S04.E08: Nothing is Set in Stone

[msrachelj]

On 2/21/2018 at 4:08 AM, SDVegas said:

Greg can do so much better than that wife he has.

I wonder what attracted him to her in the first place. He was much more attractive than she was when they got married, and now he is so much kinder than she is, and she is selfish and disrespectful to him. He deserves better.

i agree, except for the attractive part. jeannette may not be a raving beauty but that is superficial. it is the way she treats her husband and lets  her daughter get everything she wants that i can not stand. from  what we see, greg is a very nice , kind man and a good provider. good catch!

[msrachelj]

19 hours ago, Lynn said:

A few thoughts:

I am not fond of Janette, but I must say that their wedding picture was beautiful. 

Janette does not put any value in Greg's concerns. They should continue as they are for another year so Jazz can be entirely responsible for this huge decision. Clearly, Greg doesn't want to be responsible for it.

What if, after growing up, Jazz decides she was really that gay boy of her "past life" waking dream? Too late.  Actor Rupert Everette wrote that he wanted to be a girl when he was a child and his parents let him wear dresses and do girl things. When he hit puberty, he realized he was a gay man and is now grateful his parents did not block puberty or encourage surgery.

the wedding picture was gorgeous.

jeannette really is only all about jazz. does not include her husband in anything. does not put her foot down with jazz as far as how she spoils her. 

i have those thoughts also. what if this was just a phase that little jazz was going through? i have seen quite a few little boys act like  girls, wear dresses, put on makeup, play with dolls etc. it can be a phase, a normal phase. does a 3 year old really have that deep an understanding? i am torn on this, one one hand , if you are truly mind and body different, it's one thing but what if it's almost a munchausen by proxy sort of deal. it makes me very sad for the whole situation.

16 hours ago, Cotypubby said:

I don't think it's the case at all that "none of them had any issue" with putting Jazz on hormone blockers way back when, but they weighed the options at the time and decided that would be best for Jazz's well-being. I'm sure the grandparents & Greg had more resistance to it than Jeanette, but that's no longer a big issue for them. It definitely wasn't the case that Jazz said "I want to be a girl" and the whole family was immediately like "OK! Here's your blockers! Have fun!" I believe I remember hearing in earlier seasons how they agonized over whether or not to do it.

That tattoo she got is ugly. Grandpa is right, it's hard to even tell that is a mermaid! I thought it was weird that the tattoo artist had no visible tattoos herself, it made me wonder if she actually was doing the tattoo or if that whole thing was fake.

i don't think i've ever seen a tattoo artist with no , visible at least, tattoos! i noticed that too. it's strange. and that was an odd area to place it. 

[msrachelj]

4 hours ago, thebigboot said:

“The eight rabbinical scholars interviewed for this article, from institutions like the Jewish Theological Seminary and Yeshiva University, said it’s an urban legend, most likely started because a specific cemetery had a policy against tattoos. Jewish parents and grandparents picked up on it and over time, their distaste for tattoos was presented as scriptural doctrine.”

Also, the rabbinical council ruled in favor of trans people. So yeah, no religious argument on that one. 

this is interesting, growing up around many jewish people, it was always said that they could not get tattoos. something about defacing the body. i don't think i ever talked to a one, who thought it was ok. i'm kind of shocked that it's not true. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Well, as far as we know, Dr. Bowers hasn't done the surgery YET.  So, I hope there is still time for reasonable minds to prevail.  God bless them all, is what I say.  It seems like a very risky thing to precede with, under the circumstances. I mean, it's not as if Dr. Bowers has not warned them many times, that it will not precede, unless things are perfect. They should be preceding cautiously, because they have been warned.   I can't imagine things will be all lined up, even if she does lose the weight, since that's only part of the issue. I suspect that mom and dad are too close to the situation and don't have an unbiased opinion.  I hope the mental heath professionals don't let her down. 

I think Jeannette is a fine looking lady, but, she could use a new hairstyle.  Did you notice she has the exact same style  she had when she got married? lol  A new style would really help, imo.  But, I agree that it's not looks, but, her demeanor and attitude that are the turnoff.  She's obsessed with catering to Jazz and it doesn't reflect her in a very good light.  And, I don't see this ever ending.  This unhealthy dynamic seems to have no end in sight.  I can't imagine Jazz going to college.  It's difficult to envision her doing much except doing classes online, living at home and not really being able to get on with her life.  I hope I'm wrong. 

Edited February 22, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[bichonblitz]

7 hours ago, Bridget said:

When the kids were standing in the background during the vow renewal, it dawned on me that not a single one of them even remotely resembles Jeanette. It's not the first time I've noticed it (none of them are blonde or wear those God awful glasses! haha!), but maybe because they all resemble Greg so strongly, even the girls, that it is part of her deep desire to insert herself into her children's lives more than you average mama bear?  

I'm sure Jeanette is a natural brunette. That's an obvious terrible brassy blonde dye job she's been sporting for 20+ years. 

[Treehugger]

3 hours ago, msrachelj said:

this is interesting, growing up around many jewish people, it was always said that they could not get tattoos. something about defacing the body. i don't think i ever talked to a one, who thought it was ok. i'm kind of shocked that it's not true. 

