looks like now). But in the same episode we've got this storyline of Russians vs. Russians, people arguing about things that Paige herself doesn't seem like she'd understand even if she learned about it. Because she's not Russian. For her the country is a symbol. She's adopted Claudia and Elizabeth's view of it--after all, constant war and distrust of Americans suits her psychological needs in a similar way to her own. But she just assumes that's "the Russian view" since Elizabeth seems to think that too. She would have no business even entering a conversation about the central conflict here. At least, not as a Russian. 
 

Quote

 

That's a good point, but remember a few seasons back when the Centre thought Phillip might be up to something so they had him and Ellizabeth kidnapped and interrogated?  Maybe they sent Renee in to keep an eye on them.

 

 

 

Just FYI, they didn't think Philip was up to something. They knew there was a mole and were questioning everyone. They worked Philip harder because Elizabeth had told them to mistrust him. If they were that suspicious of Philip at this point they surely would have just insisted he come home. Presumably he's still there because they know Elizabeth wants him there.
 

Quote

 

I think you're mis-representing/mis-understanding what's going on for her. It's not that she doesn't want world peace at all. It's that she's convinced that the spread of the Soviet form of government is the way to save the world. Compromise, for her, like all idealists, just seems like a move away from what's best for the greater good. She's not a warmonger. She's an idealist. And sometimes, in situations like these, that makes her (and them, idealists) even more dangerous. Remember, she really believes she's doing the right thing.

 

 

 

I think that's what she believes, absolutely, but underneath I think she also absolutely psychologically afraid of a big change, even a peaceful one. In practical terms, as I think you're saying here, her thinking that nothing less than the total destruction of capitalism is good enough is as good as an insistence on total war. Her reaction to potential disarmament wasn't a considered ideological objection, it was knee-jerk anti-Americanism. They couldn't have a treaty because the Americans are inherently treacherous, and this justified constant Soviet treachery.

I think her reactions in those scenes, both in the lines and the performance, did indicate a fear of peace--that is, a fear of change. Fear that what she's fighting for isn't the most important thing in the world. It wasn't the same as her being a warmonger. She didn't want to bomb the US. But she also didn't want to consider good faith negotiations. Part of that's purity--compromise with the US means the USSR is less pure. But her reaction seemed also very defensive. And of course that was after she'd gone to Mexico so she had even more reason to fear that she was wrong. She had at that point committed to undermining Gorbachev's ability to negotiate in good faith--committed to the point of being part of a coup. So when Philip raises the possibility of a real treaty she accuses the Americans of doing that, thus justifying her doing it herself. 

Edited March 30, 2018 by sistermagpie

[dubbel zout]

Re: Dead Hand. I'm a bit confused what the Big Secret is. Is it the program itself, that Gorbachev will be killed if the negotiators give it up, both? Having a retaliatory plan if the US fires missiles first seems logical to me. I wouldn't be shocked to learn the US had something similar.

5 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I can't help but believe that Phillip holds some resentment that Paige is now an operative.

I don't think Philip ever wanted the kids to become operatives. He had sort of bought into that part of the American Dream where your kids do better than you.

[Clanstarling]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think her reactions in those scenes, both in the lines and the performance, did indicate a fear of peace--that is, a fear of change. Fear that what she's fighting for isn't the most important thing in the world. It wasn't the same as her being a warmonger. She didn't want to bomb the US. But she also didn't want to consider good faith negotiations. Part of that's purity--compromise with the US means the USSR is less pure. But her reaction seemed also very defensive. And of course that was after she'd gone to Mexico so she had even more reason to fear that she was wrong. She had at that point committed to undermining Gorbachev's ability to negotiate in good faith--committed to the point of being part of a coup. So when Philip raises the possibility of a real treaty she accuses the Americans of doing that, thus justifying her doing it herself. 

I agree. Her responses are complicated emotionally, although on the surface they seem very knee-jerk and brainwashed. She's no dummy, she saw enough stuff last season to at least have a worm of doubt in her mind. But she doubled-down while Phillip peaced out.

[kokapetl]

19 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Re: Dead Hand. I'm a bit confused what the Big Secret is. Is it the program itself, that Gorbachev will be killed if the negotiators give it up, both? Having a retaliatory plan if the US fires missiles first seems logical to me. I wouldn't be shocked to learn the US had something similar.

I don't think Philip ever wanted the kids to become operatives. He had sort of bought into that part of the American Dream where your kids do better than you.

I don’t think America has ever had a “no first use” policy, so dead hand makes total sense. 

Edited March 30, 2018 by Kokapetl

[Chaos Theory]

I don’t know why I am defending Paige so hard.  Maybe because I think I might actually like her.  Or even worse see myself in her,  I didn’t have many friends growing up and I was a virgin into my mid twenties.  I can see myself handling the situation with the Navy guy exactly the same way Paige did.   I know there are plenty of people who would have taken him to a dark ally and screwed him there....but I don’t think that would have even crossed my mind.  And I don’t think it would have crossed Paige’s.  