It's likely that Jazz's grandfather was raised at a time when people did think there was a religious prohibition against tattoos for Jewish people. He also may have been raised around some relatives who related experiences of the Holocaust. I think the grandfather tried to hold it together during the proclamation from Jazz that she had gotten a tattoo, and it appeared to me he was truly emotional over what Jazz had done. I felt bad that the vow renewal, staged as it was by TLC, was used as a platform to reveal the tattoo and the surgery date. Greg looked sucker punched.

[SunnyBeBe]

While grandpa is a senior, I think that his shock was rather reasonable.  I think that plenty of younger people and parents would also be appalled. But, what's the harm really?  I'm sure that if Jazz decides that she doesn't like it, they will pay for a new one, modification or a procedure to have it removed.  I wonder if Jazz even considered why a tattoo that is visible on the arm might be an unwise move.  

[calpurnia99]

I have seen so many people with the UGLIEST tattoos. I do know one woman who has some beautiful ones, but she is an anomaly. I think Jazz's is ugly as sin and does not look like a mermaid. Let alone it's much bigger than her dad wanted and in a stupid place. I can't think of a dumber place for a tattoo. Ankle or the tramp stamp area, shoulder, hip, top of pelvis. But inside of your arm? Who does that? It's looks like she spilled something there.  You can see it, but you cannot see what the hell it is!

Edited February 22, 2018 by calpurnia99

[mythoughtis]

I’m not Jewish. I however was under the impression that Jewish people did not get tattoos because of the Holocaust.  

[woodscommaelle]

I don't mind tattoos. I'm Jewish, I have one.  I'll be buried in a Jewish cemetery no problem.

However, the shape of that mermaid was fucking terrible. It was like she had no body; just too skinny.  No good.  I did like the colors though.

Someone mentioned it will fade bc it was a water color style.  Is that true? 

[janedi]

11 hours ago, JocelynCavanaugh said:

Facial hair isn’t unheard of on cis-females, especially of certain ethnicities or hormonal challenges, so I’m not too concerned. Jazz’s dad seems to be of Sephardic descent, so it may just come with the territory. Maybe Jazz will decide to do something with it or maybe it doesn’t bother her.

Based on their real last name. I'm pretty sure he is Ashkenazi. A lot of them are darker too, like Jeff Goldbum or the guy from the Mummy.

Edited February 22, 2018 by janedi

[janedi]

15 hours ago, Bridget said:

THAT is what I couldn't put my finger on. Sephardic background makes total sense. Thank you!

I always assumed Jeanette was Jewish and that Greg was either Jewish too or he converted, but I didn't see a yarmulke on Greg's head (nor on Grandpa Jack) in their original wedding photos. I've never been to a Jewish wedding ceremony, but don't all of the men, even the non-Jewish ones, wear yarmulkes? Or Is that something that occurs only when the two people who are going to be married are both Jewish and practicing/observant? I did some Googling and learned that there are peeps of Sephardic origins in the world who aren't Jewish, so maybe they didn't have their wedding in a church or a temple? I know I'm overthinking it, but it's just one of those things I'm curious about.

When the kids were standing in the background during the vow renewal, it dawned on me that not a single one of them even remotely resembles Jeanette. It's not the first time I've noticed it (none of them are blonde or wear those God awful glasses! haha!), but maybe because they all resemble Greg so strongly, even the girls, that it is part of her deep desire to insert herself into her children's lives more than you average mama bear?  

I know Ari is over it, but would it have killed her to have washed and brushed her hair? Jazz needed to wash her hair too, but to be fair (and extra snarky), Jazz always looks like she needs to wash her hair. Or use some dry shampoo & throw her hair up into a bun. I know she's self-conscious about her ears sticking out, but an oily scalp is not attractive. Ever.

 

Jeanette obviously dyes her hair, Her hair is naturally dark. And all the kids have Jeanette's lips. Griffen looks a lot like her, They say he and Sander are identical, but they don't look the same to me. Sander is cuter and he looks more Greg. Jazz looks more like Greg too, actually she looks more like Sander than Griffen. If she had gone through male puberty, she would have looked like the twin. Ari is a good mixture of both parents.

Your comment of Jazz ears just made me realize something else.  I think Jazz is a very cute kid. However her facial features look very large in proportion to her head size. It seems like her nose and ears and mouth don't really fit on her babyish face. I think that is yet another consequence of blocking her puberty. Notice she has the same nose as her brothers. But their faces were allowed to mature, so they grew into their features. Ari's nose is also proportional to her face.

 

15 hours ago, thebigboot said:

“The eight rabbinical scholars interviewed for this article, from institutions like the Jewish Theological Seminary and Yeshiva University, said it’s an urban legend, most likely started because a specific cemetery had a policy against tattoos. Jewish parents and grandparents picked up on it and over time, their distaste for tattoos was presented as scriptural doctrine.”

Also, the rabbinical council ruled in favor of trans people. So yeah, no religious argument on that one. 

 

Which branch of Judaism?? There isn't just one. The Reform branch does not speak for the Orthodox and Conservative branches.

Edited February 22, 2018 by janedi

[Bajovane]

I felt for the twin who said "Jazz gets what Jazz wants" and I don't blame him for being angry about the tattoo.  It is clear that Jazz pretty much does get what she wants because goodness forbid she be "miserable" and contemplate suicide.  That is completely manipulative and Jazz does need to be called out on it.  If Greg was angry at Jeannette about this and the tentative surgery date announcement, then he needs to grow a backbone and demand change.  Wow - I could not believe Jazz's and Jeannette's gall in this episode.  Seriously, it is a miracle her siblings even speak to her at all.   And poor Grandpa Jack.  His reaction to that tattoo was genuine.