Maybe after Paige would have Panicked and if Elizabeth hadn’t been so frazzled It would have been a perfect learning experience for Paige on how to honeytrap a man.   He could have been her first long term assignment.  Someone low key that she could have “practiced” on.     

But then this is the final season of the show and it’s not really about slow burning anymore.  It’s about that final moment when you decide whether or not to press the button that destroys us all.  

Edited March 30, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Dev F]

31 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Re: Dead Hand. I'm a bit confused what the Big Secret is. Is it the program itself, that Gorbachev will be killed if the negotiators give it up, both? Having a retaliatory plan if the US fires missiles first seems logical to me. I wouldn't be shocked to learn the US had something similar.

I would think the secret is the fact that it doesn't yet work, along with any details about those involved in its development. The interest of the hardliners is in it becoming a fait accompli, not something that could be thwarted or bargained away.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Dev F

[Umbelina]

We saw Elizabeth train Hans.  She's now been training Paige for over three years.  Actually, we can assume quite easily that Paige has even more of Elizabeth's attention.  If, after three years of training, Paige can't handle some guy hitting on her, and obediently handing over her fake IDs with her photos on them?  There is a problem.

If the guy had been a police officer?  Then I could understand her utter incompetence, but he was not. 

I'm pretty sure Elizabeth has managed to convey the first rules of spying, one being "get the fuck out of there if you can."  But pedantic Paige, never even considered just driving away.  Her part of the surveillance was far less important that protecting her cover, but ever eager to please mommy and apparently incapable of holding more than one goal in her sluggish brain, she just obediently did as told.  Much as she did getting into the car with the dude Henry had to clonk over the head with a beer bottle.

She's just not cut out for this, but who knows?  Maybe that is the point.  Elizabeth and even Granny want to believe she is.  Gabe, who I believe said "never should have brought Paige into this" or something like that, and Philip never thought she could handle it.   Maybe all the interviews are a scam to hide part of the ending of the show, that Paige, supremely incompetent and never capable of being a good soviet spy, screws up royally, bringing it all to a crashing conclusion?

[SusanSunflower]

Worse, Paige lost "situational awareness" and the security guard "snuck" up on her .... the guard could have just as easily been a mugger or someone attracted to messing with a young woman alone ... I hope her car door was locked.  I remember Elizabeth chastising Henry for losing situational awareness of his 360-degree surroundings ... it's not a small thing to drop that sort of vigilance and if she had caught sight of the officer, there might have been no encounter, no ID theft, no murder. 

[sistermagpie]

38 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I don’t know why I am defending Paige so hard.  Maybe because I think I might actually like her.  Or even worse see myself in her,  I didn’t have many friends growing up and I was a virgin into my mid twenties.  I can see myself handling the situation with the Navy guy exactly the same way Paige did.   I know there are plenty of people who would have taken him to a dark ally and screwed him there....but I don’t think that would have even crossed my mind.  And I don’t think it would have crossed Paige’s.  

 

I don't think we can assume Paige is a virgin. Sure she has no friends or a boyfriend, but she may have taken the opportunity to have sex--she's always been a magnet for guys. I don't think Elizabeth gave her any sex lessons, but Paige might easily have talked to her about sex and used it as a lesson.

Also, she *was* flirting with the guy. Not on the level of pulling him into an alley, obviously, but she responded to his come-ons by smiling and saying she'd see him again, that she couldn't forget him. I don't mean she was "flirting" in the sense meaning that she was "asking for it" or anything--I just mean that her way of dealing with the guy was to act like his charm was working on her, presumably so he'd leave feeling satisfied. Pretty standard defense behavior for women. But then when the guy took her ID and nothing came to her mind about what to do about that except tell her Mom.

In general, it seems important to separate Paige as a person from her job. There's nothing stupid about giving the guy the idea as a person. It just can't be considered a win for her as a spy. A regular girl calculating the loss of her ID vs. having to confront the a strange guy in an isolated area would have very different things to consider.

22 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Her part of the surveillance was far less important that protecting her cover, but ever eager to please mommy and apparently incapable of holding more than one goal in her sluggish brain, she just obediently did as told. 

Just to refresh my memory, she wasn't even working yet, right? She was reading in her car before her "shift" started, iirc. 

 

Quote

 

We saw Elizabeth train Hans.  She's now been training Paige for over three years.  

 

That actually reminds me of when Hans was seen climbing over that wall by the other SA operative. Elizabeth told him his career was over. Not because there was something inherently terrible about not being a good wall-climber, but because he'd been seen by that guy.