I don't see why waiting one year for the surgery would be harmful for Jazz - I know she wants this change but she seems to have the idea that this will solve all of her problems and everything will be so wonderful afterwards.  I would hope her therapist holds out and ensures Jazz receives the type of counseling she needs prior to this. 
 

[Sile]

It seems like they all have Jeannette's nose.

[4N6MAL]

On 2/21/2018 at 2:21 AM, janedi said:

Interesting that Gregg is doing a talking head alone, has this happened before?  Jon and kate also started doing individual talking heads before the big split.

I believe the reason for the single TH is to keep the "secret" of the vow renewal. I'm sure it was not kept a secret.

[princelina]

I don't think Jeanette is unattractive, but something about her face invites me to punch her in it, so I assume it's her attitude.  It seems like what Jeanette wants, Jeanette gets.  She wanted a girl after twin boys; she wanted to be on TV and be a spokesperson, etc.  I felt sad seeing that picture of little Jazz in the mermaid costume, while her friend explained that Jazz always had an affinity for mermaids who "have nothing down there."  My friends' kids have various mermaid tails and flippers, and they get played with for about 3 minutes tops because while they seem fun, they constrict your movements and are annoying.  Little Mermaid Jazz drooping on the side of the pool made me wonder how long she had to sit there while the other kids played and had fun.  I can't think that's an athletic kid's idea of a good time.  I suspect that if Ari was a low maintenance hippie chick, what Jeanette wants now (IMO she has shown this on the show) is a popular girly daughter with boyfriends; looks like Jeanette might have to do without this time.

[Bridget]

10 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

I'm sure Jeanette is a natural brunette. That's an obvious terrible brassy blonde dye job she's been sporting for 20+ years. 

You're right. I'm pretty observant by nature, but I am the first one to admit that I am awful at recognizing hair dye jobs gone bad.

However, I have definitely noticed her dark roots, but have been long distracted by those hideous glasses, horrendous taste in fashion and so much visible skin damage from the baking in the sun. I know she probably didn't know about the sun when she was young, but why bring attention to her wrinkly neck and decolletage on national TV by wearing low cut tops and large necklaces? 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Bridget

[Bridget]

8 hours ago, woodscommaelle said:

I don't mind tattoos. I'm Jewish, I have one.  I'll be buried in a Jewish cemetery no problem.

However, the shape of that mermaid was fucking terrible. It was like she had no body; just too skinny.  No good.  I did like the colors though.

Someone mentioned it will fade bc it was a water color style.  Is that true? 

@rwlevin mentioned the watercolor not lasting. 

From what I've learned on Ink Master, water color does fade easily. I know that many people get their tattoos touched up, depending on the original application and technique.

I know someone who has black & gray sleeves on both arms, but he has lots of smaller tattoos (phrases, symbols, images, a mini-portrait) on his arms instead of one big piece. He gets the lettering or certain outlines touched up every other year to prevent them from fading and well as to keep them legible and easy to read.

Jazz's tattoo is so horrible! No words.

I still can't believe she chose such an ugly design and that she chose to place it in a stupid spot. It's not even covered up by t-shirt sleeves or the sleeves of the (too tight) dress she wore.

(Anyone else wonder if she accidentally chose the same spot and same arm for her tattoo where her hormone blocker implant is? I did!) I couldn't remember which arm has the blocker, so I am hoping it's the right arm and she didn't screw that up!

[vsd78]

On 2/21/2018 at 11:56 AM, calpurnia99 said:

 I bet Big Fat Fabulous Life her parents have one next.  

They just did on this week's episode, lol. On a Hawaii trip, which I understand is another common TLC trope.

[princelina]

1 hour ago, vsd78 said:

They just did on this week's episode, lol. On a Hawaii trip, which I understand is another common TLC trope.

Didn't they also do it a year or 2 ago when Whitney was cake-tasting?

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Jazzers,

Sing along with us!

Here we are at the end of the rainbow* and there's something we must say out loud . . .

We are not, not, not playing a game

of comparing Jazz to a boy

Oh we are not, not, not going to continue

down a path that is so out of line.

*season

What does this Lionel Ritchie tribute speak to?  We are not speculating as to how cute Jazz would look if she was a boy because she is now, has been and shall be a girl. 

Now back to your regular snarking!

Your kitty Mod @PrincessPurrsALot and your snack cracker Mod @17wheatthins  

[SDVegas]

1 hour ago, vsd78 said:

They just did on this week's episode, lol. On a Hawaii trip, which I understand is another common TLC trope.

They didn't do a vow renewal this year on MBFFL; just an anniversary trip to Hawaii.

[Bobby88]

4 hours ago, princelina said:

I don't think Jeanette is unattractive, but something about her face invites me to punch her in it, so I assume it's her attitude.  It seems like what Jeanette wants, Jeanette gets.  She wanted a girl after twin boys; she wanted to be on TV and be a spokesperson, etc.  I felt sad seeing that picture of little Jazz in the mermaid costume, while her friend explained that Jazz always had an affinity for mermaids who "have nothing down there."  My friends' kids have various mermaid tails and flippers, and they get played with for about 3 minutes tops because while they seem fun, they constrict your movements and are annoying.  Little Mermaid Jazz drooping on the side of the pool made me wonder how long she had to sit there while the other kids played and had fun.  I can't think that's an athletic kid's idea of a good time.  I suspect that if Ari was a low maintenance hippie chick, what Jeanette wants now (IMO she has shown this on the show) is a popular girly daughter with boyfriends; looks like Jeanette might have to do without this time.

You touched on something that I think I've mentioned before, but I'm not sure a lot of others have. Has anyone noticed all the anecdotes about Jazz's early years, such as the infamous story about the good fairy changing her penis into a vagina (anybody else think that that never actually happened?), all come from Jeanette? Granted, as a stay-at-home mom while Greg worked, she would have spent a lot more time with the children. But she is literally the only one who recounts these type of things. It makes me wonder how many of those stories are true and how many were made up by Jeanette after the fact to bolster credibility.

I don't know. It just seems like there's a lot of stuff with Jazz's story that sounds off, to say the least.

[Visaman666]

OK, here is a timeline.

Hurricane Irma hit Florida on September 10-11.

Jazz's birthday was on October 06. 

So,  all the activity and events on the series (8 episodes) happend in a 3 and a half week window?

That would be 8 episodes over 26 days, or one episode every 3 days. So, they helped a family in tbe Florida Keyes, flew to New York, came back went on two dates and two sessions of Hypnosis, and then did the whole marriage vows thing on three weeks? I think I  was in bed for most of those three weeks.

[vsd78]

4 hours ago, SDVegas said:

They didn't do a vow renewal this year on MBFFL; just an anniversary trip to Hawaii.

 

5 hours ago, princelina said:

Didn't they also do it a year or 2 ago when Whitney was cake-tasting?

My bad - I saw parts of the episode, not the whole thing, and I thought heard something about there having been a vow renewal. 

Edited February 23, 2018 by vsd78
Bad grammar the first time around

[yankeefan]

6 hours ago, Visaman666 said:

OK, here is a timeline.

Hurricane Irma hit Florida on September 10-11.

Jazz's birthday was on October 06. 

So,  all the activity and events on the series (8 episodes) happend in a 3 and a half week window?

That would be 8 episodes over 26 days, or one episode every 3 days. So, they helped a family in tbe Florida Keyes, flew to New York, came back went on two dates and two sessions of Hypnosis, and then did the whole marriage vows thing on three weeks? I think I  was in bed for most of those three weeks.

Is it possible the episodes were shown out of sequence?  After a period of yo-yo dieting, Jazz says she's down 10 pounds.  When trying to lose weight, 1 1/2  - 2 pounds a week is considered a healthy rate.  Even if she lost a lot of water weight in the first week, 10 pounds in three weeks is a lot.  Or Jazz is lying about her weight loss.

[Maricopa]

Regarding the online school issue, I ran into a friend yesterday whose 15-y-o cis-girl-daughter (now ID-ing male) is insisting on online school. But the kid won't sign up and hasn't attended regular school in two months. The parents are divorced and the kid (currently/recently living with Dad) appears to be using this as a manipulation tool. CPS is now investigating the mother -- and I assume later on, the father -- and she's at the end of her rope as she can't figure out how to get the kid in school. She could actually go to jail and the kid knows it. It's diabolical and creepy. Far as  I can tell, she's an excellent parent (has three older healthy, well-behaved and directed offspring). 

Jazz seems to have some very positive friendships, and the socialization of regular old school would keep that going. What is behind her desire to do online school? She genuinely enjoys her circle of friends and would be somewhat more isolated.

[Bridget]

3 hours ago, Maricopa said:

Regarding the online school issue, I ran into a friend yesterday whose 15-y-o cis-girl-daughter (now ID-ing male) is insisting on online school. But the kid won't sign up and hasn't attended regular school in two months. The parents are divorced and the kid (currently/recently living with Dad) appears to be using this as a manipulation tool. CPS is now investigating the mother -- and I assume later on, the father -- and she's at the end of her rope as she can't figure out how to get the kid in school. She could actually go to jail and the kid knows it. It's diabolical and creepy. Far as  I can tell, she's an excellent parent (has three older healthy, well-behaved and directed offspring). 

Jazz seems to have some very positive friendships, and the socialization of regular old school would keep that going. What is behind her desire to do online school? She genuinely enjoys her circle of friends and would be somewhat more isolated.

Depending on the online school program, there can be a waiting list, but that doesn't meant the student shouldn't be attending regular school while waiting for a spot to open up in the virtual school program. 

For what it's worth, your friend can always phone the local police department/sheriff office and tell them her minor aged child refuses to attend school. Law enforcement officers will gladly pick the student up and take them to school. Zero handcuffs, zero judgement against the parent, no tickets are written, no fees, no punishment. Everyone wants the same thing: to get the student to school. Sadly, it's a common thing lately and as it falls under the law, parents do have a resource by having the LEOs take their kids to school, but they don't know about it. 

I've seen squad cars drop off students many times. The student who is dropped off is usually running late for school by the time the parent(s) phone the local LEOs. When the student is dropped off, there isn't an audience of peers standing around, which takes away a lot of the potential embarrassment for the student. It happens a lot more often than people think; in fact, the attendance clerk where I work suggests it to the parents that call in and say "I can't make my kid go to school."  She is a single mom herself and has never had an issue with her son, but she was sick and tired of listening to parents (especially single moms) complain that their kids call the shots, so she says what many of us wish we could say.