Edited March 30, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Mrs peel]

2 hours ago, Darrenbrett said:

I think you're mis-representing/mis-understanding what's going on for her. It's not that she doesn't want world peace at all. It's that she's convinced that the spread of the Soviet form of government is the way to save the world. Compromise, for her, like all idealists, just seems like a move away from what's best for the greater good. She's not a warmonger. She's an idealist. And sometimes, in situations like these, that makes her (and them, idealists) even more dangerous. Remember, she really believes she's doing the right thing.

I agree, and I wonder whether her meeting in Mexico is the first time she has solid evidence that the USSR doesn't speak with one voice.  Sure, we know there were multiple plots within the Politburo, but I suspect Elizabeth never did.

Now she's being told there's a faction that seeks to undermine the decisions of the leader of the country.....how will she react to that?  I wouldn't expect her to immediately refuse the mission, but now she needs to decide where her loyalty lies WITHIN the USSR.  Of course, I suspect Elizabeth will follow the KGB; it's Phillip who would have wondered what the heck is going on back home.  The show has always shown Phillip as more nuanced on the question of US v. USSR (except during the time period when he was lied to about what happened in, was it, Afganistan).  Elizabeth has always been all in.

When that scene was on, I immediately thought of Putin and today's Russia.  Technically there's no KGB, but it certainly still exists.  And it "won" v. Gorbachev, though Elizabeth wouldn't recognize the "worker's paradise" today.

[RedHawk]

25 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Just to refresh my memory, she wasn't even working yet, right? She was reading in her car before her "shift" started, iirc. 

 I'm not sure but it doesn't matter. She was parked near a sensitive military area and she allowed herself to lose herself in her book rather than keep her antenna up as to what was going on around her.  She did not see that guy approaching her car. Dumb rookie behavior I would expect from a typical suburban kid but not someone who may have been training for three years to do this sort of work.  I think ithe purpose was to show us that Paige  isn't cut out for this and has no innate skill or aptitude  for it. I agree with those who think she's doing it mainly to please her mother and because she needs a Cause.

[jjj]

25 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

 I'm not sure but it doesn't matter. She was parked near a sensitive military area and she allowed herself to lose herself in her book rather than keep her antenna up as to what was going on around her.  She did not see that guy approaching her car. Dumb rookie behavior I would expect from a typical suburban kid but not someone who may have been training for three years to do this sort of work.  I think ithe purpose was to show us that Paige  isn't cut out for this and has no innate skill or aptitude  for it. I agree with those who think she's doing it mainly to please her mother and because she needs a Cause.

Yes, she said she was "waiting for my next shift" (at the diner) and reading in the car in a zone that was supposed to be far enough away from the target work that it was "safe" in spy terms. 

 

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

We saw Elizabeth train Hans. 

And Hans panicked and conducted one of the most inept and gruesome murders on the show (library/ book supply worker who had seen him) -- so Hans is the flip side of what can go wrong when a newbie panics. 

Edited March 30, 2018 by jjj

[Sarah 103]

5 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I agree. And the only child who did, Henry, has been sidelined so far. But I'm hoping that his boarding school admission was a long game on the part of the USSR. To put him in with the elites of his generation who will be running the world...right about now.

This is pretty much my theory too. I don't think the USSR planned for him to go the boarding school, but once they found out, they started making plans for him. He is part of a long game. 

4 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I thought the adults were pretty amused with Paige: "Oh, here comes the college student with her big ideas." That scene felt very typical to me.

That's pretty much the reaction I had. They think she's pretty much a typical college student. 

3 hours ago, scowl said:

 I never would have thought the Miami Vice pilot would still be influencing television over thirty years later. 

The influence of MTV and Miami Vice on television and popular culture is massive. It wasn't just a blip in the 1980s, but instead was a lasting impact which caused dramatic change. There is editing before MTV and editing after MTV.  

[Erin9]

My only real thought on Paige’s competence as a spy is that in the first big assignment we see her undertaking- outside of the Pastor Tim thing which I don’t feel like really counts- Elizabeth had to clean up after her- and didn’t tell her she did. Kind of says it all imo. 

Whatever excuse we want to give her- her picture with a fake ID wound up in the wrong hands. Sure- I think Elizabeth was motivated as a mother to clean this up and protect Paige- but I think she’d have done the same thing regarding another spy. You don’t want fake picture IDs floating around. 

She didn’t tell Paige that she felt she’d screwed up. She certainly would have for anyone else. And that person might be dead too. Or done as a spy. Paige is getting different treatment. Elizabeth is usually more harsh. 

I think it’s significant that the other woman spy doesn’t think Paige is ready for this. 

Right now- I don’t see Paige as turning out to be a great spy. 

Edited March 30, 2018 by Erin9