If your friend calls law enforcement to update them on the situation, that's better than nothing. She can inform them that student lives with dad and isn't attending school. This way, it's documented that mom called, and dad is the one keeping the student away from school, thereby breaking the law by not requiring student to attend school. Sounds like attendance has been an issue and there's a SARB contract in effect, which means if student doesn't attend school, parent(s) WILL go to jail. Jail is often a last resort to be honest. Fees/fines are usually paid before anyone serves any time in jail.

[CousinAmy]

1 hour ago, Bridget said:

Depending on the online school program, there can be a waiting list, but that doesn't meant the student shouldn't be attending regular school while waiting for a spot to open up in the virtual school program. 

For what it's worth, your friend can always phone the local police department/sheriff office and tell them her minor aged child refuses to attend school. Law enforcement officers will gladly pick the student up and take them to school. Zero handcuffs, zero judgement against the parent, no tickets are written, no fees, no punishment. Everyone wants the same thing: to get the student to school. Sadly, it's a common thing lately and as it falls under the law, parents do have a resource by having the LEOs take their kids to school, but they don't know about it. 

I've seen squad cars drop off students many times. The student who is dropped off is usually running late for school by the time the parent(s) phone the local LEOs. When the student is dropped off, there isn't an audience of peers standing around, which takes away a lot of the potential embarrassment for the student. It happens a lot more often than people think; in fact, the attendance clerk where I work suggests it to the parents that call in and say "I can't make my kid go to school."  She is a single mom herself and has never had an issue with her son, but she was sick and tired of listening to parents (especially single moms) complain that their kids call the shots, so she says what many of us wish we could say.

If your friend calls law enforcement to update them on the situation, that's better than nothing. She can inform them that student lives with dad and isn't attending school. This way, it's documented that mom called, and dad is the one keeping the student away from school, thereby breaking the law by not requiring student to attend school. Sounds like attendance has been an issue and there's a SARB contract in effect, which means if student doesn't attend school, parent(s) WILL go to jail. Jail is often a last resort to be honest. Fees/fines are usually paid before anyone serves any time in jail.

Why would there be a waiting list for an online school? Isn't it basically sitting in front of a computer? Or is there a one-on-one relationship with a teacher?

[Maricopa]

Bridget, thanks. I will pass that info along to her.

[JocelynCavanaugh]

15 minutes ago, CousinAmy said:

Why would there be a waiting list for an online school? Isn't it basically sitting in front of a computer? Or is there a one-on-one relationship with a teacher?

Hopefully the class sizes are limited. I don’t teach K-12 but in my online classes, there is a huge difference in workload between a class of 6 vs. 36. If the teachers are giving any decent amount of feedback and grading written or creative work, the quality of education would definitely suffer if they let everyone in. 

[princelina]

11 hours ago, Maricopa said:

Jazz seems to have some very positive friendships, and the socialization of regular old school would keep that going. What is behind her desire to do online school? She genuinely enjoys her circle of friends and would be somewhat more isolated.

I don't think she has a circle of friends at school - the ones we see her with are, with the exception of the one girl (is her name Jay?), kids she has met at various trans/LGBT events.  At least that's what we are supposed to believe - the other option is that they are hired to play her friends on TV and advance their own agendas.

6 hours ago, CousinAmy said:

Why would there be a waiting list for an online school? Isn't it basically sitting in front of a computer? Or is there a one-on-one relationship with a teacher?

Depends on the online school - but she should have at least one teacher in charge of her to make sure she is on track.  As a high school student that's probably all, but she also should have to pass certain tests to graduate and they can try to keep her on track with that too.  I think kids who don't fit in often think it will be easier - and it is from the standpoint of not having to deal with others.  Also it's a lot quicker - you don't have time spent in electives, lunch, etc.  But if the kid is not self-motivated then it is difficult to keep up with the work.

[gingerella]

My guess is the kids at her school are over her one-note topic in every single conversation. I would imagine that most kids I high school aren't interested in playing into The Jazz Show. Who knows? Maybe she tried pushing her agenda on everyone at school and it didn't go over well. It's all in h delivery, you know? And Jazz is like a bull in a  china shop, she only knows how to talk AT people and I'm guessing her peers are over it after all these years. Maybe if she was encouraged by her parents, to engage in sports, arts or other activities, she would have some friends at school.

[bichonblitz]

On 2/21/2018 at 2:21 AM, janedi said:

So Jeanette signed the consent form without Gregg's permission. surprise surpise.  He specifically told her he wanted to talk with Jazz before agreeing. But once again Jeanette heard what she wanted to hear.

 

On 2/21/2018 at 2:21 AM, janedi said:

Of course Jeanette made a surgery date without Greg.

What Jeanette did was unconscionable.  It's a shame, they just had a nice vow renewal, then sit down to eat and Greg is blindsided once again with what Jeanette and Jazz did without his knowledge. It's the first time I have seen him visibly pissed off. He was keeping his anger in check in front of the camera. Somewhere along the line he lost his place in the family and it's sad to see. 

[Bridget]

15 hours ago, princelina said:

I don't think she has a circle of friends at school - the ones we see her with are, with the exception of the one girl (is her name Jay?), kids she has met at various trans/LGBT events.  At least that's what we are supposed to believe - the other option is that they are hired to play her friends on TV and advance their own agendas.

Depends on the online school - but she should have at least one teacher in charge of her to make sure she is on track.  As a high school student that's probably all, but she also should have to pass certain tests to graduate and they can try to keep her on track with that too.  I think kids who don't fit in often think it will be easier - and it is from the standpoint of not having to deal with others.  Also it's a lot quicker - you don't have time spent in electives, lunch, etc.  But if the kid is not self-motivated then it is difficult to keep up with the work.

I noticed there was a mini-montage of Jeanette "teasing" Jazz about how it was time for her to get up and go to her "favorite place", school. (I don't understand why a high school aged person cannot get up without an alarm clock!) Kids pick up on their parents' attitude about things, so when Jeanette was ragging on school, of course that adds to Jazz not wanting to stick it out. It did come to bite her in the arse though, if we are to believe that Jeanette was mad about the idea of Jazz being home alone even more. Maybe Jeanette should have thought about that before she reminded Jazz of her "favorite place." 

Online or virtual schooling can be a lot quicker for the students who make the most out of it, as long as they are self-motivated and have the time to devote themselves to alternative schooling. It wouldn't surprise me if students who are enrolled in virtual school also have tutor(s) to help them understand certain classes or confent. 

There are so many models of non-traditional school, but it truly takes a special kind of student to do really well AND learn things to participate in online school/classes. Regardless of however any non-traditional school/online classes are set up, It isn't something that I would recommend to any student unless they truly were exceptionally bright, are young athletes who have gone professional (such as continual international travel for a surfing competition), work as child actors or are at home and on bed rest due to an illness. The majority of K-12 students need to be in a classroom with a teacher and have explicit instruction, especially with math and science, along with the essential social components. I've taught a section of independent study and never worked so hard on my life, especially when it came to progress (or lack thereof) and cheating. I have no idea how so many virtual schools tackle the academic honesty policy or what kind of students are graduating from these schools. 

The independent study students I taught were in a hybrid program: online work, hard copy assignments and mandatory attendance on campus (in a building for the program) M-F for two hours. Each teacher had 40 students they were meant to supervise. Students were expected to finish and pass one semester long class every three weeks (they'd focus on only one course at a time), including quizzes & exams.  They couldn't earn lower than a C on anything, or else they had to do it all over again. The amount of grading alone that I had to do (anything from grade 9 Biology to grade 11 Physics to grade 12 Economics) was enough to make me want to cry. It was awful. It also had to be thoroughly graded & handed back to provide feedback for the students ASAP. I was so happy to get back into a "real" classroom full time the following year.

I would really love to know why Jazz wanted to leave her school, especially now that she is complaining about it. I wonder how busy she really is when she makes an appearance or is a participant in a panel. I'd think they're not all exclusively done during the day or else the hosting organization would take a major dip in their  listening/viewing/live audience numbers. 

Part of being in school is collaborating with other people in projects, learning to ask for help, participating in class,  volunteering answers, practicing patience and sticking to deadlines; the skills required for everyone to be lifelong learners. No matter what Jazz ends up doing in life, she is missing out on the social skills (empathy, consideration, thoughtfulness), problem solving abilities, use of technology integration, elective classes and critical thinking that take place in school every day and are typically student driven. There's a certain social aspect to being in a classroom that cannot be replicated if one is not there. I still hear students talk about "that time in 7th grade when we..."

 

 

 

[riverblue22]

I seem to remember hearing that the surgery was going to be in Boston.  That makes me think the other doctor is the primary surgeon and Dr. Bowers is secondary, even though she made the phone call setting the date.

It's really, really unfortunate that Jazz didn't play high school soccer.  I wonder if it was a matter of not being allowed to play on the girls team.  I don't know how that stuff is handled in high school.  Maybe her parents could have encouraged something that she could participate in like band or theater. 

[biakbiak]

3 hours ago, riverblue22 said:

That makes me think the other doctor is the primary surgeon and Dr. Bowers is secondary

The other doctor was in NYC not Boston.

Greg has mentioned a few times on the show he was fine with a June surgery date, one time when they pulled the oh Jeanneatte might schedule something without him knowing in the NY visit. I like the family but the manufactured storylines are lame.

[kicotan]

They work together.

Jazz's Doctors on staff at same hospital

An excerpt on their bios:

Quote

 

*Surgery*

...Jess Ting, MD
Dr. Ting attended medical school at the Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, where he graduated first in his class, and completed post-graduate training in plastic surgery at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center and Hand Surgery/Microsurgery at the Hospital for Special Surgery. He is Assistant Professor of Surgery at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai and is a board-certified Plastic Surgeon. He specializes in reconstructive microsurgery, gender-confirming breast surgery, and gender reassignment surgery.

*International Teaching Faculty*

Marci Bowers, MD, Professorial Lecturer, Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai
Dr. Bowers, a pelvic and gynecologic surgeon with over 25 years of experience in Women’s Healthcare, is widely recognized as a pioneer in the field of Genital Reassignment Surgery and is the first transgender woman to perform transgender surgery. She is a University of Minnesota Medical School graduate and went on to practice in the Polyclinic and Swedish Medical Center at the University of Washington in Seattle. In 2003, she moved to Trinidad, Colorado to join the practice of the legendary Dr. Stanley Biber, considered the “Father of Transgender Surgery.” In 2010, she relocated to the San Francisco Bay Area and has now performed more than 1,250 primary MTF/FTM gender reassignment surgeries. She is sought after as a speaker and surgical educator worldwide...

 

[kicotan]

5 hours ago, riverblue22 said:

It's really, really unfortunate that Jazz didn't play high school soccer.  I wonder if it was a matter of not being allowed to play on the girls team.  I don't know how that stuff is handled in high school.  Maybe her parents could have encouraged something that she could participate in like band or theater. 

Amen!

I remember it being discussed during a previous season that she enjoyed playing soccer in elementary school, but as she got older she was pushed out due to the boy team/girl team issue.  I think that's a shame.

Speaking of shame, I imagine for Jazz's parents, the idea of encouraging her participation in social activities with groups of non-trans and or LGBTQ youth would open Jazz up to being bullied or ostracized by the group for her other-ness.  Band would have given her an instrument to hide behind, but I think Greg & Jeanette's agenda/parenting style with regards to Jazz wouldn't allow her to have "blend in with the group and go unnoticed" as a goal.

[ItsHelloPattiagain]

Quote

It's really, really unfortunate that Jazz didn't play high school soccer.  I wonder if it was a matter of not being allowed to play on the girls team.  I don't know how that stuff is handled in high school.  Maybe her parents could have encouraged something that she could participate in like band or theater. 

There are school-affiliated teams here in South Florida but there are a lot of private "travel teams" in her area. I don't know what their rules might be but perhaps a private team would be more flexible in terms of her playing. I also wonder if she might have some physical challenges that preclude her from playing due to her hormone therapy or other medications. Oh and the girls who play travel soccer here are warriors - tough as nails (my co-worker has two girls in travel soccer and he has coached before). I'm sure they aren't impressed with Jazz's celebrity at this point and she wouldn't necessarily be the center of attention as she usually is in her own world. 

[momofsquid]

Regarding Jazz's insistence on virtual school, to me it's significant that she's a celebrity whose gender identity and even the status of her genitals are regularly discussed on national television. I'm not at all surprised that regular school has become a problem for her. The show might try to imply that other issues are at play but I'll bet her celebrity status is the primary concern. They don't want to say that because it would break the reality show version of the fourth wall to imply that she's anything but an ordinary citizen. Of course, the best thing would be to get her off TV and let her live something resembling a normal life.

Edited February 25, 2018 by momofsquid
typo

[Dobian]

I felt like Jack did about the tattoo.  Every time I looked at it I had to focus my eyes to make out that it was a mermaid.  For a mermaid I think you would want it to be vertical and in a place like the shoulder.  The fact that it's horizontal and the shape of it makes it hard to discern what it is at first glance.  I found it hard to believe that no one noticed the tattoo until Jazz announced it as her sleeve was not fully covering it and she was standing near everyone through the whole ceremony and after.  I could clearly see it when she was eating her cake.

[MegD]

11 hours ago, riverblue22 said:

It's really, really unfortunate that Jazz didn't play high school soccer.  I wonder if it was a matter of not being allowed to play on the girls team.  I don't know how that stuff is handled in high school.  Maybe her parents could have encouraged something that she could participate in like band or theater. 

Oh, but she did. She won a lawsuit to do so.

Quote

Jazz Jennings, a 14-year-old trans athlete, faced a similar battle for her rights to participate in sports in her home outside of Minnesota, the location of which she and her family will not disclose so as to maintain her safety. Jazz, who was born a boy, ultimately won the right to play sports, and is now a member of her high school’s soccer, tennis, and track teams.

Article here.

Jazz went on to say the following in the article:

Quote

I was very lucky. I’m still in middle school, but since I go to a K-12 school, I’m allowed to play on varsity teams. My parents and I were pleased to find out that our state high school league has a trans-inclusive policy for athletes. However, when I was only 8, I was banned from playing girls’ travel soccer. My family and I had to fight for over two years to gain the right for me to play. It was horrible. I was told I could compete in games with the boys' team, or practice with the girls and sit on the bench for the girls' games. These were very difficult times. I tried playing with the boys, but it was a disaster, it made me feel depressed and I couldn’t enjoy the game I love. I didn’t want to quit soccer, so for the next year I decided to practice with the girls and face the injustice of being forced to sit out the games. I felt like I was being bullied. It was terrible and painful. Finally, when I was 11, the United States Soccer Federation listened and created a trans-inclusive policy for all soccer players of all ages. My family and I celebrated! It was great to be back on the field playing with my friends as the girl that I am.  

So high school athletics weren't unavailable to her. I do wonder though if as she got older, with the increased hormones and missing school for appearances and doctors' appointments, she got cut from the team either because she was no longer as talented as she once was or because she didn't have the time to put into her sports. A lot of coaches will make you ride the pine if you miss practices during the week or if you've missed a certain number of days during the school week, either as a team rule, a school rule, or a division rule. Three sports would also put a huge crunch on when Jazz could film. It would also explain why the "poor Jazz got cut from her school's team" storyline hasn't been trotted out.

[Muffyn]

On ‎2‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 10:51 PM, Visaman666 said:

OK, here is a timeline.

Hurricane Irma hit Florida on September 10-11.

Jazz's birthday was on October 06. 

So,  all the activity and events on the series (8 episodes) happend in a 3 and a half week window?

That would be 8 episodes over 26 days, or one episode every 3 days. So, they helped a family in tbe Florida Keyes, flew to New York, came back went on two dates and two sessions of Hypnosis, and then did the whole marriage vows thing on three weeks? I think I  was in bed for most of those three weeks.

While they don't tend to film any reality show for a really long time, the filming did most likely go longer than that.  We had episodes in which Jazz's weight went up and down by significant amounts during what they were trying to claim was the same few days.  I think they did a lot to piece the footage they had into the chosen storyline and had many reshoots or new scenes added. This show becomes more scripted every year.

The other thing that really throws it off is what they are allowed to focus on.  Early on the Jennings and Jazz's school decided that they would not allow filming there.  So large portions of her life are off limits.  If she is involved in any group activities, the parents of the other kids would have to agree to them being shown.  (A screen full of  blurred people and events not willing to stop at all for production would be a mess). If those events take place at the school or are sponsored through the school, the event cannot be shown.

In her early years, Jazz was said to be very active in school activities.  Per the storyline, she isn't anymore.  I don't know if she was still active in some things or not, if she lost all of her friends or not.  They are trooping out Mikaela like she is a friend rather than someone desperate to extend her 15 minutes.  The show has simply become a weird mess focusing on genitals and forced interactions.  It would be so much more interesting to see the rest of her life and how she really interacts in social interactions that aren't 100% show generated.   

[Maricopa]

20 hours ago, MegD said:

Jazz Jennings, a 14-year-old trans athlete, faced a similar battle for her rights to participate in sports in her home outside of Minnesota, the location of which she and her family will not disclose so as to maintain her safety. Jazz, who was born a boy, ultimately won the right to play sports, and is now a member of her high school’s soccer, tennis, and track teams.

I'm missing something here. Do the Jennings live in MN or FL? It appears MN from the article, but one can find Greg's law practice in FL. Maybe they moved before filming the show?

20 hours ago, MegD said:

So high school athletics weren't unavailable to her. I do wonder though if as she got older, with the increased hormones and missing school for appearances and doctors' appointments, she got cut from the team either because she was no longer as talented as she once was or because she didn't have the time to put into her sports.

And whatever it was, I think if she really loves soccer (and it seems like a win-win to play in terms of socializing, health and fun), there are many co-ed soccer programs around. 

[biakbiak]

4 hours ago, Maricopa said:

I'm missing something here. Do the Jennings live in MN or FL? It appears MN from the article, but one can find Greg's law practice in FL. Maybe they moved before filming the show?

The Jennings have always lived in Fl. That article was talking about a similar case in MN and couldn't interview the people involved in the MN case so iterviewed Jazz.

[Dobian]

On 2/22/2018 at 10:51 PM, Visaman666 said:

OK, here is a timeline.

Hurricane Irma hit Florida on September 10-11.

Jazz's birthday was on October 06. 

So,  all the activity and events on the series (8 episodes) happend in a 3 and a half week window?

That would be 8 episodes over 26 days, or one episode every 3 days. So, they helped a family in tbe Florida Keyes, flew to New York, came back went on two dates and two sessions of Hypnosis, and then did the whole marriage vows thing on three weeks? I think I  was in bed for most of those three weeks.

The other thing that is really off is that Jazz' birthday is supposed to be within a couple of days of her parents's wedding anniversary, but on that t-hirt Greg was wearing it looked like the date was in August (8)?  So then her birthday would be two months after the anniversary and the whole birthday con for the anniversary surprise was just scripted for the show. 

[HulaTallula]

On 2/22/2018 at 2:41 AM, thebigboot said:

“The eight rabbinical scholars interviewed for this article, from institutions like the Jewish Theological Seminary and Yeshiva University, said it’s an urban legend, most likely started because a specific cemetery had a policy against tattoos. Jewish parents and grandparents picked up on it and over time, their distaste for tattoos was presented as scriptural doctrine.”

Also, the rabbinical council ruled in favor of trans people. So yeah, no religious argument on that one. 

This is mixing up two things.

It's forbidden to get a tattoo--this is right in the Torah (somewhere in Leviticus 19). The urban legend is that if you get one, you can't be buried in a Jewish cemetery. You can. Now, of course, do Jewish people get tattoos? yes. just like some of us eat cheeseburgers. It was particularly stigmatized after the Holocaust because they had numbers tattooed on their arms. 

The Conservative RA and the Reform CCAR have both issued statements in favor of trans people. 

[CousinAmy]

On 2/28/2018 at 10:01 PM, HulaTallula said:

This is mixing up two things.

It's forbidden to get a tattoo--this is right in the Torah (somewhere in Leviticus 19). The urban legend is that if you get one, you can't be buried in a Jewish cemetery. You can. Now, of course, do Jewish people get tattoos? yes. just like some of us eat cheeseburgers. It was particularly stigmatized after the Holocaust because they had numbers tattooed on their arms. 

The Conservative RA and the Reform CCAR have both issued statements in favor of trans people. 

I thought the prohibition was against defiling the body - for the same reason that autopsies are not allowed. Cutting into the body - even after death - is frowned upon.

[Fullyfernished82]

Long time reader first time poster but I found Jazz’s tattoo on a lava lamp, same color theme and everything. Thought I’d share! ^_^